Based Camp： Spoonies, Female Puberty, and Are Women Doomed
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Summary
In this episode, we talk about a mind virus that's been spreading among young girls, and why we think it's a big deal. We also talk about the Spoonies Movement, a movement that started in response to a piece written by Susie Weiss called Hurts So Good About The Spoonies about the spread of this mind virus.
Transcript
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Hello, this is Malcolm and Simone again with Octavian at this time because he's home from
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school today. And we are excited to be talking to you. What's the topic today, Simone?
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Actually, this a lot has to do with our kids, but not Octavian. It has to do with our daughters.
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I'm asking, are women doomed? Yeah. We're actually kind of concerned about our daughters
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raising them. And ever since one autumn day last year, as we were driving to a friend's wedding
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in Texas, reading a really amazing piece by Susie Weiss called Hurts So Good about the Spoonies
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movement. We've been talking a lot about young women, how they experience puberty differently,
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how they experience the world differently, and how we could raise our own daughters in a way where
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they don't face plant in the face of modernity, which is...
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So let's talk about this Spoonies piece because I found it really, really fascinating.
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It's this sort of mind virus that's been spreading among young girls. And we've seen mind viruses like
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it's spread before. So can you describe it a bit? Yeah. So in her piece, Susie Weiss describes the
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plight of a couple of young women that she profiles who start off basically experiencing some kind of
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very difficult to diagnose condition, turning to social media for comfort, solace, and company as they
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suffer with this position, and then kind of are incentivized by social media and by the other infirm
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people that they follow and socialize and are kind of positioning themselves with. They get motivated
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essentially to get sicker and sicker. And so they sort of, it's like a modern wave of hypochondria
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that often is founded in and inspired by real and serious conditions that just end up getting
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blown out of proportion. And I want to emphasize that like the suffering that these people in this
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movement have, we don't think by any means is it not real? I mean, one, I think many of their
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foundational conditions are real. Like maybe it starts with long COVID. Maybe it starts with
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fibromyalgia. Maybe it starts with an autoimmune disorder.
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Well, but I mean, but it maybe starts with COVID then.
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Actually, let's get side and talk about the studies on long COVID because I find that really
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Okay, let's dive into it. Yeah. I mean, so I guess one thing that we found when we read a little bit
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more about long COVID, because we were both very concerned about it and concerned about our kids
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getting it, is when we looked into the research-
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We were not actually concerned about it. We were laughing at people who said they had it, but continue.
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I appreciate the way you present things in the nicest possible life.
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There was a time when we were concerned about it.
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There seems to be a high correlation between issues like anxiety and mental illness and the
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development of long COVID, which is to say that maybe this is a hypochondria thing or people are
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The best study was the one that looked at people who had been diagnosed with COVID and not told that they
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were diagnosed with COVID. Turns out you had zero long COVID symptoms in that group, but lots of
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long COVID symptoms in the group that was told they had COVID, which to me heavily implies it's
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completely, what's the word here? Anyway, continue with the-
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Well, you could say it's a nocebo, I guess, or that getting COVID, you think you had COVID is a
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nocebo that caused you to have effects that are negative. So yeah. So you were triggered by this
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thing. You start to believe that it causes negative effects. And I think this is also the case with
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long COVID, Malcolm, that very much you are experiencing this. You're experiencing brain fog.
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You're experiencing real pain. It just happens to be real pain, brain fog, et cetera, exhaustion.
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Yeah. That like you have generated because of your beliefs, which I think is really interesting.
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And so the Spoonies movement got its name essentially from this concept of someone in the movement used a
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metaphor around spoons. Like, you know, everyone else has a fairly boundless or unlimited energy.
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You can get out of bed, do whatever it is that you want. You know, you, your cup is full. Whereas
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if you are suffering from one of these chronic illnesses, you only have energy in tiny allotments
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and spoonfuls. You only have three or four spoonfuls of energy. So maybe you spent one to get out of bed,
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you spent one to take a shower and you spent one to eat breakfast and now it's, you have one left and
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that's it. And then you can't do anything else. You're in bed for the rest of the day.
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And that was, that was, uh, you know, a comparison used to help people understand, um, how it felt
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to experience these conditions. And that's why they're called Spoonies. Um, so Malcolm, and I read
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this article while in this long car drive and it kind of blew our minds because it really changed the
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way that we looked at, at female adolescents, because most of the people suffering from these
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conditions, most Spoonies are female. Um, there were young females, females around the age of puberty.
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Yeah. Well, it's at least started in puberty and in many cases extended into adulthood. Um,
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and then we also started talking about this more broadly. Um, if for example, you read a lot of
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Regency era novels, there are lots of, um, women, either young or adult women who are hypochondriacs,
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who, you know, sort of retire to their, their rooms and, uh, you know, may have completely imagined
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illnesses. Um, and so I, I also feel like this isn't necessarily just something that young women
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are coming up with now. Um, and so we started talking about, well, why, why are women developing
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these, these chronic illnesses and causing themselves genuine and real pain? Um, thanks Octavian,
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what a cool school bus. Um, why are they developing this real pain when men are not at the same
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proportion? What's going on here? Um, yeah. So I think first let's talk about what is psychologically
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happening with these communities. So it appears that a portion of women, uh, have an innate desire
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because we see this all the way back to the Regency period, uh, with like, what was it like Jane
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Austin books or something? She would complain about this. Uh, she'd be like these women,
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there would be characters who like were clearly making it up. Yeah. Um, and so clearly some women
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have always had a desire to sort of pretend to be sicker than they are, but how does it get so extreme
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in these communities? And it's what you are seeing is a snowball effect in these communities where because
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community identity is based around the thing that differentiates you from mainstream society
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is this infirmity, the social hierarchy of the community is of course going to in part be determined
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by your level of infirmity. In fact, in Susie's article, she talks, she interviews, uh, a young
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woman talking about how she would take pictures of the pills that she took every day. Um, and she would
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pad them a little bit with vitamins to look like she had to take more pills to look more like the extra
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sick young women who had much bigger piles of pills. And it's just insane to think about the envy
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they felt for women who were sicker than them. Yeah. And there were different statuses like the
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courties or something, which meant that you were like connected to a thing all day. And like there was
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aspiration to try to get one of those tubes connected to you or one of the, the, the things.
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So you, you would raise in status within the community by how visibly infirmed you were. And of course,
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if you create a community like that, you are going to exacerbate anyone who has any sort of
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psychosomatic tendency towards illness to begin to build those illnesses and, and compound upon this.
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So again, to, as what Simone said earlier, these people are almost certainly feeling real things,
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but I think another way you can really tell that this community is probably is, is the zebra thing
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that the community is, is, is around, which is doctors always say, if you're here hooves, think
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horses, not zebras, because you know, zebras are rarer. And so they all have the zebras,
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like the community logo, because they're like, I have the rare thing. I have the unique thing. I have
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the special thing, but that feeling of wanting to be special and not understood by adults is something
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that people, men and women understand as they go through puberty. However, women experience puberty
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really uniquely compared to the way they are told they are going to experience it. And I think this is a
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great dissatisfaction. We basically raise women expecting to have male puberty to like get really
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horny. And, and, and of course some women do experience puberty that way, but it is the minority
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of women. So talk about how the average woman experiences puberty. Yeah. So yeah, Malcolm and I
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started talking about this when we read the article, the average woman, I mean, at least from my
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experience, there's a lot of self-hatred. There is a lot of self-doubt. There's a desire to be beautiful
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and desired and precious. Um, and that's really difficult because that requires basically the
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modeling and involvement, uh, and feelings of other people, which you can't control. Um, whereas I
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think, you know, with, with adolescent males, when they experience puberty, that it's a lot of, it's
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more like, you know, who can I hook up with, which it still involves someone else doing something. But I
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think it's, it's, it's a little bit different when part of it's like a feeling, uh, like a, a feeling
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you want people to have about you instead of like, did I literally get someone to bang me? Cause that
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that's a more binary yes or no. Like, did someone bang me? Yes. Am I having sex? Yes or no. Can I get
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sex? Yes or no. Whereas I think for many women, even the most desired, attractive, coveted, precious
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women in any particular social ecosystem may not feel like it's enough. Um, and I feel like that's
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a very dangerous and toxic position to be in as an adolescent female. Um, and I, it's something that
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I think we worry about with our daughters. So I really agree with what you're saying, Simone. And I
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think what we're actually seeing here is while in men, the core desire that sort of elevates during
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puberty is the desire to have sex in women, the core desire that elevates is the desire to be desired
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and cherished. Um, and that is much harder as you say, because it's not a binary thing. It's not
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something you can easily say that this is definitely being fulfilled or any, uh, uh, love or admiration
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I'm getting from my community is genuine affection. And so, you know, even if a girl is popular,
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she can still convince herself, well, I'm not really, uh, desired or cherished enough.
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Or not the right person desires me. For example, like only gross people desire me, not the person
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I want, et cetera. Yes. Yes. And it's a much harder, uh, sort of mental thing to masturbate.
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Um, but what's really interesting when I say masturbate, I don't mean like in a literal sense,
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I mean, just like for, I don't know that like actually, you know, as an, as an adolescent boy,
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like. You can't just masturbate. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking is like, I can't think of something
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that I could do. I guess like I could read romance novels. I guess that's kind of the female equivalent
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of masturbating is inserting yourself into a Mary Jane character and like a romantic manga or like
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historical romance novel or something like that. But I, I don't know. I feel like that's, that's,
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um, yeah, maybe it's moderately effective, but it's not great.
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Yeah, no, I, I agree. Um, and so it is really, when you have a community like this, the message
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that they can appeal to girls with is you will become delicate. You will become something that society
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wants to protect. You will be unique. You will. It's an incredibly appealing message that does,
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I mean, if we're talking about how hard it is to masturbate that this is probably the best way
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you could conceivably masturbate. Well, especially cause yeah, you have to be taken out of school.
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You have to go to doctor's appointments. You have to see specialists. A lot of money is being spent on
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you. Um, and like, it has to be spent on, like, maybe you can't get your parents to like spend a lot
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of money on buying you purses or something, but if they think that you're dying, like they're probably
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going to pay for that CT scan out of pocket, even if they have to. Um, and this is not implying that
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anyone is doing this on purpose again, like this is. No, it's really interesting. I think it's just
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a complete mind virus. It is something where most people involved in the community, even if they might
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be, uh, some bad actors might be elevating the amount that they're actually sick. Most people are
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genuinely suffering. Um, and I think that it cannot be overstated how much if you are psychologically
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motivated to be in a state of suffering, or you believe you're suffering, you will begin to suffer
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in this way. Yeah. And so, I mean, when we talked about this, how do we protect our daughters from
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this? How do we protect them from sort of the, the craziness that comes with guys? You know, I often
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say it's, it's, it's kind of like somebody, uh, snuck up to you in the night when you're going
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through puberty and like injected with you with like a, an addiction to a hard drug and you will
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do stupid and unethical things sometimes in an effort to get that drug do when you're all those
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systems. But you are like, we've talked a video, like male, you're like, it would be great to have
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sex 12 times a day with all different women. And like, as an adult man, you would be like, oh my
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God, that sounds so gross. Um, so you, your brain just does enter this crazy state, but it is a
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controllable state. How, I mean, were you able to control this when you were growing up and how would
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you recommend we may avoid, you know, if you did run into pitfalls, some of those for our own
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daughters? Yeah. Um, so, I mean, I think one of the things that we planned on doing when we first
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discussed this was we are going to discuss this dynamic with our daughters because it's very
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helpful to at least know what you're undergoing. Right. So at least they can say, I'm feeling this
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for probably these evolutionary reasons. And, you know, here are some ways, here are some outlets
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that I can turn to, um, that will help me feel better. And also to maybe recognize problematic
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behavior for what it is rather than giving it fuel. Because the thing that I'm most worried about
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is that anyone we care about, or frankly, anyone at all starts to develop real pain, real symptoms
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because of this, I would much rather have them just feel insufficiently loved, which I think pretty
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much, you know, or coveted or what, you know, desired, whatever it is, because I don't think this is
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something you can satiate as a teen or even as an adult. But when it's like turned up to 11 in the
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same way that was guys, it gets turned up to 11. Yeah, but I'm, yes, and it's so turned up high,
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but I would rather have them just feel that pain, um, and understand that the solution isn't to turn
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to, you know, uh, hypochondria, um, then to just not be aware. So I feel like awareness is a really big
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part of this, but, you know, I also think that to the broader story of like how we raise our
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daughters, I don't think it's just that. I mean, this is a trending issue now in the past few months,
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a lot of discussion and intellectual spheres, um, revolved around how female adolescents
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disproportionately appear to be suffering from a mental health crisis. Like everyone's suffering
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from a mental health crisis. No one's doing well right now, but it seems like those who are doing the
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worst are female adolescents, um, that social media appears to make things worse by some measures.
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Um, obviously I think Spoonies provide one example of how that can be made worse. Maybe it's like
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dominance hierarchies that just make things impossible, impossible standards created by filters.
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Um, however, I do remember you came up with a strategy that I thought was a pretty good way to
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deal with this and to mitigate this in terms of internal family culture. And it's to,
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never respect or elevate somebody for suffering. And this may seem like an obvious thing,
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but in our society today, it's something we do all the time. I mean, this is what people talk about
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when they talk about like the oppression Olympics. We have this narrative in our society, uh, where you
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are higher status. If you are a victim in some way, or if you are suffering or beleaguered in some way,
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when you elevate that, you make you, you create an incentive to, to feel that way about yourself,
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which causes suffering that might not need to be there otherwise. And this is a hard thing to do in a
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family, in a society where this is just predominant, you know, how do you raise kids without, and I
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think the only thing you can do is just constantly repeat to them, you know, in this family, you do not
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earn respect and, and nor should you respect yourself for, uh, needless suffering or beleagueredness or
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being a victim in a situation, just work to get out of that situation and move on to the next thing.
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And I think that that does to some extent mitigate this because I think where you see this the most
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is in families that initially react to the suffering with a level of fuss and with a level of respect and
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special treatment. Hmm. Yeah. So there's this, um, initial reinforcement as well. Like people,
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a lot of these people probably wouldn't be leaning into it if it didn't have some kind of reward loop at
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play. Um, I mean, social media obviously doesn't help because maybe they're, they can just exclusively
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be getting that online. So that also matters, but yeah, I think it's, I think it's really interesting
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that we live in an age where that that's at play. Do you think that there are other dynamics that make
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women uniquely susceptible to poor mental health in the face of modernity and social media?
00:18:44.180
Well, this is really interesting. You know, I don't think a lot of these, um, I mean, I think that
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women optimized biologically for conditions that were even more different from modern conditions
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than the ones that men are optimized for. So in the book, The Fragment Disguided Sexuality,
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one of the things we go into in great detail is what was the actual evolutionary environment of human
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beings. Um, and we think that the evidence points that it was probably pretty similar to chimpanzee
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environments and, and not bonobo environments where you did have frequent raids on, uh, tribes,
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where the males would be killed and the infants would be killed to get the women fertile again as
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quickly as possible. Um, and then the women would be integrated into the new tribe. Uh, and there's a lot
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of things that, that, that suggested this behavior with likely one is, uh, you know, if you look at
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porn statistics for women, uh, they're much more likely than men to be interested in ultra violent
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porn. Um, which would suggest that there was at some point, some sort of selective or evolutionary
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pressure for that, uh, because it is not societally coded. And there is evidence for that. We ran a big
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study to try to find out if like spanking or other things that happened to a person in their childhood
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or things they experienced in terms of the culture they grew up in, uh, affects the frequency with
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certain fetish appearance. And we found almost nothing. There was, there were very few ties.
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Uh, and what that indicated to us is most of this is probably hard coded. Uh, and, and also what
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indicates this is you sort of see it cross-culturally. Um, but, uh, in addition to that, you also have
00:20:22.580
this infanticide instinct. So if you look at children who grow up with step parents in our modern society,
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uh, their death rates are stupidly higher, like they have like 500 or 5,000% higher. Like it's,
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it's like scary higher. Um, and I don't think that people are killing their stepchildren. I just think
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that there is a, a huge lack of care going on there that you would have for your own child.
00:20:46.500
Um, and then in addition to that, uh, you have, um, the earliest sources. So we do know
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our ancestors, you know, before humans, infanticide is practiced in chimps, it's practiced in gorillas.
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So we know where, wherever we split off infanticide was likely sort of an instinctual practice
00:21:03.940
upon these raids. And then we know our earliest historic source, the Bible, or one of the earliest
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really detailed historic sources. Uh, there's a bit, I could find the line, or you could just
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Google it where it's like, you know, when you conquer a city, what you're supposed to do is
00:21:16.820
take the babies and smash them on rocks or throw them off walls. Um, and that's like a weird thing to
00:21:22.420
say. Like nobody's just like casually that evil, unless that was considered a common practice at the
00:21:28.340
time. So we do know at the beginning of the period, at the beginning of human evolution,
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this was a common practice. And we do know at the end of the period, you know, when the Bible was
00:21:34.580
written, this was a common practice. So I'm assuming it was probably a common practice throughout,
00:21:37.940
but you only would need this practice if you were frequently having these raids where all
00:21:41.860
the men were killed and the women were adopted into the new tribe. And then there's further evidence
00:21:46.660
that shows when women switch sides and when men switch sides in games of competition,
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um, which is men typically their bond with their faction increases. The more that faction is losing,
00:22:01.380
whereas women's bond to their faction actually switches to the winning faction.
00:22:07.060
If it looks like their faction is losing, and this would have made perfect evolutionary,
00:22:10.660
uh, uh, uh, reason. So if you're in a tribe that's being raided, if you know that the men are all going to
00:22:16.260
be killed, then you really need to double down. If it looks like they're losing, if you're a man,
00:22:20.180
but if you're a woman, it makes sense to switch sides, potentially. Um, so where this gets,
00:22:30.660
You were saying, and I'm actually really intrigued by this, that the women today are living in...
00:22:36.500
Oh, yes, yes, yes. So today, women don't have this fear of becoming sex slaves,
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or having their tribe all killed, or everyone they know murdered.
00:22:47.700
Well, typically it would be a good thing, but I think that we are, to some extent, so biologically
00:22:53.700
coded, uh, for these earlier tribal structures, um, that especially when women don't have to worry,
00:23:04.340
because if you look at the women that fall into these movements, they're typically middle-class or
00:23:09.380
upper-class women. So they are women that don't really need to worry about any threat in their life.
00:23:14.420
You know, these are women who are not worrying about food security. They're not really worried
00:23:17.940
about being murdered. They are not really worried about anything. And I don't think that their brains
00:23:23.780
are wired to handle that because of the absolutely terrible state that early women lived in.
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So they began to invent threats and fears and reasons to worry because their environment doesn't have them.
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And I, and I actually think that, uh, this is something that the male brain doesn't do
00:23:43.860
quite as readily, uh, when it's in this, this puberty state. Um, and so I think this is another
00:23:50.980
thing is how do you introduce sort of safe hardship to children's lives where it's not
00:23:55.860
genuine hardship that could cause them, you know, irreparable damage or psychological issues,
00:24:00.500
but enough hardship. So they do actually have something to struggle with or worry about on
00:24:06.340
occasion. Cause I think when you just completely remove that, that's when you get this sort of
00:24:10.660
psychological spiral. Yeah. I forgot that that was a major theme that we'd picked up on that. Like
00:24:16.180
these seem to be for the most part, privileged, well-off young women who, yeah, we're not
00:24:21.860
struggling to like take care of other siblings or deal with a difficult householder.
00:24:26.100
Oh yeah. They're much more often single women as well. That was another thing.
00:24:29.780
Yeah. They didn't seem to be in large families very often.
00:24:32.420
Yeah. This didn't seem to be a crowded family environment kind of thing. Um, which is super
00:24:37.060
interesting. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's, that's fascinating. I, and I, you know, it's,
00:24:42.420
it's, it's weird because usually when you and I are talking internally, we're talking about all
00:24:48.180
the advantages that women have to the extent that like, even it would make sense for many people
00:24:54.660
to want to, even if they're not for other reasons, technically trans to transition male to female,
00:25:02.900
because women are honestly like treated nicer in many contexts and, and given, given more advantages
00:25:09.620
in many contexts, because I won't, I mean, one of the communities that we've discovered most recently
00:25:13.780
that we're just really interested in is the trans Mexican community, which is about transition for
00:25:20.740
gain rather than, I'm happy to stop here because I want to do a whole podcast episode. Yeah. So,
00:25:26.180
but anyway, like, so it's, it's interesting, right. That for, for the most part, you see people wanting to
00:25:33.060
go over in droves to the feminine side because of the, the advantages it gets or the care or the
00:25:40.420
attention or the love. Well, that was the initial thing. I mean, now the trans community is, is,
00:25:45.300
is predominantly women transitioning to people transitioning to men. Yeah. No, I mean, maybe
00:25:51.700
that's it. You're on needless offense here. Yeah. Like, but that's interesting. Right. Is, is which,
00:25:59.300
because honestly, I wonder, um, like, is being a female overrated now? Um, and also to a certain
00:26:06.740
extent, if men are becoming women and frankly, they're way better at being women in many cases
00:26:12.980
than women are like, where's my competitive advantage as a biological female. Right. If I'm not
00:26:20.340
as pretty, I wouldn't clarify this. They are all biological females. Uh, as a, as a woman born,
00:26:27.300
of course, we can all agree that trans women have no advantage in sports saying that would get you
00:26:34.660
canceled and it would be a terribly offensive thing to say. So I really don't think that that's
00:26:39.940
what you mean to say, Simone. No, you don't mean to say that. That is not, that is not a fight that we
00:26:48.260
are interested in. It is not a fight. No, it is not a fight. Um, but anyway, it's interesting that people
00:26:55.060
are choosing to change gender for reasons other than, well, this is a trans max community and
00:27:02.900
that's something we'll talk about. Yeah. But I think the larger thesis of what you're talking
00:27:06.260
about here, which I find really interesting is, um, actually, I wish we had said this in the
00:27:14.340
previous video, you know, speaking of the trans community, uh, something that I find really
00:27:18.260
interesting is, you know, we were talking about the swole community and that you see this, this, uh,
00:27:22.660
body dysmorphia on both the far right, the fundamental was how, you know, it can seem like
00:27:34.580
pretty, uh, extreme or expensive or time consuming measures. Um, but what you were saying that,
00:27:40.500
sorry, to the point here, uh, that was an interesting part that I just wanted to get out, uh, is,
00:27:46.260
is it better to be a woman anymore? Um, and I don't know. I mean, I, I think that women are,
00:27:50.900
there was a period where society overcorrected to an extent. Um, but I also feel that despite that,
00:27:58.820
uh, the, the psychological environment for women, if you look at, uh, white progressive women,
00:28:04.980
what is it under 30 over half of them have a mental health issue right now? Um, yeah, not great.
00:28:10.740
You know, that is not a great thing. And we can, I think trivialize mental health issues,
00:28:17.140
but, uh, you know, it's, it's not a fun thing to have like major depression or to have one of these
00:28:23.460
hypochondriac, you know, issues, even if, even if, uh, they're not, you know, even if you quote unquote,
00:28:29.460
brought it upon yourself, you really didn't society brought it upon you. Your parents brought it upon
00:28:33.380
you for raising you in an environment, uh, where you felt the need to experience these things,
00:28:39.380
to rise up within a certain social hierarchy. Well, and so I feel like there are a couple different
00:28:44.580
approaches that, that women are taking, um, if we're going to be broad. And I think what approaches
00:28:51.060
is approach that we're taking and that also roughly I grew up with, which is to, to raise
00:28:59.540
women in a masculine way, basically to raise them the same way that they would raise a boy.
00:29:04.100
And I think that's really how my parents raised me to a great extent. You know, there was no like,
00:29:09.060
and now you're going to put on makeup and this is how you view yourself. And this is how you have to
00:29:12.820
do everything differently from boys and things like never. No, I was basically raised as a boy.
00:29:17.540
And Hey, we, we're giving all of our girls boys names. We're going to basically, they do better
00:29:22.260
in their careers if they have a boy's name. Yeah. And so essentially we're taking that,
00:29:26.340
that strategy, right. As we're saying, you know, you are going to compete in a sphere of men. You're
00:29:30.740
going to compete along masculine standards. And we expect you to do that on the other end of the
00:29:34.660
spectrum. And we have, we have friends who as parents are looking at this approach, they're saying,
00:29:39.460
no, I'm going, you know, women can't win in a mixed landscape. Like if I am going to have
00:29:48.260
my, you know, I'm going to undergo surgery and I get to choose between having a male and a female
00:29:52.900
surgeon, I'm going to choose the male surgeon. I, you know, I, I just don't think that women are
00:29:56.180
going to be as good. And, you know, I want to raise my, my, my daughters to do, you know,
00:30:00.660
to lean in to other skills that they have, um, which is not our family value set, but it is,
00:30:06.180
it's not. And I understand why people would make that. Well, and you also see a lot of
00:30:10.660
even like Gen Z young women that we know. And I, I don't really see this that much with,
00:30:14.980
with millennial women. Well, with some exception exceptions, but I think more and more Gen Z women
00:30:20.900
are going the full trad wife direction of, yeah, I'm going to lean totally into femininity. I'm not
00:30:26.740
going to play in male spheres. I'm going to raise kids. I'm going to be a housewife. I'm going to do
00:30:31.220
feminine pursuits. Um, and I have no disrespect for that at all. And like, maybe it's the right
00:30:36.900
way to go. These are very different strategies though. Um, and I, I wonder which will yield
00:30:43.220
better overall mental health. Like, and it's not that that's what we're optimizing for personally,
00:30:47.860
but you know, if we're talking about this in the context of a mental health crisis,
00:30:51.940
but would you recommend another, another video we have to do is the mental health cult.
00:30:55.300
Oh yeah, totally. I'll make a note of that. And I think this is a good place to wrap up with this
00:31:01.780
one, unless you had something else you wanted to talk about. So basically no conclusion. We have
00:31:05.700
no solution to the female mental health crisis. We, it's not raising girls, masculine. It's not
00:31:11.060
raising girls to be trad wives. We have a few solutions that are like our family's hypothesis on
00:31:15.860
this subject. Yeah. However, um, it's just a hypothesis, you know, at the end of the day,
00:31:22.420
different families are going to try different things and we will get data as time goes on.
00:31:27.300
This is one of the reasons why we created the index from the pragmatist guide to crafting religion.
00:31:31.300
We do measure outcomes from different families, different parenting strategies,
00:31:34.900
because there's just no good database of this. Um, and, uh, everything we can say is only a hypothesis.
00:31:42.420
Well, so to the question, are women doomed? I would say that the modern concept of woman is doomed.
00:31:50.740
I think that we're entering a different kind of world.
00:31:52.980
Well, this idea of women is like this weak or, or needing, you know, care or being overly emotional.
00:31:59.780
You know, I think if we indulge this concept, even if it does have a biological basis, it puts our
00:32:06.500
daughters at a disadvantage. Well, but I also think just the, the, the concept also of the
00:32:12.420
1980s shoulder pads, I can have it all businesswoman is not, um, it's not correct.
00:32:20.420
That that's not, it's not a sustainable ideal or even something that necessarily women want.
00:32:25.620
And that seems to be falling apart. But I also think that a go back to, you know,
00:32:31.140
like taken in hand marriages are like, not the solution really quickly.
00:32:36.340
Uh, it's like consensual non-consent, like, oh, well, like, you know,
00:32:39.540
It's like a consensual non-consent lifestyle that is aesthetically modeled after an abusive 1950s marriage.
00:32:47.540
Right to the moon is the, is the motto of the, uh, consensual, is that taken in hand?
00:32:53.300
Uh, yeah. Like, so I don't, I don't think that that's the solution either, you know, that like,
00:32:57.940
Oh, like I, sometimes I just get slapped around by my masculine husband.
00:33:02.100
So yeah, it's interesting. I think this is a thing to watch and maybe something that we'll
00:33:06.660
talk about in the future. Uh, I really liked chatting with you, Malcolm.