Based Camp： Why Life Extension is Evil
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Summary
In this episode, Simone and Malcolm discuss immortality, life extension, mortality, and technology, and why they don't want to live forever. They discuss the pros and cons of both of these ideas, and how they differ from the typical intuition about mortality.
Transcript
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would you like to know more hello malcolm hello simone it is wonderful to be here with you today
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what are we talking about on a scale of one to ten how excited are you to die
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today we will talk about life extension mortality and immortality and i think it's a uniquely fun
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conversation for both of us because we have a view that deviates from the typical intuition that
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people have about mortality because we are genuinely not in favor of life extension we're in
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favor of health span expansion so we like the idea of having longer productive years longer years when
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our bodies are fully functioning both from a reproductive but also mental standpoint we believe
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in longer periods when people are able to work and contribute to society 100 what we aren't in
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favor of is indefinite life and there are some very concrete reasons why we hold that near indefinance
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let's say 500 years yeah like we're okay we're okay with some life extension but living forever
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causes some serious problems and i think people don't realize that and i would also point out that
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we aren't against this at a government level like i would not promote anyone limiting access to this
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technology we are against it at a family and cultural level and i think we think that our family will
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always be better off if we focus on intergenerational improvement instead of intra-generational improvement
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yeah well i think you make a really important point here though is that with this and pretty much every
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other stance on what people do with their bodies and a whole lot more for that matter we may have our
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own stances on what we think is best for us but we think that any stance that is coercive or that would
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impose rules or restrictions on other people especially against their will that is the height of evil
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absolutely the height of evil one of the reasons actually why we don't like life extension
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philosophically speaking is that we actually think that it puts more people in positions where they will
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want to impose their will on others against their consent i would say that even goes to the core of why we
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don't like life extension but go on so there's a growing antagonism was in the tech
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accelerationist communities between the life extensionists and the pronatalist faction it
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surprises a lot of people that there is such such a level of antagonism but it makes sense
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in that really only one of the factions can win at the end of the day if all the technology that we
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both hope is realized the life extensionist faction there would just be too many people in the world if no one
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ever died and so they think they can solve the problem of falling fertility rates by extending
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the lifespan of the existing people whereas if you talk about prenatalism as a philosophy is often
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predominated by the idea that it is the height of arrogance to think that you are the cumulative
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of all human cultural and evolutionary improvement that is to me to believe that you are a superior
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race like you think that you can't do better than who you are and so we believe very strongly in okay
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creating another generation but the problem is there is always a vested advantage that people have
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if they have been in the system for longer if you look at the world today this is why you often have
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these old stogy people in positions of power it's why when you look at the congress and the senate and
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the president it's increasingly an aging demographic do you really want these people living forever do you
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really want the boomers potentially control human civilization for the rest of human civilization
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they might be doing that whether or not we have life extension if they screw up enough
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the way we view life extensionists versus non-life extensionists
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is that they are individuals if their job is to maintain an ancient athenian fleet
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their plan to do that is to take every board of the fleet dip it in resin have it stay exactly the way it
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is for five thousand years whereas the intergenerational improvement people they see the job is to
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regularly replace the ships with new models and what that means is that when you go 500 years into the
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future one is a fleet of athenian warships and the other is a modern war flea with submarines and
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aircraft carriers and yeah so what you're missing is what a life extensionist would say is oh you're
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implying that i who plans to live forever will not be iteratively improving myself i will be improving
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my biology i will be improving my mind but the problem with that kind of stance is ultimately if that's
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what you're doing you are changing so much that ultimately biologically and mimetically you will not
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be the same person we are not for the most part the same people we were when we were five years old
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that person is long gone and so the idea that you wouldn't just follow a far more efficient pathway
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and have kids or pass on your ideas to other people and let those ideas strengthen themselves
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through different perspectives and different bodies is ridiculous like why would you why would
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you undergo these crazy interventions to somehow iteratively improve technically in the same body or
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technically in a discontinued string when you could just do the system that has worked i love that
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point so much and so to use the analogy i was using before it would be like the person who's no i'm not
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dipping all the boards in resin what i'm doing is like technologically upgrading the ships and everything
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like that so in 500 years the ship that used to be a trireme will now be a modern submarine or an
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aircraft carrier exactly your point being so you've functionally done nothing you haven't preserved
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anything so why are you so afraid to give another generation a shot and i think the answer is
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transparent the answer is that they don't really plan to change that much they want to maintain
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some level of continuity with who they are today and if we look historically generations just don't
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do that people very rarely after and i don't expect to myself after i'm 50 or 60 do i really expect
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myself to change or update my beliefs that much no hold on we actually we have plans for that like
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we plan for example when we feel like we are starting to memetically and mentally ossify that's
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when we go hard on psychedelics because that's when the gullibility versus open-mindedness trade-off
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starts to be worth it for us and when in which we're okay with being a little bit more gullible
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absolutely and i think there are ways around this and this is one of the things that life
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extensionists will say they'll say you extend young age until later in life people's mental
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ossification won't happen in the way it happens with existing people today and i think that is a
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hypothesis but i think we will find that hypothesis is wrong as soon as life extension is invented and i'd
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actually love it if life extensionists could take a stand if it turns out that people don't actually
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update their beliefs that much when they're able to stay young for longer do you then say okay in
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that scenario life extension is bad and we should stop it and the answer is no you don't because you
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don't really believe that but welcome you're focusing on the wrong thing completely this is not about
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mental ossification this is about adverse incentives the primary reason why life extension is
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non-beneficial to populations is the cumulative power wealth and advantages that someone gains with
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time so the more you are alive the longer you are alive especially if you're successful and wealthy
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enough to afford life extension which let's be clear this is something that only the wealthy are
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going to be able to afford we're seeing in the united states we're seeing false economy i don't
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we're seeing lifespan fall down um right now i think only if you are wealthy and educated let's say
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okay let's say that anyone's able to do it but the longer you are living the more you have to defend
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the more stuff you have the more incentive you have to take what you've built and keep it so now
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it's you versus a bunch of other people who might supplant you who might take you know things you
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want who might use up resources that you want access to who might take attention that you want
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who might erode your political influence what are you going to do you are going to try to shut them
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out the reason why we have a gerontocracy now is that the people who are in power now have been
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defending their positions of power they're not letting new people come in and take their place and when you
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have life extension you have people who are very strongly incentivized to prevent younger generations
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new ideas new perspectives people also who very importantly have grown up in the new modern world
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of that time and know better than those who grew up in a different world what that new world needs
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those people are being kept out of positions of power and influence they're being prevented from
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building new solutions and that is extremely dangerous to human society so as much as i am against
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coercive measures to stop people from doing what they want to with their bodies i do think that
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society on the whole is made much weaker if you have a ruling class of very old people i think that's a
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really excellent point and i want to expand on it because i think a lot of people can look at this
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and they're like that's not intrinsically true but it is intrinsically true if you have built your power
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within an existing social or economic system you built your wealth within an existing social or economic
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system you lose if that system changes you are always and intrinsically or almost always intrinsically
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motivated to prevent improvement of the social and economic systems within which you reside whereas
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the youth are always motivated to change those systems because they benefit most from those changes and that is
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what allows for civilizational advancement in addition when people say you'll be able to stay mentally
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younger forever that is true but to simone's point you never get to grow up again within the new
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iterative social system that has been built you can really only have one set of formative years one set
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of five to the age of 15 you might be able to stay 20 forever but you're not going to want to
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increasingly revert to the age of five and then start over again i don't think that's a society that any
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life extensionist is looking to create when we see the way that our kids are engaging with technology
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like ai it gives them a perspective of ai that we could never replicate in ourselves even if i was able to
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stay 20 forever a five-year-old growing up alongside ai is going to have an understanding for how that
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technology can change our society that a permanent 20-year-old vampire person is never going to
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and when you prevent this intergenerational baton passing of power
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what you're really preventing is societal advancement and social experimentation and the
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motivation for those things at the structural level of society yeah and what we've seen a lot of
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people say on the life extension side because i'm trying to present their arguments as best i can
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it's not fair for us to just straw man them is okay i will admit that maybe we're not going to
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completely memetically and biologically replace ourselves the whole point of life extension is we
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want to keep some element of ourselves as continuous okay grant that and we also admit that being very old
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will lead to some adverse incentives that people will be incentivized to accumulate power accumulate
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influence and entrench themselves in these strongholds of power and prevent new generations from coming
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into influence things but don't worry we'll just create laws that force essentially term limits and
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positions of power or after a certain number of years you have to give all your wealth to the next
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generation and i think it's very naive to hold those views because when has that ever worked when
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has power ever been passed to people and those people promise oh yeah no we promise this is just
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temporary maybe there's some precedent for it but yeah
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it's really hard to imagine i'm even trying to think of maybe there's some kind of
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blockchain connected to whatever like life extension biology they have where if literally
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their wealth doesn't transfer out of a certain account by a certain age then like their biological
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anti-aging thing turns off but they would find a way around that you know they would find a way to
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create shell companies that hold the money i just it's the incentives are too strong and that's the
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those are the only arguments that i've seen that come close to defending this position and also i just
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can't understand how somebody could think it's better than the system we have now especially with
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the genetic changes that are happening in that system so when you have a kid you know a lot of that
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kids sociological profiles influenced by your genetic makeup but you're getting to choose
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anyone you want in the world to because unless you think you're perfect which i don't i chose a
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partner based on somebody who filled the flaws that i felt in myself so i get to one mix my dna
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with anyone i was able to convince to marry me in the world the person who is infinitely better than me
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and then i get to have this next iteration of myself give them any childhood i want to give them
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hopefully give them access to a better education than i had access to prevent them from having any
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of the hang-ups that i may have developed in my own childhood by giving them this better childhood
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and then better than all that throughout their childhood they get the chance to say hey dad
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this thing that you've come to believe is wrong they are not affected by my biases
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and one of the great things about research into biases that you see over and over again is knowing
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that you have biases does not prevent them from affecting you knowing that something is like a
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psychological trick in your brain doesn't make you immune to it and so you have all these rationalists
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and aaa people who are like oh i've studied all the way people come up with biases and it's like
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yeah but did you also study that knowledge doesn't protect you from those biases hardly at all because
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that's in the research as well what protects you from them is the intergenerational way
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that we transfer identity which is to say you're not clasping too hard to identity and i i think this
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is another really important thing that you are not afraid of death you understand that your life
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is to build a better future for the next and for future generations
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that you have a purpose with this life to prepare the future generations to be better than you
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and and to understand and have the humility to understand that i will never be able to improve
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on myself as much as my kids can because i can't see my own flaws in the same way that someone you
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tried to raise can see your flaws and my god we all see our parents flaws
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yeah we also see ourselves becoming our parents which is terrifying so i don't know but i think a lot
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of it comes down to how we perceive the concept of self and when you choose to define yourself
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more broadly by your your family or your community or your children whatever it might be
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that is where you become less afraid of death and i wonder if we were to pull and i'm sure people
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have actually be fun to look at this research communities that are more family oriented like
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in latin america there's so much more identification with family i am my family we are we are together
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if you were to compare interest in life extension across those cultures i think you would see
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especially very atomized cultures that are highly individualistic as being the most interested
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in life extension because they don't see their descendants as them they don't see their family
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members as them they don't see their culture as them they don't see their religions as them if they
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have religions at all so the only thing they can cling to is themselves and so i think in the end life
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extension is more it reveals more about how someone views themselves than it reveals about like their
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interest in technology or their interest in the future or their interest even in being in the future
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i think that you and i feel just as connected to the future and just as excited about the future a
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thousand years on as someone in the life extension community who genuinely believes that they the
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continuous they will exist in that future the great thing about advancement in ai and stuff like that is
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our descendants it doesn't mean that we really totally die when we die if our descendants really wanted
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to ask for any sort of advice we had to give them they could just ask an ai model trained on our books
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or depending on how people end up getting digitized with computers and stuff in the future
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you don't lose really information when people die you lose this like broad sense of information and broad
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sense of perspective but hopefully if they had something useful to say and they were smart they found a way to
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condense that information into something that could be passed forward into future generations
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but i think realistically what we have to say probably won't matter to future generations that
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much how much do you care to ask your great great grandparents about what you should do today or where
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society should go their world perspective was so different from ours why are we trying to ossify that
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yeah and there's there's another part of it too which i think is how we perceive
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our lives now like i see every day as a different existence and we've talked about this before like i sort
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of see every iteration of myself as a standalone extremely ephemeral blip of consciousness that is
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going to disappear and be replaced with time and every new experience every cell that is sloughed off and a
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new one that is regenerated that is a death and a new beginning and the person that i was even five
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years ago like i we can go back and look at old youtube videos of us talking and i feel like i'm
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looking at a complete stranger i am definitely not the same person and so to me even if i didn't have
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this view about being part of a long unbroken chain of ancestors and descendants that i'm excited to be a
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part of i think i would still see life extension as a bit of a farce because even within a normal
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human's lifespan totally in the absence of any technological intervention there is constant
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death and rebirth and we are definitely not the same people we are definitely not an unbroken chain
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so this idea that somehow we ever could be it's chasing after something entirely impossible when this
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comes to how you see continuation or the existence of a thing and the ship as easiest example is one
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we always used to love to use here which is you have this old wooden trireme traveling around the
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mediterranean and boards keep rotting and it keeps replacing them with new boards and then people ask
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okay at the end of the journey it's all new boards is it the same ship and then they ask okay suppose
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somebody had been following the ship of ccs and taking all the boards that were thrown overboard
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and then rebuilt an exact copy of that ship with those boards now which is the real ship
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and your body is doing this with memories with cells with perceptions the real answer is it depends on
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which definition you've used for continuation which is the real ship and to some extent it doesn't matter
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which is the quote unquote real ship right things change iteratively over time yeah then the question
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becomes okay how do you really define the ship of theses the ship of theses is defined by its purpose
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why it exists a thing to move people in the same way that fleet was defined by its purpose and that
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the person who decided to preserve every aspect of the fleet instead of iteratively improve it over
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generations defeated the purpose of the fleet by trying to maintain a sense of continuity within it
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and it's the same with identity why do you exist you exist to create a more prosperous future for our
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species your existence is defined not by your ability to indulge in the self but by your ability to
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contribute to the collective human tradition and identity and that is always best done through
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intergenerational improvement in the same way that the ship of theses as soon as you let go of the idea
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that who you are the continuous entity really exists in any meaningful context to begin with
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then you can say oh then what i am is my purpose and if what i am is my purpose do i better serve that
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purpose by living for a really long time or do i better serve that purpose through intergenerational
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identity transfer yeah or through creating a new culture or through creating a business or fueling a
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political movement if what we're describing doesn't feel intuitive to you at all what i would encourage
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you to do if you're watching this or listening to this is write yourself a letter in the future or
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leave yourself a voice memo for the future so all the time i do this all the time it's really fun i think
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the whole like my sense of continuous identity fell apart the first time i did this to myself and it was a
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school exercise in our freshman year of i don't know actually it was in middle school it's like when i was 13
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years old we were supposed to write a letter to ourselves that we would open just as we were about to
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graduate from high school and either enter the career world or go to college and reading letter from
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myself around 10 years in the past made me realize just how much i really wasn't the same person anymore
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and i could understand the interests of that person i could understand that we were both in the same
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kind of boat and interested in a lot of the same aims which of course was selfish betterment right oh
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i hope these things for myself and i hope those things for myself we just weren't the same person so
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try doing that like honestly a voice memo a letter a video you will find that this may change the way that
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you view life extension and i honestly wish i could model the other side better i don't like when we
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have just a sort of one-sided it's more they think that they can always do better for themselves i can
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continue to improve and the more time i have the better i can make things and also free humans from
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the suffering of death death to i i think people with a limited perspective is the worst thing that
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can happen to a human and i think that the foregoing of sort of self-identity as something that's
00:24:01.280
meaningful was a really big shift for me that i didn't make fully until meeting you simone and it was one of
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the big changes that you had on me i completely shed my identity when we married and that gave me
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the opportunity to really redefine for myself and my family what identity means and the way that we see
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it culturally our family the way we raise our kids seeing it the way that we see it ourselves
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is that when you are young you are at the lowest level of identity which is to be an individual
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and that is the weakest most pathetic form of identity then as you get older you get married
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and you become something more you become a partnership and your identity combines with
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another person and i think this is something that people we in emails we often get each other's emails
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and we interchangeably use each other's names and it's the same with our twitter account and the
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same with our authorship and the same as the way we do ceoship because we really consider ourselves
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as two faces of the same identity in a very meaningful sense that i think other people
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may underestimate and then you become a family which is a different form of identity you move away from
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even the idea of a partnership and you become a guide to something bigger but without controlling or
00:25:22.200
directly influencing that thing and then you pass on to the highest form of identity
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identity which is to be a memory and the impact you had on your family and society
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so life is a transition away from being trapped in this singular meat shell
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to being a more expansive concept and it is almost like a being foridianly trapped in a early stage of
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development from the perspective of our family culture to genuinely fear your own death outside of
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your own death happening before you can complete what you wanted to complete in life
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and that is something i fear constantly but that fear goes away with everything i complete every kid i have
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every time i put together some aspect of their education system so it can function even after i die
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another one of our books that we put together so that they would have some guidance if we died
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i see it as a list of tasks i have to do before i am free to die without consequences
00:26:26.520
yeah it's but it's also very i think very comforting i think it's difficult and scary to be afraid of death
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i wouldn't even say it's like an important ending i would just say it's almost ridiculous
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the transition in a cycle it's not even that much of a transition it's just it's it's irrelevant
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um it is just it is something but i think that's also folds into our mechanistic view of the universe
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that everything that will happen has already happened and everything that has happened is
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happening that'd be a fun one to talk about in a video in the near future
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germanism yeah with that kind of view it's weird to be afraid of any single moment that may
00:27:06.940
have happened or that has happened and i guess that view combined with our sense of self
00:27:12.480
makes us very unafraid of that fleeting nature of life but what i think is also interesting
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is that despite that you very much struggle like many ambitious people do with what you've accomplished
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so far in your life like i think you are it's a tickle clock you're very yeah you're very aware of
00:27:33.480
your mortality i'm very aware of my mortality i'm more concerned about but if i need to play
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with cheat codes to complete the things that i want to complete then maybe i'm not good enough
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to properly judge what needs to be completed yeah yeah but so you think you like the artificial
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we don't have to say artificial but you like the constraint you think that it's useful because you find
00:27:57.440
it motivating i guess there is that studies have found that when people are given a deadline
00:28:01.100
when people every person could enact everything they wanted to upon the world there's a bunch of
00:28:06.120
people with different hypotheses about what's best for the future of our species and everything like
00:28:09.920
that if everyone could just enact whatever they wanted to there would be a lot of conflicting things
00:28:16.720
so to an extent it's a competition of ideas and cultures to say that you get this sort of limited
00:28:22.920
time here very limited time here and if your ideas are good presumably you will be more effective
00:28:30.040
at seeing them enacted on the world or within your family in the same way that if we aren't creating
00:28:35.620
a good culture for our kids they can leave it and that's a beautiful thing that's a great thing about
00:28:40.620
intergenerationalism yeah i also think that studies have shown that when you give someone two weeks to
00:28:49.380
complete a project they complete it in two weeks when you give them two years to complete the exactly
00:28:54.460
same project they take two years so yeah having infinite time doesn't necessarily help you if
00:29:01.640
anything it delays society's receipt of your hard work that's a really interesting point i just noticed
00:29:07.600
all of my friends who are life extensionists after they became art at life extensionists they have
00:29:13.500
achieved almost nothing in their lives oh no interesting oh a number of them were successful ceos
00:29:19.600
before they jumped on the life extension train but after they jumped on the life extension train very
00:29:24.980
few of them have started successful companies or movements or ideologies do you think the assumption
00:29:31.780
is i'll just create that after i figured out life extension it's like that thing with genies my first wish
00:29:37.380
is to get infinite more wishes yeah and then your wishes get terrible
00:29:41.480
yeah because when you only have three wishes you've got to make them count
00:29:45.800
yeah interesting well i love chatting with you simone and i love that you have enlightened me so
00:29:51.660
much on this topic because this is one of the areas where you have really influenced my world
00:29:55.380
perspective and it was not like this before i was very much a life extensionist sort of person before
00:29:59.920
meeting you and i pulled you into the death cult you uplifted me into the death cult
00:30:05.100
um but the death cult will win because these crusty i mean if it's mortals versus immortals we're not
00:30:12.780
the mortals the mortals will always win because we're not afraid of change we're not afraid of death
00:30:17.840
and they are and it's fundamentally their fears that limit them i love that and and i mean it's also
00:30:27.420
fundamentally supremacist movements always fail they think they're better than anything that they could
00:30:34.020
create and to me that is the the height of arrogance um and and and it is that arrogance
00:30:42.820
that will blind them and why the mortals will always crush them then may we burn bright and die young
00:30:51.760
but live to speak another day the flame that burns half as bright burns half as long
00:30:57.260
twice as bright burns that the flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long
00:31:03.020
beautiful that's blade runner he says that in that anyway i love that note you're amazing i love you too