Based Camp： Transmaxxing, Gender Constructs, and BAP.
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Summary
In this episode, Simone and Malcolm discuss the trans max movement and how it relates to the Femboy movement. They discuss the ideology behind the movement, the history of Femboy culture, and the impact of the movement on society.
Transcript
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Hello, this is Malcolm and Simone, and we are excited to be here with you today. What's the
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topic today? Gender euphoria. Well, the trans maxing movement. Yes. So yeah, I mean, that's
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what trans maxing, Malcolm, is all about. It's about gender euphoria, not gender dysphoria. It's
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about transition for gain rather than transition because something is not right. Well, let's talk
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about the trans max movement in sort of the larger social context here, right? So broadly speaking,
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it is a movement of young men, predominantly, who believe that society will treat them better and
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they will have better odds in society if they become young women. They are not transitioning
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because of gender dysphoria. They are not transitioning because they don't feel like
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young men. They are transitioning purely because they think they've been dealt a raw card by being
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born male. And they think that they will have an easier time in life if they do become a female.
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And I mean, this is a movement that I have tremendous sympathy for because I can understand
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if you buy into all of this gender war stuff, especially what the men's rights movement and
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the red pill movement and the MGTOW movement, all of butcher movements, I have sympathies to
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many of their complaints. But if you buy into the extreme iteration of their arguments and these
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movements have been around, you know, about 10 years now in terms of like really being dominant in
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online culture. And so you're a man and you grow up being constantly told how hard it is to be a man
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and how society doesn't care about you. And then that is to some extent validated by your personal
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experiences and what you see in the world. Well, this scene can seem like a really appealing option.
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Yeah. And at a societal level, it's also really interesting. So we talk about in our book on how
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sort of cultures evolve to deal with different things. Typically, when you have a culture with
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a high level of polyamory, well, not really polyamory, sorry, polygyny, you don't really see
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polyamory in diverse cultures. Polygyny. Many women to one man, when you see that in a culture of
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persistence through generations, one of the things that you will also see tied to these cultures is
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higher rates of terrorism, dishonesty, and often a murder. If you contrast them with
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monogamous cultures that are in their neighbors, and this is directly correlated with a number
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of unconnected men in these societies, unpartnered men in these societies. And this makes sense from
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a biological perspective. I mean, their biology is like, basically, you have to do anything you can
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to find a partner. And there are, we go over into their books, there are exceptions to this,
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and they're narrow and whatever. But one way that some cultures have sort of evolved to deal with
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this is when a guy happens to be born gay is they will force them to transition. And you see this in
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some conservative Islamic cultures. And it's a way of artificially increasing the number of women in a
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society. I mean, you're both eliminating a guy who likely was unsatisfied and not going to find a
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partner and not going to be accepted by that society. And you are creating a new woman who can
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satisfy one of these other low status men in the society who may have turned to terrorism or some
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other socially caustic act. And so we predicted, before the trans-vaxxing movement had started,
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that we were going to begin to see pressure on low status men to transition merely because they were
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low status men. And the first place you really saw this take off was this sort of cult. You can
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google like the, I don't think it was called trans-vaxxing at the time, but the gender reassignment
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cult that started on 4chan. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They go around and they try to
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pressure young men into transitioning to build sort of harems of men, well, of now women. I mean,
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I don't know if they count as trans in the traditional context. Was it called the Femboy movement?
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Was that it? It was Femboys. Femboys. Well, yeah. So they wanted them to maintain this. And this is
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an interesting thing about the trans-vaxxing movement. They don't push transitioning in a
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traditional context. So they don't push a genital reassignment. For example, they push a hormone
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therapy and they push top surgery. But for bottom surgery, they're like, well, you can be somebody's
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fetish. So, you know, and I love a lot of communities. They're like, don't humanize me.
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This community is like, ah, an area I can gain in the marketplace.
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This dynamic is actually really underrated because honestly, there are so many people who have very high
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standards who could get someone technically out of their league just because they happen to feature
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a fetish of that person. And so many of these people are like, oh, no, I would never, never date
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him because, you know, he's into, you know, my, I don't know, gnarled feet. I have no idea. My over
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large boobs, who knows what it is. Right. But no, like that's the whole point. And it's so one of the
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reasons why I love the trans-vaxxing community is for that is like, there's so much pragmatism.
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There's so much like it's, but it's not just pragmatism. It's like enthusiastic
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leveraging of market asymmetries in a way that I just find to be wonderful. It's, it's a joyful
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Well, and for some of them accepting their lot in life as it is, um, I mean, it is true that if you,
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you know, uh, uh, for, for some men, because of the way that they're born, you know, if you're born
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uniquely unattractive and, uh, not very smart. Hey, or just uniquely feminine. Um, and that's,
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that's another argument that's made in this community is, um, in, for example, just broader,
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like M to F trans subreddits, for example, there's some gatekeeping going on where they're like, oh,
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trans maxers aren't real trans people. You know, transitioning is actually really difficult.
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This is actually something that, you know, you feel it's because you feel bad. Um, and there's,
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there, there've been some posts where people have been like, well, actually no transitioning doesn't
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have to be difficult. You know, maybe you just inject estrogen once a week and it, it, you know,
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things actually working out really well. Like there's a lot of people who are making arguments
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who are, who actually like, no, really like, I just make a lot more sense as a woman. Um, and I,
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I feel like honestly, like along both genders, um, like based on what, however you're born and what,
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what you've been assigned at birth, like that in some cases you just work out better slightly
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on the other side. And this is something that shows up right with gender and sexuality and
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gender in general, and the way that we manifest it's, it's all averages, you know, that these are
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average collections of traits where men tend to trend in certain clusters and women tend to trend in
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different clusters. And sometimes all your clusters are a little bit closer to the other end.
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Um, because you're a little bit of an outlier for whatever sex you've been assigned at birth.
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So it's not even, it's not even that, which is interesting.
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Well, so I also think another thing here is we are moving towards a society where people are okay
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with experimenting with new social models of gender. Um, and gender means different things.
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And this I think is really fascinating. So, um, what, one of the, the, the, you know,
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I would say if I had a complaint with the larger trans movements, they're like, this is what gender
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means sometimes some poor people in the movement. And, and this is like the only thing gender can
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mean. Um, and it's super sacred to a person's identity and it's really, really important to
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a person's identity. And that is not true of all cultures. Not all cultures relate to gender that
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way. This is just the way that the modern dominant progressive culture within our society relates to
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it. And I think the way that transvaxxers are not trans to a large extent is they are relating
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to gender in almost a post trans world way. They are like gender is not important to who I am. It is
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something I have control over and I can choose and I am taking ownership of my gender to give myself
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an easier lifestyle. And that's just fascinating. And it, and it, and it runs really contrary to the
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predominant society's view of gender. And I want to, I mean, for me, I wouldn't say I
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necessarily agree with either of these views of gender. Uh, obviously we have a very unique way
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that we engage with gender. Like we see it as being something that's a temporary thing while you're
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young and not really relevant when you're married. Um, and, and, and something that you use to sort of
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help sort partners, but this is just the way our family uses it. Right. Um, and I think that it's cool
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that we live in this society where there's all of the different cultural ways of relating to gender.
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And I wouldn't look down on any cultural system of relating to gender until we had data on how it
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was affecting people who grew up in it. Um, and, and we can argue whether or not we're getting that data
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now. Uh, but I think, you know, the predominant society right now isn't working and it's not,
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I mean, the suicide rates across our predominant society right now are crazy high for, for use compared
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to, you know, what they have been in the past, the level of despondency, the level of nihilism.
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Um, so I, I don't think it's working. So, you know, because the predominant social cultural group
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isn't working, I'm always going to support anyone who's trying something weird and different.
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Yeah. Well, part of me also wonders if right now we're making a much bigger deal of gender
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than we have historically. I think you're right. We are. And I think that in the past, um, if a guy
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just wanted to manifest more as a woman and a woman just wanted to manifest more as a man that like,
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for the most part, people didn't really stop them. Um, even if you were poor. Um, so like,
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I mean, we have, um, uh, I, I mean, I wish I could find this. I was, I was watching, uh,
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historians discuss this on YouTube and it was in the context of, um, sex workers in the middle ages,
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I think. And they pointed out how, um, one clearly male to female trans sex worker got in trouble for
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something, but it had nothing to do with being trans. It had something to do with like paying
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taxes or something like, so it just like, it was, you know, it was very clear that it was fine for
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them to court culture. So talk a bit about where you saw this in court culture.
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Yeah. So the, the brother of Louis the 14th famously, I mean, he was a military hero in many
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ways. He was extremely masculine. Um, but he also would, he had, uh, he had a famous boyfriend.
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He would dress in elaborate women's clothing. Um, and that was just like, that's what he did.
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That's an interesting thing that you bring up here. So in today's society, we would draw really
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thick, thick boundaries between being gay, being trans and being a cross dresser.
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Uh, but also like being a super masculine warrior. It's like, if you combine
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No, no, no. But the point I'm making, I'm talking about a fence today. If you were like,
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if you use somebody having a boyfriend as a sign that they were trans, that would be a very offensive
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thing to say because being gay has nothing to do with being trans, which has nothing to do with
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being a cross dresser. So dressing in women's clothes is not seen as part of being trans.
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You can have actually the vast majority of people by today's statistics that, that do men
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who dress in women's clothes are straight men. Uh, uh, uh, yeah, they're just straight men,
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The point I'm making is that historically that these are modern constructs to an extent,
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cross-dressing, trans, gay. They are important modern constructs for community
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and self-identification in our society. And they do describe clusters of behavior patterns,
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like, uh, uh, people who are born or feel who are male, who are attracted to
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male genitals or people who are, uh, you know, who prefer to have dysphoria or don't have dysphoria,
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but want to, uh, present as actually another gender instead of just like another gender for
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the purposes of art, uh, which is really what cross-dressing is often seen as, but it also
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can be, um, sort of a, we go into much more detail in this in the practice of anti-sexuality,
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but, um, that these distinctions didn't exist in other cultures and they didn't necessarily exist
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in history. So when you would have people who related to gender or sexuality in unusual ways,
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like this historical figure that you're talking about, um, there wasn't this concern is,
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is this person gay? Are they trans? Are they a cross-dresser? It's just, they were just doing
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whatever they wanted to because there wasn't, at least within their class status and their
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privileges in society, there wasn't any cost to doing whatever they wanted to. So they weren't
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really concerned about, I mean, I think there was a cost and there's a cost to being different,
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different, but they were just always the cost of being different. And I, and that was, that was,
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I think that's the thing is it was just his thing. It wasn't, oh my gosh, he's doing this thing with
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gender slash sex, whatever it is that they wanted, you know, but it was more just like,
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oh, he's that he's doing his thing. You know, it would, it would be just as weird if someone like,
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I don't know, dressing as a child, actually that would probably be seen as even weirder,
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um, come to think of it. Um, I'm, I'm really interested in where things go next. You know,
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I think the reason why the trans and max movement interests me so much is it's a sign that a portion
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of our society is moving past, uh, strict gender constructs and sees gender as a tool. Like they do
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recognize there are differences between men and women. There are differences between social roles
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for men and women, but gender is something under my control in a world where it's easy to access
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hormone therapy and stuff like that. And how, how do I now relate to this change and what gender
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means? Um, and I think that one of the things we talk about in our book is that, uh, you know,
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to actually identify as trans in our society is enormously costly. Um, uh, in terms of, well,
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it can be, it depends on your social circle and stuff like that, but broadly it's pretty costly in,
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in most of the world's cultures today. Well, I think it's made more costs. Honestly,
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I think it's made more costly by all the cultural baggage around it because now people feel like
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choked up, like, Oh my, I don't know what to say. I, I, I don't know how to just be like,
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Oh yeah, this is your name now. Like, okay. And now, yeah. Like people just kind of pick up on it,
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you know? But what's really interesting is we argue that the level of pro dromal transness are
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sort of like below, like these are people who'd probably prefer to identify as the other gender,
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but just don't is actually probably pretty high in society. Um, and what we use for that is if you
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look at people when they get a choice of gender presentation. So by that, what I mean is in video
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games, in, uh, uh, furries, when they choose, uh, what they wear about 20% of people, uh, men or women
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in video games prefer to play as the opposite gender. And there are many reasons this could be,
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but I suspect one of it is that there's a vault tied to what gender do I want to identify as impulse.
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Um, and that people who have a low iteration of this volume meter, but it's on the opposite side of
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the gender they were born. Uh, they find release in recreational environments. Um, which would
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indicate that the level of quote unquote, this type of trans is actually really common. Um, and it's
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hidden by the fact that we have in our society confused what is, um, a, a, a cluster of, um, impulses,
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uh, and identity, uh, well, the cluster of impulses with a, uh, political and cultural community that
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has a lot of other, uh, baggage to it. Like you were saying. Well, what I'd really love, uh, to dig
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deeper into is other new ways of engaging and identifying with gender. Um, I think in online spaces,
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we'll see some interesting stuff, but also new cultures that arise. So, you know, with the rise
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of artificial wombs and IBG and what IBG will allow is, you know, gay couples, for example,
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have kids that are a hundred percent biologically theirs. You know, if you're forming new family
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structures, do you build a new types of genders for roles in this that are recurring across family
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structures in these communities? Like, are there, and maybe you have like three people in a family,
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right? Like three parents or something like that. Do they end up sorting into the same types of roles
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within the family unit? One of the things that Simone and I have always been really surprised
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about is how much we sort inter-digital, um, masculine and feminine roles within the family.
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Like Simone, your domain is the house. Your domain is infants. My domain is older kids. And my domain is,
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uh, you know, uh, yard work, any sort of manual labor, any sort of fixing, anything that goes broken in
00:18:02.020
the house. Um, and yet, uh, you know, we didn't sort into these out of any desire to fulfill sort
00:18:08.820
of a masculine or feminine role. It was just, I don't know, maybe the, the sets of skills we came
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into things with, or like, why do you think things sorted out that way?
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I think that that has to do with average tendencies and preferences that like male and female brains tend to
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have. And I think that a lot of that has to do with our hormonal makeup. Um, but maybe also just some
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structural things. Um, I, I mean, look at, look at also just the, the difference between someone who
00:18:39.540
went through male puberty versus female puberty. It would be kind of weird if people who went through
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female puberty were on average, more likely to be inclined to do like big, heavy lifting outside,
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like the kind that you do when that's like literally so much harder for me. Um, so I,
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I think that has more to do with it. What do you think? Well, actually, so this is an interesting
00:19:01.220
point we make in the book. And I think that this ties to a point I was making earlier where I say
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a lot of this stuff is cultural and we pretend that it's not cultural, like it's a truism, but,
00:19:10.020
but it is cultural to an extent. And I think a good example of that is both you and I,
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neither of us really identify strongly with our gender. Like we just don't care. Like it's,
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I, I feel no impulse to really strongly be a guy. And within the, um, the, the LGBT community,
00:19:27.300
this would be called, uh, being agender, which is a type of genderqueer, uh, which is a type of
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trans. Um, and, uh, people, you can look this up. I actually had people disagree with me on this,
00:19:39.700
who were like progressives and thought they were up to date with progressive culture. They're like,
00:19:43.860
no, that's not considered genderqueer. Just if you're agender. And I was like, no, like,
00:19:47.700
look it up. All of the major LGBT organizations right now would consider that the definition of
00:19:53.300
genderqueer, any sort of non-normal gender, uh, impulse. But what's interesting is despite this,
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I still identify as a man. I have no interest in identifying as anything else. And anyone
00:20:02.180
of my cultural background would just because that's the way that I and my culture relates to gender.
00:20:10.020
Um, and you still identify as a woman, um, even though you don't like have this impulse
00:20:15.540
towards identifying as a woman. Um, and I actually suspect that this might be where a portion of the
00:20:21.780
anti-trans, uh, sentiment comes from in our society. Because if you look at, uh, homophobic tendencies
00:20:29.940
in the population, they are actually the highest among people with very low sex drives. There was
00:20:35.620
a study done on this and I found it really interesting. And it's likely because these people
00:20:40.420
can't model what it would feel like to be like, you're really attracted to women and somebody
00:20:46.740
comes to you and they're like, I'm really only attracted to men. You're like, oh, I get it.
00:20:49.940
Like, I can understand why you're making such a fuss about this. If you have a very low sex drive,
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you'd be like, why, why are you campaigning for special rights? Like, why is this a thing for you?
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So if that's also true for people who have very low gender identities, and it turns out a big
00:21:06.180
portion of the population, much bigger than has low sex drives, which the data seems to indicate
00:21:09.940
with something like 35 to 40% of the population is like us, like just does not really care that much
00:21:15.780
about how they're gender identified in public or whatever. Um, that, uh, you would have this higher
00:21:22.260
rate of why do people care so much about this? Why are they asking for, you know, why are they
00:21:27.780
disrupting like my day and my politics to bring this up as an issue? And it would lead to that,
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uh, negative stigma where it may not otherwise exist. I don't know.
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And I think that's, that's maybe just the future is people are not going to care that much. It's
00:21:46.340
just not going to matter. There are going to be so many different ways of approaching this.
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A lot of people just won't care. A lot of people will pick and choose elements of what they manifest.
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And that's like, honestly, I'm super, I'm super ready for that. I mean, like,
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especially with online avatars, you know, entering that world. Um,
00:22:06.500
Well, the hypothesis was conservative culture that it would have against this position is you
00:22:12.020
could not have healthy families, healthy marriages and raise kids who want to continue that culture
00:22:17.460
if you don't buy into traditional gender roles. And, um, I mean, unfortunately we're not a
00:22:21.700
counter example to that because we live pretty traditional gender roles. Um,
00:22:25.380
so, uh, but I, I, I, and I don't know, I genuinely don't know. We may find that there is some model
00:22:32.340
of non-traditional gender roles that can create a replicable and growing and, and, and healthy.
00:22:36.980
When I say healthy, I mean a family that in a culture that's breeding above replacement rate
00:22:40.980
and the kids want to stay in that culture. We may see that emerge and we may not see that emerge.
00:22:46.020
I mean, we're either in the greatest collapse of cultures in human history is about to happen.
00:22:51.380
And this huge erasure of cultural diversity across our society or a sort of a new Cambrian
00:22:56.900
explosion of cultures where we're getting a chance to try so many different cultures
00:23:01.220
because now the way you can culturally win is, is not by fighting other groups. I mean,
00:23:06.740
in a world where almost everyone is, is declining in fertility rates, other than people living in
00:23:10.660
like desperately poor countries, uh, you win was in developed countries just by having more kids
00:23:15.940
in other cultural groups and having those kids want to stay in that cultural group.
00:23:19.620
Well, I would actually just, here's what I would say though, to the conservative point is that many
00:23:23.380
conservatives, when they picture, you know, the, the balance of masculinity and femininity and having
00:23:29.140
those strong examples for children who are raised in a family, I think that they're using
00:23:36.500
jokingly hilarious caricatures of what gender is. And when you actually look at different cultures
00:23:44.660
throughout history and what femininity, femininity and masculinity looked like in those cultures,
00:23:50.900
many of them, like men exhibited, what would be seen as much more female characteristics in some
00:23:56.260
way and vice versa. Um, like, uh, Scots Irish back country people during the colonial era, like,
00:24:01.860
you know, visitors from other cultures would just be horrified to see like a woman go out back
00:24:06.420
and slaughter a cow and then come in, take the bloody apron off and like serve tea.
00:24:12.980
That's very you though. That's our cultural background.
00:24:16.180
This is our people. Um, but you know, I think that that's, that's the thing is that's not like
00:24:21.940
you're growing up in a family without gender dimorphism. You know, I think that the key is for
00:24:27.060
kids to grow up with, with, with parents who have different roles that they may or may not fill
00:24:35.300
to see that they, there are different, you know, characters that they can aspire to in the future.
00:24:40.980
Um, but that there's a lot more flexibility when it comes to these gender norms than you would think,
00:24:46.260
even when you go back to much more traditional. Yeah. No, it's a misnomer that society used to have
00:24:51.940
these, you know, the, the, the way that people think there was some cultures in the fifties that
00:24:57.860
were elevated by sitcoms that presented as we argue that the nuclear family was not a historic
00:25:04.580
way of structuring the family. It used to be the corporate family was a historic way of structuring
00:25:07.620
where everyone worked together, but also these strong gender differences. Um, and I, I love this,
00:25:13.700
this joke that we have is that we have a generation of young men today who grew up being catfished by,
00:25:19.860
uh, women pretending to be super hot or, or, or grew up catfish by men pretending to be super hot,
00:25:29.620
attractive women in online forums. And now they're being catfished by, uh, again, scrawny men,
00:25:37.220
but, but this time pretending to be super hot, super attractive male philosophers in online forums.
00:25:43.620
Because if you look at the, uh, thumbnails that are used within these communities,
00:25:47.860
they're often, you know, of these ultra, uh, ripped guys, uh, was, was, you know, the, the, the very
00:25:55.940
chattish aesthetic. But, uh, if you actually, you know, whatever, one of these peoples gets
00:26:00.900
revealed to the public, you find out that they, um, they, they, they do not look that masculine.
00:26:07.620
Um, and it's because of this, which is also really interesting.
00:26:11.620
We talk about different relation to gayness, for example, the homoeroticism of the far right
00:26:19.700
in the way that they relate to the masculine identity is really fascinating, uh, which you see
00:26:24.980
throughout. And, and the far right is really beginning to embrace this, like with, with
00:26:29.060
bronze age pervert really embraces this homoerotic aesthetic, uh, in a way that I find to be really
00:26:34.900
fascinating. I, I, I, I really like him as a philosopher and as an artist in the way he produces his
00:26:41.140
philosophy. But I think I get it though. I think I get it. And I think it, I actually think it's
00:26:45.220
distinctly not sexual. Um, even though, and, and I think again, it's, it's the way that we.
00:26:50.260
I don't think it's sexual, but it is homoerotic in aesthetic.
00:26:52.980
In aesthetic. Yeah. But a lot of that's because of the way that we have charged a lot of these
00:26:57.620
things and started to conflate a lot of these things. Yeah. And I think in the end, the funny
00:27:01.380
thing is it's like a uniquely non-sexual kind of, it is, it is romantic in the sense of like idealized,
00:27:09.140
pedestalized. Um, but it is not sexual and it's, it's actively unsexual in the fact that what you're
00:27:14.820
talking about is men appreciating masculinity totally in the absence of the female gaze in
00:27:22.020
the absence of female onlookers, competitors, um, females to be won over these aren't men positioning
00:27:29.300
and peacocking and fighting with each other over women. These are men being men. And I think that
00:27:34.980
that's so interesting. Cause like, of course, like my first impression when I, when I see stuff like
00:27:39.220
that, as I'm like, that looks. Yeah. Like I'm assuming this is gay content, but it's not. And
00:27:46.100
that's again, like, I'm so looking forward to it. What do I like it? You like bronze age pervert.
00:27:52.500
You're, you're a big fan. I'm really, no, I'm really not into the look. Um, you are, you are,
00:27:56.980
you are my type. Um, I, I do not, I do not do muscular ripped. I, I want pale and thin and, um,
00:28:06.820
smart and I'm sorry. I sorry, not sorry. I can't, but yeah, I, it's really, it's really not my type.
00:28:14.340
And I think it's hard for many guys who aspire to this, like ripped ideal to understand that a huge
00:28:22.100
swath of women are not at all into this. Although it's weird considering how popular,
00:28:27.940
like a lot of non-ripped aesthetics are. Um, but anyway, I think it's hard for many men to realize.
00:28:34.260
I think actually, um, in the same way that not all men are into like the bimbo Barbie girl.
00:28:41.220
In fact, I, in many ways, I feel like more women do the bimbo Barbie girl look for other women.
00:28:46.340
I think that many men do the, the bronze age pervert, like ripped man.
00:28:52.260
Oh yeah. For other men. It's for other men. And I'm like, that is so gross looking. Like I,
00:28:58.740
I would not. Yeah. But again, and it's, I think it's the same with women and makeup. Women wear
00:29:03.220
makeup for other women. Men get swole for other men. That's a great way to put it. It is male makeup.
00:29:11.380
It's something that matters to other men, but not really to women that much.
00:29:15.300
Yes. And with that, I need to go do a gender and amorphic thing. Um, that, that is to say,
00:29:20.180
make dinner taco night, taco night. Thank you for making wonderful dinner for the family.
00:29:25.620
Thank you for picking up the boys. I love you, Malcolm. I love you too, Simone.