Based Camp - August 29, 2023


Debate： Are Progressives Genocidal Maniacs Who Hate Diversity？


Episode Stats

Length

42 minutes

Words per Minute

177.20502

Word Count

7,565

Sentence Count

450

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

35


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 you've got to understand how literally insane it sounds to be a cultural group that says diversity
00:00:07.000 is a thing of value and everyone's actually the same. What they mean by diversity, and this is
00:00:15.100 very important, is that we are open to recruiting people into our cultural group from any other
00:00:23.820 cultural group. They don't really value diversity. What they value is diversity in victims.
00:00:29.140 Oh, I don't know. See, yeah, I was going to say, I think the difference here is the role that
00:00:34.220 intersectionality plays in progressive culture. But also, I think that that's what we're missing
00:00:39.580 is cultural outsiders, is that diversity is not diversity, it's intersectionality.
00:00:45.020 It is victimhood status. And that's one view. And progressive culture is not a monolith.
00:00:51.220 It is a monolith. I'm sorry, in what way is it not a monolith? Explain.
00:00:54.780 Well, because I do think that there are many people who identify as progressives who don't
00:00:58.680 agree with every element of it. Yeah, but you're just on the outside. This is what your cultural
00:01:04.960 group actually believes at the highest levels. And this is what your cultural group will try to
00:01:10.280 enforce on the surrounding cultural groups, regardless of whether or not it's something
00:01:14.320 that you personally identify with. And I think that that's, that's really, this is like you go to a
00:01:20.220 Nazi. And he's like, well, I'm not anti-Semitic. Malcolm, you're not being fair. Why are you so
00:01:26.580 unwilling? Anyway. Why am I so unwilling to morally compromise? If you're okay with a cultural
00:01:33.640 group that's out there that's using our school system to systematically erase everyone who thinks
00:01:38.100 differently than them. And if it was literally any group other than yours doing that, you'd be like,
00:01:43.540 oh, this is like the most evil thing anyone can do. I'd really, you know, encourage some self
00:01:50.400 reflection. Your arguments and your wording are not going to engage people. Would you like to know
00:01:54.440 more? The progressive party, like it talks about diversity a lot. Like it says diversity is
00:02:02.500 important. And yet in, in two ways, it seems to have a systemic hatred and denial of diversity.
00:02:12.980 So way number one is it says different groups are not actually different. Different cultural groups
00:02:19.760 are different. Different ethnic groups aren't different, different. Nobody's different.
00:02:24.160 Everyone's actually exactly the same. And it's like, there's not even, you know,
00:02:29.160 men and women are exactly the same. But, but it's also super important that you respect people
00:02:36.220 when they decide that they're a different gender. Why would any of this matter if we're all exactly
00:02:40.760 the same? This is so interesting. And it's such an incongruous part of this sort of progressive
00:02:46.980 world perspective, which is, I don't know. It's very difficult for me to, to like really grok
00:02:58.540 because it's so astronomically stupid.
00:03:03.820 Well, I think that it's interesting because progressivism in general, as it exists today,
00:03:08.680 is full of paradoxes. And it's not just about diversity. It's also about freedom. Like I grew up
00:03:15.200 thinking, you know, and I'm living in a very progressive culture that progressivism was all
00:03:20.060 about freedom, freedom to choose what partner you wanted, freedom to choose how you dressed,
00:03:24.660 what you said, how you acted, who you could become, you know, you can be anyone you want,
00:03:29.480 any gender you want, anything, anything, whatever, you know, you are free to choose.
00:03:33.300 And what I find to be really interesting is the extent to which it's actually quite the opposite
00:03:38.540 there. Like it's actually pretty coercive and that no, actually you can't, you can't do things
00:03:44.600 that offend these groups. You can't actually, I was just listening to a podcast covering an element
00:03:50.180 of the furry community and the furry community was talking about how it's super, super not okay
00:03:55.380 to watch. I think what they referred to as, as feral erotic material, we're going to say,
00:04:00.780 you know, like, I guess video footage or illustrations of animals banging each other
00:04:05.000 because that's, you know, coercive, which, which is weird because if you're a furry, you might be like
00:04:09.620 more likely to be turned on by something like that.
00:04:11.640 Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So I will word this because I think that our viewers may not
00:04:15.400 understand what you just said. It's really interesting, but it immediately makes sense to me.
00:04:19.420 What they're saying is that in the furry community, these are people who like to dress up as animals
00:04:25.680 and hit on other people, dress up like animals. They think it's not a sexual thing.
00:04:29.340 And there's a subset, of course, that also is species dysmorphic, meaning that they actually
00:04:33.820 feel like they're really a fox or they really-
00:04:37.060 Or like a dog, right? Yeah.
00:04:38.180 Yes. Yes. So that's a subset, a small subset, but yeah, anyway.
00:04:40.900 It's considered immoral to watch videos of the animal that you identify with having sex with that
00:04:50.000 same animal. But the reason it's considered immoral, this is what's fascinating. The reason
00:04:57.600 it's considered immoral is because there wasn't consent. There wasn't consent when those two
00:05:02.940 animals decided to have sex with each other. It's not because you're watching an animal have sex.
00:05:06.900 That's not what they find disgusting. It's because there wasn't consent when the animals decided to
00:05:12.480 have sex. That's fascinating. Continue.
00:05:15.480 I guess. Yeah. I guess that's the issue at hand. But yeah, I just find it so interesting that I would
00:05:20.080 think that the furry community, for example, that to me is like a really big bastion of progressivism
00:05:25.140 in general, right? Like a very, very small proportion of the community identifies as right,
00:05:29.780 let alone hard right, right? This is supposed to be very-
00:05:32.900 Yeah. I was in a blocked and reported podcast. I was just listening to you about that. They talked
00:05:39.300 about a survey in that space. And so it's also, it's one of those things where you have to be
00:05:44.760 really comfortable with being seen as weird to dress up in an anthropomorphized costume and dance
00:05:50.640 around and do all that stuff, right? So it's just so interesting to me that in a community like that,
00:05:54.800 where you would think that it is like the epitome of being accepting, of accepting differences,
00:05:59.140 of accepting deviance from what is normative. And most people just think that's pretty weird.
00:06:05.900 And in fact, I was listening to another podcast called Ruthless, which is more like a conservative
00:06:11.320 political podcast. And they were basically just saying, if it's a furry, arrest them immediately,
00:06:14.940 charge them, book them. So this is clearly something that's not accepted. And yet, and yet this
00:06:19.280 community is still shaming people for being aroused by things that frankly, it's not a reflection of
00:06:25.620 their morals. It's not a reflection of, and there are people, there are TikToks that were shared in
00:06:28.920 this podcast of people basically saying, you know, you either need to get help or you need to be
00:06:33.520 like eliminated, like basically die. And that's, you know, people in this kind of community can say
00:06:37.600 that. I think that's just, it really exemplifies the many paradoxes. So we should also talk about
00:06:42.580 why conservatives think it's so disgusting to have sex with animals, because this is a really
00:06:46.780 interesting thing to me. The reason why conservatives, so when we're talking about conservatives,
00:06:51.900 what are conservatives as we define them? They're people who want their cultural group to
00:06:55.540 survive intergenerationally and into the future. And most of them come from some form of traditional
00:06:59.840 cultural group. Most of the traditional cultural groups that have been successful are the ones that
00:07:04.120 sort of outbred their, their nearby rivals. And one of the ways they've done this is by shaming sex
00:07:11.980 with animals. This was not an animal welfare thing. You know, if you're talking to somebody 2000 years
00:07:17.980 ago, and they're like, don't the person who has sex with a sheep is disgusting. They're also
00:07:22.460 slaughtering the sheep. So, you know, it's not like the worst thing you're going to do.
00:07:26.000 Yeah, no, they didn't evolve this cultural belief because they cared about the sheep.
00:07:29.840 They evolved this cultural belief because people who had sex with sheep, you know, put less time into
00:07:35.420 their partners, finding a partner. They got more diseases. They introduced more diseases to the
00:07:40.460 community. It was, it was completely about fertility and health. And in a way that is why it was in
00:07:48.840 today's culture, if you are trying to determine what should we see as like a cultural group,
00:07:53.900 what should we see as, as disgusting as having sex with a sheep, what we should see is that, you know,
00:08:00.100 we apply the same evolutionary pressures is people who treat pets like their kids. If somebody says,
00:08:08.580 this is my child's dog, you know, what they are saying is I am using this dog to masturbate my
00:08:14.820 instinct to have kids and through that lowering my fertility rate. And, and I guess what I'm saying
00:08:20.000 is in the future, you know, assuming genetic technology didn't exist, which sort of changes
00:08:24.820 all the rules of the game, but if genetic technology didn't exist within 500 years, we would see claiming
00:08:31.500 that a dog or a cat is your child in any context is, is literally as disgusting and as socially
00:08:39.840 isolatable as having sex with a dog or a cat. But let's go back to diversity. So it does blow my
00:08:48.240 mind because like I, I did, you know, it, it's so interesting that, that beneath, and you've,
00:08:54.040 you've said this many times, right? Like when you look at progressive groups of all the different
00:08:58.580 colors of the rainbow, you know, Jewish progressive groups and Christian and Muslim and all the other
00:09:03.080 progressive groups, they basically all hold the same general values. Everyone goes to heaven and
00:09:07.620 everything's going to be okay. You know, whatever you like all these sorts of things there, there just
00:09:11.020 isn't a lot of difference. And then when you look at conservative cultures, there is a lot of
00:09:14.200 diversity. And like, how could that possibly be when supposedly diversity is a value of progressive?
00:09:19.540 I think that the secret here is that it never was that progressive was about diversity.
00:09:23.960 What they mean by diversity, and this is very important is that we are open to recruiting people
00:09:31.580 into our cultural groups from any other cultural groups.
00:09:35.900 Anyone? Oh, so that's interesting. And that's, so that's really a sign of, if we're using terminology
00:09:40.580 from the Pragmatist Guide to Crafting Religion, it is a dominating culture, right? So its goal
00:09:45.980 is that, you know, the world isn't okay until everyone is saved. We have to save and we have to convert
00:09:52.380 everyone. So until, you know, basically the world is a caliphate of our religion.
00:09:56.620 Yeah, yeah. We don't care if you're gay or straight or black or white or Jewish or Muslim. You can join us.
00:10:04.860 Just like us.
00:10:06.220 Being super straight is not okay in all progressive circles, but sure.
00:10:10.320 We don't care where you're starting.
00:10:11.680 Interesting idea there, right? So super straight is something that was like a fad online, I think for a bit,
00:10:18.360 which was basically saying, I am only attracted to people who were born the gender that I am attracted to.
00:10:24.380 I am not attracted to trans people. And yeah, I think again, they don't really mean that you can
00:10:33.380 have any sexuality you want to have when, when, when they're telling you what they mean is that you
00:10:38.640 need to see sexuality in the way they see sexuality, which they see as consistent with maximum choice
00:10:45.580 around sexuality.
00:10:46.500 More importantly, what you're saying is, is it doesn't, they want everyone to convert. It doesn't
00:10:51.340 matter who you are, where you're starting from, but you do need to convert and you do need to hold
00:10:55.300 our values. So it may not matter if you start off as super straight, as long as you end up
00:11:00.780 like part of the, as long as you eventually, it doesn't matter where you started, as long as you
00:11:06.400 end up submissive to their cultural group.
00:11:09.040 But I think, yeah, that's that. I think that really helps to explain it to me. Cause I did feel
00:11:12.180 confused as to like why progressive culture could be so homogenous and really essentially anti-diversity
00:11:19.160 because they're anti any culture that doesn't hold their values. Right. They feel like they
00:11:23.240 need to be reformed. They need to be saved, but you're right. It's, it's more just that everyone
00:11:27.260 needs to join, which kind of implies, well, I guess, yeah, now that I compare it to all the
00:11:31.440 other dominating cultures that also believe everyone should be converted. It's, it's no different.
00:11:36.640 They also think that those people like in, let's say, you know, a dominating culture that thinks
00:11:41.100 that homosexuality is bad. Right. So then, you know, it's, it's, you can, of course, gay people
00:11:46.120 should join and they should also turn straight. It's that simple or we'll throw you off a building,
00:11:50.920 but whatever. Right. And so, yeah. And actually that I look at it that way,
00:11:54.300 or they just, it's just like a very conservative talking about some Muslim groups. They would
00:12:01.480 accept gay people as well, but they would say, but you need to undergo fourth gender conversion.
00:12:05.380 Yeah. Yeah. But I guess the point here that we're making is this is something that, that
00:12:11.020 progressives really seem to misunderstand about conservative groups. If they have many ways of dealing
00:12:16.100 with gender, sexuality, stuff like that. Right. If you're same sex attracted people within one
00:12:20.560 conservative cultural group, they may say, well, you should sublimate that. Within another
00:12:24.760 cultural group, they may say, oh, we'll put you in a priesthood, like a celibate priesthood
00:12:28.460 class. I was just talking about Catholics right there. But then the Muslim cultural group,
00:12:32.020 they'll say, oh, well, you should undergo gender conversion. Yeah. Yeah. There's lots of ways
00:12:38.340 that people, it's not that these groups deny that same sex attracted people exist. There's just
00:12:43.400 different cultural solutions to it. We bring up this point so frequently for two core reasons.
00:12:49.020 One is that we actually agree, like our cultural group, the one that Simone and I live within,
00:12:55.620 actually agrees that the progressive solution to same sex attracted people, to let them marry and
00:13:03.040 date people of the same gender, is the solution that we practice, that we would practice for our
00:13:09.460 kids. But just because we believe that doesn't mean that we have the right to try to erase the
00:13:15.460 perspectives of other cultures. And when you as a progressive or someone like me goes into these
00:13:23.160 other cultures and I say, well, your solutions are less efficient, it ends up hurting people.
00:13:28.640 You know, how is that any different than going out and telling, you know, a Jewish person,
00:13:33.480 you can't circumcise your kids? You know, that, that, that, that, that hurts the kids and that
00:13:40.220 therefore that is child abuse and you shouldn't be allowed to do that. And, you know, we will use
00:13:44.620 the government to prevent you from doing this, which is actually something that some progressive
00:13:48.300 groups are doing right now. It's very easy to justify if you can say, oh, this group is hurting
00:13:54.460 its, its citizens, right? By taking this cultural perspective, then therefore we have the right
00:14:00.440 to stamp that out. The problem is, is that if any of these other cultural groups was in power right
00:14:06.680 now, you know, whether it's today would be considered a conservative Christian group or
00:14:09.700 conservative Jewish group or conservative any group, right? They would say that you were hurting
00:14:14.100 people through like the trans surgeries or through even gay marriages that they would say that that
00:14:20.000 like morally hurts people, right? So you can't just say I get to stamp this out because it hurts
00:14:25.720 people, right? Because anyone can use that justification. Evil people have always used that
00:14:31.940 justification. The ethical way to allow situations like this to resolve that doesn't allow your own
00:14:38.520 cultural bias to justify genocide against another cultural group or genocide of a particular cultural
00:14:44.820 practice is to say we will create an environment in which kids who grow up within that cultural group
00:14:50.520 can leave that cultural group or choose not to carry on those practices if they don't like them
00:14:56.580 or don't think they're efficacious. So let's go back to the Jewish example. If a kid who was circumcised
00:15:01.160 ends up believing that circumcision was bad and hurt them, then they won't do that to their own kids.
00:15:07.580 Or they might even decide that they have so much animosity towards the cultural group that allowed
00:15:12.440 them to happen to them, the Jewish cultural group, that they just leave that cultural group.
00:15:16.500 However, it's important to note here that even if the plurality of people from a cultural group end
00:15:23.660 up saying, okay, I'm not going to end up practicing circumcision anymore because that hurt me. If it
00:15:28.100 turns out that that has perfect overlap with the portion of the group that is unable to motivate
00:15:33.940 reproduction within themselves, it's unable to say, okay, I'm going to go out there and have kids
00:15:38.400 and raise them within this new cultural context I'm creating. Well, I think you've shown that thing
00:15:45.220 that we think was evil or bad in some way must have had some utility because it was what enabled the
00:15:53.160 intergenerational transfer of a cultural system and in some way was tied to whatever led some people
00:16:00.120 of that cultural group to make the enormous investment, which is child rearing at above
00:16:06.620 reproductive rate. You know, raising four or five kids is an enormous financial and emotional burden.
00:16:14.560 And it may turn out that somehow these practices, which some people in the cultural group felt hurt
00:16:20.780 them, were actually really key in motivating that. So there is a way of dealing with this outside of
00:16:27.280 going out and stamping out cultural groups. It's just to create an environment in which kids are free
00:16:31.660 to leave those cultural groups. And the second point that we're really trying to make here is
00:16:35.660 there is this perspective that there is a progressive view on same-sex attracted people.
00:16:40.480 And then there's this homogenous conservative view, which isn't true. Progressives are just one of like
00:16:46.560 a bunch of different ways that cultural groups relate to same-sex attracted individuals. And we believe
00:16:53.020 those individuals should be protected whatever cultural solution they choose for themselves,
00:16:57.580 once they're no longer relying on their parents for financial support. However, right now, if we look
00:17:04.360 at the way things are being taught within our education system or within popular media, it's very
00:17:10.100 clear that it is taught this is the right way to be a same-sex attracted individual. And all of these
00:17:16.720 other panoply of different cultural ways of relating to same-sex attracted individuals that conservative
00:17:22.040 people have is the evil way of relating to this and the wrong way of relating to this. And it is for
00:17:26.880 this reason, and primarily for this reason, that we are justified in wiping out these cultural
00:17:32.760 groups. That's why we keep coming back to sexuality, because it's the core thing that progressives use
00:17:36.380 to justify their superiority to other cultural groups, because they believe that it's just such
00:17:42.240 a superior solution, the one that they have, and that it justifies them utilizing things like the
00:17:48.360 educational system to attempt to wipe out these other cultural groups, because these groups are evil.
00:17:54.400 But it's important to remember that nobody in the history of any form of cultural genocide has
00:18:00.440 ever said, oh, we're trying to wipe out like a weak group or a group that's in any way equal to us.
00:18:06.280 They always see them as evil. They always see the cultural group that they're wiping out as
00:18:09.940 somehow a threat to them, as somehow actually controlling all of society, as somehow this big
00:18:16.240 boogeyman. That's the way cultural genocides work.
00:18:20.400 And again, we actually, our cultural group, the one that Simone and I are a part of, actually agree
00:18:25.960 was a progressive way of relating to same-sex attracted individuals. But we also recognize
00:18:32.200 that our culture is just one hypothesis about the way that humans should live. And we don't judge the
00:18:38.500 righteousness of another culture by how close to us they are in their beliefs, but by whether or not
00:18:44.400 they believe that those beliefs give them the justification to erase other cultural groups.
00:18:50.960 And to Simone's point, what we're saying there is that when you look at a progressive Jew or a
00:18:55.800 progressive Muslim or a progressive Catholic or a progressive Calvinist, right? Not that those exist
00:19:00.680 really, but if you look at them, they hypothetically existed. You know, they have broadly the same views
00:19:05.960 on gender, on sexuality, on the way we should relate to the environment, on what a human's future should
00:19:13.280 be, on what a moral versus immoral action is, on when life starts, on everything. They have basically
00:19:21.440 the same views on everything. They are one culture wearing the aesthetic shell of other cultures, where
00:19:29.280 when you're looking at conservative iterations of all those traditions, they have a really, really,
00:19:34.460 really different views on those things.
00:19:37.420 And I think here's the interesting thing, though, is that the common factor really is the dominating
00:19:42.220 element of it. And the only thing that really makes progressivism feel, but not act very different
00:19:47.980 from a very conservative, dominating religious culture, is that people wear different costumes within
00:19:55.880 it, right? Like, there can be...
00:19:58.460 Yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah.
00:19:59.920 But I think that this is, again, why the cultural group, because to a non-progressive,
00:20:07.740 you, if you are somebody who's in that cultural group and you're watching this and doesn't make
00:20:11.740 sense to you, you've got to understand how literally insane it sounds to be a cultural
00:20:17.640 group that says diversity is a thing of value and everyone's actually the same. There are no
00:20:25.560 differences between groups of people in any way. There's no ethnic differences between
00:20:30.300 groups of people. There's no cultural differences. It is sinful to say that, for example, isn't
00:20:36.280 it odd that Jews win Nobel Prizes at a rate like a 10,000% higher when contrasted with their
00:20:44.040 population? Isn't it, you know, the Catholics get Supreme Court positions at a really higher
00:20:49.200 rate, isn't it? You're not allowed to even voice these things because to them, equality means that
00:20:58.360 nobody's different. But then why does diversity matter? Why is diversity a thing of value
00:21:07.020 if we are not different? If people are not different, then diversity is just an aesthetic
00:21:15.340 choice. It's like the colors you're using on a palette or something. And the answer, again,
00:21:22.000 should be obvious given where the conversation has gone before. It's because they don't really
00:21:25.740 value diversity. What they value is diversity in victims.
00:21:29.120 Oh, I don't know. See, yeah, I was going to say, I think the difference here is the role that
00:21:34.200 intersectionality plays in progressive culture, where in progressive culture, dominance hierarchies,
00:21:40.300 like the, the extent to which you can play the intersectionality Olympics can determine your
00:21:46.880 status within the community. That seems reasonable. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but interestingly,
00:21:53.840 it determines your status within the community, not based on any special abilities it grants you,
00:21:59.860 right? So if you look at our worldview, you know, we see different cultures. It's having
00:22:02.960 different specialties. There's things they might be better at than other cultural groups.
00:22:06.700 Well, that's a value judgment, Malcolm. I think that, that for many people, the, the degree of
00:22:11.140 their historical... It's not a value judgment. It's an objective fact.
00:22:14.020 No, well, no, no. No, it's a objective fact that some cultural groups outcompete other cultural groups
00:22:19.300 Yeah, but that's, that's not a, that's not a value in progressive culture because what,
00:22:23.220 what they're looking at is, is systemic bias that someone has endured, elevates their,
00:22:28.740 their social status in a way that may be like in Catholicism, the extent of your martyrdom,
00:22:34.860 like the amount, the amount that you suffered for God will elevate your status.
00:22:39.100 Right. Because they're not looking for efficacy. They...
00:22:41.180 Right. But that's, that's, and that's fine. Like some cultures don't care about efficacy the
00:22:45.260 way that we do. So I'm just saying like, you're making...
00:22:47.180 No, no, no, no. But, but the point being is where you're saying that there are differences
00:22:50.960 in the way progressives relate to different cultures, they relate to different cultures in a way
00:22:56.200 where they value cultures that can argue to have endured more suffering or be more,
00:23:04.260 you know, systemically unstable in any way, like endure ongoing suffering, I guess you could say,
00:23:10.480 more than cultural groups that don't. And they, they achieve a position within their status hierarchy.
00:23:15.860 And this is because it's a status hierarchy that is based around the idea that every human's goal
00:23:21.460 should be to remove all pain from the world. Yeah. And so those who have experienced more pain,
00:23:27.640 either personally or systemically, historically, you know, deserve to, to be in a position of
00:23:33.900 elevation to have accelerated pain removal. Yeah. They, they, they get higher in the line
00:23:39.860 for the pain removal surgery. Yeah. But also I think that, that, that, that's what we're missing
00:23:44.880 as cultural outsiders is that diversity is not diversity. It's intersectionality. It, it is,
00:23:51.120 it is victimhood status, which, which often correlates very highly with minority community
00:23:57.080 status historically or presently. Okay. And, and with the way that you and I view diversity is.
00:24:02.060 But hold on, I would say that's not true. Okay, go on. Okay. So there's, there's two answers to
00:24:08.620 the word minority in the population that small society, but that's not the way progressives
00:24:16.820 often use it. When they say minority, they mean black people. There's many groups that are much
00:24:22.600 more discriminated against and much smaller portions of the population in the U S and black people
00:24:27.620 that progressives policy wise seem to not really give a shit about. And I think that that's important
00:24:34.360 to know that when they say minority, and this is actually when we're talking about fertility
00:24:38.380 rates, we see this all the time. Right. So I talked to progressives about fertility rates
00:24:42.360 and they go, is it affecting minority populations? And I'm like, yes, look at the U S right. Native
00:24:48.920 American populations have one of the lowest fertility rates of any group. And they're like, sorry, but
00:24:53.980 people in Africa are still having lots of kids. And I'm like, I don't see what that fucking has to do
00:24:58.620 with native Americans. And they're like, no, minorities are fine. I'm like, Oh, when you say minority,
00:25:05.460 you mean only black people, you don't care about anything that's affecting any, I don't know.
00:25:14.400 I'm going to push back a little bit. I don't know to what extent that's true. I think that,
00:25:18.220 that people in progressive circles very much care about native American populations. I just think that
00:25:24.460 they have less cultural capital and less of a currently elevated narrative and therefore suffering as a
00:25:31.700 result and people, you know, like what's right in front of them. And it's just, but no, I, I disagree.
00:25:37.060 I think that I disagree with you there. I think that they would tell themselves they care about
00:25:42.380 native American populations. I have not seen a major progressive campaign. If you look at the plight of
00:25:47.460 many native American incentives aren't there, there isn't a large voting base, like to your point,
00:25:53.000 right. Their populations are dwindling.
00:25:54.640 And that is the point, right? If minority to you means only the populations that are useful in
00:26:01.420 winning the next election cycle, then you don't actually care about minorities.
00:26:08.040 Again, I really question you're saying, remember like when we even talk about demographics,
00:26:13.420 right? Like native American populations are ballooning. Why is that? Because a ton of people
00:26:17.940 in the name of intersectionality, but also, you know, all the benefits.
00:26:21.520 Sorry, sorry. We should clarify what she means here. The native American fertility rates are going
00:26:25.940 way, way, way, way down right now.
00:26:27.720 The more people are identifying as native American because they're like one 25th native American,
00:26:33.580 because if you say that you've native American heritage, then you can get a bunch of benefits,
00:26:38.120 both like from a cultural intersectionality standpoint, but also in terms of like college
00:26:41.960 admissions, financial aid, et cetera. So I'm just saying, I don't like, if that were the case
00:26:47.920 that like native Americans had no cache in progressive circles, there wouldn't be ballooning
00:26:52.640 numbers of native Americans, right?
00:26:54.220 Okay. Okay. Then I'll use another group that may make my argument more strong.
00:26:58.000 Okay.
00:26:58.400 Which group is one of the smallest distinct cultural groups in the United States right now
00:27:05.140 that progressives increasingly care less and less about? It's Jews. Jews are a, if you're talking
00:27:12.480 minority, they are much more a minority than any of the groups we're talking about right now. They're,
00:27:18.680 they're an incredibly small percent of the population and they underwent a very recent
00:27:24.180 event, which shows that the, the world is, is incredibly.
00:27:29.020 From an intersectionality standpoint, they don't matter. Why? Because they historically have been
00:27:33.580 in positions of financial empowerment influence.
00:27:36.300 They've also historically been genocided.
00:27:38.080 Yeah. But you know, I think as soon as you have some people in a position of power, in a position
00:27:44.560 of wealth, you lose your like victim status. It's considered as deserved. So because they have all
00:27:50.120 these like wealth coins, they're genocide coins, you know, and also.
00:27:55.040 Okay. Okay. So the, well, no, I, I actually think it's more than what you're saying. They, and I've,
00:28:00.580 and I've seen this within progressive circles. I've seen increasing Holocaust denial.
00:28:03.820 There is a belief that it is impossible for a group to boast, um, economically outcompete.
00:28:11.420 If it turns out that all of the differences between groups in the world. So if you believe
00:28:15.280 that everyone's actually exactly the same, if, if Jews and everyone else is exactly the same,
00:28:20.700 like there's no differences between groups, then any economic differences between groups
00:28:25.980 must be ill-earned. They must be earned through mischievous means.
00:28:31.740 And so when they see Jews as a cultural group out earning other cultural groups or out achieving,
00:28:39.340 you know, academic success when contrasted with other groups, it is proof to them that they are
00:28:45.520 not discriminated against because it is impossible in a world in which everyone is equal to outcompete
00:28:52.380 other groups. If you are discriminated against, if the primary differences between cultural groups
00:28:58.900 are discrimination resultant.
00:29:03.860 And that's one, that's one view. And, you know, I progressive culture is not a monolith as much
00:29:08.440 as we say that it's, it's pretty homogenizing.
00:29:10.760 It is a monolith. I'm sorry. In what way is it not a monolith? Explain.
00:29:14.400 Well, because I do think that there are many people who identify as progressives who don't
00:29:18.020 agree with every element of it. I, you know, most people who identify as progressives are a lot more
00:29:22.440 reasonable and wouldn't say that, you know, you should be obligated to sleep with trans woman if
00:29:28.700 you're not like really turned on by that, you know, like I think most people are reasonable and many
00:29:33.120 people are progressives and they are.
00:29:34.560 I would argue that you're, you're being naive here. So just, you are telling the truth.
00:29:40.060 There are people who identify, so there's, there's people who, you know, identify with Mormonism,
00:29:45.680 right? Who will go out there and claim that Mormons don't believe that everyone eventually
00:29:51.080 inherits a planet, right? And takes over a planet and becomes a God themselves, right?
00:29:54.560 There's actual Mormon apologists who will say that right now. When Joseph Smith said this,
00:29:59.120 when Brigham Young said this, when the current prophets have said this. And so it's, well,
00:30:03.580 why are they saying this? It's in there? Well, I was never taught this in church, right? And it's,
00:30:08.860 yeah, but you're just on the outside. This is what your cultural group actually believes at the
00:30:14.780 highest levels. And this is what your cultural group will try to enforce on the surrounding
00:30:19.240 cultural groups, regardless of whether or not it's something that you personally identify with.
00:30:25.380 And I think that that's, that's really, this is like, you go to a Nazi and he's like, well,
00:30:28.920 I'm not anti-Semitic. It's like, yeah, but you, the, the, the, the camps, you personally not being
00:30:37.780 an anti-Semitic Nazi doesn't mean that supporting the Nazi movement doesn't lead to anti-Semitism
00:30:45.920 being advanced in the world. Yeah. And I do agree with you. There were, there were,
00:30:53.820 there were many Nazis that were not anti-Semitic. I will agree with that statement as well.
00:31:00.380 I don't think it means that Nazism broadly was, was not anti-Semitic.
00:31:09.680 I hear your point. Yeah. Yeah. This conversation has been pretty helpful to me in helping me
00:31:14.880 understand what diversity really means in progressive culture. And just to acknowledge
00:31:19.080 that progressive culture is a dominating culture, which is to say that it will not rest. It will not
00:31:24.840 be comfortable with the existence of groups that do not hold its doctrine. All, all apostates have
00:31:32.000 to be converted and no one can really rest until everyone has been saved. And that really like just
00:31:37.000 helps to explain the diversity problem. And also that diversity really is intersectionality,
00:31:43.520 which is just part of the status and virtue signaling and hierarchy of this particular culture.
00:31:48.940 So this has been actually, yeah, I was surprised. This has been pretty good.
00:31:52.700 Oh, you thought I was going to suck?
00:31:53.820 Well, I just, you know, I, I, I've struggled with this a lot. So I wouldn't think that I
00:31:58.760 wouldn't have thought that we could get to the bottom of it, but I feel personally, at least
00:32:02.040 we, I have a, an imperfect, but still functional for me now model that works a lot better than
00:32:07.800 what I had before, which was, oh. Well, yeah. When I feel in the same way that, you know,
00:32:12.620 progressive, the way that conservatives frame progressives and the way progressives can frame
00:32:16.080 conservative can lead to some conservatives to not understanding what conservatism is actually
00:32:19.840 about, you know, so often I see, especially young conservatives think that conservatism is about
00:32:25.180 their cultural group dominating others. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. You're just a progressive.
00:32:31.460 You just are in a cultural group. That's not winning right now. The real conservative movement
00:32:36.780 is in, and always has been, was in the U S about creating an environment that is stable for multiple
00:32:43.740 cultural groups, trying to exist intergenerationally with fidelity, not about erasing the people who
00:32:50.180 think differently than you, that the cultural genocide. And this is something that really,
00:32:56.420 you know, people are like, why are you so mean to progressives? And I hear this over and over again,
00:33:00.300 right? Like, why can't you just be nice? And it's like, you expect me to be okay with cultural genocide.
00:33:04.680 Like their actual goal is to erase everyone who doesn't think like them to take their kids,
00:33:11.560 to convince those kids that their parents are evil and bad people. And again, this is what
00:33:16.660 happened when it's a residential school program in Canada, like cultural genocide has happened many
00:33:20.360 times. And these genocide deniers, and that's what they are. They are genocide deniers when they're
00:33:26.420 like, Oh, my group isn't doing that. When you are a Nazi and you're like, I like Jews, Nazis definitely
00:33:32.500 aren't erasing the Jews from the world is yeah, but they fucking are. Okay. And the cultural group that
00:33:40.320 you are supporting fucking is its core goal is to take the children of the people who disagree with
00:33:48.600 it and ensure that they have the correct views on gender, sexuality, our relationship to the
00:33:53.700 environment, the future of the human species, what's moral and what's immoral. If that's not
00:33:58.300 cultural genocide, I literally don't know how you're defining the term. It is cultural genocide.
00:34:04.360 And, and, and, and just because you deny it does not mean you're not culpable for it happening in
00:34:09.440 the world. Cultural genocide is a necessary process of any dominating culture, essentially,
00:34:16.760 because everyone has to be converted to their ways. Yeah. Well, yes, necessary, but it's also evil
00:34:22.320 and it must be stopped. It's evil for our values. But if you literally believe that non-believers will go
00:34:28.720 to hell, it is your moral imperative. But progressive non-believers will go to hell. They're just doing
00:34:33.800 it for shits and giggles because they think that these other groups are intrinsically inferior to
00:34:39.320 them. No, they think that, they think that non-believers are both experiencing pain and causing pain and
00:34:45.000 that pain and suffering are terrible and bad things. Malcolm, you're not being fair. Well, no, okay,
00:34:50.780 okay, okay. So they literally shouldn't exist. I don't think you're being fair or you're not fully
00:34:56.580 comprehend. No, I think, I think it's very wrong. I think we're very against coercion, but you can't
00:35:01.480 just straw man your enemies. You know, I think you have to understand. No, no, no. I understand
00:35:06.180 why they're committing genocide. I understand why they're committing genocide, right? It's because
00:35:12.460 they think that they're removing pain from the people who are living under these cultural groups.
00:35:17.380 Yes. I think that through saying, well, this is why they're committing genocide, you to some extent are,
00:35:24.420 you know, you're like one of those people who were like, well, the Jews weren't perfect when you're
00:35:29.860 talking about why the Nazis did what they did. Right. You know, just give a reason why people do
00:35:36.120 they're very evil things for very stupid reasons. I'm not saying it's, it's not a stupid reason.
00:35:40.860 And I'm not saying that they're right to do it. I'm just saying that you can't just make up a,
00:35:45.000 if you make a dumb straw man reason for why people do it, you're not going to be able to fight them or
00:35:50.120 convert people to your views effectively because those people are going to be like, they're not
00:35:54.220 even trying. You just think that their reasons are more nuanced and justified than I have given
00:35:59.720 them credit for. I don't think that their reasons are justified. I think that their reasons are
00:36:06.220 in many ways, logically consistent, but easy to tear down when you, when you provide a little bit
00:36:13.280 more nuance and color to suffering and what actually causes suffering and that, that while
00:36:20.100 progressive causes and cultures are very against suffering, their interventions exacerbate it and
00:36:26.700 make it worse. So I think it's, it's possible to take the very progressive argument, to take the
00:36:33.120 deepest progressive values and, and use them like in Aikido against progressive culture itself.
00:36:39.400 But I don't think that an open ignorance toward progressive values, a refusal to engage with them
00:36:46.320 is going to enable you to use its energy against it. You're, you're right. And I, I, I think that's
00:36:52.140 a very good, what's the word here? Steel man. No, it's a good steel man. And I, and I, and I think
00:36:59.260 that, you know, I, I appreciate that. And I think any of the genocide deniers that watch our program
00:37:03.820 will appreciate your, sorry, that, that's, that's what I think of them as, you know, if you're okay
00:37:10.360 with a cultural group that's out there, that's using our school system to systematically erase
00:37:14.720 everyone who thinks differently than them. And, and, and, and if it was literally any group other
00:37:20.280 than yours doing that, you'd be like, oh, this is like the most evil thing anyone can do. I'd really,
00:37:26.600 you know, encourage some self-reflection.
00:37:31.740 But your arguments and your wording are not going to engage people. I'm sorry, but that's just like
00:37:36.020 a failed move.
00:37:37.360 Yeah. You can't tell somebody commit, you're saying I can't tell someone who's committing
00:37:41.040 genocide, they're committing genocide.
00:37:42.240 Yes. Because Malcolm, the way that minds are changed is you develop a connection with someone,
00:37:46.180 you understand what their values and motivations are. You get them to trust you and you come to trust
00:37:50.380 them and care about them. And then you help them to find more nuance in their beliefs and help them to
00:37:55.160 really think about what you're saying. And what instead you do with your attacks of progressives
00:37:59.720 and with your attacks of people that you disagree with, which I think is very dangerous, is you
00:38:03.720 essentially immediately say, hey, I'm your enemy, stab, stab, stab. And they put up their walls and
00:38:08.500 they never listen to you again. Okay. That's not going to work. The way that you change minds
00:38:12.500 is very different. It's a Trojan horse approach.
00:38:16.880 I, I really appreciate your ability to stay calm in the face of such immeasurable,
00:38:24.940 evil to the extent where you can communicate with people who to me, I have trouble even
00:38:29.960 communicating with Malcolm, our culture holds that all humans are inherently wretched. I don't
00:38:34.160 know how obviously I hold that as well. And my ancestors who held that started the, you know,
00:38:39.680 the free state of Jones. So why are you so unwilling? Anyway, why am I so unwilling to morally
00:38:46.620 compromise? No, I'm not asking you to morally compromise. I'm asking you to be effective and
00:38:51.920 you're not even willing to try to be effective. You're just like, I'm going to straw man my enemies.
00:38:56.520 I'm just going to make them hate me. I'm not even going to try to engage with them. And I think that
00:39:00.560 that's very sad because we have a culture that believes in efficacy. We have a culture that
00:39:05.760 believes in engaging with offensive ideas and you're not willing to engage with them. You just
00:39:10.540 want to other them. You just want to make them enemies. And that's okay. Like othering is a part of
00:39:14.160 an effective cultural technology as well. But if you actually care about addressing issues that
00:39:20.000 we're really... I think that you suspect that they are a much larger cultural group than they
00:39:25.540 actually are. Progressive?
00:39:26.680 I think, yes. I think that they are a, they are a cultural group that everyone is afraid of
00:39:33.260 within elite circles. But I think if you asked the majority of Americans, if they're actually okay
00:39:38.940 with what's happening, I think 90% of them would say no.
00:39:42.100 Well, I mean, I think if, if you looked at Nazi Germany, if we're going to go back there,
00:39:46.320 then the majority of people would not be really cool with what's going on. And a lot of it comes
00:39:50.060 down to which minorities and power. How do you stop it? You don't say in a nice way,
00:39:56.580 Nazis are bad and here's our nuanced take. It's, do you not see the camps? Do you not see what is
00:40:03.640 happening? That is how, because the truth is, is that your average person living under a Nazi
00:40:09.480 government, 90% of them, your average person living in America right now, 90% of them,
00:40:14.900 they're not actually okay with what's happening. They just haven't had it told to them in a way
00:40:20.320 where they can understand and contextualize how evil it is. And that's what we're trying to do.
00:40:27.020 And so I think what you're wrong here is you think my goal is to convert the dyed in the wool
00:40:33.860 progressive. Whereas my goal is to convince your average American who knows what they're doing is
00:40:41.040 wrong, but doesn't actually have a word for it. It's a forgetting before remembering phenomenon
00:40:47.200 that you have in psychology. So forgetting before remembering in psychology is this phenomenon
00:40:52.520 where somebody will go, Oh, it turns out I had like erased this grape from my life, right? Like
00:40:58.440 I had been graped to the kid and people are like, no, you didn't forget it. You just used other words
00:41:04.120 to describe it. You were like, my uncle touched me in ways that were weird and that felt funny. And
00:41:10.720 I thought it was really silly and uncomfortable at the time. And then one day in like your fifties,
00:41:16.080 you're like, Oh, that was a grape. Oh my God. That's what happened. And I think that for a large
00:41:23.060 part of the American population right now, what we need to do is just wake them up and be like,
00:41:28.060 this is a genocide. That's what's happening right now. Do you think that's bad?
00:41:35.460 No, I'm not against galvanizing opponents against genuinely, you know, harmful things that are
00:41:41.460 happening. Oh, that's fine. And that's important, but I'm just saying it is also possible to,
00:41:46.840 to change people's minds and convert the died in the woods, extremist progressives.
00:41:53.060 Died in the woods.
00:41:53.780 You can get through to them.
00:41:56.200 Well, I know you have no crystal bullet on this one, but.
00:41:58.880 Confidence and I'm glad there's two of us. There's one of us that can be the nice one.
00:42:02.740 And one of us that can be the mean one.
00:42:04.020 Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You be bad cop. I be good cop. And I love you very much, Malcolm.
00:42:08.300 I love you too.
00:42:11.460 I love you.