Based Camp - March 13, 2025


Does Gay Conversion Therapy Really Not Work？


Episode Stats


Length

53 minutes

Words per minute

187.80869

Word count

9,963

Sentence count

786

Harmful content

Misogyny

32

sentences flagged

Toxicity

69

sentences flagged

Hate speech

63

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we discuss the controversial topic of gay conversion therapy and whether or not it should be legal in the United States. We also talk about the Supreme Court's upcoming case regarding conversion therapy for LGBTQ+ children.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hello, Simone! Today we are going to be asking the age-old question is, if somebody is gay, can you turn them straight by electrocuting them? 1.00
00:00:11.500 Do you think you should turn gay? 0.99
00:00:14.320 I don't think it works like that. 0.96
00:00:15.900 Okay, well, hot topic's next on the list. Could I turn gay working there? 0.98
00:00:19.220 You can't just magically turn gay. This isn't Degrassi. 0.98
00:00:21.780 Why are you so against turning gay? 0.99
00:00:23.180 Because if you think you turned gay, there's some weird Christian guy who thinks he can electrocute you into turning back. 0.97
00:00:28.660 Like, people think that? 0.99
00:00:30.760 So, hold on. So, actually, I feel like, for anyone who hasn't seen, there's this show in the U.S., The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.
00:00:37.100 It's on Netflix, right? And it's about a girl who grows up in this cult with a guy who lied to her about everything.
00:00:42.620 And when she enters the world, she has to constantly find things and then be like, oh, yeah, I need to check if this was a lie or not.
00:00:50.060 And this happened to me recently around conversion therapy.
00:00:53.380 Just, you know, I think if you grow up in the broadly, like, progressive sphere, the line is, conversion therapy, gay straight conversion therapy doesn't work.
00:01:05.740 And, you know, recently, I found myself reflecting on this and I was like, oh, yeah, but if it did work, they'd still say it doesn't work.
00:01:12.820 Like, they have an ideological reason to need to believe this due to the way that they were framing, like, gayness as an identity. 0.60
00:01:21.800 And what really hit me is when I asked an AI questions about this, it got really angry at me.
00:01:27.240 I don't know if you noticed, but there's certain issues where I'm like, hey, can you just steel man this other perspective?
00:01:32.300 It could not bring itself.
00:01:34.060 Replexity could not bring itself to steel man the other perspective.
00:01:36.940 And this is a really important thing for us to be talking about now specifically, because as of our recording now, this coming Monday, the Supreme Court is going to take up state bans on conversion therapy for LGBTQ plus children based on a Colorado case.
00:01:53.240 So this is actively something that is being discussed.
00:01:58.200 Do you have a religious right to electrocute your children?
00:02:02.060 That is, I'm joking, by the way.
00:02:03.880 What we're going to go over is all of the different types of conversion therapy.
00:02:06.600 The thing that really got me in the AI answer is, I don't know if you guys have ever asked an AI a question, and it gives you parts of the answers that are just obvious and transparent lies.
00:02:15.280 Like, it gave me a list of things that it said, do nothing to change an individual's, you know, sexual expression.
00:02:22.080 And one of those things was castration.
00:02:24.420 And I was like, brother, I'm not, like, brother in Christ. 0.98
00:02:27.280 I'm not saying that we should be castrating gay people. 0.64
00:02:30.000 But it obviously changes their sexual expression. 0.98
00:02:32.800 Yeah.
00:02:34.000 Yeah.
00:02:34.360 And another thing that I just know, because I've done a lot of research on, like, LGBT stuff, is it will say, you know, you cannot change an individual's sexual orientation.
00:02:44.260 And yet anyone who's familiar with, like, trans people just knows that wrong. 0.54
00:02:48.880 About 43% of trans people report changes in their sexual orientation when they go through hormone therapy.
00:02:55.280 Yeah.
00:02:55.620 It was only about 13% experiencing a complete change.
00:02:58.740 But 13% do experience a complete change.
00:03:01.960 Exactly what gay conversion is supposed to achieve. 1.00
00:03:04.940 Now, again, I don't think that many conservatives are, like, that doesn't really solve the problem for most conservatives.
00:03:12.240 But it does show that there is a potential mechanism of action to achieve this.
00:03:17.660 And in addition to that, you have the case of, it would say that, like, certain therapies didn't work.
00:03:23.840 But then I'd ask, well, are these therapies used in other areas?
00:03:27.880 And it was like, oh, yeah, they're also used in, like, phobias in alcohol addiction.
00:03:31.660 And I was like, do they work there?
00:03:33.780 It turns out they don't, mostly.
00:03:35.400 So a lot of this stuff, it was actually right.
00:03:37.340 But it was much more nuanced in how it said they don't in those instances.
00:03:41.320 It was interesting.
00:03:42.520 But I will note here that you can be like, but what about all the studies that say it didn't work?
00:03:46.880 One of the things that was a real red flag for me that goes, well, there used to be a popularly cited study that said that it didn't, that it worked.
00:03:52.960 But even the academic who wrote it had it retracted because it might cause harm.
00:03:59.300 And then I was like, oh, so there were evidence out there.
00:04:02.820 And people could have lost their jobs for publishing that, which shows why you're getting such bias in what's being published.
00:04:08.820 There is one study that's out there right now out of, like, the 36 studies on this that could plausibly work.
00:04:15.340 This one was a 2000 study retrospective self-reports of changes in homosexual orientation, a consumer survey of conversion therapy clients.
00:04:25.180 What I will note as we go over all the data and all the stuff here, if you're like, what's the actual answer to this?
00:04:31.300 There does not appear to be a persistent and reliable way, i.e. the urban monoculture was kind of right on this, to induce a new arousal pattern in an individual.
00:04:42.200 If I am not aroused by women, nothing that happens at gay conversion camp is going to make me aroused by women. 0.98
00:04:51.040 If I am not aroused by men, nothing that happens at a gay conversion camp will make me aroused by men. 1.00
00:04:56.660 Doesn't mean nothing can. 0.55
00:04:59.280 You could, like, try to do a gender reassignment with hormones. 1.00
00:05:02.980 But I think if you're a conservative Christian and you have a problem with same-sex attraction, that is not the pathway that you are interested in taking.
00:05:11.480 You're right.
00:05:12.840 And it doesn't even work all the time.
00:05:14.600 It works, like, 13% of the time and 50% of the time.
00:05:18.380 Basically, given that 50%, you know, have new arousal patterns afterwards, gender reassignment and, like, hormone therapy is, like, re-rolling your character in terms of what arouses you.
00:05:29.540 Yes.
00:05:29.820 Yeah.
00:05:30.120 Yeah.
00:05:30.300 Which is actually the one we've had, I think, different maybe podcasts about this where we talk about how if you're dealing with severe depression,
00:05:37.060 completely changing your identity by also changing your gender and your hormonal profile could successfully kickstart you out of it. 0.90
00:05:44.020 And it's not the fact that you had gender dysmorphia, per se, that changed it.
00:05:49.140 It's the fact that your entire hormonal profile and identity in clothing changed, snapped you out of it.
00:05:54.200 Changing the way that you see yourself and relate to other people is one of the easiest ways to change sort of persistent psychological issues.
00:06:00.220 So, like, we're trying to be as sort of fair-minded on this topic as we can be as we go into the data.
00:06:07.800 However, what is also true, and the left is just lying about this, is while you can't induce a new arousal pattern, there are plenty of ways to suppress an individual's libido and arousal patterns.
00:06:20.960 And we did another video of something like, my husband's not gay, or, like, I would be okay if you, I don't remember what it was, something like that, where we basically say that, like, I'm okay with same-sex attracted individuals deciding that they want to be in cross-sex relationships.
00:06:36.300 I don't think that, like, that's something that we as a society need to freak out about or police them on, and I can understand why an individual might want that.
00:06:44.640 For me, one of the most powerful things I ever read in regards to that was from an Amish kid on Rumspringa, which is, you know, when they leave their family and go live, like, in the secular world for a year, when they go through, like, a bit after puberty, basically, before they decide to come back in the community and decide to be an Amish.
00:07:03.660 And he was saying in it, he, having lived in the secular world now, now recognized, I am a same-sex attracted or gay individual, but I am still going to go back to live in the Amish world, with the point he was making was, even though, like, I understand I can fulfill certain things more easily by continuing to live in the secular world,
00:07:28.180 there was just a greater sense of purpose, of mental well-being, of sort of a life that he really wanted in the future if he went back to the Amish world. 0.92
00:07:37.780 And he saw the having to have sex and have a wife who he wasn't attracted to, part of that is being marginally more challenging, but not worth giving up everything else that came with an Amish life.
00:07:50.860 And in the video game that we're doing now, talking about, like, weird, woke themes, because, you know, you don't say that the LLM game, it's coming along great, really excited, takes place in a post-apocalyptic world, post-fertility collapse world.
00:08:02.720 And one of the early sort of conflicts is, I tried to do an inversion of the typical thing here, which is a young kid wants to go live with the Mormons, and he is same-sex attracted, and he knows that he will have to live a different type of lifestyle.
00:08:22.120 And his mom doesn't want him to go live with the Mormons, being like, but you're same-sex attracted, like, you should stay, live with us, live this lifestyle. 0.97
00:08:30.460 But I thought it was a fun inversion of this particular debate that you see so frequently, and interacting with it, you know, for me, I, like, with all the characters I'm creating, creating interesting interactions and debates that cause the player to look at issues from a different angle.
00:08:47.600 Right.
00:08:47.780 But, okay, so, I'm going to go into this. Anything you wanted to say, Simone?
00:08:53.280 Just to give a little bit of context to why I think you find it often practical that people who are still same-sex attracted get into heterosexual relationships, is that it can be, if you care more about having a family, if you care more about being able to maintain a certain community, it's just a no-brainer.
00:09:12.440 And I think the fact that we live in an age where people put sex lives above family and community is pretty crazy.
00:09:24.180 It is.
00:09:24.920 It is.
00:09:25.340 Your extracurricular sex life is more important than that.
00:09:30.540 Well, I mean, think about what is meant by this.
00:09:33.760 I mean, if you talk about something like the Amish or, like, a conservative Mormon community or a conservative, like, Catholic community, these community identities mean a lot to the people who are part of them.
00:09:44.600 Yeah.
00:09:44.840 And I think that we, in our society, trivialize them as just, you know, seeing them as the oppressive thing that they can be framed as instead of the rever...
00:09:56.000 I mean, you know, for example, if I'm a conservative Catholic and I grew up as a conservative Catholic, even though I'm same-sex attracted, you know, I might believe that, like, you know, the Catholic God exists.
00:10:05.680 And everything said in, like, Catholic theology is real.
00:10:10.360 Right.
00:10:11.280 And yet we treat it like it's a mistake to make that choice.
00:10:15.820 Or the Amish person is like, well, I mean, you know, I'm choosing between this and not necessarily heaven, but the wholesome life I could otherwise live with this community and community support.
00:10:28.940 Yeah.
00:10:29.120 A little more context beyond that, too.
00:10:30.960 Alyssa Grenfell talks about this, actually.
00:10:32.760 Many people who grow up in these more conservative religious communities, where people, for example, know that they're gay, but still marry someone of the opposite sex, they sort of grow up thinking that sex is not going to be pleasurable for them at all.
00:10:46.700 Like, Alyssa Grenfell talks in detail about how her OBGYN at BYU, when she was about to get married, was like, well, you know, sex is painful for many women.
00:10:56.480 And she actually gave her this, like, dilator to use, like, before she had sex for the first time to try to make, like, I think maybe to break her hymen, like, to make it less painful. 0.99
00:11:06.780 Like, it's just not framed.
00:11:07.820 Like, they're not given, they're not expecting at any point in their lives sex to be amazing.
00:11:12.540 Which is, of course, is very different from what the, that other conservative influencer got.
00:11:16.540 The, the, oh, what, what are they, what, God, what are they called?
00:11:19.720 Jesus.
00:11:20.140 It was these two Mormon women. 1.00
00:11:22.240 No, no, no, they're not Mormon.
00:11:23.000 They're not, those aren't Mormon. 0.96
00:11:24.320 Jesus.
00:11:24.420 Oh, yeah, no, they were part of some conservative.
00:11:26.200 But, yeah, oh, my gosh. 0.92
00:11:27.420 So, well, they, they grew up certainly expecting sex to be amazing.
00:11:30.680 Not all conservative religious groups do.
00:11:32.400 Girl defined. 0.66
00:11:33.420 Girl, girl defined.
00:11:34.920 Our episode, how girl defined ruined an entire generation of women. 1.00
00:11:37.800 But I actually think that this is really bad.
00:11:39.420 No, no, but, but my point is, many additional communities, including many subsets of the LDS church, apparently, basically never expect sex to be amazing.
00:11:49.760 And many just never have a satisfying sex life and never thought that was important.
00:11:53.920 And yet they still end up having tons of kids.
00:11:55.640 So, how can it be a surprise to someone of, like, oh, well, I'm not attracted to this person, but we're going to have sex anyway.
00:12:02.060 Like, just, you know, whether it's being sexually oriented toward a specific sex or just expecting sex to be pleasurable.
00:12:10.820 Like, if you're not even expecting sex to be pleasurable, then it doesn't really matter.
00:12:13.940 Yeah, I actually think that's more culturally healthy.
00:12:17.000 And that's why we did the video on Girl Defined.
00:12:19.040 Is that Girl Defined maintained the idea of chastity until marriage. 1.00
00:12:22.460 And then you would get married. 0.86
00:12:23.560 And then sex would be the most amazing thing because sex is better in marriage. 0.65
00:12:27.180 And I'm like, that's not something you should ever be teaching someone.
00:12:29.580 It's like, sex is better because you wait to have it in marriage. 0.84
00:12:32.300 It's like, as somebody who's had a lot of sex, that's, like, objectively not true.
00:12:36.420 Like, yeah. 0.99
00:12:37.920 Sick burn, Malcolm.
00:12:39.940 No, I'm not saying that. 0.98
00:12:41.080 What I'm saying is, as a guy, for example, if you're sleeping with a lot of people, like, the pleasure that you get from that sex is going to be, I would suppose, easier to access.
00:12:55.980 Just keep digging, Malcolm.
00:12:57.860 Hey, everybody.
00:12:58.680 Today, we're going to teach you how to dig yourself a hole.
00:13:01.220 To begin with, you need yourself a pair of very durable work boots.
00:13:06.200 Skill took, preferably.
00:13:07.880 No, just because it's multiple people.
00:13:09.880 Just because it's multiple people.
00:13:11.140 Well, anyway, I think the important note, though, is that, yes, the Girl Defined message that they grew up with was very toxic.
00:13:18.280 But it messed up their head because they get into marriage and then it's not that great.
00:13:21.160 I'm saying it was really toxic.
00:13:22.540 And I'm saying one thing that, I love Alyssa Grenfell.
00:13:24.980 She is an ex-Mormon YouTuber and TikToker. 0.62
00:13:28.400 She wrote a book about leaving the Mormon church where I really disagree with a lot of her episodes.
00:13:33.540 Like, I just watched a really long episode she did on Mormon funerals where she's like, oh, isn't it horrible that they restrict this and they restrict that?
00:13:40.860 Like, you're not supposed to have a Mormon funeral that lasts more than, like, the church service shouldn't be more than an hour.
00:13:45.740 And I'm like, yes, thank you.
00:13:47.080 They're like, you know, just for considering the people there.
00:13:49.540 Yeah.
00:13:49.740 Like, let's just keep, you know, keep it going.
00:13:51.460 Don't get too emotional.
00:13:52.780 Like, think on the positive things.
00:13:54.200 You'll be reunited in the afterlife.
00:13:55.640 All this, right?
00:13:56.340 And she's like, can you believe?
00:13:57.580 They're not letting people grieve.
00:13:58.760 They're making it too fast.
00:13:59.740 And I'm like, nope, that's good.
00:14:00.900 They're not letting people spiral.
00:14:02.060 Are we making that techno-puritan thing?
00:14:04.300 Funerals can't last over an hour?
00:14:06.040 Just no funerals.
00:14:07.200 Good funerals.
00:14:07.740 No, we should build death rituals because it's really important to have death.
00:14:12.220 My point, though, is that Alyssa Grenfell points to the fact that, oh, can you believe that they are teaching young women that sex isn't going to be enjoyable?
00:14:21.000 And can you believe that they restrict funerals in this way?
00:14:23.760 And can you believe they do this and that without realizing this is a Chesterton's fence issue?
00:14:28.300 Like, there is a reason why those things actually have benefits for the culture at large, even though they appear to cause, in many cases, a lack of hedonic pleasure in the immediate term.
00:14:39.380 Yeah, what you're pointing out here, and I think that this is really valuable, is a lot of people hated how sex-negative their religious traditions were, quote-unquote, negative, like had a negative view of sex and sexuality and sexual indulgence.
00:14:51.900 And they thought that by ripping out that sex-negativity and replacing it with sex-positivity, but staying Christian, staying whatever, that they were creating, like, a better form of, like, Protestantism.
00:15:05.200 And you saw a lot of churches do this and thinking they were being so hip.
00:15:07.820 But in reality, there's a reason for the sex-negativity that actually leads to more hedonic, you could almost argue, pleasure for the average person within that community because they're making better choices.
00:15:17.400 And, for example, choosing their partner based on arousal, choosing their partner based on – but great aside here.
00:15:24.720 I just want to – like, I just think that the best religions do set expectations low. 1.00
00:15:28.460 And, frankly, if you find a partner with whom you have a lot of good sexual chemistry, it's going to happen.
00:15:33.020 Just consider Queen Victoria, right?
00:15:34.620 Like, the most, like, straight-laced, like, everything in Albert.
00:15:38.400 And yet, I mean, they had nine kids.
00:15:39.820 And they – she was into him.
00:15:42.480 She was very into him, although the first meeting, it was all about the parent.
00:15:46.020 Anyway, keep going.
00:15:47.160 Sorry.
00:15:47.880 Well, I'd also point out for people, one, keep in mind that sexuality on average works very different in men and women.
00:15:53.740 So the idea of saying to a woman telling a guy, you can, you know, change what arouses you or, you know, what you're going to be interested in is quite a different thing. 0.59
00:16:05.820 Like, and I think we see this a lot.
00:16:07.400 The people who run a lot of these, like, sexual reassignment clinics are women may not understand how much more set in stone male arousal patterns are than female arousal patterns, which I think are much more flexible around stuff like – well, we know from the data that they're more flexible around stuff like this.
00:16:25.520 And I'm saying this just to start, like, if you're watching this and you're a straight man, like, what could somebody do to get you to sleep with a guy?
00:16:34.700 Like, seriously.
00:16:37.080 Like, for me, it would be really, really hard to get me to become aroused by a guy.
00:16:47.200 Like, I just don't think it could easily happen.
00:16:50.220 Like, not if you electrocuted me, not if you electrocuted me every time I didn't get turned on by a guy.
00:16:55.060 Not if you had me look at pictures of naked men every day for, you know –
00:17:00.100 And these are 100% all things that have been done in gay conversion therapy. 0.74
00:17:04.680 Yeah.
00:17:05.280 Like, look at these sexy woman pictures. 1.00
00:17:07.400 Are you not convinced now?
00:17:08.820 It's just done by people who are so freaking straight.
00:17:10.960 They're like, oh, I can't control myself.
00:17:13.540 Yeah, yeah.
00:17:14.300 They'll not say no to this one.
00:17:15.540 Oh, my God.
00:17:16.100 But I'd actually think that that would get me more grossed out by women. 1.00
00:17:20.320 100%, yeah, because then you're going to be like, why – it's like being exposed to a smell.
00:17:24.740 And you're like, listen, I'm just not into that smell.
00:17:26.320 And they're like, no, smell it again.
00:17:27.580 Inhale deeper.
00:17:28.400 And then you suddenly are like, I think I'm going to throw up.
00:17:30.720 Like, this is –
00:17:31.180 Yeah, I'm being conditioned to hate – like, have a visceral negative reaction to this smell now.
00:17:36.720 100%, yeah.
00:17:37.620 They just make you gayer.
00:17:38.860 You're just getting gayer.
00:17:39.940 Getting gayer and gayer.
00:17:40.240 Another thing that's important for people to remember is if you go to our book, The Pragmatics Guide to Sexuality,
00:17:44.480 we lay out a really long argument that disgust is the same emotion as arousal.
00:17:49.960 It's just operating with a negative modifier.
00:17:52.180 Not going to go into long argument here for this.
00:17:55.340 But what it means is that when somebody has inverted sexual patterns, like, say, a gay man, for example, 0.77
00:18:01.640 they are much more likely to have a disgust response to naked female bodies. 0.68
00:18:07.920 So it's important to keep in mind that they might actually have an active aversion to sleeping with a woman,
00:18:12.880 which is different than just not being aroused.
00:18:15.480 And that can make things significantly harder.
00:18:17.700 But that can be mollified through many of the things that mollify arousal, which we'll get into in a bit.
00:18:25.000 Okay, so let's start here.
00:18:26.240 What goes on at these, right?
00:18:27.800 You know, is it But I'm a Cheerleader for people?
00:18:31.000 I used to love that show.
00:18:31.820 It was my favorite movie growing up.
00:18:34.300 It's about a girl who gets sent to one of these.
00:18:36.800 Very funny if you haven't seen it.
00:18:38.020 I actually suggest it.
00:18:39.580 It's like an indie film.
00:18:40.900 Anyway, psychotherapeutic methods.
00:18:45.220 So talk therapy is common here.
00:18:46.780 This is the most common form.
00:18:47.860 It includes cognitive, behavioral, and interpersonal therapies.
00:18:50.920 Some practitioners use hypnosis to alter thought patterns related to same-sex attraction as well.
00:18:56.680 Just like picturing someone sleeping on a couch and the therapist being like,
00:19:02.320 you're not gay. 0.99
00:19:03.980 I hypnotized your son to be into chicks. 0.99
00:19:06.740 Boobs are cool. 0.98
00:19:08.940 Oh my God, no.
00:19:10.540 So I was like, okay, so what does this mean exactly, right?
00:19:13.940 So identify and changing thought patterns.
00:19:16.460 Therapists may try to help individuals recognize and alter their thought patterns around same-sex attraction,
00:19:21.820 often by reframing these attractions as unhealthy or undesirable.
00:19:25.580 This seems like a giant mistake to do.
00:19:28.880 For people who aren't aware, if you try to get somebody to not think about something or frame a certain thought as sinful,
00:19:36.960 you get these patterns where people just like will like compulsively think that thing,
00:19:40.720 and they'll think it much more, and they'll feel like negative thoughts when they're thinking about it.
00:19:44.960 Like teachings around sinful thoughts are likely like really deleterious if this is something that you want to handle.
00:19:50.760 It's much better to be like, okay, I understand this is part of who you are.
00:19:54.960 Maybe even it makes sense to continue to masturbate to this stuff, but I wouldn't like, what?
00:20:00.480 Like teaching you to try to avoid and see these thoughts as sinful?
00:20:04.600 This doesn't mean that you can't change people to change how they're thinking about their environment.
00:20:08.460 So by this, what I mean is you could, for example, work with somebody to see an arousing thing is not necessarily a mandate for action,
00:20:17.060 as it is seen within some parts of progressive culture.
00:20:20.320 You know, just because this arouses you doesn't mean you need to do X,
00:20:23.860 or you don't need to think about this as controlling your identity.
00:20:26.760 That could be really helpful in these sorts of therapy, but not, I think, probably everything they're doing.
00:20:32.320 Role playing and behavior modification.
00:20:34.900 Some therapists use role playing to teach stereotypical masculine or feminine behaviors. 0.91
00:20:38.920 Well, they do this in, but I'm a cheerleader.
00:20:40.660 The movie you're referencing about a lesbian girl who was sent to one of these conversion camps.
00:20:44.720 And I think they all, like the girls will have to wear pink, and the boys all have to wear blue, and they have to.
00:20:48.140 The girls have to like do like mopping and like vacuuming. 1.00
00:20:51.720 Yeah.
00:20:51.960 And the boys have to do like play fighting.
00:20:53.340 And there's that great scene where in the play fighting ring, there's like a cutout of one soldier on his knees,
00:20:57.820 and the other has a gun to his head.
00:20:59.220 But it's like stereotype, like boy blue.
00:21:02.760 What?
00:21:04.120 And you slip it in.
00:21:05.980 And out.
00:21:07.360 Who wants to go down with me?
00:21:13.100 Come on! 0.61
00:21:19.940 This almost certainly does nothing.
00:21:25.500 If anything, I'm quite...
00:21:27.720 But it's funny, so...
00:21:29.540 It's funny, but it almost certainly, I'd say, gets individuals more into their gender, into their existing like gay or lesbian identity,
00:21:38.340 because you abstract these gender roles into something that feels unnatural for the individual.
00:21:44.100 And you say, this is what a natural gender role is. 1.00
00:21:47.700 But because they're not enjoying it, and it's not, you know, natural in that context.
00:21:52.600 I mean, you've made it an artificial thing in this context.
00:21:54.780 They then think, oh, this isn't for me.
00:21:57.400 Like, this, I am not straight.
00:21:59.340 Or I would be liking the play fighting, or the vacuuming, or the other stereotypical women roles. 1.00
00:22:05.340 Exploring childhood experiences, practitioners might explore an individual's childhood experiences,
00:22:10.680 suggesting that same-sex attraction is a result of past trauma or family dynamics.
00:22:14.680 One, it's not.
00:22:16.180 Like, there's just...
00:22:17.340 This is an area where, like, I'm not worried about the data.
00:22:19.960 Like, it is not.
00:22:22.040 Psychotherapy nonsense.
00:22:23.340 What did your mother do to you? 0.97
00:22:25.540 Yeah, because of stuff.
00:22:26.260 Well, and I think generally, almost any form of psychotherapy or psychological talk to help somebody.
00:22:34.540 This used to be a field that I worked in.
00:22:35.800 People, I'm not, like, out of nowhere.
00:22:37.580 I actually had memorized the entire DSM at one point.
00:22:40.680 I'm that much of a nerd about this stuff.
00:22:42.740 For people who don't know, the DSM's, like, this thick.
00:22:44.660 It's, like, an insane thing to have memorized it.
00:22:46.900 But I wanted to be cool.
00:22:48.940 That was what I thought the cool kids did.
00:22:51.160 That's how much of a nerd I was.
00:22:53.060 But anyway, if somebody's doing, like, a what happened to you in your childhood that caused something, that person is not a therapist.
00:23:00.700 That is a cult.
00:23:01.960 That is not a real thing.
00:23:03.460 The reason why people do that is to help break your connection with your support network, which is your parent and birth culture.
00:23:10.520 And then that can be used to build dependency on an individual.
00:23:13.500 This is why if you go to something like a Scientologist meeting, I've gone to them before.
00:23:18.460 They'll be like, okay, what?
00:23:19.580 Like, that's the first thing they'll ask you.
00:23:21.620 So why therapists used to do this before they realized how bad it was, and why it's reemerged was in some of the hokier parts of therapy.
00:23:30.800 And some people, like, freak out on us on it because they've read books by individuals like, say, Erica Commissar, who's like, oh, all this stuff, relation children to their parents.
00:23:41.400 And if you actually look at, like, she's a great person, but her beliefs around, like, the psychological schools that she finds compelling are, like, straight up Freudian.
00:23:54.740 It's like, she's like, I'm influenced by Freudian psychology.
00:23:57.740 Like, this is not, this is a, I'm not going to say it's, like, evil or wrong or anything like that, but it is a theological position, I guess I'd say.
00:24:05.400 It's not bound by, like, a realistic mechanism.
00:24:10.420 Yeah, but you would argue, even if we're calling it a cult or a culture, that it doesn't produce great outcomes.
00:24:16.300 So, it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't, it's not, it's not based on what I would call, like, there's different ways that you can relate to the mind of something like this.
00:24:28.960 And I would put hers in, like, like, if somebody's doing, like, Kabbalistic therapy or something like that, I'd be like, okay, but that's, like, a religious therapy. 0.66
00:24:37.120 Like, you understand.
00:24:37.940 Most people would be like, yeah, I understand that.
00:24:39.720 This belief that all of this stuff that happens when you're super young is super important to your adult life, it's just not that important.
00:24:45.300 Unless it's, like, really big.
00:24:46.800 Like, you can, like, traumatize a kid, for sure. 0.88
00:24:49.000 Like, can you traumatize them into being gay? 0.99
00:24:52.880 Probably not, unless you've done some, like, really serious stuff. 0.98
00:24:57.580 Well, you could, you could give them hormones. 1.00
00:25:00.800 Fear around sleeping with the opposite gender. 1.00
00:25:02.940 You could give them hormones and mess them up that way. 1.00
00:25:05.420 Oh, you could do that, yeah.
00:25:07.260 And parents do, so.
00:25:09.740 Yeah, parents do, but the, which would change gender of primary attraction, you're right about that.
00:25:14.320 Could, which could.
00:25:15.780 Could, could.
00:25:17.100 But, and again, here, I'm not saying that nothing that happens to you in your childhood matters.
00:25:21.280 It can matter, but it needs to be pretty extreme to matter.
00:25:24.960 It's not, like, general, like, how much was my mom home has a huge difference.
00:25:29.940 Your mom is, like, broadly non-abusive and you have somebody caring for you.
00:25:35.160 The difference is not that big.
00:25:37.800 As we can see, when kids grow up in single-father households, they don't do that much differently than parents who grow up in two-parents' households.
00:25:43.000 Which is usually because if they're with a father, that's the more responsible person.
00:25:46.440 And so from that, we know a lot of the research on people who grow up in single-parent households or, or other sorts of disruptive households.
00:25:53.180 There are confounding issues there.
00:25:54.800 Basically, in the United States, if a father is getting the kids, he is so exceptionally better than the mother, then it'd throw things off. 0.65
00:26:02.140 But what it shows is that if you get a good parent, it's like the same way that the studies that show that, like, when, when gay people raise kids, the kids turn out better often than when straight people raise them.
00:26:11.040 And that's mostly an effect of just how hard it is to get kids as a gay couple.
00:26:14.840 That doesn't necessarily indicate, but, but, but this is what I mean is you have to go through, like, tons and tons of screening to get kids as a gay couple, at least when a lot of the studies were done.
00:26:22.400 I don't know if it's still the case, but I think it is.
00:26:24.440 I mean, my understanding is adoption is astronomically difficult right now.
00:26:28.000 Yeah.
00:26:28.220 So I imagine it's still the case.
00:26:30.260 Okay, so then aversion therapy.
00:26:31.560 This involves associating same-sex attractions with unpleasant stimuli, such as shocks, nausea, or physical discomfort to create negative associations.
00:26:39.200 It's like remembering, but I'm a cheerleader when they shock her.
00:26:41.680 Yeah.
00:26:42.100 Every time.
00:26:42.720 Yeah.
00:26:43.340 Does this work?
00:26:44.640 Now, of course, you know, the AI at first was like, well, obviously this can't fix sexuality, but then I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:26:49.500 Is aversion therapy used in any other place in psychology these days?
00:26:52.440 Like, because, like, obviously it won't say that it works for sexuality, but doesn't work for anything else.
00:26:56.060 And it's like, well, it's used in addiction treatment.
00:26:57.760 It's like, okay, so what?
00:26:58.460 It is?
00:26:59.220 Oh, it is.
00:27:00.400 So aversion therapy can lead to short-term reduction in substance use, but long-term efficacy is debated.
00:27:05.720 Basically, it doesn't have long-term efficacy.
00:27:08.200 Oh, okay.
00:27:08.760 So it doesn't work.
00:27:10.300 A-phobias, again, it's been shown to have some short-term utility, but does not appear to have long-term utility.
00:27:17.880 Same with anxiety behavior.
00:27:19.540 So it's used in self-harm behaviors.
00:27:21.580 Aversion therapy has been used to reduce self-harming behaviors, such as cutting, by associating these players with unpleasant stimuli.
00:27:27.580 But I don't get, isn't, like, cutting the unpleasant stimuli?
00:27:31.400 If you're just giving someone, like, an additional unpleasant stimuli, like...
00:27:35.880 We just made cutting plus.
00:27:37.280 Congratulations.
00:27:38.420 Upgrade.
00:27:39.240 Cutting plus.
00:27:39.640 New mode activated.
00:27:41.940 Cutting a premium version.
00:27:44.180 Yeah.
00:27:45.080 Are we going to talk about what does work?
00:27:47.000 Not for changing orientation, but for at least reducing. 0.70
00:27:49.940 Yeah, well, so they then mentioned medical methods.
00:27:53.660 So hormone and steroidal therapies have been attempted.
00:27:56.960 These are, it's said, these are sometimes used under the belief that hormonal imbalances contribute to sexual orientation or gender identity.
00:28:03.240 I love it.
00:28:03.560 It says this as if this is not true.
00:28:05.520 Like, your hormones absolutely determine your, you know, sexual identity.
00:28:11.080 That's why you're changing.
00:28:11.500 This is, like, extremely well attested just based on the way that women's arousal patterns and even interests in different types of male dynamics change throughout their cycle.
00:28:22.080 Like, even within one person.
00:28:24.040 The problem is, is there don't appear to be, like, good studies on this.
00:28:27.700 So, like, if I was somebody who, like, personally absolutely wanted to attempt to change my arousal patterns, I would probably do some hormonal experimentation, but it's just not well studied.
00:28:38.920 Like, we know from trans individuals plausibly it can change how arousal patterns activate, but I'd imagine you really need to do something that extreme to get a change in patterns. 1.00
00:28:49.620 And that, like, if I'm a gay man and I just take more testosterone or something, I'm just going to be even more turned on by men.
00:28:56.080 That would be my thought as the main outcome of that.
00:28:59.700 With women, there might be more stuff that you can do in regards to this, but basically the answer here is not enough data to know. 1.00
00:29:06.320 Chemical castration.
00:29:07.420 In some extreme cases, this involves using drugs to suppress sexual desire. 0.81
00:29:11.580 And I thought it was so funny when I was thinking, I was like, oh, it's so wild that when I was young, the fear is that, you know, conservatives would come and take away, like, the young, like, tomboy-y lesbian girl and chemically castrate them.
00:29:26.640 And now those same drugs are being given to that same population by far lefties under the guise of puberty blockers and trans stuff.
00:29:34.740 So, that is wild.
00:29:36.540 It does change sections.
00:29:37.440 I mean, I don't think anyone should be doing this, kid.
00:29:40.280 That's my opinion.
00:29:41.580 But, like, it does, you know, work in that it does lower arousal patterns, I suppose.
00:29:49.380 And then that got me thinking.
00:29:50.340 I was like, okay, well, suppose I just want to, like, lower my arousal patterns in general so I'm not as tempted, right?
00:29:55.320 I was like, what can do that, right?
00:29:57.820 Because obviously things can do that.
00:29:59.360 Like, every antidepressant says, like, I don't lower your arousal patterns.
00:30:03.360 So, anti-androgens can, medications like Kipro-Ectanur and Endicor can reduce testosterone levels and lower sex drive.
00:30:11.400 They're sometimes used in cases of hypersexuality and treatment of sex offenders, so they probably work on a regular person.
00:30:16.400 Or you can just be unhealthy.
00:30:17.660 Dietary adjustments.
00:30:18.440 So, for example, soy products, you could become a little sore boy.
00:30:23.280 High intake may lower testosterone levels.
00:30:24.940 Greasy foods will affect sperm production and libido.
00:30:28.060 Refined carbohydrates and excess alcohol consumption all may help.
00:30:32.100 Now, I don't know because alcohol consumption would lower your ability to suppress the libido.
00:30:36.980 So, it might lower libido, but also lower your ability to contain whatever was there.
00:30:41.500 And don't exercise.
00:30:42.740 That'll also help lower your libido. 1.00
00:30:44.200 Really?
00:30:45.400 That's interesting.
00:30:46.780 And I heard that before.
00:30:47.680 Oh, no, but if you exercise too much, apparently it can lower libido.
00:30:50.540 Like, when you did when you were younger and you ended up losing your blood.
00:30:53.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:54.780 Oh, because your body thinks you're, like, migrating and starving.
00:30:58.320 Before I go to the last one, I would argue, like, if I wanted to do this, right?
00:31:03.460 Naltrexone is an absolute wonder drug.
00:31:05.380 I was just thinking that.
00:31:07.100 But it would just make sex not fun.
00:31:08.740 It wouldn't make you interested.
00:31:10.240 Well, it would make it marginally less fun.
00:31:11.900 So, I take enough naltrexone so that I'm only a little addicted to alcohol.
00:31:17.080 I didn't want to give up my alcohol addiction entirely.
00:31:20.280 This is not the way you're supposed to use it.
00:31:22.340 But it actually has, like, a bunch of other, like, positive side effects if you take naltrexone.
00:31:27.440 Yeah, like, this is not super well documented, but it may have made him significantly more immune to COVID.
00:31:33.740 Yeah.
00:31:33.920 Yeah, because I never got COVID, and I always wondered why.
00:31:36.800 And I was reading a study once, and it was like, oh, low-delsinaltrexone appears to create immunity to COVID in some people.
00:31:43.160 I was like, that's crazy.
00:31:44.300 But it has, like, a bunch of other benefits because, you know, now I, you know, I actually stopped checking Facebook, like, entirely.
00:31:51.820 Yeah, I think it's also because Facebook got boring.
00:31:54.360 It makes you less addicted to social media.
00:31:56.260 It affects those pathways.
00:31:57.560 It can be useful for gambling.
00:31:59.080 It can be useful for anything that's using the opioid pathway to sort of force behavior.
00:32:02.820 Yeah, food, sex, exercise, gambling, anything but smoking, pretty much, right?
00:32:07.180 Yeah, but what's important is that you take it, and then you do the thing. 0.99
00:32:11.960 So you'd have to, like, take it and masturbate to gay porn, and then not be interested in masturbating to gay porn as much within a few weeks of doing that. 0.99
00:32:18.900 You can take it at low doses if you're like, I still want to enjoy this. 0.99
00:32:22.500 I just don't want to enjoy it so much that it's distracting or causes unhealthy behavior, which is, I wanted a little unhealthy behavior with alcohol.
00:32:31.280 I was like, I don't actually want to be a teetotaler, but, like, I also don't want to die.
00:32:35.840 And I found a happy medium.
00:32:37.200 I test myself all the time now, and I'm not having any issues.
00:32:40.220 I even got my liver scanned, and it's totally down to a normal size here.
00:32:44.740 It looks like a normal liver.
00:32:45.640 And so I – which it wasn't for a while.
00:32:48.720 I actually had major problems at one point, which is when I decided I needed to look at this seriously and do something about this.
00:32:55.540 But, I mean, how is that decision particularly different?
00:32:58.180 Like, I was prone to addiction to alcohol or prone to, like, really wanting alcohol because of my genetics, right?
00:33:08.200 A person might be prone to same-sex attraction because of something that they can't control.
00:33:12.660 I didn't control that I had a preference for alcohol, and yet I am able to say, and therefore, despite that, despite me not choosing this desire, I am choosing to suppress this desire or work to engage with this desire in a fashion that doesn't interfere with other things I want from life.
00:33:34.780 Yeah, you're rising above.
00:33:36.180 And everything like that.
00:33:38.120 That's not considered weird.
00:33:39.880 But if I do that for, like, eating too much with, like, the Haze movement, then it's considered weird.
00:33:44.280 I've always thought – Haze is an even better example of this.
00:33:46.620 Like, I control my alcohol, or I work to do that, and they don't work to control their food.
00:33:52.020 They're like eating too much.
00:33:52.460 No, no, no, no, no.
00:33:54.100 Ozempic.
00:33:55.000 Ozempic is the naltrexone of food.
00:33:58.460 People are totally into that.
00:33:59.800 Yeah, so you could use naltrexone to work on this.
00:34:04.420 What you pointed out in the Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality was you could also just overdose on it.
00:34:10.020 You can also overdose.
00:34:11.100 That should work.
00:34:12.000 So you do appear to be able to reduce sexual desire of specific varieties by overindulging in them.
00:34:19.040 Yeah. 0.99
00:34:19.320 So, like, the best gay conversion camps would be, like, quarterly gay orgies. 0.98
00:34:25.920 Well, I mean, I sometimes wonder if those didn't happen historically. 0.99
00:34:31.000 Yeah, you just got it out of your system.
00:34:33.020 I mean, listen, I mean, if I were an actually responsible player in the space, and I actually wanted to help these poor Christian young men and maybe women just, like, get over it and, like, go back to the real world and feel normal, this would be the right thing to do. 0.97
00:34:49.360 It wouldn't, the families wouldn't want to know about it, but if you want to, like, really reduce their desire, this would be the right thing to do.
00:34:56.960 Well, I mean, that might actually be something that's happening.
00:34:59.600 So, you know, I can't talk about my own experience, again, not slept with a guy, at something like the Bohemian Grove, but it has been reported that I've gone in various things. 0.98
00:35:09.920 So I can say, like, at least I've gone, I can't say any more about the extent of my connection to that, but I can talk about somebody who did go on the record about their experiences there, which was Richard Nixon, and he called it the gayest fucking place on earth. 0.95
00:35:22.920 He actually used a worse word than that, but you can imagine what he said. 0.97
00:35:25.940 Oh, yes, he didn't use the F word.
00:35:28.340 And so it's an all-male retreat for, like, elite conservative men, and could it have been if Richard Nixon's understanding of it was accurate? 0.95
00:35:37.620 Could it have been a place where a lot of gay people went and slept together? 0.98
00:35:41.540 Obviously, that wouldn't be everyone there. 0.63
00:35:42.680 There's a lot of other reasons to go to a retreat without women. 1.00
00:35:46.120 But when I look at throughout history, the all-male secret societies that elite conservatives went to, and knowing quotes like Richard Nixon talking about one of the things that people who already had this arousal pattern at these specific events may have overindulged in, that they may have served some utility for that.
00:36:11.620 And that's absolutely fascinating.
00:36:13.700 To fund Barry, yeah.
00:36:16.120 Does that make them more satanic?
00:36:17.700 Who knows?
00:36:18.440 Doesn't it make them more progressive and normal?
00:36:21.600 Yeah, who knows?
00:36:22.240 What I can tell is somebody who's, like, gone to all the actual secret society stuff.
00:36:25.860 Like, the stuff that people have on their records is, like, so much tamer than anyone thinks it is.
00:36:30.060 Yeah, but also, like, their insinuations of what could be worse are so off.
00:36:36.400 They're so off.
00:36:37.660 They're so off about, like, where the bad decisions are made behind closed doors and where the...
00:36:43.660 Yeah.
00:36:44.180 And what the really crazy outlandish stuff is.
00:36:47.960 It's not what you think it is.
00:36:49.900 Well, yeah.
00:36:50.340 And a lot of these organizations have been taken over by wokes. 1.00
00:36:52.700 Like, Skull and Bones was totally taken over by wokes. 1.00
00:36:55.160 We should probably do an episode on that one day.
00:36:56.660 You know, I guess a lot of people wouldn't have a lot of connections in there.
00:36:58.920 But yeah, Skull and Bones...
00:37:00.240 And it's even in, like, the media now.
00:37:01.800 Like, the media has...
00:37:02.600 I'm not releasing private information here.
00:37:04.400 I don't want to get in trouble.
00:37:05.420 That's why I'm just, like, being like...
00:37:06.640 But yeah, Skull and Bones, totally taken over by the wokes. 1.00
00:37:09.160 And I can say that I think the culture war has touched all of these types of locations.
00:37:15.980 And typically, the older a place is, the easier and more bureaucratic it is, the easier it
00:37:21.500 was for woke individuals to sort of get their teeth into it and then basically prevent it
00:37:26.600 from serving anything close to its historic function.
00:37:29.700 Which is why we run our own secret societies basically now when we go to cities and stuff
00:37:33.620 like that.
00:37:34.060 And we invite people who are, like, influential in that city.
00:37:37.560 And I'll note here that these are not, like, fan meetings.
00:37:40.040 Sometimes fans have reached out and been like, I've heard you're meeting with people.
00:37:42.400 It's like, yes, because all of these people have jobs that...
00:37:44.520 Because it's not, like, for anyone who watches our podcast.
00:37:46.800 But anyway, thoughts before I go into the final stuff here.
00:37:49.340 The faith-based methods.
00:37:52.360 No, proceed.
00:37:53.460 Oh, you mean we're going to talk about faith-based methods now?
00:37:56.620 Well, yeah.
00:37:56.960 I was just going to say the faith-based methods are prayer and spiritual counseling.
00:37:59.480 These methods often rely on religious beliefs.
00:38:01.940 They view same-sex attraction as sinful or abnormal.
00:38:03.620 They may include anti-gay slurs and prayers.
00:38:07.000 You know, I don't think that this is going to be very effective.
00:38:09.940 If anything, I think it's just going to focus the person's attention on these issues.
00:38:13.060 And then exorcisms.
00:38:14.400 In some cases, exorcisms.
00:38:15.880 Oh, okay.
00:38:16.880 Which, that actually could work.
00:38:19.440 Weirdly.
00:38:19.940 I'm going to say, because an exorcism could be similar to, like...
00:38:23.860 Going trans.
00:38:25.020 Like, really just being like, I've been...
00:38:26.960 I'm new.
00:38:27.580 I'm a different person.
00:38:28.540 It's gone.
00:38:28.800 Yeah, but they could see themselves as a new person enough that it might change the arousal pattern.
00:38:33.920 I don't...
00:38:35.120 Like, I wouldn't say it...
00:38:36.020 It could help them contextualize the residual arousal patterns that they feel as remnants of demonic possession.
00:38:45.540 And therefore not act on it.
00:38:47.700 And in general, not lean into them.
00:38:49.680 Because I think there's also, like...
00:38:51.300 While we don't have a lot of control over our sex drives and areas of orientation,
00:38:56.200 I do think that you can lean into something and you can lean out of something.
00:38:59.920 You can make it a bigger thing.
00:39:01.360 Or you can choose to play it down.
00:39:03.780 And that might encourage playing it down.
00:39:08.720 Yeah.
00:39:09.220 And so, broadly speaking, I think that the best thing to do...
00:39:13.580 Like, if you actually...
00:39:14.600 If this was a big problem for you and conflicted with your faith and the way you wanted to live your life,
00:39:19.820 something like naltrexone, I think, would be the safest way to address this.
00:39:25.180 I think a...
00:39:25.920 Well, especially if you're trying to reduce what you see to be problematic behavior that you don't want to have anymore.
00:39:31.040 But it's not going to make you want to do something that you...
00:39:33.500 Yeah, it's only if you want to get rid of the behavior, right?
00:39:36.460 Like, if you want to reduce these impulses, indulge in them while on naltrexone...
00:39:41.660 Yes, but I think the bigger thing is you can't make yourself want something that you don't want but wish you wanted.
00:39:48.020 Yeah.
00:39:48.480 And I'd point out here...
00:39:49.600 Now, I'm going to say something crazy.
00:39:50.640 I'd point out here, if you want to live a hedonistic life, 0.99
00:39:53.900 there are few things you can be born that are better than a gay man. 0.92
00:39:57.240 Like, I was actually bemoaning this with Simone. 0.99
00:39:59.160 I was like, if I was a gay guy, it would be like being able to, one, have an easy time with an orgy where everyone at the orgy is a woman, first of all. 0.99
00:40:09.740 Because you're aroused by everyone at the orgy. 0.98
00:40:11.680 The thing that grosses me out the most about the concept of an orgy is half the people that are going to be guys. 0.98
00:40:17.060 Like, I don't want to see naked guys. 0.98
00:40:19.000 That's disgusting to me because I receive a strong disgust response. 1.00
00:40:22.680 But if I was a guy, I'd be like an orgy full of women. 1.00
00:40:24.980 And dating, way easier, you know, because you're reaching out to people who aren't assholes. 0.99
00:40:31.620 I'm not saying all women are assholes, but I'm saying that being the gatekeepers within sexual marketplaces causes women to relate to men in a way that can be derisive. 0.98
00:40:44.100 Like, if they don't... 0.99
00:40:45.100 I mean, women really come off as quite cruel to men within sexual marketplaces because they get spoiled. 0.99
00:40:50.860 Seeing, like, even normal overtures as creepy or whatever wouldn't have to deal with that as much if I wasn't being creepy as a gay man. 0.85
00:40:58.820 Because, you know, they would have a better understanding of me.
00:41:01.260 Another one, you, like, would be dealing with people who are, on average, more attractive than the general population.
00:41:07.700 I don't know if you, like, have many gay male normal friends.
00:41:12.900 But, like, gay men put a lot more effort into how they look. 0.99
00:41:16.160 Yeah, on average, they take way better care of themselves.
00:41:18.560 Yes.
00:41:19.900 And I was also just thinking, like, even something like a singles cruise.
00:41:23.920 Like, if I was on a gay man on a singles cruise, like, that's something where you can actually, like, sleep around.
00:41:28.780 With women, you can't do that because, like, women actually want something out of this. 1.00
00:41:32.740 Like, there isn't, like, this large pool of women who just wants to sleep around all the time. 1.00
00:41:36.980 But all of these men who I was attracted to would also have the male sexual profile of preferring variety.
00:41:43.000 And now, all of this is maybe on the net bad for gay people because it's more temptation. 0.61
00:41:49.260 But I'm just saying, if you're hidden as a maxing, you're actually in a preferable position to be born gay. 0.97
00:41:55.040 In this age, yeah. 0.95
00:41:56.260 In this age.
00:41:57.040 With his prep and everything like that.
00:41:59.280 Yeah.
00:41:59.420 Which is, like, AIDS drug and stuff.
00:42:00.880 But I'll never experience a party, like, a multi-day gay, like, fire island party. 0.99
00:42:09.620 There is, like, no straight thing that's the equivalent of that.
00:42:12.760 Except, like, maybe a furry party. 0.93
00:42:15.020 But that's mostly gay anyway. 0.99
00:42:16.620 No. 0.87
00:42:16.680 No.
00:42:17.120 Yeah.
00:42:17.480 There's just always going to be drawbacks there.
00:42:21.320 Yeah.
00:42:21.980 Unless you're, like, some historical sultan with a menagerie of women, I guess.
00:42:28.360 There's just no... 0.93
00:42:29.160 Gay people get to have the sex lives of, like, historic sultans. 1.00
00:42:33.760 Basically. 0.99
00:42:34.800 Yeah.
00:42:35.380 Basically.
00:42:36.300 But it's a little more fun because I think, let's say that you're a sultan with your menagerie of women. 0.99
00:42:40.620 Like, you don't get to feel like you've conquered.
00:42:42.300 You don't get to feel like you've won someone over.
00:42:44.860 Yeah.
00:42:45.200 Because they're just there because you have money and resources.
00:42:48.480 So I think it's even better now. 0.76
00:42:50.340 Than you murdered their husbands. 1.00
00:42:51.800 Yeah. 0.99
00:42:52.560 Yeah.
00:42:53.260 I'm not saying that.
00:42:54.440 Well, that might make it a little hotter, you know?
00:42:56.260 Yeah.
00:42:56.620 For some, it sort of depends on what you're into.
00:42:58.240 It depends on what you're into, yeah.
00:43:01.140 But the point I'm making here is that I think it's cool to revisit these topics that we, for so long, were not allowed to talk about or investigate or think critically about with a more open-minded approach that is less reactive in the way that the progressives and the urban monoculture react to these particular issues.
00:43:21.480 Yeah.
00:43:22.580 Yeah.
00:43:24.680 Well, so then I think our takeaway from this is if the Supreme Court overturns state bans on gay conversion therapy, yes, a bunch of like businesses are going to maybe start providing, providing it again, but it's not going to do anything. 0.69
00:43:38.860 So if you're just getting, it's like being like, oh yes, we now allow homeopathic therapy again.
00:43:44.800 And it's like, well, okay.
00:43:45.980 I mean, some people are going to make money and some people are going to have their money taken from them.
00:43:50.420 And it entrenches the issue because if you look at the types of practices that they're doing, for me, it would cause me to focus more on what's arousing me and help me not see myself as, you know, what could make you think you're not straight more than simulating like a housewife's life with a stranger?
00:44:08.180 I know, I know.
00:44:08.700 And a person being like, does this feel normal to you?
00:44:11.300 Yeah, I think like if, let's say that we were in like some culture where it's just like super not okay to be gay, we'd just be like, well, like your life is not about pleasure or sex and whether you were gay or straight, we wouldn't want it to be. 0.75
00:44:25.160 We don't want you to be in a straight relationship and straight and obsessed with sex because that is really not productive. 0.97
00:44:31.360 It's almost a blessing that you're gay. 0.99
00:44:33.040 So don't worry about it. 0.99
00:44:34.540 That's fine.
00:44:35.480 You know, focus on the things that actually matter and you're okay.
00:44:37.980 That kind of thing.
00:44:38.640 Like, I guess is, is what we would advise someone to say if they actually were really not okay with their kid being gay.
00:44:44.500 Well, I mean, I would, I would focus more on the kid.
00:44:47.400 I think that like my question here is should a kid be forced to have an opinion like that?
00:44:53.580 No, a kid shouldn't be forced to have an opinion like that.
00:44:55.860 But if they were brought up in a culture that they like and want to stay in, they should be allowed to pursue therapies and stuff that make it easier to stay in a culture that they want.
00:45:07.420 I don't know, like if our sons, if any of our sons say, listen, we're gay, my first thing is just like, make sure you make a lot of money because having kids is going to cost you a ton more.
00:45:17.980 If our daughters turn out to be lesbians, I'd be like, congratulations, you can double up on kids immediately. 1.00
00:45:24.340 This is amazing.
00:45:25.200 You've hit the jackpot.
00:45:26.060 But I would be about as anti-our kids going to something like this as I would be our kids, you know, being gender transitioned.
00:45:36.760 Going through gay conversion.
00:45:38.620 Yeah, I do not think that. 0.89
00:45:39.480 Yeah, no, gay conversion. 0.92
00:45:40.020 No, it just makes things worse.
00:45:41.020 You're absolutely right.
00:45:41.720 It makes things worse.
00:45:42.480 And I think that in reality, the vast majority, when I talk about like drugs and stuff like that that lowered libido, the majority of the time I actually think these drugs should be implemented is not necessarily same-sex attraction for young people, but just arousal patterns that the young person finds problematic or deleterious with their daily life.
00:46:02.700 Yeah.
00:46:03.180 Which some people have.
00:46:04.440 They develop fetishes or they develop, you know, it was one I saw somebody talking about on a show recently, was they developed like an addiction to like sissy hypnoporn.
00:46:13.000 And like, I wouldn't, like if I was aroused by that, I would probably take a chemical to suppress that.
00:46:19.400 Yeah.
00:46:20.040 Oh, yeah.
00:46:20.780 Yeah.
00:46:21.240 If you don't like it and it doesn't make you feel good about yourself, then let's, let's, let's take some, I'll track some.
00:46:28.660 I'd be like, yeah, I don't, I.
00:46:30.060 I, yeah, and I bet that there are a lot of gay men who are in, who have like a beard, who are in a relationship and they are the only ones in the world who actually know their arousal pathways, who really wish that they just felt them less. 0.99
00:46:43.020 And in this case, naltrexone would be amazing.
00:46:46.680 Yeah.
00:46:47.500 Just make life less.
00:46:48.460 So I think it's, it's about being accepting of all lifestyles, both the gay people who want to live as gay people, but also gay people who want to live within cultures that, that say that you should marry a woman and have kids.
00:46:58.540 Because again, whoever said that sex was more important than religion, culture, and family.
00:47:06.760 The urban monoculture literally. 0.81
00:47:08.640 But that's insane.
00:47:10.080 That's insane.
00:47:11.320 I mean, even for someone who has a lot of sex, then the hours of the year that they spend having sex, not that many hours, not that many.
00:47:20.240 In the end.
00:47:20.840 That's a weird thing to define identity around.
00:47:22.980 Yeah, it's, but just like, if we're talking pleasure hours though, like versus other things that could yield more pleasure hours, if that's all you're optimizing for, it just is such a dumb thing to make your life decisions around. 0.87
00:47:36.740 It doesn't make, there's no logic to, I love you autistic woman, autistic, but mostly asexual woman, who's just like, sex doesn't make logical sense. 0.87
00:47:45.520 That doesn't give me the argument in favor of its utility.
00:47:51.400 Right, Indy?
00:47:52.760 Love you to death, Simone.
00:47:54.240 I love you so much, Malcolm.
00:47:56.000 And you are very, very, very, very sexy. 0.93
00:47:59.300 I'm gay for you, so. 0.98
00:48:01.520 Well, I'm, I'm gay for women.
00:48:04.540 Thank goodness.
00:48:07.880 That's, that's wonderful.
00:48:09.320 Yeah, no, I think, I think you're attractive as well.
00:48:11.860 Uh-huh, yeah.
00:48:12.600 You're just dealing with post-marriage sex life, which is so terrible. 0.86
00:48:17.220 Well, I mean, it would reward me more if I was sleeping with lots of other women. 1.00
00:48:22.800 Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
00:48:25.680 We have that video, I'm allowed to, but like, it seems like a waste of time.
00:48:29.320 Remember the last time we were on a college campus around a bunch of people wearing swimsuits?
00:48:33.200 It was like, kind of hard.
00:48:34.600 Like, there were enough fit guys around, but.
00:48:37.320 Oh, yeah, the women are not as attractive as they used to be when I was. 1.00
00:48:40.520 The economy is kind of rough right now.
00:48:42.540 Yeah.
00:48:42.760 Yeah, I was like, ooh.
00:48:43.880 So, yeah, good luck.
00:48:45.880 I'm glad you went on your rumspringa sexually when you did, because I think we.
00:48:50.360 Before you, yeah.
00:48:51.340 Well, no, no, no, like, before women started letting go, I guess, before the 4Bs movement. 1.00
00:48:57.460 We were sort of randomly accusing people of things, and before all of these women had.
00:49:01.520 Yeah, but also, like, on the whole, I think college women were more attractive 15 years ago than we are now. 1.00
00:49:10.600 Sorry.
00:49:11.680 I'm sorry, guys.
00:49:12.540 You've got the mooses.
00:49:13.720 The mooses, the meeses.
00:49:16.960 Mooses are majestic creatures.
00:49:19.740 And many people would say that about these scooter beasts roaming college campuses these days.
00:49:26.840 They're just, they're not even scooter beasts.
00:49:29.860 They're, like, soft and unremarkable.
00:49:34.000 Yeah, shapeless.
00:49:35.080 Like, yeah, like, lumpy space princess.
00:49:39.100 Yes, that is, that is, that is women on college campus these days, this lumpy space princess. 1.00
00:49:42.740 I knew you liked me.
00:49:44.680 No, I don't.
00:49:45.460 I, I'm just stopping by because.
00:49:46.860 Just admit it, lover boy.
00:49:48.520 You can't resist me.
00:49:49.840 Well, if you want these lumps, you gotta put a ring on it.
00:49:53.220 Where's my ring?
00:49:54.340 Ah!
00:49:54.940 I knew you liked me then.
00:49:56.440 That's why you're running.
00:49:57.720 Get in touch with your feelings, babe.
00:50:00.920 Sweatpants, the rounded edges.
00:50:02.740 Yeah, there's just no more sharp edges left.
00:50:04.440 You just want my lumps. 0.98
00:50:05.480 I'll post that.
00:50:06.200 All right.
00:50:06.680 All right.
00:50:06.960 All right.
00:50:07.280 All right.
00:50:07.560 I love you.
00:50:08.780 Love you, too.
00:50:10.700 That was fun.
00:50:11.600 I just love speaking with you so much.
00:50:13.520 I love speaking with you, too.
00:50:15.360 All right.
00:50:16.160 Thank you.
00:50:17.280 By the way, this Lyman Stone article is such a puff piece.
00:50:21.140 What?
00:50:21.680 The Guardian article?
00:50:22.780 Yeah, for him.
00:50:23.260 It's not about Lyman Stone.
00:50:25.040 It is largely about Lyman Stone.
00:50:27.900 Well, they hate us.
00:50:30.180 So he, and they, share a common person they dislike.
00:50:34.960 They say to him as, like, the pro-natalist you should listen to.
00:50:38.980 They don't say anything mean about him or take anything that he said out of context.
00:50:42.880 No.
00:50:43.380 Which shows that, like, they are, to anyone who has, like, media literacy, they are trying
00:50:48.440 to promote him while framing him as a reasonable alternative to us.
00:50:53.160 But the problem is that everything he says in the piece is super, like, nothing burger.
00:51:00.380 Like, watery and, you know, it's not going to do well.
00:51:03.440 Like, nobody's going to see it.
00:51:04.280 Families need to be treated better.
00:51:06.280 It is vague.
00:51:09.940 But.
00:51:11.940 It is the Guardian, Malcolm.
00:51:13.400 Don't worry about it.
00:51:16.780 Well, nobody sees it anymore.
00:51:18.420 They don't even have a Twitter account anymore.
00:51:20.800 Or an X account.
00:51:22.620 I think they quit.
00:51:23.320 Oh, yes.
00:51:25.000 Did they get the, you know, all their pieces were getting nerfed?
00:51:27.740 Unless they just summarized them.
00:51:29.440 And so, you know, who sees their stuff anymore?
00:51:31.720 Subscribers.
00:51:33.900 People in the UK.
00:51:36.080 Theoretically.
00:51:37.680 Theoretically.
00:51:38.760 Yep.
00:51:43.380 A shopping cart?
00:51:47.060 That's a pretty cool purse.
00:51:50.120 What's going on with the airport?
00:51:51.580 I just had the police at the airport, so, um, it got being sick from...
00:51:58.040 Now, where is the smoke?
00:51:59.720 The predators?
00:52:00.880 Yeah.
00:52:01.360 Where is the smoke?
00:52:02.760 Oh, my gosh, Titan.
00:52:03.960 You have such a full purse.
00:52:05.040 No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:52:08.520 The police are protecting the police.
00:52:12.540 The police are making sure predators do not get in the airport.
00:52:18.080 I think the predators of an airport are called terrorists.
00:52:22.920 Terrorists.
00:52:23.660 Yes.
00:52:24.200 Stop interrupting my airport.
00:52:26.360 They're out.
00:52:27.060 Terrorizing.
00:52:27.940 Stop terrorizing my airport.
00:52:30.060 Yeah.
00:52:30.820 Terrorizing.
00:52:31.840 He's terrorizing the airport.
00:52:33.360 Terrorizing.
00:52:34.460 Terrorizing.
00:52:34.500 Terrorizing.
00:52:35.040 Terrorizing.
00:52:35.080 Terrorizing.
00:52:35.200 Terrorizing.
00:52:35.880 Terrorizing.
00:52:36.280 Terrorizing.
00:52:37.120 Terrorizing.
00:52:37.200 Terrorizing.
00:52:38.260 Terrorizing.
00:52:41.060 Terrorizing.
00:52:41.640 Terrorizing.
00:52:43.220 Terrorizing.
00:52:43.980 Terrorizing.
00:52:45.120 Terrorizing.
00:52:46.120 Terrorizing.
00:52:46.780 Terrorizing.
00:52:48.500 Terrorizing.
00:52:49.520 Terrorizing.
00:52:49.600 Terrorizing.
00:52:51.320 Terrorizing.
00:52:53.800 Terrorizing.
00:52:54.680 Terrorizing.
00:52:57.600 Terrorizing.
00:52:58.100 Terrorizing.
00:52:59.400 Terrorizing.
00:53:00.860 Terrorizing.
00:53:01.300 Terrorizing.
00:53:02.300 Terrorizing.
00:53:02.800 Terrorizing.