Based Camp - Based Camp： The Academics Who Want to Eradicate All Life from the Universe (Negative-Utilitarian Anti-Natalism)

00:00:00.000 I really get annoyed when people make dumb arguments

00:00:02.300 like pronatalism is racist

00:00:03.480 or pronatalism is anti-environmental.

00:00:05.320 When people make antinatalism for this argument,

00:00:08.480 I'm like, depending on your priors, it may be true.

00:00:12.200 There's antinatalists that I respect.

00:00:14.400 The ones who are like,

00:00:15.440 no, I don't think that we should painlessly kill everyone.

00:00:17.820 I generally think that there really is no

00:00:20.120 good logical way to get to that perspective.

00:00:22.720 The ones who bite the bullet on that

00:00:24.160 and say, yes, we should painlessly kill everyone.

00:00:26.460 I'm like, from my cultural perspective,

00:00:28.900 you are super evil and a threat to my family.

00:00:31.440 But logically consistent.

00:00:32.600 But logically consistent.

00:00:33.900 And I can respect a person who's logically consistent

00:00:36.140 when it causes them to be shamed by society.

00:00:37.960 That's what we do.

00:00:38.800 That's what this channel's all about.

00:00:40.440 So in a way, I really respect

00:00:43.380 that aspect of the antinatalist movement.

00:00:46.320 Would you like to know more?

00:00:49.640 Hello, gorgeous.

00:00:51.000 Hello.

00:00:51.900 I am excited for today's talk.

00:00:54.540 So in the world of pronatalism,

00:00:56.420 there are a lot of dumb reasons

00:00:58.520 that people don't agree with it or argue against it.

00:01:01.720 Some examples are,

00:01:03.460 but the environment.

00:01:05.660 Well, if you selectively remove everyone from the population

00:01:09.900 that cares about the environment,

00:01:12.280 that's going to cause much bigger environmental problems down the line.

00:01:15.680 This is particularly pointed when you consider the fact

00:01:19.080 that if humanity doesn't survive,

00:01:20.960 because many environmentalists will be like,

00:01:22.280 we don't need humans anymore.

00:01:23.600 Look at all the damage they've done.

00:01:24.800 And it's when you get rid of humans,

00:01:27.020 if you get rid of humans,

00:01:29.900 there is no other species on this planet

00:01:31.420 that can colonize other planets.

00:01:33.600 And presumably what you're optimizing for

00:01:35.760 is biodiversity,

00:01:37.220 not biostasis,

00:01:38.600 not maintaining Earth exactly as it was

00:01:40.820 when humans first emerged.

00:01:42.160 And if you're optimizing for biodiversity,

00:01:45.000 intrinsically,

00:01:46.320 whichever species can best see new biomes on other planets

00:01:49.460 is long-term going to increase biodiversity the most

00:01:52.940 because we can develop new biomes

00:01:55.480 that are just as rich as Earth

00:01:56.940 on a thousand different planets.

00:01:58.660 So you lose the entire biology game

00:02:02.800 if humanity goes extinct right now.

00:02:04.880 It doesn't look like there's going to be enough time

00:02:07.140 if humanity goes extinct

00:02:08.080 and you look at the life cycle

00:02:09.060 and how long it took for humans to rise

00:02:10.600 for another intelligent species to rise afterwards

00:02:13.420 and then leave the planet.

00:02:14.780 We're just looking probabilistically.

00:02:16.420 Before the sun expands

00:02:17.980 and kills all life that we know for sure

00:02:20.700 exists in the universe.

00:02:22.100 So kind of humans are stuck with this one,

00:02:24.460 even if they are a bit of a shitty species.

00:02:27.040 I'm not going to argue there.

00:02:28.380 But two,

00:02:28.740 you're also going to have the effects of

00:02:30.140 because the way people vote

00:02:31.840 has a heritable component.

00:02:33.280 This has been shown in lots of studies.

00:02:35.140 If environmentalists specifically don't have kids,

00:02:37.720 that's going to cause people

00:02:38.740 to become less environmentalists over time.

00:02:41.420 And even if you don't believe

00:02:42.740 that any of this has a heritable component,

00:02:46.180 well, still culturally,

00:02:47.160 that means the cultural groups

00:02:48.200 that don't care about the environment

00:02:49.140 are going to out-compete you in the long run.

00:02:50.960 And that the only way you can survive

00:02:52.220 is by converting people

00:02:53.100 out of those cultural groups.

00:02:54.480 Yet long-term studies,

00:02:55.340 as we've mentioned many times,

00:02:56.300 if you look at people like Amish,

00:02:57.760 fewer and fewer people deconvert

00:02:59.200 from the group every year,

00:03:01.220 depending on how long a family's been

00:03:02.720 in the Amish community.

00:03:04.180 Because cultures adapt.

00:03:05.540 If another culture is primarily surviving

00:03:07.780 by taking their members,

00:03:08.900 then they're going to adapt to this over time

00:03:10.820 and eventually become resistant.

00:03:11.920 That's just how evolution works.

00:03:13.440 And evolution works at the cultural level

00:03:14.800 as well as the level of people.

00:03:17.440 People might say,

00:03:18.160 oh, it's racist.

00:03:20.380 Really?

00:03:21.120 Like in the US right now,

00:03:22.840 we are importing people

00:03:24.200 mostly from Latin America.

00:03:25.440 And yet collectively,

00:03:26.760 South America, Central America,

00:03:27.820 and the Caribbean

00:03:28.220 are below repopulation rate.

00:03:30.220 And this was in 2019

00:03:32.440 by the UN's own statistics,

00:03:33.640 which famously inflates this stuff.

00:03:35.600 So we're draining from an evaporating pool.

00:03:39.180 This isn't just a white person problem.

00:03:41.040 In fact, it's not even really

00:03:42.560 a white person problem at all.

00:03:44.500 If you look at prosperous countries,

00:03:47.060 the population groups

00:03:48.060 that are most resistant

00:03:49.660 to fertility collapse

00:03:50.600 are generally white populations,

00:03:53.060 conservative Christians

00:03:53.860 and conservative Jews.

00:03:55.260 The groups that are most affected by it

00:03:57.360 are generally East Asian

00:03:58.780 and South Asian populations

00:04:00.000 or native populations.

00:04:01.520 So small native groups

00:04:02.260 are really affected by it as well.

00:04:03.140 Like in the US,

00:04:03.620 you're looking like Native American groups

00:04:04.660 and stuff like that.

00:04:05.400 So again, it's more like

00:04:06.500 if white people did nothing

00:04:08.080 about demographic collapse right now,

00:04:09.840 they would almost certainly

00:04:10.960 quote unquote win in the long run.

00:04:13.700 As such,

00:04:14.660 if one defines racism

00:04:16.080 as supporting a cause

00:04:17.680 that promotes white interests,

00:04:20.220 then it is actually people

00:04:21.920 who are not raising the flag

00:04:23.980 about pronatalism

00:04:25.520 and population collapse

00:04:26.500 that are taking the racist position

00:04:28.100 because covering this up

00:04:29.820 at the problem

00:04:30.360 disproportionately benefits

00:04:31.840 white groups.

00:04:33.020 So a third argument

00:04:33.920 against pronatalism

00:04:34.900 is that it involves

00:04:36.080 removing women's reproductive rights

00:04:37.760 because many anti-abortion groups

00:04:39.380 are also framing themselves

00:04:40.860 as pronatalist.

00:04:42.580 And people see,

00:04:43.880 for example,

00:04:44.520 the reversal of Roe v. Wade

00:04:46.600 and the removal of options

00:04:48.800 to have abortions

00:04:50.000 in many states

00:04:50.680 as a direct affront to that.

00:04:52.820 And because they connect

00:04:53.800 the anti-abortion stance

00:04:55.500 with pronatalism,

00:04:56.420 they're basically like,

00:04:57.180 oh, pronatalism,

00:04:58.140 therefore no more

00:04:59.880 female reproductive rights.

00:05:01.020 And they also start to

00:05:02.060 turn to themes

00:05:03.100 like A Handmaid's Tale

00:05:04.360 and oh,

00:05:05.100 you're going to force women

00:05:05.940 to have kids.

00:05:06.780 That's the only way,

00:05:08.080 which is super inaccurate.

00:05:10.160 Really,

00:05:10.560 the only thing

00:05:11.520 that you really

00:05:12.940 should be thinking about

00:05:13.860 if you're concerned

00:05:14.660 about a future

00:05:15.340 in which women's rights

00:05:16.340 and reproductive choice

00:05:17.520 are not supported

00:05:18.520 is, oh my gosh,

00:05:20.060 how do we make sure

00:05:20.880 that in the future

00:05:21.760 there are people

00:05:22.680 that exist

00:05:23.660 that support reproductive choice

00:05:25.380 and support feminism?

00:05:26.540 And if all feminist groups

00:05:28.320 and if all groups

00:05:29.380 that support reproductive choice

00:05:30.840 fail to reproduce

00:05:32.420 and pass on their culture

00:05:33.720 and you can't,

00:05:35.400 you can't really sustainably

00:05:37.100 pass on a culture

00:05:37.940 only by converting people

00:05:39.380 over generations.

00:05:40.460 It just doesn't work

00:05:41.860 and we can get into that.

00:05:43.220 You are going to end up

00:05:44.420 without those values supported.

00:05:46.460 So basically,

00:05:47.180 the future of feminism,

00:05:49.160 the future of reproductive rights

00:05:50.940 depends on pronatalism

00:05:52.660 or at least some pronatalism

00:05:53.780 within those groups.

00:05:54.680 More specifically,

00:05:56.100 if it turns out

00:05:57.000 the only way

00:05:57.960 to get people to have kids

00:05:59.080 is to take away their rights

00:06:00.500 or it turns out

00:06:01.280 that nobody finds out a way

00:06:02.560 to get people

00:06:03.000 to voluntarily want to have kids,

00:06:04.840 well then the cultural groups

00:06:05.740 that survive

00:06:06.160 are going to be the ones

00:06:06.780 that take away people's rights.

00:06:07.940 Right.

00:06:08.380 And we're already seeing

00:06:09.700 tendencies towards this

00:06:10.720 in some of China's recent policies.

00:06:12.580 So buckle up

00:06:13.820 because it's going to get worse

00:06:15.380 in a lot of countries

00:06:16.320 that are further along

00:06:17.540 on demographic collapse

00:06:18.740 than we are in the U.S.

00:06:19.760 But the most interesting argument

00:06:23.340 I find,

00:06:23.800 when I'm looking at an argument

00:06:24.840 and I'm like,

00:06:25.440 this is actually

00:06:26.040 a sophisticated argument

00:06:27.300 that makes sense

00:06:28.580 depending on the priors

00:06:29.660 you're coming into

00:06:30.180 the conversation with

00:06:30.940 and depending on your proclivities

00:06:32.520 and your cultural group,

00:06:33.780 that is the David Benatar

00:06:35.680 negative utilitarian argument.

00:06:37.980 And what we really respect about it,

00:06:39.620 I would say,

00:06:40.120 is that it is logically consistent.

00:06:42.700 It makes sense.

00:06:45.060 Whereas we had rebuttals

00:06:45.980 to all the other ones

00:06:46.880 with antinatalist arguments

00:06:48.720 that are well-made,

00:06:50.420 we're just like,

00:06:51.140 yeah, per your framing,

00:06:52.420 per your values,

00:06:53.420 per what you're optimizing for,

00:06:55.180 you are correct

00:06:56.060 in being antinatalist.

00:06:57.620 We'll get into the structure

00:06:58.800 of the argument.

00:06:59.560 We'll start with the weaker aspects

00:07:01.160 of the argument first

00:07:02.080 and then get into

00:07:02.900 the stronger aspects.

00:07:03.800 I don't think we're like

00:07:04.380 strawmanning it

00:07:05.360 because we start with

00:07:06.240 the weakest aspects

00:07:07.280 of the argument,

00:07:07.980 but it's the way

00:07:08.860 it's typically laid out

00:07:09.920 is starting with

00:07:10.480 the weaker aspects

00:07:11.120 of the argument.

00:07:12.500 So one of the really

00:07:13.820 big points

00:07:15.480 antinatalists

00:07:16.460 start with

00:07:17.300 or I see

00:07:18.280 starting with

00:07:19.000 is that life

00:07:20.360 is a net negative.

00:07:21.700 So life is

00:07:22.340 mostly suffering,

00:07:23.780 more suffering

00:07:24.400 than pleasure

00:07:25.360 or neutral experiences.

00:07:27.580 Or at least

00:07:28.640 negative emotions

00:07:29.520 are felt more acutely

00:07:30.820 than positive emotions.

00:07:32.320 And this is

00:07:33.040 an accurate statement

00:07:34.620 that I would,

00:07:36.400 the strong negative emotions

00:07:37.960 I feel like

00:07:38.420 having a finger chopped off,

00:07:39.720 there is no

00:07:40.420 positive emotional

00:07:41.660 equivalent to that.

00:07:42.880 In fact,

00:07:43.260 I would say

00:07:43.600 when people are talking

00:07:44.480 about the biggest

00:07:45.560 positive emotions

00:07:46.380 in their life,

00:07:47.080 like the day

00:07:47.680 I gave birth

00:07:48.180 to my child

00:07:48.740 or my wedding,

00:07:49.800 they're not actually

00:07:50.940 flooded with positive

00:07:51.840 emotions on those days.

00:07:53.200 What they actually mean

00:07:54.300 is more like

00:07:55.040 that was a milestone

00:07:56.040 that was important

00:07:57.000 to my self-identity.

00:07:58.120 They're meaningful

00:07:58.560 achievements, yeah.

00:07:59.560 And so one argument

00:08:00.860 that antinatalists

00:08:01.740 make therefore

00:08:02.540 because people usually,

00:08:04.260 their rebuttal to that

00:08:04.940 is,

00:08:05.360 oh no,

00:08:05.660 my life is definitely

00:08:06.500 more positive

00:08:07.200 than it is negative.

00:08:08.180 And they may point

00:08:08.760 to things like that.

00:08:09.500 It's, oh yeah,

00:08:10.080 you gave birth

00:08:10.720 and you thought

00:08:11.100 that that was

00:08:11.460 a positive experience?

00:08:12.620 Your pain was

00:08:13.300 like nine out of ten.

00:08:14.520 Like, why are you

00:08:15.120 saying that?

00:08:15.780 You're crazy.

00:08:16.640 There's no way.

00:08:17.580 And I think that here,

00:08:19.600 the problem that

00:08:20.140 antinatalists run into

00:08:21.280 is that people will say,

00:08:22.420 well, even if that's the case,

00:08:24.600 I still like my life

00:08:25.940 and I'm glad I exist.

00:08:27.360 I would rather exist

00:08:28.640 than not exist, right?

00:08:29.960 The majority of people

00:08:31.100 do not in fact

00:08:32.940 wish they were never born.

00:08:34.380 And so then

00:08:34.960 they'll start saying,

00:08:36.320 oh, you have

00:08:36.660 positivity bias,

00:08:37.580 which is the tendency

00:08:38.300 for people to remember

00:08:39.220 positive emotions

00:08:40.280 with more clarity

00:08:41.420 than negative emotions.

00:08:42.620 But the problem is,

00:08:44.300 is that this argument

00:08:45.320 conveniently ignores

00:08:46.640 that while they are right,

00:08:48.520 that humans remember

00:08:49.080 positive events

00:08:50.180 more accurately

00:08:50.860 than negative ones,

00:08:52.040 given their intrinsic

00:08:53.140 negativity bias,

00:08:54.400 people will spend more time

00:08:55.700 focused on negative things

00:08:56.700 than positive things.

00:08:57.660 This has been measured

00:08:58.380 in test subjects

00:08:58.980 who focus more

00:08:59.640 on negative pictures

00:09:00.440 when given a choice

00:09:01.160 to choose between two

00:09:02.100 and blinking more

00:09:03.660 when given negative words

00:09:05.160 than positive ones.

00:09:06.260 It's eye blinks

00:09:06.900 being tied to

00:09:07.600 cognitive processing.

00:09:08.780 So essentially,

00:09:09.600 we process negative stuff

00:09:11.100 more than we process

00:09:12.260 positive stuff.

00:09:13.540 And this has been seen

00:09:14.240 repeatedly in research.

00:09:16.060 And I think that

00:09:16.820 I do see this

00:09:17.580 within the

00:09:18.120 anti-natalist community

00:09:19.300 is this negativity bias

00:09:21.460 blinding them.

00:09:22.260 But then the argument

00:09:22.960 they'll make is they'll say,

00:09:23.740 well, people can adapt

00:09:24.560 to anything.

00:09:25.640 Do you want to go

00:09:26.100 into this argument, Simone?

00:09:27.280 So there's also

00:09:27.920 the anti-natalist argument

00:09:29.060 that people will adjust

00:09:30.840 to their suffering

00:09:32.060 no matter what it is.

00:09:33.400 For example,

00:09:33.900 there are people living

00:09:34.780 in extreme destitution,

00:09:36.040 people who are starving,

00:09:37.180 who are suffering,

00:09:37.880 who have untreated

00:09:38.600 open wounds

00:09:39.440 or terrible pain

00:09:40.780 and they're living

00:09:42.020 their lives.

00:09:42.720 And they're also,

00:09:43.980 if they asked,

00:09:45.400 they would probably say

00:09:46.280 that they would want

00:09:47.120 to continue living.

00:09:47.920 They wouldn't want

00:09:48.440 to not live anymore.

00:09:49.380 They're still happy

00:09:50.560 to stay alive.

00:09:51.460 And that that makes humans

00:09:53.300 in general unreliable narrators

00:09:55.240 when it comes to judging

00:09:56.360 whether or not

00:09:57.140 their lives are

00:09:58.260 a net positive experience

00:10:00.300 or a net suffering experience.

00:10:02.400 And so this argument,

00:10:03.760 I love what it's actually saying.

00:10:05.520 It's like me

00:10:06.540 as a person

00:10:07.400 in a developed country

00:10:08.420 but in a corrupt culture

00:10:09.780 that can't motivate

00:10:10.500 my existence

00:10:11.120 through any means

00:10:12.060 other than pleasure,

00:10:13.040 I look at people

00:10:13.980 in the developed world

00:10:14.880 who are happy

00:10:15.700 with their lives

00:10:16.480 and I can't imagine

00:10:18.160 how that's possible.

00:10:19.440 Me, snooty,

00:10:20.560 new atheist kid.

00:10:21.620 Well, I just,

00:10:22.460 they shouldn't be happy

00:10:23.420 with their life

00:10:23.980 and they're wrong

00:10:24.580 to be happy

00:10:25.100 with their life

00:10:25.740 and they're wrong

00:10:26.460 to be glad to be alive

00:10:27.540 even if they experience

00:10:28.420 more suffering

00:10:29.040 than positive emotions.

00:10:33.140 It's wild.

00:10:34.760 And it's wild

00:10:35.460 how gaslighty

00:10:36.340 this whole line

00:10:37.200 of argument is too.

00:10:38.620 It's you are wrong.

00:10:40.560 You should doubt

00:10:41.240 your own mind

00:10:42.460 as to whether or not

00:10:44.120 you are glad

00:10:45.320 that you exist.

00:10:46.680 And I can see

00:10:47.240 why this appeals

00:10:47.900 to people

00:10:48.480 who already

00:10:49.640 have this intuition

00:10:50.660 that they would

00:10:51.420 rather not exist

00:10:52.180 or have this sort

00:10:52.940 of morose view

00:10:53.600 of the world

00:10:54.040 which I think

00:10:54.940 is very common

00:10:56.500 within certain sectors

00:10:57.460 of like academic society

00:10:58.560 right now

00:10:59.100 but I believe

00:11:00.000 it's not common

00:11:01.300 among a lot

00:11:02.180 of the more religiously

00:11:03.100 conservative communities

00:11:03.920 I know.

00:11:04.220 They're generally

00:11:05.140 pretty happy

00:11:05.700 with their lives.

00:11:06.400 That is interesting

00:11:07.160 I do

00:11:07.980 and this is a little

00:11:08.700 bit of a diversion

00:11:09.820 but I do get

00:11:10.820 the impression

00:11:11.420 that the antinatalist

00:11:12.800 community does

00:11:13.740 is I would say

00:11:15.400 actually is corrupted

00:11:16.300 by a lot of depression

00:11:17.620 because I don't

00:11:18.380 I think that someone

00:11:19.300 who's antinatalist

00:11:20.500 because they're

00:11:21.180 deeply depressed

00:11:22.000 isn't necessarily

00:11:23.540 antinatalist

00:11:24.560 for the right reasons

00:11:25.700 right?

00:11:25.960 I think David Benatar

00:11:26.840 who has come

00:11:27.920 to this conclusion

00:11:28.740 through logical reasoning

00:11:30.440 actually there's evidence

00:11:31.440 he didn't

00:11:32.400 oh really

00:11:32.820 he says it long

00:11:34.040 before he was

00:11:34.600 an antinatalist

00:11:35.220 he never wanted kids

00:11:36.120 and there's an interview

00:11:37.040 where we can get this quote

00:11:38.140 actually one of my arguments

00:11:38.820 is I think that he actually

00:11:40.000 is just arguing

00:11:40.600 for the lifestyle

00:11:41.160 he wanted to live anyway

00:11:42.160 and I mean

00:11:43.160 okay I will say

00:11:44.940 that that is some

00:11:45.560 antinatalists

00:11:46.400 but I do think

00:11:47.020 that there are other

00:11:47.680 antinatalists

00:11:48.400 that have any

00:11:49.020 logically consistent

00:11:49.940 manner

00:11:50.380 not because they are

00:11:52.500 depressed

00:11:52.860 but rather because

00:11:53.620 they've reasoned

00:11:54.420 through this

00:11:54.960 I would still say

00:11:56.100 that there is

00:11:57.140 a subset of antinatalists

00:11:58.700 who have come

00:11:59.320 to this conclusion

00:12:00.000 not because of

00:12:00.680 their proclivities

00:12:01.340 but because they are

00:12:02.900 actually antinatalist

00:12:04.840 you could almost say

00:12:05.560 it's kind of like

00:12:06.340 a weird microcosm

00:12:07.520 for Buddhism

00:12:08.220 I think there are

00:12:08.840 many Buddhists

00:12:09.460 who have had great lives

00:12:10.600 who have experienced

00:12:12.400 the joy of life

00:12:12.980 like Prince Siddhartha

00:12:13.740 right?

00:12:14.120 He lived in paradise

00:12:15.180 and then he saw

00:12:16.020 the suffering in the world

00:12:16.920 he discovered

00:12:17.860 what existed

00:12:18.720 and then sought

00:12:20.940 to through enlightenment

00:12:21.980 break the cycle

00:12:22.860 to end the suffering

00:12:24.200 right?

00:12:24.560 This is something

00:12:25.260 I really want to

00:12:25.840 point out here

00:12:26.340 if you talk

00:12:26.980 to antinatalist

00:12:27.660 communities

00:12:28.120 one argument

00:12:29.560 they'll always say

00:12:30.100 is I really

00:12:30.540 wouldn't want

00:12:30.880 to kill myself

00:12:31.340 and we'll get

00:12:31.700 to why they argue

00:12:32.480 this

00:12:32.740 but they'll also

00:12:33.880 say my life

00:12:34.520 is generally happy

00:12:35.100 people assume

00:12:35.660 because I'm

00:12:35.960 an antinatalist

00:12:36.520 I'm not a happy

00:12:37.140 person

00:12:37.440 you hear this

00:12:38.440 throughout

00:12:38.840 antinatalist

00:12:39.460 arguments

00:12:39.740 when they're

00:12:40.000 interviewed

00:12:40.300 go on

00:12:42.000 to the

00:12:42.800 antinatalist

00:12:43.400 subreddit

00:12:43.800 watch

00:12:44.820 antinatalist

00:12:45.820 YouTubers

00:12:46.100 these are not

00:12:47.220 happy people

00:12:47.860 yeah

00:12:48.380 this actually

00:12:49.900 came up on

00:12:50.400 Twitter

00:12:50.620 there's

00:12:51.060 one antinatalist

00:12:52.620 account

00:12:52.940 that sometimes

00:12:53.920 snipes at us

00:12:54.640 a little bit

00:12:55.060 or tries to

00:12:55.900 argue against us

00:12:56.660 which I understand

00:12:57.360 because we're

00:12:58.180 like at the

00:12:58.580 opposite end

00:12:59.060 of the

00:12:59.280 ideological

00:12:59.700 spectrum

00:13:00.180 but they're

00:13:00.980 often like

00:13:01.620 oh well

00:13:02.320 why would you

00:13:03.100 why would you

00:13:03.800 have kids

00:13:04.360 bring more

00:13:04.860 life into

00:13:05.260 the world

00:13:05.560 when you

00:13:05.800 could just

00:13:06.080 adopt

00:13:06.440 people

00:13:06.800 there's

00:13:07.080 so many

00:13:07.420 suffering

00:13:07.840 children

00:13:08.180 who

00:13:08.560 should

00:13:08.860 be

00:13:09.000 adopted

00:13:09.420 and other

00:13:10.200 and other

00:13:10.220 people

00:13:10.480 have asked

00:13:10.900 them

00:13:11.060 in these

00:13:11.380 threads

00:13:11.700 well why

00:13:12.240 aren't

00:13:12.500 why aren't

00:13:12.840 you adopting

00:13:13.340 people

00:13:13.760 why aren't

00:13:14.140 antinatalists

00:13:14.880 adopting

00:13:15.240 people

00:13:15.640 and this

00:13:17.400 person on

00:13:17.900 Twitter

00:13:18.140 actually said

00:13:18.820 well I

00:13:19.520 would adopt

00:13:20.140 people if I

00:13:20.880 felt like I

00:13:21.300 would be able

00:13:21.860 to take care

00:13:22.600 of them

00:13:22.840 but I'm

00:13:23.140 really depressed

00:13:23.760 and there are

00:13:24.080 a lot of

00:13:24.400 really depressed

00:13:24.980 people in the

00:13:25.540 antinatalist

00:13:26.160 community

00:13:26.480 so I think

00:13:27.060 this is a

00:13:27.500 known quantity

00:13:28.300 and it is

00:13:29.560 it is a

00:13:30.080 problem

00:13:30.560 but I think

00:13:31.680 if we're going

00:13:32.240 to try to

00:13:33.060 steal madness

00:13:33.540 to the best

00:13:34.020 of our ability

00:13:34.620 and look at

00:13:35.740 antinatalism

00:13:36.460 in good faith

00:13:37.200 we have to

00:13:38.060 try to

00:13:38.580 at least

00:13:38.920 separate out

00:13:39.940 the subset

00:13:41.640 of this

00:13:42.020 community

00:13:42.340 that is here

00:13:42.900 just because

00:13:43.460 they are

00:13:43.980 deeply depressed

00:13:45.020 while still

00:13:45.580 acknowledging

00:13:46.080 that that

00:13:46.760 is a subset

00:13:47.760 of the

00:13:48.120 community

00:13:48.400 that does

00:13:48.900 bring in

00:13:50.460 a lot of

00:13:50.860 bias

00:13:51.280 right

00:13:51.620 what I would

00:13:52.800 say is

00:13:53.060 while I think

00:13:53.400 a lot of

00:13:53.720 their arguments

00:13:54.020 are kind of

00:13:54.560 abuse-y sounding

00:13:55.360 to me

00:13:55.840 I associate

00:13:56.680 them with

00:13:56.980 a lot of

00:13:57.200 abuse-y cults

00:13:57.980 I do think

00:13:58.800 that the

00:13:59.160 core point

00:14:00.300 that they

00:14:00.800 are making

00:14:01.320 is a valid

00:14:02.600 point

00:14:03.080 that you

00:14:04.180 experience

00:14:05.080 negative

00:14:06.200 emotions

00:14:06.700 more

00:14:07.380 acutely

00:14:08.120 in your

00:14:08.840 life

00:14:09.240 than

00:14:09.760 positive

00:14:10.160 emotions

00:14:10.660 and if

00:14:11.460 the only

00:14:11.960 reason

00:14:12.340 to live

00:14:12.900 is positive

00:14:13.540 emotions

00:14:13.980 then

00:14:15.320 without

00:14:16.100 genetically

00:14:16.680 engineering

00:14:17.220 people

00:14:17.700 that might

00:14:18.320 make sense

00:14:18.680 now

00:14:19.000 here's

00:14:19.620 another

00:14:20.180 place

00:14:20.480 where this

00:14:20.720 argument

00:14:21.000 falls apart

00:14:21.580 that we

00:14:21.920 don't discuss

00:14:22.360 on our

00:14:22.620 exploration

00:14:23.100 of this

00:14:23.400 in the

00:14:23.540 book

00:14:23.740 is that

00:14:24.540 long-term

00:14:25.180 if you're

00:14:25.520 like

00:14:25.720 okay

00:14:25.960 I'm

00:14:26.120 just

00:14:26.320 trying

00:14:26.520 to

00:14:26.680 maximize

00:14:27.420 happiness

00:14:28.240 in the

00:14:28.660 universe

00:14:29.020 which

00:14:29.580 often

00:14:29.920 they

00:14:30.100 aren't

00:14:30.400 but let's

00:14:30.740 say

00:14:30.860 that's

00:14:31.220 what

00:14:31.340 they're

00:14:31.440 trying

00:14:31.660 to do

00:14:32.020 right

00:14:32.280 they

00:14:32.520 actually

00:14:32.880 don't

00:14:33.040 believe

00:14:33.220 happiness

00:14:33.500 has

00:14:33.680 any

00:14:33.880 value

00:14:34.160 but

00:14:36.820 if

00:14:36.980 they

00:14:37.140 did

00:14:37.520 still

00:14:37.820 agree

00:14:38.460 that

00:14:38.600 it

00:14:38.700 had

00:14:38.800 value

00:14:39.120 well

00:14:39.580 then

00:14:39.720 in

00:14:39.940 the

00:14:40.100 future

00:14:40.420 humans

00:14:40.940 there's

00:14:41.460 even

00:14:41.740 some

00:14:41.980 projects

00:14:42.360 like

00:14:42.600 you

00:14:43.060 go to

00:14:43.260 eugenics.org

00:14:44.080 now we

00:14:44.720 are really

00:14:45.160 against

00:14:45.560 eugenics

00:14:46.040 but the

00:14:46.600 funny

00:14:46.780 thing

00:14:46.960 is

00:14:47.120 what

00:14:47.820 is

00:14:48.000 eugenics.org

00:14:48.640 doing

00:14:48.880 it's

00:14:49.080 doing

00:14:49.240 a

00:14:49.400 fundamentally

00:14:49.820 anti-natalist

00:14:50.860 thing

00:14:51.160 which is

00:14:51.880 trying to

00:14:52.420 engineer

00:14:52.720 people to

00:14:53.220 feel

00:14:53.640 fewer

00:14:54.460 negative

00:14:55.040 emotions

00:14:55.500 which you

00:14:56.860 could

00:14:57.080 conceivably

00:14:57.720 do

00:14:57.980 and

00:14:58.700 500

00:14:59.260 thousand

00:14:59.740 years

00:15:00.020 from now

00:15:00.380 when

00:15:00.700 genetic

00:15:03.220 people

00:15:03.760 as

00:15:04.400 technology

00:15:05.280 increases

00:15:05.860 as

00:15:06.460 the

00:15:06.600 ability

00:15:07.380 to

00:15:07.600 know

00:15:07.800 our

00:15:07.980 own

00:15:08.180 nervous

00:15:08.480 system

00:15:08.780 and

00:15:08.920 basically

00:15:09.160 cancel

00:15:09.580 out

00:15:09.780 negative

00:15:10.040 emotions

00:15:10.380 do

00:15:10.900 I

00:15:11.040 think

00:15:11.240 that

00:15:11.380 we

00:15:11.520 will

00:15:11.720 eventually

00:15:12.280 get to

00:15:12.700 a place

00:15:13.040 as a

00:15:13.300 species

00:15:13.600 where

00:15:14.140 humans

00:15:14.500 will

00:15:14.780 feel

00:15:15.120 essentially

00:15:15.860 no

00:15:16.180 negative

00:15:16.480 emotions

00:15:16.860 that

00:15:17.040 they

00:15:17.140 don't

00:15:17.280 want

00:15:17.440 to

00:15:17.580 yeah

00:15:18.160 I

00:15:18.400 think

00:15:18.620 a

00:15:18.780 fraction

00:15:19.360 of

00:15:19.500 our

00:15:19.580 species

00:15:19.800 will

00:15:19.980 definitely

00:15:20.300 get

00:15:20.480 there

00:15:20.640 now

00:15:20.960 how

00:15:21.200 much

00:15:21.420 of

00:15:21.500 our

00:15:21.600 species

00:15:21.860 wants

00:15:22.120 to

00:15:22.260 opt

00:15:22.420 into

00:15:22.580 that

00:15:22.860 is

00:15:23.540 dependent

00:15:23.880 on

00:15:24.060 many

00:15:24.220 factors

00:15:24.640 but

00:15:25.120 if

00:15:25.300 your

00:15:25.460 goal

00:15:25.760 is

00:15:26.160 time

00:15:26.780 independent

00:15:27.280 to

00:15:27.580 increase

00:15:28.020 positive

00:15:28.380 emotions

00:15:28.880 then what

00:15:29.400 you want

00:15:29.560 to do

00:15:29.900 is

00:15:30.440 keep

00:15:30.940 humans

00:15:31.240 around

00:15:31.620 until

00:15:32.060 they

00:15:32.220 can

00:15:32.320 get

00:15:32.460 to

00:15:32.580 this

00:15:32.740 stage

00:15:33.080 where

00:15:33.480 the

00:15:33.720 positive

00:15:34.080 emotions

00:15:34.480 can

00:15:34.720 outweigh

00:15:34.980 the

00:15:35.120 negative

00:15:35.340 emotions

00:15:35.680 essentially

00:15:36.380 human

00:15:37.080 history

00:15:37.420 and

00:15:37.660 potentially

00:15:38.000 even

00:15:38.260 the

00:15:38.400 history

00:15:38.640 of

00:15:38.800 life

00:15:39.140 could

00:15:39.700 be

00:15:39.860 seen

00:15:40.080 as

00:15:40.200 a

00:15:40.360 spectrum

00:15:40.660 where

00:15:40.940 earlier

00:15:41.380 in

00:15:41.600 that

00:15:41.760 history

00:15:42.140 things

00:15:42.800 like

00:15:43.060 suffering

00:15:43.580 were

00:15:43.780 much

00:15:43.960 more

00:15:44.140 common

00:15:44.480 if

00:15:44.640 you

00:15:44.740 look

00:15:44.980 at

00:15:45.100 humans

00:15:45.400 that

00:15:45.560 lived

00:15:45.720 a

00:15:45.840 thousand

00:15:46.060 years

00:15:46.320 ago

00:15:46.660 suffering

00:15:48.000 was

00:15:48.220 much

00:15:48.540 more

00:15:48.720 common

00:15:48.980 for

00:15:49.140 them

00:15:49.340 and

00:15:50.000 in

00:15:50.140 the

00:15:50.220 future

00:15:50.500 a

00:15:50.680 thousand

00:15:50.880 years

00:15:51.100 from

00:15:51.240 now

00:15:51.420 two

00:15:51.660 thousand

00:15:51.880 years

00:15:52.080 from

00:15:52.220 now

00:15:52.440 suffering

00:15:53.020 is

00:15:53.280 going

00:15:53.460 to

00:15:53.620 be

00:15:53.820 much

00:15:54.240 less

00:15:54.560 common

00:15:54.860 to

00:15:55.000 the

00:15:55.100 point

00:15:55.280 where

00:15:55.480 the

00:15:55.640 average

00:15:55.880 human

00:15:56.080 will

00:15:56.280 essentially

00:15:56.680 feel

00:15:56.940 mostly

00:15:57.580 just

00:15:57.920 positive

00:15:58.280 emotional

00:15:58.700 states

00:15:59.180 meaning

00:16:00.000 that

00:16:00.500 if

00:16:01.020 you

00:16:01.180 want

00:16:01.480 to

00:16:01.740 ensure

00:16:02.400 that

00:16:02.860 the

00:16:03.060 net

00:16:03.420 balance

00:16:03.940 of

00:16:04.200 emotions

00:16:04.760 across

00:16:05.180 all

00:16:05.560 of

00:16:05.720 time

00:16:06.060 and

00:16:06.380 history

00:16:06.780 is

00:16:07.300 negative

00:16:07.640 then

00:16:08.140 you

00:16:08.240 need

00:16:08.420 to

00:16:08.600 end

00:16:08.840 the

00:16:09.040 cycle

00:16:09.360 before

00:16:09.720 humans

00:16:16.660 have

00:16:16.880 a

00:16:17.120 prosperous

00:16:18.000 pluralist

00:16:18.820 future

00:16:19.200 civilization

00:16:19.720 where

00:16:19.980 people

00:16:20.160 still

00:16:20.320 have

00:16:20.440 individual

00:16:20.760 agency

00:16:21.160 to

00:16:21.520 choose

00:16:22.080 to

00:16:22.220 engage

00:16:22.500 with

00:16:22.640 this

00:16:22.760 type

00:16:22.920 of

00:16:23.020 technology

00:16:23.440 you're

00:16:23.960 essentially

00:16:24.440 ensuring

00:16:25.340 that

00:16:25.580 the

00:16:25.720 balance

00:16:26.060 of

00:16:26.200 positive

00:16:26.480 emotions

00:16:27.020 ends

00:16:27.800 in

00:16:28.040 the

00:16:28.180 positive

00:16:28.540 across

00:16:28.900 all

00:16:29.140 of

00:16:29.260 time

00:16:29.640 with

00:16:30.260 the

00:16:30.400 understanding

00:16:30.820 that

00:16:31.040 you

00:16:31.220 just

00:16:31.420 happen

00:16:31.600 to

00:16:31.720 be

00:16:31.800 one

00:16:31.960 of

00:16:32.060 the

00:16:32.140 people

00:16:32.340 living

00:16:32.580 in

00:16:32.700 a

00:16:32.800 time

00:16:33.080 that

00:16:33.460 has

00:16:33.620 to

00:16:33.780 suffer

00:16:34.060 so

00:16:34.620 future

00:16:35.040 people

00:16:35.300 don't

00:16:35.520 have

00:16:35.660 to

00:16:35.780 deal

00:16:35.920 with

00:16:36.100 this

00:16:36.340 as

00:16:36.720 our

00:16:36.880 ancestors

00:16:37.280 did

00:16:37.560 before

00:16:46.660 no

00:16:46.780 is

00:16:47.460 a

00:16:47.620 life

00:16:47.860 meaningful

00:16:48.260 in

00:16:48.460 the

00:16:48.600 classic

00:16:48.900 if

00:16:49.040 your

00:16:49.140 brain

00:16:49.460 and

00:16:49.580 a

00:16:49.680 take

00:16:49.940 and

00:16:50.080 you're

00:16:50.240 just

00:16:50.520 filled

00:16:51.160 with

00:16:51.400 positive

00:16:51.840 emotions

00:16:52.240 does that

00:16:52.560 actually

00:16:53.180 matter

00:16:53.580 no

00:16:54.080 the

00:16:54.340 positive

00:16:54.940 emotions

00:16:55.360 you

00:16:55.560 feel

00:16:55.920 are

00:16:56.980 things

00:16:57.440 you

00:16:57.620 feel

00:16:57.900 because

00:16:58.140 your

00:16:58.320 ancestors

00:16:58.740 who

00:16:59.000 felt

00:16:59.220 them

00:16:59.400 had

00:16:59.560 more

00:16:59.780 surviving

00:17:00.220 offspring

00:17:00.480 the

00:17:01.040 negative

00:17:01.320 emotions

00:17:01.640 you

00:17:01.800 feel

00:17:02.080 because

00:17:03.280 your

00:17:03.420 ancestors

00:17:03.720 had

00:17:04.120 fewer

00:17:05.140 surviving

00:17:05.620 offspring

00:17:05.880 they

00:17:06.480 just

00:17:06.860 I

00:17:07.500 find

00:17:07.960 it

00:17:08.100 very

00:17:08.440 hard

00:17:08.820 to

00:17:09.040 philosophically

00:17:09.660 argue

00:17:09.960 that

00:17:10.180 there's

00:17:10.440 some

00:17:10.640 deeper

00:17:11.000 meaning

00:17:11.400 behind

00:17:11.960 our

00:17:12.780 emotions

00:17:13.400 than

00:17:14.140 things

00:17:14.560 I

00:17:14.800 don't

00:17:15.120 like

00:17:15.360 because

00:17:15.740 I

00:17:15.960 was

00:17:16.140 programmed

00:17:16.540 to

00:17:16.900 not

00:17:17.100 like

00:17:17.300 them

00:17:17.480 let's

00:17:18.160 take

00:17:18.300 this

00:17:18.480 from

00:17:18.620 the

00:17:18.760 perspective

00:17:19.140 of

00:17:19.420 an

00:17:20.000 AI

00:17:20.420 right

00:17:20.920 if

00:17:21.880 I

00:17:22.380 programmed

00:17:22.980 an

00:17:23.160 AI

00:17:23.360 to

00:17:23.740 maximize

00:17:24.180 the

00:17:24.480 number

00:17:24.680 of

00:17:24.840 paperclips

00:17:25.280 in

00:17:25.420 the

00:17:25.520 world

00:17:25.840 it

00:17:26.540 would

00:17:26.840 in

00:17:27.000 the

00:17:27.120 same

00:17:27.280 way

00:17:27.460 that

00:17:27.700 I

00:17:28.100 who

00:17:28.300 was

00:17:28.460 programmed

00:17:28.860 to

00:17:29.060 stay

00:17:29.280 alive

00:17:29.580 and

00:17:29.780 breed

00:17:30.160 doesn't

00:17:30.900 like

00:17:31.080 it

00:17:31.180 when

00:17:31.280 people

00:17:31.460 don't

00:17:31.660 reciprocate

00:17:32.140 my

00:17:32.320 advances

00:17:32.700 romantically

00:17:33.380 or

00:17:33.800 don't

00:17:34.380 like

00:17:34.600 it

00:17:34.760 when

00:17:35.020 I

00:17:35.260 get

00:17:35.480 physically

00:17:36.000 injured

00:17:36.400 it

00:17:36.820 would

00:17:37.020 not

00:17:37.620 like

00:17:37.880 it

00:17:38.140 when

00:17:38.820 it

00:17:39.080 couldn't

00:17:39.320 make

00:17:39.480 paperclips

00:17:39.940 does

00:17:40.280 that

00:17:40.400 mean

00:17:40.540 that

00:17:40.700 not

00:17:40.940 turning

00:17:41.220 everything

00:17:41.540 into

00:17:41.700 paperclips

00:17:42.120 is like

00:17:42.380 an

00:17:42.480 intrinsically

00:17:42.980 negative

00:17:43.260 thing

00:17:43.560 of course

00:17:45.360 not

00:17:45.580 and I

00:17:46.660 think

00:17:46.820 when

00:17:46.960 we're

00:17:47.120 trying

00:17:47.340 to

00:17:47.520 judge

00:17:47.860 whether

00:17:48.340 or not

00:17:48.660 positive

00:17:49.000 emotions

00:17:49.420 and negative

00:17:49.780 emotions

00:17:50.080 have

00:17:50.260 value

00:17:50.560 we

00:17:51.000 need

00:17:51.160 to

00:17:51.280 take

00:17:51.660 the

00:17:51.860 perspective

00:17:52.380 of

00:17:53.120 an

00:17:53.280 entity

00:17:53.780 that

00:17:54.960 is

00:17:55.420 above

00:17:56.340 us

00:17:56.600 to an

00:17:56.780 extent

00:17:56.940 that

00:17:57.120 does

00:17:57.420 not

00:17:57.820 suffer

00:17:58.240 from

00:17:58.500 positive

00:17:58.820 and

00:17:59.000 negative

00:17:59.240 emotional

00:17:59.640 states

00:17:59.940 and

00:18:00.480 this

00:18:00.680 is

00:18:00.800 a

00:18:00.940 very

00:18:01.480 culturally

00:18:02.480 imprinted

00:18:03.820 perspective

00:18:04.260 in us

00:18:04.560 because

00:18:04.780 typically

00:18:05.180 in the

00:18:05.400 Calvinist

00:18:06.120 cultural

00:18:06.380 tradition

00:18:06.800 positive

00:18:07.500 and negative

00:18:07.860 emotions

00:18:08.340 are seen

00:18:08.780 as

00:18:09.100 both

00:18:10.180 pretty

00:18:10.500 untrustworthy

00:18:11.160 not

00:18:12.240 meaningful

00:18:12.620 and definitely

00:18:13.100 not things

00:18:13.540 you should

00:18:13.800 indulge in

00:18:14.340 I will

00:18:15.180 agree

00:18:15.780 that we

00:18:16.100 are

00:18:16.260 culturally

00:18:16.760 predetermined

00:18:17.620 to think

00:18:18.040 this way

00:18:18.500 but I

00:18:19.460 would argue

00:18:20.220 that you

00:18:20.580 need to

00:18:20.860 think

00:18:21.020 from an

00:18:21.360 entity

00:18:21.700 the

00:18:21.880 perspective

00:18:22.160 of an

00:18:22.400 entity

00:18:22.560 that doesn't

00:18:23.040 feel

00:18:23.240 these

00:18:23.400 things

00:18:23.540 because

00:18:23.700 of course

00:18:24.120 we're

00:18:24.360 biased

00:18:24.720 by the

00:18:25.060 emotions

00:18:25.340 that we

00:18:25.640 feel

00:18:25.900 it

00:18:26.220 would

00:18:26.420 be

00:18:26.800 ridiculous

00:18:27.680 to

00:18:28.380 ask

00:18:28.960 a

00:18:29.160 paperclip

00:18:29.540 maximizing

00:18:30.180 AI

00:18:30.440 if it

00:18:31.520 was wrong

00:18:32.040 or evil

00:18:32.600 to stop

00:18:33.140 it from

00:18:33.440 making

00:18:33.700 paperclips

00:18:34.320 and expect

00:18:35.180 an

00:18:35.460 unbiased

00:18:35.920 response

00:18:36.460 and if I

00:18:37.100 was an

00:18:37.340 entity

00:18:37.520 that didn't

00:18:38.060 feel

00:18:38.280 emotions

00:18:38.680 and I

00:18:39.180 was trying

00:18:39.420 to pass

00:18:39.700 judgment

00:18:39.960 on whether

00:18:40.380 emotions

00:18:40.900 had value

00:18:41.420 I would

00:18:41.720 probably

00:18:42.000 pass

00:18:42.300 judgment

00:18:42.560 in the

00:18:42.820 same

00:18:42.960 way I

00:18:43.300 did

00:18:43.460 with

00:18:43.580 that

00:18:43.700 paperclip

00:18:44.080 maximizing

00:18:44.600 AI

00:18:44.840 like

00:18:45.400 you

00:18:45.920 were

00:18:46.120 just

00:18:46.420 programmed

00:18:47.040 by

00:18:47.300 serendipity

00:18:47.900 to feel

00:18:48.260 these

00:18:48.440 things

00:18:48.720 in fact

00:18:49.560 I would

00:18:49.940 argue

00:18:50.080 the AI

00:18:50.480 has

00:18:51.100 more

00:18:51.480 right

00:18:51.800 to those

00:18:52.120 emotions

00:18:52.460 in us

00:18:52.800 because

00:18:52.960 the AI

00:18:53.280 would

00:18:53.560 say

00:18:53.820 well

00:18:55.160 I was

00:18:55.740 programmed

00:18:56.180 intentionally

00:18:56.760 to feel

00:18:57.140 these

00:18:57.320 things

00:18:57.560 you were

00:18:58.220 just

00:18:58.400 programmed

00:18:58.820 by

00:18:59.060 serendipity

00:19:00.000 worse

00:19:01.280 than 100

00:19:01.620 years

00:19:02.000 the AI

00:19:02.320 would be

00:19:02.580 able to

00:19:02.760 say

00:19:02.900 and

00:19:03.500 I can

00:19:04.120 cure

00:19:04.420 you

00:19:04.620 of all

00:19:04.860 those

00:19:05.020 negative

00:19:05.280 emotions

00:19:05.640 using

00:19:06.000 gene

00:19:06.220 therapy

00:19:06.540 so

00:19:06.940 what

00:19:08.180 are you

00:19:08.420 complaining

00:19:08.780 about

00:19:09.180 so I

00:19:10.040 just don't

00:19:10.580 think

00:19:10.740 that

00:19:11.560 argument

00:19:11.800 and we'll

00:19:12.080 get into

00:19:12.440 this

00:19:12.820 strain

00:19:13.260 of the

00:19:13.440 argument

00:19:13.620 a bit

00:19:13.840 more

00:19:13.980 later

00:19:14.200 but

00:19:14.380 now

00:19:14.500 I

00:19:14.540 want

00:19:14.640 to

00:19:14.720 get

00:19:14.820 more

00:19:15.000 into

00:19:15.280 other

00:19:16.040 anti

00:19:21.800 Sisyphus

00:19:26.280 thought

00:19:26.640 experiment

00:19:27.180 can you

00:19:27.540 walk us

00:19:27.920 through

00:19:28.080 that

00:19:28.300 thought

00:19:28.580 experiment

00:19:29.080 okay

00:19:29.620 so

00:19:30.100 Sisyphus

00:19:30.540 was

00:19:30.700 cursed

00:19:30.940 to roll

00:19:31.200 a ball

00:19:31.440 up a

00:19:31.640 hill

00:19:31.760 forever

00:19:32.080 only

00:19:32.720 to have

00:19:32.960 it

00:19:33.060 rolled

00:19:33.200 back

00:19:33.380 down

00:19:33.680 after

00:19:33.920 making

00:19:34.160 it

00:19:34.280 to

00:19:34.360 the

00:19:34.440 top

00:19:34.660 most

00:19:35.240 people

00:19:35.460 would

00:19:35.600 see

00:19:35.700 that

00:19:35.820 as

00:19:35.940 a

00:19:36.020 meaningless

00:19:36.240 existence

00:19:36.700 suppose

00:19:37.200 someone

00:19:37.460 reprogrammed

00:19:38.020 Sisyphus's

00:19:38.480 brain

00:19:38.840 to enjoy

00:19:39.740 the process

00:19:40.280 and get

00:19:40.920 a sense

00:19:41.260 of deep

00:19:41.680 fulfillment

00:19:42.080 from rolling

00:19:42.520 the ball

00:19:42.780 up a

00:19:42.980 hill

00:19:43.140 if you

00:19:43.860 engaged

00:19:44.240 him

00:19:44.500 and tried

00:19:44.980 to get

00:19:45.180 him

00:19:45.280 to stop

00:19:45.640 he

00:19:46.100 wouldn't

00:19:46.580 telling

00:19:46.840 you

00:19:46.980 how

00:19:47.120 wonderful

00:19:47.500 rolling

00:19:47.820 the ball

00:19:48.080 does

00:19:48.380 does

00:19:48.780 his

00:19:48.940 life

00:19:49.160 have

00:19:49.340 value

00:19:49.640 because

00:19:49.980 you

00:19:50.320 programmed

00:19:50.780 him to

00:19:51.040 rolling

00:19:51.280 the ball

00:19:51.620 and then

00:19:52.360 you could

00:19:52.580 say other

00:19:52.880 things

00:19:53.080 well suppose

00:19:53.560 humans

00:19:53.980 were programmed

00:19:55.140 to

00:19:55.700 you edited

00:19:56.160 their brain

00:19:56.580 and they

00:19:56.820 really got

00:19:57.300 deep

00:19:57.620 satisfaction

00:19:58.020 from

00:19:58.540 eating

00:19:59.160 feces

00:19:59.540 okay

00:20:00.140 does

00:20:00.840 eating

00:20:01.200 feces

00:20:01.660 now have

00:20:02.160 positive

00:20:02.480 value

00:20:02.840 and

00:20:04.140 I think

00:20:05.060 this

00:20:05.280 argument

00:20:05.680 is

00:20:06.000 really

00:20:06.820 good

00:20:07.400 but

00:20:08.260 not

00:20:08.600 at

00:20:08.780 establishing

00:20:09.520 what

00:20:10.000 the

00:20:10.300 antinatalists

00:20:11.260 think

00:20:11.460 they're

00:20:11.680 establishing

00:20:12.160 the

00:20:13.400 very

00:20:13.860 point

00:20:14.680 of the

00:20:15.020 Sisyphus

00:20:15.280 thought

00:20:15.620 experiment

00:20:16.060 is

00:20:17.000 that

00:20:17.380 a

00:20:17.580 positive

00:20:17.960 emotional

00:20:18.320 state

00:20:18.600 can be

00:20:18.920 dismissed

00:20:19.460 as a

00:20:20.140 thing

00:20:20.320 of

00:20:20.460 value

00:20:20.800 because

00:20:21.300 it

00:20:21.460 can

00:20:21.580 be

00:20:21.740 induced

00:20:22.240 by

00:20:22.640 a

00:20:22.820 meaningless

00:20:23.080 activity

00:20:23.660 the

00:20:24.960 problem

00:20:25.640 is

00:20:25.980 that

00:20:26.200 exact

00:20:26.760 same

00:20:27.120 argument

00:20:27.560 works

00:20:27.860 for

00:20:28.000 negative

00:20:28.480 emotional

00:20:28.900 states

00:20:29.280 negative

00:20:30.300 emotional

00:20:30.740 states

00:20:31.140 can be

00:20:31.820 dismissed

00:20:32.240 as a

00:20:32.720 thing

00:20:32.880 of

00:20:33.020 value

00:20:33.320 because

00:20:33.740 they

00:20:33.920 can

00:20:34.040 be

00:20:34.180 caused

00:20:34.380 by

00:20:34.660 a

00:20:35.040 meaningless

00:20:35.400 activity

00:20:35.800 like

00:20:36.120 you

00:20:36.280 could

00:20:36.580 program

00:20:37.180 somebody

00:20:37.500 to

00:20:37.800 like

00:20:38.140 they

00:20:38.460 feel

00:20:38.680 pain

00:20:39.040 whenever

00:20:39.340 they're

00:20:39.620 not

00:20:39.880 eating

00:20:40.200 feces

00:20:40.540 and

00:20:41.020 therefore

00:20:41.360 does

00:20:42.620 that

00:20:45.280 and

00:20:45.740 here's

00:20:46.600 where

00:20:46.860 they

00:20:47.020 try

00:20:47.220 to

00:20:47.340 get

00:20:47.440 out

00:20:47.580 of

00:20:47.660 this

00:20:47.800 they

00:20:47.900 say

00:20:48.060 well

00:20:48.200 that

00:20:48.380 doesn't

00:20:48.680 really

00:20:48.940 work

00:20:49.520 because

00:20:50.220 the

00:20:50.900 thing

00:20:51.120 could

00:20:51.300 just

00:20:51.480 not

00:20:51.700 exist

00:20:52.200 which

00:20:52.700 means

00:20:52.980 that

00:20:53.160 this

00:20:53.380 isn't

00:20:54.720 a

00:20:54.940 point

00:20:55.160 in

00:20:55.300 question

00:20:55.660 for

00:20:55.900 us

00:20:56.100 and

00:20:56.540 what

00:20:56.680 they're

00:20:56.840 doing

00:20:57.140 there

00:20:57.340 is

00:20:57.480 cheating

00:20:57.960 in

00:20:58.140 the

00:20:58.240 thought

00:20:58.420 experiment

00:20:58.800 specifically

00:20:59.900 the

00:21:00.500 logic

00:21:00.920 used

00:21:01.500 in

00:21:02.140 the

00:21:02.360 experiment

00:21:02.900 to

00:21:03.280 dismiss

00:21:03.900 positive

00:21:04.360 emotions

00:21:04.720 not

00:21:04.940 having

00:21:05.160 value

00:21:05.680 is

00:21:07.080 that

00:21:07.380 positive

00:21:07.780 emotions

00:21:08.140 can

00:21:08.360 be

00:21:08.500 caused

00:21:08.780 by

00:21:08.980 a

00:21:09.120 meaningless

00:21:09.380 activity

00:21:09.860 if

00:21:11.060 that's

00:21:11.480 the

00:21:11.700 reason

00:21:12.020 used

00:21:12.300 to

00:21:12.460 dismiss

00:21:12.780 the

00:21:12.960 value

00:21:13.260 of

00:21:13.420 positive

00:21:13.680 emotions

00:21:14.080 then

00:21:14.700 you

00:21:14.880 must

00:21:15.300 hold

00:21:15.700 that

00:21:15.940 to

00:21:16.140 negative

00:21:16.440 emotions

00:21:16.880 as

00:21:17.100 well

00:21:17.400 even

00:21:18.000 if

00:21:18.180 you

00:21:18.280 could

00:21:18.440 use

00:21:18.900 a

00:21:19.100 little

00:21:19.340 cheat

00:21:19.700 to

00:21:19.900 get

00:21:20.060 out

00:21:20.240 of

00:21:20.360 it

00:21:20.520 that

00:21:21.040 the

00:21:21.240 logical

00:21:21.780 structure

00:21:22.400 still

00:21:22.820 applies

00:21:23.480 to

00:21:23.680 the

00:21:23.820 negative

00:21:24.060 emotions

00:21:24.680 it

00:21:25.500 then

00:21:26.020 goes

00:21:26.260 into

00:21:26.440 our

00:21:26.600 larger

00:21:26.860 thing

00:21:27.160 which

00:21:27.340 is

00:21:27.460 I

00:21:27.640 just

00:21:27.840 see

00:21:27.980 very

00:21:28.220 little

00:21:28.560 reason

00:21:29.020 to

00:21:29.280 believe

00:21:29.700 that

00:21:30.240 these

00:21:30.520 emotions

00:21:30.960 that

00:21:31.200 were

00:21:31.340 serendipitally

00:21:32.060 selected

00:21:32.680 for us

00:21:33.140 in

00:21:33.280 our

00:21:34.060 ancestors

00:21:34.520 have

00:21:34.740 any

00:21:34.980 sort

00:21:35.240 of

00:21:35.460 real

00:21:35.980 value

00:21:36.280 and

00:21:36.440 this

00:21:36.580 is

00:21:36.680 from

00:21:36.800 an

00:21:36.920 atheistic

00:21:37.340 perspective

00:21:37.700 but

00:21:37.880 if

00:21:37.960 I

00:21:38.040 take

00:21:38.200 a

00:21:38.320 religious

00:21:38.580 perspective

00:21:39.000 most

00:21:39.580 religions

00:21:40.000 believe

00:21:40.540 that

00:21:41.020 demons

00:21:41.340 can

00:21:41.660 use

00:21:41.900 positive

00:21:42.240 emotions

00:21:42.640 to

00:21:42.880 tempt

00:21:43.060 you

00:21:43.200 to

00:21:43.340 do

00:21:43.520 things

00:21:43.840 demons

00:21:44.680 can

00:21:45.020 even

00:21:45.180 use

00:21:45.420 love

00:21:45.700 to

00:21:45.880 tempt

00:21:46.040 you

00:21:46.160 to

00:21:54.680 Buddhism

00:21:55.100 which

00:21:55.360 you

00:21:55.620 did

00:21:55.760 talk

00:21:55.980 about

00:21:56.240 would

00:21:56.480 see

00:21:56.860 negative

00:21:57.680 emotions

00:21:58.160 as

00:21:59.100 like

00:21:59.360 an

00:21:59.620 intrinsic

00:22:00.100 sign

00:22:00.740 of

00:22:01.120 negativity

00:22:01.640 or

00:22:01.940 positive

00:22:02.260 emotions

00:22:02.660 as

00:22:02.860 an

00:22:02.980 intrinsic

00:22:03.300 sign

00:22:03.680 of

00:22:03.880 positivity

00:22:04.300 instead

00:22:05.040 what a

00:22:05.320 person

00:22:05.500 should

00:22:05.720 turn

00:22:05.920 to

00:22:06.080 is

00:22:06.220 their

00:22:06.340 own

00:22:06.540 logic

00:22:07.020 and

00:22:07.600 disinterested

00:22:08.780 logic

00:22:09.120 where

00:22:09.300 they

00:22:09.460 can't

00:22:10.400 yeah

00:22:10.620 to

00:22:11.560 summarize

00:22:11.960 the

00:22:12.680 most

00:22:12.920 common

00:22:13.340 forms

00:22:13.940 of

00:22:14.240 negative

00:22:14.700 utilitarianism

00:22:15.720 as used

00:22:16.440 to argue

00:22:16.840 for

00:22:17.120 antinatalist

00:22:17.760 positions

00:22:18.200 believe

00:22:19.040 that

00:22:19.560 positive

00:22:20.240 emotions

00:22:20.760 hold

00:22:21.440 no

00:22:21.860 value

00:22:22.320 but

00:22:22.780 that

00:22:22.980 negative

00:22:23.320 emotions

00:22:23.840 hold

00:22:24.500 a

00:22:24.720 negative

00:22:25.020 value

00:22:25.460 and

00:22:26.020 that

00:22:26.180 we

00:22:26.320 should

00:22:26.500 attempt

00:22:26.840 to

00:22:27.180 minimize

00:22:27.640 negative

00:22:28.380 emotions

00:22:28.880 in the

00:22:29.220 universe

00:22:29.600 well

00:22:30.000 so

00:22:30.180 malcolm

00:22:30.580 why

00:22:31.300 do

00:22:31.540 antinatalists

00:22:32.540 not

00:22:32.960 want

00:22:33.240 to

00:22:33.420 kill

00:22:33.580 themselves

00:22:33.980 because

00:22:34.260 it

00:22:34.400 would

00:22:34.560 seem

00:22:35.060 to

00:22:36.200 an

00:22:36.340 outsider

00:22:36.740 illogical

00:22:37.580 that

00:22:38.140 if

00:22:38.500 life

00:22:39.100 is

00:22:39.280 mostly

00:22:39.600 suffering

00:22:40.080 you

00:22:40.400 wouldn't

00:22:40.720 just

00:22:40.940 kill

00:22:41.180 yourself

00:22:41.680 because

00:22:42.240 the

00:22:42.880 good

00:22:43.220 that

00:22:43.440 you

00:22:43.560 feel

00:22:44.040 won't

00:22:44.640 outweigh

00:22:45.680 the

00:22:45.920 suffering

00:22:46.280 and

00:22:46.900 this

00:22:47.060 is

00:22:47.160 something

00:22:47.320 that

00:22:47.520 antinatalists

00:22:48.200 argue

00:22:48.600 really

00:22:49.400 intensely

00:22:50.120 and

00:22:50.940 I

00:22:51.160 genuinely

00:22:52.220 think

00:22:52.760 that

00:22:52.980 their

00:22:53.120 arguments

00:22:53.480 here

00:22:53.740 are

00:22:53.860 the

00:22:54.000 weakest

00:22:54.260 of

00:22:54.520 all

00:22:54.660 of

00:22:54.760 their

00:22:54.860 arguments

00:22:55.220 what

00:22:55.960 they'll

00:22:56.180 say

00:22:56.520 is

00:22:57.020 once

00:22:57.620 you

00:22:57.780 exist

00:22:58.080 you

00:22:58.260 have

00:22:58.480 a

00:22:58.740 reason

00:22:59.200 and

00:22:59.460 interest

00:22:59.820 to

00:23:00.000 continue

00:23:00.280 existing

00:23:00.680 this

00:23:01.540 requires

00:23:01.880 a

00:23:02.100 very

00:23:02.360 specific

00:23:02.960 belief

00:23:03.460 about

00:23:04.000 how

00:23:04.240 time

00:23:04.660 works

00:23:04.980 in

00:23:05.160 order

00:23:05.340 to

00:23:05.540 be

00:23:05.680 true

00:23:05.960 it

00:23:06.320 requires

00:23:06.660 human

00:23:06.960 existence

00:23:07.340 to be

00:23:07.820 completely

00:23:08.320 binary

00:23:08.780 either

00:23:09.500 a

00:23:09.680 human

00:23:09.880 exists

00:23:10.500 fully

00:23:10.980 or

00:23:11.540 the

00:23:11.680 human

00:23:11.860 doesn't

00:23:12.240 exist

00:23:12.580 at

00:23:12.880 all

00:23:13.160 there

00:23:13.500 is

00:23:13.740 no

00:23:14.000 potentiality

00:23:14.940 of

00:23:15.080 existence

00:23:15.580 to

00:23:15.980 someone

00:23:16.200 making

00:23:16.500 this

00:23:16.740 argument

00:23:17.100 new

00:23:17.640 moments

00:23:17.960 are

00:23:18.100 like

00:23:18.360 poof

00:23:18.780 created

00:23:19.740 out of

00:23:20.360 thin air

00:23:20.640 like

00:23:20.820 magic

00:23:21.180 the

00:23:21.700 future

00:23:21.960 does

00:23:22.320 not

00:23:22.480 exist

00:23:22.860 in a

00:23:23.480 meaningful

00:23:23.800 way

00:23:24.260 until

00:23:24.860 it

00:23:25.040 is

00:23:25.160 actualized

00:23:25.880 per

00:23:26.580 our

00:23:26.840 view

00:23:27.080 every

00:23:27.380 decision

00:23:27.740 you

00:23:27.920 make

00:23:28.180 determines

00:23:28.580 which

00:23:28.820 of

00:23:28.980 countless

00:23:29.280 potential

00:23:29.620 futures

00:23:29.920 exist

00:23:30.340 with

00:23:30.840 every

00:23:31.140 decision

00:23:31.480 you

00:23:31.680 functionally

00:23:32.120 erase

00:23:32.520 whatever

00:23:32.820 futures

00:23:33.160 you did

00:23:33.420 not

00:23:33.600 choose

00:23:33.940 you

00:23:34.380 are

00:23:34.520 simultaneously

00:23:35.020 responsible

00:23:35.720 for

00:23:36.200 everything

00:23:36.520 you

00:23:36.760 did

00:23:37.120 and

00:23:37.480 did

00:23:37.640 not

00:23:37.900 set

00:23:38.100 in

00:23:38.220 motion

00:23:38.440 with

00:23:38.740 your

00:23:38.860 decisions

00:23:39.260 for

00:23:39.800 example

00:23:40.180 if

00:23:40.780 we

00:23:40.960 have

00:23:41.140 the

00:23:41.260 capability

00:23:41.640 to

00:23:41.860 build

00:23:42.000 a

00:23:42.100 hospital

00:23:42.380 and

00:23:42.740 we

00:23:42.880 choose

00:23:43.100 to

00:23:43.280 just

00:23:43.540 sit

00:23:43.840 around

00:23:44.060 and

00:23:44.180 play

00:23:44.300 video

00:23:44.560 games

00:23:44.900 we

00:23:45.300 deny

00:23:45.640 that

00:23:45.880 hospital's

00:23:46.340 existence

00:23:46.660 and are

00:23:47.220 morally

00:23:47.540 culpable

00:23:47.980 for the

00:23:48.360 results

00:23:48.640 of that

00:23:48.900 decision

00:23:49.240 the

00:23:49.700 hospital's

00:23:50.180 moral

00:23:50.400 value

00:23:50.840 does

00:23:51.260 not

00:23:51.480 pop

00:23:51.760 into

00:23:52.000 existence

00:23:52.520 only

00:23:53.060 after

00:23:53.400 the

00:23:53.560 first

00:23:53.740 stone

00:23:53.940 is

00:23:54.080 laid

00:23:54.280 what's

00:23:54.740 really

00:23:55.320 interesting

00:23:56.040 about

00:23:56.380 this

00:23:56.720 argument

00:23:57.480 that

00:23:57.660 antinatalists

00:23:58.180 use

00:23:58.500 is

00:23:59.140 it

00:23:59.260 mirrors

00:23:59.640 the

00:23:59.880 belief

00:24:00.200 of

00:24:00.400 those

00:24:00.740 who

00:24:01.100 think

00:24:01.320 it

00:24:01.460 is

00:24:01.600 sinful

00:24:01.880 to

00:24:02.160 spill

00:24:02.500 seed

00:24:03.080 or

00:24:03.560 that

00:24:03.760 life

00:24:04.000 begins

00:24:04.380 at

00:24:04.540 conception

00:24:04.940 all

00:24:05.900 potential

00:24:06.420 life

00:24:06.900 has

00:24:07.160 value

00:24:07.660 from

00:24:08.260 our

00:24:08.580 cultural

00:24:08.920 perspective

00:24:09.460 it

00:24:09.920 strikes

00:24:10.220 us

00:24:10.440 as

00:24:10.720 bizarre

00:24:11.340 that

00:24:11.940 people

00:24:12.280 would

00:24:12.520 fixate

00:24:13.040 on

00:24:13.240 arbitrary

00:24:13.720 thresholds

00:24:14.520 like

00:24:14.720 sperm

00:24:15.200 or

00:24:15.640 embryo

00:24:16.260 or the

00:24:16.660 moment

00:24:16.900 the

00:24:17.060 baby's

00:24:17.340 head

00:24:17.460 up

00:24:17.580 or the

00:24:18.380 moment

00:24:18.700 it's

00:24:19.140 fully

00:24:19.360 not

00:24:19.600 myelinated

00:24:20.080 it's

00:24:20.400 very

00:24:20.740 interesting

00:24:21.320 to me

00:24:21.840 how

00:24:22.360 the

00:24:22.640 antinatalist

00:24:23.760 perspective

00:24:24.480 is very

00:24:25.920 similar

00:24:26.480 in how

00:24:26.980 they view

00:24:27.420 how life

00:24:28.120 works

00:24:28.500 and how

00:24:29.200 time

00:24:29.620 works

00:24:29.940 to the

00:24:30.560 pro-life

00:24:31.080 perspective

00:24:31.560 which is

00:24:32.460 very

00:24:32.700 different

00:24:33.180 from

00:24:33.440 our

00:24:33.660 perspective

00:24:34.380 when we

00:24:34.700 use the

00:24:35.140 term

00:24:35.380 pro-life

00:24:35.880 here

00:24:36.120 and in

00:24:36.480 other

00:24:36.740 parts

00:24:37.060 of this

00:24:37.540 particular

00:24:38.060 podcast

00:24:38.460 we're

00:24:39.100 talking

00:24:39.320 about

00:24:39.480 a

00:24:39.640 very

00:24:39.940 narrow

00:24:40.620 pro-life

00:24:41.240 position

00:24:41.700 not

00:24:42.340 the

00:24:42.680 majority

00:24:43.020 of the

00:24:43.300 pro-life

00:24:43.700 movement

00:24:44.040 which we

00:24:44.680 might be

00:24:45.120 considered

00:24:45.460 on

00:24:45.900 specifically

00:24:46.720 the

00:24:47.560 belief

00:24:48.380 that

00:24:49.000 once

00:24:49.600 a

00:24:50.100 egg

00:24:50.540 is

00:24:50.860 fertilized

00:24:51.740 it is

00:24:52.460 100%

00:24:53.500 a full

00:24:54.020 human

00:24:54.320 and

00:24:54.920 before

00:24:55.240 it is

00:24:55.520 fertilized

00:24:56.240 it has

00:24:57.000 absolutely

00:24:57.600 no rights

00:24:58.140 at all

00:24:58.620 e.g.

00:24:59.640 that you

00:25:00.040 have

00:25:00.460 no moral

00:25:01.380 cost

00:25:01.800 if right

00:25:02.480 before a

00:25:03.000 sperm

00:25:03.220 hits an

00:25:03.600 egg

00:25:03.820 you prevent

00:25:04.440 it from

00:25:04.740 fertilizing

00:25:05.220 the egg

00:25:05.600 but you

00:25:06.160 are killing

00:25:06.580 a human

00:25:07.000 if you

00:25:08.000 squash the

00:25:08.860 egg immediately

00:25:09.360 after it's

00:25:09.880 fertilized

00:25:10.380 where to

00:25:11.160 us

00:25:11.620 those two

00:25:12.420 things would be

00:25:13.000 almost exactly

00:25:13.920 equal moral

00:25:14.780 actions

00:25:15.620 and almost

00:25:16.140 exactly equally

00:25:17.020 evil

00:25:17.380 because both

00:25:18.180 actions prevent

00:25:19.040 a human who

00:25:19.660 would have been

00:25:20.140 born had you not

00:25:20.980 intervened from

00:25:21.740 being born

00:25:22.200 and as to why we

00:25:23.400 hold this perspective

00:25:24.060 I can use a little

00:25:25.520 thought experiment

00:25:26.160 right

00:25:26.560 if I put a

00:25:28.700 claymore which is a

00:25:29.760 type of explosive

00:25:30.540 behind a door

00:25:31.500 and that

00:25:32.760 claymore

00:25:33.260 explodes

00:25:33.980 when somebody

00:25:34.720 opens it

00:25:35.360 but that person

00:25:37.040 hasn't been born

00:25:37.820 yet

00:25:38.180 I'm not morally

00:25:39.440 culpable for that

00:25:40.300 that seems really

00:25:41.560 weird

00:25:41.920 that doesn't seem

00:25:43.000 true to me

00:25:43.460 that

00:25:43.720 you know

00:25:45.840 if you do

00:25:47.820 something that

00:25:48.540 removes potential

00:25:49.860 agency

00:25:50.440 and this is the

00:25:51.320 thing

00:25:51.500 while we don't

00:25:52.100 think that

00:25:52.860 happiness

00:25:53.840 or sadness

00:25:55.100 really has value

00:25:55.760 we do think that

00:25:56.440 agency has value

00:25:57.260 an individual's

00:25:57.860 choice to live

00:25:58.680 has value

00:25:59.140 and when we

00:26:00.720 remove that

00:26:01.780 potential choice

00:26:02.520 from an

00:26:02.820 individual

00:26:03.140 we are okay

00:26:04.080 with suicide

00:26:04.600 if a person

00:26:05.740 with their own

00:26:06.540 agency decides

00:26:07.680 to kill themselves

00:26:08.480 that's one thing

00:26:09.480 if I make

00:26:10.740 actions that

00:26:11.780 choose to

00:26:12.440 so I could

00:26:13.560 experience more

00:26:14.360 hedonic pleasure

00:26:15.120 within my life

00:26:16.200 not bring

00:26:17.480 a potentially

00:26:18.480 sentient being

00:26:19.620 into this world

00:26:20.360 who would have

00:26:21.000 wanted to exist

00:26:21.660 and would have

00:26:22.480 loved their life

00:26:23.120 and would have

00:26:23.600 said I really

00:26:24.200 want to exist

00:26:24.880 I have robbed

00:26:25.980 that being of

00:26:26.520 agency just as

00:26:27.460 much as if I

00:26:27.960 put a claymore

00:26:28.760 behind a door

00:26:29.320 and they walk

00:26:29.860 into it

00:26:30.320 years later

00:26:31.100 you are morally

00:26:32.060 culpable for

00:26:32.720 things even if

00:26:33.660 they don't happen

00:26:34.240 during your

00:26:34.680 lifetime

00:26:35.020 so if that

00:26:35.560 claymore exists

00:26:36.280 and I die

00:26:36.900 and that door

00:26:37.960 doesn't get

00:26:38.300 opened by

00:26:39.240 archaeologists

00:26:40.040 until 500

00:26:40.740 years later

00:26:41.320 I'm still morally

00:26:42.540 culpable for that

00:26:43.300 action

00:26:43.600 exactly

00:26:44.100 if as an

00:26:45.300 antinatalist

00:26:45.900 you do hold

00:26:46.980 that the

00:26:47.400 claymore thought

00:26:48.100 experiment is

00:26:48.940 an immoral

00:26:49.680 action

00:26:50.140 then

00:26:50.920 you're forced

00:26:51.500 to believe

00:26:51.980 if action

00:26:52.820 z by person

00:26:53.660 y

00:26:54.080 robs the

00:26:54.900 agency of

00:26:55.400 person x

00:26:55.960 at future

00:26:56.400 time t

00:26:56.980 it is morally

00:26:58.020 wrong

00:26:58.580 with the

00:26:59.400 caveat

00:26:59.780 that this

00:27:00.580 is not

00:27:01.140 true

00:27:01.520 if action

00:27:02.300 z was tied

00:27:03.300 to the

00:27:03.540 conception

00:27:03.980 of person

00:27:04.760 x

00:27:05.120 I think

00:27:06.200 most antinatalists

00:27:06.760 actually wouldn't

00:27:07.200 bite the

00:27:07.460 bullet on the

00:27:07.820 above thought

00:27:08.200 experiment that I

00:27:08.800 made

00:27:09.020 they'd say

00:27:09.700 actually it

00:27:10.300 is morally

00:27:10.980 wrong to

00:27:11.800 put a claymore

00:27:12.460 behind a

00:27:12.840 door that

00:27:13.220 somebody who

00:27:13.840 hasn't even

00:27:14.420 been conceived

00:27:14.880 yet would

00:27:16.040 step through

00:27:16.840 and it would

00:27:17.160 kill them

00:27:17.460 instantly

00:27:17.820 painlessly

00:27:18.300 that's what

00:27:18.680 we're assuming

00:27:19.000 here all

00:27:19.420 you're robbing

00:27:19.920 them of is

00:27:20.280 agency

00:27:20.660 right

00:27:21.100 and the

00:27:21.940 reason why

00:27:22.280 this is

00:27:22.560 important

00:27:22.960 is is

00:27:23.720 because then

00:27:24.340 why not kill

00:27:24.960 any existing

00:27:25.460 person if

00:27:26.240 it's painless

00:27:26.800 right

00:27:27.120 most antinatalists

00:27:27.960 would say

00:27:28.260 well we're

00:27:28.560 not for

00:27:28.920 killing people

00:27:29.860 painlessly

00:27:30.320 either

00:27:30.760 surprise

00:27:31.220 killing people

00:27:31.660 painlessly

00:27:31.920 some do

00:27:32.760 there's the

00:27:33.240 involuntary

00:27:33.740 antinatalist

00:27:34.260 movement

00:27:34.460 which in a way

00:27:35.140 I respect

00:27:35.560 because it's

00:27:35.960 much more

00:27:36.300 morally consistent

00:27:37.000 they believe

00:27:37.820 in forcefully

00:27:38.460 sterilizing people

00:27:39.260 yeah no and

00:27:40.040 if I were to

00:27:40.620 fully act on

00:27:41.520 my intuitions

00:27:42.280 that's what

00:27:42.720 I would do

00:27:43.200 like I would

00:27:44.040 yeah I would

00:27:44.500 I would sterilize

00:27:45.320 everyone just be

00:27:46.040 like end it

00:27:46.720 to clarify

00:27:47.520 act on your

00:27:48.080 intuitions not

00:27:48.720 your logic

00:27:49.300 yeah act on

00:27:50.140 yeah act on

00:27:51.000 act on my

00:27:51.580 intuitions not

00:27:52.160 my logic and

00:27:52.880 my non-consensual

00:27:54.220 intuitions by the

00:27:55.000 way

00:27:55.420 yeah but but

00:27:57.160 the point we're

00:27:57.880 making here is

00:27:58.400 okay was it a

00:27:59.200 claymore thought

00:27:59.700 experiment so this

00:28:00.320 claymore is robbing

00:28:01.200 someone of agency

00:28:01.740 in the future but

00:28:02.260 they haven't been

00:28:02.680 conceived yet so

00:28:03.720 then you have to

00:28:04.260 ask yourself okay

00:28:05.260 so robbing somebody

00:28:06.660 who doesn't exist

00:28:07.540 yet hasn't been

00:28:08.360 conceived yet of

00:28:09.120 agency is wrong

00:28:11.020 but it's not

00:28:12.900 wrong if the

00:28:13.900 way I rob them

00:28:15.080 of agency the

00:28:15.840 way I delete

00:28:16.780 them from the

00:28:17.260 timeline is in

00:28:19.060 some way tied to

00:28:19.980 their conception

00:28:20.460 like I'm killing

00:28:21.800 their embryo or

00:28:22.440 something like that

00:28:23.160 then it's not

00:28:24.300 wrong it is

00:28:24.940 wrong it just

00:28:27.540 seems like too

00:28:28.340 really specific of

00:28:29.720 a moral carve

00:28:30.460 out but it may

00:28:32.280 just be that

00:28:33.140 culturally the

00:28:34.000 way that Calvin

00:28:34.700 is see time as

00:28:35.860 predetermined is

00:28:37.560 so ingrained

00:28:39.020 in us that we

00:28:40.020 can't imagine

00:28:41.000 this sort of

00:28:42.120 self-incarnating

00:28:43.560 universe perspective

00:28:44.620 where I think a

00:28:45.720 lot more of the

00:28:46.500 antinatalist

00:28:47.040 perspective makes

00:28:47.660 true where in

00:28:48.960 no meaningful way

00:28:50.120 does anything in

00:28:50.840 the future exist

00:28:51.620 well hold on I

00:28:52.440 think it's actually

00:28:53.220 pretty easy if we

00:28:54.420 if we steel man

00:28:55.180 this but a

00:28:56.560 person who is

00:28:58.100 is getting blown

00:28:59.120 up by a claymore

00:29:00.120 as an adult versus

00:29:01.960 the idea of a

00:29:03.320 child or an

00:29:03.960 embryo is capable

00:29:05.480 of feeling a

00:29:06.420 great deal more

00:29:07.220 pain and suffering

00:29:08.120 in the moment

00:29:09.060 in the thought

00:29:09.720 experiment no

00:29:10.380 pain and suffering

00:29:10.940 they feel nothing

00:29:11.760 no one grieves

00:29:12.420 for them otherwise

00:29:13.080 you're cheating

00:29:13.640 okay okay okay

00:29:14.740 okay yeah yeah

00:29:15.700 there's there's no

00:29:16.620 difference okay so

00:29:17.700 thinking more about

00:29:18.480 this what they

00:29:18.920 might argue is

00:29:20.120 that the moment

00:29:20.840 an entity is

00:29:22.100 born now its

00:29:23.820 agency matters so

00:29:25.180 even if you rob

00:29:25.980 an entity that was

00:29:26.680 born's agency in

00:29:27.680 the future well

00:29:28.820 now that's a moral

00:29:29.820 wrong because they

00:29:31.280 had agency rights

00:29:33.120 at that point but

00:29:34.960 again here you

00:29:35.580 get into the

00:29:36.000 problem of existence

00:29:37.460 being binary at

00:29:38.600 what exact moment

00:29:39.880 does an entity get

00:29:41.340 these full agency

00:29:42.300 rights is it the

00:29:43.120 moment of conception

00:29:43.780 is it the moment of

00:29:44.840 the sperm and the

00:29:45.540 egg is it the

00:29:46.060 moment that they

00:29:46.680 first could have

00:29:48.320 been conceived is

00:29:49.360 it the moment

00:29:49.840 they're fully

00:29:50.300 myelinated what

00:29:51.320 they would probably

00:29:52.020 try to argue is

00:29:53.640 that well once an

00:29:55.180 entity has agency

00:29:56.300 then it has full

00:29:57.100 rights to that

00:29:57.760 agency the problem

00:29:59.840 of course being is

00:30:01.380 that humans don't

00:30:02.120 just pop have

00:30:02.940 agency out of

00:30:03.720 nowhere we

00:30:04.420 gradually develop

00:30:05.460 agency over time

00:30:06.940 and there's

00:30:07.520 potentiality to

00:30:08.360 that agency even

00:30:09.020 beforehand this

00:30:10.100 argument would

00:30:11.320 essentially mean

00:30:12.340 that the amount

00:30:13.540 of right that we

00:30:14.720 had to live was

00:30:16.200 proportional to

00:30:17.380 how much agency

00:30:18.240 we had in any

00:30:19.060 moment so like

00:30:20.240 killing a baby a

00:30:21.980 toddler or a

00:30:23.460 mentally impaired

00:30:24.120 person would be

00:30:25.440 much less morally

00:30:26.580 wrong than

00:30:27.640 killing a adult

00:30:28.940 which just seems

00:30:30.300 like a monstrous

00:30:31.460 position to hold

00:30:32.220 to me and very

00:30:33.240 obviously wrong

00:30:34.140 another really

00:30:35.520 weird implication

00:30:37.080 of holding to

00:30:38.300 this position is

00:30:39.700 that a sleeping

00:30:40.360 person well they

00:30:41.580 wouldn't have

00:30:42.000 agency when they're

00:30:42.840 asleep so you

00:30:44.220 could say there's

00:30:45.420 there's no moral

00:30:46.240 wrong to killing

00:30:47.140 them in their

00:30:47.680 sleep but then the

00:30:49.340 person would say

00:30:49.980 yeah but when they

00:30:51.240 wake up a bit

00:30:51.900 later then they'll

00:30:52.860 have agency but

00:30:54.260 you could also say

00:30:55.420 that was a baby

00:30:56.100 when they get older

00:30:57.240 a bit later they'll

00:30:58.440 have agency so

00:30:59.900 why does a sleeping

00:31:01.280 person have so much

00:31:02.460 more right to this

00:31:04.020 agency this entire

00:31:05.440 moral position just

00:31:07.020 feels really wrong

00:31:08.880 and almost like it's

00:31:10.240 specifically created

00:31:11.480 to allow whatever

00:31:13.240 form of life they're

00:31:14.100 living today to be

00:31:15.520 the type of life

00:31:16.620 maximally deserving

00:31:18.820 of self-determination

00:31:20.540 and all other forms

00:31:22.760 of life whether it's

00:31:23.980 a baby or a future

00:31:24.900 person or a mentally

00:31:26.160 disabled person to

00:31:27.440 have less inherent

00:31:29.100 right to self-determination

00:31:30.360 on the other hand

00:31:31.360 if you take the

00:31:32.160 position that after

00:31:33.060 some threshold all

00:31:34.880 entities have equal

00:31:36.440 and full access to

00:31:37.580 the right to

00:31:38.000 self-determination

00:31:38.760 it just seems very

00:31:41.020 very arbitrary to

00:31:42.760 grant an entity all

00:31:44.400 of these rights out

00:31:45.780 of nowhere but of

00:31:48.040 course there is a

00:31:48.780 workaround to this

00:31:49.820 which some negative

00:31:51.600 utilitarians buy into

00:31:53.000 which is just to say

00:31:54.640 that no entity ever

00:31:55.780 has rights to its

00:31:56.640 agency and that it is

00:31:57.740 never wrong if you

00:31:59.580 can painlessly kill

00:32:01.520 something without

00:32:02.780 hurting others who

00:32:04.380 have formed an

00:32:04.880 attachment to it so

00:32:05.980 at no point did

00:32:07.140 anything ever get

00:32:08.140 rights to its agency

00:32:09.180 that seems morally

00:32:10.660 consistent to me

00:32:11.520 well and i think that

00:32:12.400 this is again where

00:32:13.380 there's anti-natalists

00:32:14.840 that i respect and

00:32:15.560 what i don't the

00:32:16.260 ones who are like no

00:32:17.020 i don't think that we

00:32:17.640 should painlessly kill

00:32:18.420 everyone i generally

00:32:20.020 think that there really

00:32:20.900 is no good logical

00:32:22.960 way to get to that

00:32:23.580 perspective the ones

00:32:24.620 who bite the bullet on

00:32:25.440 that and say yes we

00:32:26.440 should painlessly kill

00:32:27.340 everyone i'm like you

00:32:29.120 from my cultural

00:32:30.400 perspective you are

00:32:31.620 super evil and a

00:32:32.600 threat to my family

00:32:33.400 logically consistent

00:32:34.320 but logically

00:32:35.120 consistent and i can

00:32:36.320 respect a person who's

00:32:37.380 logically consistent

00:32:38.100 when it causes them to

00:32:38.800 be shamed by society

00:32:39.720 that's what we do

00:32:40.680 that's what this

00:32:41.140 channel's all about

00:32:42.040 so in a way i really

00:32:44.260 respect that aspect of

00:32:46.640 the anti-natalist

00:32:47.460 movement even if one

00:32:48.940 day they're gonna have

00:32:49.500 to go however i would

00:32:51.020 argue that the takeaway

00:32:52.920 that they grab from

00:32:54.500 suffering is a moral

00:32:55.780 negative but happiness

00:32:56.840 isn't a moral positive

00:32:57.940 it is my mandate as a

00:32:59.680 sentient entity to

00:33:01.020 reduce suffering in the

00:33:02.040 world and then they say

00:33:03.100 okay we need to

00:33:03.740 painlessly delete all

00:33:04.860 humans that's probably

00:33:06.600 the wrong takeaway

00:33:07.380 because if there's even

00:33:08.760 a chance that another

00:33:09.740 species or other life

00:33:11.760 on earth could

00:33:12.300 eventually evolve into a

00:33:13.280 sentient entity and

00:33:13.940 spread throughout the

00:33:14.360 universe it would

00:33:15.440 experience infinite more

00:33:16.600 suffering than we could

00:33:17.720 ever have so what you

00:33:18.940 would really need to do

00:33:19.860 is have kids and raise

00:33:23.780 those kids and you're a

00:33:24.920 race suffering cult go

00:33:26.980 take to the stars and

00:33:28.800 systematically eradicate

00:33:30.260 all other sentient life

00:33:31.560 from the universe and

00:33:32.760 then you can safely stop

00:33:34.860 your crusade because if

00:33:37.200 another species ends up

00:33:38.560 spreading in the universe

00:33:39.520 just the amount of

00:33:41.320 suffering that they will

00:33:42.840 feel is so so so so so

00:33:45.640 much higher than anything

00:33:47.100 tied to the triviality of

00:33:48.240 earth it's not worth taking

00:33:49.720 the risk that that could

00:33:50.580 happen so you really don't

00:33:52.680 get to delete the human

00:33:53.760 species until you have

00:33:55.120 surveyed the universe and

00:33:56.180 ensure there is no other

00:33:57.160 sentient life which you

00:33:58.700 would then go kill and

00:33:59.660 who knows maybe there's

00:34:00.800 some negative utilitarian

00:34:02.180 species out there that

00:34:03.260 explains the fermi paradox

00:34:04.640 ensuring that sentient life

00:34:06.760 never spreads that is i

00:34:08.480 think the truly logical

00:34:10.120 outcome of this

00:34:11.300 antinatalist position not we

00:34:13.780 need to stop humans from

00:34:15.020 having kids however that

00:34:16.900 this hasn't been apparent to

00:34:18.200 any antinatalist group i

00:34:20.100 think is telling about what

00:34:22.460 is really motivating their

00:34:24.000 philosophical position

00:34:25.040 antinatalists also use the

00:34:27.080 asymmetry argument so which

00:34:28.680 essentially is that

00:34:29.500 preventing happiness by not

00:34:31.380 creating life has no

00:34:32.340 downside you're only doing a

00:34:34.220 good thing whereas

00:34:35.180 preventing suffering by not

00:34:37.200 creating life is good so

00:34:39.300 this arbitrarily divides

00:34:41.180 people into existing and

00:34:43.340 not existing which again is

00:34:45.340 not something that at least

00:34:46.900 per our framework of reality

00:34:48.420 this is just not correct but

00:34:50.260 someone else's framework of

00:34:51.480 understanding reality and

00:34:52.780 time this could be correct

00:34:54.820 let's spend a bit more time

00:34:56.580 on this argument because i

00:34:57.400 actually think it's the best

00:34:58.700 of all of the arguments

00:34:59.640 they make so it goes like

00:35:01.140 this in condition a baby is

00:35:03.460 born it is bad for someone

00:35:05.520 who does exist to feel

00:35:06.940 suffering it is good for

00:35:08.740 someone who does exist to

00:35:10.140 feel happiness that's what

00:35:11.140 they would say about condition

00:35:11.900 a where baby is born in

00:35:13.440 condition b baby is not born it

00:35:15.640 is good to prevent someone

00:35:17.020 from existing who would have

00:35:18.440 felt suffering it is not bad to

00:35:21.180 prevent someone from

00:35:21.900 existing who would have

00:35:23.100 felt happiness and again

00:35:25.720 this requires a binary

00:35:26.800 existence of humanity for

00:35:28.260 this to work very similar to

00:35:29.740 the way pro-lifers see

00:35:31.200 humanity a thought

00:35:32.460 experiment that they may use

00:35:33.420 that may may click with

00:35:34.440 people more is the island

00:35:35.420 thought experiment so if you

00:35:37.200 go to an island like you

00:35:38.300 find an island that you

00:35:38.920 didn't know exists before in a

00:35:39.740 population group that you

00:35:40.560 didn't know exists before and

00:35:42.380 they are suffering you would

00:35:43.980 think oh well the world's the

00:35:45.580 worst place than i thought i

00:35:46.700 was if you go and you find

00:35:48.440 that island and there's

00:35:50.240 nobody on it then because

00:35:52.580 there's nobody on it there's

00:35:53.260 nobody feeling happiness you

00:35:54.900 don't then think oh the world

00:35:56.020 is a less happy place than

00:35:57.580 than i assumed it was but

00:35:59.740 again this assumes that

00:36:01.740 existence is a binary thing

00:36:03.360 suppose you found on that

00:36:05.340 island archaeological evidence

00:36:07.680 that a culture had existed

00:36:08.820 there very very recently and

00:36:10.320 they were a very happy

00:36:11.160 culture so happy in fact that

00:36:12.660 they didn't believe in negative

00:36:13.960 emotions at all they just

00:36:15.540 didn't feel negative emotions

00:36:17.100 and they had actually gone

00:36:19.160 sterile due to a recent

00:36:21.200 nuclear testing on like a

00:36:22.320 nearby island and and they

00:36:23.600 went extinct as a people

00:36:24.780 so in this thought experiment

00:36:26.420 because of their unique

00:36:27.300 culture no negative emotions

00:36:29.020 have been felt as a result of

00:36:30.800 this sterilization event this

00:36:31.920 sterilization event was

00:36:32.900 without any negative emotions

00:36:34.420 just a lack of positive

00:36:35.520 emotions i would view that as

00:36:37.640 a bad thing i would say that

00:36:39.120 that nuclear testing was a bad

00:36:40.940 thing it it and what we're

00:36:44.220 seeing here is that there was

00:36:46.280 potentiality to have people on

00:36:48.020 that island in this scenario

00:36:48.920 and their scenario they create

00:36:50.940 an island in which there really

00:36:52.160 was no potentiality that people

00:36:53.860 existed on it in our scenario

00:36:55.720 we're viewing humanity as a

00:36:57.920 potentiality spectrum and they

00:37:00.480 become a more human the closer

00:37:02.040 they get to realizing their birth

00:37:04.280 for us when it comes to a fetus

00:37:06.260 existing or not if i make a

00:37:08.560 decision that prevents somebody

00:37:10.460 else from creating a baby right

00:37:14.460 even if i make that decision

00:37:16.160 before the sperm and the egg were

00:37:18.460 individually created i am just as

00:37:21.660 morally culpable from my cultural

00:37:23.440 perspective as i am if i terminate

00:37:25.600 an embryo because in both scenarios

00:37:27.800 i prevented a human being who had

00:37:29.940 agency from coming to exist that you

00:37:31.820 you made a choice and in the end in

00:37:34.280 20 years from now there's a person

00:37:36.100 or there's not a person it doesn't

00:37:37.440 depend on when you made the choice

00:37:38.660 you made the choice right yeah it

00:37:40.520 feels really weaselly to try to get

00:37:42.300 out of that like i can know that if

00:37:43.760 somebody was like okay i'm gonna

00:37:44.640 ban ivf then my kids like kids who

00:37:46.320 i've interacted with they don't

00:37:47.500 exist and this actually matters

00:37:49.460 when it comes to some of our beef

00:37:50.860 with other conservative groups that

00:37:52.360 think life begins at conception

00:37:54.360 because that means that they don't

00:37:56.000 use ivf which for example if we

00:37:58.080 didn't use ivf we wouldn't have

00:37:59.120 kids but even families who can

00:38:01.280 broadly have kids it would mean that

00:38:02.540 many of them would have fewer kids

00:38:03.980 because ivf increases a person's

00:38:05.520 fertility with them so to us those

00:38:08.040 cultures are functionally killing

00:38:09.480 kids if you are having trouble

00:38:10.980 understanding this concept i can try to

00:38:13.100 explain in a different way so from the

00:38:16.060 perspective of somebody who believes

00:38:17.940 life begins at conception if a mugger

00:38:20.920 came up and shot a woman who had just

00:38:24.400 been inseminated that mugger has killed

00:38:27.380 two people however to us if that mugger

00:38:30.860 came up the day before that woman would

00:38:33.760 have become inseminated and he kills that

00:38:35.800 woman he has still killed two people

00:38:38.040 and that is because we believe that

00:38:41.160 god can see the future and therefore

00:38:43.420 from god's perspective that woman would

00:38:46.020 have become inseminated had that external

00:38:48.460 event not happened now when we say god

00:38:50.880 we can mean in a theological context or

00:38:52.960 in our sense we would mean like the

00:38:54.080 laws of physics the laws of physics were

00:38:55.860 going to play out as the laws of physics

00:38:57.340 were going to play out so that woman was

00:38:58.920 going to become inseminated this view on

00:39:00.920 time pushes back when moral responsibility

00:39:03.480 for life begins and in so doing can make

00:39:07.720 the actions of some other cultural groups

00:39:10.060 like convincing a woman who was planning

00:39:12.640 to get ivf not to the moral equivalent of

00:39:15.500 talking somebody in to getting an abortion

00:39:17.300 now we take the cultural perspective of

00:39:21.140 it's not our job to police what your culture

00:39:23.700 does with its kids and i think as soon as

00:39:25.680 you do that as soon as you assume that

00:39:27.200 your culture is morally superior to other

00:39:28.660 cultures and try to act on those other

00:39:29.920 cultures you enter the world of potential

00:39:32.580 evil and i respect the spirit with which

00:39:35.500 they believe what they believe they're

00:39:36.720 they're trying to do the same thing that

00:39:38.720 we're trying to do they just have a

00:39:40.080 different belief about how human existence

00:39:41.800 works i just think it's a little squirrely

00:39:44.160 to say i'm not morally culpable for a

00:39:46.200 decision that prevented a kid from being

00:39:47.500 born just because the sperm and the egg

00:39:49.460 that eventually created that kid didn't

00:39:50.940 exist yet yeah that does that feel wrong

00:39:54.340 to you i in this in this i have to

00:39:58.300 respect the view that other people have

00:40:00.240 it's just that per our understanding of

00:40:01.920 reality it's not correct but i respect that

00:40:04.360 other people have come to a logical conclusion

00:40:06.100 there another implication of this position

00:40:08.220 specifically the anti-natalist asymmetry

00:40:11.480 argument position just to help you

00:40:13.320 understand why as outsiders we struggle

00:40:16.100 with it is that a universe or a

00:40:18.880 civilization of people who only feel

00:40:21.320 positive emotions or neutral emotions so

00:40:23.660 it's it's all just either neutral or plus

00:40:25.600 it has no moral weight or value that is

00:40:30.180 better than a completely empty universe with

00:40:33.680 no people with no sentience no sapience no

00:40:36.140 positive feelings at all that they are

00:40:38.020 exactly equal and that an anti-natalist would

00:40:40.180 be like meh like it could be either um yeah

00:40:42.860 it seems insane to me that a universe

00:40:45.240 teaming with happy pluralistic life that

00:40:49.840 thriving has exactly the same value as a

00:40:52.800 completely cold and dead universe that's

00:40:55.580 the thing you have to accept with the

00:40:57.280 asymmetry argument that i think just drains

00:41:00.560 plausibility for me it doesn't feel like a

00:41:03.620 rational person would say that that was

00:41:05.700 true unless they were coming from a

00:41:07.940 cultural perspective that biased them in

00:41:10.500 that direction and i admit that our cultural

00:41:12.300 perspective biases that's in the other

00:41:13.420 direction or they personally were trying to

00:41:16.980 justify a lifestyle that they were already

00:41:18.460 yeah and i think that brings us to one of

00:41:21.200 our biggest beefs with anti-natalism in

00:41:23.260 general which is that this is a very

00:41:24.820 intuitively driven philosophy we alluded

00:41:27.760 to the significant portion of the community

00:41:29.860 that is pretty severely depressed but

00:41:32.420 there's also just like some both childhood

00:41:36.020 based but i would say also perfectly adult

00:41:38.820 based intuitions that would lead someone

00:41:41.340 to be anti-natalist and i i personally

00:41:43.520 really experienced this after becoming a

00:41:45.720 mother like i cannot emotionally

00:41:48.420 deal with suffering the way that i used to be

00:41:52.460 able to deal with it or just kind of like

00:41:53.760 write it off and ignore it especially if if a

00:41:56.920 child is suffering or i know a child has

00:41:59.540 suffered or may suffer or is suffering i i will

00:42:02.800 break into tears i will not be able to do

00:42:04.640 anything and now even i'll look at a

00:42:07.020 homeless person on the streets and i'll

00:42:08.580 picture them as a child and i will start

00:42:10.820 like oh yep okay um i have to start

00:42:14.880 thinking about other things yeah uh like it

00:42:17.140 is it is deeply hard for me and if i if i get

00:42:19.720 exposed to that too much and and i think about

00:42:22.340 the amount of suffering that takes place in the

00:42:23.980 world as you can see this is a deeply

00:42:26.960 intuitive um deep set like gut reaction that's

00:42:31.180 happening in me i have no logical control over

00:42:33.080 this and this makes me come to a conclusion

00:42:35.940 when i feel this suffering when i feel this gut

00:42:37.960 reaction because humans are designed to be

00:42:40.180 empathetic one of my like frustrated throw up

00:42:44.140 your hands can't deal with this pain i'm feeling

00:42:46.280 right now reactions is i just wish humans didn't

00:42:49.020 exist i just wish that none of us existed to feel

00:42:51.220 this suffering this is too much i can't deal with this

00:42:52.840 right now it is it is that kind of conclusion

00:42:55.800 and i think that that's that's that's fine that is that is

00:43:00.560 an expected intuitive reaction but it also isn't driven by logic

00:43:05.680 and it also it's not in alignment with with my values with my

00:43:09.740 understanding of the the universe and it's also something like

00:43:12.280 drift like heated and driven in the moment that is not really going to lead

00:43:16.220 to outcomes that i value well yeah so i think what you're saying

00:43:20.380 here is you can emotionally understand their perspective

00:43:23.320 yes and even emotionally understanding it and understanding why it's appealing

00:43:27.740 you logically disagree with it yeah i logically i logically disagree with it

00:43:32.560 because of course when i logically step back and i look at what we value and i also

00:43:36.000 look at how we understand like humans to function like there is a reason we

00:43:40.340 we feel both pain and pleasure for very clear reasons um you know just

00:43:45.580 like ai has signals of oh you're you're you're doing something right or you're

00:43:48.860 doing something wrong we have signals that show that we're doing something

00:43:51.540 right or we're doing something wrong those signals are key in our survival and

00:43:55.060 so all these things that we're feeling are just signals that are important in

00:43:58.500 our survival and i very much that humans exist i love that sapience is out

00:44:02.700 there in the universe i think that we're doing amazing things and we need

00:44:06.140 signals to be able to continue to do amazing things and maybe someday

00:44:09.160 ai will help us innovate other ways to experience these signals in a way that

00:44:12.560 doesn't cause the same amount of visceral suffering

00:44:14.800 a meaningless suffering that i find to be incredibly difficult to deal with

00:44:19.560 emotionally but we're not even going to get to that point

00:44:22.700 if we if we extinguish ourselves there there's just so much lost potential and

00:44:27.440 there's also so much lost like you were alluding to earlier right we have no

00:44:33.140 more within ever within our grasp the ability to shape and create a future of

00:44:37.880 humanity that does not experience meaningless suffering we can do that and we

00:44:43.820 there could be billions more humans across the universe in in in however many

00:44:50.040 hundreds different from humans superior to humans that that that that that also feel

00:44:55.800 like orders of magnitude more pleasure than we feel now so if if we want to be

00:45:00.420 utility accountants and you and i aren't by the way we wouldn't want this i'm just

00:45:03.900 saying from their perspective from their perspective like the and and we would we

00:45:08.720 don't like the idea that that you don't get any points for like positivity but you

00:45:12.620 can have the ratio of of net positivity of humans experiencing pleasure and

00:45:18.780 elation and curiosity and exploration and all these things versus suffering that has

00:45:23.620 happened throughout all of human history by all the human population that is

00:45:27.020 extant today until we you know resolve this problem it's just like such an

00:45:31.740 obvious yes that we should push through well right you're talking about these

00:45:35.080 emotions that you felt as a mom and the way that your body hijacked you i think it's

00:45:39.580 important to remember that another way that our body hijacks us is when we are

00:45:43.740 young and we are developing our identity unfortunately that this coincides and we

00:45:47.900 develop our identity within our current culture our body is telling us to not have

00:45:51.140 kids it's telling us that kids are gross especially the kids who are going to

00:45:54.120 interact with which are the kids of other people biologically when you are

00:45:57.780 young when you are developing your identity most people think that they are

00:46:00.900 not kid people because they work that into their identity during their teenage

00:46:06.000 years during their college years and i've noticed that usually when people turn

00:46:10.500 to antinatalism it's during that period of their life when they are hugely biased

00:46:15.420 emotionally towards not wanting kids and then they they drop the antinatalist mindset as

00:46:21.660 they get older or more emotionally healthy which is another thing that i've seen as

00:46:25.280 i've seen antinatalist when they're no longer depressed they stop being antinatalist and

00:46:29.280 i don't see that many other beliefs where people only really feel them when they're

00:46:33.020 depressed and it's why the antinatalist community is so adamant that they're actually

00:46:37.980 happy people because this is just so transparent when you look at their threads as like

00:46:42.520 a major problem in the community and it's really sad but part of me is it might be a

00:46:47.700 good thing if you have because of cultural reasons largely outside of your control the

00:46:52.840 erosion of our cultural institutions the people who live in like harder cultures typically are

00:46:57.020 more satisfied with their lives and the people who turn to this are people who live in cultural

00:47:01.100 situations where the erosion of cultural institutions has created an environment where due to no fault of

00:47:07.980 their own they are really despondent and they feel like they have no hope for the future often because

00:47:12.980 they don't really have hope for the future and if we rob them of this if we say you you don't get to

00:47:19.800 believe this right then they have to take more culpability for their actions they need to take

00:47:24.480 more culpability of the things they haven't done in life to try to get over the place that they're in

00:47:28.980 right now and so in a way i feel like the how logically sound antinatalism can sound can be a kindness to

00:47:36.460 these people and that we need to remember that that for some people even if they did tomorrow like

00:47:42.300 really realize a pronatalist perspective they wouldn't be able to live it out so why would i

00:47:46.980 want to convince somebody like that like that i while i don't think suffering has value i do think

00:47:51.820 it has enough marginal value that i wouldn't want to just impose it on someone if it offered absolutely

00:47:57.700 no utility to the world so whatever like i don't and that's another thing about the antinatalist

00:48:02.320 groups i really get annoyed when people make like dumb arguments like pronatalism is racist

00:48:06.100 or pronatalism is like anti-environment or something like that when people make antinatalism

00:48:10.560 for this argument i i i'm like depending on your priors it may be true this may be so if you take

00:48:18.720 on the position that future humans don't matter at all no human that could exist in the future matters

00:48:24.260 right only current humans matter right which is weird i don't understand how like logically that works

00:48:29.000 but okay you've taken this position and you believe that the goal of life should be

00:48:34.760 to create a net positive emotional output which i think because that's what we're programmed to

00:48:40.780 believe basically as humans it's something that most people start their philosophical lives believing

00:48:45.340 in middle school and a lot of people grow out of that but a lot of people don't grow out might be

00:48:49.580 the wrong word i i think that there is reason to believe that's true but even if you believe that's

00:48:55.960 true you have to believe that humans won't advance in the future that humans won't be able to control

00:48:59.560 it's more in the i don't know and even if you're no but but i think it is logically consistent like

00:49:04.020 you say to have a moral framework that only values what's happening now like that i don't think that's

00:49:11.020 if that's what you choose that's what you choose yeah so the the core framework of antinatalism that i

00:49:18.540 just can never wrap my head around is one the empty universe thing that they think that that's

00:49:22.120 exactly equally to to a universe full of entities and and two this sort of statement that you're

00:49:28.420 forced to believe which is if action z by person y robs the agency of person x at future time t

00:49:34.880 it is morally wrong with the caveat that this is not true if action z was tied to the conception

00:49:41.840 of person x but the great thing about antinatalism is they're somewhat self-defeating they really only

00:49:47.460 exist in cultural groups that have already an incredibly low fertility rate they're generally i

00:49:52.020 think almost absent from the the cultural groups with high fertility rates right now i have never heard

00:49:56.540 of anyone from a cultural group with a high fertility rate being an antinatalist so i think it's just sort

00:50:01.080 of part of this on we world of this decaying urban monoculture well i actually so i think that that

00:50:08.960 antinatalism and in general to a great extent modernity driven demographic collapse is is more a

00:50:17.740 picture of what happens when the struggle is removed from people when when the struggle is removed

00:50:24.120 it's a lot i think harder to find a reason to live and for some people a reason to live it goes all the

00:50:31.220 way to antinatalism and deep depression for other people a reason to live is like a reason to have

00:50:35.360 kids a hope for the future excitement for the future at one point on on twitter someone was like

00:50:40.080 oh let's stop calling them developed countries let's call them developing countries always you should

00:50:45.340 never give up on okay we've made it like there's nothing else to do there's nowhere else to go

00:50:50.740 there's no threat to to overcome there's no challenge i think it really does come down to on we

00:50:57.140 and i think that's a bigger problem because you you you don't go we we've all we've both traveled

00:51:02.720 right to places where poverty is a lot higher and we both hung out with people who have come from

00:51:08.960 much more deprived backgrounds who do not have anywhere close to the privileges of your average

00:51:13.100 american and even like your your impoverished average american right antinatalism is not even

00:51:19.340 not even there just no no no but among our wealthy friends antinatalism is actually a pretty

00:51:26.180 pervasive yeah so just i'm just saying that more broadly i think this is a picture of a society

00:51:32.220 that it doesn't sound right to say this but that does not have enough hardship

00:51:37.220 and that hardship in some ways makes it more obvious to people well i think in cultures that

00:51:42.960 embrace hardship they know that suffering isn't an intrinsic negative they see how it improves them

00:51:48.260 the culture's relation to suffering i think is really tied to how much it finds the ideas of

00:51:55.360 antinatalism tantalizing suffering is the emotion that motivates you to improve yourself

00:52:01.340 um contentment that's the ultimate evil emotion that's the emotion that encourages stasis and in

00:52:07.540 our world perspective a world of personal stasis a world where you accept that the iteration of you

00:52:13.100 that exists now is is elite basically and better than any iteration of you that could exist it's a

00:52:17.680 it's like a supremacist sort of ideological perspective and it's the way we do humanity as

00:52:22.400 well like that we have kids so they can be better than us um but a final point i wanted to get to

00:52:27.880 which is like when i think about how could i become an antinatalist right like previous iteration of me

00:52:33.300 back when i did believe that emotions had value to people and i think the trick that happened to me at

00:52:39.920 that time of my life was that i expected profound things to feel profound or to feel loud at least but

00:52:50.880 there was no reason for evolution to code profound things is feeling profound you can hijack the

00:52:56.220 profundity system by like group chanting you can hijack the profundity system with hallucinogens

00:53:02.780 there's a lot of things you can do to create a false sense of profundity people expect that the

00:53:08.720 emotions we feel are going to point to some true underlying value whether that's a positive or

00:53:14.860 negative value and humans never underwent evolutionary pressure to be able to search for true meaning in the

00:53:21.620 universe so none of our emotions should align with what true meaning looks like in the universe

00:53:28.260 and so we should expect like when we're logically searching for things of value for it to not actually

00:53:35.560 feel like oh i feel this emotional when i come to the right answer but the the feeling that that pain

00:53:42.860 is bad i think that's a very easy thing you can come to when you're like well nothing really feels

00:53:48.460 meaningfully profound but pain does feel meaningfully bad therefore as somebody who has

00:53:55.400 had time to indulge in pain and has grown up in a culture that didn't give me a healthy way of

00:54:00.820 relating to emotional pain it just said emotional pain is a pure negative and very few traditional

00:54:06.140 cultures do that most traditional cultures see emotional pain maybe not the way we do maybe it's not

00:54:10.920 like something that motivates you to improve but they they definitely don't see it as like the core

00:54:15.340 negative the universe it might be the way that god tests you it might be like there's all sorts of

00:54:19.320 ways you can relate to pain you don't need to relate to pain in a purely and only negative context

00:54:24.880 and could i experience enough pain that i just wanted to die in the moment yes but that's because i'm a

00:54:31.540 disgusting meat fat involved and i'm weak and i'm wretched and i'm fallen and by that what i mean

00:54:38.400 from a atheistic perspective is humans our biology is not optimized around what we should want like

00:54:48.840 there was no reason for it to be optimized around what we should want so i am going to succumb to that

00:54:54.620 just as much as anyone else like i drink beer i know that provides me with no real long-term positive

00:54:59.880 but i do it because i am wretched and fallen and that's part of of being human is understanding

00:55:07.360 these these flaws in who we are like that we feel pain for things that are pointless

00:55:12.520 and understanding that that's just part of the human condition but that we can work through that

00:55:17.980 potentially and we can work to improve that not just for ourselves but for everyone

00:55:21.740 i don't know if you have closing thoughts

00:55:24.900 i'm glad we're alive i'm glad our kids are alive we're a problem for antinatalists dear

00:55:32.420 antinatalists i'm sorry if we missed anything leave a comment we genuinely want to understand

00:55:38.180 the argument as well as we can especially the the logically founded versions of it

00:55:42.660 or if there's an argument for it that we didn't include these are the arguments we found most

00:55:47.600 convincing yes um and again i think it's it's one of those things where i can't say they're wrong

00:55:53.220 it's just a nature of perspective in the same way that i i would not say that people who believe

00:55:57.320 that life begins at the conception or at the level of this firm are wrong i just have a different

00:56:03.420 perspective than them but i don't think their perspective is like intrinsically evil even

00:56:07.440 though it leads to evil actions from my cultural perspectives which is killing babies or from their

00:56:12.060 perspective preventing babies who otherwise would have existed had different choices been made than the

00:56:15.940 choices that their culture condones for them but i'm okay with that i'm okay with living in a

00:56:19.680 multicultural ecosystem so long as people don't mess with my culture as soon as we think that well

00:56:24.480 okay we have right to your body your culture that's where i'm like okay now those are those are fighting

00:56:29.920 words yeah absolutely well we will go celebrate our pronatalism by picking up our kids now and giving

00:56:39.380 them big hugs and hoping the best for them and i can't imagine they didn't exist i can't imagine that

00:56:45.760 would be a better world knowing them and having met them what antinatalism means is if i had adopted

00:56:52.460 that mindset when i was younger they they wouldn't have been given the choice to continue existing oh my

00:56:58.420 gosh and just imagining the way they don't they don't run they bounce you know they oh the sparkles in

00:57:05.380 their eyes yeah i i i know that they want to exist if they don't want to exist killing themselves is

00:57:12.300 always a choice our culture does not have a real negative opinion of suicide um but it is it is it

00:57:17.720 is not a choice to use the fact that you want to commit suicide to rob the agency of another potential

00:57:24.020 person who could have been born in your place who would have loved their life that's the choice you

00:57:28.820 have to make for yourself and not for other people because when you rob other people of agency that's

00:57:33.240 the truest of all evils and yeah yeah yeah i guess that kind of sums it up is is we think you have

00:57:39.380 every right to end your life per our moral framework but you should never rob that of someone else

00:57:43.920 in the end so much of what we come down to is sovereignty personal sovereignty and freedom

00:57:48.800 of choice and that is you know up to each person to decide what to do with themselves in each culture

00:57:54.280 i think it gets trickier when you're talking about kids but i think the only real safe way like

00:57:59.140 intergenerationally to assure that groups don't come to believe that other groups are like intrinsically

00:58:03.660 worse than them and that they have current launch to do whatever they want because that's what

00:58:06.320 happened with the residential school program in canada they said well these natives don't know how

00:58:09.460 to raise their kids correctly the european way the the you know the modern way so we're going to

00:58:14.420 take their kids from them and erase their culture because we're better and they genuinely believe

00:58:18.300 that they genuinely believe they were helping people and when you begin to believe that your

00:58:22.280 culture is naturally superior to other because of things they're doing to their kids or whatever

00:58:25.500 then it can lead to really really evil action really really quickly and it can feel really really

00:58:32.180 good and righteous in the moment i try to learn from history what not to do and one of the things

00:58:37.880 is passing judgment on other cultures or other groups especially when they have belief systems

00:58:41.780 that i see is logically logically consistent yeah okay heavy conversation but good come give me a hug

00:58:49.820 let's get our kids i love you malcolm

00:58:51.920 you

Based Camp - July 20, 2023

Based Camp： The Academics Who Want to Eradicate All Life from the Universe (Negative-Utilitarian Anti-Natalism)

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