It s a truth universally acknowledged that demographic collapse is in part a product of a drop in teen pregnancy, which most people hail as a big, good development. But what if teen pregnancy isn t as bad as it's made out to be?
00:16:51.040And as my wife pointed out to me, this is a perfect example of what we're talking about.
00:17:01.040We might get into this later in the episode.
00:17:03.000But having a kid when you're young can really help stabilize your life if you are otherwise adrift.
00:17:08.720And if you look at the things she's saying in the first video, I mean, yes, the promiscuity is an issue.
00:17:13.760But other than that, she's just somebody saying, I want to do whatever it takes for my kids.
00:17:21.020And I want to have those kids and I want to do whatever it takes and to give them a good life.
00:17:27.340And I think that that's actually admirable.
00:17:30.340And once she brought her kids into the world, her first kid into the world, it's clear that she understood that the way that she thought she was going to be able to live a life dedicated to her kids needed to change and needed to get serious.
00:17:42.680And that's what she did with her life.
00:17:44.660You know, where like people would come on and they'd have ridiculous, like our favorite mother in the entire world who's like, and I'm going to get everything from a baby and all the designer clothes.
00:18:09.380And so, yeah, basically like there, there's this weird bifurcation and the impact of these shows where like most people are like, ew, this is trashy.
00:18:19.860And then there's a couple of people who are like, sign me up.
00:18:23.620And I kind of feel like maybe that's all that matters because that's kind of how it's going to be.
00:18:28.860It's just these are part of our theory around pernatalism is it's just the people who are like, I'm going to have seven, eight, nine kids.
00:18:35.780Like I'm going to keep going forever who are ultimately going to inherit the future.
00:18:38.900And everyone else is like, and maybe I'll have one or two.
00:18:41.120Like they don't really matter because they're not, they're not above repopulation rate.
00:18:45.880So another, another really big show that at least in our youth introduced people to teen marriage and teen pregnancy was My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, which just showcased these over the top, really strange.
00:18:59.080Like, I think part of it was the culture contrast because these gypsy weddings were, they involved very poofy dresses and very like this, this extreme contrast.
00:19:08.480That one gypsy girl you showed me was so badass.
00:19:10.900That was from My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding.
00:19:13.320Yeah. And I, I, I sent with, to Malcolm.
00:19:54.600It's a clip of one girl kind of butting up against the, the gypsy tradition of pink poofy wedding dresses.
00:20:01.280Sometimes it had led lights sewn in because, you know, I think people loved that contrast of like extreme high levels of spending and very conspicuous consumption.
00:20:12.080But then like in these like rundown parts of town, like living out of trailers, it's such an interesting contrast.
00:20:19.940But while people didn't study this as much, so there's not a lot of evidence that an increased interest in teen marriage.
00:20:27.960There's, there's a lot of just academic literature on how it focuses on issues of cultural stereotyping and social impact of stigmatized groups.
00:20:37.840I think, you know, in the end though, this, this falls into the teen pregnancy is trashy camp because that's what the show's really played up.
00:20:46.600And I, I do think that they made teen pregnancy look bad.
00:21:05.960And then I'll, then I'll get into what Russia is doing and then I'll get into what I think we would do instead if we were emperors of the world or Vladimir Putin.
00:21:13.360But when, when we say teen pregnancy, I just want to make clear, like we're mostly talking about age 18 and 19.
00:21:19.580I'm not talking about younger just because medically and I think personality wise, people just aren't necessarily ready.
00:21:27.440And actually when you go and look back in history, there's this perception that people are having kids really, really young and absolutely they were outliers.
00:21:33.500But most people in, in history during the medieval age, Renaissance, et cetera, like they were not having kids until they were around 18 or 19 or into their twenties.
00:21:42.400Really young teen pregnancy was actually fairly unusual.
00:21:47.180And, and there's a good reason for that because fertility in women is generally maximized between the late teens and late twenties.
00:21:54.860And that's when the quantity and quality of eggs are at their peak and the ability to conceive per menstrual cycle is highest.
00:22:00.580So basically there's this Goldilocks zone and basically from 25 to 29 is what, when many medical professionals recommended.
00:22:08.920But I think that's just because they're afraid of recommending that 18 year olds have kids and it's, it, it, it, it maximizes natural fertility.
00:22:16.920Basically, if you have a kid too young, you're at increased risk of preterm delivery, certain infections, and then fetal growth problems.
00:22:23.980So it, there can be, there is a too young age.
00:22:26.940Then, then after 35 risk of pregnancy complications, like high blood pressure, gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, pre preterm delivery, and chromosomal abnormalities, like Down syndrome start to skyrocket.
00:22:39.160And also, you know, there's, there's, there's other health issues and we've discussed this in other things.
00:22:43.520Like when we did the polygenic scores of our embryos, just from age, like approximately 33, 34 to age 35, 36, we saw a steep decline in all of their polygenic risk scores around cancer and Alzheimer's and all these other things.
00:22:59.440Like, oh my gosh, like this is there, it, there's a cliff it's, it's there at least anecdotally.
00:23:05.620I mean, it, it, it hits different when you actually experience it yourself and you see how, how genetic scores play out differently.
00:23:14.040But yeah, also younger mothers tend to, to recover more quickly from pregnancy, but sort of outside of health things, teen pregnancy makes a complete career and motherhood more feasible.
00:23:25.380Because if you start your career at third 30, instead of starting at 40, which is when most women end up starting after like doing the young kids phase at home, if they want to.
00:23:36.420It's a lot easier because I mean, there are lots of young like grads who are just coming out of college at age 30.
00:23:42.360You don't look weird in the job market.
00:23:45.900And if you're in an academic field, you don't even have to wait to start anything.
00:23:49.860You can just do all the front-loaded academic work with an infant and toddlers because the university schedule and lifestyle really works well with that kind of workload.
00:24:00.600So like, I just think it's perfect if you want to do, like, if you want to have it all.
00:24:04.420And you'll also, of course, be more present with your kids because you're not going to be geriatric when they're older and when they have grandkids.
00:24:10.420It's like significantly easier and more scheduled in the early stages of your career.
00:24:17.120If you have a kid every 24 months, which leaves 15 months for recovery after each pregnancy, then you're having a kid at 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, and 30.
00:24:42.780But also, I think the more important thing, and I'd love for us to talk about this a little more because this is kind of the premise that Megan had pointed out.
00:24:50.540It, as is described in Hannah's Children, the book by Catherine Pakalik, it burns the selfishness out of people.
00:24:59.940It could reduce short-term orientation and many of its associated ills in the U.S., leading to better voting patterns and more local and civic engagement.
00:25:08.340I mean, we've met people, like, personally.
00:25:12.620You and I can both think of, like, friends and others that we've met that after having kids, they're just better people.
00:25:20.780Like, there have been people who go from party animal to super parent.
00:25:28.140I mean, like, we recently filmed an episode about this New York Times reporter who just, not New York Times, she wrote a piece in the New York Times about hating men.
00:27:10.680But, yeah, I mean, also beyond all this, just like, and also a bunch of people in our Patreon were talking about this.
00:27:15.660Like, oh, this person and this person in my life.
00:27:18.860Just how they completely changed after they had kids for the better.
00:27:22.380And also pulling in research evidence indicates that most people experience significant increases in responsibility, maturity, and life direction after having kids.
00:27:31.000Mental health usually improves slightly or stays at least stable for both.
00:27:35.980Although, of course, there are strains and challenges, especially for mothers.
00:27:40.660But I actually think that giving someone responsibility and meaningful challenges in their lives is really good for their mental health.
00:27:47.260Like, I think it's much better to be stressed out about being a mom and balancing that with your career or handling childcare or just dealing with the changes and stresses of being a mom than it is to be, like, obsessed with your aging.
00:28:01.560And how are you going to afford the laser skin treatments that you're getting now?
00:28:05.740And I watch a lot of dink female, like, single childless female influencers on YouTube.
00:28:10.900And the things they worry about are just not very healthy.
00:28:23.340You can tell me if you think this is dumb or not.
00:28:26.140But actually, as of this year, so in 2025, following the year of the family in 24 for Russia, meanwhile, they're killing all the young men.
00:28:35.140But whatever, the year of the family, several regions in Russia began offering substantial cash bonuses to pregnant schoolgirls as part of an aggressive effort to reverse their low birth rate and the fact that they're killing other men.
00:28:51.560But, I mean, let's just say, let's pretend that this is a world in which they aren't slaughtering their young men of reproductive age and making everyone super extra depressed because they were already Russians.
00:29:03.200The initiative has, it's also actually drawn a lot of even just local controversy, but they provide a one-time payment of 100,000 rubles.
00:29:12.120That's about 1,200 to 1,300 U.S. dollars to school-aged girls who carry their pregnancy beyond a certain gestational threshold.
00:29:21.220So, for some regions, that's 12 weeks.
00:29:24.940And they have to be registered as full-time students.
00:29:26.880I like this because it's like, one, I think it's normalizing young mothers in school, which I would love to see in the university system and the academic system.
00:29:38.960And, yeah, in some cases, the payments go up to 150,000 rubles, which is around $1,900.
00:29:45.620So, let's give you a sense of scale vis-a-vis the average annual income in Russia.
00:29:50.880So, you could kind of guess what that would be in, like, the U.S.
00:29:54.020So, the average annual income in Russia in U.S. dollars is $14,513, with the median being $8,179.
00:30:04.420So, if we're looking at the lower end, the 1,200.
00:34:08.360But also, like, we're starting to see Gen Z recognize this.
00:34:14.160So I think we're realizing this, and I think we are going to see maybe a rebound in two pregnancies.
00:34:20.040But, yeah, we're super, I think the primary reason, aside from the trashiness equals teen pregnancy propaganda, because we're uncomfortable with teen pregnancies, because they're not, we feel like teens aren't ready to be adults.
00:34:34.980But let me bring us back to Benjamin Franklin, because I'm obsessed with him.
00:34:39.380He's such a pompous turkey, but he's great.
00:34:44.600He worked for his father's candle making shop.
00:34:47.760And then at age 12, he became an apprentice with his older brother, James, as a printer, which came his first significant job and the foundation of his future career at age 12.
00:36:57.140But yeah, so, so actually his, his, his older brother, in response to all this, like, virality of Silence Do Good, the desirable widow, he, he published an ad in the paper asking Silence Do Good to come forward.
00:37:11.280And Benjamin Franklin, he's, he's an incredibly egotistical man.
00:37:14.600He eventually confessed that he was the real author.
00:37:19.980Kind of was probably, like, jealous of all the intention, but, like, this, this, the fallout of it actually led Benjamin Franklin to leave, like, to break the agreement of the apprenticeship and, and go to Philadelphia and start his own life.
00:37:32.660And it's, it's, he has this, also this story.
00:37:36.020By the way, this, this Benjamin Franklin guy she's talking about, he actually did a lot of stuff after this.
00:37:47.920But, you know, he actually made a lot of money from those couple things that he did.
00:37:51.100And at one point, the first time he goes back to Boston, what does he do but show up at his brother's printing shop with his, like, fancy clothes and his pockets full of silver?
00:38:00.460Just pisses off his brother so freaking much.
00:38:03.420And didn't he, like, give out money to other people and stuff like that?
00:38:40.300Like, clearly, these are not the best days of your life.
00:38:44.080But we are missing huge career opportunities.
00:38:48.560I mean, think about, like, the time that people have lost spending, you know, wasted time in school where they're not learning anything useful right now anyway.
00:38:55.160So I would, one, just total culture change on this infantilization of youth thing.
00:39:01.340And I would change the standards of success in secondary education.
00:39:04.180So, like, basically, like, national standards for what high school successfully does, from college enrollment or even graduation to annual tax return performance or some measure of financial independence and social independence.
00:39:17.560Because I think right now, like, I don't know how it was for you in high school, Malcolm, but, like, for me, it was the purpose of high school is to get into a good college, just period.
00:39:25.300It wasn't, like, be a productive citizen, be able to support yourself, be able to pay your taxes, be able to, like, get married.
00:39:32.960So I would also then introduce basically trade school and adulting classes in high school, with adulting being kind of the modern euphemism for home economics.
00:39:41.780So cooking, cleaning, repairs, financial management, like, taxes and investment and budgeting.
00:39:47.060Just, like, to actually use secondary school to create productive taxpaying adults capable of thriving and being happy.
00:39:57.080And then I would get super involved in matchmaking.
00:39:59.520I want to bring back the London season, as you know, like, we're already creating a, we call it the index, or, like, a group of families that will sort of share and compare each other's cultures and traditions to see, like, who's thriving and learn from each other.
00:40:11.940But also, get their kids together in matchmaking events.
00:40:15.120Exactly. So for people who don't know, what we want to do is we want to build, like, Discord or whatever messaging platform is popular in the future, group for our kids and the other kids who are in this network so they can get to know each other and flirt.
00:40:27.500And then say, hey, I want to get to know each other and then say, hey, I want to get to know this person better to us.
00:40:31.820And then they can go live with, for a period, like, a few weeks or a month, the parents of the daughter.
00:40:38.480I think it's better to send the guys to the daughter's house because they'll be more vigilant, you know, have more motivation to be vigilant.
00:40:44.740And they can get to know each other and spend time together and under the context of the parents and they understand, oh, my job is joining a family, right?
00:40:54.080Like, it's impressing the parents, it's impressing the siblings, and if I like this environment and this culture, this is something I want to replicate.
00:41:01.620Yeah, and this is kind of playing with the Puritan tradition of sending out, where parents would also sort of head off the issue of teens being rebellious against their parents by just being like, okay, well, how about you just not be around me and be around someone else's parents?
00:41:16.960And so they'd go and apprentice under a family, maybe, like, neighboring family or a family one town over, and they would both learn a meaningful skill but also live in a household of adults that weren't their parents.
00:41:28.140So they didn't have this immediate need to kind of be rebellious for rebelliousness' sake in a way that hurt them.
00:41:34.640So even if, you know, these relationships don't work out or they're like, you know what, we're actually not that good of a match, like, they're learning about a new family culture.
00:41:42.020They're learning about the adults' careers, which helps them normalize to things, especially if this is, like, a high-achieving family.
00:41:48.080You know, it's helping them understand, hey, I could do this.
00:41:50.480This is not rocket science, even if it's rocket science.
00:41:53.720Like, anyone could do this if they just learned the stuff you need to learn.
00:41:59.500The final thing I would do is, you know, for those who continue to go into higher education, higher education should be seen as a thing that you do while you become a parent.
00:42:19.020It'd be really cool to, like, work with universities to help them create parenting programs and, like, housing and daycare programs and all these other, like, sort of support things that would make it more feasible.
00:42:37.440But what else would you add to make teen pregnancy great again?
00:42:40.860I mean, there was my K-pop chaeble Korean scheme that I'd proposed whereby we would just give huge advantages to dynastic families in South Korea with the demand that each family – like, each child of the dynasty have a ton of kids themselves to make having a lot of kids and having a lot of kids young super prestigious and high class.
00:43:05.940Because I think the trashiness element is a really big issue here.
00:44:06.120And who doesn't want to be a part of that, right?
00:44:09.260Like I want to be – if you had told me when I was in middle school or high school, there's going to be a cover piece on you that's about the techno-fascist takeover, I'd be like, wait, are you serious?
00:44:37.700So, you know, I'm not at all worried about the way the press is framing us, except for that one slate piece, which is like, please stop talking about this couple.
00:44:46.560Well, so the problem – look at it, though.
00:44:48.140Like when the media talks about our actual family life, they're like, it's a life devoid of love.
00:45:20.160And I think we live in a society today where when people hear, oh, this couple is all about, you know, discipline and expectations, but also very tech-focused.
00:45:32.860A lot of people are like, bro, that sounds like something I'm into.
00:45:55.020That was like a car crash in fast motion.
00:45:57.740Well, because, no, I mean, this is what we see so frequently when people go trans is the whole world becomes about them.
00:46:03.800Any show that they're in, any office that they're in, everything like that, you just get more and more self-centered and more and more focused on personal self-affirmation and everything you're doing.
00:46:12.120And then it spirals everything into chaos and destruction.
00:46:15.340But the outside of that, outside of that, you should watch, by the way, if you're interested in this phenomenon and larger things about why people generally fail at things after they become trans, the Wachowski effect.
00:46:30.020Talk about why formerly successful people end up sucking at something they used to be really good at after transitioning.
00:46:39.420Sad that this happens, but it does reliably happen.
00:46:42.300In fact, I can think of almost no one it hasn't happened to.
00:46:45.340Who's transitioned after becoming a public figure.
00:46:47.580I mean, like, first they were public figures.
00:46:49.220Yeah, but there are people who have transitioned, then become public figures, and they're doing great.
00:46:53.120So it's kind of like, you're rolling the dice.
00:46:56.820And either you have to kind of figure out a new specialty and really thrive in it, or just don't expect to keep being good at the thing you were good at.
00:47:03.080You're basically re-rolling your birth stats.
00:47:05.740Like, so much of your biology changes.
00:47:08.020No, it really, it cannot be understated how much hormones, be they natural and endogenous, or the hormones that you consume can affect you.
00:47:18.500Like, I know firsthand, like, both going through pregnancy and seeing how-
00:47:22.660She actually has emotions when she's pregnant.
00:47:51.540You know, it shouldn't be any surprise.
00:47:53.040At any rate, though, I'm really glad that Megan brought this up.
00:47:55.040Because normally when we talk to journalists and news crews about prenatalism and we talk about, you know, the drop in birth rates largely being, you know, people having kids later and a drop in teen births, we're like, and that's a really good thing.