Based Camp - Does A Rise in Gays Precede Civilizational Collapse, Historically Speaking？

00:00:00.000 hello simone today is going to be a very spicy episode because i am going to be asking the

00:00:07.280 question do gays lead to the collapse of civilization the fall of rome joe rogan had 0.85

00:00:14.080 this to say on his podcast fascinating that the end of empires they get really concerned with

00:00:19.120 gender and hermaphrodites the roman femboy fully grown and willing to take on the role of a common 0.98

00:00:25.200 roman woman even the emperor himself donned girly outfits mascara and held many chamber parties the 0.97

00:00:33.200 roman senate began having debates to determine if quote being with a femboy was a totally gay thing

00:00:40.060 after all so this is one of those things that i thought was really good for like us to do because

00:00:46.040 i think our audience knows that we would be honest with them about what we found on either side of

00:00:51.320 this issue like there is no answer i could come to on this question that's not going to piss off some

00:00:55.600 large part of our audience so you know you're getting an honest answer from me and i and you

00:01:00.840 know a lot of people what made me think about this is i heard if you look at christians today i was

00:01:05.780 reading a a piece about how different the modern christian and conservative movement is from the

00:01:11.680 historic christian and conservative movement and they pointed out that if you look at christians today

00:01:17.160 who argue to ban things like same-sex marriage they base their arguments on the bible but if you look

00:01:25.860 at historic conservatives you know you go back to a ronald reagan or something like that they base their 0.85

00:01:31.980 arguments on loosening sexual mores specifically around gay sex will lead to the collapse of civilization

00:01:39.100 and they don't really mention the bible that much in in why they they argue for this stuff anyway

00:01:45.320 and it makes a lot more sense like i i argue that like okay if it was true that gays or loosening

00:01:51.220 sexual boundaries around gayness could lead to the collapse of a of a civilization like if that was a 0.99

00:01:56.720 trend that kept happening over and over again in history like i can understand like the morality of

00:02:02.280 putting a law around gay marriage i never understood why you'd want to police somebody else's marriage 0.82

00:02:05.540 but i was like oh the collapse of civilization that makes sense but the the christian argument makes no sense to me

00:02:11.620 because like obviously these people don't believe what you believe about god or christ so you're not

00:02:17.200 really helping them like right how does it help a a a non what you would think of as is your type of

00:02:25.380 christian person for you to enforce them to follow a few christian rules yeah that's not the core point

00:02:31.520 of that's like broadly against everything christian when when when it's supposed to be that you know if

00:02:37.820 you're a traditional christian on a techno puritan you would say well christ died for your sins and

00:02:41.160 it is through him that you you you get to god like it and and and even what christ said you know he's

00:02:47.000 not a sharia law guy you know he's he's he's uh you know render unto caesar right like christian

00:02:52.740 is actually distinct among the major religions and that it does not talk a lot about how you should

00:02:58.100 govern a country and explicitly has built within it a separation of church and state which i argue is

00:03:03.380 one of the reasons it has been such a successful religion it's much better to build religion that

00:03:08.280 way i mean that when you get a merger of church and state as you have seen within some christian

00:03:12.060 churches the churches get watered down super super quickly and which is funny a lot of people think

00:03:16.320 the reason you shouldn't have a merger of church and state is because the church will impose all sorts

00:03:20.300 of theocratic rules on people when in reality no it's that the state and the bureaucrats are very good

00:03:25.280 at watering down churches and that you really only get strong churches in regions where you don't have

00:03:30.020 a melding of church and state right but it happens every time so the melding happened recently you

00:03:34.220 might still get some theocratic stuff but it's 100 years ago 200 years ago no it's typically wishy-washy

00:03:39.140 but a lot of this comes down from jd unwin's work which is where the theory was initially posed so

00:03:45.800 i'll go into his arguments for this concept jd unwin's work frequently cited in support of the claim

00:03:53.000 provides a theoretical framework his 1934 book sex and culture studied 86 societies and concluded that

00:03:59.300 strict sexual restraint prenuptial chastity absolute monogamy correlates with cultural flourishing

00:04:04.520 while sexual liberalism leads to decay within three generations however unwin's focus is on

00:04:11.860 general sexual norms not specifically same-sex relationships and his methodology has been

00:04:17.300 critiqued for lacking direct causation the for the claim i'm gonna i told it to steal man both

00:04:24.380 positions unwin's findings are interpreted by some like rory f mcpaul's blog to suggest that western

00:04:31.120 sexual revolution late 1960s could lead to a collapse by the 2070s with modern factors like antibiotics 1.00

00:04:38.300 and pornography accelerating the decay comments in various articles also link homosexuality to moral

00:04:44.080 decay citing studies on intimate partner violence ipv from the university of torino these are disputed

00:04:52.940 well i mean i know that ipv is super high in lesbian communities or in gay communities i'm gonna ask

00:04:57.960 claude because that's yeah that's somewhat huh yeah it says even claude says higher or equal to

00:05:05.380 heterosexual men was it happening in 25 to 33 percent of gay relationships so okay that's that's like not

00:05:13.860 bad argument there right like if you're like well it's associated with societal ills found within these

00:05:20.780 relationships and i think few people would argue that it intimate partner violence isn't a societal

00:05:25.140 ill that you know there it might make sense to have regulations against it against the claim

00:05:32.140 critics including historians on reddits are ask historians oh such such veracity there argue unwin's

00:05:40.000 work is too broad with no direct evidence linking same-sex relationships to collapse the guardian article

00:05:44.340 2015 satirizes the claims calling the slippery slope arguments eg leading to polygyny animal marriages

00:05:50.700 fevered ramblings but a lot of the slippery slope stuff has turned out right like i remember i was in

00:05:57.020 gsa's as a kid and it would have been considered homophobic like i remember because somebody mentioned

00:06:03.040 this and they got like chewed out and like yelled at and and they shut out of a room to suggest that

00:06:07.980 trans people would ever attempt to compete in the sport of their gender specifically that trans women 0.89

00:06:14.380 would try to compete in women's sports they were like that's just homophobic slippery slope you know 1.00

00:06:20.420 insane ramblings and now they're doing that like the normalization of maps these are minor

00:06:26.460 attracted persons is is a movement that has been growing i'd say for that like the past 10 years or so

00:06:32.240 in terms of of normalization the yeah so i don't know if i agree with that right like so i then said

00:06:41.160 okay i can do research myself mr unwin because i also hate the progressive argument against this

00:06:46.840 yeah it's like well just that you keep getting cases of gays being accepted and then civilizations 0.99

00:06:53.160 collapsing doesn't mean it's causal right i'm like if it happens like every time counter hypothesis here

00:07:01.400 it could be the sign of cultural flourishing so what we need to do is is is look at broadly agreed

00:07:09.720 civilizational collapses okay look at when homosexuality was was accepted and see if it 0.99

00:07:16.440 was accepted more in the period before the collapse or in the period earlier like early in that

00:07:23.240 civilization's history before i don't like where this is going because i'm pretty sure it was mostly

00:07:27.820 broadly well actually i'm not sure you might be surprised you might be surprised yeah no i'm

00:07:32.960 thinking about it actually no oh the first one i ran was didn't didn't turn out well for for the

00:07:40.840 gays so this was on the islamic empire because i often feel that people under was there ever support

00:07:46.160 for gays oh a lot a lot yeah okay so in the medieval islamic world same-sex relations were documented

00:07:52.060 across several distinct periods with certain eras showing more visible evidence than others

00:07:56.060 the early period 8th to 9th century ce it's particularly notable for its relatively open

00:08:01.440 discussions of same-sex desire in literature this was the era of the poet abba nuez who wrote

00:08:06.600 explicit homoerotic poetry while serving in the court of haran al-rashid in baghdad literary

00:08:12.780 anthologies from this period collected numerous poems and anecdotes that referenced same-sex desires

00:08:18.620 and relationships the high medieval period 10th to 13th centuries across various regions of the

00:08:23.940 islamic world including in al-dinus muslim spain baghdad cairo and other urban centers produce

00:08:30.980 significant literary and scholarly works that acknowledge same-sex practices this includes

00:08:35.640 works by scholars like ibn hums corvo who wrote the ring of the dove and discussed various forms of

00:08:42.600 love including same-sex attraction the ottoman period particularly 16th and 18th centuries has

00:08:47.960 documented evidence of institutionalized same-sex practices especially in certain contexts like the

00:08:53.360 korek dancers young male dancers who performed in feminine attire and relationships with certain

00:08:59.220 sufi orders so this is like even in like the priesthood apparently was normal like in sufi orders

00:09:04.580 and and the the you had like dancers who would dance as like males but it was during specific periods so

00:09:10.100 then i ask okay when were the major collapses of muslim civilization and so i'll just remind you here

00:09:15.840 okay so the first period when gays were normalized within muslim culture was the early abbasid period 8th to 9th

00:09:22.400 century ce okay first collapse 9th to 10th century ce fragmentation of the abbasid caliphate the

00:09:30.500 centralized authority of the abbasid caliphate based in baghdad gradually weakened with various regions

00:09:34.900 breaking away under local diocese okay that supports it okay then the next period was a high medieval

00:09:40.800 during the 10th and 13th centuries mongol invasion 13th century perhaps the most devastating 1.00

00:09:46.380 shock to the central islamic lands the mongol quest of baghdad in 1258 ended the abbasid caliphate 0.81

00:09:51.940 and caused innumerous destruction of infrastructure including libraries and irrigation systems

00:09:55.800 many historians consider this a significant turning point and then the post-mongol period

00:10:00.420 of 13th 15th centuries also directly after this period of acceptance 10th to 13th century

00:10:04.380 while not a dark age this saw political fragmentation and some decline in certain

00:10:09.320 scientific fields in the central islamic lands though there was still significant cultural and

00:10:13.900 intellectual achievements okay well there was the other period the ottoman empire period

00:10:19.560 particularly the 16th and 18th century okay the late ottoman periods the 18th and 19th century

00:10:24.760 was the next collapse the ottoman period experienced relative decline compared to rapidly advancing

00:10:29.780 european powers though it was more about comparative advancement rather than absolute regression

00:10:34.620 so batting pretty much zero here with muslims it would look like if we're looking at muslim empires 1.00

00:10:41.660 there was a direct correlation to normalization of set we've seen a sexual restrictions around gays

00:10:46.960 and an imperial collapse so well i would try to justify this saying okay there are some cultural

00:10:54.620 traditions that just don't support same-sex attraction but others do and clearly islam 0.87

00:11:00.860 and same-sex attraction like these are just two cultural technologies or like this is a cultural

00:11:05.680 technology with a lifestyle that is not compatible so let's go to the next one this one is is more

00:11:14.320 interesting rome so what do you what do you you have some knowledge my guess with rome is that

00:11:21.160 gay relationships especially like the man-boy lover gay relationships that were so normalized 0.77

00:11:28.100 were not something that was late stage roman empire i think that was earlier stage and the late stage

00:11:35.360 stuff i think maybe that was less common even or maybe even considered not okay intuition was is

00:11:40.700 correct okay all right early roman republic period 509 to 20c bce same-sex relations were common

00:11:47.220 and accepted within certain uh parameters governed by social status and roles rather than gender

00:11:53.640 the key distinction in roman sexual morality was between being in active or a passive partner rather than the

00:12:00.520 gender of one's partner for roman men maintaining the active penetrative role was socially acceptable

00:12:06.060 regardless of their partner's gender the passive role was considered appropriate for only of those

00:12:10.740 of lower status typically slaves prostitute and young men who had not yet reached full citizen status

00:12:16.080 the system was firmly established by the mid-republic during the late republican early empire first

00:12:21.300 century bce to first century ce we see abundant literary and artistic evidence of same-sex relations

00:12:27.540 particularly in the work of poets like cactica catalyst tibolas and marshall emperor hadrian's

00:12:35.420 relationship with antonius 11 7 to 138 ce is perhaps the most famous historical example it's worth noting

00:12:43.800 that while same-sex practices were accepted others were stigmatized adult male citizens who preferred the

00:12:48.760 passive role could face social ridicule and even legal penalties during certain periods as they violated

00:12:53.680 expected gender norms the attitudes began to shift with the rise of christianity in the later empire

00:13:00.280 4th century ce onwards which generally condemned same-sex relationships by the time of emperor

00:13:05.920 justinian 6th century ce laws explicitly prohibiting same-sex relations were established there you go so

00:13:12.060 we have the opposite case here the exact opposite case in in rome a normalization of some types now

00:13:18.440 they still had rules around the types of gay sex you could have but normalization of some types of gay sex

00:13:24.280 were normal yeah in the roman empire and actually sex became more restrictive with the roman empire's

00:13:32.380 conversion to christianity particularly around gayness but i'd make a note here something you might not be

00:13:39.980 thinking is what is reflected in this is the idea that the periods that proceed or are during the rise of a

00:13:50.620 culture and cultural flourishing come with strict sexual norms and restrictions

00:13:56.280 it's just male male sex needed still heavily regulated yes male male sex need it be among the 0.72

00:14:04.420 restrictions but you need cultural restrictions and so what we might be seeing in something like you

00:14:10.700 know islam or something like that is these periods represent a degradation of restrictions and rule 0.99

00:14:18.300 following was in the religious system and that gayness specifically has nothing to do with it

00:14:24.860 let's go the next one i'm thinking well greeks they were pretty gay well actually this was interesting

00:14:31.460 because leather apron club argues that gayness was not widely practiced in ancient greece and he his

00:14:37.800 arguments are pretty he's like a smart guy like i think he's got like an agenda but like he's a smart

00:14:42.580 guy like his arguments are fairly compelling yeah um we go over his argument about jews in one of our

00:14:47.640 episodes are jews actually not smarter and i argue that he's he's actually probably right but he's 1.00

00:14:53.120 wrong in his second part where he goes and this is proof that they are cheating and that they have 0.65

00:14:58.200 gotten all these powers through ill gay and i'm like well actually it's here's all the evidence that 0.76

00:15:01.900 it's cultural and that's why they do better on on you know iq tests and everything like that is that

00:15:07.140 they have cultural practices and dominance hierarchies tied to academic accomplishments that lead to them

00:15:12.440 overperforming in these areas but his his episode on you know gays and ancient assets i'm like it was

00:15:18.340 weird because it's almost like an anti-classic republican episode because you know if if gays 1.00

00:15:24.640 weren't in ancient assets and they didn't contribute to the collapse of the greek city-states right

00:15:29.920 so what like okay so you don't get the jd unwin argument there but okay so i decided to dig into this

00:15:37.980 all right classical ascens 5th to 4th century bce is perhaps known for institutionalized pedestry

00:15:43.840 relationships between adult men orestes and adolescent boys or nomes these relationships

00:15:49.080 were often educational and mentoring in nature alongside their sexual component and were

00:15:53.180 relatively formalized within aristocratic circles sparta had institutionalized same-sex

00:15:57.620 relationships as well although for different purposes some scholars suggested that intimate bonds

00:16:02.000 between warriors were encouraged at the weight of strength and military cohesion seeds had the

00:16:05.980 famous sacred band an elite military unit composed of 150 pairs of male lovers based on the belief

00:16:12.100 that men would fight more valiantly to protect or impress their partners archaic period 8th to

00:16:17.880 6th centuries bce evidence suggests that same-sex relationships were already well-established

00:16:22.340 cultural practices seen in the poetry of sappho from lesbos whose name gives us the term lesbian and

00:16:27.940 others actually we don't know if those poems were even written you know in a lesbian way there's 1.00

00:16:34.480 actually a pretty strong argument they're not no but that is the mainstream position the one i just

00:16:38.520 gave you but what's important is i ask the ai to go through every period of greek history and then

00:16:44.700 tell me were gays accepted during that period or were they not accepted during that period so even if

00:16:50.120 it's making a mistake here like overstating how accepted it was it then understating how unaccepted

00:16:56.640 it was in later periods then they go to the symposium drinking party culture among elite men

00:17:00.400 interactions were common as depicted in works like plato symposium as with rome greek attitudes were

00:17:07.960 structured around status and roles rather than gender adult citizens were expected to take the

00:17:12.120 active role while younger males or inferiors took the passive role these relationships typically

00:17:17.200 followed age-based patterns the younger partner was expected to grow up and become the active partner

00:17:22.500 in relationships with others the hellenistic period so this is a later period 323 to 31 bce after

00:17:29.200 alexander the great so this is you know when when greece expanded and took over like most of the

00:17:34.160 known world and was in its period of cultural height not cultural height but like this was like the the

00:17:40.020 i guess the result of the success of greek culture now of course alexander the great came from a

00:17:44.900 different cultural background he was seen as sort of barbarous by the greek people and you could argue 0.76

00:17:48.760 that his ability to conquer them could be seen as a failing of greek culture which could to the

00:17:53.460 argument that the earlier acceptance led to this collapse i don't really buy that i see his

00:17:58.880 culture as contiguous with greek culture and so i would argue that if his culture had a success if

00:18:04.060 the the hellenistic period had a success that was partially as a result of the whatever was being

00:18:08.820 done before that in the hellenistic period several factors contributed to changing attitudes specifically

00:18:14.460 they became significantly more anti-gay the mixing of greek and non-greek cultures led to more diverse

00:18:19.260 perspectives on sexuality the rise of philosophical schools like stoicism emphasized sexual restraint more

00:18:24.820 generally the decline of the polis the city state weakened some of the institutional context where

00:18:29.780 same-sex relationships flourished and shifting political structures moved away from the citizen

00:18:34.660 focused culture that had supported certain forms of same-sex relationships all right this trend is 0.95

00:18:38.600 clear there's just a consistent loss of discipline that leads to civilizational decline it doesn't matter

00:18:43.240 who is having sex with whom yeah i then asked another ai and it gave me the same results about ancient

00:18:49.180 greek as in rome but then it also went into japan which wasn't another one so let's look at this

00:18:53.580 okay japan the edo period 1603 to 1868 but no moral stigma historical homosexuality accepted especially

00:19:00.860 among samurai outlawed in 1873 to 1880 to emulate the west now legal with protections post-world war ii

00:19:08.360 recovery quick economic cultural powerhouse no correlation with disintegration acceptance linked to

00:19:13.700 prosperity not decline challenging the claim so in only one of the instances in the islamic empire

00:19:22.100 could i find now you know jd unwin said he went through 83 empires i'm gonna bet in his 83 empires

00:19:28.820 he listed greeks and romans as having debauchery and then having civilizational collapse except now

00:19:34.820 we're learning that that's hundreds of years apart so rome is such an obvious counter example i actually

00:19:40.100 wanted to check this did he mark rome as you know a rare canceler example to his theory or did he mark

00:19:46.100 it as one of the cases that supported his theory because if he marked it as one of the cases that

00:19:50.300 supported his theory i think it's pretty clear that he was acting in bad faith in the other examples he

00:19:55.200 was using um and he marked it one as a instance that supported his theory but he also seemed to be aware

00:20:02.880 that the sexual morality of the later empire was much stricter than the sexual morality of the early

00:20:09.580 empire and so here's how he argued against that because apparently he went into it in detail

00:20:14.300 he focused on the uh specific aspects of roman sexuality that did follow his pattern for example

00:20:19.380 he emphasized the supposed sexual discipline of the early republic in rome in contrast that it was

00:20:24.120 the perceived excesses of the later republic and early empire now here i know that the sexual

00:20:30.680 discipline of the early republic rome was written about in the later empire it was people looking back

00:20:35.320 to the old days and being like oh things used to be so good in the old days it wasn't written about

00:20:40.120 in the early empire that way then he tended to interpret later rome empire's increased sexual

00:20:45.960 restrictiveness which came with christianization not as a genuine return to sexual restraint but as a

00:20:51.640 reaction to previous excesses essentially arguing that the damage had already been done but that

00:20:55.920 doesn't work with his three generation theories because that was a period of hundreds of years

00:21:00.040 he sometimes conflated different periods of roman history in ways that made the timeline fit his

00:21:05.840 theory better not always clearly distinguishing between republic and empire or between uh early

00:21:11.920 and late empire in his analysis he emphasized other factors beyond just homosexuality looking at

00:21:16.700 marriage practices divorce rates and other aspects of sexual behavior so it appears that and i hate to

00:21:23.140 say this because you know it would be based and interesting if his theory was right but jd unwin appears to

00:21:27.640 have been arguing in bad faith um and and not really looking at the data yeah i i get the mechanism of

00:21:35.540 action right like it it it actually makes sense if you think through it you're like okay well if you

00:21:40.220 loosen some cultural norms right there's likely other cultural norms that are being loosened and you see

00:21:46.160 sort of a degradation across also historically speaking same-sex relationships were really dangerous

00:21:51.820 uh there was a like like from a disease risk there's a reason like the aids phenomenon was such a danger to 1.00

00:21:57.280 people like there there is a in a historic context a degree of selfishness to risk exposing your

00:22:05.100 society the diseases that could come from this so you could argue it's a sign of moral degradation

00:22:10.380 within a society maybe this is also why i would argue that that same-sex relationships between women are 0.98

00:22:16.500 banned so rarely historically speaking they're they're not even banned in the bible which is interesting

00:22:22.220 so like yeah what are your thoughts more broadly like i understand the mechanism of action but it

00:22:28.640 doesn't appear to be being picked up by history yeah and i wonder why well because that's it's probably

00:22:34.460 not a real phenomenon like my my guess is is that what you're actually seeing is that if gayness if

00:22:39.960 you build a culture where gayness works and you're strict on other rules like other forms of stoicism 0.99

00:22:44.240 being gayness is not deleterious to a culture yeah i think so here's here's my take in general

00:22:49.000 is that because people have sometimes you know just based on your framework for sexuality people have

00:22:58.080 very strong arousal or disgust responses to sexually related stimuli and the average man

00:23:06.980 is going to have a strong disgust reaction to male male sex and as a result a lot of men are going to get

00:23:16.220 really hung up on man to man sex and i think that makes them hyper focused on it as like a problem

00:23:24.340 that arises in history i also really love your framework of cultures like from hard to soft to

00:23:31.660 super soft cultures and i think that basically because people have such strong instinctual disgust

00:23:40.640 and arousal reactions to various forms of sex and because most people haven't really thought about

00:23:46.260 religions in terms of hard to soft but rather christianity and islam and buddhism that they're

00:23:52.300 not really seeing this very clear pattern of no this is about how much discipline you have this is about

00:23:57.640 how much fitness you're imparting to your adherence and that's what they're missing yeah yeah and that is

00:24:03.760 not in in congruent with even i'd argue modern gay culture like there's been a branch of modern gay

00:24:10.620 culture that you could call like wholesome gays or the gay dad phenomenon where they obviously if you 0.51

00:24:17.180 like know them are actually pretty strict around a lot of the moral laws that they follow and they're

00:24:22.100 they're also like high performing professionals who work really hard this is why so much of the data

00:24:26.420 demonstrates that children of for example gay couples have better outcomes than your average kid

00:24:31.960 because they are born to very conscientious hard-working parents but then you've got to ask

00:24:36.500 okay well then what is causing the higher rates of abuse within gay culture and here i'd say it's

00:24:41.980 cultural bifurcation that you get within gay culture i actually think a part of the gay the

00:24:47.120 wholesome gay phenomenon is caused by the debauched gay phenomenon which is to say gays are sort of in a 1.00

00:24:54.300 position that you as a straight man will never get to be in if you want to hedonism max you're like 0.93

00:24:59.400 always better off being a gay man because like you can go to a party like i was just thinking like 0.94

00:25:03.680 there is nothing as a straight man i can go to that's like the functional equivalent of like fire 0.98

00:25:08.480 island or something like that 100 100 everyone's down f at any time like and you are the thing they

00:25:15.840 desire like that is going to lead to a level of debauchery really quickly and because they're

00:25:21.540 already breaking one sexual norm the normalization of breaking other sexual norms happened much faster

00:25:27.640 was in the wider gay community so sort of like debauchery maxing became a part of the gay community 1.00

00:25:35.100 and i think that the reactive wholesome gay community is in a big way like their wholesomeness is a is a 0.91

00:25:42.400 mirror because they have seen the lack of satisfaction that comes out of the debauched pathway that these

00:25:50.620 people often end up you know not satisfied with the choices they made when they hit their late 30s

00:25:59.580 and that they're like hey it actually made sense to follow a lot of those other christian people

00:26:03.500 right so or why or yeah yeah they could just be you know gay people who matured after having a lot of

00:26:08.940 fun and then decided that there was more more to life than just hedonic pleasure so i don't think

00:26:14.720 matured is fair i mean i think you can mature and learn more and still choose hedonism you know but

00:26:21.440 i i it's not the choice that i would make i i think that saying matured over over centralizes our

00:26:27.800 perspective but yeah what was the most surprising part of this for you because this was actually

00:26:31.880 surprising to me i had no idea that there was any gayness in islam ever oh really yes you don't see

00:26:38.280 the muslim guys like walking around holding hands all the time well i don't know like and the kissing 0.92

00:26:44.660 yeah the kissing the guys i was just like yeah i don't know like i i just i just saw that as a

00:26:50.900 cultural difference i don't see that as gay and i mean clearly it's not because it's super not allowed 0.56

00:26:55.480 by the way i mean you super get killed for being gay in a muslim country now yeah so like when i when i 0.93

00:27:00.860 see men in a super islamic country holding hands i'm like well they're definitely not like no homo 1.00

00:27:05.800 because actually that's a really good point if you look at muslim culture now like the culture in

00:27:10.740 like gaza or something like that yeah they are uniquely restrictive and have been for a long time

00:27:15.600 around things like gayness and yet are having the opposite of cultural flourishing they're in a state 1.00

00:27:20.160 of cultural like like drain degradation and you see that across the muslim world right now 1.00

00:27:26.920 yeah i'd actually argue generally speaking like i'm thinking modern times like let's say

00:27:33.500 post-industrial revolution or like around the period of the industrial revolution of modern

00:27:38.520 times i can't think of anywhere where it has been heavily suppressed that produced a flourishing of

00:27:44.740 art or culture well but let's look at this from a more practical standpoint right so like mainstream

00:27:50.380 culture permits gayness is way too loose what would a modern version of more a more hard culture 1.00

00:27:57.620 that nevertheless supports lgbtqia plus lifestyles like what would that look like would it force 0.82

00:28:08.220 strict monogamy would it force like with ancient rome more of a hierarchy what would it look like in a

00:28:15.320 way that imparts fitness and and corrects for some of the damaging elements of i mean gay and street 1.00

00:28:24.060 lifestyles well i mean i think the the the commandments that you sort of have within the

00:28:28.520 techno puritan tradition of severe austerity anti-idolatry you know these sorts of traits

00:28:35.720 not severe austerity but but austerity for the sake of austerity you know giving up things that that that

00:28:40.500 make your life marginally harder but are non-distractive to you like just not indulgent austerity

00:28:46.360 is a powerful one i think you know structuring relationships the way you would with you know

00:28:54.120 traditional straight relationships get married have kids etc so in other words a good gay relationship

00:28:59.660 would be just like a good straight relationship a business partnership first and foremost not focused

00:29:04.820 on pleasure or fun or things like that yeah not focused on pleasure focus on like a mutual goal for

00:29:12.480 your life i think that that would likely lead to more positive outcomes when i was noting like oh

00:29:17.160 where did people be like oh you're forgetting 1950s america like gays were not accepted there

00:29:22.100 and i'm like yeah but if i'm talking in like the grand scheme of human history i.e like acceptance of

00:29:28.100 gays they were actually pretty accepted they weren't like as extremely as accepted as they are today

00:29:33.160 but they were probably about as accepted as they were in ancient greece and you're like what you

00:29:37.580 could have also i don't see you could have been killed for being gay in ancient greece like even 0.82

00:29:41.540 i don't see the greatest generation as having a good culture and the reason why is they created 0.97

00:29:46.640 the boomers yeah like really you think that i mean those were the ones who really stopped having kids

00:29:53.860 and you know we we to a great extent judge the success of a culture by the number of grandchildren

00:29:59.720 they have yeah boomers just don't have a lot of kids and so the greatest generation at least in the 1.00

00:30:06.960 united states doesn't have a lot of grandchildren and i just don't really see that as a sign of

00:30:11.900 successful parenting yeah yeah i i thought this was an interesting dive and a lot of people have

00:30:19.680 expected us to flip on the gay thing and i'm just like it's oh to be like what happened i see that

00:30:24.020 this terrible because they know that we flipped on the trans thing right like at first we were just

00:30:30.060 like you know transitioning kids is wrong trans people in sports is wrong but like trans adults this is a 1.00

00:30:34.820 a real phenomenon that is not socially deleterious whereas now we're like it actually appears to be

00:30:42.520 a culture-bound illness that leads to really high rates of unaliving ideation yeah and so like

00:30:47.940 it doesn't even seem to create ideal outcomes for those who yeah like it doesn't it doesn't seem to

00:30:55.340 help anyone it seems closer to if somebody has anorexia which we argue in another video is also

00:31:01.880 a culture-bound illness you know overly represented in autistic populations focused on body dysmorphia

00:31:07.840 doesn't appear in most cultures just when they contact a culture that has anorexia all of a sudden

00:31:12.320 it appears is if you like removed trans women's uteruses to make them lighter and you're like look 0.99

00:31:17.140 they're happy with the surgery so clearly it's a good thing that we did this then everyone else would

00:31:21.360 be like what or and then you like removed one of their you mean if you removed anorexic women's 1.00

00:31:27.700 uteruses oh yeah you removed like one of anorexic women's kidney and a uterus you're like look they 1.00

00:31:32.980 can live without these organs right like but and they're happy with the surgery and you having been

00:31:37.880 an anorexic woman would be like yeah i'm lighter now like fewer organs yay like but but the mere fact 0.99

00:31:44.280 that they're okay with the surgery doesn't mean it's the best way we should focus on making them not

00:31:48.840 anorexic and i point out here that like like especially in doing this research again you see

00:31:54.140 gayness appear everywhere every culture has you know either prohibitions against it or whatever 1.00

00:31:59.580 you you you typically didn't even need prohibitions against trans because it's just not a thing that

00:32:05.120 existed historically or in any other culture you have different gender presentations but an

00:32:09.580 obsession was being seen as a specific gender is not seen anywhere in human history or in any other

00:32:15.080 culture and everywhere the gay trans people point to it they're just lying like it's clearly just 1.00

00:32:20.520 twinkie gay guys if you if you research that culture or just cross-dressers or just men who 0.98

00:32:25.700 present differently it's it's never an obsession was being seen as a specific gender to the point 0.99

00:32:30.560 that you will kill yourself if people don't see you as that gender which is the thing that makes it so 1.00

00:32:35.240 destructive it's the it's the gender dysphoria that's making it so destructive so that's why i changed 1.00

00:32:40.300 on that i changed on that because the evidence like as i gained access to more of it uh with this

00:32:45.020 unfortunately as i gain access to more evidence i'm just not seeing evidence that there is a broad

00:32:50.300 civilizational reason to ban this yeah but there is a broad necessity to for everyone to consider

00:33:02.780 what what is the hard culture version of your values yeah you should not be living a soft a soft

00:33:10.160 culture life whatever your values may be and maybe don't accelerate debauchery for the sake of debauchery

00:33:16.580 like i i would definitely say that there are some parts of gay culture that are likely socially

00:33:20.620 deleterious yeah and there are parts of street culture that are socially deleterious yeah so i am

00:33:27.080 agnostic as to the configuration of it so yeah change your mind about anything from this conversation or not

00:33:34.560 you know i hadn't if someone had been like if someone had made the blanket claim

00:33:41.000 that every time a culture starts to accept same-sex relationships it starts to fall i wouldn't

00:33:49.340 immediately have a rebuttal i'd be a little concerned like oh what really i'm not sure about that i don't

00:33:54.400 know i'm gonna have to look this up and i'm glad that my intuition about ancient room was correct i am

00:34:00.180 glad that basically this your findings broadly demonstrate that it's that the big correlatory factor

00:34:07.060 is not acceptance of same-sex relationships it is acceptance of looser social norms yeah and just

00:34:14.000 you know the way that somebody would argue out of this just so i can provide the comment i would

00:34:18.300 is well rome functionally socially collapsed long before the empire fell and that this social collapse

00:34:27.120 happened before the christians took power before the restrictions on sexuality happened and then they'd

00:34:32.260 say of ancient greece well you know alexander the greek alexander did represent a collapse of the

00:34:39.820 greek city-state empire so couldn't you say that it led to collapse in that way and we know sparta had

00:34:45.540 basically collapsed at the powerhouse from before before you know alexander mopped up so can't we say

00:34:50.660 that it did lead to a collapse but i'd be like i guess but then you just get to choose where the

00:34:58.520 collapse happened to fit your timeline right yeah it's it's just very convenient i'm using ai without

00:35:04.480 biasing it i'm i am saying okay when was gayness accepted in one chat and then when did empires

00:35:10.480 collapse in a different chat you know right yeah so so i'm basing it on what the ai has to say about

00:35:15.620 this yeah which i feel more comfortable with so yeah i'm glad you put that out there though i guess

00:35:23.120 a lot of people are going to be so disappointed so mad oh malcolm oh malcolm just how how dare you

00:35:32.340 say it's okay to be to be gay i love how mad leftists get when when pronatalism gets attention

00:35:39.560 publicly or happy if the attention is seen as negative possibly put us on the front page you were the top

00:35:48.720 post which i thought was really fun they're like oh look cnn's making fun of pronatalism and it's

00:35:55.100 like i'm sure they would like jump to our side if they realized you guys existed as a significant

00:36:00.560 movement 17 by the way was that of americans or who was in the samples americans it was census

00:36:05.880 representative wanted it's not that the world would be better without people yeah all right

00:36:11.100 what could it be

00:36:16.040 what is it toasty

00:36:22.760 okay let's put it up on the table take a look wow wow what's up is it okay

00:36:34.640 okay

00:36:35.040 okay

Based Camp - May 12, 2025

Does A Rise in Gays Precede Civilizational Collapse, Historically Speaking？

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