Cuckmaxing： If Better Men Exist Shouldn't You Raise Their Kids？
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss whether people should voluntarily remove themselves from the gene pool, like to become a parent, but with someone else's genes, even though they could reproduce on their own (even if they don't have fertility problems).
Transcript
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His tweet read, basically, when I have children, I do not want them to be genetically mine.
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Instead, I will have someone better than me be the sperm donor.
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I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to go through a Substack article.
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I'm excited to be speaking with you today because we are going to be talking about whether people should voluntarily remove themselves from the gene pool.
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like to become a parent but with someone else's genes even though they could reproduce on their
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own like they don't have fertility problems because while we have friends who are very
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consciously and intentionally choosing to not reproduce genetically for fear of passing on
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like serious and genuine problems they have we also personally feel as we've discussed on various
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podcasts like it would be child abuse for people like us to raise kids who are not genetically
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ours just because we're so genetically weird and we know how to raise ourselves but no one else
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really would and we wouldn't really be great for raising other people a friend of ours guy named
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maddie who has a own weird following online who wanted to become a father and he was very dedicated
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to this he's done a few like podcast interviews on it and stuff wanted to become a father but very
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explicitly using somebody else's genes uh somebody who was like a nobel prize winner or something
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like that right like i thought it was maybe going to be multiple other people yeah multiple other
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men who were extremely successful in their fields more so than he was right and at the time i found
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this just bizarre i was like why would you cuck yourself like that right and i i now understand
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it a bit better. If you think that another man is strictly better than you, why not choose those
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genes? Now, at the end of the day, I think this is a bad cultural strategy to use more broadly
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speaking, because eventually the selfish genes that don't end up wanting to do this just end
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up dominating the gene pool. You know, if it's always the father's choice, now there's a strong
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selective pressure for people to get really disgusted by the idea of raising the child of
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another person for that intrinsic feeling to win out in any culture that allows this other choice
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and i note here a culture that did actually allow this historically for people who don't know are
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the spartans in spartan culture you would if you felt another guy was just strictly better than you
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like a better warrior a better guy you would have your wife sleep with him so that you could raise
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kids that were stronger than you right like because that's what your status came from is
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the strengths of your kids. Yeah, absolutely. Although I think another reason why we're more
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moderated in that view of like, well, there's things about me that are not perfect is now
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we're in the first generation of people who can select for and against traits, even complex traits
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using polygenic risk score analysis. And we're probably within five to 10 years of even being
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able to identify traits and then change them within your own embryos. I also think there's
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a second pathway here that's going to be more relevant to a lot of our audience is, is it
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virtuous for the men who were simply not able to secure a partner or the women who were not able
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to secure a partner that they wanted to breed with and spend their lives with? Can you still
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live an ethical life in the age of declining fertility rates? I mean, dating markets are
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really broken. If you are an undesirable man, can you still live a life of meaning without
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reproducing? And I'd argue very much so. If anything, you not being able to secure a partner
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might be one of the signs that you shouldn't have burdened your children with the challenges that
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you bore because of genetics that you didn't choose, by the way. Continue. Yeah. Yeah.
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I mean, it is. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation, too, is that is that's a real
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question. And it was brought up on X and discussed at length just yesterday on March 23rd. This
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economic student named Nicholas Decker wrote that he would use if he did have children, he would have
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someone else provide the sperm for his child and not him and his tweet read basically when i have
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children i do not want them to be genetically mine instead i will have someone better than me
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be the sperm donor my reasoning here and immediately critics mocked it as either
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neo-eugenics or cuckoldry i'm gonna yeah i'm gonna go through a sub stack article i'm gonna
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not read it in its completion but i'm going to summarize and use key quotes i'm also going to
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read some of the refutations and i kind of like to go through because i think he makes a lot of
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really salient points and and more much more nuanced than what i've heard anyone else discuss
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yeah and and i'll point out here people are like well so do you literally think that you have the
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best genes on earth malcolm that you couldn't find a single male with better genes than you
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and my answer is well i mean yeah i do i i actually do he does yeah i didn't i didn't
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want to have kids with anyone and then i met you and i was like huh i i'm gonna go for this
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i could find a better like and somebody could be like malcolm how could you i'm like well you know
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I've got you know degrees have you seen me the hardest to get into institutions I've done a lot
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in terms of business philosophy in multiple fields I've created successful things I am
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happy and mentally healthy for what I want to be like why wouldn't I want to replicate that like
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I wouldn't even trade my life with somebody like Elon's because you know like there's nobody nobody
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I do this with someone nobody on earth I trade my life with that I think has a better life than
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i've been able to build for myself even though you know i can still hopefully turn reality
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fabricator into an income source doing bc outreach and stuff like that right now but yeah anyway
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continue yeah so here is his substack article it's called why my children will not be mine
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and he published it on his substack homo economicus which has over 6k subscribers and this is you know
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this is a uni student you know he's doing well he's clearly smart that's really good yeah so i
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just I want to be clear from the start like this is not some anon faceless basement dwelling
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unemployed neat incel who's miserable and depressed like this is someone who you know
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is in school on their way up young precocious and thoughtful enough to gain a following on
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sub stack okay so here we go he wrote I would like to have kids I'm quite set on this I feel
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that I would be very happy raising them. I think I would find joy and purpose in helping them grow
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and learn to do great things. I'm filled with great yearning that is not entirely in my control.
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The same yearning which I imagine must affect the salmon as they travel upriver or the goose who
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flies south for the winter. I also have a sense in which it is my duty to procreate. The world
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becomes richer as more people are in it, and having more children would therefore make the
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world better there is one thing though they will not be genetically mine it's such a great opening
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because you're like okay wow he just sounds like your classic expansionist pronatalist like
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understands the assignment person and then he's like but by the way i'm not myself genetically
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reproducing he says this does not mean that i would adopt rather i would have someone else who
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i consider to be genetically better than me be the father of the child i have thought about this a
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great deal. And not only do I think it is the right thing to do, but it is something which
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everyone should do. Here's why, which is, I'm glad he's making this, this claim. I'm like,
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everyone needs to do this. Everyone needs to do this. It's a bold claim. And I like, I like it.
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I like this. I like this guy. So here more or less summarized were his points. He wrote to start,
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I think we can agree that it is bad to harm your children. And I agree. And I think this is one of
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the most basic and simple points that you get, you know, when people choose to not have kids,
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you brought this on a lot. A lot of people suffer from very severe depression or other mental
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illnesses, and they would never want to inflict that suffering on their children. And it really
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is kind of a form of abuse to, you know, have a child that you know is going to suffer immensely
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like that. I mean, like, there are perfectly fine children whose parents, like, you know,
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beat them or whatever, you know, is subject them to horrible experiences. And that sucks. And then
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there are parents who give everything to their children and their children are still more
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miserable than those like beaten children or deprived to children because they've just been
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born with the card stacked against them so much mentally from a suffering standpoint. So, okay,
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good point. But something you can address with apologetic risk or selection.
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Actually, this is, we see this in our kids already. I am a happy, exuberant, vitalistic
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person and it's very clear in our kids that they are the same way and i am that way in a way
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children that there's literally such a thing as euphoric screaming like just
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especially the euphoric screaming before the charge like these are like little pics like
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like what they've never heard that like we don't it's not like we've watched
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movies or anything that have this like euphoric battle cry in them i don't know where it just
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like comes it's just deep in their in their dunna but yeah if you are a person inclined to perceiving
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yourself negatively i can see why you might do this yeah he also writes we also know that genes
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matter they affect life outcomes a substantial part of the variation in people's outcomes is
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due to their genes. Okay. So he's setting the groundwork here. He wrote, if you would take
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actions, which you would definitely change your children's genes for the better, then you should
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also take them for actions, which changed them for the better in expectation. He basically sees
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choosing someone else's genes over yours as just an extension of something like gene editing.
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He wrote, they would still be your own children or else is an adopted child, not your own.
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if someone is left an orphan as a baby and then brought up by a family who loves them whose child
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are they would you love them less for not being your own or suppose you learn that the person
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you believe to be your son whom you raised was in fact conceived by another man would you cast
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that child out of your life i would hope yes yes i would you you have that very severe aversion
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i would hope you do not if you are unable to do this because you would only love your own children
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if they would be conceived by you then we would we would regard that as an unadmirable thing
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not right and normal which i mean i see i see his point that like you know you bring a person
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into your life you have a very close relationship with them you you raise them like in general i
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don't i don't think we would laud your reaction which you can't control as virtuous right it's
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just something you can't control he points out i think it's virtuous i think if a child isn't yours
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you should cast it out like i i would hold my kids to the same standards as well i think it is useful
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for a society to have this standard because it prevents parasitism yeah of the social group by
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outsiders yeah i mean that's that is absolutely true just just so people know how powerful this
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feeling is in malcolm we have a very controlled process whereby we create children we we undergo
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ivf the medical controls in place just because they don't want to be sued by ivf clinics to make
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sure that they don't mix up embryos or anything or eggs and sperm etc very rigorous malcolm still
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has our kids dna tested every day like a paternity test with every kid because it's like i don't know
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i don't know he needs to know i'm not gonna risk it but paternity testing you've i mean like i get
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it but it's it's still funny it's like i it's not even like could she possibly have slept with
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someone did they make a mistake in the lab it can happen no it can't and it it has happened so i also
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get that but anyway this is where when people are like oh like i think like ben shapiro did
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paternity tests and somebody was like oh like that shows he doesn't trust his wife it's like
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no like it's just a very some people some men just have extremely strong instincts here i think
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all men should have this in a cultural group the in equal i think all men should de facto
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always paternity test their kids yeah but nicholas decker just it's clear that some men don't have
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this instinct and that's i mean it just is but here's where it gets i think more interesting
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and these are arguments that i i wish more people would make when they think about these things
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He points out that just because one person is okay phenotypically, it doesn't mean their genes are optimal for certain desired outcomes.
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I mean, what I guess maybe he was saying is like, it doesn't mean their genes are good, but I just don't think that there's anything as good or bad genes.
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He wrote further, your child's outcomes are correlated not only with direct genetic father, but also with your parents.
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Outcomes are not a first order Markov variable.
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if your family is mediocre then your child will also be likely to be mediocre even if two people's
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phenotypes are the same you should choose the one whose family phenotype is better and i agree and
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like when we have our kids date what we really want them to do is look at the family history like
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hey get out your album show me the picture of your grandmother like let me see your mom how's
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she looking so i was explicitly told by my parents to do this i'm so but no i've never i until i met
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I'd never heard that ever but you heard it from me right like I was like yeah I was told by my
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parents look at their their mom specifically the context from my dad was look at their mom to make
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sure she's still going to be attractive when she gets older but I mean that's that's a culture of
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family saying you date their family you need to look at their family you need to see if their
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family is good enough um and i very explicitly vetted you based on your family their accomplishments
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i was impressed with your dad's ability to you know pull himself up sort of starting from scratch
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very late in life and the the and your sister has done really well and i was like okay so she has
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successful people in her family obviously not at the extent of my family where like everyone's a
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billionaire super genius except for me somehow the big malcolm i think you're doing really well
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but like the things we value i i wouldn't switch with any of my siblings or cousins you know they
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they're they have done exceptionally well in terms of their careers and business but none of them have
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the public reach that i have which is what i value most so you know yeah yeah but i i just i'm glad
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he brought that up though and i'm basically already there at least a footnote which is nice
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i would like yeah i want i want your reach to go a lot further i want at least a few chapters on
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malcolm and what happened with that just a couple chapters in all of history anyway i agree i i just
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that that is a lot of what i am trying to do is just maximize your reach because you've had such
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a positive impact on everyone's life i know who you've touched and i want to see that happen on
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a more macro level it is so rare for somebody to be as unabashedly arrogant and unhumble as i am
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and yet still people say i have a positive impact on them and i think it's because i give people
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an excuse to see themselves that way like why why can't i just be as satisfied with my my life and
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accomplishments as malcolm is you can choose to be anyone can but anyway i what i think is is really
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important to note though is when people are like oh well intelligence you're just going to get
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reversion to the mean okay but if you look at the mean and the mean is is high in a family like you
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don't have to worry so much about that reversion but i mean so you're right and we can control for
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that so he's absolutely right and it very well could be that he is exceptional per his family
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and that he comes from some family of like hyper depressed you know whatever like just yeah like
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and he actually writes after this and this is another thing that you and i talk about a lot
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And again, super underdiscussed. And I feel very ambivalent about this too. And it comes to
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encouraging people to have kids is he, he apparently appears to not really like his
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family that much. He's, he wrote, you might also think that I will relate to them better as in
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like the kids that would be genetically mine. If they're more like me, I disagree with this.
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I would expect them to be like my family. I do not particularly care about my family.
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I do care quite a lot about other people, including those who I have asked.
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I would rather my children be more like them than my family.
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This is something that you and I have only really come to understand having and raising
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kids over a minimum of six years at this point.
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Your partner and their family is so much in your kids' behavior.
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And if you don't like your partner and you don't like your own family and you don't like
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their family, you're going to have a tough time. And we, we know, we know people whose kids exhibit
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the characteristics of, of partners and family members they hate. And it, they kind of hate
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their kids. Yeah. And if you don't like yourself and then you have kids, you're not going to like
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your kids, right? Or you don't like your family. Like you're going to struggle with that a little
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bit. Well, hold on. I mean, this is different. You can, you can be the way that our kids. And
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I mean, I already see this. I am not, I like my family, but I am different from my family in many
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ways. Those differences I see very starkly in my kids, perhaps even more exaggerated than the ways
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I am like my extended family. So it is not as if kids will not inherit the ways that you
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psychologically differentiate from your greater family. Yeah. But also your mom and dad are super
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in our kids yeah yeah my parents are super in the kids my parents too i see it in my parents too
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it's just that like you're gonna see it and i i'm fond of all of them and so when i see it i love
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like my late mother i love seeing her in our children because i feel closer to her what if
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all you want to do is get away from your parents and then they're like leering at you through their
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little children eyes the urban monoculture its core tactic is getting you to hate your parents
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to believe that you have some, and many conservatives fall for this, that you have some
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existential beef with people who probably tried to do their best for you and spent a lot of money
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and time caring for you. And really your parents have to go quite far. I think given the cost of
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parenting for you to have a negative emotional context to them, like your parents did an
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astronomical amount for you and so to be like like if it's not like regular smexual abuse i'm like
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you should probably i don't know what if they're a trash person you know what if they're just
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you know they're they're very trash people still generally try to be good parents
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right but and actually this was another note that i kind of wanted to think about and this is
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something that other people brought up which i'm going to go through some of the responses after
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we get through the end of this was you know there are good some people said this again i don't
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believe they're good or bad genes i think that they're you know the the situation and context
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and people change what's good or bad for every individual family changes over time changes based
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on the environment still they're like well there are good and bad genes and then there are good and
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bad parents and i absolutely agree that there are some people who are like superb genetic specimens
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right like they're exceptionally smart they come from high achieving families but like they're
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really bad parents and then there are people who are like just dumb as light posts you know but
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they're just the most patient wonderful parents actually you know this is another little kerfuffle
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that came up on x today where ala was catching heat for tweeting about like she was going through
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her late mothers because her mother died late last year and it was rough and it was sad she's
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now been going through i think some of her notes and personal personal possessions and
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it's kind of just struck by the fact that her mom just wasn't
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wasn't very intellectually engaged like ayla is amazingly intellectually engaged and she was like
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just wow my mom was i think she might have even used the term kind of dumb and then you know x is
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like ah but like she also said no i'm very fond of my mom and i loved her and she was a great mom
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and she was very loving but you know through my conversations with her as a kid and now going
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through all her notes like it's really clear there just wasn't a lot going on like she loved
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parenting she was also in terms of like maybe reversion to the meme or you should look at the
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family her grandmother she noted had actually very complex notes and thoughts and poems in
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multiple languages whereas like her mom's notes were just like beep boop i'm a human i guess
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yeah um like my parents are super your parents are very intellectually engaged as well
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maybe sometimes with dumb stuff but very intellectually engaged nonetheless
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i mean all of our parents have gone listen the the times were different but my my point is that i i
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think there's also this issue of their their being and i think maybe this could feed the argument
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being made here is that some people are really good parents but maybe they they wouldn't produce
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the the most thriving people genetically and some people are thriving themselves genetically
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but would be terrible parents and i don't know like maybe it's not the worst thing to try to
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match really really good parents with really really good genes i guess that's kind of what
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happens when you have exceptional and successful men and then just like really kind and loving
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mothers they're like may not be that that successful but then i feel like it kind of
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pulls down the average you know but what are your thoughts on that of like sort of this this
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push and pull between a good parent versus quote unquote good genes which again i have enough kids
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and you'll like one of them that's what i tell him no continue i want to hear more i want to hear
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more of this okay yeah here's actually another very interesting pivot point which me may explain
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and this is important why he doesn't have this disgust reaction to having someone else be the
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sperm donor for kids he raises he was prompted to think about this after thinking about gay
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reproductive logistics because at one point he dated a man it sounds like he's bi he says i came
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to think of this because i've dated a man before if we were to have children and to actually create
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new children not simply rearrange who has them it would be through it would have to be through a
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surrogate only one of us could be genetically the father we would have to choose who the choice was
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obvious though it should of course be him the children to come would have a better life if they
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were more like him than if they were like me and also interestingly and importantly too he's still
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open to being the genetic father if his eventual partner refuses to use a sperm donor he wrote i
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am unable to oh if i am unable to convince my partner of this scheme i would still have kids
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the old-fashioned way so he just I think he he morally believes in this argument but it's not
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like he's one it's clear he got used to this idea from it seems like a long-term relationship with
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another guy where they were talking about having kids and the other guy was just like I'm genetically
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better than you like uh no I think he came to that conclusion maybe from love like I would be
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happy to raise just perfect clones of you Malcolm I love you that much well we will get on that one
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day don't you worry oh god i i know i'm too nervous i like i love me that much too simone
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yeah i know where we are with cloning right now is is i think there's too much risk of like
00:24:34.580
sudden infant death and you know that that is like my darkest darkest fear so we're not doing
00:24:40.860
that until like you know it's 50 years of clone success i i'm i cannot be around maybe i we you
00:24:49.400
know both you and i feel like we're gonna die like in a year i i just have this this this terrible
00:24:54.020
feeling it maybe it doesn't help that like every single day like if there was some clock on the
00:24:59.220
wall of like you know hours since the last time a child told you a child told you they wish you
00:25:03.860
wouldn't die that would be like two hours for me now our kids are always like i love you and i hope
00:25:08.760
you don't die i love you and i hope you don't die but yeah i mean i yeah he he he was i think he
00:25:16.660
loved his partner but also i think he struggles with himself and with his family um yeah i mean
00:25:22.140
a lot of people are like this. The urban monoculture specializes in making people hate
00:25:26.540
their families. So the people who hate their families in modern society are incredibly large.
00:25:33.580
It's such an easy way to remove responsibility from your own faults from yourself. Oh, it wasn't
00:25:40.920
me. It was my parents' fault. And it's not even just the urban monoculture that does this. A lot
00:25:45.760
of cults like Scientology really focuses on this strategy. Oh, yeah. All the bad things that you
00:25:51.500
feel and think are because of things your parents your parents how dare they they they accepted you
00:25:57.220
with these things and now well that's it that's it for you well i mean you can also blame freud i
00:26:03.920
mean like people it's just a it's a truism for people to like well you know someone needs to
00:26:08.040
go see a therapist and figure out what happened in their childhood to make this app like there's
00:26:12.420
just this this pervasive understanding among some people who are like freud pilled even though he's
00:26:16.420
not he's not a reliable worse than freud is young yeah well i mean people who think they're not
0.95
00:26:24.060
stupid young is like the the the distilled you know he's he's the vodka of freud you know like
0.99
00:26:30.460
if all of the the obviously dumb stuff out but not the substantively dumb stuff out
1.00
00:26:36.700
oh yeah actually no yeah he's the young is the he's he's he's he's the gin he's the gin and like
0.90
00:26:44.140
freud is maybe like yeah at least freud has some spicy takes you know like yeah yeah young is is
00:26:51.200
just the swill just the like purified woo without any no with like pollutants put in that's why i
00:26:59.880
freaking hate gin it's just like so close to vodka we're almost there guys like but then let's just
00:27:05.320
throw in some i think another problem with young is that a lot of people are unaware when they're
0.98
00:27:10.780
consuming young in psychology or unaware how stupid like downstream of what they we have an
0.93
00:27:17.580
episode on jordan peterson where i point out that a lot of jordan peterson is just repackaged young
0.92
00:27:22.080
in psychology and and not good psychological frameworks to use another thinker who is very
00:27:28.060
big on young in psychology and people don't she like even wrote her thesis on it is erica
00:27:32.120
kind of commissar commissar she's the one who does a lot of like if you're not a good enough
0.56
00:27:37.560
parent like you're you need to spend your kids yeah like you know if you send your children to
00:27:42.420
daycare they'll be traumatized and etc etc it's just like not needed i i understand she's trying
00:27:49.420
her best it's just she's not an evidence-backed person and yet a lot of conservatives approach
00:27:55.820
her work as if because it feeds into their aesthetic because they're trying to encourage
00:28:00.800
people to raise intact families where there's a stay-at-home parent where they wouldn't need
00:28:04.600
daycare so they're like okay anything that feeds that and encourages parents to take that plunge
00:28:09.320
and have a homemaker is good so it's it's one of those things where it serves them well let's talk
00:28:15.460
about the reaction to this modest proposal don't have kids that are genetically yours in terms of
00:28:22.280
people immediately reacting with your kind of your same instinctual reaction richard hanania
00:28:28.660
wrote, having kids and seeing how much work it has made the decision to adopt even more
00:28:35.040
incomprehensible to me. No offense to those who do it, but I couldn't imagine putting up with all
00:28:40.380
the screaming and crying for someone else's child. In terms of a different line of reaction,
00:28:45.920
we had Michael Ebenstein post, why not have someone better than you raise them? And along
00:28:51.620
those lines, Ligament wrote. That's actually a fun take. I like that. I know. I know. Answer
00:28:58.200
this, Nicholas, if you truly love the children that aren't yours, you'll let someone that isn't
00:29:02.920
you raise them. And then Chris responded, the supply of good parents is much more restricted
00:29:08.420
than the supply of good DNA. And I do really think that that's an important point.
00:29:14.000
I actually agree with that. The point I would make here is why not just, sorry, I'm processing
00:29:21.220
here why not just if the person has superior genes to you they're going to be a superior parent to
00:29:29.980
you so why don't they have the kids no i don't that's not true i just i i hold very strongly
00:29:36.520
that a lot of people who have quote-unquote great genes and are very high achievers are actually
00:29:41.280
crap parents no what i'm saying simone and what you're missing okay definitionally you cannot
00:29:48.320
have good genes unless you are a good parent you might be perceived as having good genes
0.99
00:29:55.120
but that perception is incorrect so anyone who actually has genes that are better than yours
00:30:02.840
would have a stronger drive to be a parent than you and therefore and when i say good genes i
00:30:10.340
mean genes that are going to replicate themselves right like that are going to be successful in the
00:30:14.240
future and so if you take the genes of somebody who doesn't want kids but it's good at all of
00:30:20.920
these fields and you do want kids you might be intrinsically taking lesser quality genes
00:30:27.480
in terms of actual replication in future generations
00:30:30.620
because genes are only good if they're going to continue to self-replicate it doesn't matter to
00:30:36.560
just have one kid right you want to have a intergenerationally reproductive thing now
1.00
00:30:42.960
I guess we have to, we have to also stipulate that your definition of good parenting, which
00:30:46.940
you alluded to a little bit earlier is not what many other people would define as good
00:30:52.380
Cause your definition of good parenting is like, well, did I turn out fine?
00:30:57.020
And like, if someone had like cut off your limbs and like taken out one of your eyes,
00:31:00.820
but like, you know, you became a billionaire, you'd be like, well, they were, they were
00:31:04.980
Whereas other people would be like, I'd say the hardship helped me.
00:31:09.120
case in point that but that's my point is that like most people would be like no that wasn't a
00:31:14.020
good parent they're more deontological whereas you're at the ultimate consequentialist parent
00:31:19.720
i think it's i i i will say that if any of our fans are considering this i am open to sperm
00:31:27.600
donations because clearly we're the one case where we're already trying to have as many kids as
00:31:32.760
possible we're also open to embryo donations but continue yeah i mean we've donated we've
00:31:39.100
donated three and i i was convinced i antinatalist simone i should have children when i saw pictures
00:31:46.120
of you as a kid i was like oh my god okay yeah yeah they are they're pretty cute so yeah i i
00:31:53.740
just i i want to i want to point that out and i'm making that point independent of your definition
00:31:57.960
of parenting i think i think children deserve love and support and i know you hate that and
00:32:04.180
you're just gonna have to deal with that you're just gonna have to deal with your kids getting
00:32:07.520
loved and cared for and and kept safe and most of them i do have one other kid out there
00:32:15.280
yeah that's true but i also believe that that child is incredibly loved yeah and well i mean
00:32:22.020
my my dna is very loving like i our kids run up and randomly hug us and i don't think that's oh
00:32:27.940
dude our kids i had a problem taking them to the graveyard on on sunday because on our walk our
00:32:33.480
kids just kept running up and hugging strangers and like oh okay it's like I'm sorry and they're
00:32:39.580
like it's okay they're just so excited I think that's the normal reaction to seeing someone is
00:32:46.900
running up for real and like unfortunately like they're they're you know right at like
00:32:51.480
their heads come in right at your hips and it's just not the best thing for us to have our kids
00:32:57.300
doing that to strangers because also they sort of tackle hug anyway I don't know how to deal
00:33:03.080
with this we can't go out in public but they're so sweet and i love them so bill boost wrote
00:33:07.700
something has happened to drive a significant degree of western society into a kind of
00:33:12.960
suicidal cuckoldry it is unprecedented to my knowledge and utterly bizarre no civilization
00:33:19.140
has welcomed enemies inside its gates with open arms while denying what those enemies say
00:33:24.680
they want to do every day no civilization had men who preferred not to pass down their genes
00:33:30.720
something is very sick with our society. And I think this is associated with certain racial
1.00
00:33:38.020
undertones, the broader point minus the racial undertones about the urban monoculture, just
00:33:44.060
creating people who pathologically hate themselves when in the absence of that culture, they
00:33:49.280
wouldn't. Yeah. There was a more structured refutation on Substack actually in a comment
00:33:57.460
because Substack like has this vibrant, thoughtful community still. I thought it was going to be very
00:34:03.060
ephemeral and it really is holding strong. Thomas Pueyo, I don't know how to pronounce his last
00:34:08.080
name. I'm so sorry, but he has his own podcast or sorry, Substack that I've heard of before called
00:34:12.940
Uncharted Territories, wrote the following comment as a response to this essay by Nicholas. He wrote,
00:34:21.940
I saw this idea of your writings and I've been thinking about it ever since. I respect and
00:34:26.980
admire you and your ideas enough that i think it's very important to share how wrong i think
00:34:31.620
you are here and then he numbered out a series of points starting with one that you will
00:34:36.120
immediately find makes you bristle because we did a whole episode on how you hate this but he calls
00:34:41.540
it one not lindy this is the least lindy idea ever evolution has operated for billions of years under
00:34:48.220
the force of having your own children you are going against all these years of a proven mechanic
0.99
00:34:53.820
to see our episode on day lindy is is the dumbest concept ever it is it's just a stupid concept
0.91
00:35:00.520
it's it's wrong even the very term was miscoined it's supposed to mean that older ideas that are
0.87
00:35:08.300
shared more often break faster that was what the original concept was and the person who wrote the
00:35:13.600
book on it who is a pathological liar see our other episode on the lab that coined the term
00:35:19.420
just bad all around pseudo intellectual term but even if you're saying it's it's i pointed out this
00:35:25.580
was common in spartan society this was common in some parts of roman society this has been common
00:35:30.060
throughout human history too it was actually in i think in pre-islamic society they might even ban
0.93
00:35:35.520
this in islam because it was so common really uh so it's one of the forms of of marriage that is
00:35:41.160
banned because like 14 forms are banned or something but yeah you would which shows that
00:35:44.740
must have been practiced widely in the region yeah yeah sleep was the village chief so that
00:35:50.620
you could have a kid that was like technically the village oh oh yeah because i would have
00:35:55.240
and well and also come to think of it you had this absolutely and at least the tutor court
00:36:01.540
because you would have these these noble families essentially whoring out their daughters to be
00:36:06.540
mistresses of kings to have bastard sons to get privileges and access so oh gosh yeah actually
0.99
00:36:13.660
And these were married women whose husbands would be sent off to the countryside.
0.83
00:36:18.000
No, but I mean, this is what I expect from the type of person who'd use the term anti-landing,
00:36:21.280
is immediately draw out ideas that show he doesn't have a lot of historical knowledge.
00:36:26.140
I knew you'd come at him, but he makes other points too, so I shall proceed.
00:36:30.960
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
00:36:33.820
Usually, in your other essays, you bring it to the table.
00:36:36.580
Here, for a decision that's so important, your essay is just a series of a few arguments
00:36:43.320
what evidence no hold on this guy's a tard i'm gonna say that right now what evidence other
0.89
00:36:49.080
than genetics genetics is huge genetics is everything i know i know based on his his
00:36:55.420
argument is that genes influence character and i think i can find better genes that is not an
00:37:01.960
article that needs any more evidence unless you lack a knowledge of basic science yeah i'm glad
00:37:07.540
to respect this guy because i respect him too and i i really appreciate that he put this argument
00:37:11.740
out there because it's a very thoughtful one and i think people should be allowed to raise my kids
00:37:15.740
that's why i respect him okay oh great thanks i i actually would love for him to consider apologetic
00:37:22.540
risk or selection because i feel like maybe there's something in there that he he could maybe
00:37:25.900
feel more comfortable about if he did pgp but anyway this ultimately comes down to the partner
00:37:30.860
that he's with because i want to hear more argue i want to hear more bad arguments three extremely
00:37:35.500
high stakes evolution is operated to give you fulfillment out of having children the more you
00:37:40.220
have the more fulfillment you get if you get this idea wrong you will jeopardize one of the biggest
00:37:44.980
sources of fulfillment you could ever have now that you probably have fulfillment from raising
00:37:49.320
adopted kids even people who have had a bunch of kids it's true and in fact when you see like where
00:37:54.120
i see adopted kids the most in just like in the wild is very pronatalist families who have a lot
00:38:01.100
of kids like you'll see like eight kid family and like two of them just look different and it turns
00:38:06.740
out that they hired like or they they adopted siblings that they fostered or something like
00:38:10.000
that and it's incredibly beautiful and wonderful that they did it and they clearly did it because
00:38:14.620
they love children and love giving people good lives and love parenting and i think it's so
00:38:19.380
beautiful and while we would be terrible adoptive parents i think it's beautiful that people can
00:38:23.760
recognize when they are good adoptive parents because there are kids out there who really need
00:38:27.440
it really need it because they're also really bad parents out there i just i don't know if you saw
00:38:33.320
of like the asmongold thing recently with like a drug addicted mother who was found like chained
1.00
00:38:37.720
inside a building and like then she's like yeah i have a one-year-old daughter and i was just like
00:38:42.600
oh god and i just stopped watching the video then because just like the fact that that there are
00:38:46.540
people who are so unfit to be parents and not necessarily genetically but just through their
0.93
00:38:51.940
life circumstances that they could they could have children and possibly put them in such dangerous
00:38:55.660
terrible scenarios makes me devastated and sad and the fact that there are families willing to
00:39:00.580
adopt children out of these dangerous and terrible scenarios makes me so grateful. So anyway, I agree
00:39:04.720
with you. Okay. Right. Four, it's better for your children if they're yours. And I think the
0.51
00:39:11.720
evidence is in favor of this. He wrote one key way to optimize the happiness of your children is by
00:39:16.240
loving them more. So if you love them even a bit less, they're likely to be less happy. Your
00:39:20.980
argument against this is weak quote. I have some people more, or I, I like some people more than I
00:39:27.480
like my family, end quote, is logical because you're a young adult programmed to actually not
00:39:32.560
love your family as much so you can go and explore the world. Then you have children and they are by
00:39:38.580
far the thing you love most in the world. Your parents, siblings, aunts, et cetera, pale in
00:39:43.700
comparison. Of course, that's what evolution would do. Evidence suggests that if the children are not
00:39:49.220
genetically yours, you'll love them less. You've probably seen data on how the less related a
00:39:54.120
child's parents are, the more the child is likely to suffer from abuse, physical and sexual. Yeah,
00:40:00.320
it is. Children from two biological parents are two times less likely to get physical and educational
00:40:04.840
neglect and are four times less likely to get emotional neglect. Fourth natural incident study
00:40:10.420
of child abuse and neglect, NIS 4. I think it is chart 5-3. There was a better one, but I can't
00:40:16.400
find it. You won't abuse your children, I assume, but this is very strong evidence that you'll like
00:40:21.420
them less if they're not biologically yours so they'll be less happy and that is i think a valid
1.00
00:40:27.100
point but i also think it's less applicable to him yeah and you'll you'll notice this in your
00:40:32.220
kids are just you like they are you they'll have all your quirks they have all of your personality
00:40:37.220
but also if you hate you don't you think that i mean i think that there are some parents who are
00:40:41.660
terrible cruel parents toward their children because they see what they hate in themselves
00:40:46.980
in their children and then lash out at it yeah no no no so it's a double-edged sword you know
00:40:52.500
i i think that both of them have valid points i think no but i think it is no i don't think
00:40:57.860
both of them have valid points no i think the first one has valid points stick one has no
00:41:01.020
valid points arguments are are are fake and gay as they say they are not nicholas go malcolm go i
0.83
00:41:07.560
love it i love it no look if you i'm team nicholas too don't worry i i think the biggest accurate
00:41:13.920
point he makes is that at this stage of this person's life their perception of their family
00:41:21.520
and their ancestors is biologically weighted against it to try to get them to leave the nest
00:41:27.980
because yeah you're in rebellion phase like of course you're gonna not like your family because
00:41:32.380
that's what you're supposed to be feeling right now and you've been raised in a society that
00:41:36.200
tells you it's virtuous to not be proud of your own ancestry and people so you have that secondary
00:41:42.440
issue as well i mean who's the bet that this person who he says he likes more than himself
00:41:46.980
is a different race right like he might be one of these you know self-hating white people who sees
0.89
00:41:52.180
a non-white person and is just like well my genes as a whatever are not good yeah like my
0.95
00:41:59.060
inherent white guilt something something i don't think so and i say this because
00:42:03.640
i don't know why but he follows us on nicholas the one who posted the the sub stack not not the
00:42:10.420
refutation the actual argument follows us on x and maybe it's a hate follow it could be but like
00:42:15.340
typically if someone follows us on x they're not that type of person yeah they're not that cucked
00:42:20.280
yeah because we're good at breaking the cuck storm like people start to watch us out of hatred they're
00:42:24.840
like oh i've heard that you guys are evil and then they watch and they go oh oh this makes a lot of
00:42:29.220
sense i have no idea i can't model all the people i'm just the people are cool so i like them
00:42:35.840
Anyway, let's keep going through his arguments though.
00:42:46.860
But the variance is so high in the children you get
00:42:51.840
Your child is worse off with somebody else's child.
0.85
00:43:01.420
I'm going to guess it's closer to 50% than 100%.
1.00
00:43:04.580
that's the stupidest argument i've ever heard i mean but there's still variants the odds are
0.95
00:43:10.760
still higher that's true matter that there's no guarantee the point is the odds what
1.00
00:43:17.500
this is a bit like a jehovah's witness telling somebody well can you guarantee the blood
00:43:24.540
transfusion will save my child and you're like well i mean the odds are it will save your child
00:43:30.380
and they're like ah if you can't guarantee it then how dare you suggest i use it it's like well
0.98
00:43:37.040
what the like how how can a person like a sentient human being be this stupid also if he selected
0.83
00:43:43.640
someone else's genes and did polygenic risk or selection you can also control for that more
0.99
00:43:48.540
yeah this is that no bad argument continue next high bar you are already quite intelligent and
00:43:54.420
bright odds are your gene quality is quite good already some examples of that include your essays
00:43:59.620
your thinking is good your precociousness your ability to come up with many new ideas including
00:44:03.620
this one your success at finding a fitting community and your ability to communicate
00:44:08.320
complex ideas well trying to further improve the pool has dramatically less potential impact than
00:44:13.820
if other people did it much less impact than you think it would i mean i agree that nicholas seems
00:44:19.340
to be like a pretty i'd i'd push back here i'd say that as somebody who is not nicholas you can
00:44:28.880
not easily model or your your modeling of nicholas's self-perception is intrinsically less
00:44:34.880
than nicholas's own modeling of his self-perception yeah you know yourself best that is absolutely
00:44:40.360
true yeah i mean he knows nicholas knows he wouldn't like raising a kid with his personality
00:44:45.840
quirks then it's insane by the way all these things that i even thought were just like
00:44:51.300
behavioral things i picked up from nurture turned out to be nature like weird annoying stuff i do
00:44:57.960
with my hands like i hold stuff funny to like not touch it with like the pads of my fingers but
00:45:02.940
instead like that ends it like like a retard one of our kids does it and he never saw me do it
0.92
00:45:08.140
because i try to hide it i'm very ashamed of it and i'm like oh god that was genetic like it's a
00:45:12.000
sensory issue so just yeah the the the profundity with which things that you might hate about
00:45:17.160
yourself will show up in your kids is a valid it's valid it's very valid i still love toasty i love
00:45:22.760
him so much he flip side of that is is when you see this in your kids and maybe you hated it in
00:45:29.160
yourself for the first time because of this overwhelming love you have for them you will
00:45:35.320
maybe for the first time give yourself grace and that has been really transformative for me in
00:45:40.280
terms of self-acceptance as someone who deeply hates themselves so counterpoint for nick there
00:45:45.060
which okay is important okay let's go to another point multi-dimensionality of a better parent
00:45:52.820
How are you going to measure if somebody else is a better parent than you?
00:45:58.340
For example, many high IQ people are worse than you at communication or at being able
00:46:07.860
Will you measure the candidates across all the dimensions of good gene quality that exist?
00:46:13.700
Are you then going to do a weighted average of their quality score?
00:46:17.600
How are you sure you'll take into account all the dimensions that matter?
00:46:22.000
that you can properly measure the relative importance of each factor. I believe you would
00:46:27.320
have no reliable way to tell whether somebody is actually better than you. So your confidence that
00:46:32.720
you can get somebody better than you to father your children is very low. So I disagree because
00:46:38.860
like if we had to choose between cloning me or cloning you, both you and I would decide it's
00:46:44.100
clearly going to be you, Malcolm. And I think he- Depends on how many people. If I had to build an
00:46:50.640
entire society i would want them to be simones if i had to add a few more exceptional people to our
00:46:55.820
society i would choose malcolm yeah well yeah it's like the the farmer versus the king like you need
00:47:00.480
both but if we could only clone one child and we knew that they wouldn't die in infancy then we
00:47:05.440
would clone you and and i think this is what nicholas experienced with his partner too like
00:47:09.580
when he just thought intuitively about like well if we decided to have a kid together well obviously
0.50
00:47:13.660
we'd use his sperm like he didn't need to think about it and i think it's enough to allow someone's
00:47:17.980
intuition to be like, nah, we know. I have no qualms about the fact that I would choose you,
0.97
00:47:24.680
Malcolm. I have no qualms about that either. I would think it would be very strange.
00:47:28.160
That's the thing. Yeah. I think that Thomas Pueyo is overthinking this. Okay. Eight,
00:47:32.860
pool diversity. Along these lines, I don't think all genetic diversity is equally valuable,
00:47:38.100
but some is. By choosing somebody else, you'll be weighing some factors as more important than
00:47:42.420
others. But how do you know those factors you weigh are really less important? Maybe in the
00:47:47.520
future they become more important like a parent optimizing their children in stem in a world where
00:47:51.520
ai solves science but not taste there is value in genetic and idea diversity pool your diversity
00:47:57.620
is unlikely to be the type we want to waste only i don't know only if this argument only works if
00:48:03.880
tons of people are doing what he's suggesting here yeah it's just a unique this is a this is
00:48:10.180
a completely invalid argument continue yeah nine adverse selection if you are able to find a person
00:48:16.580
that looks so good on paper and that would accept to be the father of your children this person
00:48:21.280
would potentially show two huge flaws that make him worse than you one this person would be
00:48:26.460
substantially less humble and more arrogant than you he would think he's strictly better than you
00:48:31.180
across all the dimensions that matter he preemptively insulted no yeah this is not bad i feel
00:48:37.940
this way about my parents all the time yeah i am strictly better than them in every dimension
00:48:42.700
and they treat me the same way like this is actually one of the things that other people
00:48:47.600
have noted about my relationship with especially my dad that they see is very odd like my stepmother
00:48:53.580
has noted this before that like he genuinely seems to like respect and even fear my opinion
00:49:00.980
and i appreciate that he raised me knowing that i could be better than authority figures in my life
00:49:08.120
just like intuitively by never demanding that like i am the head of this household and everybody
00:49:14.800
in the household knows less than me you know two to to continue with thomas pollo's point
00:49:22.640
two the person is much less honest than you as he's faking his markers of market value
00:49:28.380
to he wrote then might want to sear your children but i think he meant to write that might want to
00:49:33.080
sire your children this is like groucho saying he wouldn't want to join a club that accepts him as
1.00
00:49:37.900
a member now you and i in in a member of paid subscribers only episode interviewed a woman who
00:49:44.640
who went through the process of getting a known sperm donor through a facebook group largely
00:49:51.580
because in many cases working through a sperm bank involves working with pathological liar sperm
00:49:57.100
because you actually get accepted by a sperm bank you kind of have to like if you're like well my
0.93
00:50:01.660
grandmother died once they're like she died like of what okay you're out you know like if you're
00:50:07.360
if you're honest in in any way as a kid you're out yeah yeah it's it's like are you kidding me
00:50:14.300
it's so you are i i totally get that he's right about that but this is not what nicholas is
00:50:20.680
describing nicholas is describing what's insinuated in his sub stack essays that he would
00:50:25.360
choose like a known friend you know someone he is very close with who he's lived around who he
00:50:29.940
understands behaviorally very well like it's a known donor situation or like even possibly a
00:50:36.540
a gay male partner who he like literally is living his entire life with so anyway 10 danger of
1.00
00:50:42.460
subconscious virtue signaling what it might be that your brain is tricking you to say this because
00:50:48.420
it sounds like the most ea thing you can say yes yes i agree with the only good argument okay this
00:50:55.120
is very yes because we talked about in another episode this this new preponderance of young men
00:51:00.320
in the uk just donating their kidneys to strangers and i think this is like this hyper stimuli of like
00:51:05.360
I'm an effective altruist. Take my organs. It's just horrible. This is the most common in young
00:51:11.300
adults, as you probably know, and becomes much less true in other settings. Example,
00:51:16.180
different peer group, different age, different brain chemistry. To be clear, I don't think you're
00:51:21.360
being facetious. I think you believe what you say, but this sounds like the type of situation
00:51:26.580
your brain might have an incentive to lie to you in a way you don't realize. Okay, so you agree
00:51:31.560
with that point i agree with that point it is a genuine risk and it's what's great is that this
00:51:35.700
is not an imminent thing and because he put that idea out there because he tweeted this and he put
00:51:41.280
this on substack he is able to consider people's various arguments and actually think deeply about
00:51:46.380
this leading up to him eventually maybe making this decision with a partner and i love that
00:51:50.700
and this is why i wish people had put their hot takes online everyone's so afraid of being
00:51:54.800
criticized and the fact that this is a young man and that he's not afraid of putting out ideas that
00:51:59.200
might get criticized and might get ridiculed and even called like a cuckold is just so great can't
00:52:04.460
people do that like can't we have just discourse about ideas for once without being shamed yeah
00:52:10.260
so i i need to talk about why intergenerationally this as a cultural strategy is very bad and i and
00:52:17.100
i mentioned at the beginning but for people who don't quite grok what i am saying here suppose
00:52:21.680
you have a society where it is normal for every male to either decide to sire another male's kids
00:52:27.960
who they think is better than them or decide that they have the best genetic quality of among the
00:52:32.440
partners they can get and they're going to sire their own kids okay now within some people of
00:52:36.980
this society there is a visceral disgust at the idea of raising somebody else's kids now you have
00:52:42.440
created a extremely strong selective pressure for that visceral disgust if this is ever normalized
00:52:49.680
to become very common because every male who gets selected who has this now refuses to do it for
00:52:56.580
their own kids and this is why you just simply shouldn't do this i've actually seen this in the
00:53:02.720
children of many like i've met multiple pronatalists people who want to have lots of kids
00:53:08.500
who are born from like mass sperm donors um like the idea that this is a heritable thing this i
00:53:20.380
want to have just tons of kids is is pretty borne out in the evidence and so you you're you're
00:53:25.760
actually creating a social construct that can't survive in the long run what you really mean from
00:53:31.800
kids like the most valuable trait to pass on to the next generation is wanting to be a father
00:53:37.220
while still being high income and high intelligence if you are those things which it appears you are
00:53:42.580
you want to be a father and you are high intellect that is an extremely rare genetic phenomenon in
00:53:49.580
the current population. Much rarer than phenomenon associated with just general
00:53:55.580
intelligence or career success or anything like that. As such, that's what I think he's
00:54:02.840
fundamentally missing in all of this. Well, maybe this kind of dovetails with Puyo's
00:54:07.200
last point titled 11 additional points. There are two. The only way in which I think this could
00:54:15.220
makes sense if is if your essay is geared towards convincing normies to do this with your gene pool
00:54:21.560
in which case you'd be maximizing your offspring although making each less happy because they're
00:54:26.800
not hanging out with their biological father pretty machiavellian i don't think this is true
00:54:31.480
b timing by the time you have to make this decision science might be good enough that you
00:54:35.880
can edit your future child's genome optimizing iq and whatever other measure of quality you want
00:54:41.300
which is very true takeaways your idea sounds laudable but it's not lindy oh malcolm's already
00:54:47.500
shaking with rage it doesn't have enough evidence it is unlikely to be actionable you'd likely make
00:54:53.220
you and your children both biological and non-biological less happy and fulfilled and it
00:54:57.860
would be optimizing for the wrong reasons the upside is lower than you think the downside is
00:55:01.880
higher than you think and there are high probabilities of this going awry and you're
00:55:05.900
possibly lying to yourself so he was just categorically against this but i think where
00:55:09.740
you're coming out of this is like hey people are capable of making their own judgments of what's
00:55:14.380
best maybe nicholas is is doing what's best for him but but generally speaking i think it's a bad
00:55:19.780
idea and generally speaking i think it's a bad idea because it's not an intergenerationally stable
00:55:24.240
idea and he is massively underestimating the rareness of wanting to be a father and being
00:55:33.740
intellectually engaged yeah he's already showing so many signs of like you should be having all
00:55:38.900
and just that opening paragraph of him being like i really want to have kids i want to raise kids
00:55:43.900
like i i feel this deep desire to do it it's like oh my god yeah like this is the sign for somebody
00:55:51.080
who doesn't have that desire yeah then you are going to create children who are not useful to
00:55:57.420
the next generation um as to what's causing this i think we're actually learning from the beginning
00:56:03.420
because this came from a gay partner and deciding which of them would have kids this may also have
00:56:07.980
an element of a genuine sexual fantasy tied to it and i would not risk your lifetime which you're
00:56:17.060
gonna have to spend with this other person as part of an arousal pathway if if that is polluting your
00:56:23.360
decision you and i even say this for spouses right so like yeah people on x were ridiculing
00:56:29.040
but what you're saying is like look i don't care if that's what it is but don't do stuff because
00:56:33.500
it feels good yeah i say this was marriage i'm like don't marry someone because the sex is good
00:56:38.440
right like sex arousal compatibility this is of all the differences i have with ayla the biggest
00:56:43.580
one i have for her like partner survey it's a bunch of things to see if they're compatible with
0.88
00:56:47.420
her in terms of her sexual proclivities and i'm like this is nothing to do with who you marry
00:56:53.540
marriage is a business contract yeah yeah like sexual proclivities you what that that has once
1.00
00:56:59.800
Once you got six kids, you're not going to care how dommy they are.
0.99
00:57:07.080
So I don't, I find that to be, by the way, people are wondering why I think anti-Lindy
0.64
00:57:11.140
is as a concept is so stupid is what anti-Lindy does is it takes something that is obviously
0.91
00:57:17.940
true that in an environment, e.g. the historic environment of, let's say like the middle
0.99
00:57:23.840
ages or the 1950s or whatever where not much is changing entities or ideas or concepts or things
00:57:32.080
that have out-competed other things in the past was in this stable environment they are likely to
00:57:37.760
out-compete other things in the future and it does this by looking at the historical record
00:57:41.880
but if you look at the modern record we have not seen this trend and that is because we are no
00:57:48.840
longer in a stable environment so i can't trust the fact that an idea outcompeted something in
00:57:54.900
the 1950s to measure or predict whether or not it's going to out predict something in 2030 when
00:58:01.780
we have whatever ai economy we have then okay i know i know kind of arguments people have made
00:58:06.420
to that is go to a walmart most of the things that are on the shelves have probably been there
00:58:10.400
for five plus years i wish i had time to respond to this here but the point of the argument i always
00:58:14.940
make on this is if a society is stable, then things will stay the same. So for the past five
00:58:24.780
years or so, things have been about stable in regards to food consumption. So things that
00:58:30.500
were winning five years ago continue to win today. But if you go to a Walmart, almost nothing
00:58:38.640
on the shelves would have existed in its same form 50 years ago so that's the point i'm making
00:58:45.960
is it's not that uh you know everything will necessarily be there because it wasn't there
00:58:51.660
two years three years ago it's it was in an existing environmental context i don't have
00:58:56.940
time for this i'm really glad we had this conversation because i thought it was a really
00:58:59.940
great argument he put out there i really like his thought-provoking points so thanks for talking
00:59:05.580
about them with me i love you today simone i have a spectacular day and what are we doing for dinner
00:59:11.300
the the chili with some bottle like in hoisin sauce and that was pretty good shishito peppers
00:59:17.260
do you want me to add like msg to it tonight would you like me to serve it like sloppy joes on hawaiian
00:59:22.460
buns no you can serve it on rice but i'm gonna bring my chips down for it too because i might
00:59:26.920
want some on chips oh smart i like that okay i love you bye bye so where are you
01:00:03.660
Sometimes, when these are not here, I won't fall, and sometimes, when these are here, I will not fall.