Based Camp： The Cybernetic Birds and the Bees
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Summary
In this episode, Simone and I discuss the differences between monogamous and polygynous cultures, and why monogamous cultures tend to have higher rates of marriage and children. We also discuss why monogamy is more prevalent than polygynamy and why polygynism is less so.
Transcript
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If you look at the cultural groups that are strict, but are otherwise forced to engage
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the progressive monoculture, this is where you get the meme of the Catholic schoolgirl,
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And this is definitely something when I was more promiscuous, I ran into girls like this
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a lot, where the most promiscuous girls typically come from conservative religious backgrounds.
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They do not come from the backgrounds closer to you, where their parents laid out both
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Yeah, that's actually, come to think of it, yeah.
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They're like, this system used to work in the past.
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But it used to work in an environment where this urban monoculture didn't exist and wasn't
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I thought today, given that we have done some episodes that discuss things like people's
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sexuality, gender, stuff like that, that we talk about, because another big theme of ours
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is, well, what are we going to do for our culture, for our kids?
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How are we going to build something that's intergenerationally durable, and that focuses
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on these concepts specifically in relation to how we are going to conceive them as a cultural
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group, and the way we will teach our kids about them, or teach them to contextualize them
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Before we go any deeper down this particular rabbit hole, I think it's important to survey
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the landscape of how cultures relate to sexuality, and why they relate to sexuality, the way they
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So cultures can be thought of as broadly an evolving software that's sitting on top of
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evolving human hardware, which is a person's pre-coded genetic predilections.
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And then on top of that, you have this sort of software package.
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And if the package does a good job of getting people to reproduce and pass that software
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package on to the next generation, then those iterations of the packages exist in higher
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proportions than other iterations of the packages.
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And this is why most successful cultural groups throughout history have prohibitions on
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masturbation and sex outside of marriage and stuff like that.
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So first, let's talk about why would you have a prohibition on sex outside of marriage,
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Well, sex outside of marriage, and it's not that there aren't cultural groups that allow
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And by that, what I mean is they didn't conquer their neighbors.
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Often they are typically smaller cultural groups that are really pushed to the wayside by history.
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And this is because, one, monogamous cultural groups typically out-compete polygynous cultural
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Now, first, we need to make clear that almost all cultural groups are polygynous to some
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By that, what we mean is the ultra-wealthy and ultra-powerful in almost any society in
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history, yes, even the Catholic monarchies and stuff like that often had, it was expected.
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When I call a culture monogamous, all cultures are polygynous to some extent, where the elite
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And if that slider is under 1% of the population, it's expected to have multiple partners.
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If it's 5% to 10%, those are where most polygynous cultures stay.
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Very few polygynous cultures get as high as like 20% of men having more than one wife.
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So it's important to understand what we mean when we call a culture polygynous versus monogamous.
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A lot of people are like, oh, in a polygynous culture, every man has a lot of wives.
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And it's like, no, obviously that won't work because you have about an equal number of males
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and females in almost any society unless there's a lot of war.
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So the monogamous cultures typically outcompete the polygynous cultures.
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You know, we have them cited in our book on both sexuality and relationships because they're
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And you can see them side by side in some places like Africa where you can see these cultures
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And what you see is that these more monogamous cultures typically have lower rates of ape.
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And we're not going to use the full word there because we don't want to get demonetized.
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They usually have lower rates of crime, lower rates of violent crime, lower rates of unpaid
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debts, and most importantly, lower rates of terrorism.
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And this is usually directly correlatory to the number of unwed men in these societies.
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And so the groups that adopted these monogamous practices outcompeted the groups that did not.
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And then once they adopt monogamous practices, if a person is having relations outside of their
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marriage, well, they might as a single woman end up having kids outside of marriage.
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And that's typically really bad for any cultural group because those kids often end up becoming
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wards of the state in cultures that don't allow women to work as much.
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And typically when a culture encourages women to work more, their fertility rate decreases
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and nearby cultural groups end up outcompeting them, which is why it's so common in these
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So this is why historically the cultural groups that have won have, one, often been more monogamous.
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They often really discourage premarital relations and relations outside of a marriage because
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that could break up a marriage, which then causes, you know, obviously problems for a society
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where it's expected that people are going to be together forever, right?
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Because maybe they don't care for one kid and then the kid becomes like a vagrant and,
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Roaming groups of kids without parents were a major problem in these societies.
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Almost like packs of stray dogs that were intelligent and were constantly trying to screw you over.
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It's something we don't really see in the world today as much, but it was a major problem,
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And then the masturbation push, the reason why so many groups are against that is because
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And you can look at some cultural groups, I'm pretty sure some Jewish sects do this,
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where it's like you can't even have sex with somebody when the person would not get pregnant
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That's why you see this in so many cultural groups.
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Now, why I'm laying out this groundwork, right, is this is no longer theoretically the most
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successful strategy if you're trying to encourage high fertility rates in a culture,
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because the way that fertility works has dramatically changed.
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This morning I had a frozen embryo transfer, meaning that I went to our fertility clinic
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and they transferred into me using a catheter and ultrasound, an embryo that we had previously
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So this was not procreative sex for our next kid.
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In fact, none of our children have been created using procreative sex.
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And I like to think that that is the ultimate gift that we give them.
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They don't have to think that their parents having sex created them, which is a heavy burden
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Yeah, that's your, they are, they are a product of science and money.
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So, but, but yeah, it is, it's, so this is really important, you know, obviously it was
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an embryo that we selected based on its, its, its genetics, which is also a cultural practice
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So from our cultural position, sex is purely masturbatory or a way to have kids less expensively.
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Because not everyone has the luxury or the affordance to either pay for IVF or be lucky
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So eventually, I mean, I'd like our family office, which we want to run things for all
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of our kids to be able to pay for this for, for any of them that want it.
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But in the meantime, the only case where I think it would really be ethical for somebody
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within our cultural group to have kids not using IBS and collagenic risk screening, because
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those kids could end up getting, you know, cancers or have other maladies that could easily
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be screened for, right, would be if it was in some way cost prohibitive.
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And because of that, they were going to have less kids.
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But if it's not cost prohibitive for that family, then, then sex for that family is always
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You are just using another person's body to, to, to feel good in the same way you could
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But this culturally really changes how we teach our kids to relate to one sexuality, but
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Because, you know, we're entering a world where artificial wombs are coming down the pipeline.
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They will definitely be here by the time our kids are old enough to have kids themselves.
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And so is IBG, which means that they would be able to have kids with people of the same
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And this is really interesting because another thing is, if you look across the world, you
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know, whether it's China or Islam or the US or wherever, cultural groups that have been
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successful, i.e. spread a lot and survived over a long period of time, almost always have homophobic
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And typically when they begin to lose those undertones, they, that is right before a collapse
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And, and one of the questions can be like, what's going on here?
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You know, when this is clearly not in a portion of the population's best interest, and it is
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because it increases fertility rates for those cultural groups.
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And so even if you have a cultural group that becomes, historically speaking, that became
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more tolerant of LGBT individuals, if it had like a branch of it, like a split of it that
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was less tolerant of them, that split would have more kids.
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And, and so you see this just across the world in, in these longer cultural groups.
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But what you're saying is now with modern technology, it suddenly doesn't matter as much if you have,
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you know, two consenting adults, flapping their genitals against each other.
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So is gender is still important to us insofar as males and females are dimorphic, you know,
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both physically and psychologically, which may make them assortatively better at specific
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tasks or specific roles within a marriage, but not beyond that.
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Well, so let's talk then about what the, the talk is going to look like with our kids.
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And of course, who knows, you know, by the time that they reach pre-adolescence, at which
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point we're going to talk with them about this more concertedly, we'll, we'll probably have
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new information that changes what we're going to do, but what's our running plan now?
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I would say that there's two large concerns for us in regards to this.
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One is cultural groups, which are really, really sex negative, often have a higher bleed
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rates, i.e. more of their members leave the cultural group, especially when they're competing
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against this sort of progressive urban monoculture.
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In fact, I would say that sexuality is the progressive urban monoculture's biggest lure
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to get people out of these conservative traditions.
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They say, Hey, come to us and you can be sexually hedonistic.
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You can act on any desire you have, and we will praise you for it.
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You know, now what's interesting is it's becoming more and more sexually conservative in many
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And we're seeing this where it's becoming more restrictive in the way it views sexuality.
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And we can have another video on why that's the case.
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But what it means is that if you have a group like us as a cultural group, if we tell our
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kids, we do not care how you engage with your sexuality, so long as it is efficacious, that
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big pull that this urban monoculture can use to draw them out of our cultural group loses
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I think that's a really important point because what I see a lot, for example, in comments
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on our videos is, Hey, this sex negative shaming is a really key portion.
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We can't retain our culture if we do not shame what they would call sexual deviance.
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And what you're saying here is actually it's that very shaming that pushes many people away.
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So it's not a complete view to believe that this shaming and this sex negativity is going
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to help you over the long run, especially in modern society.
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Well, I do believe that kids should learn to control their sexuality and teach them to
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control that, but they should control it as a utility.
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Like I would say that this is part of how humans engage with other humans and that when you
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are acting morally by our cultural framework, you are engaging in these practices in a way
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that is efficacious and in the best interest of things that you think have long-term moral
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And so by that, what I mean is, you know, you can use sexuality to get things out of
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I think that's something that a lot of people know, and it can be very important in terms
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of shortcuts in life and other people can use it against you.
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So if you don't have full self-mastery, other people can use this against you.
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And really importantly, it's important in mate finding.
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Within most modern mate finding rituals, you know, if you are targeting really educated people
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and you are not sexually experienced, it's very rare to find ones that also aren't sexually
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You know, I think that this is more an important thing for guys was girls.
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You know, they can wait to try to find the correct partner with the understanding that
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they're going to pair bond more if they do that.
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But I would more just inform them of the trade-off here.
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So specifically with our daughter's sexual strategy, basically, rather than because I
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remember, so my mother had given me some sort of talk about like, when I was much younger,
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she was like, sex is like jewels, like you're born with, she was very, I think, uncomfortable
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You're born with a certain number of jewels and you have to be careful about who you give
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And she was, and this was someone who had grown up in a very sexually open culture and, you
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know, was involved in poly in her youth and everything.
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And so I think it was really, when I look back on it, I think it's really interesting
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what she was trying to say to me, because I think she was trying to say, you're free
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to make choices here, but there is a bit of a trade-off and a cost.
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And I think you and I just want to be a lot more explicit with that conversation that like,
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yes, sex, you can basically, as a woman, take two different sexual strategies.
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One in which like, probably you're a lot more open with sex.
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Obviously you're careful safety wise, health wise, et cetera.
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But you know, you, you, you understand that you're going for like high count and strategic
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So like maybe, you know, that would be a good strategy for our daughters who are like,
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I'm super into this, but that when it comes to securing a partner, when it comes to a life
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partner, like someone who will marry them and invest in them and have kids with them, it is
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And so their odds of maybe needing to raise children in alternative fashions, either like
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independently or in concert with other people or other siblings or something like that, like
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that is going to have to be a realistic, viable pathway.
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And also that we need, we need, I think we should warn them that what they want now may
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be very different from what they want in the future.
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Cause I do think that when you're younger, especially both as a male and a female, but especially as a
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female, like you kind of get the impression younger, Oh, well, like more sex, more exploration is a good
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But then later you're like, man, I really want kids, but you didn't want kids when you were a teen.
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So I think, you know, something to, to note is that when you met me and, and, and still other
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And I will say that that definitely increased my perception as you as a potential wife.
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You were a higher quality potential wife to me.
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And a lot of people would be like, Oh, that's terrible or whatever.
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But I think the reality is, and there's like biological reasons for this, that men are going
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And some men are going to have a strong preference for partners with a low body count.
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Well, I think there's the partner that you want to have sex with.
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And there's the partner that you want to have and raise your kids.
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So, so I, I also argued that there's a difference here.
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Like the type of person that I would want for a random sexual encounter is very different
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than the type of person I would want for a long-term relationship.
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And so even I, as someone with a, with a high body count, I appreciated that coming into the
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But I also think that us telling our kids this in the same way that your mom told you this,
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She gave you a choice between multiple strategies, but also taught you the value of self-control.
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And you decided to use those two pieces of information to choose a low partner count strategy.
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I think that the primary thing my parents gave me was complete freedom to make the choices
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myself because I found all humans, men and women, disgusting until I met you.
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I, but the point I'm making here more broadly is I actually think, so a lot of people hear
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this strategy in terms of what they, we tell our kids and they, I think, intuitively suspect
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that it will lead to our daughters sleeping with a lot more people.
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When in reality, if you look at the cultural groups that are strict, but are otherwise forced
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to restrict around these topics, but are otherwise forced to engage with, with near the progressive
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This is where you get the meme of the Catholic school girl, right?
00:17:42.800
And this is definitely something when I was more promiscuous, I ran into girls like this
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a lot where the, the most promiscuous girls typically come from conservative religious
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They do not come from the, the more, the backgrounds closer to you or their parents laid out both
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Like all the, the friends that I had who were raised by super, super socially liberal parents
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Basically until we graduated high school, none of my friends were not virgins except for one
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And then the, the, the vast majority of them all when they did become sexually active were
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like in very committed relationships, like that lasted for years, maybe terminated in
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That's, that is, I hadn't thought about that before.
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So, so it's, it's something to keep in mind that it is actually a fairly successful way
00:18:40.360
because it's something that people, when they talk about going back to the way things
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used to be there, they, they're like this system used to work in the past, but it used
00:18:49.020
to work in an environment where this urban monoculture didn't exist and wasn't constantly sniping
00:18:55.980
And so I think, yes, the system did used to work in the past, but, but when I look at
00:19:00.360
what cultural groups work today at conveying this message to their daughters, it's actually
00:19:05.940
the ones that engage with it in, in this other full information, but, but, but understand
00:19:14.260
And, and this, what were you going to say, Simone?
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Well, you're, there's another thing I really want to discuss here, which is a factor that
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wasn't really that much of a thing when you and I were teens, but it's definitely going
00:19:26.580
So I still, there's a lot of stuff that we need to get through with girls, especially,
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but also then boys, we have to do boys next, but.
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We're talking about sexting, you know, and I, and I.
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Well, you and I were having a discussion the other day where we're like, well, what, what
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happens if, you know, one of our daughters is encouraged by someone she's dating to send
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to sexually explicit photos of herself, because we had an issue with someone, a colleague
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And I'm like, oh my gosh, like there are people who I think are totally normal, who I would
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never expect to be sending explicit photos of themselves, sending explicit photos of
00:20:05.440
In the moment to them, it may feel like this can help them secure a better partner.
00:20:09.000
They may feel like, oh, this isn't actually engaging in, in, in sex with the person.
00:20:14.360
Therefore, like my rules, like when you create rigid rules.
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Instead of just giving people a reason behind those rules, they can act in ways where it's,
00:20:28.360
You know, but if you explain the reason why this is about maximizing the number of children
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you have and, and ensuring you don't have children outside of a committed relationship
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and ensuring that you are high quality perceived by potential partners, like those are what you're
00:20:44.180
And so what we came up with here, you actually, Simone came up with the idea.
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You came up with this and I think it's brilliant is so your idea was, okay, well, we should
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just tell our daughters that any of their boyfriends ever pressure them to send explicit photos
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And I think this is so brilliant on a couple levels.
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One is like, first, they can always point to this, this YouTube video and be like, Hey,
00:21:08.500
my mom and dad, like proof from an early age told me to only send deep fakes.
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Second, I think that there's a lot of vulnerability that you expose yourself to like mentally when
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you, when you send something that kind of compromising of yourself to someone else.
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When as far as you should be concerned, anything, any photo that ever just even goes onto your
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I don't care if you send it to anyone that belongs to the internet that might as well
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So even just taking exposed photos of yourself is putting yourself in a really vulnerable
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And I just feel like you'd feel, you know, even if there are fake naked photos of you
00:21:44.900
online, one, you can make them super flattering, but two, you know, that isn't you.
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And there's likely going to be technology for detecting deep fakes, which then allows you to
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do, you know, if they ever try to release it or use it to pressure you, you could just
00:22:00.060
be like, Hey, you could have created those on your own.
00:22:02.020
And I can prove that those aren't real, which allows you to engage in sort of the point of
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this, because at that point, you know, and if a partner pressures you, what you would
00:22:12.900
say back to them is you're like, okay, do you want this for your personal sexual satisfaction?
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And if it's about a power dynamic, no, I do not think this is a smart thing.
00:22:29.800
Well, I think usually it's a post-talk power dynamic, you know, like first it's for enjoyment.
00:22:33.880
Then there's a breakup or there's some other weird politicking going on, or there's some
00:22:37.080
social clout that could be gained, or you want to prove, you know, Oh, Hey, look at my
00:22:45.200
And then imagine that they didn't know, because of course we would encourage them not to tell
00:22:49.820
And then it comes out later that this person was sharing deep fakes of a girl and saying that they
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were real photos and they would look like such a fool.
00:23:06.260
So the other thing that I actually want to talk through with you, you and I haven't talked
00:23:11.380
about this yet, but I'm genuinely concerned about the, the ease with which you can make
00:23:25.080
I don't have enough data to know if this kind of compromises your, your reputation or if it,
00:23:32.400
you know, hurts your social clout or if it hurts you mentally, like it kind of gives you
00:23:37.580
just a screwed up perception of, of men, like as a girl, but I, I do.
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It dramatically lowers your value on dating markets.
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I worry about that because it's also really tempting.
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And I think we're going to have very industrious children.
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But in one of the things that we'll mention in the, in the video about my mom who died recently
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is one of the most important lessons she taught me.
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And it's one that we will definitely teach our kids is the single most important decision
00:24:03.300
The single most important accomplishment in your life is who you marry much more important
00:24:08.180
than your career, much more important than, than, you know, your academics or anything
00:24:14.140
Your marriage is the most important thing to one, your ability to succeed in the world
00:24:20.860
into your daily quality of life and, and, and three, how you exist in the future, which
00:24:27.800
You know, what would you do then if, if our daughter, one of our daughters, you are constantly
00:24:33.400
emphasizing to them, the importance of securing a high quality partner as their single most important
00:24:40.720
Anything that permanently and dramatically lowers their probability of that for some sort of short
00:24:51.200
And so what they will have to do is internally judge for themselves.
00:24:58.600
Am I willing to take a permanent hit to my desirability on the marriage market for short
00:25:04.320
term financial gain or access to some sort of financial gain system that I otherwise wouldn't
00:25:10.820
And I think for most people, if you just lay out like the reason for all of this, and I
00:25:15.760
think the really important thing with the way that my parents conveyed this to me and
00:25:19.640
the way I will convey it to our kids is why this is important.
00:25:29.120
Like you're just like, I want to make a lot of money.
00:25:31.860
If you're like, okay, I want to be successful in my career.
00:25:35.180
Easiest thing is to have somebody who has your back.
00:25:37.100
My career has been completely enabled because of you working with me, writing those books with
00:25:43.980
You want to stay sharp and not, you know, I'll tell them, look at a lot of old people
00:25:47.620
and you'll see how quickly you can begin to mentally fall apart if you don't have somebody
00:25:53.100
How easy it is to stray from your value system.
00:25:56.540
Like you matter more to me being like, I guess, intellectually engaged and sharp today than
00:26:09.280
You know, you went to Cambridge for graduate school.
00:26:12.560
Like we went to good look, but how much does that still matter in our daily lives today?
00:26:16.660
Like in terms of what I know or my knowledge of the world?
00:26:28.560
What if one of our daughters is using some kind of like anime filter?
00:26:31.500
So no one sees it's her, but she's still doing it to make money.
00:26:36.440
Well, this is the great thing about our culture, right?
00:26:40.400
Is we are telling our kids, they have to make these judgments for themselves.
00:26:45.600
They have to make the cost risk trade-off for themselves while knowing what the end cultural
00:26:53.040
So it's not a bunch of superficial cultural goals that are supposed to achieve this end
00:26:56.820
outcome of high levels of reproduction, high quality partners, high, high desirability
00:27:02.820
You know, we just tell them, those are the end goals.
00:27:05.800
Now you have to decide how you're going to achieve that.
00:27:09.300
And a lot of cultural groups, they're designed to work for both smart people and dumb people.
00:27:15.380
Like this cultural strategy would not work for a dumb, impulsive person.
00:27:20.160
But because, you know, our cultural group will engage in things like polygenic selection,
00:27:26.240
presumably we will have a lot fewer people like that within our cultural group.
00:27:32.120
So you're taking up the bumpers, but you're like, it's okay.
00:27:37.040
Well, I mean, and this also comes to how we relate to things like, you know, one of our
00:27:43.100
What I would say to them is, wow, it's going to be dramatically more costly to have kids.
00:27:49.700
But because, you know, depending on the cost of...
00:27:52.480
If they're male, if they're a lesbian, it's pretty fine.
00:28:00.460
Well, I mean, it depends on IBG technology and stuff like that and where that is and how
00:28:04.580
cheap that is because they could want the kids to be 100% biologically theirs.
00:28:10.040
But if they're doing that, you know, well, not that much more.
00:28:12.600
I mean, there's cost benefits to all of this, right?
00:28:15.540
And the goal is just maximize and it's not maximize reproduction.
00:28:19.560
And I should be clear, maximize reproduction insofar as you can set these people up for
00:28:27.920
Because if you're just spamming kids and you don't take the first 18 years of that kid's
00:28:35.180
And sell them like our cultural group is a good way to do things.
00:28:39.860
So when you have kids, they'll enjoy their lives as well.
00:28:46.860
So is this an equation that you're doing in terms of how many kids you're having versus
00:28:50.960
your means as a family and your local situation?
00:28:54.220
So now I can model what's going to happen when you walk in on one of our daughters and
00:28:58.280
she's camming for money is you're going to be like, listen, listen, I respect this.
00:29:03.580
But what I would respect even more is if you do like an Andrew Tate thing, but with AI
00:29:08.220
surrogates, you know, and just, you know, build their whole ring, you know, you can,
00:29:11.500
you need to maximize this, you know, doing this yourself, putting a, you know, filter
00:29:14.860
on, no, no, no, there's a better way to do this, but be thoughtful.
00:29:17.620
I think this is going to be a very entertaining adolescence for our, for our kids.
00:29:22.840
What are your top like warnings you're going to give to our teen boys when it comes to
00:29:28.340
Well, I think one of the most important that girls do not have as much is people will try
00:29:36.760
Way more than people thought it is, it is a much more common tactic, especially if
00:29:41.800
It was something I constantly had people trying to do with me.
00:29:44.780
I constantly had to worry about if you're a high quality male partner, people will try
00:29:49.520
And it's because it's an effective strategy and the legal system as it exists now is really
00:29:56.020
So like in the U S if even if a woman, like you are not sleeping with her, you throw away
00:30:01.220
a condom, you had slept with another girl and she uses that condom to impregnate herself.
00:30:09.240
Because the state views that as, you know, what, what is best for the child?
00:30:12.500
And if the child has additional financial support, that's not the state then.
00:30:19.100
I think as a male, another really important thing is there's going to be a lot of social
00:30:27.080
And, and this is true for girls as well by your desirability was in sexual marketplaces.
00:30:33.200
So for women, it's not like the actual number of people they sleep with.
00:30:37.180
And there were people who want to sleep with you for men.
00:30:42.160
But either way, I would really encourage them to understand that this is a tool they can
00:30:48.860
If it's a system that they can play well, but to be very, very careful about actually
00:31:03.440
Any, any of your score was in this system, just utilize it insofar as it helps you secure
00:31:10.940
But other than that, really don't define your self worth by it.
00:31:14.760
And this also comes to, you know, what I tell our kids about gender, which is really
00:31:19.580
So I would be much more concerned about one of our kids being trans than being gay.
00:31:27.960
Like, I really wouldn't care at all about them being gay.
00:31:31.340
But, but trans insofar as not just identifying, like I wouldn't care if they just identified
00:31:36.560
I mean, technically we would be considered trans because we're both pretty agender.
00:31:39.760
Like we just don't care that much about what our gender is.
00:31:42.580
But what I would be really concerned about is if they decided to undergo all the gender
00:31:48.020
affirming surgery and, and all of the social costs of this.
00:31:51.460
And I'd be like, that just seems really indulgent, both time-wise, money-wise, everything-wise
00:31:58.240
for something that I hope we have raised you to, to believe doesn't really matter that
00:32:05.880
And if you want to play different cards than you were dealt, or you want to in some way
00:32:10.800
game the system with hormones or something like that, go, go ahead with it.
00:32:15.560
But when you get to the level where this is like a major daily expense to you, when you
00:32:20.400
are making life choices that is in debt, you to a particular medical regime, that's going
00:32:26.820
to be a major part of your income for the rest of your life.
00:32:29.700
And it just, some extent is going to force you to always simp for one cultural group over
00:32:36.580
And I mean, we've seen this, like you look at what happened to somebody like Buck Angel,
00:32:40.560
you don't toe the line and you just get completely piled on by the community, even though he
00:32:46.040
was a person who moved the trans agenda forwards a lot in the early days, when I think a lot
00:32:52.040
of people thought it was about just acceptance, right?
00:32:57.740
And so that's where I would have a little bit more concern if I ever felt like they were
00:33:03.020
investing either in their gender or in their sexuality.
00:33:06.680
If they begin to act like their sexuality was a major part of their identity, I would
00:33:10.680
do that as a failure as us as parents, because I would say your sexuality and your gender
00:33:17.200
They are things that you should like consciously understand, but they can be used to manipulate
00:33:22.460
And the level of self-control you have over them, yes, exercise self-control over them
00:33:28.460
insofar as you make sure they're efficacious towards your long-term goals.
00:33:32.580
But I think the important thing here that I'm actually hearing from you is you would
00:33:36.740
have exactly the same reaction if you had a cishet boy who got super obsessed with weightlifting
00:33:43.640
and looking masculine and spending money on, you know, same with a girl, with a cishet
00:33:49.320
girl who like decided that she was going to get plastic surgery and, you know, buy all
00:33:54.200
these other medications and stuff to look super feminine.
00:33:56.600
And so it's more, your concern is more like medicalizing gender, no matter where you started
00:34:02.860
and no matter where you're going, it doesn't matter if this is switching or if this is just
00:34:07.980
You just aren't for it because this is not something that's part of our community.
00:34:11.080
Yes, medicalizing gender or overly incorporating gender into self-identity.
00:34:17.040
And I think that the bigger, the bigger concern you have is just like overinvestment in this
00:34:23.760
Well, I mean, I think your gender is serendipitous.
00:34:26.160
You know, whether you are born a man or a woman is largely within most, most, I think,
00:34:31.080
belief systems these days, something you don't have control over.
00:34:33.960
And I am always really against overinvesting in terms of an individual self-identity, something
00:34:41.720
Yeah, or trying to make something that isn't really happening happen, you know, like just
00:34:47.720
Well, so, you know, if, if you, if you feel super, you know, feminine, but you're not
00:34:53.680
like, you know, maybe just try to find a way to work with that, you know, or if something
00:34:57.060
traumatic happens in your life, like work with it, turn it into something good, you know,
00:35:00.100
but don't try to force something when that causes disproportionate expenditure and your,
00:35:05.960
your resources could be better spent elsewhere.
00:35:09.360
For me, it's, it's mostly just an expenditure thing.
00:35:11.920
And when I say expenditure, I don't just mean money.
00:35:13.820
I mean, time, focus, mental bandwidth, doors, you're closing bandwidth, mental bandwidth.
00:35:20.460
I mean, anything like this, it's eating mental bandwidth is a major problem in an individual's
00:35:26.100
Well, this is again, like I'm thinking more than trans people at this point.
00:35:29.700
I'm thinking like a lot of women who spend so much time on makeup, on all this performative
00:35:35.820
femininity, same with men who spend so much time in the gym and like doing all these things
00:35:42.100
No, to me, having a gym bug boy would be just as bad because it is something that is
00:35:49.580
Now, if they are doing it for health reasons, that's one thing, right?
00:35:53.560
You know, if they are doing it just to affirm their self-identity, no.
00:35:57.920
And as we said, you control the narratives that you are optimizing for it in a big way.
00:36:02.500
Every individual gets to choose the own, their own rules for like the game that they're playing,
00:36:10.820
And if your win conditions are self-indulgent and about satisfying a personal narrative
00:36:16.280
that wasn't created to have some sort of true impact on the world, I would be very disappointed
00:36:25.000
Well, so they were like a sports star or something.
00:36:32.000
I think if they, you know, if they're making a crap ton of money or they were, you know,
00:36:36.140
If they were a sports star to make money and then use that money to have efficacious change
00:36:40.400
in the world or to get a larger podium to speak from.
00:36:44.280
Like those two things would be things I would value, but if they were a sports star because
00:36:48.760
they saw themselves as a sports star and like being a sports star was in and of itself.
00:36:53.460
But I mean, that's, I think that's the same with anything you, you really don't objective
00:36:56.760
functions that are, they're optimized around fulfilling an identity.
00:37:03.080
But I'm actually, I'm really glad that we recorded this conversation because I imagined
00:37:08.700
that like when our daughters start dating, you're going to have, I'm really keen to see
00:37:12.740
if this actually happens, if this is the thing, but you could have that weird dad response where,
00:37:17.740
you know, you're like, sit every like boy down and you're like, I'm going to kill you
00:37:24.440
No, what I'd probably do is I'd ask my daughters, what role do they need me as a dad to play
00:37:30.220
to increase the one safety of the dating experience and two quality of partners are getting.
00:37:36.860
And I suspect that different roles might be necessary with different guys, depending
00:37:40.820
on the, uh, so they'll be like, dad play bad cop.
00:37:51.300
And I think another thing that we could do, that's going to be very different than sort
00:37:54.820
of the, the urban monoculture is I would encourage my kids to start looking for spouses
00:38:02.040
The way that I divide dating, as I say, high school is a hundred percent for fun, fun and
00:38:09.940
This is where you get good at engaging with, you know, whatever gender you're attracted
00:38:13.720
And the reason I say that is, this is true, especially if you're going to public school.
00:38:16.500
Now, if you're high schooling online, as our kids were, this is less important.
00:38:20.180
The reason why, if you're going to like public or private schools, this is really important
00:38:23.040
is the people you are surrounded with were largely chosen by serendipity.
00:38:27.140
And it is very unlikely that one of these, you know, a couple hundred randomly selected
00:38:31.440
people is going to be an optimal marriage partner for you.
00:38:34.240
Whereas I think they're probably going to be like housed in people that you meet.
00:38:39.760
And so first you're going to need to, you're not going to meet 10,000 people.
00:38:42.500
What you're going to do is you're going to pre-filter the people you meet by certain metrics
00:38:47.320
And as I tried to everyone in the San Francisco area that met certain pre-screened requirements.
00:38:52.180
And I felt like I got to that point where I had met every woman in the entire area during
00:38:55.260
that period of time, who was single around my age and met the requirements I was looking
00:39:00.220
Maybe not every single one, but I'd say at least 60 to 70%.
00:39:03.960
So, so that's really a big difference is, is we'd say, okay, yes, high school is, is
00:39:09.480
for practice, but immediately after high school, you need to be looking for a spouse.
00:39:14.060
If, if you want to realistically find one in time, college is not for fun.
00:39:21.820
And if you get to the end of college and you haven't found a spouse, you need to be like
00:39:26.380
freaking out as I was, as Miles would, I mean, my brother found his spouse on his first day
00:39:31.980
And, and by the time I graduated college, I was like, okay, I've got graduate school,
00:39:36.140
If I fail at graduate school, my odds of finding a partner.
00:39:38.440
Cause as I've always said, you know, there's a large pool of pre-vetted candidates there.
00:39:44.780
To keep in mind the metagame being played by the women that they are dating.
00:39:52.780
So we'd previously talked about women have a hot, crazy graph, but men have a hot, evil
00:40:00.060
If you've got a man who's got a super high partner count, like above a certain partner
00:40:03.100
count, the odds that you hurt people are much higher.
00:40:05.120
So I would just want our sons to be aware of the trade-offs that are happening on the
00:40:11.560
other end with women that they're dating and to be aware of the role that they're playing
00:40:18.420
And I think one thing that you did really well when you were dating other people really
00:40:23.460
actively and looking for a wife, but also just dating to explore and sort of like, you
00:40:26.940
know, build an experience or have fun or whatever it was.
00:40:29.540
Because your goal was always to, to leave someone better off than they were when you
00:40:35.880
started with them, to introduce them to new like boyfriends, to, you know, find out what
00:40:40.300
they want and try to, you know, help them get closer to that.
00:40:43.060
Whether that was like exploring their sexuality or finding a better partner or moving their
00:40:49.940
And, and I, I really think that, you know, we should have the general, you know, campsite
00:40:53.420
rule, leave it better, better than it was when you came, you know?
00:40:58.380
And that was always my breakup strategy back when I was dating was if I wanted to break
00:41:01.840
up with someone, I would find them another partner.
00:41:03.440
I'd say, I remember with one girl, I was like, okay, like we're breaking up out of everyone,
00:41:08.100
you know, today, who would you most want to date?
00:41:11.000
And it turned out it was one of her professors.
00:41:18.840
Um, uh, that she was, it was the professor that all the girls wanted.
00:41:21.620
So I was, I was really proud that I got that set up because I was like, okay, this is,
00:41:27.280
But I think that through that, and this is something that is hugely underestimated in
00:41:33.140
Many of my really high quality partners that I got when I were dating were references from
00:41:40.560
You know, when you treat women well, and it's also true when you treat men well, when it
00:41:46.140
is clear that things don't work out, you know, so long as your goals were always up front
00:41:49.680
for the beginning, I'm looking for a spouse, their network, and they're having dated you and
00:41:55.260
saying, this is a good person, trust me, you know, et cetera, to, to, to someone who they
00:41:59.500
know can be really, really high quality and securing a partner and very, very valuable
00:42:05.220
at securing access to people who don't date on open markets.
00:42:09.460
And that's something that I think a lot of people miss, you know, if you're out there
00:42:13.620
getting the type of person who dates like strangers, you're much more likely to run
00:42:17.920
into like himbos and thoughts and stuff like that.
00:42:20.280
Cause these are the people that are out there having sex with lots of people, but there's
00:42:23.580
certain types of people who essentially don't date anyone who's not a pre-qualified lead.
00:42:29.460
And I'd say that this is where the majority of the really high quality partners are.
00:42:34.440
And this is why you can find them best through certain types of networking and achieving success
00:42:41.120
That is often the thing that reflects best in, in, in the dating scene, not improving your
00:42:48.200
And that's always something we should remember to tell our kids is improving how hot you are.
00:42:53.480
And you should always be a baseline level of hot.
00:42:55.680
I don't say, you know, you should ever let yourself go or anything like that.
00:42:58.320
I would view that as a sign of, well, for me dating, that would be just like an immediate
00:43:06.140
Like they can't live the lifestyle that I want to live.
00:43:08.480
Or you view attractiveness as a, just a sign of conscientiousness.
00:43:14.840
But outside of that, when you go above a certain level of attractiveness to attract partners,
00:43:19.540
you know, you are disproportionately getting the partners that are choosing you because
00:43:26.960
They want you for your attractiveness as opposed to partners who are choosing you because of
00:43:33.020
your intellectualism or choosing you because they admire your morality or choosing you because
00:43:40.500
they like where you're going in life and they want to go on that path as well.
00:43:45.040
And that leads to very different types of partners and relationship dynamics, which is something I
00:43:50.700
really want to hammer home for our kids because both men and women in the early days, they can begin to
00:43:57.540
optimize their dating around what ends in sex with the people they want to have sex with instead of,
00:44:03.900
and a lot of guys, I love it in the manager, they recognize that women screw up when they do this,
00:44:09.560
that women will do this and they'll think, oh, that's the quality partner I could get in the
00:44:13.980
And it ends up in terms of like long-term partners and it ends up screwing up what they're optimizing
00:44:21.600
The types of women that those strategies are successful with are often not the types of women
00:44:26.000
who you would want to marry for, I mean, obvious reasons, right?
00:44:29.860
Because they are dating you because you are attractive, right?
00:44:32.100
So that's not, women who you want to marry don't go around dating guys because they're attractive.
00:44:36.380
They go around dating guys because they make good long-term partners.
00:44:45.860
I'm looking forward to having the talk with our kids because I want to see what weird curveballs
00:44:51.360
Well, and who knows what gender and sexuality look like in the future?
00:44:58.420
If I try to explain, I think to a lot of young people today, what trans or gay meant in my
00:45:06.920
generation, they'd be like, but that's trans, that's like trans medicalist.
00:45:13.420
Like the trans medicalist, those were like the only, that was like the only game in town
00:45:20.100
When I was younger, you were born trans, right?
00:45:23.820
You were either born in the wrong body or you weren't born in the wrong body.
00:45:31.360
And now that would be considered trans medicalist because that would be saying, oh, well, you
00:45:41.020
And I think that this also helps for me really highlight how one, how fluid these concepts are
00:45:48.040
was in a society, but also how much the way that like in, in, in the Vogue today, the
00:45:54.760
way that these concepts are contextualized is not the truth.
00:45:59.820
And by that, what I mean is it's not like the moral nexus is the only way to view these
00:46:04.200
It's just how the dominant cultural group happens to view them today.
00:46:11.360
And something that may be seen as moral today will be seen as immoral in the future.
00:46:16.120
And therefore I encourage my kids to just not play that game and not overly invest in
00:46:21.780
that game because the chits that they spend may end up blowing up in their face in the
00:46:27.400
You know, today, what we call terse at one point were mainstream feminist ideology, like
00:46:40.300
Just decide for yourself what you want with knowledge of human biology, as realistic as you
00:46:45.780
can understand and knowledge of your end goal, which is to maximize your number of offspring
00:46:49.340
who stay within your culture and are happy they exist.