Based Camp - Jordan Peterson Vs Us Parenting Strategies

00:00:00.000 what you do now with our children is show when their will has crossed a line with your bill

00:00:12.060 whereas jordan peterson's strategy is i am going to let my will rule this household and you have

00:00:18.880 to bend to my will yeah no no it makes perfect sense and i understand like i i really i get it

00:00:25.320 like and i and again i'm saying i actually don't think it's wrong for the type of of families that

00:00:31.860 really crave structure i think yeah it's incredibly effective i want to raise kids where the punishment

00:00:39.740 for unjust action is how it makes them feel about themselves not an external authority applying that

00:00:47.980 punishment because then you enter the real world and you see external authorities not applying

00:00:52.900 punishment for bad action you see the zeitgeist in society says this is what's good right because

00:00:59.080 look at our society right now the things that rewards the things that cancels right these are

00:01:02.920 all the little kids that were taught to obey authority you know and they they go out into

00:01:06.980 society and they're looking for what's right and what's wrong and so they look at what is the

00:01:11.620 authority punishing what is the authority not punishing the things the authority doesn't

00:01:15.640 punish well those must be the right things and the thing the authority does punish those must be the

00:01:20.000 wrong things instead of trying to determine those things for themselves and take their own mental

00:01:24.920 weight for that would you like to know more hi malcolm hello simone so you read this jordan peterson

00:01:35.140 book and we've been talking more about various things that we either agree with or don't agree with in

00:01:40.100 it and one of the areas i really want to focus on is parenting strategy we touched on it a bit with

00:01:45.220 the eight passengers situation video but i i just find it it's one of these areas where i don't have

00:01:52.720 a prescription where i'm not like this is the right way to do it i actually think for different

00:01:58.740 genetic sociological clusters which likely are inherited through a family there are different

00:02:06.340 strategies so contrast two broad strategies the jordan peterson strategy right which is we'll go into

00:02:14.980 it but essentially it's a very controlling strategy that is focused on the adult breaking the child's

00:02:21.700 will it's about discipline and structure yes and then the other strategy which is much closer to the

00:02:29.700 strategy that our family employs and was employed with both of us when we were growing up i'd call the

00:02:33.900 rodney atkins strategy which comes from the he's mine song great country song if you haven't heard it

00:02:40.080 but the thesis of what happens in the song is a guy catches a group of teenagers out smoking in a

00:02:45.900 field and is is taking them to his dad to to what he thinks is their dad's house right one of their dad's

00:02:52.940 house because he saw where they were running and he's he's complaining that these kids won't speak when

00:02:57.360 spoken to and they were getting up to mischief uh and the dad's like you know he's mine he's really proud

00:03:04.400 of his son for doing all that in a way and he's like if you knew me back then it'd be no surprise

00:03:10.080 to you what he's done and then you know other things like the kids at a football game and somebody

00:03:15.320 takes a cheap shot at their little kicker and he uh punches the kid and he ends up getting removed

00:03:22.720 from the game and you know is obviously being punished and he's like talking about how he jumps up in the

00:03:27.240 stadium and shouts he's mine and he's all proud of his son for doing this but it reminds me a lot of

00:03:33.580 parenting strategies that my parents uh utilized for me to the extent where i really realized and i

00:03:41.880 think also part of the he's mine song that keeps going back to if you understood what i was like

00:03:47.100 when i was a kid you would understand one that the same traits that i am nurturing my kid are what

00:03:54.320 eventually led me to become successful and what will allow them to become successful one but two that

00:04:01.500 any other reaction to this you know again it is showing that it is potentially an intergenerational

00:04:07.040 genetic thing would obviously be a a deleterious reaction and i know this from when i was a kid

00:04:13.580 so let's go into the well okay so here's an example from my own childhood before we we go into the what

00:04:21.980 jordan peterson recommends because i remember i got in trouble once at a school with with one of my

00:04:28.520 teachers i i don't remember the specifics of it but it felt very unjust to me at the time and so i

00:04:34.520 went to my mom afterwards and i was like oh the teacher said this about what i had done and she

00:04:39.940 goes oh you don't need to listen to them and i was like well what do you mean and she goes well i mean

00:04:45.200 she's an elementary school teacher she's not exactly in adult society respectable and she's like if 1.00

00:04:52.440 she had great advice on how to live her life wouldn't become an elementary school teacher

00:04:58.180 so what you need to ask yourself is are you proud of the way you acted do you think what you did was

00:05:04.760 right and if you didn't then you do need to feel bad you do need to punish yourself but you need to

00:05:10.420 understand right from wrong on your own and not have it be what authority figures tell you

00:05:15.320 i got into so much trouble in school i was at the principals like every other day 0.82

00:05:20.980 when i was in school because i was told oh yeah teachers are all losers you can just ignore them

00:05:27.780 the goal is don't get caught or don't get expelled because that will have a permanent effect on your

00:05:32.580 life but other than that i mean it's up to you what's right and wrong and you should learn that for

00:05:37.740 yourself and live by your own moral code which is just wildly different and that you should even take

00:05:43.560 pride in defying authority when authority is unjust which is really different so let's talk about the

00:05:51.020 the jordan peterson strategy right so can you go into this scene from the book yeah jordan peterson

00:05:56.720 describes a couple of scenes and and mostly his his parenting tactics involved basically making it clear

00:06:04.720 that he is the alpha of the household and when he says you have to do something you have to do it

00:06:09.080 and if you defy him he will essentially wait you out so at one point he waits for like 30 minutes

00:06:17.140 while a toddler refuses to eat and doesn't let the toddler leave the table and is basically like you

00:06:22.140 don't get to leave the table until you eat and then when he does eat he praises him and says you're a

00:06:27.300 very good boy and you know gives him a lot of praise when he does what he wants and then otherwise

00:06:31.220 it's just like you don't get to go anywhere he's like a stone wall and what he argues in the book is

00:06:35.280 you know i can like for me 30 minutes is 30 minutes for a kid 30 minutes is like forever so you can

00:06:41.220 outlast a kid a lot faster that's why he says it's sustainable because apparently he's only been

00:06:46.500 around very weak well children no i i can't even imagine so i i know that even if somebody did that

00:06:53.220 to me when i was a kid because i did have a few authority figures try things like that when i was a kid

00:06:57.940 try these little gambits like that and even if in the moment i might be like okay i'm gonna go along

00:07:04.920 with what you say he's under this impression that once he's done this he's broken the kid's will

00:07:09.420 and from that point on the kid will listen to him about that thing no no no no no no with me now you

00:07:14.380 have created a a a challenge now challenge the gauntlet has been thrown at that gauntlet has been

00:07:21.040 thrown i have walked out of that situation fuming and i am going to do literally everything i can

00:07:27.760 in my power to challenge you like like like challenge you for dominance because you have shown

00:07:33.860 that you're trying to show that like you own my mind right and and i would even as a child like i

00:07:40.660 remember people are like oh eventually a kid will get tired of resisting and i'm like

00:07:46.440 i would not get tired of resisting if anything a game over time right but jordan peterson and the people

00:07:53.840 who his acolytes like parents we've met who really support this view they argue a couple of things so

00:08:01.960 let's let's steel man them they argue that children really want to structure children really want

00:08:07.520 discipline children really want a strong parent to tell them how things are and then second

00:08:11.680 they believe that what they're doing is providing sort of life on training wheels that you know if a

00:08:19.740 child does things that are socially unacceptable they won't have any friends so before that even

00:08:25.000 happens i'm going to create sort of a microcosm of that in the home so that rather than then just not

00:08:31.020 ending up with any friends and learning from life because life is a very strict teacher a cruel

00:08:36.860 teacher sometimes i'm going to let them learn this in the home where it's not going to hurt them as

00:08:41.040 much to learn it so those are the two things that i've seen argued both in the book and by

00:08:45.600 people who are proponents of this approach personally before you give your critique which i'm sure it's

00:08:51.360 going to be quite different from mine i would argue both of those things are really important like you

00:08:55.740 know making sure that people learn how the real world imposes rules and providing little

00:09:01.300 microcosms of that at home i think that is important i think that is valuable i don't think

00:09:04.980 that establishing yourself as an arbitrary authority figure is going to do it and second i do think that

00:09:09.940 kids want structure and crave structure and crave a strong leader but not a tyrant a leader is someone

00:09:15.640 who inspires followers someone who through their own action inspires you to take your own initiative

00:09:20.020 and i think that the the true discipline in a household like the true discipline that a parent

00:09:25.000 should show in a structure a parent should show is through their own self-discipline and their own

00:09:28.700 self-mastery and children copy their parents different than what you're saying right here so

00:09:32.580 you right here are saying one thing you're saying two things which one of them is true and the other

00:09:38.020 isn't true okay the one that is true is i think the best way for people like us to signal to our kids

00:09:43.780 how to be is through self-discipline okay this thing that is not true is the kids crave structure

00:09:49.920 i think certain people so what's really important about every one of these people we know of

00:09:55.600 everyone who raises their kids this way has admitted that they personally crave structure

00:10:01.800 that they personally benefited from highly structured environments at times in their life okay yeah

00:10:08.000 they have said that sociological profile of person and this is what i was saying

00:10:11.940 who likes to be dominated and this person has kids who like to be mentally dominated

00:10:19.600 these are like different subspecies of human yeah no they're basically a different sociological

00:10:27.120 subspecies of human and this is why you can't just take one culture and impose it on another cultural

00:10:32.300 group these people if you did our style of child rearing with them which is about stoking the child's will

00:10:38.720 and having them take personal responsibility for their own failures they they'd find it miserable

00:10:45.280 they wouldn't know where to go they'd like like certain people are i don't want to say born to be

00:10:49.780 minions but they they really really crave structure in structured environments and there are ways that you

00:10:56.840 can be like a great warrior in a structured environment so not all you know structured environment

00:11:01.960 tropes a knight for example is is somebody who is living in a structured environment right like

00:11:07.560 so not all structured environment tropes are anti-masculine like i don't want you to do

00:11:12.100 but well i think that you know from my cultural perspective they still kind of are like you know 0.54

00:11:18.900 a knight who takes orders from a king is still a little bitch i'm sorry that's just the way my 1.00

00:11:23.720 culture would see it the knight should take orders only from his own conscience but this is a different 0.96

00:11:29.240 cultural perspective right and and it would obviously be framed by my own sociological

00:11:35.080 predilections so i actually think what you're seeing here is these families are doing what's

00:11:40.020 right for their kids because it what it's what's right for them right and so one question parents

00:11:47.060 always ask themselves is do you personally create structure if so then a structured child rearing

00:11:53.660 strategy may work for your kids if not then a structured child rearing strategy probably won't work

00:11:59.220 for your kids and with that said this is also why it's useful to marry someone of a similar or

00:12:07.320 aligned sociological persuasion as yourself because you don't know you know if you have a wife who

00:12:11.580 really craves structure and a husband who really craves you know being out there uh uh and and and

00:12:17.480 building their will and and relying on and this is what you were talking about so when you said

00:12:22.860 it's about showing your own mental sort of dominance and restraint and and maturity to your kids what

00:12:31.380 you're actually saying there is i take personal responsibility from my own mind yeah and i hope to

00:12:39.320 reflect that to my kids um well i and also our kids just copy everything we do but then the second

00:12:46.480 thing and they do copy everything we do and you can see this in the way uh they even handle punishment

00:12:51.480 which we'll talk a bit about punishment in here and this is the video i'll include the clip in because

00:12:54.820 i think it's a great clip to to sort of annotate but anyway the second thing that you said there is

00:13:00.540 it teaches them about the real world right this i would disagree pretty strongly that's not the way

00:13:07.440 the real world works in the real wait wait so which which is not the way the real world works

00:13:12.000 what the sort of the philosophy of the the jordan pearson acolytes that we've spoken with

00:13:17.120 is not the way most of the real world works you don't get sit in a timeout you lose your job people

00:13:23.140 don't talk to you the real world provides consequences to you you providing the consequences

00:13:29.740 to yourself or having some authority figure who's out there in fact i think it teaches really toxic

00:13:35.840 mindset which is that the world or authority should be the one to punish people who do bad rather than

00:13:43.680 you as an individual should punish yourself for doing bad you as an individual should feel bad

00:13:48.780 when you do bad and that's where the punishment should come from and so i'm gonna actually roll a

00:13:53.720 little clip here because i think it's really interesting it's of one of our kids getting angry

00:13:57.940 and in the clip what you will see is he is upset with his brother because he knows they need to be

00:14:07.440 leaving the house to go to spend some time with a babysitter and the brother isn't having it he just

00:14:13.680 wants to play the piano and then the brother keeps pushing him away and he is at first

00:14:16.840 vocalizing how he's feeling like he's showing i feel anger but he's not reacting on that anger

00:14:24.080 after a few pushes he holds his brother's hands really tight and this is something we do with the

00:14:29.500 kids not as tight as he's holding his brother hands but we hold their hands and we look at them

00:14:32.660 in the eyes and we we talk to them right when we really need to get their attention then we have

00:14:36.700 them repeat back to us to make sure they understood what we were saying right uh but you could tell

00:14:41.120 he holds his brother's hands a little too tight and the brother makes a noise like he's being hurt

00:14:45.780 and immediately and it made me respect my son so much in the moment you can see he's ashamed of what

00:14:55.060 he's done he's still feeling angry like he puts his hands behind his back but he's ashamed of what

00:15:00.880 he's done and he's trying to to think through what do i do like i'm still angry right how do i relate to

00:15:07.680 this and i point out to him that he's making monster sounds like he's talking like he's a monster

00:15:11.760 and he replies i i think really interesting like like i'm a monster because i bopped toasty

00:15:20.460 and i want to bop toasty i'm a monster because i want to bop toasty and and and bop is the word we

00:15:25.240 use in our family for hit someone or hurt someone so what he's saying is the fact that i hurt him

00:15:30.380 makes me bad in this moment

00:15:32.720 are you are you did you make a mistake octavian can you tell us you're sorry

00:15:59.500 i'm trying to get home to this house can you tell him you're sorry you're not supposed to hurt 0.99

00:16:08.400 toasty no i'm mad are you a monster 0.98

00:16:15.640 is it what is that your mad voice why why do you turn into a monster when you're mad 0.97

00:16:26.260 which i just thought was very interesting and and to me it it shows a difference in how we expect

00:16:39.700 our kids to act i want to raise kids where the punishment for unjust action is how it makes them

00:16:47.320 feel about themselves not an external authority applying that punishment because then you enter

00:16:54.220 the real world and you see external authorities not applying punishment for bad action you see

00:16:59.440 the zeitgeist in society says this is what's good right because look at our society right now the

00:17:04.900 things that rewards the things that cancels right these are all the little kids that were taught to

00:17:08.800 obey authority you know and they they go out into society and they're looking for what's right and

00:17:13.440 what's wrong and so they look at what is the authority punishing what is the authority not punishing

00:17:18.740 the things the authority doesn't punish well those must be the right things and the thing the authority

00:17:22.720 does punish those must be the wrong things instead of trying to determine those things for themselves

00:17:27.580 and take all their own mental weight for that

00:17:30.340 yeah i mean i i agree with you it's not it's not the most accurate way to go i've heard other people

00:17:39.080 talk on podcasts about sort of versions of this form of discipline of like microcosms of the real world

00:17:45.460 that i really like for for example like one teacher whose interviewer i listened to described

00:17:49.800 how in working with his students he he implements laws the way laws are typically implemented which is

00:17:56.260 when you get caught you pay a penalty but sometimes the penalty is worth it so like sometimes when you

00:18:02.260 get a speeding ticket it's kind of worth it you were willing to pay that amount to kind of get where

00:18:06.940 you needed to go faster it was an emergency or something like that so he you know he pointed out like

00:18:12.200 if if a kid starts acting out in class to cheer up a friend well maybe it's worth it that they get

00:18:16.600 punished because it's worth it for their friend to be cheered up and he talks with the students about

00:18:20.400 that and i kind of like that because one it shows how like in the real world like in many cases you

00:18:25.420 only get punished if you get caught and two sometimes it's sometimes it's worth it to run that risk of

00:18:34.700 getting caught and to pay a penalty because sometimes rules are worth breaking i love that kind of

00:18:39.420 philosophy so i don't think like using adult punishment as an approximation of real world

00:18:45.420 punishments it's always a bad idea and i think that sometimes it's very effective but the way you relate

00:18:50.580 to punishment teaches kids values so another story from my childhood right is one day a teacher was like

00:18:57.300 oh i forgot like one kid was was picking on another kid and i had told the teacher and the teacher

00:19:03.380 had praised me about it to my mom and you know afterwards she took me aside and she goes 0.99

00:19:07.940 don't be a little pussy like don't go to a teacher don't go to an authority is what she was 1.00

00:19:13.340 saying in adult language when you see an injustice resolves the situation yourself she's like could you 1.00

00:19:20.020 not have done anything could you not have intervened could you not have decked this kid and yes i would

00:19:26.260 have been punished for that but that would have been honorable rather than being a little snitch being a 0.98

00:19:31.120 little bitch you know going to authority from from the perspective that was being ingrained to me by my 1.00

00:19:38.460 parent you know and i i i think that that was really valuable and it's a different way of dealing 0.98

00:19:43.220 seeing and relating to authority but here's where i think these two strategies sort of come to a head

00:19:49.180 right which is when kids are doing genuinely um dangerous things right like teaching kids to not run

00:19:58.180 into roads and stuff like that like do you actually teaching kids to not and this is where you learned

00:20:04.760 a piece of parenting strategy from a safari so can you go into this this safari revelation you had

00:20:13.800 yeah i mean when you're out on safari you're just looking at animals and you have nothing else to do so

00:20:19.560 you start thinking a lot right and we went on a multi-day safari at one point it was really awesome

00:20:24.300 so lucky to do it and we watched a lot of cubs with mothers which was great because i mean it's

00:20:30.460 cool to see lions well yeah but i mean it wasn't just lion cubs it was also a few other things but

00:20:36.040 yeah like the lion cubs are the most impactful thing that we looked at and it's interesting to

00:20:40.400 see how mammals like across species engage with discipline and with lions it was so clear how they

00:20:48.040 did so a lion cub would play and constantly push boundaries because that's the whole point of play is to

00:20:53.480 like learn your own boundaries and other people's boundaries so like one we love that we love the

00:20:57.220 kids push boundaries and we want them to because that's how mammals and probably many other species

00:21:02.080 learn what their limits are and what other people's limits are what would happen when they would push

00:21:06.700 boundaries with a an adult lion is they would start jumping on them biting them playing with their

00:21:14.200 tails etc and for a while as long as they were not being too crazy the lions would just kind of

00:21:19.780 you know like they would look irritable they might like kick a leg a little bit or make a small noise

00:21:25.500 but they wouldn't do anything crazy and then as soon as one of the lion cubs crossed a line

00:21:30.880 the you know they'd get a big like swipe of the paw a roar you know they'd immediately get like very

00:21:37.420 visceral immediate but not harming you know like no and they would give them a grumble first you know

00:21:43.340 yeah they'd get warnings and then they'd get like a sort of like they'd get like hit by a paw

00:21:48.640 or and or roared at and then they would you know kind of go back off and sort of start like

00:21:54.340 recalibrating in terms of the boundaries that they were pushing this is very different than spanking

00:21:59.200 style punishment yeah well because it was immediate and that's so important and it was like simple and it

00:22:05.460 was over it wasn't like this whole like wait till your dad comes home or i'm going to like spank you or

00:22:10.600 just like whatever it's such a structured style of punishment i almost can't imagine it being that

00:22:16.120 like i remember after i had different nannies when i was a kid and some would try that and all it did

00:22:20.600 was just build resentment for me like oh well i really need to undermine this person because i began

00:22:25.940 to see them given the way i was raised as an unjust authority when they would do things like that

00:22:30.000 so i would feel good when i would undermine them and do things that made their lives harder

00:22:35.180 because i was undermining the un the authoritarian state the the bad guy right and so these two

00:22:42.540 parenting styles work so incongruously with each other the the lion style which is one that we've

00:22:47.920 really adapted and our kids um i think people would be like well what if the kids do something

00:22:52.560 really dangerous like run into a road or something like that except they they seem to learn really

00:22:59.440 quickly from this style which is to say first you're like no so most most of them they just don't

00:23:05.080 do the things they're not supposed to do like it's fairly rare that they do something they're

00:23:08.880 generally not supposed to do but when they do you know when they're pushing things a little too far

00:23:12.560 first it's like you know and the kids back off like they understand but they don't feel bad about

00:23:17.620 it and then if they do do something bad we do the bop right which is to say like a lion would

00:23:23.340 where it's clearly not meant to cause physical pain but it's meant to sort of show like you've

00:23:28.840 crossed a boundary and what's really interesting about this is the way the kids emotionally respond

00:23:35.500 to it when you do this it's almost like their brain is structured in a way where it takes it

00:23:42.340 as seriously as if you had caused physical pain so even though you're just slightly like tapping them

00:23:49.420 or something you know like a lion would they like absolutely are are freaked out by it and they're

00:23:55.940 freaked out by it i think because they're sort of genetically coded to be they're genetically coded

00:24:00.320 to oh this is what happens when i have cost boundaries with one of the adults of my tribe

00:24:05.460 i need to emotionally take a lesson from this and i think that some of that emotional lesson can be

00:24:12.040 lost from something like or something as structured as like spanking or something like that because

00:24:17.420 in that moment they're they're waiting they're thinking through the the dominance dynamics that split

00:24:24.320 at play here it's not an organic punishment style and so i i i do question that and i know that i don't

00:24:31.600 know if he recommends spanking in any of his books i'm just giving that as an example yeah he doesn't

00:24:36.260 talk about that i mean i would say broadly jordan peterson's tactics as he described them are very

00:24:41.700 reasonable and mostly what he described was basically just waiting kids out like there was another

00:24:46.320 example he presented of a kid he was babysitting who supposedly allegedly refused to go to sleep each night

00:24:52.880 you know until after he got to do a bunch of indulgent things and jordan peterson would just

00:24:58.180 like keep holding him down in his bed and then just i think like say something like go to bed monster

00:25:02.740 and then like eventually the kid just gave up and went to bed and jordan peterson was very proud of

00:25:07.940 himself for this but yeah it was really just it wasn't like spanking or delayed it was really it was

00:25:13.420 late it was waiting things out and i would say that jordan peterson's strategy does not run

00:25:17.820 afoul of our philosophy on like immediate boundaries because that's exactly what he was

00:25:23.400 showing he was like my boundary is you go to sleep my boundary is you finish your dinner and until you

00:25:27.780 leave like you cannot leave the table until you finish your dinner so it's not wrong it does it does

00:25:34.620 run afoul of my strategy and i can tell you it wouldn't work with me well wait because you would you

00:25:38.480 would backfire you would you would hate you would brush you would bristle at the idea of someone

00:25:43.840 enforcing their will upon you and i understand that whereas your philosophy is very different it's

00:25:48.860 it's when what you do now with our children is show when their will has crossed a line with your

00:25:55.920 will whereas jordan peterson's strategy is i am going to let my will rule this household and you

00:26:02.940 have to bend to my will that yes really like it's like it's fears of will they have a sphere of will

00:26:08.700 i have a sphere of will sometimes i show them their sphere of will has overlapped with my sphere of

00:26:13.620 will yeah and but in the peterson household you enter the peterson sphere of influence and that

00:26:19.020 is the only sphere of influence if that makes sense yeah no no it makes perfect sense and i

00:26:24.300 understand like i i really i get it like and i and again i'm saying i actually don't think it's wrong

00:26:30.200 for the type of of families that really crave structure i think yeah it's incredibly effective

00:26:36.880 and i think people have to experiment and like actually see what works for kids like maybe being the

00:26:41.580 peterson stone wall is the correct way to go and maybe just showing where your boundaries are is

00:26:46.960 the correct way to go but forcing it where it's not going to work is yeah i was just thinking the

00:26:51.340 stereotype of the type of parent who's most likely to do this sort of discipline is of the military dad

00:26:56.440 and there is no draws people that structure more than than military it's a very structured environment

00:27:03.700 so it would make sense why that would that associated stereotype would exist

00:27:08.440 um very interesting and i'd also point out that i i shouldn't like i can i can be like these people

00:27:17.000 are different from me you know and so i i like like for my cultural perspective what they're doing

00:27:22.660 isn't good but it's important to remember that their cultural perspective is necessary society doesn't

00:27:27.520 work if you can't have trained militaries of people who follow order society doesn't work

00:27:32.600 without the disciplined group society doesn't work without the obedient group like it may in in our

00:27:39.300 current world lead to some negative externalities which we've talked about but there is no world like

00:27:46.040 a world where with only people like you know me and rodney atkinson's kids and stuff like that you

00:27:52.700 know that's a world that is chaotic chaotic that's a world that's that's far more chaotic and i think

00:28:00.480 it's a world where even things like historically i mean you know you may have a harder time defending

00:28:06.340 yourself and stuff like that like you've got to look at the way that these two groups historically

00:28:11.240 would have fought wars right like one group the group that can follow orders likely would have

00:28:15.760 led to much larger civilizational structures with things like organized military whereas you know my

00:28:23.420 sociological structure would be much more optimized for sort of a barbarian like environment 0.81

00:28:28.180 where you have small tribes where they fight you know as a as a group but it's about individual

00:28:34.540 prowess and individual you know sort of showmanship and proving to yourself who you are right which is

00:28:41.120 a very different environment and it's a very different cultural structure and they can both be optimal at

00:28:47.860 different points in human history but i think the true optimum is when they work together and and when

00:28:52.680 they respect that they are different and so i think it's just something that we need to be

00:28:57.200 more careful about especially in the conservative community is is coming up with sort of cure all

00:29:02.280 parenting strategies and saying this is the way all families should parent because i think that can lead

00:29:07.960 to really sort of negative aspects when the kids grow up yeah i totally agree and it's nice to hear

00:29:17.180 someone say that there is no particular pathway that's appropriate because yeah i totally and well

00:29:24.400 and also every kid i think even within family like we we might have within our family kids with very

00:29:29.440 different needs in terms of discipline so like i i knew i was never disciplined as a child because i was

00:29:35.440 so self-disciplined like i would you know criticize my parents for being insufficiently disciplined so

00:29:40.780 i'm just thinking like the nights where we've done things were like octavian or or one of the kids

00:29:47.540 like it kept kept getting out of bed because this happened recently anyways i just went downstairs and

00:29:53.320 basically growled at them and was like get in bed now and they go and they get in bed and they go

00:29:59.940 and i'm like don't get out but they then they got out some like like some most of the time they'll stay

00:30:07.080 in bed when i do that but sometimes they want to push boundaries and it's like whatever you know

00:30:11.400 you respect that the room's locked for a reason whatever you know hey they they they went to sleep

00:30:18.300 in their beds didn't they i mean the room is not our our bedroom doors are locked so we can we can

00:30:25.420 hear them and they they can't get in our beds all night while we're like completely passed out but like

00:30:31.460 they can get anywhere in the house and that's the problem like when they start playing with the

00:30:36.440 toilet when they start playing with the kitchen oh yes you got annoyed the other night when one of

00:30:40.840 them decided to start playing with the toilet to jackson pollock uh toilet water all over yeah that

00:30:46.360 was not my favorite moment that's a toddler thing to do it is a very toddler thing to do but yeah no

00:30:52.620 it's it's it's going to be interesting to see how our philosophy on child discipline evolves over time

00:31:01.620 i would say the one thing that i expect to stay very consistent over time which is also something

00:31:06.960 that jordan peterson advocated for so i like it is to not have very many rules just like very few rules

00:31:12.720 be really clear about what really matters and more broadly speaking i would say modeling good behavior

00:31:19.280 is the most important thing that kids are going to reflect what they see so well what do you think i

00:31:24.220 also think that a lot of a kid's behavior is genetic like when i look at our kids their their

00:31:29.020 personalities seem really baked in even from stuff that like we we didn't do with them and it might

00:31:34.160 just be that we're really lucky like our kids just genuinely do not break rules that often they very

00:31:39.460 rarely do bad things and they very rarely are mean to each other and we could take credit for that being

00:31:46.380 our parenting but i suspect a lot of that is just internally who they are and that we've just gotten

00:31:52.420 very easy kids in that respect but i i mean i got easy kids i got self-discipline kids because i married

00:32:00.000 a self-discipline woman um and so keep in mind again when you're choosing partners if you choose

00:32:06.600 a partner that lacks mental self-discipline it's not just them that's going to make your life hell

00:32:12.280 it's your kids that are also going to make your life hell if you marry a narcissistic person it's not 1.00

00:32:16.880 just them that that'll be reflected back through it's the kids and keep in mind that they being an

00:32:21.920 unself-disciplined person or a narcissistic person will raise your kids in an environment where that's

00:32:25.940 being modeled to them and and and that can be very hard for a young child yeah yeah

00:32:34.040 i also like your philosophy just as i guess an ending note of children being like plants that you

00:32:42.700 can't necessarily choose what plant you're going to get like you get mystery seeds and you can build a

00:32:48.280 trellis you can add more water more fertilizer try to change this shade or sunshine situation but in

00:32:53.720 the end like you cannot a pear tree look like a grapevine and grow like a grapevine and vice versa

00:33:00.880 so you have to look at how your kids are behaving and so that's the philosophy upon which our school

00:33:05.500 system is based as well exactly so i'm really curious to see like you know let's say it's 10 years

00:33:10.660 from now and we're like oh man like we had no idea like one of our kids like we're just full out

00:33:16.060 jordan peterson petersoning him like some other kid we're like just anarchy i don't know you know

00:33:22.140 and i also wonder how parents deal especially when they have larger families you know five six kids

00:33:28.260 and those kids require different discipline consistency of discipline is something that

00:33:32.320 you've also pointed out is really important so you know how much of a problem is it going to be

00:33:36.960 if the appropriate discipline for one child is really different from from another child you know

00:33:42.360 like one one kid just needs a to have a long conversation about what was going on whereas

00:33:46.540 the other one needs like you know someone to sort of like like physically restrain them for a second

00:33:53.920 hold them to a wall and let them calm down right like are they going to see that as a

00:33:57.900 position that's rarer than you think all of our kids require basically the same discipline so far

00:34:01.900 i suspect that that's what we're going to that are old enough to be naughty

00:34:06.440 well yeah and and i i see i mean i'm getting the impression of the personalities we're going to

00:34:12.380 get you know you're pregnant with the next one so nine weeks just got the confirmation of the 0.79

00:34:16.560 heartbeat again today it's only 0.5 chance it doesn't make it which is very exciting so yeah i i i think

00:34:23.020 that you might be right but keep in mind you're working with the same parental gene set with all of

00:34:27.560 the kids having a kid that's just a completely different sociological profile instead of just a

00:34:32.380 different personality on top of the same basic profile is pretty unlikely unless you're like

00:34:38.500 adopting or something like that and that's actually something i've i've heard of or noticed in families

00:34:43.120 that adopt kids is having to implement very different parenting strategies for each of the kids

00:34:48.860 whereas when families don't adopt kids generally i haven't heard of that

00:34:52.660 although i have heard occasionally families will have like one demon child that's just like a bad person

00:35:00.740 to start with i i've heard that like the you know the serial killer families and stuff like that and

00:35:05.420 they're like yeah i always knew that this kid you know he kept torturing cats or something what do you

00:35:10.360 do if that happens right terrifying yeah

00:35:12.700 well fingers crossed everything's good and yeah i'm i'm lucky that and we're lucky that our kids are so

00:35:23.420 great that i don't think we're ever going to be driven to the brink with them they're just ethical nice

00:35:29.700 people who also hate authority so yeah they also hate authority so they'll make our lives hard

00:35:34.760 don't worry isn't that the point

00:35:37.700 well i love you so much mel i love you too

00:35:42.440 you

Based Camp - September 22, 2023

Jordan Peterson Vs Us Parenting Strategies

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