Based Camp - Genetics, Dogs, & Pit Bulls： The One Good Genocide

00:00:00.000 most progressives do believe in hereditarianism in dogs and the question is why did they believe

00:00:05.300 it there and not in humans and it is because they have raised and interacted with dogs it is very

00:00:13.140 hard to miss hereditarianism if you have actually been around young people so what you're saying

00:00:20.640 also is this is a product of the fact that they don't have human children i think the previous

00:00:25.880 thing is what everyone's gonna freak out about in the comments he wants to genetically modify dogs

00:00:30.380 to be smarter how dare he but this is where things get spicy the pit bull debate yeah i do not think

00:00:39.920 that there is a huge moral negative to neutering the pit bull population humans who love dogs neuter

00:00:47.480 dogs all the time pit bulls in the united states kill an average of 8730 dogs per year in 2904

00:00:55.500 cats per year that means that if you neutered the entire u.s pit bull population you would be saving

00:01:02.020 one cat or dog's life that is somebody else's pet for every 3.86 pit bulls you neutered over the next

00:01:09.060 hundred years and i will tell you the best argument for not neutering pit bulls and then i will tell

00:01:13.740 you why it doesn't even work would you like to know more hello simone i'm excited to be here with you

00:01:18.380 today today we are going to be doing an episode that was inspired by somebody who was criticizing

00:01:26.360 us it was an article that was actually not so bad where was the article published it was like

00:01:30.700 the la review of books yeah and what's really interesting in it is when you went to look up

00:01:38.240 the writer of the article to learn more about her and her perspectives she was in the middle of a fight

00:01:44.420 on the internet based on this article because she called out us and a few of our friends like

00:01:48.800 johnny anomaly and diana fleishman the podcast yes and so she calls out a few of our friends and so

00:01:55.680 you know obviously they've got supporters as well online and and she's getting trashed in in twitter 0.99

00:02:00.320 which is actually interesting that it happened this way because often when people attack us enough of

00:02:06.140 a twitter spasmob forms like whenever we go viral that we are on the minority side but when they fail

00:02:13.180 to go viral the only people who notice are the supporters of the various people who are being

00:02:17.360 attacked and they end up getting shit all over so she was getting having to be defensive

00:02:23.500 and somebody found and she ended up defending this position a post where she claimed anti-hereditarianism 0.94

00:02:33.440 in dog breeds so specifically not only does she not believe that none of a human's personality is

00:02:39.380 heritable but she doesn't believe that any of a dog's personality is heritable right so like on on

00:02:45.180 twitter i can read a bit like so how some of this conversation played out because this is

00:02:49.900 a very common conversation we see again and again which is really weird with emily merchant the author

00:02:57.560 of this article representing the the kind of person who is very well educated and very well-meaning but

00:03:04.540 also very progressive and just will not believe will refuse to believe that that behavioral traits

00:03:12.720 including intelligence are heritable so stegosauro benedet writes i can't help thinking i would really

00:03:20.160 be screening for the gene that makes otherwise apparently intelligent people fall for pseudoscientific

00:03:27.020 nonsense like eugenics and then conchabar responds i haven't read the essay yet but the claim that we

00:03:34.480 can't select for specific traits in a population is utterly wrong we've been doing it with animals for

00:03:40.320 millennia to which emily merchant the author of this article responds it's much easier with animals but

00:03:46.720 a project by behavior geneticists in the 1950s to 1960s to breed an intelligent dog failed utterly and she

00:03:55.380 links to this this study and someone reads it and then includes a screenshot of the study saying just

00:04:02.200 skimming this they seem to suggest that it can be successful with dogs emily merchant responds no

00:04:07.580 they are saying that difference between dog breeds are small especially under similar living conditions

00:04:13.520 she continues scott was a member of the american eugenics society in the 1960s and he expressed extreme

00:04:19.380 skepticism about the possibility of breeding intelligence in humans on the basis of his experience trying to do it

00:04:25.600 with dogs so she's trying to argue that you know this this dog breeder okay so first of all i should note that the

00:04:31.640 other study that she's citing here because this is going to be important in a lot of progressives who do believe

00:04:36.700 like anti-hereditarianism in dogs is real will cite this it was a recent study actually used a giant sample

00:04:43.360 size showed only about a nine percent personality difference between breeds what they won't tell you

00:04:48.980 this reminds me of the spanking studies where huge sample sizes did not control at all in the way they were

00:04:54.080 collecting data is the personality of the dogs is based on owner self-reports yeah here's the problem

00:05:01.020 with that the owner self-report of a dog personality is going to have more to do with the owner's

00:05:07.560 personality than with the dog's personality yeah how many owners speak of their pit bull uh oh they're

00:05:14.640 just the sweetest little things you know because they use their dog to augment their own self-perception

00:05:22.360 which means of course you're not going to get much correlation there but then you can just look at like

00:05:27.540 just to go into pit bull statistics so people can understand how absolutely insane this position

00:05:32.780 is pit bulls make up 5.8 to 6.69 so around let's say six percent of the total dog population in the

00:05:40.680 united states okay but they're responsible for 69 percent of fatal dog attacks okay from 2005 to 2019

00:05:48.060 they killed 346 americans which is 6.5x higher than the next closest breed so 650 percent higher than the 0.90

00:05:56.480 next closest dog breed which only killed 51 people um and pit bulls inflict nearly half of 48 percent of

00:06:02.380 all fatal attacks on infants those are babies under one year old not okay and from 2015 to 2019 76 percent

00:06:09.700 of the fatal attacks on children under nine years old were from pit bulls keep in mind they only make up

00:06:14.020 66 percent of the dog population so you're like well that's the people who maybe buy pit bulls and

00:06:20.240 blah blah blah like what like it's very obvious to me and if you've owned a dog and this is the

00:06:26.360 other thing that gets really interesting to me in regards to this when you were talking to this

00:06:30.440 lady you were like are you mentioning with somebody who's like well try to teach a non well yeah i'll 0.58

00:06:35.660 read it i mean first someone james dog on twitter made a very good point saying if you're concerned

00:06:41.800 that ea because she also writes about effective altruism is a crude measure perhaps you should

00:06:46.560 be campaigning for researchers to be permitted to access vast existing iq linked databases which is

00:06:52.100 something that's being quite restricted right now but then he continues alternatively try teaching a

00:06:56.800 greyhound to memorize over 1000 distinct commands and use it to her shape and then conchabar comes back 0.94

00:07:04.200 in with op should prove how intelligent these these breed variations are by raising a pack of basset hounds

00:07:11.200 and putting them through ipo she'd lose her mind trying to get them to ipo probably like uh maybe like 0.89

00:07:19.140 an assistance dog training i don't know she'd lose her mind just trying to get them to stop 0.93

00:07:23.860 sniffing let alone competing against breeds specifically bred for it i mean the thing is

00:07:30.040 it's so clear with dog breeds i need to talk about like herding dogs for example so we i've always

00:07:36.460 believed that the core difference between dogs is what they're bred for so i think that dog

00:07:40.520 personalities predominantly if you're like what type of dog should i get you're looking are are you a

00:07:46.020 ratting dog a herding dog a hunting dog or fighting dog i mean pit bulls are fighting dogs let's oh yeah

00:07:52.980 fighting dogs like is it a dog meant to kill other dogs yeah um the the typically in my experience for

00:07:58.940 like what my family likes i always go herding dogs and i find herding dogs are fairly similar across

00:08:04.260 herding dogs but if you've ever had a herding dog it will be clear to you just how much of their

00:08:10.760 behavior is genetic so a great example is i grew up with an australian shepherd today we use uh corgis

00:08:17.080 which are another type of herding dog but for for our family's primary dog we adopt corgis we don't

00:08:22.340 use them yes australian shepherds they it when it rained when i was a kid because they need to get the

00:08:30.400 sheep to high ground whenever it rains so they didn't drown and clearly we didn't teach it to do

00:08:35.080 this it would nip at all of the family's heels to try to get us upstairs that is really sweet and

00:08:40.660 also yeah really weird if you don't believe things are inherited because no one taught this dog to do

00:08:46.520 that yeah no one taught the dog to nip at our feet to try to get us to go upstairs so where did it get

00:08:52.160 this really specific behavior pattern tied to herding and and you see this yeah just sort of like

00:08:57.600 across it's so wild to me that someone could think this but then it gave me this realization which

00:09:02.680 was something i hadn't realized before which is that most progressives i mean you've got a few

00:09:07.340 crazy ladies like this lady here who are like dog breed differences aren't heritable i mean she's not 1.00

00:09:13.160 crazy she's the weird thing is that she's very sane and and and reasoned and tempered i don't 0.98

00:09:19.260 think so i think you need to basically be in a cult to believe this or have never interacted with dogs

00:09:24.280 but this is i know here's the way that i look at it like if we were to frame this in from a

00:09:29.580 perspective point of view there are lots of otherwise sane reasoned people who believe

00:09:34.920 in scientific inquiry but also believe that the earth is flat and the non-hereditarian people 1.00

00:09:41.420 the blank slightest i think are similar you know they can they can engage i don't think that's true

00:09:46.000 i think you always want to see the best in people i think that a lot of the people who think the earth 0.96

00:09:50.640 is flat are generally stupid i think that people who believe non-hereditarianism in dogs 0.97

00:09:57.120 are generally just brainwashed cultists they are not well and i think the other thing that's 0.99

00:10:02.580 notable of course is that most even blank slightest progressives who insist that no traits behavioral

00:10:10.260 are heritable are like oh yeah i'm like of course you've got a border collie they're going to behave

00:10:15.280 i was about to make which is to say it made me realize that most progressives do believe in

00:10:21.360 hereditarianism in dogs most of everyone on culture does and the question is why did they believe it

00:10:26.820 there and not in humans and it is because they have raised and interacted with dogs it is very hard

00:10:35.140 to miss hereditarianism if you have actually been around young people of a specific species

00:10:42.700 so what you're saying also is this is a product of the fact that they don't have human children and

00:10:48.620 i think that's a really good point i was listening to a podcast called the bcc club which is broadly

00:10:54.080 about internet drama when you know i run through all my blocked and reported episodes and still need

00:10:58.000 some kind of gossip please people recommend something better than that that's about internet gossip that i

00:11:03.960 can listen to as a podcast but basically the bcc club is two very very progressive lesbians who talk 1.00

00:11:08.300 about internet stuff and there was one episode where they talk about buying pets online they talk a lot

00:11:13.900 about dog breeds and behavior and dog dna and then you know they also frequently talk in their podcasts

00:11:19.500 about the amounts of money that they pay for medical care for their pets and things like that

00:11:23.680 and they 100 understand and empathize with each other and talk about the the grief that they feel upon

00:11:31.680 losing an animal and then they they like literally can't empathize the same way with what it would feel

00:11:37.360 like to lose a human child and i think really seeing it i'm seeing exactly what you're talking about here

00:11:42.520 where they can't understand they can't they can't even really put it on the same level of their dog

00:11:48.920 their dog parenting which is really interesting to me that that that humans wouldn't be as lovable to

00:11:56.360 them as dogs because well i think they've so disconnected from their natural instincts at that point i mean

00:12:02.620 yeah they're not sleeping with men they're not you know engaging with people who are interested in 0.98

00:12:09.340 like rational discourse more broadly they have artificially constructed a lifestyle that masturbates

00:12:16.260 i think mostly status for them that seems to be the core thing that they're focused on is individual

00:12:21.380 status was in the urban monoculture which is achieved through adopting these more fringe and modern

00:12:28.380 lifestyle choices which leads to them no longer i think really identifying and i'd say they don't really

00:12:34.340 identify as human anymore but what i really mean by that is it's they don't identify most human

00:12:39.400 behavior as human anymore they think they're still human but when they look at like your average

00:12:43.720 rural american to them that individual is an animal and that's what they are thinking about when they

00:12:50.620 are trying to model kids and stuff like that i don't think that's quite it i think they're not

00:12:54.940 thinking i just i just don't think they they have that like empathetic basis to work with they don't

00:13:01.120 their world is their cats and they're their partners and it's not kids so they just can't

00:13:05.980 empathize if you see this in people all the time who have lots of kids is one of the things i've

00:13:11.300 noticed like that most when i hear people's stories where they became hereditarians and they weren't

00:13:16.120 formerly hereditarians yeah is after having kids yeah like that's i had kids and then i realize

00:13:23.260 well both you and i were i think just intuitively from our upbringing because i think

00:13:28.780 blank slate theory if you go through a public school system or a mainstream private school system

00:13:34.580 is is going to be more or less what's tacitly hammered into you you can learn about genetics in

00:13:39.960 school but you're still kind of raised with blank slate theory i think subconsciously and so i think

00:13:45.200 you and i came into parenting kind of with a blank slate mindset and then we're blindsided by the

00:13:52.560 traits of our children that are just very obviously hereditary yeah even when it's stuff that we've

00:13:58.060 never shown them never demonstrated they're not picking this up from us like we've hid it from them

00:14:03.100 and still well and the studies on this are incredibly compelling that that look at babies for example young

00:14:08.860 infant girls for example if you're talking about differences between males and females they will look 0.98

00:14:13.320 at an adult much longer like i think like 10x longer like dramatically dramatically longer they crave

00:14:19.080 social attention than male babies but if you look between for example ethnic groups there was a

00:14:24.620 study in like the 1940s on we mentioned in a different episode but it looked at caucasian babies

00:14:30.440 versus east asian children younger than six months and if you put a blanket over their heads the

00:14:36.340 caucasian ones like freak out and will rip it off where the east asian ones will just clear a pass for 1.00

00:14:40.280 themselves to breathe and it's a very different reaction to this negative stimuli and that you can see this

00:14:47.960 reliably in infants shows that there are some clustered sociological differences but i mean again

00:14:56.380 i think that progressives in the fact that they have to deny that this is true when it is so obviously

00:15:04.160 true end up discrediting the claim that they make that their system that they are creating for the

00:15:11.380 world that this urban monoculture can actually be fair if there is any degree of genetic differences

00:15:17.820 between individuals and this is something that's really made clear to us by one individual who

00:15:21.760 is like well yeah but if you intergenerationally select for iq in your kids and it does work i mean

00:15:27.440 what happens if in a few generations they're much smarter than other people and it was clear that she

00:15:31.820 didn't have a world framework where humans that are born differently from other humans can safely

00:15:38.020 coexist with other humans it's like well if one group ever did show genuine superiority to another group

00:15:43.900 they would have like a moral mandate to erase that other group or the other group would have a moral

00:15:48.100 mandate to erase it like that is genuinely what the urban monoculture believes because they don't

00:15:52.900 have a system for dealing with genuine diversity and that is really horrifying yikes yeah another thing to 1.00

00:16:01.940 go into here is the pitbull debate because we got to go into the pitbull debate yeah here is my thing on

00:16:09.980 pitbulls okay i believe that humanity does have a moral obligation to dogs and cats actually this is

00:16:19.400 before i get into the pitbull thing i need to make one thing clear we have a moral obligation to dogs and

00:16:23.920 cats that we do not have to other species yeah somebody like why would you think that we have a moral

00:16:29.780 obligation to dogs and cats that we don't have to other species and because the partnership that

00:16:34.260 humanity formed with dogs and cats was not a partnership of subjugation most of the other

00:16:41.680 species that we have where we have domesticated them it was us capturing them and forcing them

00:16:49.580 they're not like cows don't serve us because they wanted to serve us because at some point some cow

00:16:55.020 in distant history made the choice to work with humans that is not the case for dogs and cats

00:17:01.060 uh so we can start with cats which were actually the later domestication event and made human

00:17:06.380 civilization possible period okay why did cats make human civilization possible because before cats

00:17:14.420 we couldn't do long-term grain storage um which was critical to the types of bureaucratic

00:17:20.240 infrastructures it was the distribution and collection of long-term grains i.e early taxation that allowed

00:17:26.840 specifically in the nile in egypt that allowed for the first real major civilization to start which

00:17:31.880 was egypt but you couldn't long-term maintain grain in these primitive silos because they get

00:17:36.740 rat and mice infestations and so the introduction of cats which were an obligate carnivore and wouldn't

00:17:42.040 eat the grain but would eat anything else there is a reason that the egyptians worshipped cats there is

00:17:47.300 a reason they had cat gods and they mummified cats and they because cats made their lifestyle and

00:17:53.580 civilization possible in a way that people today do not appreciate and these cats were not captured

00:18:00.720 cats these cats were cats that came and made themselves at home within these grain silos okay

00:18:06.180 and then some egyptians began to live with cats but another important thing to note about cats as well

00:18:12.220 is that cats were never fully domesticated they do not in many categories of domestication count as a

00:18:18.360 fully domesticated animal often when cats are living with humans it is because to an extent they have

00:18:22.940 chosen to live with humans now dogs are a different and i think an animal that we have even more

00:18:28.320 responsibility to than cats um so what i mean by that is if you look at the early domestication

00:18:34.700 events from what we can see about the way that dogs were likely domesticated is it appears that some

00:18:40.400 canines began to lose the instinct to basically attack and kill humans or fight humans whenever they

00:18:47.480 see them beginning before they were a social animal and their tribe would be their tribe and our tribe would

00:18:52.020 be our tribe and we would fight and and kill each other and hunt each other and we were enemies but the

00:18:57.340 the group that made the first overture was the dogs it appeared what they did is some dogs began to hang

00:19:05.680 out around the refuge piles of uh early humans and then over time they began to become less afraid of

00:19:12.780 humans and humans began to integrate dogs which already had a pre-coded you know social clan structure

00:19:18.460 in them into our societies and it's important to note that our current concept of dogs as pets is

00:19:25.320 likely not the way that they integrated into these groups they likely integrated as a separate sort of

00:19:30.060 caste but as an independent caste and we can see this in some primitive african communities when

00:19:36.020 anthropologists have gone to learn about them there's this story that i found really interesting where

00:19:40.360 one anthropologist was walking around a settlement and she was talking to a person about their dog she

00:19:45.100 goes oh your dog and they go what do you mean my dog and they're like your dog and they're like i don't

00:19:49.600 know what you mean my dog and the person was like well the dog that sleeps in your house and they go oh

00:19:55.420 well yeah i mean it sleeps in our house because it chooses to it could sleep in any house that wanted

00:19:59.880 to it's not my dog and this is likely the way that early humans related to animals and we even see

00:20:07.160 this in modern times where you will have a town dog or a town cat when i was in saint andrews we had a few

00:20:12.880 of these i did you have any where you grew up simone yeah i mean i think even in houses where

00:20:18.800 people have domesticated cats sometimes people like neighbors will start feeding one of those cats and

00:20:24.600 the cats sort of two times families you know what i mean and we'll like sleep over at the other

00:20:29.840 person's house and hang out the other person's house and i think animals do that in general i certainly

00:20:35.080 saw it a lot when i was in mexico that there would be definitely like ownerless dogs that would just be

00:20:41.760 beach dogs that everyone would feed and kind of take care of and the dogs would sleep wherever

00:20:45.240 and they were healthy dogs but no one owned them in particular but i do find it notable that even

00:20:51.640 in scenarios where humans own the cats where you know you can have cats more freely move between

00:20:57.760 houses if they're outdoor cats you still see this this phenomenon well and it's important to understand

00:21:02.200 why dogs were such a useful partner to our early species dogs can help in terms of like their

00:21:08.620 capacity to sense the environment around them they have like i think like 15 000 times our sense of

00:21:15.340 smell and and like i think like 15x our hearing so they make humans they're the first bionic add-on

00:21:22.080 to humans yes they were humans first bionic add-on um and i'd also note here another thing that we

00:21:27.640 mentioned when we write about dogs but people should note this is because dogs have been selected for

00:21:32.540 their love of humans that is one of the things we breed them for they likely experience an emotion

00:21:37.560 towards us which is a louder form of love than any love a human is capable of 100 and we've always

00:21:44.940 said if you really actually if you want one unconditional love don't find a partner don't

00:21:50.540 get a kid yeah no you're only ever going to get unconditional love from a dog no human can give that

00:21:56.860 to you or should be expected to give it to you you know totally but with all of this being the case

00:22:02.860 with dogs being a voluntary and useful partner to humanity i think as we start encountering other

00:22:08.820 species out there in the universe or we start building our own other sentient species and we

00:22:14.520 begin to have to form what is our relationship going to look like with species that are strictly more

00:22:19.700 intelligent than us and when do we decide like where these relationship boundaries go it's gonna be

00:22:25.300 important to us that we have some voluntary relation with another species that we do not

00:22:31.520 factory farm etc right that we treat with a dignity level that is to an extent comparable to human dignity

00:22:38.720 and that is something that i think we should do with dogs and i also think that we have a a moral

00:22:45.740 obligation to if not have dogs on the spaceships we use to colonize the galaxy bring their genetics so that

00:22:53.360 they can be recreated when we get to these environments and potentially even to genetically

00:22:58.260 uplift dogs it wouldn't be that hard to do for example even with our existing technology you could

00:23:02.360 give a dog like pox too and it would likely be able to understand and respond to human speech not with

00:23:07.660 speech but with other things much higher than uh dogs do today from the uh other experiments that we've

00:23:13.420 seen i don't know i feel like this this may just be social media hokum but there are definitely

00:23:19.500 people on social media who set up buttons for their dogs that actually seem to be fairly effective

00:23:24.620 yeah but now the question is what do i think of pitbulls given how much i think of dogs okay yes yeah

00:23:31.320 now get into the controversial stuff that lost a ton of followers i think the prettiest thing is what

00:23:36.160 everyone's gonna freak out about in the comments he wants to genetically modify dogs to be smarter

00:23:40.800 how dare he not i'm not saying today i'm saying eventually okay but the the this is this is where

00:23:48.840 things get spicy i do not think that there is a huge moral negative to neutering the pitbull

00:23:56.580 population for three reasons one is is humans neuter dogs all the time these days yeah humans who love

00:24:05.220 dogs neuter dogs all the time humans neuter humans all the time humans neuter themselves all the time 0.95

00:24:12.820 yeah but i'm talking about the neutering of another being yeah the non-consensual humans should be able 0.99

00:24:18.300 to sterilize another human i don't believe that's morally okay but should a human be able to sterilize

00:24:24.140 a dog absolutely it's something we do all the time as to why there shouldn't be a moral problem with

00:24:32.440 humans neutering dogs if people are wondering like why do i have such a different belief around this

00:24:36.140 than humans it's because dogs breed uncontrollably which can lead to big problems in regions where they

00:24:42.660 are not neutered that lead to more aggregate suffering of canines exactly and humans and so

00:24:49.220 it's strictly and obviously a good thing to do if humans bred like that then it might make sense to

00:24:55.420 consider sterilizing humans but humans don't breed like that so that's not well they don't breed like that

00:25:01.940 anymore you could argue that there was a time when they did uh no i think it was always an illusion

00:25:08.400 but the point being is you're probably right actually if we lived in a world where if you

00:25:14.360 didn't sterilize humans humans would exhaust their food supply and eventually start killing each other

00:25:19.600 that changes the moral equation around sterilization even and we do live in a world and we've seen this

00:25:26.420 because a lot of cultural groups like well my cultural group lodge dogs you want to see more about this

00:25:31.100 year episode why don't jews own guns it's one of our best episodes we've ever done but some groups 0.94

00:25:34.820 like jews and muslims for example are pretty anti-canine historically and in a modern context

00:25:40.220 and just do not historically own dogs and they're what do these cultures have in common they were

00:25:44.740 typically urban focused cultures in the middle ages yeah what did the fiddler on the roof playwright

00:25:49.760 writer say about dogs if a man owns a dog either that dog is no dog or that jew is no jew um there's 0.82

00:25:57.360 a jew owns a dog um so so if people don't know this there's been a lot of papers like i sometimes

00:26:02.620 mention to like jewish friends i'm like you know jews don't own dogs and they're like what do you mean

00:26:06.340 jews don't own dogs i've seen jewish people with dogs i'm like look at the literature jews don't own 1.00

00:26:11.200 dogs and if you look at and we know this goes back to early settlements because we can look at

00:26:15.100 settlements to the ancient israeli period and see that dogs appear very rarely in the jewish

00:26:20.580 cemeteries so we can actually see exactly when this cultural practice came about as to why the

00:26:24.900 practice came about it was because if you're an urban based population typically like urban

00:26:29.800 specialist cultures are typically very wary of dogs because dogs can become major problems like stray

00:26:35.660 dogs in cities and you don't really need them for anything why if i'm in an urban environment do i need

00:26:40.480 to be able to hear 15 times you know more range and smell 15 000 percent stronger if you are a rural

00:26:45.980 person dogs are critical to your way of life so rural cultures usually have a much closer relationship

00:26:51.760 with dogs if you want to get a feeling of is your family from an urban or rural background think what

00:26:57.760 was your parents perspectives on dogs that's the core answer right like are they seen as a moral

00:27:02.720 necessity or are they seen as a moral negative and just a waste but anyway where was i going was this

00:27:07.740 the pitbull scenario okay so one neutering there doesn't appear to be any moral negative to

00:27:13.300 neutering dogs at least within our society and i i i could see the involuntary neutering of an animal

00:27:18.780 as a moral negative if there wasn't the sort of gun to our head of but dogs will just keep breeding

00:27:24.820 until they become a problem to other dogs right so that's one problem the second problem is is then why

00:27:30.460 am i okay with neutering pitbulls specifically the the infant murder machines that they are right like 0.99

00:27:36.880 again you've got to keep in mind 70 dog murder machines even if you don't like humans

00:27:41.220 that that is where it gets it gets for me and i just see no way to defend this pitbulls were

00:27:47.820 selectively bred for their tendency to kill other dogs not for their love of humans not even for their

00:27:56.760 ability to kill humans if you love dogs you should hate pitbulls because even today when we talk about

00:28:04.700 all of the human deaths that result from pitbulls it is nothing it is a drop in the bucket when 0.93

00:28:10.640 contrasted with the pet dog deaths that are due to pitbulls pitbulls kill an average of and this is just

00:28:16.980 in the united states 8730 dogs per year 2904 cats per year and 10 250 other pets and livestock per year

00:28:28.420 in total pitbulls are estimated to kill around 21 886 pets and livestock per year pitbulls were

00:28:35.380 responsible for 81 of the animals killed by dogs in a documented attacks over a 10-year period for

00:28:41.240 attacks on other dogs specifically 90 were carried out by pitbulls all you need to do to top this is

00:28:47.640 neuter pitbulls if you just neutered pitbulls you could within a few years save the lives of around

00:28:54.420 9 000 dogs per year 3 000 cats per year the people who don't do this are genuinely sociopaths given

00:29:02.820 how flippantly we neuter dogs for just about anything else well what if you're not a dog lover

00:29:08.820 and you're just an animal lover in general this report here shows that pitbulls killed 30 times more

00:29:15.640 animals than human crime did in fact it found that pitbulls were 500 times more deadly to other animals

00:29:22.520 and humans than all other dog breeds combined in fact pitbulls that are rehomed by shelters

00:29:29.540 and rescuers killed more animals than persecuted sadists if you are one of those people who's like 0.79

00:29:35.280 but my dog's so nice to me and so sweet looking you come off like one of those parents of a serial

00:29:41.980 killer who's like well my kid was nice at home it's like it doesn't matter a dog can be the sweetest dog

00:29:48.580 in the world you know every hour of a year but one where it murders a toddler that dog was still

00:29:56.000 better off not existing that year that's the problem if you are not weighing the statistics

00:30:03.040 against your emotional connection with a specific dog and the statistics are reality yeah in fact i'd go

00:30:10.480 so far and say that you are probably saving one dog life for every probably hundred pitbulls that

00:30:16.500 are neutered that seems like a safe bet just considering the number of people i think if you 1.00

00:30:21.220 know dog owners you will probably know you know someone who at least knows someone or someone who

00:30:28.140 themselves attacked by not necessarily killed but attacked by for sure a pitbull yeah so the breed

00:30:35.520 a survey 2019 more puppies yet fewer homes for pitbulls shows that there are around 4.5 million pitbulls

00:30:42.500 in the united states if that number is accurate and if the above numbers are accurate that means for

00:30:48.260 every 3.86 pitbulls you neutered you would save the life of one cat or dog over the next hundred years

00:30:56.860 so it is neutering less than four pitbulls for the life of every cat or dog you are saving i just can't

00:31:05.780 understand the moral equation of not neutering four dogs to save the life of one other that dog who is

00:31:14.420 going to die has kids who care about it a family who cares about it people who love it just as much

00:31:20.080 as you love your pitbull and they're not even asking you to put down your pitbull they're just asking you

00:31:25.080 to neuter it that is insanely moral equation at play and this then gets really interesting because

00:31:32.180 well some pitbull owners will be like well but when pitbulls are well raised they don't do this

00:31:37.840 and i'm like then we still need to ban the breed and people are like wait why would you say we still

00:31:44.100 need to ban the breed if it's a problem with the people who are buying them i'm like those people 0.99

00:31:47.620 shouldn't be buying dogs then so we need to ban the breed whatever the desire is that's causing these

00:31:51.640 people to go out and raise them so poorly and you shouldn't have a breed that when it's raised poorly

00:31:55.980 horribly murders other small innocent dogs okay i think another problem too is the one of the the

00:32:03.720 big elements of this controversy is the bully xl which sounds like a uniquely terrifying version of

00:32:11.500 pitbulls but at least is marketed in some corners as a breed of pitbull that is actually much more

00:32:17.660 docile and friendly the problem is that even though it looks really really tough is that

00:32:22.560 you know breeding is not an incredibly well regulated realm it's it's a little kludgy and so 0.98

00:32:29.660 you don't necessarily know if you are getting a docile version someone could tell you that this pitbull

00:32:36.640 that they're selling to you for between one and five thousand dollars or more is a bully xl and is

00:32:42.580 docile and will be super nice to your kids and won't hurt a fly but you really can't know that

00:32:48.760 for sure it's not safe there's a reason that if under one year olds 48 of them that were killed by

00:32:54.620 a dog were killed by a pitbull you know that's mostly the dog owners own children or children that

00:32:59.760 they are babysitting like that is horrifying that we are allowing this to happen these are infant

00:33:04.600 murder machines these are toddler killing machines that is what they do and again i should note here

00:33:11.860 that even if the owners and this is what really gets me with the pitbull owners they'll go out and

00:33:15.600 when people are like look we really shouldn't allow like we need to and i'm not saying we should kill

00:33:19.520 pitbulls just saying we should neuter pitbulls when they're like oh presumably make their sale and 1.00

00:33:25.360 breeding illegal yeah how dare you do this because we we like pitbulls because they're so sweet and kind

00:33:33.860 and it's like yeah but i can look at the ads of the pitbull breeders and i can see that functionally

00:33:38.440 that's not the case the high value pitbulls are being sold because of their adjacency to savagery

00:33:44.460 and some of the like pitbull ads here they're like this is this is like king cyrus the murder machine

00:33:50.500 he can murder 10 infants in a day no they won't they won't obviously they don't mention the infant

00:33:56.000 murder but they just you know mention how tough and strong and savage they are because individuals who

00:34:00.920 buy them are using them to modify their own self-image often yeah sure buy dogs and this is

00:34:08.760 where i'm like okay well maybe these people are actually of this category of it's the it's the

00:34:15.120 owner's fault because they are buying a dog they want to make them appear like a savage tough individual

00:34:19.260 and so they are training it to be savage and tough fine doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't have

00:34:24.220 this breed right when you consider that you are literally like how many dog neuters is a human

00:34:31.380 child not being horribly savaged worth right like i just don't understand the moral equivalency here

00:34:38.800 when you could get another kind of dog yeah and that's the thing is there are so many amazing dog

00:34:45.360 breeds out there and dog breeds that are super tough too yeah you just there are lots of hunting dogs

00:34:51.820 out there there are lion killers you could get a rhodesian ridge back you could get all sorts of

00:34:56.360 very interesting and and tough and protective but also sweet dogs this is not going to be a challenge

00:35:04.800 for you it just seems so unambiguous that pitbulls are a step too far yeah very polarizing we're

00:35:11.780 definitely gonna lose followers i think this is a lot like korean k-pop stans and taylor swift fans

00:35:19.460 no no no no here if we have somebody who disagrees with us on this i i need them to answer a question

00:35:24.000 okay so let's let's deal with it let's bring the numbers down a bit so that they can understand

00:35:30.080 would they neuter one pitbull if it saved the life of one child okay and from being horribly horribly

00:35:38.880 murdered a toddler a three-year-old horribly murdered and then i say okay they're like well of course i

00:35:43.640 neuter one pitbull if it did that people neuter pitbulls all the time right you know for different 0.98

00:35:47.880 reasons i'd say well would you neuter 10 pitbulls to save the life of one child one toddler i'm like

00:35:53.940 what number what's the number that's too high for you what's the number of pitbulls to save the life 0.74

00:35:59.220 of a three-year-old that is too high for you because categorically by the data you can save a lot of

00:36:07.300 individual toddler lives by doing this and other dog lives right like at what what about another dog

00:36:14.300 so i want two numbers here how many pitbulls need to be neutered for the life of another dog that was 1.00

00:36:19.120 horribly mutilated yeah and how many for a toddler and if you're just like not i wouldn't even neuter

00:36:24.220 one pitbull for one child then we don't want you as a follower i guess that's yeah like you you're

00:36:29.100 there's seriously something wrong in your ethical equations of reality given that people neuter pitbulls

00:36:34.840 all the time get out of my pocket population control you can see the door walk through it

00:36:41.380 okay yeah i get you and that's that's entirely fair uh because i i need to know how they are

00:36:47.300 internally constructing this argument because what they do is they don't do redirect the argument

00:36:53.440 they're like well it's not the dog's fault it's the owner's fault yeah or or well then you should

00:36:58.600 accept bully bullies xl because they they're docile but then you know how do you differentiate

00:37:04.820 yeah but then the question is then why aren't you campaigning if you want the bully xls to be the 0.62

00:37:09.920 thing then you need a better system for determining which ones are the bully xls and you need to work on

00:37:14.800 a breeding program to make them more docile and you more than anyone should want to get rid of these

00:37:18.980 other pitbulls that are giving the bully xls a bad name right but you don't do this i don't see the

00:37:24.580 people defending bully xls saying but of course we need to neuter the other pitbulls they're just

00:37:29.860 they're just trying to redirect attention it's like well we need to neuter pitbulls and they're like

00:37:33.680 well what about bully xls or it's well what about the bad owners or this whole thing is i think more

00:37:39.180 largely it reminds me of arguments around abortion it reminds me of arguments around immigration i think

00:37:45.400 that that we have as a society become at all really no i know hear me out here

00:37:54.560 i think people have come to a way of dealing with ideas where it's no longer about the facts it's

00:38:01.800 about once you've established your side your goal is to defend your mind from any ideas that are

00:38:09.220 offensive to it and that is an outcropping of disagree really okay why i think that that is

00:38:16.080 something that happens however i think that if you are talking about immigration or you are talking about

00:38:22.700 abortion abortion there are genuine well-intentioned people with logically sound structures for arguing

00:38:30.980 on both sides of these topics i have my own positions on these topics but i think that there

00:38:36.360 are individuals who seriously listen to all the evidence and have seriously thought through

00:38:39.920 like different positions who genuinely fall on either side of this issue i do not believe

00:38:45.560 there is a single well-intentioned person who has really thought through all of the arguments on the

00:38:52.800 we should not neuter pitbull side of this argument i do not think that there is a logical structure

00:38:58.060 when you consider how lightly neutering is treated in our society for not neutering pitbulls and i will

00:39:05.740 tell you the best argument for not neutering pitbulls and then i will tell you why it doesn't even work

00:39:10.180 okay the single best argument that you can create for not neutering pitbulls is the don't take my gun

00:39:16.620 argument that is to say well yes i agree that i want a pitbull instead of another dog because of the

00:39:22.620 effect that the pitbull has on my personal self-identity right i'm i i need it to be who it's a deadly

00:39:28.880 weapon yeah and it may be a deadly weapon but americans should be allowed to own deadly weapons right 0.88

00:39:36.660 and we argue that here's the problem okay a pitbull is closer to an autonomous ai with guns set up on

00:39:48.380 it that is that is trained to in some instances kill people do you think humans should be allowed

00:39:54.620 to own kill but like kill drones that and and i actually i'd even go so far as to say humans should

00:40:01.780 be allowed to own kill drones but i don't think they should be allowed to own kill drones that are

00:40:06.420 constantly circling their house and sometimes randomly shoot people that's where i'd be like 0.84

00:40:11.440 obviously a human should not be allowed to own that are you insane well or kill drones with any 0.80

00:40:17.480 any track record of being a public safety threat which is to say if a kill drone were to attack

00:40:23.880 civilians or civilians fill a pets obviously those would be considered extremely dangerous and

00:40:30.720 unpredictable pieces of technology that would be immediately banned and yet when this happens with dogs

00:40:35.400 for some reason it's not banned with you know intensity you're absolutely right yeah and this

00:40:44.720 is a but there's the secondary reason which is to say i don't defend people's right to keep guns

00:40:52.420 because of how guns positively augment their self-image i defend that right for two core reasons one is

00:40:58.580 that in certain parts of america guns are necessary for self-defense if you were in an extremely rural area

00:41:03.320 where it takes 30 minutes for the cops to get to your house or an hour for the cops to get to your

00:41:06.420 house you need guns i'm sorry well but also you know guns are are sort of what prevent takeovers of

00:41:13.720 but that's the other core reason is that guns are a part of our checks and balances system in the united

00:41:19.280 states and people are like no do guns really help in like a drone fight do guns really help like

00:41:26.100 if the u.s military wanted to take over and it's like absolutely yes we we if you even look at like

00:41:33.200 hamas's raid in israel if more of these families had been armed and the families that were armed had

00:41:39.180 a very easy time fighting them off the the core reason they got hit so bad was just the jewish 1.00

00:41:44.060 cultural predilection to not own guns at high rates another really interesting thing about these

00:41:48.400 raids that a lot of people don't know is the settlements that really got brutalized were

00:41:52.140 not the conservative religious settlements they were mostly spared it was the loosey-goosey 1.00

00:41:57.980 kibbutzes that were sort of like hippie nonsense like let's get along with them it was like the peace 0.92

00:42:03.680 concert that ended up getting absolutely massacred where nobody had guns it was not the groups that

00:42:08.480 were like hey we need to be worried about these people we really need to you know be harsher in these

00:42:13.080 scenarios that had to deal with with that much bloodshed because they understood the risk and they were

00:42:18.240 armed so that's important to note as well there are externalities to guns that don't exist with

00:42:23.740 pitbulls if you can explain to me an externality that can be resolved by a pitbull that either makes

00:42:29.920 you safer as a citizen okay or that makes us safer from like a democratic standpoint i will take that

00:42:38.540 argument as well i just haven't heard one a pitbull is genuinely differentially not better in a military

00:42:47.500 context than a rottweiler which already exists like why are you using a pitbull and not a rottweiler

00:42:53.640 if you're using it for fighting humans pitbulls are just toddler murder machines they're not really

00:42:59.220 useful for anything else they're useful for that and killing dogs horribly horrifically anyway any other

00:43:06.260 thoughts nope we like dogs we'll take dogs to space but yeah we we only i think you know what actually

00:43:16.420 this is very similar to our cultural viewpoint which is that we we ultimately support pluralism

00:43:22.420 and human groups that play nice with other human groups and if you can't play nice then we have

00:43:29.660 no interest that's actually a really good point is people wonder why we're both so pluralistic but so

00:43:34.940 quick to turn our back on any group that just attacks another group and say okay they lost their

00:43:39.580 right to exist but that's the way that we we play more broadly yeah i am okay with pluralism but if you

00:43:45.280 run out and attack your neighbors the pluralistic protection that i culturally believe that every

00:43:52.060 human has a right to is immediately revoked from your group and yeah like we support human flourishing

00:43:58.300 insofar as you do you are not a net drag on human flourishing and we promote dog flourishing insofar

00:44:03.720 as it is not a net drag on dog flourishing and it would seem that pitbulls are broadly a net drag on

00:44:12.440 canine flourishing so yeah love you did us simone you are so special and amazing i love you uh i just

00:44:19.300 got a call from george can you call him back to see what he wanted i'll call him would you mind

00:44:22.560 getting the kids yes and i'll bring my food down and make you some fried rice tonight with oyster sauce

00:44:27.360 will do an egg or no egg egg please we've got chickens for a reason spring onions but no

00:44:34.040 vegetables i'd actually love it if you put in some other vegetables i got like a frozen vegetable pack

00:44:39.680 that could be good for uh stir fry that would go pretty well with fried rice okay i'll see what i

00:44:44.800 can do there that's what i got it for you know it's got like baby corn and yeah all right we'll give

00:44:49.380 it a try love you love you too i'll call what it's impossible yes all right

00:45:01.180 they've been asking for you oh it says i love you oh my gosh it's a heart

00:45:06.460 oh no

00:45:09.160 wow

00:45:11.560 you can come sit with me

00:45:16.820 that was the best thing ever

00:45:21.080 one

00:45:22.120 you

00:45:36.660 you

00:45:38.420 you

00:45:38.740 you

00:45:41.000 you

00:45:41.740 you

Based Camp - October 30, 2024

Genetics, Dogs, & Pit Bulls： The One Good Genocide

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