Based Camp - Frances Comically Bad Fertility Policy (Simone & Malcolm Debate)

00:00:00.000 hello this is malcolm and simone here and we are happy to be talking about some pronatalist

00:00:04.480 statistics and policy today today's episode is going to be focused on france's recent policy

00:00:13.120 proposals to combat demographic collapse however i have not seen them so simone is going to be

00:00:22.000 presenting them to me and you are going to be getting my in real time reaction would you like

00:00:27.360 to know more yeah so i recently came across this telegraph article it was published i think a

00:00:33.200 little earlier this month but it's about policies that have been discussed for a while it's called

00:00:38.060 france to offer young people fertility checks to combat falling fertility rates and it discusses

00:00:44.300 a couple of policies which at best not going to do anything at worst are probably going to cause

00:00:49.900 damage at least unless i'm crazy i want your take on this um so the gist is that um france's

00:00:58.820 president emmanuel macron is laudable for recognizing demographic collapse as an issue and talking about

00:01:05.100 it france's fertility rate relative to the rest of the eu is actually pretty good it but it had a

00:01:12.820 massive collapse this last year it did but that means the senior year they're still above the eu

00:01:17.580 average they're still above the uk they're still above germany and they're still above spain so

00:01:21.760 like generally speaking france is the one that looks good maybe because it's a little more catholic

00:01:26.260 who knows there's a lot no it's because it's less catholic oh really yeah if you contrast it with

00:01:30.720 other countries it's actually more secular and again this is what we've seen across a lot of things

00:01:35.220 is that the more catholic a country is in europe the lower its fertility rate was the average catholic

00:01:39.920 majority country in europe having a fertility rate of only 1.3 yeah that that makes sense then but

00:01:45.460 anyway they still recognize it's a problem i really appreciate that so they get points for that

00:01:49.620 all right pity points for that but the latest thing that emmanuel macron france's president has proposed

00:01:56.020 is fertility checks for young people he's trying to get people to test their fertility earlier but

00:02:04.400 quite honestly doing so isn't going to boost fertility that sounds like an interesting idea well from the

00:02:11.520 article i'll read what they say emmanuel macron is to offer fertility checks to all 18 to 25 year olds

00:02:19.020 as part of a grand plan to combat declining fertility rates the french president first announced his

00:02:24.360 ambition to enact french demographic rearmament which that's fun that's a fun term at a press conference

00:02:30.860 on january 16th as part of a wide array of measures aimed at reviving his stuttering second term

00:02:36.960 i don't think that's going to help and i can tell you why but i want to hear why you think that's

00:02:42.560 interesting and worth trying so what age ranges 18 to 25 why wouldn't this is just a great idea

00:02:50.440 actually so it's very similar to me to the policy where conservatives to fight abortion they made it

00:02:58.940 so that women had to look at a picture of their ultrasound before getting an abortion which dramatically

00:03:04.180 lowers the chance of abortion they are creating a policy which is encouraging people to recognize

00:03:12.320 their short fertility windows which is one of the core issues in society today in terms of falling

00:03:19.560 fertility rates is men do not realize they have fertility windows they think that because some men

00:03:26.380 occasionally have kids when they're older that it is normal for the failed fertility window to extend

00:03:32.160 well past 40 and it just is not you might occasionally get that but you're gonna have a really high rates

00:03:38.280 of diseases and stuff like that and you're gonna have it's just not great so that's one huge thing

00:03:44.440 that it hopefully it can help clear up that myth and force people to understand that myth and what

00:03:49.560 macron recognizes and mentioned in a magazine interview is quote every woman should have access

00:03:55.720 should have free access to her body but one figure stands out for me the fertility rate is 1.8

00:04:01.000 and the rate of desire for a child is 2.3 now that's a good point right so there are more there are women

00:04:07.040 in france who want to on average have more kids than they have so he recognizes that people are having

00:04:12.400 fertility problems or that they're not starting when they should and maybe one one thing he can enact

00:04:17.000 to change that is to inform them about their fertility again i just here's no it's not informing them about

00:04:23.160 their fertility you're reading what's happening wrong okay it's forcing them to take a reality check

00:04:29.040 on their fertility window through the most realistic mechanism available right through just hard data

00:04:35.080 women often don't realize how short their fertility window is yeah um after 35 if a woman gets pregnant

00:04:41.800 that's considered a geriatric pregnancy that is considered an extremely old age pregnancy and likely

00:04:48.440 to lead to complications a lot of women don't know the window is 35 they're like oh maybe by the time

00:04:53.960 i'm 40 and i'll start thinking about it in my mid 30s no if you start thinking about it in your mid 30s

00:04:59.520 you are not going to have many kids you've already lost you need to be getting married and starting

00:05:05.520 having kids in your late 20s not mid 30s okay so that's another thing but again here's why i don't

00:05:13.320 think it's gonna work okay as much as everyone's we just should inform people we just need to let them

00:05:18.280 know that their fertility window is short i don't honestly think that the problem is that people are

00:05:26.300 being unrealistic about their short fertility windows i think that many people who want to

00:05:31.420 have kids are aware so basically the people who already want to have kids and plan on having kids

00:05:36.180 know that their fertility window is short and they're struggling to find partners and they're

00:05:39.420 struggling to get their careers in orders and they're still going to wait to have kids because

00:05:43.540 you have literally seen this even among fans of this show when we've talked about is males who are

00:05:49.380 under the illusion that their fertility they're going to be like able to have kids it's one factor

00:05:54.700 i don't think it's the factor i think it's one factor but definitely not the defining factor

00:05:58.580 no it's not the defining factor but it is an inexpensive like if i was going to put the weight

00:06:03.060 anywhere policy-wise this is one of the easiest areas to do this outside of changing education

00:06:09.880 here's the problem with changing education you could try to do better education around people's

00:06:15.180 fertility windows it's just that if you put that into schools or colleges it is going to be

00:06:21.780 administered by bureaucrats who are usually anti-natalist because they're usually far left

00:06:26.100 leaning or at least anti- french french national natalist and so i just i'm sorry like it's actually a

00:06:33.680 fairly good policy for the cost i hold it as neutral i don't think it's going to help because i think

00:06:39.720 that the really big factors are culture that people just don't want to have kids or they don't feel

00:06:43.820 like they're ready to have kids yet and they're still gonna ultimately start trying or feel like

00:06:48.380 they're finally ready when it's too late so okay what's the next one yeah so the next thing that

00:06:53.840 bothers me is okay i'm gonna read from the article again mr mccron also outlined his future birth

00:07:02.160 leave scheme which will quote come to force at the end of 2025 unquote the aim is to pay young

00:07:08.580 parents who stop working or reduce their working hours to look after their offspring quote three

00:07:13.500 months for mothers three months for fathers cumulative during the child's first year and

00:07:18.180 compensated at 50 of salary up to the social security ceiling which is 1900 euros unquote he said

00:07:26.380 now again i really think that this is damaging things that are like we'll just pay you to put your

00:07:33.500 career on hold this is many places that have very permissive maternity leave policies are still

00:07:39.180 seeing their birth rates plummet because women are realistic and they understand that basically

00:07:43.380 you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't if there's no maternity leave it's hard to have kids

00:07:48.180 and if there is maternity leave you can have kids and you can get support but there are going to then be

00:07:53.880 more glass ceilings in your career because people know that you're more of a liability and there are

00:07:59.960 also going to be major career costs because you're just going to disappear for a while and that's

00:08:04.300 going to put your career on hold no matter what the nation may try to do to protect you so to clarify

00:08:10.040 this is mandatory maternity leave it's not mandatory it's just basically ensuring that women are

00:08:16.780 compensated both women and men are compensated when taking parental leave and it doesn't compensate

00:08:21.920 both genders equally yes and it's something like 80 percent of their salary right for a year

00:08:27.020 at 50 percent of salary and it's just for three months okay i is he this is three months for

00:08:34.020 mothers three months for fathers so it's a total of six months like the father can take three months

00:08:37.900 off the mother can take three months off so it's basically saying you can take time off the government

00:08:43.180 will pay you half of your salary so that should make it easier for you again i don't think that's

00:08:47.980 going to make a difference it's going to increase gender pay gap i mean anything around maternity

00:08:55.420 i believe as a concept we're just against you need to build cultural practices around having

00:08:59.960 children at work this is gender neutral so men can do it too it's just i don't think men are going to

00:09:05.180 do it no but it's much more important to create laws that like you cannot have a woman not come to

00:09:10.380 work with her newborn that that needs to just be a legal mandate something that is normal for women

00:09:15.400 to be wearing their children all the time yeah yeah if we could just change the norms to

00:09:19.940 bring your baby to the office we'll help to provide some support or at least have an inclusive

00:09:24.940 environment where it's cool to do that and then you want to really help things would be an interesting

00:09:29.660 policy take no bring your baby to the office 50 percent of your salary gets paid as a bonus to the

00:09:35.620 company for every mother during her first few months like the company gets a subsidy for having a

00:09:41.320 slightly less productive and more disruptive mother but like for supporting her so now the

00:09:46.640 company is financially incentivized for its employees to get pregnant that's good i like that

00:09:51.840 incentivized for its employees getting pregnant i like that and you create many downstream positive

00:09:57.120 practices from that outside of maternity leave which i think builds up this false fear of having the

00:10:04.460 kid is such a burden everything like that and then people can spiral around that when historically

00:10:09.660 women worked and had kids at the same time you you have with all of our kids it yeah i just don't

00:10:15.400 like that expectation but i wouldn't say it's a disastrous plan no again that's neutral there there

00:10:20.740 are two things that i think are quite negative so let's get to the first one which isn't easy

00:10:24.400 which is a very easy one to hate which is that he is strongly against surrogacy he says that it

00:10:31.020 is quote not compatible with the dignity of women is a form of commodification of their bodies

00:10:36.380 unquote he argued which is just it's very annoying because on the other hand he's argued that he

00:10:42.800 doesn't want pronatalism in france to be about shaming or guilting people who don't want to have

00:10:47.340 kids into having kids he's very much about supporting those who want to have kids and this is one of the

00:10:51.880 top ways surrogacy is one of the top ways you can support people who want to have kids but can't

00:10:57.120 i feel like getting over surrogacy is one of the most important things when it comes to

00:11:02.480 encouraging a nation to be able to have more kids it's even a great way for people who don't want

00:11:10.000 to have kids of their own to contribute to a nation's pronatalism while also making money

00:11:14.140 because a lot of people don't mind commodifying their bodies which is shown by the rate of women who

00:11:19.520 are on only fans now hello like yes you have something like only fans legal where women are literally

00:11:26.140 and it's my understanding only fans is illegal in france and pornography is legal in france

00:11:30.680 which means he's literally okay with women literally commodifying their bodies for base level human

00:11:38.500 debasement right and actually for probably more antinatalist tendencies right because men are using

00:11:44.180 only fans as a band-aid in place but creating a human life that another body is going to love

00:11:51.920 and raise and take care of and that is you know just the perversion of that sentiment i think it's

00:12:00.420 really good that he doesn't want to do something like he's trying to appease the this conservatives

00:12:06.420 yeah who are it's not working his approval ratings are dropping he's he's not doing well at all i don't

00:12:12.300 know just it really that bothers me but here's the really stupid thing and i actually i think it's

00:12:17.160 stupid i want to get your take on this because of what you've said regarding child support required

00:12:23.480 by men and its effect on fertility so here is a very interesting and i've not heard any other

00:12:30.380 leader establish this as a pronatalist policy but i think that if he does really push for this it's

00:12:36.340 going to backfire like crazy and this is very novel so get this i'm reading the article again

00:12:42.280 mr macron also outlined his future birth leave scheme which will oh okay so i'm quoting from

00:12:47.960 the article again in a video broadcast by l the magazine mr macron who has no children although his

00:12:55.200 wife bridgette has three from her first marriage also suggested opening a debate on the introduction

00:13:01.180 of a possible duty to visit for fathers in single parent families where women are the main carers

00:13:07.280 quote we've allowed men to exonerate themselves from all parental duties he said while pointing

00:13:13.180 out that 90 percent of youths involved in riots in france last july quote came from either child

00:13:18.240 wherefore or single child welfare or single parent families mr macron added when there is a father

00:13:24.420 he must exercise all his duties and the mother when she is in that situation must be able to demand

00:13:29.660 regular visits he said fathers should for example take part in parent teacher meetings and be a

00:13:35.100 quote stakeholder unquote in the child's education the president stressed it is a duty to be a parent

00:13:40.800 and it's a duty that doesn't end with a divorce or separation and said parents must quote both

00:13:46.260 exercise their responsibilities unquote he added even it is better a child who never sees his father

00:13:54.460 is a child who feels abandoned unquote and whose quote emotional and educational development is not the

00:13:59.940 same unquote now i agree children do better with two parents totally but actually i don't think

00:14:08.120 evidence is as strong for that as people like to say it is um so i'll give you the fact that's here

00:14:14.400 that people hold on so if you're looking gender blind children do better with two parents oh but when

00:14:23.280 you look at single father households at single father households they do about the same they do in two

00:14:28.620 parent households so what's unique about single father households right it's that most single

00:14:35.620 father households are not single father households because a relationship failed so let me explain what

00:14:41.300 i mean by that because people may not be familiar with the court system the court system hugely is

00:14:45.860 favorable to women women can usually get the kids that they want so what that means is if you have a

00:14:51.600 single father household it's usually because the wife died and so it is wildly incompetent and evil and

00:14:58.520 messed up yeah and in that case a divorce was warranted so it's not the kids are better off in

00:15:04.500 that case yeah yeah messed up if if so i don't think that is a condemnation of women as single

00:15:10.120 parents i just think what it shows is that a lot of these single parent women are people who are

00:15:15.340 fundamentally unfit to be parents or be in a long-term relationship with another human and the

00:15:20.520 lesser evil like the husbands too are probably unfit but whatever no i wouldn't say necessarily i think

00:15:25.720 if you created more equitable divorce laws and more equitable laws around child custody that would

00:15:31.960 have a better impact in terms of getting more fathers involved in their children's lives than forcing

00:15:37.940 but think about what you're forcing here so one you're forcing a father into a kid's life who

00:15:45.700 not like he's forcing the fathers to care about the kids he's forcing fathers who don't care about the

00:15:51.640 kids into kids lives that is not there is no evidence that is a helpful thing to do or that's going to

00:15:59.660 fix some sort of emotional problems the kid have around being abandoned that the kids only had their

00:16:05.580 father around because he was legally obligated to be around yeah i feel like it also adds baggage it's

00:16:12.180 just another one of those liability things that affects the the male subconscious and deciding

00:16:18.420 whether or whether it at all to engage with women so along with all these other laws around consent

00:16:24.880 and post-talk deciding that someone didn't consent to some kind of liaison with a man this is just

00:16:32.520 another one of those things that i think men would think about oh and then the government's gonna for

00:16:36.400 for my entire life not only demand child support but also demand that i travel across the entire

00:16:41.980 country just to show up at parent-teacher conferences if i move like this is gonna ruin my life even more

00:16:47.240 than i thought it ever was so i'm just gonna get a vasectomy right now and never ever have kids that

00:16:51.740 kind of thing i just that's what i worry about no it's obviously what's gonna happen i i see almost

00:16:56.940 no positive outcome for this other than that it may give some men more leverage in getting access to

00:17:03.320 their children yeah that could be a good thing but that's i think that there were probably this seemed

00:17:09.240 like the kind of law that would have some exception clause where if the woman really hated the man

00:17:15.200 or something that like she would still be able to cut him out somehow yes it seems like it's just

00:17:20.800 giving the wives more control when you would achieve much more by creating more equitable divorces and

00:17:25.720 getting kids to fathers more when the father is competent and i also think that this again goes to

00:17:32.020 i think the myth of the two-parent household when you look at the data like the data i'm talking about

00:17:36.240 i just think it shows that actually what you're seeing is the type of person who cannot maintain a

00:17:41.780 stable relationship is the type of person who is a bad parent and at that point it's oh yeah no duh

00:17:48.780 like anyone should know that and they have the type of kid who causes more social damage and more social

00:17:57.000 harm um and i i think that that actually is a pretty chilling statistic about the riots and stuff right

00:18:03.440 yeah that's and how do you even get that information i don't are they pulling everyone who shows up to a

00:18:09.160 riot they're breaking a window they're like sir did you have a single parent i suspect that if you were

00:18:16.200 to look into this data more is covering up something that is what's the word i'm looking for here

00:18:24.620 inconvenient truth that the dominant cultural group doesn't want to admit that the urban monoculture

00:18:29.760 doesn't want to admit which is that most of the rioters were from an ethnic or cultural group that has

00:18:35.460 very low rates of fathers staying around um that is i think what he is actually stating there

00:18:41.760 um not that they're just broadly so i think that's important to note is cultural groups which do not

00:18:50.720 encourage fathers i think have worse outcomes and cultural groups that do encourage fathers more

00:18:57.480 broadly because they're just you've got to look at all the things that that then gets elevated within

00:19:03.020 those cultural groups if a person isn't rewarded for staying around their kids they're often not

00:19:10.160 rewarded as much for treating women well and you're much more likely to get really high power distance

00:19:16.420 between husband and wife which leads to abusive situations for the wife even when the husband

00:19:21.260 does stay around you're also likely to have wives really heavily optimizing around just base masculinity

00:19:29.200 instead of is this person going to be a good caregiver because they are not searching for biologically

00:19:34.380 speaking they are not searching for a long-term partner they're searching for genes and so when women are

00:19:39.680 doing that they cultural groups often end up um elevating within them traits that are like wealth

00:19:49.160 physical strengths risk-taking behavior i.e crime right and a lot of just generally negative

00:19:58.940 traits become high status within those cultural groups i and this is definitely something that

00:20:04.860 needs to be fixed i just don't see this is fixing it i think with a lot of this it's something that

00:20:09.780 comes from within the cultural group fixing it comes from within the cultural groups yeah members

00:20:14.660 within the cultural groups which choose a different pathway but they're empowering those cultural groups

00:20:18.980 to fix their own ways is pretty mean yeah which involves less school overreach school cultural

00:20:25.760 overreach and stuff like that because the urban monoculture is interested in no kids like they

00:20:30.840 don't want any kids at all just do whatever you feel like whenever you feel like it but that's again why

00:20:36.140 i don't think this practice of informing people of their fertility window is really going to make

00:20:40.740 that much of a difference because listen if i was informed of my fertility window in between the age of

00:20:46.680 18 and 25 which is you know i met you at age 24 i'd be like great yep i never want to have kids so this

00:20:54.640 doesn't matter i'm not going to get it tested i think it's something that comes at a certain point

00:20:58.120 in your your life i think a more fun way to do this or something is all women when they graduate school

00:21:04.640 and all men get a clock that's counting down their fertility window and they get to put it in their

00:21:11.020 house wherever they want biological clock not thinking about it here's the thing many progressives

00:21:16.400 as a joke would display this because they'd be like oh but it would still remind all of their guests

00:21:22.420 and them every day because there's that moment in your life where it goes your fertility window goes

00:21:27.700 from being a joke to an existential crisis and being reminded of it i think makes that day happen

00:21:35.200 earlier um i don't know just when i think of progressive simone nah not at all really not at

00:21:43.920 all not at all and that's the thing is again like i can model this so well because i was this and the

00:21:51.280 only thing for me that changed my interest in fertility was meeting you was finding a guy who you

00:22:00.040 respected that was it and if he invested if macron invested in dating in relationship formation in

00:22:08.260 in creating a culture that elevates the family i feel like that would make so much more of a difference

00:22:15.720 than telling people about their fertility window you know what i mean it just people don't give a

00:22:23.100 shit the best of the policies he has i will say that the policies are honestly bizarre that he thinks

00:22:28.440 this would have a positive impact it appears almost more like subsidies or trying to what's the word

00:22:34.240 i'm looking for placate special interest groups or it was in society then actually trying to come up

00:22:40.740 with a real solution and even i don't know if you saw in south korea they're considering giving a

00:22:46.920 approximately 52 000 subsidy to parents for each kid wow which is that's unprecedented and this is along

00:22:55.660 the lines of what robin hansen has suggested in terms of upfront payments right even that though

00:23:01.660 when it comes to culture in korea being what it is and the amount of helplessness plus the animosity

00:23:08.120 between men and women i don't think is going to solve the problem it's no one's listening to people

00:23:13.960 when they're saying what's wrong no one's listening to women saying this isn't working for me no one's

00:23:20.820 listening to men when they're like i can't find a woman like this everyone's talking about it was

00:23:25.200 to joe when a man says i can't find a woman they're like when you must be an incel and when women are

00:23:29.680 like the gender dynamics in this country are you know are toxic they're like you must be a toxic

00:23:36.860 feminist right yeah and i think that it's because people like to elevate the extremists was in both of

00:23:43.380 those movements instead of pointing out that both groups do have genuine grievances they do the thing

00:23:49.980 is i just don't care because all of this can be fixed with culture yes but why are policymakers not

00:23:57.600 doing that it's so obvious that culture is the answer because what i guess what i'm saying here is

00:24:03.280 you're not getting incel ultra orthodox jews you you might have some fertility problems with this

00:24:09.060 community you're not getting incel amish men okay you might on the fringes but not more than you

00:24:14.460 would historically really and i think that and you're not getting people within these communities

00:24:18.940 being like oh it's so toxic the masculinity or from whatever they may leave the movement and then

00:24:24.980 complain about that because now they're in a completely different cultural club set where the

00:24:28.660 urban monoculture really likes to elevate people's beef with their birth culture because that's how it

00:24:34.200 prevents them from reconverting cults always do this so it tries to convince them that they hate their

00:24:38.720 parents and their parents were abusive and their birth culture was abusive so it will reward them

00:24:43.180 for going on rants about that so yeah when they leave the group but when they're in the group you're

00:24:47.320 really not going to get as much complaining because it functionally works and i think that this is

00:24:54.060 yeah i it's bizarre that he's doing this it's weird like token i'm gonna try to do something about

00:25:01.960 this but not really it's sad to see but it's something that we've predicted that as people

00:25:07.960 recognize fertility collapse is a real issue they will use it to push forward agendas that they had

00:25:14.520 beforehand that are largely unconnected and do you think it could be the article did mention

00:25:19.640 conspicuously that he is childless if you consider biologically speaking his choices in life

00:25:25.800 do you think maybe also the problem is largely that the policymakers and the people who are

00:25:31.240 attempting supposedly to address demographic collapse are largely childless themselves or

00:25:40.200 parents of just one or two children so not really pronatalist themselves and not really aware of what

00:25:45.560 makes people have a lot of kids or the mindset of someone who has a lot of kids

00:25:48.880 yeah um i think it's more of a thing that a person who's childless was able to become

00:25:55.480 a french prime minister in the u.s historically it would have been incredibly hard to be elected

00:26:00.360 president if you didn't have any kids no no weren't there a bunch of childless presidents

00:26:04.600 i don't think there were that many it was seen as a very weird or low status thing i'll look it up

00:26:12.020 and add it afterwards yep only five u.s presidents have had no kids so around 10 but yeah i think

00:26:18.860 that you we looked upon historically childless people with a lot of cultural suspicion and in

00:26:25.940 many countries like in israel where the fertility rate is still high they they're still looked upon

00:26:29.800 with a level of suspicion because it's seen as it's fundamentally um like one and a sign of their

00:26:36.780 a perversion of their personal value system that they valued cashing in all of the chips that previous

00:26:42.900 generations had paid forwards for personal worldly things whether it's speeded their career

00:26:50.120 or whatever like they paid forward the intergenerational sacrifice that every single

00:26:55.700 one of their ancestors has made and well i would also say that like having kids historically has

00:27:00.260 been normative so being childless would make you a slightly different or whatever yeah so while i am

00:27:06.700 okay like i say that we fight for a a future where people are allowed to have no kids i do but i do

00:27:13.960 not fight for a future where people are able to reach the highest levels of society if they didn't even

00:27:19.400 attempt to have kids i don't citizenship is earned through childbearing i actually yeah i we created a

00:27:27.100 model of government that we should probably go over in one of our episodes but yeah one of the ways

00:27:31.540 that like one of your votes is based off of how many kids you have how many people you contribute

00:27:36.160 to the nation yeah and there's different ways you can do that than just having kids but we don't want

00:27:40.840 to go into to all of that but the point being is that um i i think that's a totally reasonable thing

00:27:47.440 that you shouldn't be able to vote if you don't have kids if you don't have a vested stake in the

00:27:52.740 future of your country why are you voting but i do think this is a conspicuous generation this may be

00:27:58.040 a conspicuous issue behind the systematic failure and very consistent failure of governments to

00:28:03.300 successfully implement pronatalist policy which could be along the lines of tracy woodgreens article

00:28:11.160 sub stack article republicans are doomed in which he talks about the bureaucratic legal legislative

00:28:17.240 political ruling class that essentially gets shit done in government is largely progressive and

00:28:24.420 therefore lives progressive lifestyles that is to say low fertility lifestyles and doesn't really

00:28:28.340 get pronatalism and therefore really can't model or address demographic collapse and pronatalism because

00:28:35.360 they are too ingrained within the problem i think you need affirmative action for parents basically

00:28:41.100 or even just policies where you say you can't go about certain ranks within the government bureaucracy

00:28:46.620 if you don't have over x many kids but i think that this is where china is going right now

00:28:51.080 and i think it's one of the more positive policies what i'm more scared of is they move to forced

00:28:56.260 insemination which i think is also likely but uh barring government positions from people was under

00:29:01.480 certain fertility i think that's absolutely where they're going yeah and historically this was done

00:29:07.360 by default in many societies just because people without many kids were seen as deviants which

00:29:13.260 functionally if you're doing that by choice you are to an extent you are expecting other people

00:29:21.020 to have kids to support you in your old age you are putting the work on to us for us putting the

00:29:27.360 effort into raise our kids in the hopes that our kids taxes will one day go to support you when you

00:29:32.100 were living off the state and that is a genuine perversion and people can be like no i'm saving up

00:29:39.140 enough money for when i'm older honestly who do you think is caring for you who do you think is

00:29:43.100 you are still expecting and exploiting the labor of others and i'm okay with you continuing to exist

00:29:51.480 but i don't think the people should be elevated for this and i think we need a lot more shame in that

00:29:55.860 direction and this is something that people don't understand shame is not the same as not allowing

00:30:01.720 someone to do something and i am very okay with shame as a cultural tactic when an individual takes

00:30:09.160 makes selfish life decisions which are not about the betterment of society or making the next

00:30:16.580 generation better but purely for their own career development or personal satisfaction or validation

00:30:24.240 yeah okay so final question for you when it comes to these nations and they're in my opinion either

00:30:31.240 neutral or actively harmful policies when it comes to pernatalism do you think that most nations would be

00:30:38.100 better off just not doing anything just stop just stop spending money on this stop trying just don't

00:30:44.600 would you recommend that over them continuing to try stuff yeah almost right now it is just

00:30:50.480 just making things worse often yeah that's my thing as i was telling her i'm like france is digging its

00:30:54.940 own grave here like they they were doing relatively better i feel like they're just going to make things

00:30:58.640 worse maybe until what they need is groups like ours advising them and we've reached out to them we

00:31:06.300 reached out to the population division at the french government we're like oh we can help you guys but

00:31:09.940 never heard back from them and i think that's the thing better than the uk the uk was like no thanks

00:31:14.160 you're fine you're not fine uk yeah you're not fine guys but yeah uh i think what we need is

00:31:21.280 organizations like our non-profit doing more consulting with these governments and i hope that as things

00:31:26.500 get worse they'll begin to go to organizations like ours that are interested in real solutions

00:31:30.560 and not things that are just designed to appease special interest groups that said it's going to

00:31:37.460 be very hard to do because when in regards to pernatalism because you're not really rewarded in

00:31:42.880 any way for efficacious results there isn't a huge motivation politically speaking for this type of

00:31:49.580 delayed reward it's not like the economy or something like that yeah so i don't expect it to actually happen

00:31:56.200 yeah oh sorry for hiccups mcgee over here she's been she's getting better but yeah i love you though

00:32:05.100 and at least individual families are going to figure this out if not countries and nations so

00:32:12.740 it'll be okay have a great day someone i love you you too you got the kids

Based Camp - May 27, 2024

Frances Comically Bad Fertility Policy (Simone & Malcolm Debate)

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