Male Virginity Stats & What Happens to Women When Too Many Women are Around？
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Summary
In this episode, we talk about why virgins are dying out, and why it s not because of porn, but rather because of the incel crisis. We discuss a new study from the Journal of Sex and the Human Development journal, which found that incels are more likely to be virgins at the age of 26 than at any other point in their lives.
Transcript
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they'll talk about things like, and you see this constantly, like, oh, it's the porn that's making
00:00:04.720
everyone virgins these days. Well, it turns out that they're basically wrong on all these fronts.
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Whether or not you watched porn regularly had a huge effect on whether or not you had been able
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to sleep with someone before the age of 26. Just not the way you expect. Yeah, yeah. Of the people
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who had slept with somebody, 80% used porn regularly. So a bit over 80%. Of the people
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who were virgins, it was only 64%. They found a really persistent trend in the data, which was
00:00:41.040
that women, when they believed, and when in actuality it was true, or when they had recently
00:00:48.580
been primed with crowds where there were more women than men chose career pathways instead
00:00:57.540
of marriage pathways. But where this gets really interesting is the change in gender demographics
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within college campuses. Would you like to know more?
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First off, I have to just thank you for being MVP of the day, where I am super distracted
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and sleep deprived and stressed out and crying. So I go on business calls with her on my back
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through the park. And of course, I don't properly latch the fence. And then the professor gets
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out. And I go around trying to find her. And I can't. And then you just save the day not
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only finding the professor, but also- That's our dog, by the way.
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Our dear Corgi, giving our son Octavian the best day and experience of the week by introducing
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him to the park ranger who valiantly found the professor and put her in the car. And I'm
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just, thank you. I really appreciate it. So that was my bad. That was my bad.
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Well, I am excited to be here with you today because today we are talking about virgins,
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dating, and what's the cause of the incel crisis.
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Actually, Simone, I'm going to take a quick aside here. I don't know if I talked over this
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in a previous podcast, but there was a Reddit thread that was on changes in dating behavior.
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No. Okay. Well, I can read it because we may have talked about it, but it's relevant to this.
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My 20-year-old son doesn't date. His friends don't date. My friends' kids don't date.
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What's going on? When I was in my late teens and early 20s, life for my friends and me
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revolved around meeting girls. My son and his friends who are athletic and outgoing don't
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seem to put a lot of emphasis on dating. They play a lot of online video games and have a
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lot of boys' outings. Once in a while, they will hook up with a random girl who they met
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on an app. Rarely does one have a girlfriend. This seems to be the norm for my friend's kids
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too. What's going on? And we did tweet this. We did tweet this. And I looked through the comments
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and there seems to be a couple of common themes. So one is, and this was what surprised me the most
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of the comments, something that didn't occur to me before. Several people argued effectively that
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there's a balkanization of culture that's taking place. That in the past, like when you and I were
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in high school, if you were into anime, you were into anime. Whereas now, like, no, you have to
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like, there are specific obscure shows. Like there are all these different subsets of people.
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Oh, that's BS. This was true when we were in high school as well. If I went to my, like I,
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you know, dated around like with punk indie girls and stuff like that. And if you didn't know the
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right punk indie bands, it wasn't just knowing punk indie bands. You needed to know the right punk indie
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bands. So I disagree. Okay. Another argument was the infantilization of youth, which of course we
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agree. And we talk about that all the time. That's totally an issue. Um, well, I think it's more than
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that. And I think what we learn is causing it is from the statistics because the statistics don't show
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what you think you would show. So there was a study done recently. We're going to talk about two big
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studies on, on, on various changes in dating behavior, but we'll start with this one.
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Yeah. In the journal of sex health, 2021, it studied about 5,000 young men, a bit over that
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who were still 26 Swiss young men. And that always makes me look at things a little bit differently,
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but the studies called for those who want to read it virgins at age 26, who are they? Which I love
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is the title. It's great. So a lot of the stuff that they found was very much what you would think
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they would found like obese people are more likely to be virgins. People with more mental health
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issues are more likely to be virgins, but there were a few things that were like really, really
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big factors in the study that I think would really surprise some people. Oh, absolutely.
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This all makes sense to me. Okay, go on. Well, because a, a lot of people, if you look at like
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the red pill sphere and stuff like that, you know, and they talk about what makes someone a virgin,
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or they talk about like, what are some of the problems that are leading to this, they'll talk
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about things like pornography use. They'll talk about things like, and you see this constantly,
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like, oh, it's the porn that's making everyone virgins these days. They'll talk about things like
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dating apps and stuff like that, which we do think has changed female expectations,
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but they're like, I will find a girl through not engaging with these platforms. Right.
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And instead some of the strong, oh, and also they'll talk about how guys like aren't being
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disciplined enough. Like they're not, you know, they're, they're wasting their lives on like drugs
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and alcohol instead of like getting out there and dating. Right. Well, it turns out that they're
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basically wrong on all these fronts, whether or not you watched porn regularly had a huge effect
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on whether or not you had been able to sleep with someone before the age of 26. Um, just not the way
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you expect. Yeah. Yeah. Of the people who had slept with somebody, 80% use porn regularly. So a bit over
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80% of the people who were virgins, it was only 64%. That's a huge difference. Yeah. Well,
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in dating apps, right. That, that being less likely to have used a dating app correlates with
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being a virgin. So if you're using a dating app. So let's talk about dating apps. With dating apps,
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it was 53.6% for non-virgins. And then for virgins, it was only 35.5%. And I think this is all
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pointing to the raw egg nationalist argument, isn't it? What is that? That, that men are becoming less
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men because of all of the endocrine disruptors that they're subject to this, what these, what these
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common characteristics indicate, isn't a lack of success. It's a lack of drive. They're not even
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watching porn. They're not even trying to get on dating apps. They, and also they're, they're showing
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other signs of a failure to launch. Another characteristic found in common among virgins
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was that they have, they're less likely to have a satisfactory social life and they are less
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likely to live alone, implying that they still live with their parents. Also less likely to be.
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Well, another one is risk-taking behavior. They had like way lower risk-taking behavior.
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Well, we can talk to that in just a second, but I think more is at play here. So if you look at
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something like, have they ever used illegal drugs, it was 17.7% for the non-virgin category and only
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3.4% for the virgin category. So basically none of the virgins had ever used illegal drugs.
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It's also kind of hard if you're like living with your parents and if you're like,
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No, hold on. We're going to get to this because I think you're drawing in-collect conclusions and I
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haven't done the reveal yet. Okay. I like reveals.
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The reveal will surprise you. So if you look at other things like used cannabis, right?
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About 66% of the non-virgins had used cannabis. Only 21% of the virgins had used cannabis.
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Had it ever had a drunkenness episode, 90% of the non-virgins had a drunkenness episode.
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Only 52% of the virgins had a drunkenness episode. In fact, this is such an extreme case. It was like
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91% of you round up that it's almost like it is very rare that you are actually going to have slept
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with someone by the age of 26 if you're a man and you've never gotten drunk.
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The financial situation. Because I think what a lot of people are looking at, and this is what you
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hear was all of this whining that we constantly see.
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Which is, oh, well, it's all the rich guys who are getting all the girls. It's all these,
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you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You know, the rich guys are living on their
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own. That's why some people are living with their parents. Actually, the difference in
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satisfaction. First of all, the virgin men were more satisfied with their financial situation
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I mean, they are more likely to be living at home and that really reduces your public cost.
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Yeah. Easier to be happy with your financial situation. True.
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But to me, that was actually pretty shocking. They might be doing, like, they're not in this
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huge financial crisis that other people are talking about. It is a lack of motivation.
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And that could be why they're satisfied too, is they lack this motivation. Like what we are
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seeing throughout the virgin category is just a persistent lack of motivation and an internal
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How is that not also an endocrine disruptor thing? I mean, there are multiple factors at
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play here, but I do think that a lot of this can be hormonally driven.
00:10:02.040
If you want to approach everything from the position of an external locus of control,
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or you could say that we have a generation that's taught an external locus of control and
00:10:13.520
Well, and we've also seen, like, from the research that you pointed to in the Pragmatist
00:10:18.460
Guide to Sexuality, that men who feel like they're losing or men who, like, philosophically
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go beta are more likely to have lower levels of testosterone. It's not just an endogenous
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thing. It's also, I'm sorry, it's not just an exogenous thing. Sometimes it's endogenous
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because you are, you feel like you're losing or you've kind of given up or you're living in a
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more, you know, packed environment. So yeah, okay. It's, it's maybe not just the stuff they're
00:10:45.040
intaking. It could be the fact that they have chosen to live with their parents and to live
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a more content life. But yeah, that's depressing.
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And this is also where I get to things like, I mean, for me, one of the biggest ones that I think
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would surprise a portion of our audience that is overbought into the red pill mindset. And they're
00:11:01.900
often, I think, very surprised at how promotional we are of pornography and stuff like that on this
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show. Like we often are pretty stans of like, it's ridiculous to have pornography bans and
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marriages, or even at the societal level, because it just doesn't have good effects anymore. And
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you can research this. You can look, as I've mentioned, if you look at the level of religiosity
00:11:21.940
of a zip code, that's often directly correlatory with how much porn is actually consumed within
00:11:26.880
that region. Like the more you put prohibitions on this stuff, the, the, the more like addictive
00:11:32.380
and deleterious it becomes for the individuals who live in these regions, but it doesn't even
00:11:37.040
lead to getting actual sex. Disengaging from pornography makes it much, much, much less
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likely that you will be romantically successful. And there are a bunch of other things too,
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like women who consume erotic material are much more likely to be comfortable with their
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sexuality, blah, blah, blah. I mean like, no, no, no. Just like a cross. Like when we wrote
00:11:58.820
our book, it was one of the chapters where like sometimes in a chapter I'll write like,
00:12:02.140
and this is why porn is bad at first. And then I go into the studies and this happened
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in this chapter. And then I went into all the studies and the studies are just so overwhelmingly
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like, and people will be like, well, progressives manipulate studies. Look, I'm a very skeptical
00:12:15.340
person. I feel like I'm actually pretty good at ferreting out data that's been manipulated.
00:12:19.980
Well, and we came into this expecting to find that, that this consumption was very damaging
00:12:25.540
because we just thought it would be obvious. Yeah, because a lot of people have tried to
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prove this. There's like an intuitive drive to believe this. Well, and so many people online
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are saying it like it's just obviously true. Typical in-cell behavior. And this study shows us
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involuntary celibates are more likely to have these ridiculous porn restrictions on themselves
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than people who are actually sexually successful. Nicer.
00:12:49.580
But now I want to go to the second set of studies that I think you will find.
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So I don't know if you got a chance to look at this, but this was the study on women choosing
00:13:02.400
Mm-hmm. This is wild. I had not seen this ever before. I would not expect this. Go into it.
00:13:08.540
So it was a meta study that looked at this problem from a number of angles. One, it looked at specific
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experimental data where women would like look at photos of groups and determine how many men and
00:13:20.560
women were in the photos. And then they would ask questions of them, like how important is a career
00:13:24.860
to you versus a non-career, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? Versus a husband, et cetera.
00:13:30.140
And then they did this in a few different ways, but then they did a separate set of studies where
00:13:34.640
they looked at data where they were looking at the percentage within specific regions of men to
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women. And then looking at the number of women who went into specific sorts of careers and specific
00:13:47.100
high paying careers. And across the board, they found a really persistent trend in the data,
00:13:54.420
which was that women, when they believed that when in actuality it was true, or when they had recently
00:14:02.980
been primed with crowds where there were more women than men chose career pathways instead of marriage
00:14:12.460
pathways and built value systems and reported value systems for themselves that elevated career
00:14:20.000
over marriage and home life with a husband, kids, et cetera. And what did they go? They want fewer
00:14:24.640
kids, everything like that, which was fascinating. Another fascinating trend in the data was that the more
00:14:30.880
or the less desirable a woman is, the more this affected her. So the less desirable a woman is, and this
00:14:38.360
makes perfect sense, right? Like if she's trying to protect herself and everything like that. But where
00:14:42.880
this gets really interesting is the change in gender demographics within college campuses. You know, we are
00:14:52.520
now, and I think it's continuing to climb at like 65% women on college campuses. So we are throwing women
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into an environment where we already have this fertility crisis that is going to, and we know this from
00:15:05.780
the data, make them instinctually much less likely to want to have a family and to change their value
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system to be much more focused on career because we have thrown them at this critical time of their
00:15:18.340
lives when they really need to be locking down husbands into environments, which changed their
00:15:23.060
perception of like viable life pathways. So I want to hear your thoughts on this, Simone.
00:15:26.960
Yeah. I mean, a lot of this, I always think when I look at studies affecting youth and outcomes like
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these, I think of our children. And then I think, okay, well, how, how are we then going to give our
00:15:38.260
girls an experience that is going to make them think that marriage is viable for them? And I wonder,
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Arranged marriage. We need to find them partners.
00:15:48.600
Obviously arranged marriage. Yeah. Where like parents are very, very involved in sourcing and vetting and
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everything else. Cause I think it's, that was big in the past and it's not big now, but I do wonder
00:15:58.040
if like our girls may be having a higher ratio of male siblings would influence that. Like if they
00:16:05.880
grow up more around boys, but I mean, it just, it just makes so much sense. Evolutionarily speaking,
00:16:10.420
like if, if women realize that the competition is really intense and that they're just not likely to
00:16:15.420
get a good male partner, it's definitely better to find out how to make your own resources because
00:16:20.720
you're not going to get someone. And then the goal of doing this is to still sleep around and get
00:16:24.180
pregnant, which they're not doing. I mean, from an evolutionary perspective, it's don't expect on a
00:16:28.920
monogamous partner to support you, but do still get pregnant. But support yourself and yeah, probably
00:16:33.400
also have kids, but no one's doing that anymore. Which they're giving up on the second part, you know,
00:16:36.840
but we've had our video on, you know, 50% of people born these days are now born to single mothers
00:16:42.340
when it used to be 5%. And it just, you know, 30, 40 years ago. So I guess we are seeing a lot of
00:16:48.560
women choosing this pathway, merely or involuntarily. Yeah. Yeah. It does. It does make me wonder like
00:16:55.680
how, how to get women around this and in what, in what environments today, realistically,
00:17:03.620
are women going to see a higher ratio of men? I guess engineering schools?
00:17:09.480
No, they need to start going to more, you know, D and D events. They need to start going to more
00:17:13.820
Warhammer. Okay. Okay. And they need to start hanging. What? No, actually. So this is a phenomenon
00:17:19.900
I've noticed where women who hang out in predominantly male spaces are either like complete
00:17:26.900
psychos are really cool. And I think it's what drew them into those spaces. Typically the attractive
00:17:34.060
women I know who hang out in male dominated spaces are generally pretty cool. And it's because they,
00:17:39.740
they didn't go into those spaces because they were playing an arbitrage game. But I do know this
00:17:44.500
separate class of what I call like, Oh, what is it on the, I forget the name of the band, triple X, like
00:17:49.640
the famous song from when I was growing up. Oh boy.
00:17:58.400
Which is that there's this sort of like overweight, otherwise unattractive, really sexually aggressive
00:18:10.200
type, which enters predominantly male spaces and then attempts to control them because they
00:18:16.620
now have this arbitrage play to, to, to, to play. And they cause a lot of social unrest in
00:18:23.160
these spaces, which makes a lot of sense. I mean, if, if it's a, it's a good play, honestly,
00:18:29.200
if you're an unattractive woman and you want to take advantage of men go into environments. And
00:18:36.720
this is a thing where, you know, you get a lot of gatekeeping in these environments and women are
00:18:40.600
like, why is there so much gatekeeping in these environments? I feel angry. It's because a lot of
00:18:44.920
women have tried to exploit these environments for their benefit.
00:18:48.320
Yeah. I mean, I've always seen women who play that game, like the gamer girl as being kind of
00:18:55.520
a hated group because a lot of it was seen as insincere and, but I mean like the famous ones
00:19:01.920
online were also hot. So I don't know if you're, you know, yeah. Well, I mean, I think that if
00:19:09.320
they're famous online, that's a completely different category. That's an incredibly small minority of
00:19:14.000
people that went into the space. But generally what I've noticed is the hot ones that didn't
00:19:19.080
need to enter the space, but did because they liked it, which, which you often see with the
00:19:23.400
hot ones is more common. They're generally pretty cool and they'll, they'll downplay it a lot.
00:19:28.760
Well, do you think women in the military who serve in the military, which is, I think a more male
00:19:37.120
environment are more likely to get married? Cause I don't super get the impression that that's the
00:19:43.240
case, but maybe there's too many confounding variables there.
00:19:46.320
I think there's too many confounding variables.
00:19:48.920
Well, where would we put our daughters? Like where would we try to socially engineer them to hang out?
00:19:52.780
I think the goal for us is actually just put them in a STEMI ultra nerdy sort of
00:19:58.600
Well, ultra high agency hobbies. Like if you're starting a business, unless you're in like one of those
00:20:04.340
going nowhere, female business support groups, which we would never put our daughters in because they
00:20:09.520
don't do anything, you're predominantly around men, you know, investors are mostly men and,
00:20:16.520
you know, investing related groups are mostly, mostly men. If they're actually getting anything
00:20:21.740
done. I, I just, I mean, there are so many female entrepreneur groups out there, but I actually find
00:20:29.280
Oh, they totally are. Well, I used to go into them to pick up girls and I never got good girls at
00:20:34.380
the female entrepreneur events. Well, and also like, I don't know if I am aware of companies
00:20:41.200
that have come out of these that have done famously well.
00:20:47.120
No, I don't either. And we, we knew a lot of the, yeah, the girls who I know who started
00:20:51.120
successful companies, they did not go to the female entrepreneur events.
00:20:54.700
Yeah. Well, you know, obviously she's not a great example, but Elizabeth Holmes, like when,
00:20:58.540
you know, full out, even Amanda Bradford, this is one who we knew personally, right? You know,
00:21:05.200
she recently sold it to the match group. She never went to these sorts of events. In fact,
00:21:11.160
she didn't really socialize that much at all. She was, you know, kind of isolated. Honestly,
00:21:16.020
I think a lot of umbrage, she kind of, we were friends early in my time at the GSB. And then she
00:21:21.020
started like just shunning me. But I think it was because I was known as like weird and uncool
00:21:25.080
by the, the quote unquote, cool kids. There was this really like catty group of people at Stanford
00:21:34.560
that I think just thought they were. Yeah. And that, yeah, that would like go on their little
00:21:40.520
like retreats and stuff, but only invite like other cool kids. And yeah, I didn't get invited to that
00:21:46.460
stuff. I've, I've never been good at being one of the cool kids. Okay. You had me. Hey, I won. I
00:21:52.820
don't, I don't, I don't know if their lives are as good as mine. I don't, I doubt it. I don't know
00:21:56.820
anyone who has a life as good as ours. Our life is incredibly good. It's really fun. Look at this.
00:22:02.800
Look at what we're doing right now. This is ridiculous. But yeah, no, this, this was interesting
00:22:07.060
to me. And I just never heard this example of like adaptive female behavior based on group
00:22:13.100
composition. And it makes a lot of sense, but it's also sobering given what you said, right? That
00:22:19.600
like there are so many environments. Well, not just colleges too. Like a lot of bureaucracies
00:22:24.840
are predominantly female. Like a lot of pretty powerful organizations are becoming quite female
00:22:29.420
dominated. So this is not going to drive pronatalist behavior, which is also disappointing because,
00:22:37.720
you know, highly educated, conscientious, high achieving women are probably also going to be
00:22:44.960
pretty decent mothers, I would think. So it's a disappointment.
00:22:50.420
Well, I just think the goal for us is to put our girls into male dominated spaces as much as
00:22:58.700
possible. Well, what are you going to do with our boys to make sure that they're not obese and still
00:23:03.720
at home and not watching? Are we going to be like, watch your porn? Watch it right now.
00:23:09.200
Yeah. I mean, I think focus them on being incredibly high internal locus of control
00:23:14.260
and, and sort of gives them agency in terms of starting careers and stuff like that.
00:23:19.340
If you focus on that stuff, I think they'll do well, especially if you give them good social
00:23:24.680
training in terms of how to meet and talk to random people. Cause I think it's the outreach
00:23:29.860
and the fear of rejection that, which is where these people are failing. And I think that those are
00:23:34.240
areas that we can fix and build community. I mean, that's why we're so focused on community
00:23:38.960
building. Honestly, this channel takes a bit of a hit with all of our community building attempts
00:23:42.880
in terms of theology and stuff like that. But we don't really mind because one of our core goals
00:23:48.340
is to build this hermetically sealed zone of sanity where our kids can be culturally safe.
00:23:57.480
And that involves cultural outreach. One thing I was going to mention that I thought you'd find pretty
00:24:01.940
funny is the professor just snuck her way in. Um, and when Octavian was out, this is our dog
00:24:10.500
looking for the professor. Cause you were talking about this at the beginning of the episode.
00:24:14.160
He goes and he goes, Oh, data. I think professor is a meatball now. I think she ran in the road
00:24:20.960
and died. I was calling and he kept going data professor's a meatball now.
00:24:26.720
Oh my God. He didn't seem sad. He was a little concerned. No, he wasn't like happy about it. He
00:24:34.440
was like, but like trying to console me, like that I couldn't deal with the fact that the professor
00:24:41.540
had turned into, cause he knows, I tell him if he goes into the road, he's going to turn into a
00:24:45.920
meatball. Oh, that's where this is coming from. I'm like, where did he figure that out?
00:24:49.820
He's going to turn into a meatball. I mean, not untrue. He thinks the professor has turned into a
00:24:55.920
meatball. You know, actually it's so annoying when this happens, but like the next time a deer is
00:24:59.720
killed, we need to just like show him death. Oh, I agree. Yeah. He needs to internalize. I mean,
00:25:06.460
I was actually thinking if she did die in the road, I'd really make him like look at it and
00:25:10.220
internalize it. So he'd understand why we tell him not to run into the road. Yeah. I mean,
00:25:16.100
yeah. Cause it's legit dangerous. Well, no, I mean, we're, we're, I mean,
00:25:20.360
we're right next to a major through fair, you know, a kid could easily, you know, it's a state
00:25:24.500
route. Yeah. We are on a proper state route with pretty fast traffic. So not safe, not safe,
00:25:32.580
but I, yeah, I'm really sorry that I, um, could have been responsible today for the dog dying.
00:25:40.620
Yeah. Apparently she was down by the road. Oh my God. But she's so smart. And yet how could she do
00:25:47.320
something so dumb? She doesn't know about the road. Professor, professor. So don't make meatballs
00:25:54.920
out of our, our pupsters. I thought the gate was locked. I'm sorry. Thank you for saving the day.
00:26:01.160
You are amazing. You are amazing. You have saved the day in so many ways. You read the comments when
00:26:06.500
I'm embarrassed to read them. You, I don't, I can't deal with comments. Like I struggle so much
00:26:13.120
in engaging on social media and stuff like that. Cause you know, I don't like rejection. I don't
00:26:18.320
like, you know, when people are like, Oh, this is a dumb idea, especially if they have a good argument.
00:26:22.380
So I try not to engage with that, even when they don't have a good argument, you know,
00:26:25.820
we get a few negative things and I'm like, okay, no more tracks anymore. I'm done with that. I'm being
00:26:31.100
way too vulnerable in these. I'm taking it way too seriously. And that's what I like about it.
00:26:36.800
So many people, and this is like, not in just religious zones, but so many people in all realms
00:26:44.380
of life are completely unwilling to share their work as they go along to expose their thought
00:26:51.720
processes, to say potentially dumb stuff as they're working things out and thinking aloud. And yet
00:26:56.440
this is how people deliberate and learn. I mean, that's the famous thing with like,
00:27:01.840
it's funny, all of these bio nerds, this is a famous trend, you know, whether you're talking
00:27:06.160
about Gregor Mendel or Darwin or, you know, people who don't know the story of Gregor Mendel, like
00:27:11.860
his work was discovered like 50 years after he died by somebody else. And they were like, Oh,
00:27:17.960
this guy basically figured out heredity like long before, but he was embarrassed that people would
00:27:24.060
make fun of him. And so he didn't want to talk about it. And so he published it pretty obscurely.
00:27:27.780
And then Darwin sat on his work for decades. And he's like, I don't want people to tease me about
00:27:34.140
this. So, you know, I guess it's a trend of those of us who are really like science brain to be a bit
00:27:40.620
afraid of talking about any of the ideas that could get us shunned by communities.
00:27:44.460
Yeah. Then what amazing inventions and great ideas and breakthroughs are we not enjoying as a society
00:27:51.940
because someone took that to the grave. It bothers me. So thanks for being brave enough to put shit
00:28:02.740
I really appreciate it, Simone. I do none of this if you didn't, you know, one support me in terms of,
00:28:09.840
you know, helping move our companies and projects forwards, but also support me emotionally in terms
00:28:16.640
of going into the comments and I'm like, it's important to check the comments today. You know,
00:28:20.180
it could be spicy. Oh, well, I appreciate that. Thanks for also not hating me for
00:28:26.600
messing things up constantly. So I love you, Malcolm. I love you too. Have a great day.