Based Camp - Based Camp： Pissing Off Swole Twitter ⧸ Testosterone Declines After Kids

00:00:00.000 Hello, this is Malcolm and Simone. What are we talking about today, Simone?

00:00:06.260 Well, do you remember that time on Twitter where suddenly a bunch of muscular people

00:00:12.400 started sending us pictures of themselves working out in skimpy clothing and also threatening to

00:00:18.880 throw us into lockers? I do remember that time. That was fun. So you may remember from our last

00:00:28.500 post, we were talking about sort of the theory of Twitter. So we hadn't really used Twitter before

00:00:34.320 Elon Musk acquired it just because it wasn't interesting to us. And afterwards, it became

00:00:41.200 sort of this collective, it got more interesting, I'll say that. So we were like, okay, let's give

00:00:49.160 it a shot. It's back in the zeitgeist again. And we really began to sort of learn how to use it.

00:00:57.860 And one of the things was, was to piss people off. I mean, the-

00:01:01.840 Especially communities, not just people.

00:01:03.840 No, not people, communities.

00:01:05.420 Yeah. And specifically communities with people closely identified. So this isn't like

00:01:11.020 model train enthusiasts. This is especially anything that is visually identifiable and part

00:01:17.140 of how people see the core of their personal identities. That seems to be where like you

00:01:23.620 twist the knife. 0.60

00:01:25.280 Yes. And so we decided to, was one of the ones we've done. So often what we do is we try to take

00:01:33.320 what a community thinks of themselves and then subvert it. Like that's the best way to sort of

00:01:38.700 try to engage a community. And one of these hooks was for the quote unquote swole community or the 0.97

00:01:45.560 weightlifting community. Because they're pretty big in the communities that are adjacent to us

00:01:50.620 online spheres. So we did a series of tweets that made a number of points that were sort of designed

00:02:02.860 to invert what they, the way they want to be perceived. So one was pointing out, and this is like

00:02:11.560 well backed by research. You can Google it. I love how people are like, this guy doesn't know what

00:02:15.420 he's talking about. I, I was a, I am a published neuroscientist. I have an exhibit that I worked

00:02:22.680 on still on display at the Smithsonian. I know a lot about the way the human brain works and, and

00:02:27.680 yeah, I actually do know what I'm talking about when it comes to stuff like this. Is that when a

00:02:35.380 person is in a, and we wrote a bestselling book on sexuality and relationships. So those are also tied

00:02:39.600 to this. When a person is in a long-term monogamous relationship, a male specifically, but this also

00:02:46.600 happens in females, their testosterone decreases pretty dramatically. And testosterone is going to 0.98

00:02:52.840 be much higher in individuals who are single and actually highest in individuals in polyamorous

00:02:58.740 relationships. However, since like us, many of the weightlifting community are on the right leaning

00:03:04.480 part of the spectrum. You know, they do aspire to be in long-term monogamous relationships.

00:03:09.500 So I pointed out that alongside a second fact, which is that when you have a child as a male,

00:03:18.020 your testosterone decreases. It's not clear whether this decrease is permanent or temporary only when

00:03:24.840 the child is an infant, but considering that, you know, we are pronatalists and we believe in having

00:03:30.580 lots of kids, you know, I'm going to have an infant in the house, uh, constantly over the next 10 years

00:03:36.140 about. Um, and so, uh, then the question becomes, uh, well, if you are, or so the way I use this

00:03:46.400 information, uh, was to say, well, so if you were in your like late thirties and you are still swole, 0.87

00:03:55.340 it means either you are juicing was artificial source of steroids or IEA, an artificial source 0.59

00:04:03.100 of testosterone, or you are a genetic failure. Um, because they are often trying to present this

00:04:09.700 like, Oh, you know, I'm very desired because of this. I'm extra masculine because of this.

00:04:15.720 So we thought we'd do a little inversion of this. Yeah. But I mean, in other words though, I mean, what,

00:04:19.260 what we were sort of arguing you're looking at is, um, males seem to hormonally have higher levels of

00:04:26.360 testosterone when their bodies are like, Oh, I'm in go big or go home mode. I need to be high risk,

00:04:32.200 high reward. Like until something is telling signaling to my body that I'm in a stable position,

00:04:37.420 that I am safe, that I am doing well in life. I need to take a lot more risks because that's kind

00:04:44.340 of the male strategy. Um, and if you see someone whose body is, is apparently hormonally optimized

00:04:53.220 around taking risks, the, the insinuation is that that body is responding to signals of I'm failing.

00:05:00.540 I'm alone. I am not loved. I am not secure. I am not safe. And I don't feel safe. And I don't have

00:05:06.300 kids. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to take a few steps. So testosterone actually does decrease

00:05:12.080 in individuals when they're not in positions of local dominance in their social hierarchy.

00:05:17.180 Yeah. When they're sort of giving up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unemployed people have lower

00:05:20.200 testosterone. Yeah. So yeah, if you do give up, like if you submit yourself to a system where you

00:05:25.800 are at the bottom of a social hierarchy, your testosterone does go down. So it's not absolutely

00:05:29.620 true what you're saying, but the larger piece of their being that males as a human gender are sort of

00:05:37.060 the disposable gender. And this isn't just like a cultural thing. It is to a large extent, 1.00

00:05:42.080 historically biologically true. You know, one man could have many wives, but there was not an

00:05:47.920 increase in reproductive capacity. If one woman had many male partners. And because of this, 0.77

00:05:55.500 testosterone in males, it causes a lot of negative effects. It's really sort of eating away

00:06:02.920 at your body, the longer you have testosterone. And it does a lot of other things that can cause like

00:06:07.280 shorter lifespans and stuff, you know, causing increased risk taking behavior, stuff like that.

00:06:10.900 But all of those things are useful if you are trying to secure a mate. However, once your body

00:06:17.700 is like, oh, you are no longer disposable to the tribe and to your community and to your kids and

00:06:25.140 family, like your genetic line, it does naturally decrease your testosterone levels because that would

00:06:32.220 obviously be the genetically optimal thing to do, you know, for the long run. But yeah,

00:06:38.860 so it is your body's way of saying when you are in these high testosterone states that it thinks it

00:06:44.160 has a chance of succeeding, but it doesn't think you are currently succeeding.

00:06:48.440 Yeah. So anyway, we made that dig. We actually made that dig for a reason. So per our general

00:06:54.000 theory about how ideas spread, especially on Twitter, reasonable ideas ride on waves of hate

00:07:01.900 and anger. So all that was sort of meant to anger a certain group on Twitter. However,

00:07:08.220 the larger purpose of this was to make a comment about where society is, especially vis-a-vis

00:07:16.200 pronatalism, which is a cause that's important to us. So we live in a society that for both men and women

00:07:21.800 idolizes a life stage that really should be only idolized when you are an adolescent. So both men 0.60

00:07:30.580 and women, even in much later stages of life are incentivized to appear physically like a very fertile 1.00

00:07:40.660 adolescent or like 20 something human instead of as like a parent or a mentor or a tribal elder.

00:07:48.600 Um, and so a lot of, I'm just thinking of the ghoulish sort of, you know, trying to look like a 0.54

00:07:54.980 child continue. Well, and you, I mean, you see this a ton, you know, you see this with like a lot of

00:08:00.360 media figures, especially women, like still trying to look like teenage girls, which is, it's not a 0.96

00:08:07.080 great look. So we're, we're trying to comment on the fact that that's happening. And, uh, a comparison

00:08:11.780 that you really made, which I love has to do with a child celebrity. This is another thing that we

00:08:17.780 included in the tweet said that went really well. And it's, I, I, I do really love this comparison

00:08:22.320 and I make it all the time, which is as a person goes through life, you go through sort of multiple

00:08:28.000 puberty like stages, uh, before you go through puberty, people warn you, the things that make

00:08:32.380 you happy are going to change. Your biochemistry is going to change. Uh, the way you relate to your

00:08:36.900 environment is going to change. And we all recognize this, even if we haven't gotten past

00:08:40.940 the teen stage, which I think many people in society haven't because we've kind of been

00:08:44.440 brainwashed, but everyone can remember how much fun it was to imagine and how it's really hard to keep

00:08:50.500 enjoying that. Now, even if you try, even if we like stopped right now and played the floor is lava

00:08:54.660 and maybe had a little bit of fun, it wouldn't be quite the same. Exactly. All right. Sorry. We cut

00:08:59.500 the tape there because we wanted to make a note for a future episode, uh, because it's really

00:09:04.580 important to remember that, uh, you are the descendant and only the descendant of people

00:09:12.360 who went through this change during puberty or mostly people who went through this change during

00:09:17.820 puberty that motivated them to do things that led to them having kids for men. That's often, uh,

00:09:25.380 getting obsessed with sex and sexuality. However, you are also the descendants of men who were

00:09:31.260 successful parents. And that requires a very different set of optimization patterns, desires,

00:09:39.240 everything like that. So the same way that the things that make you happy change the, your sources

00:09:44.780 of, of, of desire change when you go through puberty. Um, the same thing happens again after you have

00:09:49.980 kids because your biology is tooled to do this. Um, and the same thing happens again, when you go

00:09:55.580 through menopause or you enter this elder stage, like after the kids leave your house. Um, and we actually

00:09:59.960 argue in our books often that one of the core reasons that you have so much, uh, you know, 0.59

00:10:04.640 uh, sadness or like middle-aged drama in our society is people are trying to masturbate sort

00:10:10.880 of emotional sets that were relevant in their teenage years, but aren't relevant to parents

00:10:16.100 or, or people in their like thirties or forties or aren't relevant to older adults. Um, in the same

00:10:22.120 way that it'd be very hard for me to get the same amount of happiness my kid does from playing

00:10:26.380 with toy fire trucks. So where does Andrew Tate come into this? Well, it's interesting

00:10:31.060 to us because he is a representation of, uh, sort of an immediately post puberty males iteration

00:10:39.240 of what they think the perfect adult life is like in the same way that Blippi, a children's

00:10:46.160 character, uh, he, um, is similar to like a blues clues sort of guys. I don't know, Scott

00:10:52.100 or whatever from blues clues where he would, uh, dance around, uh, fire trucks or, uh, police

00:10:59.440 cars about how happy he is and pushing the buttons and playing with toys. And as a young

00:11:05.520 kid, you look at this and you're like, this guy has the best life. But as an adult, you

00:11:11.640 see sort of the soullessness in his eyes because you know, no adult is actually enjoying that.

00:11:17.860 Um, and in the same way, you know, as an adult, when you go and you watch these Andrew Tate

00:11:22.280 interviews, you see him being trapped in these scenarios that he doesn't want to be in. Um,

00:11:31.820 uh, for example, uh, I love one interview. He's like, yeah, you know, I need to have sex 0.99

00:11:36.560 with these women multiple times a day. Um, and it's really like a job because if I'm not doing 0.99

00:11:41.960 a good job pleasing them, then they lose loyalty and that loses an income source for me.

00:11:47.200 And you can tell like he was really sort of, uh, beholden to this lifestyle he was not interested

00:11:54.900 in. And I know to a young guy, the idea of having to please multiple women a day to a certain level

00:12:03.420 of satisfactory, that sounds great. That sounds like Robin to an adult man with kids. You're like,

00:12:09.520 oh my God, am I like some, some stud horse? It's, it's, you know, that is not fun. Um,

00:12:17.380 and it's hard to imagine how your biology is going to change before you are genetically successful,

00:12:24.380 before you do have a lot of kids that you are raising with a woman who's dedicated to you. 0.53

00:12:28.900 But I think the whole Twitter thing really revealed to me, especially based on the way

00:12:33.620 people reacted to it. And we have a whole theory around what makes you react to something with

00:12:39.000 offense. In other words, we, you know, if someone accuses you of something completely ridiculous 0.94

00:12:43.260 and preposterous that you don't think could possibly be true, you won't be offended because

00:12:48.480 it's not even close to being true. There's nothing threatening about that statement. Um, but it did

00:12:54.600 seem that, that a lot of weightlifting community members on Twitter were deeply offended by what we

00:12:59.880 said, which implied to us that there was a kernel of truth. And, and to me, I think that that's,

00:13:05.000 you know, it's more than just Andrew Tate, like, you know, exemplifying people chasing after this

00:13:09.260 unsustainable, um, or I'd love to go with this thread, but to wrap up the previous thread, um,

00:13:17.160 the reason why it's important for us to disintermediate this and the reason why we're

00:13:21.380 interested in disintermediating, isn't it just for pronatalism? Um, well, it is partially for

00:13:26.000 pronatalism, but the idea, uh, that we are selling to young people that they will be satisfied

00:13:32.660 living the ideal life of a 20 something when they're in their thirties and forties. And that's

00:13:36.920 the life they often plan for and make costly sacrifices around won't actually make them

00:13:43.180 satisfied as an adult. Um, and it will actually be deeply unsatisfying as an adult. Um, and, and you

00:13:50.280 are biologically optimized in the same way your ancestors were to sort of go through this cycle

00:13:54.040 of having kids and everything like that. And, um, when you optimize around figures like Andrew Tate,

00:14:01.020 uh, it will lead to deep systemic unhappiness and, and sort of desperate behavior patterns as you get

00:14:08.420 older. Well, but also it's, it's worse than that, Malcolm, because then, okay, let's say that you make

00:14:13.180 lifelong decisions around this as, as a younger person, that's really damaging. But then think about

00:14:18.240 the, the years of dissatisfaction you're going to have as an adult. And then an older adult,

00:14:22.300 as you continue to try to chase after a standard that becomes increasingly difficult to obtain.

00:14:29.380 Like we had even people like DM us that were friends who were saying, Oh, well, I've had kids,

00:14:36.340 but I still lift. Like I can, you know, I'm still swole. Like I, you know, people saying things like

00:14:41.120 that. And yes, they, you can absolutely do that. You can, you can look jacked as long as you want in

00:14:46.580 life, you know, without steroids or with steroids, like either way that you can do it, it becomes

00:14:51.180 increasingly harder. And I think the same exists for women, women, you know, will have, you know, 0.61

00:14:56.300 they'll get older, whether or not they have kids, their body will change. And it becomes increasingly

00:15:00.920 harder to continue to look like an adolescent female. And after a point, you stop really pulling

00:15:07.380 it off. And no matter how many cosmetic surgeries you get, even if you really are like top of the line

00:15:13.520 cosmetic surgery, everything is perfect. You age really well. You're still never going to be able

00:15:19.260 to compete with a, you know, a 23 year old woman. If you're, if you're a middle-aged woman and as a 1.00

00:15:25.760 man, you're not going to be able to compete with a teenage boy in terms of being able to maintain a

00:15:31.340 high level of metabolism, to be able to, you know, bounce back from hangovers as much, to be able to

00:15:35.500 build muscles easily. And so I think the other thing that's really important is that people are setting

00:15:40.580 themselves up, not just for dissatisfaction, not like, oh, this isn't giving me all the joy it

00:15:45.240 could, but like for active cognitive dissonance and for like a losing game. And I think that's a huge

00:15:51.100 deal. I couldn't agree with you more. Now to the other point, you're talking about offense, because

00:15:54.860 I do want to, I just thought that that was an interesting, a point I really wanted to make before

00:15:58.180 we moved on from this topic. So let's talk about offense. So if, no, we might have a kid sneaking

00:16:06.780 on, on frame here in a second. When I was, uh, uh, when we went viral, uh, for this whole elite

00:16:13.680 couple thing. Yeah. What's up? You want to, you want to hop in here and say hi to people here?

00:16:19.580 They saw you when you were just a baby. What are you doing? Are you home? No, you don't. Well,

00:16:29.160 can you go back up to Dada's room? You can't because you want to see me. You are so sweet.

00:16:38.060 Okay. Offense as a concept. Now let's touch on that. When we were sort of going viral as this

00:16:45.880 elite couple thing, one of the people, a guy who has a lot of followers, he's like, uh, don't you

00:16:52.020 know that this couple isn't real? They're, they're models. Uh, this is not like, this is what the 0.76

00:16:58.400 pro natalist movement wants you to believe that they look like. And it's followers were like, no, no,

00:17:06.180 no. Like I did some investigation. Like I understand why you could think that, or they do look like

00:17:11.020 models, but they're not models. And by this, what I mean is from third parties, third parties that

00:17:18.140 don't like us and want to make fun of our movement, they say we look like models. So

00:17:23.080 when people attack us for being unattractive, I know like objectively, it doesn't really hurt my 0.82

00:17:28.720 feelings when they're like, oh, you're ugly or weird or freakish looking. I'm like, well,

00:17:33.160 I don't think so. Oh, you're making sure everyone can see the show that you're watching.

00:17:42.380 Well now, Malcolm. Hold on. Hold on. Let's, let's continue to go down.

00:17:48.120 This, this chain here. Um, but in, in, in addition, if somebody were to say something

00:17:53.460 that was just patently untrue, like if they were to say, Simone, you're fat or Malcolm, 0.97

00:17:56.940 you're fat. I'd be like, that doesn't cause me offense. Or they're to say something that I 0.96

00:18:00.620 already accept about myself. Like Malcolm, you are not swole. A lot of people were like,

00:18:04.960 you are not swole. You, you don't even lift bro. Like you don't, I doubt you could lift X.

00:18:10.880 And it's like, well, yes, I accept that about myself. That is not a dominant hierarchy. I'm willing to,

00:18:16.660 I'm looking to climb. So that doesn't cause offense in me. Um, and so the way that you cause a type of

00:18:24.980 offense that causes people to pick up on something is you have to say something that, uh, a person

00:18:31.880 doesn't want to be true and doesn't accept is true, but is plausibly true. Even from their own

00:18:37.900 perspective, you have to credibly challenge their worldview. And you were going to say something,

00:18:43.500 Simone? Oh, well, I thought you were actually going to, I, you probably want to say what would

00:18:49.100 actually really offend. Ah, so, well, this is where it got interesting. So, uh, this community did

00:18:55.780 something that was really bizarre to me, which was, um, yeah. Uh, when they were upset with us,

00:19:06.720 um, they would try to like hurt our feelings by either saying stuff that just obviously wouldn't

00:19:14.220 offend us because either we know it's not true or we accept it about ourselves or by sending us

00:19:19.240 pictures of like them weightlifting. Oh yeah. It's my Coke. Um, yeah, it does need to be recycled,

00:19:29.720 but you see there's still coconut. So they would do things like send us videos of themselves working

00:19:34.380 out or looking really swole as a way to, I think, attempt to like attack us or show that they were 0.86

00:19:40.100 higher in a status hierarchy than us. And they would often, when they were attacking us, be like,

00:19:43.780 I doubt you even lift, or I doubt you can even lift X, which is really fascinating because this

00:19:49.260 sort of swole community is part of a status hierarchy where you can sort of immediately judge

00:19:55.300 somebody's status relevant relative to yourself based on how much muscle they have. Um, but we are not

00:20:01.880 part of that status hierarchy. Like we have no interest in that. And mainstream society

00:20:05.200 largely doesn't have an interest in it either. Uh, and so it's very odd. It would be like,

00:20:10.200 if you made fun of Goss and then a bunch of Goss sent you stuff, like, I doubt you've even listened

00:20:14.160 to a cradle of filth. Um, or like, I, I, I have this test of Goss trivia for you, or like, I doubt you

00:20:22.020 even have X pierced. And it's like, yes, I'm, I'm not a Goss. So it was a very odd thing.

00:20:28.000 And so I was like, you know, I should, I could really school them on how to hurt somebody's

00:20:31.240 feelings. Um, and I told her a tweet we could do it. She's like, Malcolm, no, you can't do that.

00:20:37.400 That is actually too mean of a tweet. Um, and so it's to say, I am really understanding the

00:20:45.240 weightlifting community and genuinely I am like, I used to follow swell hate. I understand it's a

00:20:49.140 community that's unfairly maligned. Like we really shouldn't have been making fun of them. It's,

00:20:53.340 it's got a wholesome side to it. Um, and a lot of the people in it are in this wholesome side,

00:20:58.320 you know, the, the, the bad guys in it are the minority. Um, and it is really the only option

00:21:04.780 for a lot of people. So if you are a guy as some guys are, and you are born short and there's not

00:21:10.420 a lot you can do about that, or you're born not very smart and there's not a lot you can do about

00:21:14.820 that. Uh, the way you can raise your status and have total control over is weightlifting.

00:21:20.820 Um, and this is why I think you often see weightlifting combined with get rich quick

00:21:25.280 scenes as well. Um, in terms of communities that are adjacent to each other, uh, you know,

00:21:30.060 this sort of like hustle culture guy stuff, it's because, you know, they're trying to raise their

00:21:33.560 status, uh, guys who hear these pitches of like, we can help you improve. Um, you know,

00:21:40.080 obviously one of those pitches, these sort of get rich quick guys, like, Oh, you got to read a hundred

00:21:43.440 books and then do this and then do this and then drop shipping. But the truth is, is only one or

00:21:48.060 two percent of guys who subscribe to these sort of gurus actually do end up making any money. Most

00:21:52.600 of them are just hemorrhaging money. What's interesting about the weightlifting community

00:21:55.800 is the vast majority of people who actually follow through and put in the effort do gain muscle

00:22:00.380 and do raise in status within that community and have some moderate augmentation of status

00:22:06.060 within the wider world. Um, and something we note here, you know, like when we talk about

00:22:11.800 attacking a person's, the reason why that hurts people is because it's partially true. They know 0.86

00:22:15.920 that that's the reason they're doing this is the way they can improve themselves that they actually

00:22:19.480 have control over. And I don't want to belittle the amount of work that goes into it only to say

00:22:25.000 that I would always recommend, especially, uh, you know, as you become older as a man to stop

00:22:29.920 optimizing over this use definition of masculine perfection and focus on other forms of, uh, self

00:22:37.300 improvement that might contribute to the world more or contribute to sort of your cultural faction

00:22:42.480 or contribute to aspects of your family more. And, or when you want to insult someone, you need to try

00:22:49.280 to model them as effectively as you can model their values and their aspirations. Um, and then

00:22:55.080 attempt to attack that because that is the only way that you will actually offend them, um, which

00:23:00.480 actually dovetails with our theory of anger. So if you want to anger someone, don't treat them in

00:23:05.340 accordance with how they expect to be treated. That's your theory on anger, Malcolm. Whereas

00:23:09.080 offending someone means pointing out something about their worldview that kind of questions a

00:23:14.280 fundamental underpinning in a way that's very scary. The core thing that causes anger, we argue

00:23:18.500 in our books, um, is when somebody or the world, uh, doesn't react to you or something you have done

00:23:27.980 in the way that you expect them to. Um, so this can be, you've turned your car keys, you expect your car to

00:23:35.040 turn on and it doesn't turn on and you do it a few times and you become increasingly angry. Um, but it

00:23:39.920 could also be somebody doesn't engage you properly. And so this can be a big problem when you have

00:23:44.060 cultural misalignment. So like, you see, this was the trans community, right? Like they expect to be 1.00

00:23:49.280 gendered one way and then somebody doesn't gender them one way. And that causes anger. Um, uh, whereas 1.00

00:23:55.120 the other community doesn't think that other people should be able to tell them how they gender them.

00:23:59.380 And so when they are corrected and how they gender somebody that causes anger. And so you have this

00:24:04.500 anger spiral. Um, and you see this in a lot of communities. Uh, and that is a, a problem. Uh, and it's

00:24:12.340 also a problem in relationships as well. Uh, when there is a misaligned expectations of how each of the

00:24:18.060 couples, uh, should engage with each other. Yeah. So wise words on Twitter, courtesy of Malcolm with help from

00:24:28.300 Octavian, our wonderful little blonde. Do you want to say bye? You can cut and then you can have him

00:24:33.960 come say in and say bye. Okay. You want to say bye? Bye. And you like. Thanks Octavian.

00:24:41.540 Mama and Dada and their friends on, on camera. I will be too. Is there anything that you want to say

00:24:50.200 to the world, Octavian? I will be the good kid. You will be the good kid? You will be the good kid. Good.

00:24:58.100 Do you promise our, our, our fans on YouTube that you'll be a good kid?

00:25:05.520 Silence. You're not, you're not sure? We love you Octavian. We love you.

00:25:10.760 I love you too.

00:25:13.320 You say to the fans, I love you too. I love you too daddy.

00:25:17.820 Oh, you're a sweetheart.

00:25:21.180 Bye.

00:25:21.580 Bye.

00:25:21.680 Bye.

00:25:21.760 Bye.

00:25:21.840 Bye.

00:25:21.860 Bye.

00:25:21.880 Bye.

00:25:21.920 Bye.

00:25:22.380 Bye.

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Based Camp - May 08, 2023

Based Camp： Pissing Off Swole Twitter ⧸ Testosterone Declines After Kids

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