Based Camp - Cuckmaxing： If Better Men Exist Shouldn't You Raise Their Kids？

00:00:00.000 His tweet read, basically, when I have children, I do not want them to be genetically mine.

00:00:04.880 Instead, I will have someone better than me be the sperm donor.

00:00:08.440 My reasoning here.

00:00:10.060 I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to go through a Substack article.

00:00:12.260 Would you like to know more?

00:00:14.640 Hello, Malcolm.

00:00:15.660 I'm excited to be speaking with you today because we are going to be talking about whether people should voluntarily remove themselves from the gene pool.

00:00:25.300 like to become a parent but with someone else's genes even though they could reproduce on their

00:00:33.120 own like they don't have fertility problems because while we have friends who are very

00:00:37.260 consciously and intentionally choosing to not reproduce genetically for fear of passing on

00:00:42.680 like serious and genuine problems they have we also personally feel as we've discussed on various

00:00:47.940 podcasts like it would be child abuse for people like us to raise kids who are not genetically

00:00:52.220 ours just because we're so genetically weird and we know how to raise ourselves but no one else

00:00:59.880 really would and we wouldn't really be great for raising other people a friend of ours guy named

00:01:04.200 maddie who has a own weird following online who wanted to become a father and he was very dedicated

00:01:10.980 to this he's done a few like podcast interviews on it and stuff wanted to become a father but very

00:01:16.760 explicitly using somebody else's genes uh somebody who was like a nobel prize winner or something

00:01:23.520 like that right like i thought it was maybe going to be multiple other people yeah multiple other

00:01:27.880 men who were extremely successful in their fields more so than he was right and at the time i found

00:01:34.960 this just bizarre i was like why would you cuck yourself like that right and i i now understand

00:01:42.960 it a bit better. If you think that another man is strictly better than you, why not choose those

00:01:49.340 genes? Now, at the end of the day, I think this is a bad cultural strategy to use more broadly

00:01:54.160 speaking, because eventually the selfish genes that don't end up wanting to do this just end

00:02:01.520 up dominating the gene pool. You know, if it's always the father's choice, now there's a strong

00:02:05.840 selective pressure for people to get really disgusted by the idea of raising the child of

00:02:10.500 another person for that intrinsic feeling to win out in any culture that allows this other choice

00:02:15.560 and i note here a culture that did actually allow this historically for people who don't know are

00:02:20.000 the spartans in spartan culture you would if you felt another guy was just strictly better than you

00:02:28.380 like a better warrior a better guy you would have your wife sleep with him so that you could raise 0.94

00:02:33.020 kids that were stronger than you right like because that's what your status came from is

00:02:37.420 the strengths of your kids. Yeah, absolutely. Although I think another reason why we're more

00:02:43.280 moderated in that view of like, well, there's things about me that are not perfect is now

00:02:49.400 we're in the first generation of people who can select for and against traits, even complex traits

00:02:57.420 using polygenic risk score analysis. And we're probably within five to 10 years of even being

00:03:04.400 able to identify traits and then change them within your own embryos. I also think there's

00:03:11.380 a second pathway here that's going to be more relevant to a lot of our audience is, is it

00:03:16.200 virtuous for the men who were simply not able to secure a partner or the women who were not able

00:03:24.160 to secure a partner that they wanted to breed with and spend their lives with? Can you still

00:03:28.740 live an ethical life in the age of declining fertility rates? I mean, dating markets are

00:03:33.240 really broken. If you are an undesirable man, can you still live a life of meaning without

00:03:39.140 reproducing? And I'd argue very much so. If anything, you not being able to secure a partner

00:03:48.420 might be one of the signs that you shouldn't have burdened your children with the challenges that

00:03:56.000 you bore because of genetics that you didn't choose, by the way. Continue. Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:03.100 I mean, it is. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation, too, is that is that's a real

00:04:07.260 question. And it was brought up on X and discussed at length just yesterday on March 23rd. This

00:04:16.340 economic student named Nicholas Decker wrote that he would use if he did have children, he would have

00:04:24.900 someone else provide the sperm for his child and not him and his tweet read basically when i have

00:04:33.500 children i do not want them to be genetically mine instead i will have someone better than me

00:04:38.960 be the sperm donor my reasoning here and immediately critics mocked it as either

00:04:46.260 neo-eugenics or cuckoldry i'm gonna yeah i'm gonna go through a sub stack article i'm gonna

00:04:51.000 not read it in its completion but i'm going to summarize and use key quotes i'm also going to

00:04:55.420 read some of the refutations and i kind of like to go through because i think he makes a lot of

00:04:59.760 really salient points and and more much more nuanced than what i've heard anyone else discuss

00:05:04.380 yeah and and i'll point out here people are like well so do you literally think that you have the

00:05:08.940 best genes on earth malcolm that you couldn't find a single male with better genes than you

00:05:13.500 well it does

00:05:18.040 and my answer is well i mean yeah i do i i actually do he does yeah i didn't i didn't

00:05:27.640 want to have kids with anyone and then i met you and i was like huh i i'm gonna go for this

00:05:32.240 i could find a better like and somebody could be like malcolm how could you i'm like well you know

00:05:37.800 I've got you know degrees have you seen me the hardest to get into institutions I've done a lot

00:05:44.440 in terms of business philosophy in multiple fields I've created successful things I am

00:05:50.160 happy and mentally healthy for what I want to be like why wouldn't I want to replicate that like

00:05:55.280 I wouldn't even trade my life with somebody like Elon's because you know like there's nobody nobody

00:05:59.980 I do this with someone nobody on earth I trade my life with that I think has a better life than

00:06:04.540 i've been able to build for myself even though you know i can still hopefully turn reality

00:06:09.160 fabricator into an income source doing bc outreach and stuff like that right now but yeah anyway

00:06:14.360 continue yeah so here is his substack article it's called why my children will not be mine

00:06:22.000 and he published it on his substack homo economicus which has over 6k subscribers and this is you know

00:06:28.240 this is a uni student you know he's doing well he's clearly smart that's really good yeah so i

00:06:34.340 just I want to be clear from the start like this is not some anon faceless basement dwelling

00:06:40.600 unemployed neat incel who's miserable and depressed like this is someone who you know

00:06:47.380 is in school on their way up young precocious and thoughtful enough to gain a following on

00:06:53.880 sub stack okay so here we go he wrote I would like to have kids I'm quite set on this I feel

00:07:00.240 that I would be very happy raising them. I think I would find joy and purpose in helping them grow

00:07:05.000 and learn to do great things. I'm filled with great yearning that is not entirely in my control.

00:07:11.620 The same yearning which I imagine must affect the salmon as they travel upriver or the goose who

00:07:17.880 flies south for the winter. I also have a sense in which it is my duty to procreate. The world

00:07:22.420 becomes richer as more people are in it, and having more children would therefore make the

00:07:27.300 world better there is one thing though they will not be genetically mine it's such a great opening

00:07:32.580 because you're like okay wow he just sounds like your classic expansionist pronatalist like

00:07:36.940 understands the assignment person and then he's like but by the way i'm not myself genetically

00:07:43.260 reproducing he says this does not mean that i would adopt rather i would have someone else who

00:07:49.120 i consider to be genetically better than me be the father of the child i have thought about this a

00:07:54.080 great deal. And not only do I think it is the right thing to do, but it is something which

00:07:59.300 everyone should do. Here's why, which is, I'm glad he's making this, this claim. I'm like,

00:08:06.060 everyone needs to do this. Everyone needs to do this. It's a bold claim. And I like, I like it.

00:08:11.160 I like this. I like this guy. So here more or less summarized were his points. He wrote to start,

00:08:18.260 I think we can agree that it is bad to harm your children. And I agree. And I think this is one of

00:08:23.800 the most basic and simple points that you get, you know, when people choose to not have kids,

00:08:27.000 you brought this on a lot. A lot of people suffer from very severe depression or other mental

00:08:31.100 illnesses, and they would never want to inflict that suffering on their children. And it really

00:08:35.280 is kind of a form of abuse to, you know, have a child that you know is going to suffer immensely

00:08:41.500 like that. I mean, like, there are perfectly fine children whose parents, like, you know,

00:08:46.280 beat them or whatever, you know, is subject them to horrible experiences. And that sucks. And then 0.97

00:08:51.520 there are parents who give everything to their children and their children are still more

00:08:54.800 miserable than those like beaten children or deprived to children because they've just been

00:08:59.640 born with the card stacked against them so much mentally from a suffering standpoint. So, okay,

00:09:04.980 good point. But something you can address with apologetic risk or selection.

00:09:08.440 Actually, this is, we see this in our kids already. I am a happy, exuberant, vitalistic

00:09:15.000 person and it's very clear in our kids that they are the same way and i am that way in a way

00:09:22.120 children that there's literally such a thing as euphoric screaming like just

00:09:26.960 especially the euphoric screaming before the charge like these are like little pics like

00:09:34.700 like what they've never heard that like we don't it's not like we've watched

00:09:45.000 movies or anything that have this like euphoric battle cry in them i don't know where it just

00:09:49.940 like comes it's just deep in their in their dunna but yeah if you are a person inclined to perceiving

00:09:58.040 yourself negatively i can see why you might do this yeah he also writes we also know that genes

00:10:05.280 matter they affect life outcomes a substantial part of the variation in people's outcomes is

00:10:10.420 due to their genes. Okay. So he's setting the groundwork here. He wrote, if you would take

00:10:14.500 actions, which you would definitely change your children's genes for the better, then you should

00:10:18.920 also take them for actions, which changed them for the better in expectation. He basically sees

00:10:24.480 choosing someone else's genes over yours as just an extension of something like gene editing.

00:10:29.220 He wrote, they would still be your own children or else is an adopted child, not your own.

00:10:34.880 if someone is left an orphan as a baby and then brought up by a family who loves them whose child

00:10:40.880 are they would you love them less for not being your own or suppose you learn that the person

00:10:45.000 you believe to be your son whom you raised was in fact conceived by another man would you cast

00:10:49.520 that child out of your life i would hope yes yes i would you you have that very severe aversion

00:10:55.300 i would hope you do not if you are unable to do this because you would only love your own children

00:11:01.040 if they would be conceived by you then we would we would regard that as an unadmirable thing

00:11:07.180 not right and normal which i mean i see i see his point that like you know you bring a person

00:11:14.720 into your life you have a very close relationship with them you you raise them like in general i

00:11:19.920 don't i don't think we would laud your reaction which you can't control as virtuous right it's

00:11:25.220 just something you can't control he points out i think it's virtuous i think if a child isn't yours

00:11:31.060 you should cast it out like i i would hold my kids to the same standards as well i think it is useful

00:11:37.300 for a society to have this standard because it prevents parasitism yeah of the social group by

00:11:43.880 outsiders yeah i mean that's that is absolutely true just just so people know how powerful this

00:11:49.200 feeling is in malcolm we have a very controlled process whereby we create children we we undergo

00:11:56.380 ivf the medical controls in place just because they don't want to be sued by ivf clinics to make

00:12:02.160 sure that they don't mix up embryos or anything or eggs and sperm etc very rigorous malcolm still

00:12:07.880 has our kids dna tested every day like a paternity test with every kid because it's like i don't know

00:12:14.120 i don't know he needs to know i'm not gonna risk it but paternity testing you've i mean like i get

00:12:19.720 it but it's it's still funny it's like i it's not even like could she possibly have slept with

00:12:24.940 someone did they make a mistake in the lab it can happen no it can't and it it has happened so i also

00:12:30.320 get that but anyway this is where when people are like oh like i think like ben shapiro did

00:12:34.780 paternity tests and somebody was like oh like that shows he doesn't trust his wife it's like

00:12:39.000 no like it's just a very some people some men just have extremely strong instincts here i think

00:12:44.900 all men should have this in a cultural group the in equal i think all men should de facto 0.85

00:12:50.340 always paternity test their kids yeah but nicholas decker just it's clear that some men don't have

00:12:55.160 this instinct and that's i mean it just is but here's where it gets i think more interesting

00:13:02.820 and these are arguments that i i wish more people would make when they think about these things

00:13:06.860 He points out that just because one person is okay phenotypically, it doesn't mean their genes are optimal for certain desired outcomes.

00:13:14.960 I mean, what I guess maybe he was saying is like, it doesn't mean their genes are good, but I just don't think that there's anything as good or bad genes.

00:13:21.880 But anyway, optimal per year values.

00:13:24.580 He wrote further, your child's outcomes are correlated not only with direct genetic father, but also with your parents.

00:13:31.140 Outcomes are not a first order Markov variable.

00:13:33.940 if your family is mediocre then your child will also be likely to be mediocre even if two people's

00:13:39.840 phenotypes are the same you should choose the one whose family phenotype is better and i agree and

00:13:46.740 like when we have our kids date what we really want them to do is look at the family history like

00:13:52.320 hey get out your album show me the picture of your grandmother like let me see your mom how's

00:13:56.580 she looking so i was explicitly told by my parents to do this i'm so but no i've never i until i met

00:14:03.840 I'd never heard that ever but you heard it from me right like I was like yeah I was told by my

00:14:09.440 parents look at their their mom specifically the context from my dad was look at their mom to make

00:14:16.120 sure she's still going to be attractive when she gets older but I mean that's that's a culture of 1.00

00:14:20.740 family saying you date their family you need to look at their family you need to see if their

00:14:27.020 family is good enough um and i very explicitly vetted you based on your family their accomplishments

00:14:35.240 i was impressed with your dad's ability to you know pull himself up sort of starting from scratch

00:14:40.420 very late in life and the the and your sister has done really well and i was like okay so she has

00:14:47.260 successful people in her family obviously not at the extent of my family where like everyone's a

00:14:51.580 billionaire super genius except for me somehow the big malcolm i think you're doing really well

00:14:56.460 but like the things we value i i wouldn't switch with any of my siblings or cousins you know they

00:15:02.060 they're they have done exceptionally well in terms of their careers and business but none of them have

00:15:09.540 the public reach that i have which is what i value most so you know yeah yeah but i i just i'm glad

00:15:17.160 he brought that up though and i'm basically already there at least a footnote which is nice

00:15:22.060 i would like yeah i want i want your reach to go a lot further i want at least a few chapters on

00:15:28.660 malcolm and what happened with that just a couple chapters in all of history anyway i agree i i just

00:15:37.300 that that is a lot of what i am trying to do is just maximize your reach because you've had such

00:15:43.560 a positive impact on everyone's life i know who you've touched and i want to see that happen on

00:15:48.740 a more macro level it is so rare for somebody to be as unabashedly arrogant and unhumble as i am

00:15:55.200 and yet still people say i have a positive impact on them and i think it's because i give people

00:16:01.180 an excuse to see themselves that way like why why can't i just be as satisfied with my my life and

00:16:07.800 accomplishments as malcolm is you can choose to be anyone can but anyway i what i think is is really

00:16:13.600 important to note though is when people are like oh well intelligence you're just going to get

00:16:18.280 reversion to the mean okay but if you look at the mean and the mean is is high in a family like you

00:16:24.800 don't have to worry so much about that reversion but i mean so you're right and we can control for

00:16:30.480 that so he's absolutely right and it very well could be that he is exceptional per his family

00:16:36.880 and that he comes from some family of like hyper depressed you know whatever like just yeah like

00:16:43.300 and he actually writes after this and this is another thing that you and i talk about a lot

00:16:47.860 And again, super underdiscussed. And I feel very ambivalent about this too. And it comes to

00:16:53.440 encouraging people to have kids is he, he apparently appears to not really like his

00:16:58.940 family that much. He's, he wrote, you might also think that I will relate to them better as in

00:17:05.160 like the kids that would be genetically mine. If they're more like me, I disagree with this.

00:17:10.040 I would expect them to be like my family. I do not particularly care about my family.

00:17:14.880 I do care quite a lot about other people, including those who I have asked.

00:17:19.460 I would rather my children be more like them than my family.

00:17:23.400 And here's the thing.

00:17:24.700 This is something that you and I have only really come to understand having and raising

00:17:29.320 kids over a minimum of six years at this point.

00:17:33.500 Your partner and their family is so much in your kids' behavior.

00:17:40.360 And if you don't like your partner and you don't like your own family and you don't like

00:17:44.520 their family, you're going to have a tough time. And we, we know, we know people whose kids exhibit

00:17:52.340 the characteristics of, of partners and family members they hate. And it, they kind of hate

00:17:57.980 their kids. Yeah. And if you don't like yourself and then you have kids, you're not going to like

00:18:01.020 your kids, right? Or you don't like your family. Like you're going to struggle with that a little

00:18:04.860 bit. Well, hold on. I mean, this is different. You can, you can be the way that our kids. And

00:18:09.580 I mean, I already see this. I am not, I like my family, but I am different from my family in many

00:18:14.720 ways. Those differences I see very starkly in my kids, perhaps even more exaggerated than the ways

00:18:21.640 I am like my extended family. So it is not as if kids will not inherit the ways that you

00:18:28.940 psychologically differentiate from your greater family. Yeah. But also your mom and dad are super

00:18:34.900 in our kids yeah yeah my parents are super in the kids my parents too i see it in my parents too

00:18:41.400 it's just that like you're gonna see it and i i'm fond of all of them and so when i see it i love

00:18:46.840 like my late mother i love seeing her in our children because i feel closer to her what if

00:18:52.280 all you want to do is get away from your parents and then they're like leering at you through their

00:18:56.880 little children eyes the urban monoculture its core tactic is getting you to hate your parents

00:19:02.260 to believe that you have some, and many conservatives fall for this, that you have some

00:19:06.240 existential beef with people who probably tried to do their best for you and spent a lot of money

00:19:12.160 and time caring for you. And really your parents have to go quite far. I think given the cost of

00:19:19.080 parenting for you to have a negative emotional context to them, like your parents did an

00:19:25.720 astronomical amount for you and so to be like like if it's not like regular smexual abuse i'm like

00:19:33.560 you should probably i don't know what if they're a trash person you know what if they're just 0.98

00:19:37.720 you know they're they're very trash people still generally try to be good parents

00:19:43.280 right but and actually this was another note that i kind of wanted to think about and this is 0.87

00:19:48.940 something that other people brought up which i'm going to go through some of the responses after

00:19:52.400 we get through the end of this was you know there are good some people said this again i don't

00:19:58.600 believe they're good or bad genes i think that they're you know the the situation and context

00:20:02.860 and people change what's good or bad for every individual family changes over time changes based

00:20:08.300 on the environment still they're like well there are good and bad genes and then there are good and

00:20:12.320 bad parents and i absolutely agree that there are some people who are like superb genetic specimens

00:20:17.860 right like they're exceptionally smart they come from high achieving families but like they're 0.99

00:20:21.840 really bad parents and then there are people who are like just dumb as light posts you know but 0.96

00:20:27.940 they're just the most patient wonderful parents actually you know this is another little kerfuffle 0.94

00:20:33.440 that came up on x today where ala was catching heat for tweeting about like she was going through 0.95

00:20:39.600 her late mothers because her mother died late last year and it was rough and it was sad she's

00:20:44.100 now been going through i think some of her notes and personal personal possessions and

00:20:48.260 it's kind of just struck by the fact that her mom just wasn't

00:20:53.360 wasn't very intellectually engaged like ayla is amazingly intellectually engaged and she was like 0.84

00:20:58.680 just wow my mom was i think she might have even used the term kind of dumb and then you know x is

00:21:03.580 like ah but like she also said no i'm very fond of my mom and i loved her and she was a great mom

00:21:09.700 and she was very loving but you know through my conversations with her as a kid and now going

00:21:13.300 through all her notes like it's really clear there just wasn't a lot going on like she loved

00:21:17.100 parenting she was also in terms of like maybe reversion to the meme or you should look at the

00:21:23.140 family her grandmother she noted had actually very complex notes and thoughts and poems in

00:21:28.880 multiple languages whereas like her mom's notes were just like beep boop i'm a human i guess

00:21:34.020 yeah um like my parents are super your parents are very intellectually engaged as well

00:21:39.540 maybe sometimes with dumb stuff but very intellectually engaged nonetheless

00:21:43.420 i mean all of our parents have gone listen the the times were different but my my point is that i i

00:21:53.560 think there's also this issue of their their being and i think maybe this could feed the argument

00:21:59.060 being made here is that some people are really good parents but maybe they they wouldn't produce

00:22:05.360 the the most thriving people genetically and some people are thriving themselves genetically

00:22:12.460 but would be terrible parents and i don't know like maybe it's not the worst thing to try to

00:22:18.140 match really really good parents with really really good genes i guess that's kind of what

00:22:23.780 happens when you have exceptional and successful men and then just like really kind and loving

00:22:28.920 mothers they're like may not be that that successful but then i feel like it kind of

00:22:33.760 pulls down the average you know but what are your thoughts on that of like sort of this this

00:22:38.820 push and pull between a good parent versus quote unquote good genes which again i have enough kids

00:22:45.380 and you'll like one of them that's what i tell him no continue i want to hear more i want to hear

00:22:49.960 more of this okay yeah here's actually another very interesting pivot point which me may explain

00:22:54.960 and this is important why he doesn't have this disgust reaction to having someone else be the

00:23:03.400 sperm donor for kids he raises he was prompted to think about this after thinking about gay

00:23:10.100 reproductive logistics because at one point he dated a man it sounds like he's bi he says i came

00:23:16.240 to think of this because i've dated a man before if we were to have children and to actually create

00:23:21.220 new children not simply rearrange who has them it would be through it would have to be through a

00:23:26.660 surrogate only one of us could be genetically the father we would have to choose who the choice was

00:23:32.360 obvious though it should of course be him the children to come would have a better life if they

00:23:38.420 were more like him than if they were like me and also interestingly and importantly too he's still

00:23:44.700 open to being the genetic father if his eventual partner refuses to use a sperm donor he wrote i

00:23:51.220 am unable to oh if i am unable to convince my partner of this scheme i would still have kids

00:23:56.520 the old-fashioned way so he just I think he he morally believes in this argument but it's not

00:24:03.580 like he's one it's clear he got used to this idea from it seems like a long-term relationship with

00:24:08.740 another guy where they were talking about having kids and the other guy was just like I'm genetically

00:24:13.060 better than you like uh no I think he came to that conclusion maybe from love like I would be

00:24:18.660 happy to raise just perfect clones of you Malcolm I love you that much well we will get on that one

00:24:24.360 day don't you worry oh god i i know i'm too nervous i like i love me that much too simone

00:24:29.820 yeah i know where we are with cloning right now is is i think there's too much risk of like

00:24:34.580 sudden infant death and you know that that is like my darkest darkest fear so we're not doing

00:24:40.860 that until like you know it's 50 years of clone success i i'm i cannot be around maybe i we you

00:24:49.400 know both you and i feel like we're gonna die like in a year i i just have this this this terrible

00:24:54.020 feeling it maybe it doesn't help that like every single day like if there was some clock on the

00:24:59.220 wall of like you know hours since the last time a child told you a child told you they wish you

00:25:03.860 wouldn't die that would be like two hours for me now our kids are always like i love you and i hope

00:25:08.760 you don't die i love you and i hope you don't die but yeah i mean i yeah he he he was i think he

00:25:16.660 loved his partner but also i think he struggles with himself and with his family um yeah i mean

00:25:22.140 a lot of people are like this. The urban monoculture specializes in making people hate

00:25:26.540 their families. So the people who hate their families in modern society are incredibly large.

00:25:33.580 It's such an easy way to remove responsibility from your own faults from yourself. Oh, it wasn't

00:25:40.920 me. It was my parents' fault. And it's not even just the urban monoculture that does this. A lot

00:25:45.760 of cults like Scientology really focuses on this strategy. Oh, yeah. All the bad things that you

00:25:51.500 feel and think are because of things your parents your parents how dare they they they accepted you

00:25:57.220 with these things and now well that's it that's it for you well i mean you can also blame freud i

00:26:03.920 mean like people it's just a it's a truism for people to like well you know someone needs to

00:26:08.040 go see a therapist and figure out what happened in their childhood to make this app like there's

00:26:12.420 just this this pervasive understanding among some people who are like freud pilled even though he's

00:26:16.420 not he's not a reliable worse than freud is young yeah well i mean people who think they're not 0.95

00:26:24.060 stupid young is like the the the distilled you know he's he's the vodka of freud you know like 0.99

00:26:30.460 if all of the the obviously dumb stuff out but not the substantively dumb stuff out 1.00

00:26:36.700 oh yeah actually no yeah he's the young is the he's he's he's he's the gin he's the gin and like 0.90

00:26:44.140 freud is maybe like yeah at least freud has some spicy takes you know like yeah yeah young is is

00:26:51.200 just the swill just the like purified woo without any no with like pollutants put in that's why i

00:26:59.880 freaking hate gin it's just like so close to vodka we're almost there guys like but then let's just

00:27:05.320 throw in some i think another problem with young is that a lot of people are unaware when they're 0.98

00:27:10.780 consuming young in psychology or unaware how stupid like downstream of what they we have an 0.93

00:27:17.580 episode on jordan peterson where i point out that a lot of jordan peterson is just repackaged young 0.92

00:27:22.080 in psychology and and not good psychological frameworks to use another thinker who is very

00:27:28.060 big on young in psychology and people don't she like even wrote her thesis on it is erica

00:27:32.120 kind of commissar commissar she's the one who does a lot of like if you're not a good enough 0.56

00:27:37.560 parent like you're you need to spend your kids yeah like you know if you send your children to

00:27:42.420 daycare they'll be traumatized and etc etc it's just like not needed i i understand she's trying

00:27:49.420 her best it's just she's not an evidence-backed person and yet a lot of conservatives approach

00:27:55.820 her work as if because it feeds into their aesthetic because they're trying to encourage

00:28:00.800 people to raise intact families where there's a stay-at-home parent where they wouldn't need

00:28:04.600 daycare so they're like okay anything that feeds that and encourages parents to take that plunge

00:28:09.320 and have a homemaker is good so it's it's one of those things where it serves them well let's talk

00:28:15.460 about the reaction to this modest proposal don't have kids that are genetically yours in terms of

00:28:22.280 people immediately reacting with your kind of your same instinctual reaction richard hanania

00:28:28.660 wrote, having kids and seeing how much work it has made the decision to adopt even more

00:28:35.040 incomprehensible to me. No offense to those who do it, but I couldn't imagine putting up with all

00:28:40.380 the screaming and crying for someone else's child. In terms of a different line of reaction,

00:28:45.920 we had Michael Ebenstein post, why not have someone better than you raise them? And along

00:28:51.620 those lines, Ligament wrote. That's actually a fun take. I like that. I know. I know. Answer

00:28:58.200 this, Nicholas, if you truly love the children that aren't yours, you'll let someone that isn't

00:29:02.920 you raise them. And then Chris responded, the supply of good parents is much more restricted

00:29:08.420 than the supply of good DNA. And I do really think that that's an important point.

00:29:14.000 I actually agree with that. The point I would make here is why not just, sorry, I'm processing

00:29:21.220 here why not just if the person has superior genes to you they're going to be a superior parent to

00:29:29.980 you so why don't they have the kids no i don't that's not true i just i i hold very strongly

00:29:36.520 that a lot of people who have quote-unquote great genes and are very high achievers are actually

00:29:41.280 crap parents no what i'm saying simone and what you're missing okay definitionally you cannot

00:29:48.320 have good genes unless you are a good parent you might be perceived as having good genes 0.99

00:29:55.120 but that perception is incorrect so anyone who actually has genes that are better than yours

00:30:02.840 would have a stronger drive to be a parent than you and therefore and when i say good genes i

00:30:10.340 mean genes that are going to replicate themselves right like that are going to be successful in the

00:30:14.240 future and so if you take the genes of somebody who doesn't want kids but it's good at all of

00:30:20.920 these fields and you do want kids you might be intrinsically taking lesser quality genes

00:30:27.480 in terms of actual replication in future generations

00:30:30.620 because genes are only good if they're going to continue to self-replicate it doesn't matter to

00:30:36.560 just have one kid right you want to have a intergenerationally reproductive thing now 1.00

00:30:42.960 I guess we have to, we have to also stipulate that your definition of good parenting, which

00:30:46.940 you alluded to a little bit earlier is not what many other people would define as good

00:30:52.080 parenting.

00:30:52.380 Cause your definition of good parenting is like, well, did I turn out fine?

00:30:56.000 Then I'm great.

00:30:57.020 And like, if someone had like cut off your limbs and like taken out one of your eyes,

00:31:00.820 but like, you know, you became a billionaire, you'd be like, well, they were, they were

00:31:04.140 a great parent.

00:31:04.980 Whereas other people would be like, I'd say the hardship helped me.

00:31:08.480 Right.

00:31:08.700 Like, yeah.

00:31:09.120 case in point that but that's my point is that like most people would be like no that wasn't a

00:31:14.020 good parent they're more deontological whereas you're at the ultimate consequentialist parent

00:31:19.720 i think it's i i i will say that if any of our fans are considering this i am open to sperm

00:31:27.600 donations because clearly we're the one case where we're already trying to have as many kids as

00:31:32.760 possible we're also open to embryo donations but continue yeah i mean we've donated we've

00:31:39.100 donated three and i i was convinced i antinatalist simone i should have children when i saw pictures

00:31:46.120 of you as a kid i was like oh my god okay yeah yeah they are they're pretty cute so yeah i i

00:31:53.740 just i i want to i want to point that out and i'm making that point independent of your definition

00:31:57.960 of parenting i think i think children deserve love and support and i know you hate that and

00:32:04.180 you're just gonna have to deal with that you're just gonna have to deal with your kids getting

00:32:07.520 loved and cared for and and kept safe and most of them i do have one other kid out there

00:32:15.280 yeah that's true but i also believe that that child is incredibly loved yeah and well i mean

00:32:22.020 my my dna is very loving like i our kids run up and randomly hug us and i don't think that's oh

00:32:27.940 dude our kids i had a problem taking them to the graveyard on on sunday because on our walk our

00:32:33.480 kids just kept running up and hugging strangers and like oh okay it's like I'm sorry and they're

00:32:39.580 like it's okay they're just so excited I think that's the normal reaction to seeing someone is

00:32:46.900 running up for real and like unfortunately like they're they're you know right at like

00:32:51.480 their heads come in right at your hips and it's just not the best thing for us to have our kids

00:32:57.300 doing that to strangers because also they sort of tackle hug anyway I don't know how to deal

00:33:03.080 with this we can't go out in public but they're so sweet and i love them so bill boost wrote

00:33:07.700 something has happened to drive a significant degree of western society into a kind of

00:33:12.960 suicidal cuckoldry it is unprecedented to my knowledge and utterly bizarre no civilization

00:33:19.140 has welcomed enemies inside its gates with open arms while denying what those enemies say

00:33:24.680 they want to do every day no civilization had men who preferred not to pass down their genes

00:33:30.720 something is very sick with our society. And I think this is associated with certain racial 1.00

00:33:38.020 undertones, the broader point minus the racial undertones about the urban monoculture, just

00:33:44.060 creating people who pathologically hate themselves when in the absence of that culture, they

00:33:49.280 wouldn't. Yeah. There was a more structured refutation on Substack actually in a comment

00:33:57.460 because Substack like has this vibrant, thoughtful community still. I thought it was going to be very

00:34:03.060 ephemeral and it really is holding strong. Thomas Pueyo, I don't know how to pronounce his last

00:34:08.080 name. I'm so sorry, but he has his own podcast or sorry, Substack that I've heard of before called

00:34:12.940 Uncharted Territories, wrote the following comment as a response to this essay by Nicholas. He wrote,

00:34:21.940 I saw this idea of your writings and I've been thinking about it ever since. I respect and

00:34:26.980 admire you and your ideas enough that i think it's very important to share how wrong i think

00:34:31.620 you are here and then he numbered out a series of points starting with one that you will

00:34:36.120 immediately find makes you bristle because we did a whole episode on how you hate this but he calls

00:34:41.540 it one not lindy this is the least lindy idea ever evolution has operated for billions of years under

00:34:48.220 the force of having your own children you are going against all these years of a proven mechanic 0.99

00:34:53.820 to see our episode on day lindy is is the dumbest concept ever it is it's just a stupid concept 0.91

00:35:00.520 it's it's wrong even the very term was miscoined it's supposed to mean that older ideas that are 0.87

00:35:08.300 shared more often break faster that was what the original concept was and the person who wrote the

00:35:13.600 book on it who is a pathological liar see our other episode on the lab that coined the term

00:35:19.420 just bad all around pseudo intellectual term but even if you're saying it's it's i pointed out this

00:35:25.580 was common in spartan society this was common in some parts of roman society this has been common

00:35:30.060 throughout human history too it was actually in i think in pre-islamic society they might even ban 0.93

00:35:35.520 this in islam because it was so common really uh so it's one of the forms of of marriage that is

00:35:41.160 banned because like 14 forms are banned or something but yeah you would which shows that

00:35:44.740 must have been practiced widely in the region yeah yeah sleep was the village chief so that

00:35:50.620 you could have a kid that was like technically the village oh oh yeah because i would have

00:35:55.240 and well and also come to think of it you had this absolutely and at least the tutor court

00:36:01.540 because you would have these these noble families essentially whoring out their daughters to be

00:36:06.540 mistresses of kings to have bastard sons to get privileges and access so oh gosh yeah actually 0.99

00:36:13.660 And these were married women whose husbands would be sent off to the countryside. 0.83

00:36:18.000 No, but I mean, this is what I expect from the type of person who'd use the term anti-landing,

00:36:21.280 is immediately draw out ideas that show he doesn't have a lot of historical knowledge.

00:36:26.140 I knew you'd come at him, but he makes other points too, so I shall proceed.

00:36:29.500 Two, evidence.

00:36:30.960 Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

00:36:33.820 Usually, in your other essays, you bring it to the table.

00:36:36.580 Here, for a decision that's so important, your essay is just a series of a few arguments

00:36:40.880 with no data to back many of the assertions.

00:36:43.320 what evidence no hold on this guy's a tard i'm gonna say that right now what evidence other 0.89

00:36:49.080 than genetics genetics is huge genetics is everything i know i know based on his his

00:36:55.420 argument is that genes influence character and i think i can find better genes that is not an

00:37:01.960 article that needs any more evidence unless you lack a knowledge of basic science yeah i'm glad

00:37:07.540 to respect this guy because i respect him too and i i really appreciate that he put this argument

00:37:11.740 out there because it's a very thoughtful one and i think people should be allowed to raise my kids

00:37:15.740 that's why i respect him okay oh great thanks i i actually would love for him to consider apologetic

00:37:22.540 risk or selection because i feel like maybe there's something in there that he he could maybe

00:37:25.900 feel more comfortable about if he did pgp but anyway this ultimately comes down to the partner

00:37:30.860 that he's with because i want to hear more argue i want to hear more bad arguments three extremely

00:37:35.500 high stakes evolution is operated to give you fulfillment out of having children the more you

00:37:40.220 have the more fulfillment you get if you get this idea wrong you will jeopardize one of the biggest

00:37:44.980 sources of fulfillment you could ever have now that you probably have fulfillment from raising

00:37:49.320 adopted kids even people who have had a bunch of kids it's true and in fact when you see like where

00:37:54.120 i see adopted kids the most in just like in the wild is very pronatalist families who have a lot

00:38:01.100 of kids like you'll see like eight kid family and like two of them just look different and it turns

00:38:06.740 out that they hired like or they they adopted siblings that they fostered or something like

00:38:10.000 that and it's incredibly beautiful and wonderful that they did it and they clearly did it because

00:38:14.620 they love children and love giving people good lives and love parenting and i think it's so

00:38:19.380 beautiful and while we would be terrible adoptive parents i think it's beautiful that people can

00:38:23.760 recognize when they are good adoptive parents because there are kids out there who really need

00:38:27.440 it really need it because they're also really bad parents out there i just i don't know if you saw

00:38:33.320 of like the asmongold thing recently with like a drug addicted mother who was found like chained 1.00

00:38:37.720 inside a building and like then she's like yeah i have a one-year-old daughter and i was just like

00:38:42.600 oh god and i just stopped watching the video then because just like the fact that that there are

00:38:46.540 people who are so unfit to be parents and not necessarily genetically but just through their 0.93

00:38:51.940 life circumstances that they could they could have children and possibly put them in such dangerous

00:38:55.660 terrible scenarios makes me devastated and sad and the fact that there are families willing to

00:39:00.580 adopt children out of these dangerous and terrible scenarios makes me so grateful. So anyway, I agree

00:39:04.720 with you. Okay. Right. Four, it's better for your children if they're yours. And I think the 0.51

00:39:11.720 evidence is in favor of this. He wrote one key way to optimize the happiness of your children is by

00:39:16.240 loving them more. So if you love them even a bit less, they're likely to be less happy. Your

00:39:20.980 argument against this is weak quote. I have some people more, or I, I like some people more than I

00:39:27.480 like my family, end quote, is logical because you're a young adult programmed to actually not

00:39:32.560 love your family as much so you can go and explore the world. Then you have children and they are by

00:39:38.580 far the thing you love most in the world. Your parents, siblings, aunts, et cetera, pale in

00:39:43.700 comparison. Of course, that's what evolution would do. Evidence suggests that if the children are not

00:39:49.220 genetically yours, you'll love them less. You've probably seen data on how the less related a

00:39:54.120 child's parents are, the more the child is likely to suffer from abuse, physical and sexual. Yeah,

00:40:00.320 it is. Children from two biological parents are two times less likely to get physical and educational

00:40:04.840 neglect and are four times less likely to get emotional neglect. Fourth natural incident study

00:40:10.420 of child abuse and neglect, NIS 4. I think it is chart 5-3. There was a better one, but I can't

00:40:16.400 find it. You won't abuse your children, I assume, but this is very strong evidence that you'll like

00:40:21.420 them less if they're not biologically yours so they'll be less happy and that is i think a valid 1.00

00:40:27.100 point but i also think it's less applicable to him yeah and you'll you'll notice this in your

00:40:32.220 kids are just you like they are you they'll have all your quirks they have all of your personality

00:40:37.220 but also if you hate you don't you think that i mean i think that there are some parents who are

00:40:41.660 terrible cruel parents toward their children because they see what they hate in themselves

00:40:46.980 in their children and then lash out at it yeah no no no so it's a double-edged sword you know

00:40:52.500 i i think that both of them have valid points i think no but i think it is no i don't think

00:40:57.860 both of them have valid points no i think the first one has valid points stick one has no

00:41:01.020 valid points arguments are are are fake and gay as they say they are not nicholas go malcolm go i 0.83

00:41:07.560 love it i love it no look if you i'm team nicholas too don't worry i i think the biggest accurate

00:41:13.920 point he makes is that at this stage of this person's life their perception of their family

00:41:21.520 and their ancestors is biologically weighted against it to try to get them to leave the nest

00:41:27.980 because yeah you're in rebellion phase like of course you're gonna not like your family because

00:41:32.380 that's what you're supposed to be feeling right now and you've been raised in a society that

00:41:36.200 tells you it's virtuous to not be proud of your own ancestry and people so you have that secondary

00:41:42.440 issue as well i mean who's the bet that this person who he says he likes more than himself

00:41:46.980 is a different race right like he might be one of these you know self-hating white people who sees 0.89

00:41:52.180 a non-white person and is just like well my genes as a whatever are not good yeah like my 0.95

00:41:59.060 inherent white guilt something something i don't think so and i say this because

00:42:03.640 i don't know why but he follows us on nicholas the one who posted the the sub stack not not the

00:42:10.420 refutation the actual argument follows us on x and maybe it's a hate follow it could be but like

00:42:15.340 typically if someone follows us on x they're not that type of person yeah they're not that cucked

00:42:20.280 yeah because we're good at breaking the cuck storm like people start to watch us out of hatred they're

00:42:24.840 like oh i've heard that you guys are evil and then they watch and they go oh oh this makes a lot of

00:42:29.220 sense i have no idea i can't model all the people i'm just the people are cool so i like them

00:42:35.840 Anyway, let's keep going through his arguments though.

00:42:37.960 Five, variance versus expected value.

00:42:40.540 A quote, better person genetically, end quote,

00:42:42.840 than you might have a better expected value

00:42:44.980 in the quality of your child.

00:42:46.860 But the variance is so high in the children you get

00:42:49.460 that odds are still high.

00:42:51.840 Your child is worse off with somebody else's child. 0.85

00:42:55.220 For example, if you get a donor

00:42:56.400 that is five IQ points higher than yours,

00:42:58.540 what are the odds that his children

00:42:59.820 would be more intelligent than you?

00:43:01.420 I'm going to guess it's closer to 50% than 100%. 1.00

00:43:04.580 that's the stupidest argument i've ever heard i mean but there's still variants the odds are 0.95

00:43:10.760 still higher that's true matter that there's no guarantee the point is the odds what 1.00

00:43:17.500 this is a bit like a jehovah's witness telling somebody well can you guarantee the blood

00:43:24.540 transfusion will save my child and you're like well i mean the odds are it will save your child

00:43:30.380 and they're like ah if you can't guarantee it then how dare you suggest i use it it's like well 0.98

00:43:37.040 what the like how how can a person like a sentient human being be this stupid also if he selected 0.83

00:43:43.640 someone else's genes and did polygenic risk or selection you can also control for that more 0.99

00:43:48.540 yeah this is that no bad argument continue next high bar you are already quite intelligent and

00:43:54.420 bright odds are your gene quality is quite good already some examples of that include your essays

00:43:59.620 your thinking is good your precociousness your ability to come up with many new ideas including

00:44:03.620 this one your success at finding a fitting community and your ability to communicate

00:44:08.320 complex ideas well trying to further improve the pool has dramatically less potential impact than

00:44:13.820 if other people did it much less impact than you think it would i mean i agree that nicholas seems

00:44:19.340 to be like a pretty i'd i'd push back here i'd say that as somebody who is not nicholas you can

00:44:28.880 not easily model or your your modeling of nicholas's self-perception is intrinsically less

00:44:34.880 than nicholas's own modeling of his self-perception yeah you know yourself best that is absolutely

00:44:40.360 true yeah i mean he knows nicholas knows he wouldn't like raising a kid with his personality

00:44:45.840 quirks then it's insane by the way all these things that i even thought were just like

00:44:51.300 behavioral things i picked up from nurture turned out to be nature like weird annoying stuff i do

00:44:57.960 with my hands like i hold stuff funny to like not touch it with like the pads of my fingers but

00:45:02.940 instead like that ends it like like a retard one of our kids does it and he never saw me do it 0.92

00:45:08.140 because i try to hide it i'm very ashamed of it and i'm like oh god that was genetic like it's a

00:45:12.000 sensory issue so just yeah the the the profundity with which things that you might hate about

00:45:17.160 yourself will show up in your kids is a valid it's valid it's very valid i still love toasty i love

00:45:22.760 him so much he flip side of that is is when you see this in your kids and maybe you hated it in

00:45:29.160 yourself for the first time because of this overwhelming love you have for them you will

00:45:35.320 maybe for the first time give yourself grace and that has been really transformative for me in

00:45:40.280 terms of self-acceptance as someone who deeply hates themselves so counterpoint for nick there

00:45:45.060 which okay is important okay let's go to another point multi-dimensionality of a better parent

00:45:52.820 How are you going to measure if somebody else is a better parent than you?

00:45:56.120 An IQ test is one measure of many.

00:45:58.340 For example, many high IQ people are worse than you at communication or at being able

00:46:05.060 to rethink what society takes as given.

00:46:07.860 Will you measure the candidates across all the dimensions of good gene quality that exist?

00:46:13.700 Are you then going to do a weighted average of their quality score?

00:46:17.600 How are you sure you'll take into account all the dimensions that matter?

00:46:22.000 that you can properly measure the relative importance of each factor. I believe you would

00:46:27.320 have no reliable way to tell whether somebody is actually better than you. So your confidence that

00:46:32.720 you can get somebody better than you to father your children is very low. So I disagree because

00:46:38.860 like if we had to choose between cloning me or cloning you, both you and I would decide it's

00:46:44.100 clearly going to be you, Malcolm. And I think he- Depends on how many people. If I had to build an

00:46:50.640 entire society i would want them to be simones if i had to add a few more exceptional people to our

00:46:55.820 society i would choose malcolm yeah well yeah it's like the the farmer versus the king like you need

00:47:00.480 both but if we could only clone one child and we knew that they wouldn't die in infancy then we

00:47:05.440 would clone you and and i think this is what nicholas experienced with his partner too like

00:47:09.580 when he just thought intuitively about like well if we decided to have a kid together well obviously 0.50

00:47:13.660 we'd use his sperm like he didn't need to think about it and i think it's enough to allow someone's

00:47:17.980 intuition to be like, nah, we know. I have no qualms about the fact that I would choose you, 0.97

00:47:24.680 Malcolm. I have no qualms about that either. I would think it would be very strange.

00:47:28.160 That's the thing. Yeah. I think that Thomas Pueyo is overthinking this. Okay. Eight,

00:47:32.860 pool diversity. Along these lines, I don't think all genetic diversity is equally valuable,

00:47:38.100 but some is. By choosing somebody else, you'll be weighing some factors as more important than

00:47:42.420 others. But how do you know those factors you weigh are really less important? Maybe in the

00:47:47.520 future they become more important like a parent optimizing their children in stem in a world where

00:47:51.520 ai solves science but not taste there is value in genetic and idea diversity pool your diversity

00:47:57.620 is unlikely to be the type we want to waste only i don't know only if this argument only works if

00:48:03.880 tons of people are doing what he's suggesting here yeah it's just a unique this is a this is

00:48:10.180 a completely invalid argument continue yeah nine adverse selection if you are able to find a person

00:48:16.580 that looks so good on paper and that would accept to be the father of your children this person

00:48:21.280 would potentially show two huge flaws that make him worse than you one this person would be

00:48:26.460 substantially less humble and more arrogant than you he would think he's strictly better than you

00:48:31.180 across all the dimensions that matter he preemptively insulted no yeah this is not bad i feel

00:48:37.940 this way about my parents all the time yeah i am strictly better than them in every dimension

00:48:42.700 and they treat me the same way like this is actually one of the things that other people

00:48:47.600 have noted about my relationship with especially my dad that they see is very odd like my stepmother

00:48:53.580 has noted this before that like he genuinely seems to like respect and even fear my opinion

00:49:00.980 and i appreciate that he raised me knowing that i could be better than authority figures in my life

00:49:08.120 just like intuitively by never demanding that like i am the head of this household and everybody

00:49:14.800 in the household knows less than me you know two to to continue with thomas pollo's point

00:49:22.640 two the person is much less honest than you as he's faking his markers of market value

00:49:28.380 to he wrote then might want to sear your children but i think he meant to write that might want to

00:49:33.080 sire your children this is like groucho saying he wouldn't want to join a club that accepts him as 1.00

00:49:37.900 a member now you and i in in a member of paid subscribers only episode interviewed a woman who

00:49:44.640 who went through the process of getting a known sperm donor through a facebook group largely

00:49:51.580 because in many cases working through a sperm bank involves working with pathological liar sperm

00:49:57.100 because you actually get accepted by a sperm bank you kind of have to like if you're like well my 0.93

00:50:01.660 grandmother died once they're like she died like of what okay you're out you know like if you're

00:50:07.360 if you're honest in in any way as a kid you're out yeah yeah it's it's like are you kidding me

00:50:14.300 it's so you are i i totally get that he's right about that but this is not what nicholas is

00:50:20.680 describing nicholas is describing what's insinuated in his sub stack essays that he would

00:50:25.360 choose like a known friend you know someone he is very close with who he's lived around who he

00:50:29.940 understands behaviorally very well like it's a known donor situation or like even possibly a

00:50:36.540 a gay male partner who he like literally is living his entire life with so anyway 10 danger of 1.00

00:50:42.460 subconscious virtue signaling what it might be that your brain is tricking you to say this because

00:50:48.420 it sounds like the most ea thing you can say yes yes i agree with the only good argument okay this

00:50:55.120 is very yes because we talked about in another episode this this new preponderance of young men

00:51:00.320 in the uk just donating their kidneys to strangers and i think this is like this hyper stimuli of like

00:51:05.360 I'm an effective altruist. Take my organs. It's just horrible. This is the most common in young

00:51:11.300 adults, as you probably know, and becomes much less true in other settings. Example,

00:51:16.180 different peer group, different age, different brain chemistry. To be clear, I don't think you're

00:51:21.360 being facetious. I think you believe what you say, but this sounds like the type of situation

00:51:26.580 your brain might have an incentive to lie to you in a way you don't realize. Okay, so you agree

00:51:31.560 with that point i agree with that point it is a genuine risk and it's what's great is that this

00:51:35.700 is not an imminent thing and because he put that idea out there because he tweeted this and he put

00:51:41.280 this on substack he is able to consider people's various arguments and actually think deeply about

00:51:46.380 this leading up to him eventually maybe making this decision with a partner and i love that

00:51:50.700 and this is why i wish people had put their hot takes online everyone's so afraid of being

00:51:54.800 criticized and the fact that this is a young man and that he's not afraid of putting out ideas that

00:51:59.200 might get criticized and might get ridiculed and even called like a cuckold is just so great can't

00:52:04.460 people do that like can't we have just discourse about ideas for once without being shamed yeah

00:52:10.260 so i i need to talk about why intergenerationally this as a cultural strategy is very bad and i and

00:52:17.100 i mentioned at the beginning but for people who don't quite grok what i am saying here suppose

00:52:21.680 you have a society where it is normal for every male to either decide to sire another male's kids

00:52:27.960 who they think is better than them or decide that they have the best genetic quality of among the

00:52:32.440 partners they can get and they're going to sire their own kids okay now within some people of

00:52:36.980 this society there is a visceral disgust at the idea of raising somebody else's kids now you have

00:52:42.440 created a extremely strong selective pressure for that visceral disgust if this is ever normalized

00:52:49.680 to become very common because every male who gets selected who has this now refuses to do it for

00:52:56.580 their own kids and this is why you just simply shouldn't do this i've actually seen this in the

00:53:02.720 children of many like i've met multiple pronatalists people who want to have lots of kids

00:53:08.500 who are born from like mass sperm donors um like the idea that this is a heritable thing this i

00:53:20.380 want to have just tons of kids is is pretty borne out in the evidence and so you you're you're

00:53:25.760 actually creating a social construct that can't survive in the long run what you really mean from

00:53:31.800 kids like the most valuable trait to pass on to the next generation is wanting to be a father

00:53:37.220 while still being high income and high intelligence if you are those things which it appears you are

00:53:42.580 you want to be a father and you are high intellect that is an extremely rare genetic phenomenon in

00:53:49.580 the current population. Much rarer than phenomenon associated with just general

00:53:55.580 intelligence or career success or anything like that. As such, that's what I think he's

00:54:02.840 fundamentally missing in all of this. Well, maybe this kind of dovetails with Puyo's

00:54:07.200 last point titled 11 additional points. There are two. The only way in which I think this could

00:54:15.220 makes sense if is if your essay is geared towards convincing normies to do this with your gene pool

00:54:21.560 in which case you'd be maximizing your offspring although making each less happy because they're

00:54:26.800 not hanging out with their biological father pretty machiavellian i don't think this is true

00:54:31.480 b timing by the time you have to make this decision science might be good enough that you

00:54:35.880 can edit your future child's genome optimizing iq and whatever other measure of quality you want

00:54:41.300 which is very true takeaways your idea sounds laudable but it's not lindy oh malcolm's already

00:54:47.500 shaking with rage it doesn't have enough evidence it is unlikely to be actionable you'd likely make

00:54:53.220 you and your children both biological and non-biological less happy and fulfilled and it

00:54:57.860 would be optimizing for the wrong reasons the upside is lower than you think the downside is

00:55:01.880 higher than you think and there are high probabilities of this going awry and you're

00:55:05.900 possibly lying to yourself so he was just categorically against this but i think where

00:55:09.740 you're coming out of this is like hey people are capable of making their own judgments of what's

00:55:14.380 best maybe nicholas is is doing what's best for him but but generally speaking i think it's a bad

00:55:19.780 idea and generally speaking i think it's a bad idea because it's not an intergenerationally stable

00:55:24.240 idea and he is massively underestimating the rareness of wanting to be a father and being

00:55:33.740 intellectually engaged yeah he's already showing so many signs of like you should be having all

00:55:38.900 and just that opening paragraph of him being like i really want to have kids i want to raise kids

00:55:43.900 like i i feel this deep desire to do it it's like oh my god yeah like this is the sign for somebody

00:55:51.080 who doesn't have that desire yeah then you are going to create children who are not useful to

00:55:57.420 the next generation um as to what's causing this i think we're actually learning from the beginning

00:56:03.420 because this came from a gay partner and deciding which of them would have kids this may also have

00:56:07.980 an element of a genuine sexual fantasy tied to it and i would not risk your lifetime which you're

00:56:17.060 gonna have to spend with this other person as part of an arousal pathway if if that is polluting your

00:56:23.360 decision you and i even say this for spouses right so like yeah people on x were ridiculing

00:56:29.040 but what you're saying is like look i don't care if that's what it is but don't do stuff because

00:56:33.500 it feels good yeah i say this was marriage i'm like don't marry someone because the sex is good

00:56:38.440 right like sex arousal compatibility this is of all the differences i have with ayla the biggest

00:56:43.580 one i have for her like partner survey it's a bunch of things to see if they're compatible with 0.88

00:56:47.420 her in terms of her sexual proclivities and i'm like this is nothing to do with who you marry

00:56:53.540 marriage is a business contract yeah yeah like sexual proclivities you what that that has once 1.00

00:56:59.800 Once you got six kids, you're not going to care how dommy they are. 0.99

00:57:03.580 You know, like this stuff is not relevant.

00:57:07.080 So I don't, I find that to be, by the way, people are wondering why I think anti-Lindy 0.64

00:57:11.140 is as a concept is so stupid is what anti-Lindy does is it takes something that is obviously 0.91

00:57:17.940 true that in an environment, e.g. the historic environment of, let's say like the middle 0.99

00:57:23.840 ages or the 1950s or whatever where not much is changing entities or ideas or concepts or things

00:57:32.080 that have out-competed other things in the past was in this stable environment they are likely to

00:57:37.760 out-compete other things in the future and it does this by looking at the historical record

00:57:41.880 but if you look at the modern record we have not seen this trend and that is because we are no

00:57:48.840 longer in a stable environment so i can't trust the fact that an idea outcompeted something in

00:57:54.900 the 1950s to measure or predict whether or not it's going to out predict something in 2030 when

00:58:01.780 we have whatever ai economy we have then okay i know i know kind of arguments people have made

00:58:06.420 to that is go to a walmart most of the things that are on the shelves have probably been there

00:58:10.400 for five plus years i wish i had time to respond to this here but the point of the argument i always

00:58:14.940 make on this is if a society is stable, then things will stay the same. So for the past five

00:58:24.780 years or so, things have been about stable in regards to food consumption. So things that

00:58:30.500 were winning five years ago continue to win today. But if you go to a Walmart, almost nothing

00:58:38.640 on the shelves would have existed in its same form 50 years ago so that's the point i'm making

00:58:45.960 is it's not that uh you know everything will necessarily be there because it wasn't there

00:58:51.660 two years three years ago it's it was in an existing environmental context i don't have

00:58:56.940 time for this i'm really glad we had this conversation because i thought it was a really

00:58:59.940 great argument he put out there i really like his thought-provoking points so thanks for talking

00:59:05.580 about them with me i love you today simone i have a spectacular day and what are we doing for dinner

00:59:11.300 the the chili with some bottle like in hoisin sauce and that was pretty good shishito peppers

00:59:17.260 do you want me to add like msg to it tonight would you like me to serve it like sloppy joes on hawaiian

00:59:22.460 buns no you can serve it on rice but i'm gonna bring my chips down for it too because i might

00:59:26.920 want some on chips oh smart i like that okay i love you bye bye so where are you

00:59:33.660 Up here.

00:59:36.340 Where is that?

00:59:39.660 Go up the steps and climb on the compass.

00:59:47.640 Why did you want to go up there?

00:59:49.140 Because I love being high up here.

00:59:54.460 Why do you like being high? What if you fall?

00:59:56.760 I won't fall.

00:59:59.240 What makes you say that?

01:00:03.660 Sometimes, when these are not here, I won't fall, and sometimes, when these are here, I will not fall.

01:00:15.660 So the railing is why you won't fall.

01:00:18.660 Yeah.

01:00:21.660 And, except, this is not when I want to fall.

Based Camp - March 25, 2026

Cuckmaxing： If Better Men Exist Shouldn't You Raise Their Kids？

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