Based Camp - Does A Wife Have a Duty to Have ＂Relations＂ With Her Husband？ Conjugal Duties

00:00:00.000 hello everyone we're so glad to have you back at base camp today we are going to talk about

00:00:05.180 conjugal duties that is to say how much should each spouse be obligated to do sexy times with

00:00:12.620 the other spouse and is that important well yes and consent in marriages and everything like that

00:00:18.320 would you like to know more the reason i wanted to do this particular topic is because when fundy

00:00:24.860 snark channels when the channels that make fun of conservatives have their pearl clutching i cannot

00:00:31.840 believe they said that yeah moments yeah one of the most classic is around a wife's conjugal duties

00:00:42.840 the idea that a wife either would not have the ability to decline consent in a marriage or

00:00:51.120 um that a wife would have a duty to have sexual relations with her husband

00:00:56.160 yeah something so we hadn't actually talked that much about this as a concept before simone and

00:01:03.700 it's just something that hasn't really come up with us because i've never understood i yeah i guess it

00:01:08.900 didn't occur to me that you would ever say no if i wanted to do something so i am wondering how do you

00:01:15.840 like what yeah what are your thoughts on this topic do women have a conjugal duty to their husbands

00:01:22.220 my and i'm sure you can predict this my response is it all depends on what the relationship is founded

00:01:30.140 on if the relationship is founded on sex then absolutely if everything is predicated on that

00:01:36.040 if you know that your partner married you because they wanted to have sex frequently or because they

00:01:40.100 found you sexually attracted and and wanted to have sex with you regularly and are marrying you for

00:01:44.720 sexual access that is part of your obligation a really common stereotype of relationships so it's

00:01:50.940 common as a stereotype because it's true is that really high wealth high value men may marry a trophy

00:01:57.860 wife who is much younger perhaps not as professionally or financially successful but very sexy for that

00:02:04.360 sexual access and in that case it would be insane for the young woman who ends up getting married

00:02:10.920 to act as though it is anything but absolutely her conjugal duty to satisfy this husband this partner

00:02:19.220 sexually as long as they're married no matter how she feels like she should behave as long as he is

00:02:25.320 keeping up his end of the bargain which typically is i'm gonna you will live in luxury you will get

00:02:29.540 jewelry you will get clothing you will go on you know fancy trips have the best food whatever so i think

00:02:34.900 the the whole point is and this is why relationship contracts are so important partners need to know

00:02:40.240 what is being exchanged before they get married because it is 100 your obligation in fact i'm so

00:02:46.080 vehement on this that let's say i'm a young beautiful woman and an older man marries me because they want to

00:02:52.900 regularly have sex with a young beautiful woman yeah let's say i'm courting leonardo dicaprio and i'm

00:02:57.960 18 right i think that it is my duty we have to put the leonardo dicaprio chart on the screen here

00:03:04.100 what age is it when they turn 23 i think it's like 24 or something like that it's quite it's

00:03:09.600 mid-20s and along those lines i think he's a really great example here i would put in our relationship

00:03:14.900 contract if i were to marry leonardo dicaprio as that he would have every right to sleep with

00:03:21.660 whatever woman he chooses and i may even offer to help source those women after i age out of his

00:03:27.040 attractive age range if i want to maintain that relationship in other words if i want to continue

00:03:32.080 to be his wife and continue to have access to presumably his wealth his connections whatever

00:03:37.420 like the whatever he brings to the table that i would then need to continue to provide that item

00:03:43.280 of value i want to word what she just said differently because it's funny you're taking an incredibly

00:03:48.500 uh some people would say conservatist extremist position and they're immediately flipping

00:03:53.520 to a progressive extremist position this is what pragmatism looks like pragmatism is unmoored

00:03:58.800 from political bias so you are saying that okay if you are a woman who's coming into a relationship

00:04:03.960 without bringing much to the table in terms of your own career or really anything else like you

00:04:11.160 would see in a typical trophy wife right in that case just undisputedly every time conjugal duty is

00:04:16.660 obviously what's expected because that's what's being traded for yes but in the case of leonardo

00:04:21.200 dicaprio you pointed something out you pointed out an individual and we will say that leonardo

00:04:26.840 dicaprio has a very strong preference for women between a certain age range exactly regardless of

00:04:34.020 how disgusting you as an individual find that or we as society may find that you're just basically

00:04:39.400 throwing that out the window you're basically being look i am like a restaurant server girl and

00:04:44.460 somehow i got leonardo dicaprio fabulously wealthy famous person to marry me right i'm gonna be happy

00:04:51.580 with that but i also see this trend in his past dating life which is he always leaves people at x age

00:04:58.740 so how can i create a deal with him where being in a relationship with me is still something that is

00:05:05.940 on the aggregate desirable to him even when sexual relations with me are no longer desirable because

00:05:12.540 i think we what you have to do is actually parse out the thing of value that the person wants in a

00:05:16.960 relationship and the thing of value in this case is sexual access to a female under we'll say 24

00:05:22.500 years old and so if you are no longer a female under 24 years old you're gonna have to figure out

00:05:27.080 how to either end the relationship in an amicable way so there has to be like a really good prenup

00:05:31.820 it's okay when i turn 24 here's we get the divorce and then i get this much money yeah yeah you would

00:05:36.580 need a really strong prenup if you were going into it this way because you want to just like literally

00:05:40.540 plan for it like we have a birthday party that's an equal divorce party the lawyer's already paid for

00:05:45.000 all these things or you have to have a contingency plan i want to add though that there's another

00:05:49.680 part to this that i think is really important that shows up a ton in the fundy commitments to sex oh but

00:05:56.060 i also want to hear what you think of age gap relationships before you go into this a lot of

00:06:00.700 people would be like it's just fundamentally unethical how young the women he's sleeping with are

00:06:05.360 yeah i i don't think that those women are unaware of what's going on this is not a situation in which

00:06:12.960 they aren't aware of the fact that they're trading their beauty and youth for power and fame

00:06:20.280 i would argue i think you're right like at a at some level they must understand what's going on

00:06:27.840 however i would also say that um they may not realize that essentially he is spending their most

00:06:35.960 desirable years or they are spending their most desirable years on an individual who is going to

00:06:41.700 leave them and they won't be able to attract the same quality partner they will when they're older

00:06:45.680 just because yeah but also society doesn't tell women that they're spending their most desirable

00:06:50.640 years on university and career without getting married thereby wasting their ability to secure

00:06:55.400 one of the good males before all the males get taken so i i'm sorry i love this take hold on before

00:07:00.520 we go to the thing that the funding community does your take is age gap relationships are wrong

00:07:05.880 not because of coercion or power differential i.e the reasons progressives think age gap relationships

00:07:13.640 are wrong your take is age gaps relationships are wrong because it uses up a girl's best market years

00:07:22.220 without her having full knowledge that she is spending those years and that's where the unethical but you

00:07:28.780 say that they are not differentially wrong when compared to what all other girls are doing so you don't

00:07:34.600 complain but if it was one of our daughters you likely wouldn't allow them to do that it's not

00:07:39.220 that i wouldn't allow them our daughters would understand the opportunity cost of that choice

00:07:43.580 and i think there's something very different from opportunity cost knowledge and i think what's more

00:07:50.000 commonly implied is that oh these men are so much older and more experienced they'll win every single

00:07:55.860 argument but i'm like excuse me who do you think is more manipulative the 54 year old man

00:08:02.700 or the 23 year old girl like the girl is going to school this son of a bitch i i just don't know

00:08:09.680 what else to say no i i actually love this we have an amazing relationship and it's very physical

00:08:17.700 i mean he still pushes all my buttons people say oh but he's so much older than you and you know what

00:08:25.000 i'm the one having to push him away we both have so much in common we both love soup and uh we love

00:08:33.820 snow peas and talking and not talking

00:08:38.380 we could not talk or talk forever

00:08:47.020 i would argue that if you just look at this from an outsider's perspective you have a young

00:09:00.900 underemployed 23 year old girl who is dating a billionaire guy or multi-millionaire guy who is

00:09:09.040 the one that you think is the manipulative one here and here i'm going to play a clip from best in

00:09:13.240 show of of the girl who's dating like the old guy who's about to croak and you know is sleeping with

00:09:18.880 the her trainer like the she's actually a lesbian and she's just dating him obviously for money but

00:09:22.740 like who do you really yeah i do love that where they're like oh it must be the guy who's manipulating

00:09:27.960 the girl like what a a silly and misogynistic thought to have yeah there's also this concept

00:09:34.940 of financial abuse right we're like when a partner it could be female but typically it's the men who

00:09:39.600 are accused of this the male breadwinner or the wealthy male in a trophy wife situation

00:09:44.200 financially abusing his wife because he has access to all the money now obviously there are some

00:09:49.480 cases of genuine almost captures where you know women are totally disempowered they have no ability

00:09:53.780 to get out of a relationship but most of these situations are people coming in with full knowledge

00:09:58.920 of the fact that they are going to be financially dependent on these men and then they claim that

00:10:04.080 they've been financially abused by their spouses um when you know they could just get a job and it's

00:10:10.920 just that they don't want to get a job and i'll never forget you and i were when we first acquired a

00:10:15.440 travel management business and airlines still gave away business class flights to agency owners and we

00:10:22.380 were on a business class we would never normally pay for a business class flight no but this is how

00:10:26.420 we got it was great and there was this woman who sitting next to us who had bought two seats

00:10:33.080 yeah because she just wanted this seat next to her empty yes now she was in telling us that she was

00:10:38.920 getting divorced from her husband because he was financially abusing her and i was like i hadn't

00:10:44.940 heard the term before i go like what do you mean by that and he goes she said i was just wasting money

00:10:49.700 all the time and i didn't understand the value of money and now that i'm out of that abusive marriage

00:10:54.400 i'm free to live my life and here i am being like excuse me you bought two business class seats next to

00:11:00.940 each other yeah you may have had a point yeah this is one of those am i the asshole situations

00:11:06.160 anyway you did not say anything there but anyway i most i feel like a lot of the complaints in that

00:11:12.300 realm as well in terms of age gap relationships are overblown people getting into them often and this is

00:11:19.020 something that is very controversial but quite honestly their other options are worse than the

00:11:25.380 suboptimal relationship i'm not saying it's ideal to be married to someone who you may not have that

00:11:31.520 strong of an emotional connection with or you may have married you don't find them attractive but they

00:11:36.180 give you a lifestyle that you really want but then again maybe your other options are to be to be

00:11:42.120 working at a starbucks and you really hate customer service or to be doing a door-to-door sales job i don't

00:11:47.260 know something you pointed out in previous episodes is people talk about the quote-unquote abuse that

00:11:53.820 happens in a marriage when they are contrasting that with sitting at home and having all the money

00:12:00.840 you could ever want in the world instead of the hardship of a day-to-day office job or low education

00:12:07.540 job yeah which is generally going that sets the bar of what is more abusive than that pretty high so

00:12:16.340 let's go down the argument that you were going to make initially which is something you've noticed in

00:12:20.640 fundy relationships yeah so what's often talked about and implied within fundy or even just

00:12:26.980 conservative or traditional relationships is this the husband gets sex whenever he wants it and the

00:12:33.300 wife off will never say no and it just happens and that it's often not when the women write about

00:12:40.700 their encounters their intimate encounters there's not a lot of foreplay like whatever it's it just

00:12:45.560 happens and then it's over and then people like ben shapiro have talked about things like female

00:12:51.360 lubrication not being a real thing according to his wife or something and one really gets the impression

00:12:57.920 that a lot of these more conservative religious wives are technically not withholding sex but as far as

00:13:06.220 i'm concerned they are not offering their part of the bargain because they are starfishing which is to say

00:13:13.280 they're just lying back and taking it for the country when i think that if you're if a person

00:13:19.580 marries you male or female i do not care for sexual pleasure your job is to understand what their sexual

00:13:28.000 interests are and to meet those sexual interests satisfactorily and i will say the one universal thing

00:13:34.440 that seems to be so common across most genres is is enthusiasm from the partner is oh my god

00:13:43.260 i love you i cannot wait to do x to you i cannot wait for you to do x to me oh my gosh i am loving

00:13:48.960 this yes blah blah blah like just lying there and taking it is it's almost worse than denying it

00:13:56.440 which i think is but i also think this is likely a two-sided thing so okay an interesting thing about

00:14:02.480 ben shapiro's case is you may not know this but if he was actually practicing a conservative jewish

00:14:08.680 lifestyle one of the responsibilities and i forget the word here but there's three core

00:14:13.440 responsibilities a husband has with his wife and one of the three is to make sure that he is sexually

00:14:18.380 satisfying her right and so he is technically failing at being a jew if this is accurate that he is not

00:14:24.520 pleasing her and i think that this comes to a point here that you made which which is just really

00:14:31.420 important which conjugal duty i would actually argue and i think you argue this as well is almost

00:14:40.360 like less like if it's less than what is actually expected of an individual totally you don't have a

00:14:47.400 like a conjugal duty if you are just performing a conjugal duty you are not performing the role in the

00:14:54.340 relationship the sexual role in a relationship that's actually expected of a partner what is actually

00:15:00.580 expected is that you take the satisfaction of your partner as seriously as almost anything else as i say

00:15:11.620 the only two responsibilities you have above your spouse's well-being is to god and your kids and

00:15:20.400 after that your spouse comes above yourself significantly above yourself and that means that you should

00:15:27.760 attempt to understand exactly what they're into it's not like a i'm just having sex with you

00:15:34.880 and we're done it is let me fully understand and if you read something like the pragmatist guide to

00:15:41.000 sexuality you'll see that the way sexuality actually works is it's like this giant circuit board basically

00:15:46.340 of knobs it's not like a few things that may arouse people there are and you can go through the book

00:15:52.360 hundreds of things that commonly arouse people these are certain emotional states certain

00:15:57.420 environmental stimuli certain visual stimuli different ways of interacting some people are

00:16:02.860 very sexually reactive meaning that they do not feel arousal or attraction to somebody just for being

00:16:08.760 around them but they do when the person is engaging them and you you and somebody like that might be

00:16:16.240 like you just said oh i'm sexually reactive therefore i'm never going to pursue my partner sexually

00:16:24.640 right and it's why is that the case and it's like doesn't turn me on to do it it's stop does it actively

00:16:31.140 cause you great discomfort to pretend like you're really interested in your partner and start a

00:16:36.120 relationship sometimes you're like no not really a bit of larp in the beginning isn't that much of a

00:16:40.660 problem then why aren't you doing it if it makes your partner significantly happier this is what

00:16:46.620 you're doing and here i would note that where there is the exception is in some individuals because the

00:16:52.680 way sexuality works we talk about this in our sexuality book is it is a scale from arousal to

00:16:58.520 disgust it doesn't stop at nothing yeah disgust is part of the sexual system you can watch our other

00:17:04.480 videos on this but it's basically an inverted sexuality anything that arouses of a large portion of the

00:17:08.620 population is going to discuss some other portion of the population anything that disgusts a large

00:17:12.860 portion of the population is going to around the small portion of the population but what this means

00:17:16.540 is that sometimes partners will have really high disgust reactions to a specific thing that you may be

00:17:23.720 into now so that could be something like anal like just no anal like a rule no anal ever because that

00:17:30.020 would cause me such discomfort that whatever pleasure you're getting from that is just not worth it

00:17:34.680 for our net productivity and desire for each other and that's okay it's okay that one partner is like

00:17:41.600 something that you like causes me great disgust and distress the problem is when instead of being i

00:17:49.480 guess negative in terms of the things you're taking off the table okay this i don't like this i don't

00:17:53.500 like this i don't like is coming at this these are the 10 things that are approved because that is

00:17:59.060 almost certainly not going to overlap with that's not even like you went and investigated and tried

00:18:04.480 to understand what your partner is into right yeah but here is where sexuality gets really interesting

00:18:11.720 i think from a conjugal duties perspective um which is it is possible to have a relationship where

00:18:18.640 conjugal duties are not expected oh totally when is that the case that is the case when it is explicitly

00:18:26.040 stated before the marriage happened that is when that is the case and why do i say it needs to be

00:18:31.940 explicitly stated before the marriage happened or in a marriage contract or something like that

00:18:36.340 that is because in our society right now if you are getting into a marriage the default assumption is that

00:18:43.980 that marriage is going to have a sexual component and so if one of you goes dead bedrooms that is

00:18:51.740 turning your back on a component that was a presupposition when the marriage happens and if

00:18:57.860 you have that presupposition you're like yeah but then i just can't bring myself to sleep with my

00:19:02.640 partner anymore then that's a serious issue and there are multiple ways to resolve it it could be

00:19:08.320 because your partner has let themselves go yeah in which case they actually violated the contract as well

00:19:12.880 so long as you had attractiveness clauses or no i'd actually say i'm talking default societal

00:19:18.160 assumptions i think if you guys agreed nothing before you got married and then after you got

00:19:23.540 married one of you gained a significant amount of weight and then the other person starts that's

00:19:27.200 fair yeah i would say that's fair yeah okay if however you two are equally fit as when you got

00:19:33.860 into the relationship and one person stops i would say no that's a foul and that with that foul that

00:19:40.620 doesn't necessarily mean the marriage has to break up but it means that person now has the right to

00:19:44.820 look for alternate sources of sexual release yeah and i think that's super underrated in that i think

00:19:52.040 with especially male sexual interests this is not so much the case with female sexual interests

00:19:57.940 just saying basically if you can't get it with me you're welcome to get it somewhere else as the wife

00:20:03.640 is a huge negotiating point that can really keep marriages together because sometimes women lose their sex

00:20:10.640 drives sometimes women just aren't that into it and i think there's a long history of established

00:20:19.100 older wives who've maybe had a few kids knowing that their husbands are having affairs knowing that

00:20:23.620 their husbands sleep with other women or have mistresses and being like pretty cool with it and

00:20:28.100 having otherwise quite functional relationships because it's just understood hey i'm not the person

00:20:31.960 who's going to provide that part of our relationship anymore someone else is going to do it but i'm glad

00:20:36.200 you're getting it somewhere and so what simone is saying is that if you are a woman you can augment

00:20:42.860 your value to particularly high status men by altering the expected contract that you're getting into

00:20:49.980 relationship with them in and allowing them to sleep with other people now a lot of people are like

00:20:56.120 ew gross like how could a woman do that but the problem is is that if you are dating like the

00:21:01.080 creme de la creme of society like billionaires and stuff like that movie stars pretty much because

00:21:06.360 we hang out adjacent to these classes of people i'd say 70 80 percent of their relationships are

00:21:12.280 structured this way well just a business relationship imagine that you're establishing

00:21:16.340 a contract with a vendor and you'd like it to be a full service contract and it starts out full

00:21:21.460 service let's say you're a resort working with a client and you want that client to always stay at

00:21:27.460 your resort or something and you have restaurants you have a spa you have hotel rooms and they you

00:21:32.020 know and and other services tours and they use all of that for several years and then they decide you

00:21:37.580 know what i really want sushi and and you don't have a sushi restaurant and there's one right across

00:21:41.220 the street like why is it so impossible that they could get some service somewhere else and then

00:21:47.180 utilize all of your other services appreciate them hold on i want to be clear simone i think that this is

00:21:52.620 something that is only viable for basically billionaire class men i do not think that this works for men

00:22:00.880 below the billionaire class so two quick side notes here when i say billionaire class men billionaire

00:22:06.880 class men doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally billionaires it just means that they are the

00:22:13.540 highest status men within their domain of respectability so for example a president or

00:22:22.480 a famous philosopher or something like that and i should also note here that i am explicitly saying

00:22:28.680 men it does not appear just anthropologically speaking that any society i'm aware of has been

00:22:36.060 widespread and successful and allowed women to take multiple partners the reason being is that women

00:22:43.360 unconsciously bond with their sexual partners much much more than men do so even if a woman is just like

00:22:50.960 well i want to try something else for a short period the net effects on her emotional state long term

00:22:57.200 are going to be much more impactful than the net effects on the male's state long term the only case

00:23:04.020 where i can think of it being okay or for a relationship to be able to stay stable with the wife sleeping with

00:23:11.260 other partners is if the husband is specifically into that and the wife is also into that i guess because

00:23:18.240 the assumption is that other women that they would be with would ultimately want a full-time

00:23:24.480 relationship as well no it's because i have no idea where you're going with this no

00:23:30.240 like regular polyamory as practiced within our society is just completely unstable it doesn't work

00:23:37.560 however historically speaking people who would have been billionaire class even in monogamous

00:23:44.480 societies even in catholic europe for example all a lot of i wouldn't say all but a lot of the french

00:23:51.440 monarchs for example a lot of the monarchs more broadly had mistresses i don't even i i don't

00:23:57.280 i can't imagine there was one that did not have mistresses yeah so the even within traditional

00:24:03.520 christian value systems if you're talking like lovers yeah yeah yeah if you go back and they're like oh

00:24:08.560 this wasn't true in the 50s excuse me do you not think the billionaires in our society in the 50s do

00:24:15.200 you not remember like kennedy and the famous scandal with him and who was it marilyn monroe the

00:24:22.560 billionaire men so why is this the case that the absolute creme de la creme men in our society

00:24:27.120 generally have a choice as you've all seen on the news our country is facing a major crisis why why are

00:24:33.840 rich successful men suddenly going out and trying to have sex with lots of women why would a man

00:24:38.960 who's famous and makes tons of money use that to try and have sex with lots of different women

00:24:45.600 and these rich celebrities have perfectly good wives at home why would they even think of sex with others

00:24:51.520 damn it i want answers of course we all know the normal healthy male thinks only of sex occasionally

00:24:59.600 has no desire for sex with multiple partners yeah that's definitely true yes we all know that go on

00:25:06.160 to better understand the sex addiction outbreak we've been running tests on chimpanzees

00:25:11.760 but now see this chimp here now watch we're going to give it a lot of money

00:25:29.600 and what's it doing now making a public apology on its talk show

00:25:38.800 it's because they are the most desirable class of humans in society by that what i mean is if you

00:25:46.560 look at how partner sorting happens and i'll put a thing on the screen here so you can see

00:25:51.360 desirable women have it good but not that good because for a desirable woman if i'm a top one

00:25:57.840 desirable woman the problem is that the top one desirable men don't just have me to choose from

00:26:03.600 they basically can choose from any of the groups of women they'll choose within the top 20 of women

00:26:09.040 often i will only choose a one person man so i actually have a fairly hard time securing a man

00:26:15.280 and if a woman who is in the top two percent or top five percent tells that guy hey look i'll let

00:26:21.040 you sleep around and i top one percent women aren't coming to them with that proposal then they're not

00:26:25.760 going to stick with me and so that's why these men become used to these kinds of proposals from women

00:26:32.960 and so and it's because it becomes a cultural norm in their communities that they adopted

00:26:38.080 do i think it leads to better relationships than the type that i have no it just becomes a cultural norm

00:26:44.720 in their communities so i'll word this differently i i actually think if you are a top like billionaire

00:26:49.600 class guy and you get used to this you will never be able to have a life as happy as my life

00:26:56.560 and that's one of the things that i often look at where i'll look at the billionaire men in our

00:26:59.920 society and i'm like wow they live in such poverty i don't know what to call it like spiritual

00:27:04.240 poverty when contrasted with my life however if i was a billionaire would i not act the way they act

00:27:11.440 would i actually and when i say a billionaire i've been a billionaire for 10 years or whatever not

00:27:15.520 like if me today with my value system and my wife and my family and all the hindsight that gave me

00:27:20.720 suddenly became a billionaire but if i had done the whole ultra hard work thing for ages and ages and

00:27:26.320 gave everything up and then began to socialize with women again and i hadn't done it since i was in high

00:27:31.280 school or i hadn't fully you know their mental perspective is quite different from the rest of

00:27:36.320 society so i understand it but i think it's like a temporary optimum and it isn't the maximum optimum if they

00:27:42.720 could get above that and then try to structure a wholesome life i think that some billionaire class

00:27:48.400 men rarely in history did structure wholesome lives and they ended up with like uniquely good

00:27:55.120 relationships yeah this is actually kind of messed up when you think about it that once i believe as as a

00:28:02.800 man well and as a woman as a woman it's shown you know once you get above certain levels of wealth

00:28:07.520 the probability that you get married or get into a happy relationship are very low there's those

00:28:13.200 studies of women who win a large amount of money and and what actually happens is they just divorce

00:28:19.120 their husbands um but but as a man that you can be super super wealthy and not have access to the

00:28:26.240 levels of happiness and contentment that i have access to it's it's not that you literally don't have

00:28:32.560 access to them it's just that the way the world is structured makes it astronomically harder for them

00:28:39.920 to access this lifestyle than it is for me to access this lifestyle so you can take someone like

00:28:45.600 elon who i have enormous respect for do i think that he would be much more contented and satisfied with

00:28:51.680 his life if he tried settling down with one person and bought a farmstead and moved to a more remote

00:28:59.760 work situation and was able to spend you know more time with his kids and more time with one partner

00:29:08.320 who he was really invested in absolutely i i do not think that he has access to the quality of life

00:29:15.360 that i have access to yet i believe he has done more to make the world a better place than i do

00:29:22.880 and thus deserves more which is um sad and then you could look at the the other ultra wealthy

00:29:29.680 people that have i guess i'd call them sort of serial monogamous relationships that is you know

00:29:34.480 monogamy with divorce so they have you know some simulacrum of a monogamous life but i think they

00:29:41.680 even have less happy lives than someone like elon so here i'm thinking of someone like a jeff bezos

00:29:46.400 you know when i look at the ways that this this woman who you know took all this money that he made

00:29:52.320 and really didn't contribute much of anything is spending it on she could not have been a pleasant

00:29:56.960 person to be married to she just seems you know a complete npc which would be so sad to be married

00:30:03.600 to or or you know speaking of npcs who could be like well what about mark zuckerberg you know he

00:30:09.440 seems to be in a stable long-term monogamous relationship but i'm not really convinced that

00:30:15.280 he is not he just seems fully urban monoculture to the extent that he is just one of those npc memes plus

00:30:25.040 and i think that the level of happiness or really the depths of emotions that are accessible by

00:30:32.080 somebody in an npc state are fairly limited and this is another problem that we see because i think

00:30:39.680 this is a mistake that that jeff bezos made which is yes you can be ultra wealthy and in a totally

00:30:46.080 monogamous relationship but if that person is a total npc it's just not going to be interesting this

00:30:51.360 is why for elon i'd recommend you know if he was going to settle down with someone settle down with

00:30:56.320 somebody who's weird and interesting and willing to go against social mores like grimes for example

00:31:03.280 i think would be a very good long-term partner for him and i think that when he had tried long-term

00:31:07.440 relationships to begin with the problem is that the people weren't as weird as him and it's also

00:31:13.840 something where i reflect on you know when the media is mean to me or when people in public are mean to me

00:31:18.000 and they're like oh malcolm you you monster you x y z i often have to take a moment to reflect on

00:31:26.720 how good my life is and it's it's almost impossibly good it's almost impossibly good when i reflect on my

00:31:36.480 life these days it feels like sort of the before scene in like a punisher movie or something like that

00:31:42.320 which creates this sort of dread that i guess i i constantly feel like it can't be this good and

00:31:49.440 the way that i have come to terms with that is to consider that this must be a reward for me tanking

00:31:59.520 all of the hate that my wife and i get publicly and all of the threats that my wife and i get publicly

00:32:06.080 and that we are being rewarded for the difference that i hope we are well not i hope i know we are

00:32:15.040 trying to make in the world and i hope that is realized in the world and i guess i could see my current

00:32:21.680 undeserved contentedness as a sign that we might be successful with this

00:32:26.800 so long as we can tank through all the hatred but there is a final thing that i wanted to say for

00:32:31.920 normal men and we can do a whole episode on why i don't think like polyamory often works for

00:32:36.000 middle-income people okay but because i've had more time to see the outcomes of it with my friend

00:32:42.000 group longitudinal research we hang out with a lot of like tech guys in california okay longitudinal

00:32:48.320 anecdata yes yeah and my anecdata is it basically never works actually i can't think of a single

00:32:55.520 no i can think of one long-term instance where it seems to have worked do i know it yeah yeah but i

00:33:01.520 don't know yeah don't name names yeah i don't want any new names i don't know it's public seems pretty

00:33:06.320 happy i wouldn't name names okay i'll take that out but so the but what i was going to say is the other

00:33:13.840 thing that's worth noting is alongside conjugal duties is there's a few things to accept here sex

00:33:20.560 non-reproductive sex is inherently sinful all non-reproductive sex is basically a fetish

00:33:27.200 it is pleasure for pleasure's sake even if it is a bonding ritual now so so it's sinful

00:33:33.280 if you like us do not think that happiness has inherent value i'm talking about in our system and

00:33:41.200 i think yes in most i say real christian systems i know there's some christian systems that have moved

00:33:47.600 to this worship of the flesh where it's oh in marriage sex is a holy thing always and i am like

00:33:54.400 no no reproductive sex is but sex more broadly i don't think that is true you are using another

00:34:02.880 human's body to masturbate it is a form of sin it takes away from your time that you are being productive

00:34:08.160 but that doesn't mean that because we all sit we aren't jesus right so we all do things that are meant to

00:34:16.000 satisfy ourselves and as a partner to your spouse while you have a duty to help uplift them as a

00:34:23.600 person and improve as a person you also have a duty to max out their happiness debt i'd say the

00:34:30.000 little green triangle on a sim your duty to your spouse is to make sure that's always as green as

00:34:34.800 possible and what that means is not just sex and that's the important thing is it means that you need

00:34:43.680 to understand the sins that they are not currently working on and allow them to indulge in those

00:34:52.480 sins where so long as they are making improvements in other areas with men this means that because a

00:34:58.880 lot of women don't desire sex in the same way men do in a long-term relationship right but they have

00:35:05.600 other sins for example desiring status signaling jewelry such as or desire fancy trips or furniture

00:35:15.520 whatever it might be and you have a duty in the same way that they have a duty to try to help maximize

00:35:23.520 your mood and self-perception as you are working on that together right you have a duty to them in the

00:35:29.600 same regards yep and so i would say that it is as bad if you have the financial resources to invest

00:35:36.880 in things like that unless you explicitly agree to not before the marriage and that's why marriage

00:35:41.040 contracts are so important because otherwise you're operating on society but within societal defaults i

00:35:46.400 think that there is some duty to supply the woman especially if that woman is doing her job and trying

00:35:53.600 to make you as happy as possible to supply her with the things that she needs for the same sort of

00:36:00.160 validation that you're getting from that sex and that might be jewelry it might be pearls it might be

00:36:05.600 nice furniture it might be a pet for example there are many self-perception modifying things it's just

00:36:12.800 that one of the most gendered towards men is sex and yet our society has built this bizarre

00:36:19.520 consent concept today and i'm not saying that consent doesn't matter at all but i'm like when

00:36:26.720 you just are like consent is like a steel thing that can never be crossed you end up with this really

00:36:33.360 horrible framework where a wife can just always say no right like just no we're not having sex anymore

00:36:40.640 and consent and you can't get mad at me for saying this and it's like that's silly the way this works

00:36:46.560 in real life in a family where like you're actually have a caring relationship with your partner is one

00:36:52.160 person i value this and the other partners i value this or i'm not in the mood for this today could we

00:36:56.880 do it this time or under these other conditions for example my wife would say these days i've got a

00:37:03.920 small infant in the room i don't want to hire a nanny to bring to deal with the infant i don't want to

00:37:08.320 put the infant in another room while we're having sex so let's wait until the infant is old enough

00:37:12.800 um that it could be with somebody else or that i feel comfortable leaving it outside the room for

00:37:18.880 a period of time that is a completely reasonable thing to say and i think that consent absolutism

00:37:27.120 removes reasonable conversations from the table i think the thing i have problems with around the way

00:37:33.920 consent is being framed in modern society is that denying consent is treated as a costless

00:37:42.480 activity instead of an activity that needs some level of explanation which allows something to

00:37:49.360 happen like you know for example a stay-at-home wife who isn't really contributing much of anything to a

00:37:56.080 relationship just constantly denying a man consent like permanent consent denial and thinking that the

00:38:04.400 relationship can stay stable and that then if he wants a divorce or he wants to leave or he wants to

00:38:12.240 cheat that he is 100 at fault and there is no culpability upon the person who was denying

00:38:18.880 consent um it is not that i don't think that consent shouldn't be respected absolutely it is that we

00:38:26.480 should not because we respect consent so seriously that we should not act as if denying consent bears some

00:38:36.080 cost i think i guess i'd call it like informed consent which is to say the denial of consent

00:38:43.280 with an explanation that is time-gated or resolvable like i don't want to sleep with you now because

00:38:50.800 i find you unattractive due to your weight gain that's fine because that's you know okay well so

00:38:55.840 lose weight then i'll want to sleep with you again but what were you going to say because you really

00:38:59.360 wanted to say something consent matters also if if someone feels like they're having genuine

00:39:06.400 non-consent with anything in a marriage and that's not necessarily with intimacy it could also be with

00:39:12.880 a partner for example making purchases that are not approved that is a form of infidelity period

00:39:20.960 yeah i wouldn't even say it's a form of infidelity i'd say it's so i do agree that

00:39:25.120 in that sense consent matters so what i'm saying here is feeling like it there is demanding that a

00:39:33.280 person obeys your consent request without consequences for denying consent by that what i mean is if a wife

00:39:45.280 continually declines consent without any real reason that that would be a case where uh a husband would be

00:39:54.320 justified in becoming angry and saying that the wife is violating the assumptions of their marriage

00:40:02.160 in the same way where it is a violation if a woman like takes a bunch of money or spends a bunch of

00:40:08.160 money without the man's consent but it is also a violation if the man never ever grants consent for

00:40:14.640 the woman to splurge on herself yeah i would also say though when you get to a point where relationships

00:40:21.600 involve asking for things like let alone denial just asking for things is being if i always have to

00:40:31.200 ask you for sex something's gone wrong if that's an important thing in our relationship and if you

00:40:38.880 always have to ask me to clean up something's gone wrong one when in an ideal situation relationship

00:40:45.520 requests should be like improv the answer is yes and but also you should be like the ultimate servant

00:40:52.000 to your partner because you are unified with them toward a larger goal you should be anticipating their

00:40:57.440 needs like you said putting them only after god and your children and doing everything you can to make

00:41:03.680 their lives more enjoyable but if they're not doing the same your relationships on thin ice

00:41:09.120 so and that's that's a really great point is that concepts like consent as progressives use the term

00:41:17.520 begin to not make sense in a well-structured relationship because in a well-structured

00:41:23.200 relationship both people generally consider the needs of the other before their own needs i would never

00:41:31.600 question that simone is definitely in almost everything she does during the day always putting my needs

00:41:37.520 before her own and as such i feel comfortable in everything i do always putting her needs before

00:41:43.440 mine so when there is arguments the arguments are often about something that i want to do for her

00:41:51.520 and she feels is unjustified oh i want to splurge on you is this and you're just like no i don't want

00:41:56.880 this are you wanting to splurge on me with something and i'm like no it wouldn't make me happy enough

00:42:01.760 to offset the cost and so we're not going to do that right now no i will say that sometimes

00:42:07.520 i bring things up where i know that i want something that is not in the best collective

00:42:12.720 interests of our family and our those are never things that hurt me it's like you coming to me and

00:42:18.160 saying can i do i have permission to not go to this party it's never like a favor you're doing when

00:42:23.120 it comes to the things for me they are always done and often and this is another thing i think

00:42:27.920 is really important and i would consider a duty of a spouse if you're considering the duties of your

00:42:33.440 relationship it is to notice and think and show appreciation for the things your spouse does

00:42:42.800 without telling you or request and that this appreciation cannot run dry just because your

00:42:51.040 relationship has existed a long time and i also think that's like a meaningful flirtation and dating

00:42:57.120 strategy in general that retard level relationship action is things like your eyes are so pretty you're

00:43:04.880 so beautiful you're so handsome whatever and i tell you gorgeous all the time but that's

00:43:08.800 retard level compliment what i think gives people the most sense of satisfaction the greatest dopamine hit

00:43:16.240 is when people recognize actions that they've taken things for which they actually have responsibility

00:43:22.480 okay women can put a lot of effort into their appearance but then you can recognize wow the

00:43:26.960 way you styled your hair today it's just incredible how to braid your hair that way or but it should be

00:43:31.600 around your actions or wow the way that you immediately anticipated the kids were going to freak out when

00:43:37.600 this thing happened and you made sure that they were okay it just really made me feel fantastic and i can't

00:43:42.480 thank you enough like complimenting actions or complimenting moments so much more meaningful than just

00:43:48.320 compliment or complimenting attributes over which people have no control and haven't put any effort

00:43:52.640 because any anyone even people who actually aren't working that hard feel like they're putting in some

00:43:57.920 kind of effort even if it's getting out of bed or like getting dressed and being recognized for stuff

00:44:02.640 that they personally put energy into gives them much more of a dopamine hit than stuff that they don't

00:44:06.800 feel like they worked on that day yes and yeah no absolutely i a hundred percent agree with you and

00:44:13.040 that's a great way when you're thinking about how do you actually make your partner feel good it's notice

00:44:16.960 the things that they're putting effort into and compliment those things and but it's just also

00:44:22.400 important because if they do something like even if it's it's my wife's duty to do the dishes is no

00:44:27.840 she's choosing to do the dishes and you need to show appreciation for that every time yeah it's one of the

00:44:33.200 things of value that partner offers in the relationship if you don't value that then why on earth should

00:44:39.920 they be putting in the effort yeah and well then they won't feel delight or appreciation now the final

00:44:44.160 thing i'm gonna note here because it was something that i noticed when i was ruminating on the point

00:44:48.400 i had made earlier i was like no it is actually traditional in christian cultures for the very

00:44:54.080 wealthy and most powerful men to have multiple partners and then i thought of an exception it is

00:45:00.080 normal in catholic and orthodox countries it is not normal in protestant countries consider king

00:45:08.160 henry the eights he had to literally have his wives killed to get additional women he had a son

00:45:16.160 with a side chick oh he did yes okay i'm wrong yeah sorry men are men he did he did have side

00:45:23.920 chicks you're right even in protestant countries you had it yeah and the side chick wasn't the problem

00:45:27.920 the problem is that the son was the legitimacy he wanted a legitimate heir yeah all right so even there

00:45:34.080 just always i i love when people appeal to a christian traditionalism that is just a complete

00:45:40.320 fabrication of what actual christian history was like and it's no they're there nice try this was

00:45:47.520 actually more complicated than that which is always interesting to me or they'll be like in the bible

00:45:52.960 it was always one man and one woman and it's it definitely was not you have the case of oh god

00:45:59.200 what's the case i'm thinking of where the guy was too old and so his wife said he could sleep with

00:46:03.840 their slave to have a kid oh yeah yeah that story was always so weird to me yes sarah hagar

00:46:11.760 and abraham literally the source of the abrahamic tradition so it's in all of the abrahamic tradition that

00:46:19.840 that this is not like the most it it is actually really interesting to me and we'll do another episode on

00:46:25.440 this this larp of the christian lifestyle that doesn't match lifestyles in the bible or that are

00:46:33.600 described in the bible but instead matches hollywood's description of a christian in the 1950s

00:46:40.800 which was like never like a real thing and it's just interesting to me that people will say

00:46:46.720 with such conviction these are christian values when they are not the values of the bible or historically

00:46:53.200 christian communities but they are just so convinced that they're christian values and

00:46:58.480 it's baffling to me but it shows you how like cultural consensus works people always want to

00:47:03.520 believe everything is archaic when often it's not one of the episodes will do when i get around to it

00:47:10.640 and i do need to do it because i have too many pro-jewish episodes and i need to do an episode that's

00:47:14.720 going to make people think oh jews aren't going to like this which is on how quickly the jewish

00:47:18.960 religion has evolved recently and that the medieval jewish religion and culture is almost

00:47:25.680 completely disconnected from modern the modern jewish religion i'm dying to hear more about this

00:47:30.560 yeah you keep a lot of of research but here for people who don't believe me for example i will put on

00:47:38.000 a screen right now a picture of a medieval catholic and a picture of a modern catholic now i am going to

00:47:46.160 put on the screen a picture of an ultra conservative medieval jew and a picture of a

00:47:51.600 ultra conservative modern jew and for those who are listening on podcast and don't know what medieval

00:47:57.280 jews looks like they look like they are wearing a go piece as a hat and they are wearing green and

00:48:03.840 it's got like a ball with the top of a hat and you know what modern jews look like they have like

00:48:08.720 long curly hair things and all sorts of other i should note here for anyone who's like oh you're just

00:48:14.480 talking about fashion what does that have to do with religious identity um the episode the reason

00:48:20.240 why it needs the whole episode is actually going to go over all sorts of traditions and things that

00:48:25.680 are core to the religious tradition um and show that uh you know around 50 or more are modern in

00:48:33.440 the same way that like if i'm looking at an amish community and you ask an amish community when was

00:48:37.520 your community founded and they'd be like well it's the death of christ and it's like well i mean

00:48:41.600 but from an outsider's perspective when was your community founded because when i look at amish and

00:48:47.520 i'm like this is what makes you amish um you know you're talking about like the 1800s um so and i also

00:48:54.560 need to note this in the context of i'm not really saying it's a new religion it's more this that in the

00:48:59.840 same way that some languages like when you're looking at language groups uh you will find that some

00:49:06.560 languages are incredibly preserved and change very very little over history and other languages evolve

00:49:13.040 incredibly quickly um and yet because they completely replace the iteration that came before

00:49:20.080 them it makes sense to call them the same language even though they would be completely uninterpretable

00:49:26.080 to people you know maybe even a few hundred years apart um that's sort of what we're talking about

00:49:32.000 here so it's a tricky subject and deserving of a full episode are you looking up medieval jew no i just

00:49:38.400 wanted to say if people are really interested in catholic where there's this particular podcast on

00:49:45.200 catholic fashion that i thought was absolutely fantastic i just think religious fashion is really

00:49:50.960 interesting yeah no no i i think it's really fascinating as well anyway love you today simone you are

00:49:57.520 amazing and i hope our fans are having a wonderful day and that we'll we can get feedback on the

00:50:04.080 lavalier system yeah i'm excited for it love you gorgeous love you too

00:50:13.120 man i'm so happy now you know that feeling at the end of the day when you've eaten all the frogs you've

00:50:19.280 eaten all of them so many frogs how am i coming through by the way say something more hello simone i

00:50:26.000 am excited to be talking to you today yeah sounds not as good as the super high quality mics but at

00:50:33.200 least now you can talk freely

Based Camp - July 16, 2024

Does A Wife Have a Duty to Have ＂Relations＂ With Her Husband？ Conjugal Duties

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