In this episode, we explore the concept of the pod person reaction, which is the emotional response of unease combined with an uncanny valley feeling that some people experience when they encounter individuals who exhibit a specific set of behavioral patterns. This reaction has been used to build an entire subgenre of horror: pod people. We explore why people who elicit this reaction have historically been drawn to specific religious communities with a focus on Mormonism.
00:07:58.140This instinctual reaction is why the Mormon cultural group, and you can see it very clearly on this population map, never crossed either into the greater Appalachian cultural region or the Midlands cultural region, which probably have a similar instinctual reaction.
00:08:16.000And you can see it, like, night and day on this map.
00:08:20.220It's like there was a wall that prevented Mormon culture from moving in that direction.
00:08:24.180And here I would note something if you're coming into this episode without seeing the last one.
00:08:27.520There was a weird phenomenon over the past, I'd say, maybe eight years or so, where almost all of the Mormons who coded as pod person left the church and became woke.
00:08:39.040So I haven't met a Mormon personally who coded pod person in maybe eight years.
00:08:44.940But this doesn't change that historically Mormons were the group that most commonly coded pod person.
00:08:50.120Note, within Mormon culture, the words that are used for somebody who triggers the pod person instinct are Zuby, Peter Priesthood, or Molly Mormon.
00:09:01.340If you happen to be a Mormon and you're like, which Mormons are triggering this instinct?
00:09:04.760The ones that Mormons use those words for derogatorily, those are the ones that are triggering the instinct.
00:09:13.100It turns out that ultra-wokeism was just a much stronger lure for people with this pod person mental framework than, well, really any religion.
00:09:25.520And I think Mormonism is probably better off for it.
00:09:28.320And so if the Mormons are like, why would we be triggering whatever, like, unity from Rick and Morty is supposed to be parroting, parroting, like, in other people, like, whatever the deep, like, shiver up the spine that this is meant to trigger as, like, a horror trope, I think as soon as you see that these are the signs that are most associated with the truth, you're like, oh, yeah, that's why we're triggering it.
00:09:51.420Then I found this world where I was better able to focus on my passion for unification.
00:10:20.800I'd also note here something you saw in both of these clips that is really common in pod person tropes.
00:10:26.020Is that pod people neither drink alcohol nor do drugs.
00:10:29.700Also, just as a quick side note here, if somebody who's from a culture that doesn't drink alcohol wants to understand why cultures that drink alcohol value it so much,
00:10:39.900The core value of alcohol is it allows me, when I am getting to know an individual, to see the parts of their personality that they might be suppressing, you know, through their inhibitory pathways in their prefrontal cortex, because it lowers their ability to inhibit certain behavior patterns.
00:10:57.360Which is the saying, drunk words are sober thoughts, comes from.
00:11:02.140This is why individuals from drinking cultures often don't trust or have an intrinsic distrust of individuals from non-drinking cultures.
00:11:11.080And I think individuals from non-drinking cultures may sometimes be confused by this distrust if it's not explicitly spelled out to them.
00:11:19.460Gary thinks we should keep up with the crawl, because they know what we're doing, but they don't know that we know what they're doing.
00:11:25.660And basically, no one else has a better idea.
00:11:35.700One is this concern that literally your entire self and identity are basically being killed and you're being worn like a mask or a costume.
00:11:44.060But then there's the version of it where, like the Steppard Wives version, where you're just kind of corrected.
00:11:51.160There are versions where you're corrected or sort of given the equivalent of a lobotomy, but a little bit more refined.
00:12:22.720And we know women who've converted into it because they see the lifestyle and they say, I want that.
00:12:28.700And maybe that is, this pod person reaction is on average more male.
00:12:35.980And I noticed that you're delineating a separate sub-genre of the pod person movie, which is what I call the medicated pod person, which is like they try to give you some medication that makes you like this other group of people that is all really like, doesn't have a lot of emotions, you know, is otherwise really like clean, conformed, doesn't break rules.
00:12:56.760And this is another sub-genre of the pod person trope.
00:13:01.980On the next all new episode of Sliders, imagine a world where the government regulates drugs.
00:13:22.560I'd also note here, if you're a little confused, you're like, wait, I thought the pod person trope was associated with abstinence from alcohol and drugs.
00:13:42.120And yet here you're saying there's a sub-genre of it that is focused on using a specific type of drug.
00:13:48.160And I would note here that the specific type of drug that's used is always coded to be the type of drug you would get from a psychiatrist, not coded to be a recreational drug.
00:14:00.200So when the pod person trope is coded as pod people don't do drugs, the type of drugs that they don't do is always something like alcohol or very light narcotics.
00:15:39.540There are standard scene and urban monocultural outfits that are built to fit a trope.
00:15:46.920People with a strong pod person reaction or are from one of these cultures like this, when they're going through their teen rebellion phase, they typically dress in a way that doesn't fit any of the mainstream tropes.
00:16:00.220Like they become hypersensitive to not fitting any of the mainstream tropes.
00:16:04.640I can post pictures of myself from when I was a kid.
00:16:07.020One of the examples is, you know, when I go to other countries, I pick up a lot of like rice picker hats or whatever, like other weird things, just so I couldn't be accused of trying to fit in with any specific trope.
00:16:19.060And so I find that really interesting as well, that it seems to lead to these specific subcultural patterns.
00:16:26.740But I don't want to spoil the lead here.
00:16:31.740You know, when he's like, okay, why would they react so strongly to my ancestors like this?
00:16:38.120Like your ancestors react so strongly to my ancestors.
00:16:40.380And I know the sort of sub-emotional class that I am repressing when I'm interacting with certain groups, it very much to me felt a bit like, you know, when a non-passing trans person is like, why do these people, you know, not just treat me like I'm a woman?
00:16:56.620And I, you know, I'm not going to say to them, you do not understand how much I am repressing, like an evolved instinctual part of me that is screaming run in the back of my head when I am interacting with you or when you're interacting, not just like, like to remove common politics today, like a leper.
00:17:14.280Like if you are talking with somebody who has very serious deformities, there's a part in the back of your head that's like, you could catch a disease, run, run, run, you know, kill it with fire.
00:17:23.980And you silence that part of your head because we have a cultural framework and a moral framework that operates above sort of our pre-evolved, this thing could be diseased or this thing could be a cultural threat.
00:17:51.540And I think that if you don't realize, and I suspect some people must transition without knowing that a lot of people have this really, really strong and visceral emotional reaction to trans people who aren't passing.
00:18:06.520Because I don't know if anyone who felt that would transition.
00:18:10.520Well, I don't know, you have to ask though, how do they feel?
00:18:16.540I'm sure most people who have transitioned have encountered someone else who is in the act of transitioning who is not passing.
00:18:26.840No, but the point being, Simone, and this is a, this is the key point of this, is you're assuming that all humans experience all of the emotional subsets of all other humans.
00:18:36.900So what you're saying is, is that people who transition are among those who wouldn't have that reaction to people who are poorly transitioning?
00:18:44.940So they just don't see what the problem would be.
00:18:46.520Or they have it at a lower volume than other people.
00:18:49.400They may not fully recognize how loudly some people have this reaction.
00:18:56.140And that it's not a socialized reaction, it's an evolved reaction.
00:18:59.640It's, you know, used to keep us away from, well, somebody that could be diseased.
00:19:05.200As a quick side note here, the last episode we did on this subject did draw out one person in the comments who was clearly of this pod person mentality,
00:19:13.140demanding that we go along with the church name change from Mormon or LDS church to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the Church of Jesus Christ,
00:19:27.340which, of course, no one's going to do, that, like, pretends like it's the only Christian church because it's, quote-unquote, offensive to say Mormon.
00:19:34.420And, of course, here I am, like, well, I bet you say Quaker.
00:19:36.960Like, do you even know what Quakers are really supposed to be called?
00:19:46.680But as a side here, this to me really reminded me of the whole trans thing.
00:19:52.400It's like, you know, when I'm talking to a trans person, if they just want to be called he, him, or she, her, I'm going to go along with it.
00:20:03.060I may, while I'm talking to them, have to constantly be thinking, remember, remember, remember to use the right pronouns.
00:20:09.880And I don't really believe this person is a she, her, but I try my best to be polite.
00:20:14.960However, when they come to me with something absolutely ridiculous, like some made-up pronouns that I need to remember just for them,
00:20:22.400there's a line where I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that.
00:20:25.280If the Mormon church had said something like, okay, you can't call us Mormon anymore, but you can call us LDS, I would have been like, okay.
00:20:33.680Every time I said LDS, I would have been thinking Mormon, but I would have gone along with it.
00:20:39.680But when they came up with the absolutely insane, the Church of Jesus Christ, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I'm like, no, I'm not doing that.
00:20:49.380And that's basically the way everyone was reacting to that.
00:20:52.340And the reason I say that this is a good sign of a pod person is expecting people to go along with this name change shows a complete inability to model other humans.
00:21:02.460And carries very strong energy of that kid who bought one of those land titles in Scotland off of YouTube and now goes around demanding everybody call him Baron.
00:21:12.180So not all of the pod people have left the Mormon church, but the vast majority have.
00:21:17.100Or the, the, I think a lot of these reactions that, that sort of target the uncanny valley for people who aren't familiar with that.
00:21:24.600That's something that looks like a little too close to human, but isn't fully human.
00:21:27.940And that is the emotional subset that's being triggered here.
00:21:31.140It's the uncanny valley emotional subset.
00:21:34.980For example, both you and your brother, so this is why I think maybe it's genetic, are extremely squeamish around blemishes, like unpopped pimples.
00:21:46.000And you cannot hear yourselves think over one on your face or that face of anyone around you.
00:21:54.560Well, that's a loud, for example, this is, this is the thing.
00:21:58.500Everybody is squeamish to an extent around you.
00:22:00.860And no one wants to look at them, but you guys can't unsee them.
00:22:04.280You know, you're, you're like volumes of this.
00:22:07.580Our volume on this is super high, but I would say that the emotion I'm experiencing, right?
00:22:13.980Like in the same way that like, if you don't experience this emotional subset, it's useful that somebody is like, no, the emotion doesn't feel like a disgust.
00:22:23.280The emotion that I feel around blemishes is a disgust emotional subset.
00:22:28.380This is an uncanny valley emotional subset, which is very different from the disgust.
00:22:35.380It's like, is this similar to the fear you feel when you are sitting next to a woman in like full contour makeup where you're like, she's creeping me out where it's like that.
00:22:47.620Yes. So an uncanny valley emotional subset, not disgust emotional subset.
00:22:51.880Now I, I, I then had a second realization that was really, really big for me is we started going through, because I was going through pictures of Mormons.
00:23:02.220We were looking at like the thing that we mentioned in the last one that actually middling religion Mormons are the Mormons that fertility is increasing as time goes on.
00:23:10.640Whereas extreme religiosity Mormons are the Mormons who fertility is decreasing as time goes on.
00:23:16.180So I've been trying, you know, what's going on here?
00:23:19.360Are there specific subgroups of extreme religiosity Mormons that are not having their fertility decrease?
00:23:26.760And what I basically found when going through pictures and talking more with this guy is that there are the ones who don't activate the pod person instinct in me are not having their fertility decline.
00:23:40.360And then that got me really interesting.
00:23:43.180I'm like, okay, so what's the core difference between these two groups, right?
00:23:47.680And previously, I believe I had mischaracterized it.
00:23:50.640I thought the core difference was deontological versus consequentialist ethics and that religious systems that pushed for behavioral patterns through deontological frameworks were doing poorly.
00:24:02.280And once it pushed through patterns for consequentialist ethics, we're doing well.
00:24:06.980And then I realized I might be thinking about this all wrong.
00:24:10.620It might be moral systems based around conformity, moral systems that are based around conformity to the group of the whole conformist moral systems are doing really poorly and clan based moral systems are doing really well.
00:24:26.980And then, so to word this differently, it turns out if the thing that was causing your ancestors to have lots of babies was that they were given a set of very strict rules that they had to follow, also a deontological framework, in the past that was good at motivating fertility rates, in modern times it's not.
00:24:48.880If the thing that was caused if the thing that was causing your ancestors to have babies in the past was that they had a degree of pride in who they were and a degree of cultural pride in their family or some small group to which they're part of, not some large, giant religious organization, that seems to be very, very good at resisting fertility collapse.
00:25:10.980And so then I took this hypothesis and I started asking people I knew in different religious enclaves, I asked a Catholic I knew, the Catholics you know who were like really strict about all the deontological rules, are they the ones having the most kids or is it the ones who take a lot of pride in a family and then likely national, like I am an O'Sheen and I am an Irishman and I am a Catholic, right?
00:25:34.140Like is it a, I am a Catholic, I am an Irishman, I am an O'Sheen, or is it a, I am an O'Sheen, I am an Irishman, I am a Catholic?
00:25:42.200And it turned out that the clan-based one, where their primary identity with the smaller group, was doing really well across every single religious tradition.
00:25:55.040And then I began to look at this more on a global scale, right?
00:25:58.700So it's not just the regions of the United States, because I'll put a map here, and the greater Appalachian region had the most clan-based culture, which was backwards, and you'll see it overlaps highly with fertility rates.
00:26:07.040But then if you look globally, which are the cultures that are suffering the most?
00:26:11.080It is the collectivist cultures, the Koreans and the Japanese and the Chinese.
00:26:16.560And I'd make a note here, if people are like, oh, the Asian cultures are very clan-based, they have things like shrines to their ancestors and stuff.
00:26:23.280And it's like, superficially, yes, but if you look at the cultural norms, even in a historic context, when a Japanese person or a Chinese person or a Korean was attempting to determine what should be the social norms that their family acted within,
00:26:40.200they did not look primarily to other family members.
00:26:42.800What was happening at the court or at the higher levels of the social hierarchy mattered a lot more to determining what their family culture should be like and what their own morals should be like.
00:26:53.280than their parents specifically or their siblings specifically.
00:26:56.840And then if you look regionally, which sub-regional areas, if I put a map of Asia on here, are doing really well, the Mongols.
00:27:04.400The Mongols have a clan-based cultural identity system.
00:27:08.220And note here that this is not talking about individualism.
00:27:11.900The problem with individualist systems is many people used to see identity as being either collectivist or individualist.
00:27:18.000The problem is, is that wokeism and the urban monoculture basically found out how to co-opt individualist moral systems into a collectivist framework.
00:27:27.840A great way that one of the people I was talking to put it is the horror of it is the reaction against hyper-NPC-ism and the Koskaetska-like state of existence.
00:27:40.360It's that these people look like us, but are not us.
00:27:44.420Whites also experience this to some level interacting with Russians, but clearly there's obvious differences.
00:27:49.520It's the uncanny valley but with real people.
00:27:51.980Two groups of people oppose the wokes.
00:27:54.040Ones in the religious communities, which sort of feel that these people are other or different from my religion and my cultural framing.
00:28:03.420But then the others just hate anyone who's telling other people to conform.
00:28:09.760And that was really interesting to me when I was like, that makes perfect sense.
00:28:16.520And it also explains the political realignment in the country.
00:28:19.580Which is to say that the right used to be made up of a collection of religious communities that wanted everyone to conform to their values.
00:28:28.320And so they sort of cross-referenced all of the religious communities and they're like, okay, what values can we agree on?
00:28:34.440Now we're going to call these the Judeo-Christian set of values and we're going to try to get everyone to conform to them.
00:28:39.480And then the wokes rose and all of the Klan-based people were like, oh my gosh, I hate you, you know, kill it with fire.
00:28:52.100And then they moved over to the right coalition and this is why they're the core of Trump's base.
00:29:00.300So if you look at a voter map that divides the different American like sub-national groups, I'm going to put it on the screen here.
00:29:06.400A lot of people think the Republican Party's key is the Deep South, but it's not.
00:31:28.060I'm allergic to other people's rules and standards, but that doesn't mean that I can't find the concept of a cohesive community to be attractive.
00:31:38.940Then why did you resist it your entire life?
00:31:59.060And it comes from something else that's happened between the two of us.
00:32:02.380There have been multiple instances when, like, someone at a table has been crying, and afterwards I go to Simone, and I was like, oh my god, could you believe?
00:32:09.460You, due to your autism, are very, very, very bad at modeling other people.
00:32:14.700It might be some degree of modeling other people when you're in a culture that has this ultra desire to not conform that triggers this instinct.
00:32:24.180Because you don't model people, you aren't sitting there being like, there's something very wrong about the model I'm building of this person.
00:32:38.020I've been thinking about this line more as I was editing this, and that's what creates a feeling of unease.
00:32:44.860It's when you mentally model somebody, you're essentially creating an emulation of that person in your head to attempt to predict how they will react to whatever you say.
00:32:55.480Mental models are something that people create every day.
00:32:57.540Like, when you have an argument with somebody, and then later you go and you mentally argue with them in your head, you have created a mental model of them.
00:33:06.800A sort of sub-process in your brain that's essentially an emulation of their mind.
00:33:11.740Different people build these emulations with different amounts of clarity.
00:33:16.240And some people are just sort of always building emulations, some people almost never build emulations.
00:33:22.320People with some forms of autism, like the type that Simone has, seem to be completely incapable of building these emulations at all.
00:33:29.140When I create emulations of people who have this pod person mindset, the emulations create this intrinsic feeling of unease within me.
00:33:44.800They're so easy to predict, it's almost like there isn't a full human operating underneath them.
00:33:52.020In Warhammer lore, this would be like trying to read the mind of a psychic blank.
00:33:57.380You would just get reverberation feedback that would cause you great mental pain and feel very sort of hollow and desolate.
00:34:05.660And worse than that, they are extremely interchangeable with other individuals from their sort of pod tribe when you try to model them.
00:34:16.880So, if I'm trying to model two people from the same group and they fall into this, they will, for all intensive purposes, be operating under the same model.
00:34:26.340Which feels very inhuman if you're not used to being around these groups.
00:34:31.720It feels very much like, well, I guess that's why it triggers that pod person.
00:34:35.520That's why in the pod people movies, they create these pleasant, simplistic entities to trigger this.
00:34:43.400And I'm curious if the listeners slash watchers that are on the spectrum feel the same way, where they're like very confused about this whole pod person thing.
00:34:52.880But then the higher modeling ability, more schizoid people watching are really like getting what you're saying.
00:35:01.060I would be so curious to see if it comes down to that.
00:35:04.660That it's more the fear that emanates from being able to kind of model very conformist people on a societal basis.
00:35:14.220And not so much the fact that they're behaving cohesively.
00:35:18.300And I think that would also explain why this doesn't trigger when you're traveling in a foreign land that's very conformist.
00:35:25.640Because you're not really able to model them.
00:35:28.260But then after you get a little bit more time around them and you're modeling, like algorithm comes online for that new group, then they freak you out.
00:35:37.300Well, they also don't feel like an infiltrating group.
00:35:40.340I mean, one of the things that's common in all of the horror around this is a new family comes to town where everyone is pleasant and everyone is cheery and they don't seem to have any problems.
00:35:50.880And then over time, more families start acting like this and more families start acting like this.
00:35:55.900It's also a degree of like they're taking over.
00:37:07.880Yeah, and the, well, so one thing that's important to note about this, because it was something I noted when I was thinking more about it,
00:37:16.520is there's a weird sort of tradition among the Klan cultures that is essentially used as like a pod person test.
00:37:26.520So in the movie, The Faculty, there is a scene where they have a dehydrated that they're using to see if one of the people has become one of the pod people.
00:37:36.160And they're like, you have to do the dehydrated so I know if you're really one of the pod people or not.
00:37:40.280How do we know you're not one of those fucking things?
00:37:48.200I'm not putting that hack drug up my nose.
00:38:26.240Everyone on 4chan being so vulgar and mean to each other is really an inoculation or a weeding effect, getting rid of anyone who would be an outsider.
00:39:48.740Like, it's because it's a very good example of this form of vulgarity.
00:39:52.460It is something that if you were a pod person, you wouldn't be able to do because you're so concerned about what the conformity of society thinks about you.
00:40:00.820But that most normal people are, most men think are hot.
00:40:06.380And if you didn't, like the natural reaction of a clan person to one person in a friend group being catgirls are hot is not, if they don't think catgirls are hot, to say, I don't think that and only a weirdo would think that.
00:40:20.740It's to find something that is equally taboo to admit about themselves that's vulgar.
00:40:27.100Something they find hot that might break some taboo.
00:40:29.500Because then it becomes sort of a competition around saying a taboo thing to prove you're not actually a pod person.
00:40:38.260And then the other person responds to something slightly more taboo.
00:40:43.480And you don't see it in these groups all the time.
00:40:45.680And it's how you gain entrance often into their communities.
00:40:48.720In the last episode, you may remember, I mentioned that at a couple of the late night VC parties that were focused around this clan-based culture,
00:40:54.880that there were fights where a couple of the women who were high-powered VCs themselves or otherwise prominent figures would fight for the men.
00:41:05.800And you wouldn't want a pod person at one of these events.
00:41:12.880Because they would immediately go, quote unquote, tell on you, say, oh, they did something naughty and vulgar at their event.
00:41:57.640The thing to keep in mind, though, is it actually really matters now that you're getting shadow banned from this section of society if you don't know how to code switch.
00:42:05.600Because, as I've mentioned, the venture capital world is increasingly being taken over by these clan-based cultures.
00:42:11.100And so vulgarity is used as a shit test, basically, within a lot of these Silicon Valley-type cultures to make sure you're not a narc.
00:42:20.700Like, not a narc-nark, but you know what I mean.
00:42:22.740Like, if you go to a party, are you going to be a problem later?
00:42:25.280Are you going to be, you know, horrified?
00:42:27.380Uh, that is, that's one of the, uh, better Jesus sports-themed paintings I've seen.
01:09:09.260I have this feeling like individualistic culture is what the urban monoculture is all about.
01:09:23.940It's about isolating people into something where they don't have anything larger to adhere to.
01:09:29.940It's only them, and it's only their immediate feelings.
01:09:32.160So what you're noticing is, first, the urban monoculture has to turn somebody into an individualist before it can erase them.
01:09:40.300Or it has to conquer their bureaucracy, which means it can conquer collectivists really easily as well.
01:09:45.180But once somebody's an individualist, then the urban monoculture, which is very anti-individualist, the urban monoculture doesn't say, be whatever you want to be.
01:09:53.760It says you have to think this, you have to do this, you have to have this value set.
01:09:57.700But basically, it's a divide-and-conquer strategy.
01:10:00.380The individualists, because they have to fight alone, basically, end up getting wiped out really quickly by it.
01:10:12.680And they can think, oh, well, we'll all fight together.
01:10:15.540But it turns out that because the urban monoculture is like, well, but we're just about enabling new types of individualism and new ways of being affirmed.
01:10:24.980It's very easy to sort of get in that back door and split off the factions of the individualist culture so that there is no fighting back against it.
01:10:42.820I wanted to do some final thoughts here on the future of Mormonism because we've sort of had a three-episode arc that talked a lot about Mormonism
01:10:51.540and was inspired by statistics of what's going on within the Mormon church.
01:10:55.880One is, like, what's the future of Mormonism going to be?
01:11:00.480And I think that right now we are at an inflection point for the Mormon identity that is as big,
01:11:07.900and the types of people who are Mormons will change as much as the changeover from the original Joseph Smith days
01:11:17.260to the settlement of Utah days or the polygynous days to the post-polygynous days.
01:11:23.580And I think that it's driven by two things.
01:11:26.440First was when the Mormon church decided to promote the COVID vaccine,
01:11:32.420and a lot of Mormons were—and this is what we were talking about.
01:11:37.240The Mormons who seem to have more kids are the Mormons who take pride in Mormonism and utilize Mormonism,
01:11:44.220but when the church tells them to do something that goes against their own identity or conscience or clan morals,
01:11:51.420they're like, no, F off. I'm not taking the vaccine.
01:11:54.580And so a lot of these individuals ended up temporarily sort of splitting from the church,
01:12:00.280not going into bad standing, but re-changing how they think about and interact with the hierarchical system of the church.
01:12:07.920And I think that this was actually very healthy for the church,
01:12:10.640because I often hear my Mormon friends be like, well, what's going to happen to the church
01:12:14.560if the central bureaucracy goes woke or gets captured by wokeism?
01:12:19.240And here I would point them, I'm like, well, you have people like Pichy Keenan,
01:12:22.700who, you know, we interviewed recently who is a Catholic,
01:12:25.220and her community of Catholics feels like the pope, compared to their value set, is a far woke extremist.
01:12:32.040And yet they are still staying within the church.
01:12:34.520And I suspect that Mormonism might have a similar thing.
01:12:37.460They just change how they relate to the central hierarchy.
01:12:40.680And I think that you sort of had this prototyped with the COVID mandates,
01:12:45.600which is to say the church did something that was woke and people didn't leave.
01:12:49.980They didn't split off and start some new church.
01:12:52.260They're like, okay, we'll tolerate this until we can recapture the central bureaucracy.
01:12:56.620So I think that the Mormons can learn a lot from the Catholics in that respect,
01:13:00.300in terms of how they related to that event.