Feminists Prefer to Date Misogynists： The Science
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode, we discuss the alarming statistics that show that women are worse than ever before in terms of the types of partners they go for, and how they respond to these statistics. We also discuss why men who admit to graping women are both more popular and have more consensual sexual partners than men who do not.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
you helped me understand that I might have been significantly more dark triad
00:00:04.120
in the way I treated you early in our relationship.
00:00:18.240
But the point is, in the context, this sounds really bad
00:00:26.240
You're just explaining your human manifestation of the research.
00:00:58.660
Today we are going to be going over some studies that show that women are worse than I even knew
00:01:03.920
in terms of the types of partners that they go for.
00:01:06.000
Because I told you these this morning and you were shocked.
00:01:09.000
Not only do feminist women prefer more misogynistic men, we'll go into that study.
00:01:13.700
But in addition to that, males who admit to graping women are both more popular and have
00:01:21.900
more consensual sexual partners than men who do not.
00:01:26.660
And so we will go over all of the studies around this, what this really means.
00:01:31.820
And before I go too deep into this, what I will point out that we're going to find with
00:01:35.740
the graping behavior, is that this is more of a bimodal distribution, which means that
00:01:41.980
you see this sort of aggressive, coercive sexuality in both men who are unusually successful, i.e.
00:01:49.240
unusually popular, unusually sexually successful.
00:01:53.260
And you see it in men who are unusually dumb, unsuccessful, see themselves as pathetic.
00:02:02.500
I mean, it makes perfect evolutionary sense, too, right?
00:02:06.820
The well, because you're at the top, you can get away with it, you know, impregnate as
00:02:11.940
There's no other way you're going to pass on your genes.
00:02:19.280
But what's interesting is it how women respond to all of this.
00:02:24.260
Open wide, kids, because I've got a grape in the mouth.
00:02:28.440
I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the catchphrase, I'm going to grape you in the
00:02:37.860
The second thing that we'll be going over with this, because I'm going to treat this
00:02:39.800
as a bit of a follow-up to the episode on host clubs, is a lot of men see this in the
00:02:50.340
They think that women go for bastards disproportionately, who are the male conception of the
00:02:59.980
bastard instead of the female conception of the bastard.
00:03:05.500
And so they're out there trying to act like Andrew Tate when what women go for is, not all
00:03:12.020
men do, but there's like a portion of the community that thinks that's the type of bastard
00:03:20.360
If you haven't watched the host club episode, I can only imagine like your typical red pillar.
00:03:27.800
Yeah, it goes up to a host, and it's one of these pretty boy host club guys.
00:03:31.920
That's what they all look like that we pointed out.
00:03:33.540
They're all like, yeah, twinkie looking, you know, very fae.
00:03:42.360
You know, sometimes when my woman talks back, I even smack her.
00:03:50.000
And then the host club guy's like, well, that's very interesting.
00:03:57.020
And he's like, well, 80% of women who see me, I've turned into sex slaves.
00:04:04.260
I actually sent them out to a brothel in Manila where they take most of the year.
00:04:08.060
They only see me for vacations and stuff like that.
00:04:11.600
For the rest of the time, they're essentially slaves.
00:04:38.000
I just want you to know that like a normal person is under this.
00:04:41.420
Like, thinks it's really, really bad that you do this.
00:04:49.260
Look, yeah, it's a new level of like profound screwed up.
00:04:55.120
This is like smack go into the kitchen and make me a sandwich.
00:05:04.400
But the guy's like, but I'm so polite about it.
00:05:06.400
No, but I think that this is what we're talking about.
00:05:07.740
The host, this sort of fade bastard, it's very vampire bastard.
00:05:12.120
You know, it's what women go for in their literature.
00:05:14.240
But it is not the bastard that men think that women are going for.
00:05:18.420
So that's what we're going to get into in this as well.
00:05:20.140
Oh, and by the way, it is not uncommon, even though the hosts dress up nice and everything
00:05:23.980
like that to grate the women who are with them.
00:05:26.760
It's just the women don't care or report them in the same way they do when a big, gruff,
00:05:35.620
Which we'll get into why this happens as well, because it's very interesting.
00:05:37.900
We actually went a bit further on this after another episode recording that I'll post here,
00:05:41.760
because it is so fun to watch guys thieve when they reflect on the type of man that women
00:05:48.640
actually go for versus the type that the manosphere community tells them that they go for.
00:05:55.140
I've been posting, and I'll put some in the next episode, about, like, guys totally misjudging
00:06:03.100
And I want to put some of, like, David Bowie, you know, who's a man's master.
00:06:19.340
I'm like, do you, do you, Bieber, he's a great example.
00:06:22.400
Do you look at who women thirst over, you buffoons?
00:06:26.340
Like, why are you, it's actually funny, if you look at the idols that women have thirsted over,
00:06:30.740
whether it's Prince or Michael Jackson or Justin Bieber, that bitch with you,
00:06:39.500
People will always point to Fabio, and I'm like, I have never met a young woman who fantasized about Fabio, okay?
00:06:44.760
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know who, who it was who thought that he would appeal,
00:06:49.760
or maybe he, like, appealed to this very specific generation.
00:06:55.820
Have you ever met a woman who thought Fabio was attractive?
00:07:11.620
Lots of, lots of Pirates of the Caribbean, you know?
00:07:20.460
He transformed himself into a snake, and he knows that I love snakes.
00:07:23.280
So I went to pick up the snake to admire it, and he transformed back into himself, and he was like,
00:07:31.560
And, and I mean, John, and what, which, what's funny about the character of Jack Sparrow
00:07:36.540
is that it's just Keith Richards cosplay, but pirate style.
00:07:42.720
And, and yeah, and, and Keith Richards is not exactly, uh, you know, he's not the stereotypical
00:07:53.780
So, in a article titled, The Characteristics of Sexually Coercive Men and the Nature of Sexual
00:08:00.660
Coercion, and another one, Why do some men sexually coerce women in evolutionary perspective?
00:08:05.940
What they found in this study, and the corroborating ones, researchers surveyed heterosexual young
00:08:11.300
adult men using questions about self-reported use of force to obtain sex, e.g. have you had
00:08:17.380
sexual intercourse with a woman even though she didn't want to because, because you use
00:08:24.320
They measured mating success via self-reports of attractiveness of the opposite sex, number
00:08:31.760
So, the key findings, men self-reported mating success, more consensual partners, perceived
00:08:37.340
attractiveness, positively correlated with the likelihood of admitting to using force
00:08:42.620
Men reporting higher consensual partner counts were more likely to also report coercive behaviors.
00:08:53.840
Now, note here, it doesn't go entirely against it because you also see a higher on the other
00:09:00.040
A follow-up correlatory study, Maelsma, 1998, replicated these findings.
00:09:05.860
And then a third relevant study, Sin et al, 2000, predicting coercive sexual behavior across
00:09:11.780
the lifespan in a random sample of Canadian men.
00:09:23.480
From a small Canadian city, which also keeps it, you know, very, you know, sort of insular
00:09:27.440
here, found about 27% reported some sexual coercion slash assault, where around 7.7% reported
00:09:36.720
Now, adolescent promiscuity slash short-term mating success and more partners in adolescence
00:09:41.800
was one of the strongest predictors of later sexual coercion.
00:09:52.960
I saw this in a meme on the base camp setwriters where I saw it.
00:09:58.120
They're like, just imagine, like, the chads out there, like, yeah, you know, I sometimes
00:10:08.880
I mean, it totally makes sense, though, because I think also the guys are like, well, I mean,
00:10:16.140
She's just, also, I think men who are more sexually experienced also are more aware of
00:10:20.700
the fact that women like, on average, dominance.
00:10:24.480
And then they may misread resistance for, like, but no, please, actually, do the thing.
00:10:31.880
So, keep in mind, this is not the woman's perspective on what happened that's being judged
00:10:37.100
This is them giving men questions about the type of smexual encounters they had when they
00:10:44.100
had these encounters and what happened during those encounters, right?
00:10:48.780
And then they, the scientists, get down and write in a book, this overwent this line that's
00:11:01.960
So, if you are a guy who sleeps around a lot, you are going to get very good at judging,
00:11:11.180
like Simone said, when a woman actually, like, when the resistance is part of the sexual experience
00:11:19.840
for the woman, or when the resistance is, like, a genuine...
00:11:27.260
It is not part of the game or, like, a playful fantasy, but real.
00:11:34.540
And this is something that just requires a lot of experience to know.
00:11:38.340
And what they're saying here is men who have a lot of experience, when they reply on these
00:11:42.460
surveys, they go over boundaries that me, Mr. Progressive Scientist, has categorized as
00:11:50.380
When, in reality, I'm going to be honest here, and I think that a lot of the red pill has
00:11:54.440
taken the wrong thing away from these particular studies.
00:11:56.360
My guess is that a lot of it isn't actually coercion.
00:12:00.460
And that if you asked the women who were involved in these encounters, they would not have contextualized
00:12:23.060
To maybe help somebody who might be struggling understanding what I mean by this.
00:12:34.760
You go and you have her sign out the, I consent to, you know, rough smex today where I like
00:12:50.840
And you've done that every day for two or three months now.
00:12:54.000
And then one day, you know, you're in a situation and you begin to get frisky with each other
00:12:59.700
naturally because you didn't have time to do the consent forms that day.
00:13:02.700
And she starts to do all the things that she normally does after signing the consent forms.
00:13:08.580
And you go along with it because that's just what you're doing.
00:13:11.900
Now you go talk to a scientist and the scientist says,
00:13:14.940
hmm, you went up, she didn't sign the consent form that day.
00:13:19.860
And you're like, I know her behavior patterns well enough to know what I'm doing here, okay?
00:13:26.560
So I want to be clear about that because I think that's a really strong point here.
00:13:30.400
But what is important to note is that you see this across like all the studies, right?
00:13:38.720
Lemery et al., 1996, a test of mate deprivation hypothesis of sexual coercion.
00:13:44.380
This is one of the core studies behind the claim.
00:13:46.260
In a sample of 156 young heterosexual men, self-reported sexually coercive men had higher
00:13:51.320
self-perceived mating success, more extensive sexual histories, more partners, and greater
00:13:55.860
preference for casual sex, partner variety, and lower earning potential.
00:14:09.020
And then there's Canon, 1985, study of self-identified date grapists, college men, 71, self-disclosed
00:14:22.120
The coercive men were 41% more sexually successful slash experienced than non-coercive peers.
00:14:35.040
But I mean, I also would, would say just, and of course the eighties was a different time.
00:14:41.560
Also, this is really old research, unfortunately.
00:14:43.840
One thing I noticed, though, when, when I had my very brief stint on the dating market in
00:14:50.600
2012, in like the, the three months before I met you, no one made a move.
00:14:58.900
And, and, and that, I mean, now, now, you know, more than 10 years later, men on college
00:15:05.680
campuses, as we've been told by professors, are too afraid to even approach women because
00:15:11.340
they're afraid of being accused of something, this is creating an environment in which only
00:15:15.780
people who, even if they're like literally asking like just a girl for her phone number
00:15:21.200
in some environments will feel as though he is practically attacking her, you know?
00:15:28.500
But I do think that it's important to note that the utter lack of initiative being taken
00:15:36.320
by many men would mean that any man who takes initiative is going to have a very extreme
00:15:44.960
You, you talk about other men not taking initiative.
00:15:46.940
So like what I did first date, I couldn't have been considered SA by progress.
00:15:54.440
I basically just led you to an isolated location, which came up against the wall.
00:16:05.660
Now you're like, oh God, I was sexually assaulted by a woman.
00:16:11.700
But I had the experience to know that that's like, and this is what I talk about.
00:16:19.520
Remember how I said like the, it's not just about having the experience to know, oh, there's
00:16:23.280
one person who I've been signing this contract was every day.
00:16:25.680
I had enough experience with different women that when I saw the way you were reacting
00:16:29.400
to everything I was doing, I didn't expect any sort of, like, you didn't have a negative
00:16:46.160
So this is something that they would have categorized as SA.
00:16:50.020
Is it, I mean, I, we would have to look at the survey design to determine it, but yeah,
00:16:55.000
I mean, you, you didn't, we didn't have, we didn't stop and have a conversation about
00:17:02.440
No, but I also used my physicality to restrain you before.
00:17:19.760
And so what was your thought then or after that?
00:17:25.360
I was obviously excited and very taken with you.
00:17:32.520
Would you have felt the same way if I had gone over like a list of like, okay, I'm going
00:17:36.720
to do X was you now, and I'm going to do Y was, you know.
00:17:39.340
Well, for some people, that's like a form of dirty talk or foreplay, right?
00:17:45.280
Like I'm going to do this to you and I'm going to do that to you.
00:18:01.620
Various longitudinal studies, 2000 onwards on college men, repeat SA perpetrators, men who
00:18:07.680
coerced multiple times had the most extreme scores on promiscuity related measures, more
00:18:12.660
lifetime dating partners, earlier age at first consensual, more consensual partners over time
00:18:20.940
They also scored higher on hostility towards women, callous attitudes and adolescent delinquency.
00:18:26.940
I think anyone who's exposed more to anything has a more callous attitude, you know, nurses
00:18:35.680
in the NICU have, I mean, they're, they're, they care, they can care a lot about babies,
00:18:40.120
but they also have more callous attitude because they've been exposed to a lot, you know, they're
00:18:44.540
not going to have the same heightened reaction to every little thing because they've been doctors
00:18:51.940
Don't like when you've exposed to a certain number, like a scenario type or a person type
00:19:01.480
You know, they, they see a lot of stuff, right.
00:19:04.800
Whereas like you and I would step onto a crime scene.
00:19:08.900
Like a lot of EMTs in their, in their first rounds will, will vomit out of, you know, disgust
00:19:18.460
And then over time they don't because they get used to it.
00:19:21.360
So of course they're going to get like, it would be weird if they weren't more callous
00:19:26.740
It's weird that that would be reframed as some kind of disturbing dark triad trait when
00:19:34.280
it's just a, it's a reality of becoming experienced.
00:19:43.000
And that's sort of what I'm realizing when I go through these.
00:19:44.800
It's not clear to me what's just experience and what.
00:19:49.000
Like a good control would be boys who've had a lot of, who have a lot of sisters, you
00:19:54.220
know, like, are, are, are they more callous to women?
00:20:07.260
Did, did, do, do boys who have a lot of sisters, are they more progressive or conservative?
00:20:16.860
Oh, I love that you expand our knowledge by searching things like that.
00:20:26.620
This is how you've got to talk to a woman to subdue her.
00:20:35.140
Anyway, so, so dark triad traits and short-term mating success.
00:20:39.660
Multiple studies, Johnson et al. 2009, Johnson and Kavanaugh 2010, and review slash synthesis up until recent years show that men that are higher in dark triad traits report more sexual partners and have a greater preference for short-term unrestricted mating and higher mating success in casual context.
00:20:57.160
These traits facilitate exploitative acts, including.
00:21:00.840
They're like guys with higher body counts appear to have more interest in short-term relation.
00:21:07.040
I mean, obviously, how do you get a higher body count when, like, I'm so confused.
00:21:15.400
I think that one of the things that researchers miss in a lot of the research on the dark triad traits correlating with more partners misses is that as you settle down or become more monogamous or in a long-term relationship as a guy, your psychology changes pretty dramatically.
00:21:33.900
Your hormonal profile changes pretty dramatically, and your rate of dark triad traits is going to decrease pretty dramatically.
00:21:42.400
So a guy who is in a long-term relationship with lots of kids, take me now versus me before, is going to be dramatically less dark triad than a guy who is sleeping around a lot.
00:21:54.640
And that's just part adaptive psychology, right?
00:21:59.900
Like, if dark triad traits make it easier for you to impregnate a lot of women and not have to worry about the consequences, your body is going to adapt to that because that's what you're genetically optimized to do.
00:22:11.860
When you are in a long-term partnership and have five or six kids running around the house, having dark triad traits is biologically maladaptive, right?
00:22:20.140
And I think that the red pill has convinced too many guys to take pride in dark triad traits for their own sake than understanding that it is an adaptive mechanism for short-term partner cleaning up and not...
00:22:35.520
Although, you helped me understand that I might have been significantly more dark triad in the way I treated you early in our relationship.
00:22:47.780
So, you told me this morning, I was like, oh, I was nice enough to you.
00:22:54.740
You were like, early in our relationship, you can say it.
00:23:03.320
Go marry some heiress or like prestigious Stanford MBA grad.
00:23:08.240
And then just basically use me for free labor as your side piece because I helped you a lot with like your work and entrepreneurial stuff.
00:23:16.660
And like, I was just like a work engine, a workhorse.
00:23:21.340
And you knew that I was also obsessed with you.
00:23:23.440
And so, no matter what, you could depend on me to just be your girl Friday and always be there for you, even though you had some other wife and you probably would continue sleeping with me anyway.
00:23:35.440
And because you were joking about how like, well, you weren't, you know, like, you weren't so sure about me.
00:23:41.540
Because obviously you weren't planning to commit to me.
00:23:44.380
You were planning to exploit me and not provide really anything meaningful in return.
00:23:49.620
Like, I remember, I wasn't, I didn't lay this all over.
00:23:56.000
I wasn't good enough for you, but I was still useful to you.
00:24:01.060
And, and, and, and it's such a surprise to you that my parents weren't immediately enthused when you proposed to me and that, that they were a little reticent that they didn't give you that.
00:24:14.280
I don't think I had, I don't, I don't, I don't know how they picked up on it, but like, I asked you this morning.
00:24:19.480
I was like, listen, if, if you knew that that was the dynamic of like one of our daughter's boyfriends, would you give him your blessing?
00:24:29.480
I didn't lay this out to Simone as part of some like psychological dread game or anything like that.
00:24:37.040
I was just like, you do not have right now a particularly good job.
00:24:46.280
Like I can probably secure somebody who brings in at least, you know, 10, 20 million from a, an heiress or something.
00:24:55.700
You know, and if I, I do really well, 50, 60 million, then I don't have to worry about money anymore or somebody who has an elite degree, who's going to get a good job and support me.
00:25:06.260
Like I, I, you know, I, I would just like laid it out.
00:25:10.200
Like, I'm like, I I've got the, the credentials I need to secure a partner like that.
00:25:14.720
Like, and I did, and I was like, so why would I like, and it wasn't just that you told me you didn't want to marry.
00:25:23.240
I was, I was also transparent that my, my mission was to fall in love and have my heart broken in one year.
00:25:28.040
This is why we both amicably, amicably agreed to break up on July 31st.
00:25:34.220
But this wasn't like, the problem was that you planned on not respecting my desire to just move on and be alone forever.
00:25:42.180
After that, you were like, ah, I could still like use you for free work.
00:25:46.080
Well, and I said, you want that ultimately, because it's not like you had somebody else you were going to go to, to work for.
00:25:51.500
Or, but yeah, but I, I would feel terrible if I was doing it because I loved you and you were with some other woman.
00:25:58.480
Simone, Simone, but the point is, in the context, this sounds really bad when you go back on it in the context.
00:26:12.560
You were just, you're just explaining your, you're, you're, you're a human manifestation of the research.
00:26:30.220
People on the internet are like, wow, he's way out of her league.
00:26:36.560
She says, I'm just looking to fall in love and have my heart broken because I've never dated.
00:26:46.020
I do not want to be in a long-term relationship.
00:26:47.980
So when I'm telling her all of this stuff about who I wanted to marry, what I was looking for in a partner,
00:26:52.900
I was telling her all this stuff was the understanding that we were going to break up.
00:26:57.220
Then she made me promise that I was going to break up with her.
00:27:00.580
This is not me like trying to psych her out or something like that.
00:27:04.940
But the, the point being is that when you, when you tell it back the way that you're telling it,
00:27:14.560
I'm just, you're telling me I have to break up with you.
00:27:17.760
So I'm just telling you, well, this is what I'm going to do after I break up with you.
00:27:33.740
I'm looking to find a wife and I intend to find her at Stanford where there's a large
00:27:47.160
The thing you were distressed about at the time.
00:27:52.380
Listen, I wanted to fall in love and have my heart broken and get over it.
00:28:06.720
Good guy, Malcolm, who's like, I'm not going to abandon my friend and business partner.
00:28:21.300
I was just like, oh, I really enjoy spending time with her and working with her.
00:28:26.080
So, of course, even though we break up and I find a real wife, we're still going to work
00:28:35.040
In fairness to Malcolm, he was on good terms with every ex-girlfriend.
00:28:39.820
Like, there was no ambiguity that we wouldn't be on good terms.
00:28:44.140
Like one of my exes was one of my like bridesmaids, like one of my groomsmen, right?
00:28:50.760
Most attractive person at our wedding for like everyone agreed.
00:28:55.400
That was really embarrassing that your parents agreed.
00:29:07.900
Just when contrasted with the women I had dated before you, that was another thing that probably
00:29:14.000
Because I date very attractive people, typically.
00:29:26.420
And I often preach on this channel that you should not just marry someone because you
00:29:33.580
think that they're the hottest person you're going to get to marry you.
00:29:37.680
You should go for the workhorse, which everybody knows is what I wanted, right?
00:29:51.920
But you weren't necessarily when contrasted with, but the point I'm making here is I
00:29:58.340
created an environment that was way more Dread game than I now contextualize it as having
00:30:19.880
You know, treat her with respect, you know, meanwhile, early in my relationship.
00:30:24.720
Well, but I mean, there's so many layers to it.
00:30:26.940
And I think, you know, part of the fantasy too is this, like the female makeover transformation
00:30:33.060
And like you did, like this, we dated before Fifty Shades of Grey was even written, right?
00:30:39.700
But like one thing that happens is in Fifty Shades of Grey, Christian Grey, this like billionaire
00:30:45.280
or whatever, I think he like, I haven't read the books and I haven't watched, I could not
00:30:52.720
Oh, but I think he puts her on a diet and he like tries to hire her.
00:30:57.460
Like people, women like this, like he's going to make me better kind of thing.
00:31:02.280
And he didn't know you were like, well, like, what do you want to achieve in your life?
00:31:09.900
And we completely changed my life strategy to not around your goals, your goals for me
00:31:16.300
or your interests in how you could exploit me, but rather what I stated as my personal
00:31:21.680
And you helped me achieve them more effectively than my undergraduate college experience, than
00:31:28.220
like any other advisor or mentor that, you know.
00:31:31.120
Like during the few months we were dating, she went from the, like managing the company's
00:31:34.760
Facebook account to being the director of marketing at the 45th highest traffic website
00:31:40.300
I did get a major promotion and I got a lot more responsibilities, but I did more than just
00:31:44.500
manage those Facebook positions at TechCrunch where you never, what was it?
00:31:48.760
It was the, that's that big tech fest in Austin.
00:31:52.300
You won some big competition that I encouraged you to apply to and you spoke at South by Southwest.
00:31:58.620
We changed your, we worked on like all sorts of all, all over change.
00:32:04.760
Which again, I guess could look Machiavellian or dismissive that I'm like this.
00:32:10.000
The point I was making with that was that it's not just that you were dread gaming me and
00:32:16.060
You were also to, to the point we made in the host club episode, where like the one guy
00:32:22.020
giving advice on how he makes a lot of money as a host is he, you know, builds a dossier
00:32:28.680
of the women's interests and what they're up to.
00:32:30.860
And then he, he focuses in on the, you, you, you intimately got to understand what I thought
00:32:37.360
And then yes, and did that into, well, then how do we do this more for you?
00:32:43.520
And that, that, so I'm, I just want to make it clear that you weren't only dark triadding
00:32:48.920
during this whole time and that you later forgot about it.
00:32:52.400
Would I ever actively mean to you during that period?
00:32:56.960
No, you were, you were Malcolm, you were blunt, you know, I'm like, well, I want to do this
00:33:06.260
I mean, like, you know, you were, but I mean, that's with everyone that you actually care
00:33:12.940
Your outfit wouldn't have allowed you to achieve that.
00:33:25.320
I've come, I've come kind of full circle, you know, I'm, I'm back in, you know, historical
00:33:31.240
I started out in historical costumes and now I'm back in historical costumes, except
00:33:34.960
now I'm just not wearing the occasional like hard.
00:33:37.300
But I think that people miss, they conflate dark triad, like personality and traits with
00:33:51.840
It's about being effective and that it's, it's a show of power and not caring about like
00:34:02.000
I think there's a high correlation between dark triad traits and power, assertiveness,
00:34:07.920
confidence, and initiative, which are all incredibly sexy things.
00:34:15.200
I think that's part of the thing that confuses them.
00:34:16.560
Here's what I wonder, is dark triad just not having time for other people's BS, right?
00:34:25.280
Well, they say it's narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy, but Machiavellianism just
00:34:31.980
Well, narcissists, but narcissists are deeply insecure.
00:34:34.900
I don't, I don't see how narcissism has to do with any of this.
00:34:38.700
Well, I think that there's an easy way to see confidence and, and, and self-assurance.
00:34:47.920
It's narcissists if you are trying to paint somebody in a negative light.
00:34:52.340
Like, I have a huge ego, but I wouldn't say I'm narcissistic.
00:34:56.920
Even, even back then, I don't think I was particularly narcissistic, but I definitely-
00:35:02.780
My, my understanding of narcissism is that the world is about them, that confidence is
00:35:09.400
not real and deeply held because there's a deep level of self-hatred and like inward
00:35:24.760
You, you had AI make a dossier of Nick Fuentes and also you.
00:35:29.780
Yeah, but I thought that the, one of the terms that it repeatedly uses to describe my view
00:35:41.260
And that's a better, better description than narcissist.
00:35:45.160
It's an immense, an immense self-confidence to the point of it being debilitating, but not
00:35:52.920
a self-confidence that is at the like expense of other people.
00:36:05.980
When I met you, I gave you like a life plan and you jumped up to like a world player.
00:36:13.820
And like the typical dark triad misogynist would not build up a woman like that.
00:36:20.440
They may position her in a way where she can make money that he will then take, but you didn't
00:36:26.580
Well, I mean, I wanted to, but by that, what I mean is I didn't, you know, I didn't, I,
00:36:33.000
So I say, well, we need to get you into a good degree.
00:36:37.920
Oh yeah, this was after we, yeah, we were engaged.
00:36:44.700
And so I was like, here are the colleges you could apply to.
00:36:48.700
And you, you told me it didn't matter that people would see you for who you were and your
00:36:57.520
And, and that was, I remember it not because like I was mean to her that night.
00:37:02.080
I was like, okay, create a list of everyone who you admire on LinkedIn.
00:37:07.320
And see if any of them didn't go to a top quality school or, or they didn't achieve their money.
00:37:12.540
Like women you admire that didn't achieve their money through marriage or being born into
00:37:15.940
And after you went through the list, you started crying because you realized that I was right.
00:37:22.640
And that's how you ended up with a graduate degree from Cambridge, which was a nine month
00:37:35.240
So I guess you wanted to believe the world was fair or.
00:37:37.720
I really don't like, you'll, you'll notice I have a very high level of anxiety around bureaucratic
00:37:47.500
Like it took me nine months just to get us to the Peruvian consulate in New Jersey to
00:37:52.200
grant power of attorney to a lawyer so that we can finish business transactions in the country.
00:37:58.160
Because I, I hate it so much and universities are that getting a degree is that you have
00:38:05.620
You have to apply, you have to get in, you have to go through the grinding machine.
00:38:09.980
And at the time we didn't know that it was going to be Cambridge per se.
00:38:13.320
I also didn't know what Cambridge or Oxford or even St. Andrews was like really.
00:38:28.400
I was sending you to the glue factory from your perspective.
00:38:35.460
But I should note here that it's not just the high status successful guys who have this
00:38:41.580
If you look at Verga et al 1979 and then the related 1976 Kentucky prison experiment, what
00:38:49.720
you see is that Grapus have significantly lower IQs than non-Grapus prisoners could also
00:38:59.760
Or the ones where the women objected afterwards.
00:39:02.620
That's the other thing you need to remember about this.
00:39:05.760
Actually, that's the thing is, is I believe there's also research that shows that in trials,
00:39:10.840
when the victim is ugly, that's less likely to lead to a conviction.
00:39:15.060
And also, when the aggressor is hot, it's less likely to lead to a conviction.
00:39:20.200
I think that's pretty well attested in the research.
00:39:30.640
Ugly people can commit crimes, but pretty people can't.
00:39:34.340
In jail, if you are a sexual offender, you're going to be much lower IQ than non-sexual offenders.
00:39:39.480
And what's interesting is that this is even bigger if you were a sexual offender against
00:39:43.520
Um, they are like people who are, are just slow-witted people, like be very afraid of
00:39:58.100
And then another interesting one here is that Liseka and Miller 2002, this came from a
00:40:07.880
They found that 6.4% reported something that legally met the definition of grape or attempted
00:40:16.980
63% were serial grapists, about 5.8 grapes each.
00:40:21.320
And they accounted for 439 grapes, 786 other violent acts, battery, child abuse, et cetera.
00:40:29.300
These men resembled incarcerated grapists in repeat slash multiple offending and antisocial
00:40:34.940
Anger at women, dominance in need, hyper-masculinity, low empathy.
00:40:38.080
But their offenses were typically against acquaintances, highly planned, and involved deliberate intoxication
00:40:44.360
of victims, minimal visible injury, and little weapons use.
00:40:48.240
The authors noted that these undetected grapists were more in control and higher functioning
00:40:52.680
than the stereotypical low SES prison grapists.
00:40:55.640
So what you're seeing here is it could just be that these men are not caught and that
00:40:59.880
women do not mind as much afterwards, which I know that these scientists can't say in
00:41:05.360
the data, but obviously that's a part of it if they didn't call the cops on these guys,
00:41:11.100
It's that classic meme, you know, of the ugly guy at the office saying, hi, they're like,
00:41:18.780
Now, this study I found very interesting and I was unaware.
00:41:20.720
While women like dominant men, they prefer prestige.
00:41:25.420
Being respected for a skill, knowledge, or charisma achievement beats dominance using
00:41:32.560
Snyder, Kirkpatrick, and Barrett, 2008, quote, the dominance dilemma, do women really prefer
00:41:40.620
Three experiments, college women, women strongly preferred high prestige men, peer recognized
00:41:46.220
abilities over high dominance men, coercive tactics.
00:41:49.480
They actually preferred low dominance descriptions in most cases.
00:41:53.320
Dominance was only attractive when women were shown it in a narrowed context, athletic
00:42:03.640
So this is, again, this sort of dominant persona that you think that you need.
00:42:07.940
You can be dark triad without needing to stay in dominant frame constantly.
00:42:19.960
It is about, well, really self-assuredness and ruthless pragmatism.
00:42:25.220
Yeah, I mean, I guess, how do you define dominance?
00:42:27.020
Yeah, because I would say they express dominance.
00:42:30.240
You know, they're fighting for attention in their dark triad.
00:42:33.360
And the way scientists understand it and the way that Red Pill understands it, you should
00:42:37.420
translate that in your head as ruthless pragmatism and not as acting like a prick.
00:42:43.580
Yeah, that's the problem is so much of the Red Pill content that, and keep in mind, I was
00:42:49.660
most in like all the Red Pill online content between, we'll say 2013 and 2017.
00:43:06.560
So it's been a while, but it just came across as irritable.
00:43:15.280
And you were into that stuff when you were dating me and you didn't think anything was
00:43:20.560
You weren't irritable or mad or angry or resentful.
00:43:23.360
You didn't think of my tactics as Red Pill-ish at all.
00:43:27.040
You were, you were a little, you came across as a little sociopathic, but I desperately wanted
00:43:37.860
I could be the prison guy getting all the letters.
00:43:40.860
That's how people in our community always complain like on the subreddit and stuff like
00:43:47.260
Yeah, I mean, but again, that, that's the thing is like serial killers aren't necessarily
00:43:54.260
They don't necessarily look like chads and they don't, you know, and neither do host club
00:43:59.080
Yeah, but they, they're like, they thoughtfully, I think something that's really attractive to
00:44:05.120
women and just, I think it's, it should be very easy for men to relate to this.
00:44:09.540
When you look at the most popular erotic material online for men, the most common, super, like
00:44:16.700
it's just women who are just so fricking excited to, to pounce on you and that there's nothing
00:44:23.300
better than you doing whatever it is you're going to do to them.
00:44:26.020
They're just so excited, like a dog, like, oh my God, you know, like they can't wait.
00:44:31.120
The, the male version of that is like intense need and interest in the woman.
00:44:37.760
Like I will stalk her like prey, like predatory manner.
00:44:41.240
Well, yeah, but like, that's, I think that's kind of the dynamic.
00:44:45.880
But like, I, I feel like that's, that is the female version of it is this intense male
00:44:49.840
hunger for an interest in, like, I will, I want to know all about her.
00:44:54.900
There's this whole thing in twilight of like, oh, Edward Cullen can read everyone's minds,
00:45:04.860
And he has to know about you by actually talking to you while you sleep.
00:45:12.200
Like any serial killer behavior, that's creepy.
00:45:18.120
Because there's intense interest and that interest on its own is hot because the desire is hot.
00:45:23.460
So this, this, this Labrador style, like, is, is not, it's not, it's, it's the same thing,
00:45:39.220
So next study, Chang et al, 2010, 2013 prestige gets deference plus liking dominant gets fear
00:45:45.800
based compliance, but lower likability prestige oriented men are seen as higher value long-term
00:45:51.060
So again, if you want to be a long-term partner, it's easy to make mistakes.
00:45:55.520
If you all learn what works from short-term sexual marketplaces, because then you think
00:46:01.260
that things that work during short-term sexual marketplaces are going to work in all marketplaces.
00:46:04.780
And yet you make fun of women for making that exact mistake about their own bodies.
00:46:08.840
You know, learn, don't make that mistake about the tactics that you're learning either.
00:46:15.020
Feminists think sexist men are sexier than woke men.
00:46:17.520
Goel and Coffrey take a related tack, but head in a slightly different direction.
00:46:21.900
They suggest that female interests in sexist men, specifically men who display quote unquote
00:46:25.340
benevolent sexism may be seen by women as being more an interest in men investing resources
00:46:33.400
Benevolent sexism describes a form of sexism, which is overtly less hostile and misogynistic
00:46:38.120
and reflects beliefs that I was taught as a man from the U S South.
00:46:42.120
Benevolent sexism includes beliefs that women should be quote unquote, put on a pedestal.
00:46:47.420
Women should be cherished and protected by men.
00:46:49.380
Women should be willing to, men should be willing to sacrifice and provide for women.
00:46:55.400
And women are refined and pure compared to men.
00:47:00.440
That is like, you're going to financially take care of me, protect me, open doors for me
00:47:06.940
and not hold me responsible for my own actions.
00:47:11.420
Like, why wouldn't someone sign up for that regardless of their, their sex?
00:47:18.580
I, I'm not going to go too much further because we've got so much other data I collected here
00:47:23.060
and maybe I'll put together another episode on it, but it's an interesting, I thought this
00:47:26.420
episode was funny because we're going over the recontextualization of our early dating.
00:47:30.700
And I was like, this morning, I wasn't dark triad when we started dating.
00:47:38.260
And you're like, there was the thing with the details, concrete facts.
00:47:48.880
I wasn't trying to be, I thought I was just being practical.
00:47:52.680
I just, and I think that this is also how I come off as like the world more broadly.
00:47:57.420
They hear me say things like, well, you know, your low fertility populations are going to
00:48:04.720
I tried to tell them this, but if that's the way it is, then so be it.
00:48:11.640
Well, if populations don't engage with genetic alteration and the populations that do will
00:48:16.440
simply outcompete them in a global and economic context.
00:48:19.540
And eventually they will be at the whim of the augmented populations and augmented population,
00:48:26.560
at least deciding that they have a duty or a moral duty to protect the non-augmented
00:48:32.000
And, and I say that and people are like, that's, it's the same way.
00:48:36.380
And it's like, no, I'm just freaking explaining how it works.
00:48:44.740
It's frustrating, but I think, I mean, practical takeaways for male, male listeners.
00:48:54.760
I mean, I don't, what, what is a guy supposed to take away from this?
00:49:03.380
One is, is that more important than being a gym bro or whatever, right.
00:49:09.100
Is being ruthlessly pragmatic and being ruthlessly pragmatic is what's really meant by dark triadism.
00:49:15.320
Be ruthlessly pragmatic, but show interest in the woman and show interest in her from
00:49:26.140
And if you're going to challenge her or push back against her, don't push back.
00:49:37.940
So like when I pushed back against Simone or when I was condescending to her early in
00:49:42.180
our relationship, it was not, I want you to do what I want, or I want you to do what
00:49:48.180
society expects of you, or I want you to follow these deontological rules.
00:49:56.040
This path or action that you're taking won't lead to this.
00:49:59.420
Let's look for evidence confirming or disconfirming.
00:50:05.060
You wouldn't necessarily be that diplomatic with your wording all the time, but.
00:50:19.200
I would say just also be assertive and be prolific.
00:50:21.940
I think a lot of this data is just kind of confounded.
00:50:24.200
And it's like, oh, you know, men who have a lot of sexual partners have short-term relationships.
00:50:30.180
So, well, duh, like, if you want to cover a lot of ground, you know, like, if you want
00:50:35.340
to get to, like, 100 countries, you know, in your lifetime, you can't, like, spend, you
00:50:41.580
And highly experienced men know better when a woman actually wants them to stop than my
00:50:49.040
And also, like, exposure to anything is going to make you a little bit more dulled to it.
00:50:54.680
You know, you're not going to be as, oh, my God, like, every time something happens.
00:50:59.000
Also, early in our relationship, a lot of these studies are like, these men get women intoxicated
00:51:04.940
before they put them in compromising positions.
00:51:10.780
And I was like, I won't date you if you don't drink.
00:51:14.540
You know, like, that would have been seen as, I think, going over a line in a lot of,
00:51:23.200
And even though I didn't drink before, now I try to get drunk by only drinking, like,
00:51:31.420
So she, when she does nights where she gets drunk, she takes a cup this big.
00:51:44.720
And that's enough to get me happy while I then systematically clean the entire house.
00:51:59.520
If I drink, me, like, heavyweight Malcolm, who drinks constantly, if I drink what you did,
00:52:12.940
So, like, a tall latte, you could say, from start.
00:52:20.400
But, like, when you are, like, Nordic and Russian and Irish and German, like, that is...
00:52:28.940
So I don't think I was actually intoxicated when we had our first date.
00:52:44.680
When I look up 5.3 ounces, all of them are Chobanes.
00:52:58.960
I go through one of the large Chobane yogurt every day.
00:53:13.740
Because, like, one shot, Malcolm, like, you know, like a shot of...
00:53:17.760
Whiskey or vodka or whatever, I think it's typically one ounce, right?
00:53:23.940
That and my wife on a regular night with the family.
00:53:26.980
But no, this is just to say that you didn't intoxicate me to the point of me being like,
00:53:33.480
There's only that one night where I blacked out in Chicago after those investors made this
00:53:38.800
And I bought a large box of wine and consumed it all.
00:53:43.320
And then I can't remember what happened after that.
00:53:47.240
That is just so fun that your compromise work trip stories are with your husband.
00:54:10.500
You know, we've had people, like, offer in the area who follow the podcast.
00:54:13.680
Like, hey, do you want to join this Boy Scout hike that's happening?
00:54:18.940
But I'm also like, who is time to leave their house for two hours to do a thing?
00:54:36.960
You want me to use, like, Thai red curry if we have it, right?
00:54:38.940
I think I have a giant thing of curry paste in the fridge.
00:54:40.600
Yeah, Thai red curry would go really well with it.
00:54:48.440
Well, do you want me to make it gochujang or do you want me to lean into Thai red curry?
00:54:52.780
I would do, like, a scoop of gochujang and a little Thai red curry.
00:55:01.600
I'm thinking sauteing some garlic and ginger and butter before putting in the rest of it
00:55:05.460
and then putting some chopped green onion on top as a topping.
00:55:24.040
But I just feel like, I want to point out, this is, no, it's not about being dark triad.
00:55:34.540
It, be prolific and find someone whose values are aligned with yours, who you, this is a business
00:55:47.220
He married the one with whom, who he worked well with, who had values aligned with his.
00:55:59.360
You want to find someone you work really well together.
00:56:02.800
I think that does help a lot that you like each other because you're going to have to
00:56:06.080
like your kids and your kids are going to be half that other person and they're really
00:56:11.060
You need to, you need to like them, but this is a business arrangement.
00:56:14.520
First and foremost, it has for the vast, vast, vast majority of humanity.
00:56:38.780
Well, at least big brother Octavian is worried about him.
00:56:43.760
He's, like, just dealt with the multiple bloody, I feel really bad for him.
00:56:58.520
We're going to get him comfy and I'm feeling okay.
00:57:03.060
I think your ear to work because your hand breaks.
00:57:12.200
Um, well, maybe, you know, he's, okay, I guess that's what it, okay, one moment, one moment.
00:57:31.960
I'm not going to say it because you're recording now.
00:58:09.200
He's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's playing on me.
00:58:31.580
Hi Daddy, I'm just going to do so in about five minutes.
00:58:36.580
I'm just going to search for my kids now and I will run up.