John Money： How an Embodiment of Evil Invented Gender & Sexual Orientation
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
177.90083
Summary
In this episode, we talk about the man who invented the concept of gender and sexual preference, Dr. John M. Money. He was a prominent psychologist and sexologist who was a pioneer in psychology and sexology in the 20th century. His work was groundbreaking but became controversial, especially due to his experiments on gender reassignment, most notably the case of David R. Ramire.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
hello simone today we are going to be talking about the monster who invented the concept
00:00:06.640
of gender and sexual preference when i say monster is not a monster because he invented
00:00:13.260
these concepts or or popularized them at least but for the things that he did in his life and i
00:00:18.900
don't think that anyone who hears this story is going to say any word but monster should be used
00:00:25.540
to describe this individual whoa or just just to go over the gist of it basically a young kid was
00:00:36.020
assigned as a woman at birth because he had a botched circumcision and this guy had him raised
00:00:43.720
as a woman and then while they were still under age forced him and his brother to have sex and
00:00:50.500
filmed it and took lots of pictures oh and then he wrote a bunch of papers about how this person was
00:00:57.700
was a perfectly normal woman now and then the doctors started taking either botched circumcision
00:01:04.220
or intersex patients and doing these procedures on them like removing their genitals and stuff
00:01:10.040
even though it turns out that he had lied in all of his research and the kid actually had committed
00:01:15.980
unaliving and so had his brother and he did not at all adopt to the role of a woman and he continued
00:01:22.140
this lie for decades and then some investigators figured out what really happened and a lot of
00:01:28.220
stuff went back and it is from this guy where all of the beginning ideology where the modern trans
00:01:34.680
and gay movement came from not not that he like gay people exist like there were same-sex attracted
00:01:40.420
people before him but the way that we interact with this concept as a society today around sexual
00:01:46.320
orientation and gender came from this guy and this faked experiment this is that's
00:01:54.200
significantly worse than you probably thought right monster doesn't do justice to someone like that
00:02:01.760
that's and one of the things i really want to talk about is why you find them why he lied like what
00:02:09.760
was his motivation in all of this uh-huh and i think in understanding his motivation for lying
00:02:16.320
we can get a better understanding of why like the the traversal clinic didn't release the data that was
00:02:23.420
leaked after it was shut down then putting people on puberty blockers was increasing their probability
00:02:28.200
of unaliving why is this same chain of dishonesty so prevalent within existing trans medical research
00:02:37.220
why do we have the warpath files you know we're all the path files wpath files where all of these
00:02:43.360
documents from researchers in the space communicating were released and we learned that they had been
00:02:48.280
intentionally manipulating the research and results and that they knew that this was a major problem
00:02:52.580
so i think in understanding his psychology we can understand how this is still going on today
00:02:57.100
okay let's get started oh my gosh sorry i'm just still reeling from what happened to those poor
00:03:06.100
children those people i'm i feel so bad yeah well i mean it's it's still happening was he punished for
00:03:13.120
this not really no he's still alive famous within the field so this this is still happening today is the
00:03:21.560
thing right like there are still people undergoing like children undergoing medical procedures
00:03:26.520
that all of the evidence says is going to basically destroy their lives like we we sorry i shouldn't
00:03:33.620
say all the evidence i should say the preponderance of evidence there is evidence on the other side
00:03:37.120
but the pendulum is definitely you can see our other episodes on that john money a prominent figure
00:03:42.160
in psychology and sexology was born in morrisville new zealand in 1921 and later emerged in the united
00:03:49.000
states in 1947 earning his phd from harvard university in 1952 his work at john hopkins university particularly
00:03:56.500
in the mid-20th century focused on human sexual behavior and gender identity where he coined terms
00:04:01.340
like gender role and sexual orientation money's research was groundbreaking but became highly controversial
00:04:07.560
especially due to his experiments on gender reassignment most noticeably the case of david ramire
00:04:12.560
the david ramire case often referred to as the joan joan case began in 1965 when david initially named
00:04:21.020
bruce was born as a healthy male at eight months old a botched circumcision resulted in the loss of his
00:04:28.040
member prompting his parents to seek advice for money adhering to his theory of gender neutrality that
00:04:34.660
gender is primarily learned and can be reassigned in early life advised the parents to raise david as a
00:04:41.020
girl at 22 months david underwent surgery to remove his testes and construct rudimentary female
00:04:46.400
genitalia he was renamed brenda and was given estrogen during adolescence to promote breast
00:04:51.520
development money tracked david's progress presenting the case as a success in his 1972 publication
00:04:58.440
man and woman boy and girl suggesting it supported feasibility of sex reassignment for children with
00:05:04.540
atypical sexual autonomies so i'll note a few things here that are really core to the beginning of this
00:05:09.980
he was the one who suggested that this person be castrated after the the botch thing happened he was
00:05:17.040
the one who said i want to do this as part of a theory so so basically if you're like why did he lie
00:05:22.860
about this later i think he had this theory and if he admitted that his theory was wrong he would have
00:05:29.760
to admit that he had this kid castrated and it was the wrong decision yeah basically as time went on
00:05:36.720
the horror of what he had wrought through his initial in mistakes became bigger and i think it parallels
00:05:45.800
what we're seeing was in the modern trans movement you know we now know that in in gender discontentedness
00:05:51.800
and gender non-contented news 2024 of 13 year olds who present as or who are gender discontented and would
00:05:59.500
you know say they would prefer to be the other gender around nine and ten of them are perfectly
00:06:03.400
comfortable with their gender if no treatment is is is brought to them if treatment is brought to them
00:06:09.160
then they end up with a around 50 percent unaliving risk rate which is wild to me the amount of harm
00:06:16.840
that can be done and we're just not talking about this right you know especially young ages where we
00:06:22.460
know that this is such a big problem right now now i i'd also note here that his intuition aligned with
00:06:30.200
the urban monoculture as we've talked about when we're trying to explore sort of how the urban
00:06:36.240
monoculture thinks and builds ideas which is like the world would be more fair if there was not you
00:06:44.100
know we are always like well the world would be more fair if everyone was born with equal capabilities
00:06:47.240
so we'll pretend that the world would be more fair if there was no such thing as beauty and it was
00:06:50.940
subjective and and so we'll pretend that you know that the world would be more fair if gender didn't
00:06:57.180
really exist and it was just something that we were socialized into and so he tried to make that a
00:07:03.860
reality however the reality was starkly different david never identified as a female experiencing
00:07:11.820
significant gender dysphoria bullying at school and emotional distress at 14 he learned the truth about
00:07:16.980
his biological sex and chose to revert to living as a male adopting the name david and underwent
00:07:22.320
reversal surgeries this outcome was revealed not until 1997 when milton diamond and keith sidmondson
00:07:30.160
published a paper exposing the failure debunking money's claims money's message used during the
00:07:35.940
experiment were also deeply troubling reports indicate he coerced david and his twin brother brian
00:07:41.140
starting at age six to perform sexual rehearsals photographing these acts enforcing genital
00:07:47.340
inspections during annual checkups so photographing these acts at six um these practices described as
00:07:54.580
aggressive and traumatic contributed to severe psychological harm for both boys money's behavior
00:08:00.560
when alone with the twins was reportedly a particularly distressing raising significant ethical questions
00:08:06.380
about consent child welfare and the explosion the exploitation of vulnerable subjects basically he's just
00:08:13.320
like i'm a scientist so i get to do whatever i want with these kids like that is
00:08:17.140
wild and and what what is so interesting to me is when we look at this modern you know horrifying
00:08:23.840
twisted thing that parts of the trans movement have become that we have likened to sort of cenobites
00:08:30.160
that you have this person as like the the hell priest of it all like the the key evil behind everything that's
00:08:38.660
come down from this and we see that it didn't start with like a scientist making a mistake or something like
00:08:44.660
that well this is this also shows that like sex positivity like this isn't
00:08:49.740
a cultural thing like trying to force people to be okay with certain things sexually that they're not
00:08:56.540
okay with is going to be extremely damaging to be like see you're okay with it i'm going to make you do
00:09:03.240
it i'm going to photograph you doing it i think that's also deeply evil what reason could he possibly have
00:09:09.460
for needing them to do you know simulated oh we're all thinking the same thing come on well no no we know
00:09:16.460
the reason is is is that is what this guy was he was a cenobite you know and as we said cenobites try to create
00:09:24.140
more cenobites no but i mean i think he was also another thing that starts with p
00:09:28.040
well i i understand but you know there's a degree of degeneracy when i say when i say i just mean somebody who lives for
00:09:35.280
degeneracy somebody who has dedicated their moral structure and system around self-gratification
00:09:43.220
without concern for how that affects the world or other people or even their own future state
00:09:49.400
the psychological impact was profound david suffered from the word you can't say on youtube
00:09:58.300
depression and despite marrying jane at 22 and adopting three children he struggled with the
00:10:05.520
trauma brian was similarly affected and died from antidepressant overdose in 2002 david did an
00:10:12.720
unaliving in 2004 at the age of 38 money's theory of gender neutrality posited that gender identity
00:10:21.040
could be malleable within the first two years of life advocating for surgical normalization for
00:10:26.180
intersex infants his work initially influenced medical standards justifying thousands of sex reassignment
00:10:32.980
surgery however rimmer's case's failure challenged his approach demonstrating that biological factors such as
00:10:39.420
testosterone exposure played a significant role in gender identity a 2016 review highlighted david's attraction
00:10:45.080
to women contrary to money's learning learning theory of of gayness further undermining his claims the term
00:10:52.880
quote-unquote gender originally referred to grammatical categories in linguistics e.g. masculine
00:10:57.280
the feminine neuter like in spanish so he didn't invent the word gender but money in the 1950s introduced the
00:11:03.720
concept of a gender role which is how we use it today which he defined as social and behavioral expressions of
00:11:10.900
being male and female distinct from biological sex in his 1955 paper hermaphrodism gender and
00:11:18.040
precocity in hyper decricotelium or something he used gender role to describe learned behaviors and
00:11:25.680
societal expectations laying the groundwork for the modern understanding of gender as a social construct
00:11:30.740
so if you have ever seen one of those graphs that's like gender is different from sex right and
00:11:36.920
they'll have like the little pictures and everything and you get this with like a lot of the the weird
00:11:40.880
gender stuff this is just this guy's theory that is what they are pushing now not the whole of his
00:11:48.080
theory note the trans community certainly has a beef with this guy as well because he argued that well
00:11:53.460
all of this is just what you learn at a young age and you can change this stuff right you know so and that
00:11:58.800
doesn't align with the modern trans communities ideas but everything about the idea that gender is
00:12:06.400
different from sex is money's theories that were justified with this initial study wow also the
00:12:14.660
concept that sexual orientation is like this important thing that we should be like paying
00:12:19.320
attention to or revering and all of that is is from him which is very different from our theory of
00:12:25.320
sexuality if you look at any of our writings like the pragmatis guide to sexuality you can see our model of
00:12:30.260
sexuality which is to say that sexuality should just be thought of as a series of arousal patterns
00:12:35.900
to certain stimuli and sometimes those stimuli are male sometimes those stimuli are female
00:12:40.680
sometimes they are things that are neither male or female and each of those individual stimuli should
00:12:45.000
be thought of as either having a positive or negative modifier to them where we argued that
00:12:49.500
disgust appears to be arousal operating was a negative modifier and anything that causes disgust in
00:12:55.300
some population is going to cause arousal in another subpopulation and vice versa you don't see this
00:13:00.600
with other emotional states things that cause fear in some populations don't cause arousal in other
00:13:04.240
populations so it appears that what happens when people get unusual arousal patterns is either the
00:13:08.800
volume meter of the arousal is is off or you get a sign flip from disgust to arousal or arousal to
00:13:14.780
disgust and we point out the reason why like even thinking about sexual orientation is so dumb is the
00:13:19.700
rates of for example straight men or men who otherwise identify as straight who are either unaroused by like
00:13:29.560
they're aroused by everything else about a woman but not the primary sex characteristic so the below the
00:13:35.820
belt part and and or who are aroused by you know nothing about males but the below the belt part is
00:13:43.320
higher it's about twice the rate of the men who are aroused by everything that's associated with a male
00:13:50.040
figure and the the the this doesn't make sense if you're trying to draw like a from here to here on a
00:13:56.920
sexual orientation it's more just okay here's a collection of arousal patterns the problem with
00:14:02.220
my arousal pattern theory is it takes what today like people are like well this isn't a fetish this
00:14:09.660
is a sexual orientation and what we would say is no sexual orientation is a choice to satisfy specific
00:14:18.920
arousal patterns and an arousal pattern that is tied to a human isn't particularly for any conceptual
00:14:26.680
reason different or more elevated than an arousal pattern that is tied to another stimulus like
00:14:34.340
this could be dominance displays this could be you know feet or something right like this could be any
00:14:40.620
any number of things speaking of discuss creepy callers or like a scat you know i i don't see why
00:14:46.940
it makes sense to separate these these categories but if you if you don't then um this causes a big
00:14:52.840
problem for a community that is looking for special rights based on an identity that they have
00:15:00.140
separated from the fetishes but that is based on arousal patterns um and that is only possible if
00:15:06.100
you go off of this guy's theories rather than my theories which i think are much more supported by
00:15:11.220
the evidence and you can read we wrote a whole book on this that for example ayla said it's it's a really
00:15:16.520
good book on sexuality and she really knows sexuality research so you know if she thinks that yeah this is
00:15:21.900
really cogent and well thought through on like how all that's evolved and how the patterns actually
00:15:25.400
work then it probably is one of the best sources out there for studying this yeah and again like per
00:15:32.000
the catechism of the progressive urban monoculture his views were correct because the most convenient
00:15:43.080
thing would be that you can just blank slate someone and make them have whatever sexuality is most
00:15:48.940
convenient and whatever gender is most convenient given the circumstances and that's unfortunately just
00:15:55.180
not true like yours is is the reality version of this that like actually a lot of people are turned on by
00:16:02.600
things that are like really not ideal super super not ideal like a lot of women are super turned on by
00:16:10.920
how shall we put it non-consensual surprise sex but that doesn't mean they condone it or want it
00:16:17.440
it just it just sucks right and like i think this this does cast light on how that ideology plays out
00:16:24.520
differently yeah and the damage of acting as though things are as though they would be in an ideal world
00:16:31.360
because we don't live in an ideal world and the monstrous things you end up doing inadvertently
00:16:36.880
at best by pretending it's a it's an ideal world it's it's what you've described is just so beyond the pale
00:16:44.160
for me yeah no it is beyond the pale of i think what any like decent thinking person could and
00:16:51.620
and consider like this guy the parents went to him because he was seen as an expert he he made this
00:16:56.900
decision and then he essentially groomed the kids throughout his entire childhood you know using him
00:17:01.860
like that this is horrifying to me that this was carried out and this guy was was considered like a
00:17:08.780
normal mainstream academic for a long period of time and this stuff was was was known about and
00:17:14.820
and not put out there but it also shows in the modern community how much harm came downstream of
00:17:21.200
the and i think also the idea of sexual orientation as i've mentioned here um why do we elevate specific
00:17:29.520
arousal patterns over arousal patterns and then normalize them with an individual identity there's no
00:17:35.760
reason to do that aside of this guy's work and i also really disagree with the broader way that he
00:17:41.560
describes gender roles um i think we can talk about the ways that men and women are biologically
00:17:47.500
different and then we can talk about cultural gender expectations but you know i think a lot of
00:17:53.520
the way that people choose to present gender displays and stuff like that can be very fluid without
00:18:00.800
needing to categorize them as something aberrant but as soon as you bring up this idea of gender
00:18:08.940
role well now all of a sudden you can't have tomboys tomboys are are are wrong in some way for those who
00:18:14.400
don't know the term tomboy in english means a girl who acts who is like into football and wears a
00:18:19.480
backwards baseball cap and jeans you know this this is now seen as wrong even if that is the normative
00:18:26.200
gender role from the culture that you and i come from that we both come from the backwoods greater
00:18:31.660
repolation cultural region we've talked about this in other episodes but within that cultural region
00:18:36.340
that is the way the ideal woman acts the ideal woman you know does hunting and fishing and and
00:18:42.520
has a gun and a knife collection and and those are like samana when i went to first about me she shot
00:18:48.180
off her knife collection that is normal femininity within our cultural region and it because that
00:18:54.740
wasn't the dominant culture now all of a sudden women being born into that culture were being
00:18:58.760
categorized as aberrant or not feminine enough and we did an episode on the death of the tomboy that
00:19:03.740
goes into this a lot more on like the noodler girl who's from this culture and she catches these big
00:19:08.400
catfish and other like girly girls that were from cultures that take where women take on a more feminine
00:19:14.240
role um such as you know muslim cultures and catholic cultures were criticizing her of of being very
00:19:20.600
girly and and not being the type of thing that you should want to show off or that a guy would want
00:19:24.740
and i'm like well that's a cultural preference but it might even be a a a arousal pattern preference
00:19:30.940
that gets to some extent informed by because you know we co-evolve along our culture the culture that you
00:19:36.420
are exposed to like personally actually kind of interesting i get almost no arousal from girly acting
00:19:42.880
girls like like prissy girls i i find them like kind of gross you know and and so i think that
00:19:50.800
that when i say girly i mean like overly you know performative feminine gender displays i i don't i'm
00:19:59.000
not into that so higher voices and lots of frills and pinks and bows and things like that yeah the sort
00:20:05.760
high maintenance act ah okay so not even necessarily like youthful girl acting but just
00:20:13.680
hyper feminine acting yeah the the hyper feminine act being squeamish or okay okay i get it well i mean
00:20:21.100
you've always seen that about me even even in like as i said i think like one of the anime girls that i
00:20:26.460
that i like the most is tomu chan is a girl um and it's an anime on a very you know tomboy girl but
00:20:32.380
that's that's just been always you know my my cultural background i think not admitting again
00:20:36.500
that these things change between cultures and that people might have i identify with different
00:20:41.360
cultures and note here i'm not saying that gender is entirely fluid but i'm saying gender can to a
00:20:46.320
degree be specialized for different cultural contexts and you can't just make up what it means to you
00:20:51.820
i mean you you you can and some people might have aberrant displays of it but you know it's it's not
00:20:57.460
necessarily going to work as we saw in this guy's experience so anyway sexual orientation money did
00:21:04.300
not invent the term sexual orientation but was among the first to use and popularize it in academic
00:21:09.420
discourse in the 1970s he employed sexual orientation to describe an individual's pattern of
00:21:14.700
sexual attraction e.g heterosexual gay or bisexual framing if it was as a psychological and behavioral
00:21:22.020
phenomenon so he he came up with that distinction um heterosexual he used another word that's
00:21:27.340
offensive now and then bisexual in his book 1988 book gay straight and in between the sexology of
00:21:34.100
erotic orientation helped formalize the term in sexology emphasizing its distinction from gender
00:21:39.360
identity while earlier terms like sexual preference were used money's work country oh so before this it
00:21:45.260
was sexual preference he normalized sexual orientation and and the reason why sexual preference was pushed
00:21:50.520
against later is it made it sound like a choice of an individual and could undermine the the ideology
00:21:56.240
that the lgbt movement was pushing at the time now i will note that i believe that that they are right
00:22:02.100
about that it's not a choice what what arouses you is not a choice but as such it's also not something
00:22:07.160
that you have to do or want or approve of either he argued that gender was learned through socialization
00:22:12.640
and popularized the concept he also established one of the first gender identity clinics in the 1960s
00:22:19.100
promoting surgical and hormonal interventions for gender reassignment particularly in intersex and transgender
00:22:24.220
individuals his work legitimized medical approaches to align physical bodies with gender roles as seen
00:22:30.520
for his advocacy of the david rummer reassignment now why did he why like what why like he knew and we
00:22:37.620
now know that he knew when he first published this stuff he the kid was six he didn't have a lot of
00:22:42.980
information at that time so he might have not known when he first published it but he definitely knew
00:22:48.320
was in the first few years after publishing it and so why didn't he go back i think there's a few one is
00:22:55.520
is he would have to admit the harm that he did two is imagine the harm to his professional reputation
00:23:00.180
better to just try to keep it quiet i mean of course it was going to come out eventually this was not
00:23:05.460
working right you know so i don't like one of these individuals who just like doesn't take time to think
00:23:10.560
oh my god i need to hit the panic button right now i need to hit the stop button right now
00:23:14.520
he never went back and like apologized or explained why he did all of this or so i think that his
00:23:21.940
position and the fact that he never accepted what he had done aligns very heavily with i think a lot of
00:23:29.680
the the because we've seen this with like the the travert stock clinic and stuff like this the the
00:23:36.500
overlap between the cenobite lifestyle and the people who push this stuff is really really high it's not
00:23:43.600
like just this guy it was the travestock clinic there was the case of the one doctor who worked
00:23:47.800
there who would go down and like like chat up underage boys in a nearby park or something and
00:23:53.040
try to get them to to go to the facility like this is a behavior that we we see repeatedly in a lot of
00:23:59.960
these communities and i think that we need to ask ourselves why why do these two things so often
00:24:05.160
overlap you know we in our big episode on you know the life of a cenobite where we go into
00:24:09.300
anna valens this this trans reporter who attacked kirscher for saying totally normal and true stuff
00:24:15.140
on her stream that immigrants had a higher fertility rate than the you know non-immigrant american
00:24:20.020
population when she goes oh she's a great replacement theorist it's like what do you
00:24:23.420
hillary clinton said this like we we have that episode where we're like this is not in any sort of
00:24:29.240
conspiracy theory that's just like a fact she's not like and it's because of the jews or something she
00:24:34.240
said a completely reasonable thing and you tried to destroy her life over it but like okay so what
00:24:39.440
does that correlate with oh well this person apparently on you know video games with minors
00:24:44.700
would put like a vibrator in and use that for their you know this is this is without the minor's
00:24:51.560
consent of course the minors did not know that they were playing with this older individual and
00:24:56.380
it's it's something that we just keep seeing over and over and over again and nothing to me could be
00:25:03.420
more horrific one of the things i'm just thinking about today is like imagine if and i don't know
00:25:07.920
if if trans people are real but if they are real the horror you would feel as a trans person that your
00:25:13.380
movement was taken over by these people that'd be like the pro natals movement be taken over by like
00:25:17.180
white nationalists or something like it would be really horrifying from our perspective and yet
00:25:23.340
you know that that that is what happened to the because if you look at the early like for example
00:25:29.240
trans activists like buck angel and caitlin jenner they've been completely expelled from the
00:25:33.480
movement when they try to be like hey like we don't actually support like the stuff with the kids
00:25:37.940
right like we should probably be walking this back a bit you know we we should actually be looking at
00:25:42.260
the research right and i should note here while we're going to do a separate episode on this article
00:25:46.400
the atlantic you know mainstream progressive newspaper published an article recently the liberal
00:25:52.540
misinformation bubble about youth gender medicine how the left ended up disbelieving science and if we look at
00:25:58.240
for example a quote from it and it's talking here about well if you do not get your kid gender
00:26:06.760
reassignment surgery if you do not affirm their gender they are more likely to unalive themselves
00:26:12.060
it says in response to this and this is mainstream leftist publication mind you but there is a huge
00:26:18.420
problem with that emotive format it isn't true when justice samuel alito challenged the aclu lawyer
00:26:24.760
chase down and got strangio on such claims during oral arguments strangio made a startling admission
00:26:31.500
he conceded that there's no evidence to support the idea that medical transition reduces adolescent
00:26:37.180
unaliving rates at first strangio dodged the question saying that research showed that blockers
00:26:42.540
and hormones quote reduce depression anxiety and alivingness end quote that is unaliving thoughts
00:26:49.580
even that is debatable according to reviews of the research literature and here they're citing the
00:26:55.160
study hormone therapy mental health and quality of life among transgender people a systematic review
00:27:00.260
and a another study pediatric gender medicine longitudinal studies have not consistently shown
00:27:06.340
improvement in depression or unaliving rates but when alito referenced systematic review conducted
00:27:12.320
in the cast report in england strangio conceded the point quote there is no evidence in some in the
00:27:18.100
studies that this treatment reduces completed unaliving rates he said quote and the reason for this is that
00:27:26.080
completed unaliving thankfully admittedly it's rare and we're talking about a very small population
00:27:31.160
of individuals with studies that don't necessarily have completed rates within them end quote here was the
00:27:36.840
trans right movement's greatest legal brain speaking in front of the nation's highest court and what he
00:27:43.020
was saying was that the strongest argument for the hotly debated treatment was in fact not supported by
00:27:49.180
science what's really chilling to me is that their top minds like the people who are most educated on
00:27:54.080
this obviously the rank and file don't know what they're talking about they're not up to date with the
00:27:58.280
science they're just repeating talking points but the top guys like this lawyer knows that he is arguing
00:28:04.280
to put kids on puberty blockers when there is no evidence that this helps them when they don't
00:28:10.800
understand what they're committing to when this is going to sterilize them for life when this is going
00:28:15.240
to cause lifelong dependency on medications for gender reassignment even not just puberty blockers
00:28:21.680
for minors said some of these individuals these people in the horror of what they are committing and at
00:28:28.340
scale right now are no different from joe money because there is no legitimate explanation there
00:28:34.160
is no hiding behind well but i i thought that the research said they are now just trying to cover
00:28:40.440
up the research like joe money did when it turned out that his initial theories were wrong and if you
00:28:46.280
want to go back and be like hey this guy deserves some punishment well he's long gone at this point
00:28:51.420
but these people are still doing this stuff and they're still causing the same amount of harm
00:28:56.320
castrating children and forcing them into weird sexualized situations to have your community so
00:29:03.500
overtaken by these types of individuals who are still the dominant voices as i pointed out like
00:29:10.360
the memo who recently did a netflix special you know had the quote about you know the little girls
00:29:16.540
are not that innocent who who are in the bathrooms you know like they're kinky too like
00:29:20.840
these these these people you just keep seeing it over and over and over again and it's it i i think the
00:29:30.080
reason is is that when you loosen sexual norms within one area it's very easy to justify loosening them
00:29:38.040
across the board especially when you self-identify as either a person in a position of authority or a
00:29:45.020
victimized minority do you have thoughts simone because you haven't really i'm just i'm so terrified
00:29:53.040
this bad this this real bad i i don't know i just didn't know but i also didn't realize that
00:30:01.260
this concept of gender roles was at least articulated so late because people talk in the context of history
00:30:10.120
about gender roles incessantly not that there were not gender roles before but i didn't realize that
00:30:18.460
they this concept of calling them that was so recent and also from someone who now i hate so vehemently
00:30:25.760
yeah so this is surprising all around i had a term that i would promote as an alternative is is is
00:30:32.240
cultural gender norms yeah that makes heavy understanding that they deviate even within a
00:30:37.440
country right like oh yeah really really heavily within a country uh like this is when people are
00:30:43.380
like i don't understand like the difference between like backwoods culture and like deep south culture
00:30:47.760
the cavalier cultural group gender norms is a huge area where they differ um in the in the backwoods
00:30:53.360
greater appalachian cultural region uh genders are fairly egalitarian there's not that much difference
00:30:59.580
between a man and a woman in terms of their status you you typically are searching for a woman
00:31:04.460
based on her fortitude her ability to defend the land as we've talked about was like daniel boone
00:31:09.060
when somebody was talking about his wife they were talking about oh uh you know she's really good with
00:31:12.220
a rifle she's very good at defending the property from intrusion like that's what they thought to say
00:31:16.180
like not she's beautiful or anything like that or she's she's smart like she's smart and a good
00:31:21.580
conversationalist is what the puritans would always value in a woman when in the south they valued more
00:31:25.520
traditional femininity and attractiveness and ability to sort of run a household and and like that's okay
00:31:32.680
to have different gender norms and i think in our society today because you know intercultural
00:31:38.160
marriages are so normal you basically need to establish through contract what gender roles
00:31:42.720
your marriage is going to be based on because you know even if you're you're you're like two white
00:31:51.120
christians coming together if one of you is from like the cavalier cultural group and the other is from
00:31:55.100
like the backwoods cultural group you might find yourself in something of a shocking
00:31:59.440
you know situation in terms of cultural expectations around what's expected of you
00:32:04.660
and i think that that is something that that is really undermined by individuals who try to push
00:32:12.520
this idea of sort of pan cultural now i'm not saying that there aren't pan cultural differences
00:32:18.020
between males and females but these shouldn't be thought of as these should be thought of as the
00:32:21.340
way men and women are biologically different from each other and your psychology is part of your
00:32:25.980
biology if it's you know an inborn trait well also admitting as we always push on this podcast is
00:32:32.760
that psychological preferences of individuals co-evolve with their culture and if their culture
00:32:39.180
has you know sort of aberrant psychological preferences when contrasted with other cultures
00:32:43.240
around something like gender norms they're going to act in a way that's really different and that's
00:32:48.880
fine like we need to get better at accepting the ways that we are different as a society and the urban
00:32:54.320
monoculture acts as a huge impediment to that because it demands that we accept that humans have
00:33:00.920
no the preferences predilections or abilities that are inborn and different between groups well i think
00:33:08.720
the other really big issue though is we need to stop making a big deal out of gender the whole reason
00:33:13.800
these these boys were put through this which was such a terrible just too many human rights violations
00:33:20.400
here is because their parents freaked out and were like oh well okay there was a a botched procedure
00:33:27.280
with his private parts now we need to rethink everything about his gender no he just had a
00:33:33.900
botched procedure with his private parts like maybe they consulted surgeons to see if they could do
00:33:40.060
reconstructive surgery or not maybe they didn't but you could also wait and see how technology advances
00:33:46.800
and see what he wants to do when he's old enough like the fact that they had to make this about gender
00:33:52.680
in the first well simone i'm gonna push back a bit here i do agree from our cultural perspective
00:33:57.960
so if you take the the backwards cultural perspective because we're a very gender egalitarian
00:34:03.720
cultural group um we would not see that much importance to gender like we're like well you know
00:34:10.240
both roles both genders need to be able to defend the property both genders need to be able to make a
00:34:15.060
living both genders need to be able to handle the tough work etc we would say yeah but also like
00:34:20.100
why is gender balls like there's there's no reason why this no but the point i'm making is gender is
00:34:25.980
actually very important in other regions like in muslim traditions gender is hugely important and the
00:34:32.420
cavalier cultural tradition gender is hugely important it is it's just you're sort of in a position of
00:34:37.200
cultural privilege where you can say like why do you even care about gender anyway because our culture
00:34:42.340
just doesn't care about gender that much which is why we raise our girls to be you know with
00:34:46.900
with more boyish names to be more tomboyish because that is what our culture does yeah but i think
00:34:53.440
hyper focus on like gender also concentrating in one body part when as we know from both
00:34:59.660
and from a scientific level like this guy was very very male and he'd been mutilated in one part of his
00:35:07.300
body like i i can agree with that but i i think that we have to keep in mind where we're dealing
00:35:13.700
with a degree of cultural privilege and how we can address this and our answer for our family which is
00:35:20.360
just don't like our oldest kid who's five still like we haven't had a conversation with him in the
00:35:26.340
car today like it's actually becoming a problem at this age because he's five does not understand what
00:35:31.740
gender is he cannot when we ask him the gender is so and so a boy or a girl no we're not talking
00:35:39.020
about like strangers we can ask him the gender of his sister which we did today yeah he's like got it
00:35:45.320
wrong he's definitely a boy this yeah he was very confident in his wrong answer as well he gets it
00:35:52.440
right 50 of the time almost exactly which shows it is a pure guess for him he has no idea what gender
00:36:00.180
is and it might be because we and then we're not like raising him gender neutral or any sort of
00:36:05.220
experience no i always try to correct because the problem is like when we i take him out in the
00:36:10.100
mornings to to parks and stuff and they talk loudly for everyone to hear about everything they think
00:36:17.080
and they you know are like oh look at him running or like look at her doing this it's so offensive to
00:36:24.280
older people because they don't know that he's yeah they're like they i feel like yeah he's he's
00:36:28.600
like why is that man not letting us pet his dog and like you know lady glares at me and i'm like
00:36:33.740
and so i'm probably every time i'm like it's she's a woman she's a woman and then like after they pass
00:36:40.480
i'm like you know here are the things to look for like actually this is really interesting despite
00:36:45.160
neither our son nor our daughters so neither of our sons nor neither of our daughters can
00:36:50.600
consistently get gender correct they they do not know what gender their siblings are you know like we
00:36:55.240
our daughter wears dresses and i wear dresses the point i was going to make is despite not having
00:37:00.660
a concept of what gender is or what gender they are they act in very gendered ways our daughter
00:37:10.240
really likes accessorizing really likes wearing like little fancy things she really likes wearing
00:37:17.840
gendered clothing and and this to me is really fascinating because it seems to indicate that
00:37:25.540
you don't need a concept of gender to fall in to pre-evolved gender roles even within a family like
00:37:34.360
ours but what's also interesting is i can already see the way that female gender display is different in
00:37:41.360
our culture within our daughter so even though the kids don't have an under she fights with her
00:37:46.280
brothers all the time like in terms of sock and boppers or fist fights and everything like that
00:37:50.520
she really enjoys fighting just as much as one of the boys do which is i i would guess probably not
00:37:58.100
part of the gender norm package i would get if i had a daughter and i was people can answer in the
00:38:04.700
comments if you're from a different cultural group does your daughters like fighting as much as your
00:38:09.400
sons or do only your young sons like fighting and it is aberrant for our daughter to like fighting in
00:38:16.880
addition to all the accessorizing and dresses and everything like that but yeah very interesting
00:38:21.180
what do we do going forward to stop bad things from happening to people like this
00:38:27.480
i mean part of the problem is is the obviously our generation's version of this
00:38:34.260
is the gender reassignment surgeries being done on children but it's it's the same thing that they
00:38:39.540
were for him so gender reassignment surgeries being done on children people who can't consent
00:38:43.820
so but but stopping that is incredibly difficult because it is become sort of a priest cast of the
00:38:50.060
urban monoculture and a really sort of untouchable cast and our new book that i'm writing right now we
00:38:54.920
are going to explore why that is the case how they became the priest cast but this is sort of like a
00:39:00.500
eunuch fully life dedicated it's mostly because they can't go back anymore it's the core reason i
00:39:04.880
think it's kind of obvious they are and if they try then they get completely exercised from public
00:39:09.660
life you know whether you see this with buck angel or caitlin jenner just the entire community
00:39:15.020
immediately rounds and attacks them so there is no criticizing the excesses of anyone who uses this
00:39:21.200
label and the reason i say uses this label is it's pretty clear that some people who are using the
00:39:24.720
label are just degenerates and are using the label for protection which is it you know
00:39:30.280
scary as well that we have allowed this to happen so i mean you know it's it's fighting again and
00:39:35.420
this is part of why i think all the rest of our advocacy would be a lot easier if we just
00:39:42.080
held to the line of well the the whole trans thing's okay whatever like there's clearly nothing
00:39:49.780
wrong going on here like i support some religious groups blind like we do as gay people with gay
00:39:54.300
people we're like well i support some religious organizations ability because i can support
00:39:58.540
cultural sovereignty to say i'm not okay with this but i support the people who are you know of age
00:40:02.880
and like want to get married and everything like that and if they want to then go ahead right like
00:40:06.540
cultural sovereignty is is the center of my moral system that said uh
00:40:15.100
so it'd be so easy if we just went with that with all the trans stuff and the reason i don't is
00:40:22.780
because i just think that there is so much active harm being caused right now that i even if it hurts
00:40:29.460
other causes that i think are really important it is worth wrapping that advocacy together
00:40:38.780
that was sobering but i'm glad you told me about that glad to know i guess i mean not happy to know but
00:40:48.980
it's better that i do know if that makes sense hopefully everyone else feels the same way
00:40:55.320
yep all right how i wonder how demonetized this one's gonna get
00:41:00.720
i'm trying to be really careful with vocabulary choice so i'm gonna i'm gonna go through and try to
00:41:05.980
delete anything that could get us demonetized so we'll see you guys all have to be creative
00:41:11.460
clearly yeah my gosh i love you love you to us i already sent the other links so we can just go
00:41:19.600
straight there record so to not sabotage us okay podcast topics oh i gotta tell our audience the most
00:41:33.840
hilarious thing simone thinks that wren if you guys who don't know that's the the vtuber who's like
00:41:42.580
a little lolly vampire girl that was black hair but it's played by a guy you think that that is sorry
00:41:49.920
no it's just sounds just like it's not i played i played their audio side by side and it was really
00:41:55.660
close that was the guy from clownfish tv they sound super similar i mean you listen to it though right
00:42:03.700
they're both like famous like why would you have these two and they have the same politics like
00:42:10.780
i know i know they have the same politics isn't that interesting it's just that some people like
00:42:17.340
to hear about you through the lens of disney and the marvel universe as a married parent you know
00:42:22.860
some like to hear you as a vampire girl and you know what we have learned since our very first
00:42:29.760
startup that anime is extremely polarizing so you know to be a vtuber is to decidedly restrict your
00:42:38.320
audience forever i mean i mean an anime vtuber because he's he's technically vtuber through clownfish tv as
00:42:44.720
well oh yeah true because he uses those little drawings to do the exactly yeah i'm just saying
00:42:49.780
though neon from clownfish tv is secretly wren vtuber it got to the point where i was like playing
00:42:58.880
their videos simultaneously and being like no they would have had to like switch out their audio
00:43:03.900
rigs or something like it's not exact it's not exact you you and your conspiracies i've told people
00:43:11.160
one of the early conspiracies on us the first time we went viral or one of the early times we went viral
00:43:15.700
is that we were actually the same person because they said we look too similar and two people couldn't
00:43:20.640
have such crazy views so we must be one person cosplaying as the other and pretending to be in a
00:43:27.200
relationship have they not even heard the term folia do i mean like most people hadn't until it was a
00:43:32.160
wine brand but still i feel like you should have learned it by then oh that we're both crazy we're
00:43:38.060
in a little a folia do world here where we believe that we're reading all these statistics about
00:43:44.100
falling fertility rates where we believe for whatever reason like the far left divides human dignity based on
00:43:50.140
their you know ethnicity and gender even though they don't do that at all yeah what do you think of the
00:43:57.100
we're writing a book we got contacted by a real publisher this time we want to publish a real
00:44:02.620
book by us maybe we'll see after they read the intro i'm excited about the intro basically malcolm is
00:44:08.000
outlining the the introduction to a book that would theoretically be called we will replace you
00:44:14.040
that talks about how demographic collapse is playing out but what isn't being discussed that much is all
00:44:20.400
right well who's gonna come out ruler of the world in the future well it's sort of like a
00:44:26.000
a treatise on how the tech right and the traditional right can work together in what comes next and work
00:44:32.960
together to defeat the urban monoculture which is uniquely i think important right now with elon's
00:44:40.200
sort of betrayal i think of the larger right-wing movement right which everyone knew was coming i don't
00:44:45.760
see this like a big thing i mean him and trump were always eventually going to have a falling out
00:44:49.420
i didn't expect him to go this hard but that that was always something that was going to either of these
00:44:55.200
men practice things by half measures malcolm no they don't they they they go a hundred percent
00:45:01.580
um but but you live dramatically we'll have an episode on on this that will have gone live before
00:45:08.580
this one but i but i will say just our position on this i i am not happy that this happened and i think
00:45:15.860
that that increases the importance of simone and i in staying loyal to the mainstream republican party
00:45:23.520
and the the new right tech light right alliance and understanding that elon's not the king of all
00:45:30.280
this you know honestly probably the king of all of this is asma gold if you wanted to say who's the
00:45:36.020
real king of like this faction of voters and influences them the most and elon has beefed with asma gold
00:45:41.160
before as well so he has asma gold called him out for the game cheating thing and he got like banned
00:45:49.240
on twitter for a short period because of that you know which is not great because he was he was being
00:45:56.220
very gracious in the way he was doing it he was like i mean just looking at this it does not look
00:46:00.320
good is basically what asma gold said and and you know or you know nuxinor who's big now i can't
00:46:06.680
believe nuxinor got big out of nowhere it's cool all right i'll get started