Based Camp - November 28, 2023


Males Who Flex Wealth Are Gender Swapped THOTs


Episode Stats

Length

33 minutes

Words per Minute

180.84915

Word Count

6,040

Sentence Count

396

Misogynist Sentences

58

Hate Speech Sentences

52


Summary

In this episode, we discuss why it's not as obscene for a man to signal his wealth as it is for a woman to signal her sexual availability. And why is it that women are so obsessed with flaunting their sexuality?


Transcript

00:00:00.000 When I see older men do this, right, it reminds me a lot of an older woman trying to show
00:00:07.120 off her sexuality, like a Madonna showing off her sexuality.
00:00:09.780 Every time I see some old man with eight fancy cars in his garage, and he's married.
00:00:14.300 And I'm like, why aren't you investing in your kids' companies?
00:00:17.820 Why aren't you helping them get off the ground?
00:00:19.840 And if you don't have kids, why aren't you putting money into causes that you care about?
00:00:23.920 The world is literally falling apart, and you are sexually signaling to a fucking mirror.
00:00:30.320 It's weird and pathetic.
00:00:34.040 Yeah, I mean, it is interesting that it isn't seen as obscene in society for a man to signal
00:00:42.140 his wealth as it is for a woman to signal her sexual availability.
00:00:46.780 And why I think it's uniquely strange is that we already live in a society that demoralizes
00:00:52.420 men for pretty much everything else they do.
00:00:55.020 Why do you think this isn't being demoralized?
00:01:00.000 So there's easy glib answers I could get, right?
00:01:04.460 Like, they want men to waste their lives.
00:01:06.980 They don't want money that could go to fixing things, to go to fixing things, because fixing
00:01:11.860 things removes the people in power from power.
00:01:13.920 I don't think this is why.
00:01:15.260 No.
00:01:15.780 I'm just being clear.
00:01:16.360 I don't think this is why.
00:01:17.200 I'll tell you why.
00:01:20.460 Would you like to know more?
00:01:21.380 Hello, gorgeous.
00:01:22.740 Hello, Simone.
00:01:23.780 It is wonderful to be here with you today.
00:01:25.480 I am excited for this topic.
00:01:28.940 It came up when we were doing the Just Pearly Thing recording.
00:01:31.660 Like, in the moment, I was thinking about this, because in the episode, the thesis...
00:01:37.780 Yeah, hold on.
00:01:38.140 For context, a couple of weeks back, we were on the Just Pearly Things pregame show.
00:01:42.960 It is a panel-based show where Hannah Pearl Davis, you know, discusses various topics and
00:01:48.340 a bunch of randos who show up discuss with her.
00:01:51.740 And one thing that she started doing near the end of the pregame show was pull up images
00:01:56.420 of women on Twitter and criticize them for dressing in provocative ways.
00:02:02.640 So...
00:02:02.960 Which, you know, it's funny that maybe if you look at our episode with Louise Perry, what
00:02:08.520 we need as a society, more women...
00:02:10.420 I don't know if that episode will air before this one or not, but more women being criticized
00:02:14.580 for when they are outside of their younger age phase.
00:02:18.280 Because, you know, women, like men, go through multiple phases where they are psychologically
00:02:23.240 optimized for different things, which they should be optimized for different things.
00:02:27.600 And if you are a mother and a wife, you know, being a thirst trap, it's probably not...
00:02:33.640 You've got to ask, why are you still doing that?
00:02:35.480 Like, why are you still looking for validation from men who are not your husband on online
00:02:40.960 environments, right?
00:02:42.220 That is something that maybe people should be shamed for.
00:02:46.720 So...
00:02:48.380 Anyway.
00:02:50.680 However, we had a theory on this show that came up that I had never really sought through
00:02:55.220 before.
00:02:55.740 You would support the idea of using social shaming to encourage society to ease into various
00:03:02.860 stages of life that actually work sustainably.
00:03:05.100 Like, going from being a young woman who banks on her sexual attractiveness to being more
00:03:11.960 of a matriarch who focuses more on motherhood and building a career than to more of a matriarch
00:03:17.440 who focuses on mentorship and using shame to kind of enforce that.
00:03:21.160 Yeah?
00:03:22.080 Yeah.
00:03:22.680 And I think this makes sense.
00:03:24.100 And I think that, you know, it was in the red pill we see this.
00:03:26.140 Okay.
00:03:26.580 If a woman is married and she is projecting to society, I am in a monogamous relationship,
00:03:31.700 you know, why is she doing this stuff, right?
00:03:33.380 Like, why is she doing this sexual signaling?
00:03:35.740 We would look at her really weird if she walked down the street with like little, you know,
00:03:40.620 pins on her nipples and nothing else.
00:03:43.600 And in some ridiculous outfit, you're like, who are you signaling to?
00:03:46.520 And worse than walking down the street, posting pictures on social media.
00:03:50.420 But this gets really interesting.
00:03:51.360 So what is the male equivalent to this, right?
00:03:55.720 Well, in humans, women signal using their bodies often.
00:04:02.360 That is how they attract mates.
00:04:04.460 How do men often attract mates?
00:04:06.800 Well, men attract mates showing success and material wealth.
00:04:11.100 That being the case, the male equivalent to this sort of vain sexual advertisement is a man
00:04:26.300 who is in a, at least claimed monogamous relationship with kids and stuff like that,
00:04:33.220 wasting money on vanity signals of wealth.
00:04:38.140 Yeah, flaunting his wealth, essentially to like, yeah, if women bring their youth and beauty
00:04:45.200 and we'll say fertility to the table, then what men bring is their resources.
00:04:49.860 So a man flaunting his resources is doing the same thing as a woman flaunting her body and youth, right?
00:04:55.680 I mean, who are you signaling to?
00:04:57.100 You know, if you're a married man, right, especially a married man with kids, and you get some ultra fancy car,
00:05:03.080 you know, that money could have gone to your kid's education.
00:05:05.140 That money could have gone to making the world a better place.
00:05:07.620 Like, why specifically were you doing that?
00:05:11.260 And this gets really interesting to me because when we were on the panel, there was this other guy.
00:05:15.180 I like him.
00:05:15.720 He's a nice guy.
00:05:16.420 Like, I didn't want to, like, debate him or anything on the show.
00:05:19.100 But his job is selling status to young men through fancy suits and stuff like that, right?
00:05:25.360 And he seems to really indulge in this status.
00:05:28.660 And he was like, yeah, but, well, first, the first thing he was like is, well, fancy cars
00:05:35.240 helped me get my wife to sleep with me, basically.
00:05:37.800 He's like, I got a fancy car, and that's why I have as many kids as I have.
00:05:41.560 So, you know, you guys as pernatalists should be promoting fancy cars.
00:05:45.380 Which is, to me, I think that's just cope.
00:05:47.480 You don't need that to get someone to sleep with you.
00:05:49.560 I mean, I think the women who are most satisfied in their relationships feel supported
00:05:52.880 and loved and also see, you know, their male partners, especially if they already have
00:05:58.140 kids, being great dads.
00:05:59.400 Like, to me, that is the sexiest stuff you ever do.
00:06:02.120 Well, I mean, it just isn't true.
00:06:04.740 So, if you are in a long-term married relationship and your wife only sees you attractive when you
00:06:10.440 increase in terms of wasteful displays of wealth...
00:06:14.580 That's worrying.
00:06:15.520 That's a bad...
00:06:16.120 Also, I can't imagine doing that.
00:06:19.100 Like, to be a partner and then feel more secure in your partner choice when your partner spends
00:06:26.480 money on luxury goods.
00:06:28.540 And keep in mind, by the way, the typical male spending for sexual signaling, you know, cars,
00:06:34.260 watches, suits, etc.
00:06:36.460 This is not really stuff that benefits a female partner.
00:06:40.440 Yeah.
00:06:40.560 It is stuff that benefits the male partner.
00:06:42.280 You know, taking a female partner for a ride to the store in your fancy car, I'm sorry.
00:06:47.040 That is not improving your quality of life.
00:06:48.860 Maybe buying a nicer house, maybe getting nice furniture or luxury trips, you know, stuff
00:06:53.140 that the family enjoys together.
00:06:54.080 But that's not what is happening in these displays.
00:06:57.580 You know, the classic displays are the expensive suit, the Rolex, the car.
00:07:02.160 Is there anything else?
00:07:03.020 What are the classic things?
00:07:04.600 Sometimes the ripped body.
00:07:06.100 I think the ripped body is the new...
00:07:08.340 Is kind of the tech billionaire's flex.
00:07:10.540 Oh, yeah.
00:07:11.100 Body.
00:07:11.580 Yeah, as well.
00:07:12.280 Yeah, who are you spending all this time improving your body for, right?
00:07:15.480 If you're, you've got a wife, you've got kids, you know, if you're spending X many hours
00:07:20.960 a day at the gym, that's...
00:07:22.040 It looks super ripped.
00:07:22.920 I mean, obviously, being healthy is important, right?
00:07:25.240 And no one wants like a fat slob.
00:07:25.940 Yeah, we're not talking about...
00:07:27.600 This is very different.
00:07:28.620 There is a health body, and then there is a body that you are obviously sacrificing health
00:07:33.760 to achieve.
00:07:35.080 And these are two different things.
00:07:36.560 And it is as I think obscene as a woman who is married walking around in a very skimpy
00:07:45.060 outfit.
00:07:45.240 And what's really interesting is you'll hear arguments from men who indulge in this that
00:07:50.280 really mirror the arguments you're hearing from women who indulge similarly.
00:07:53.940 Oh, yeah.
00:07:54.600 Oh, like my husband likes it slash my wife likes it, right?
00:07:58.320 Right.
00:07:58.740 Well, I would say the first one that I think you hear is, I just like doing it for me.
00:08:02.940 Why don't I get to do things for me?
00:08:06.180 It's like, if you talk to a woman, you call a woman out on this and you see this, you know,
00:08:10.320 because there were other women in that room who had clearly done this before where you're
00:08:13.360 like, why are you posting thirst trap photos on public profiles when you're a married
00:08:18.720 woman?
00:08:19.040 And they're like, well, I like doing it for me.
00:08:21.620 What do you like about it?
00:08:23.580 You like the way people respond to it.
00:08:27.440 What kind of people, right?
00:08:29.380 There is an intended audience for this.
00:08:32.040 Now, where guys may have some level of cover is they could say, well, yes, but the intended
00:08:38.280 audience is other guys.
00:08:44.500 Okay.
00:08:45.080 And, you know, the same, now the same argument could be used for other women.
00:08:48.340 I mean, many people have argued that women only wear makeup really for other women, which
00:08:52.380 is not entirely.
00:08:54.420 I mean, they do to an extent, you know, within these inter-women social status hierarchies.
00:08:58.540 But here's the interesting thing.
00:09:00.320 If you're doing it for other women or other guys.
00:09:01.960 So if I am a woman and I am posting thirst trap photos to signal to other women, my relative
00:09:08.720 hierarchy within those female social circles, I am judging my hierarchy by my desirability
00:09:17.060 to men.
00:09:18.140 There are ways.
00:09:18.720 Yeah.
00:09:18.920 You're still competing along what you would consider like assorted or misaligned.
00:09:24.720 Exactly.
00:09:25.300 There are ways that women can signal hierarchy to other women that are not about how attractive
00:09:31.760 they are to men.
00:09:32.800 I mean, look at you, right?
00:09:34.020 Whether it is your career or your kids or your husband, like people, when they go to
00:09:40.980 your Instagram and you can go to her Instagram, Simone H Collins.
00:09:43.540 I love it.
00:09:44.020 Great Instagram.
00:09:44.740 My Malcolm Collins fan account.
00:09:46.820 Yeah.
00:09:47.220 No, but it is, it is signaling your status to other women.
00:09:50.520 And people look at this.
00:09:51.240 It's very clear.
00:09:52.000 You are signaling your status to other women on this account through your husband's dedication
00:09:56.880 to the family.
00:09:57.580 Yeah.
00:09:57.740 Look at what I have.
00:09:58.480 I have this amazing husband and these amazing kids.
00:10:00.960 Why are you posting this?
00:10:02.140 By the way, I didn't even know.
00:10:03.220 Like I found this account like long after we'd been married.
00:10:06.060 And it's basically a pervy Malcolm account.
00:10:08.640 Not even pervy.
00:10:09.840 It's just my husband is sweet to me all the time.
00:10:12.020 Here are all the things he does.
00:10:13.680 But that is how you are social signaling to your friends, right?
00:10:17.120 In other words, you're saying, you know, in response to the female argument of, oh,
00:10:20.740 I just want to, I enjoy this or I want to show my status.
00:10:23.620 Because, well, you can show your status in ways that aren't thirst trappy and that do
00:10:27.460 still appeal to both men and women, just not in a way that's like a signaling sexual
00:10:32.340 availability.
00:10:34.060 Yeah.
00:10:34.900 Yeah.
00:10:35.260 But I think the same thing's happening with men.
00:10:38.460 Yeah.
00:10:38.940 Yeah.
00:10:39.060 Men could like, yeah.
00:10:39.860 And actually, you know, the guys that I follow on Instagram are posting pictures of their
00:10:44.320 wives and kids, actually.
00:10:45.600 So that's totally accurate.
00:10:46.900 Yeah.
00:10:47.620 I mean, there are multiple ways that a man can compete within his social hierarchy of other
00:10:51.840 men.
00:10:52.140 He can compete by showing how dedicated his wife is to the kids, showing their lifestyle
00:10:56.800 together, showing the things they do together, or he can compete by showing the wealth shit
00:11:04.400 he's buying, right?
00:11:06.700 And if you are showing the wealth shit you're buying, you are clearly signaling, you know,
00:11:11.480 what status game you're playing.
00:11:13.660 And it is not the long-term partner status game.
00:11:17.000 And I think historically society understood this.
00:11:19.820 It is obscene and vulgar for a man to indolently show signs of wealth like this.
00:11:29.980 Now, okay.
00:11:31.920 But riddle me this, because there's this one thing that gets me a little confused.
00:11:37.240 And we saw a lot of this when we lived in Miami.
00:11:39.420 There were plenty of Miami couples where the man did the suit and the Rolex and the car and
00:11:47.460 his girlfriend did the looks like an Instagram model thing with extremely revealing clothing,
00:11:54.200 et cetera, et cetera.
00:11:55.420 So here you have a couple where both are doing that and they're very much, and I know couples
00:12:00.580 too.
00:12:00.760 Like, I have followed them because some of them had been clients of our business who together
00:12:06.760 post a lot of images of themselves both in those things.
00:12:10.900 You know, the woman is extremely scantily clad.
00:12:13.620 The man is in the fancy car.
00:12:16.120 What's going on there?
00:12:16.940 Are you trying to say that they're both trying to signal sexual availability?
00:12:20.800 No, I actually think this is a very unique phenomenon.
00:12:23.120 I'll call it the trophy wife dynamic.
00:12:25.160 Okay.
00:12:26.540 So in the trophy wife dynamic, an individual has a wife specifically because of how that
00:12:32.960 wife positively augments their status in a sexual context, right?
00:12:38.580 Like they want the wife to be attractive and vapid and to show other men how quote unquote
00:12:45.800 submissive and breedable they are, but like they don't actually breed them, right?
00:12:49.220 They are a trophy.
00:12:50.620 They are not a utility wife.
00:12:52.060 The thing about trophy wives is that they are fundamentally disposable.
00:12:58.260 And this is why a woman should never, ever, ever marry a man as a trophy wife.
00:13:01.920 It is a fucking terrible job.
00:13:03.720 And the reason is, is because as you age as a woman, your value on the sexual marketplace
00:13:08.960 declines.
00:13:09.860 The core reason this guy wants you, the reason why he's letting you post all this thirst trap
00:13:14.300 stuff with him, right?
00:13:16.000 Is because he is showing off your sexual value to his male friends.
00:13:20.180 Well, the problem here is that if that is the value that he sees in you, a younger woman
00:13:27.440 is always going to be able to out-compete you in that value set.
00:13:31.340 If that is all you're bringing to the relationship, you're bringing no productivity gains, no children,
00:13:35.340 no anything like that.
00:13:36.420 Well, okay.
00:13:37.680 You hit 40.
00:13:39.120 You hit 45.
00:13:40.580 You were with this rich guy.
00:13:42.200 Of course, he's just going to trade you in for a younger model.
00:13:44.620 And then what do you have?
00:13:46.500 You've got no skills and no career, nothing to fall back on at all.
00:13:51.680 You are completely both used and disposable and disposed.
00:13:58.680 And I think a lot of women don't realize what's happening in this.
00:14:01.640 I think in these instances, you know, it's clear what the guy is doing.
00:14:05.520 If the guy is using you, your body, to sexually signal to his friends, you are disposable to him.
00:14:12.120 So, that's what I think is going on.
00:14:16.480 Yikes.
00:14:17.860 Well, I mean, do you disagree or?
00:14:20.480 Yeah.
00:14:20.980 Well, so, I mean, basically, it's this, it almost sounds like a weird predator-prey situation
00:14:27.680 where the prey is going around being like, look at me, she's so great.
00:14:30.840 And they have no idea that they're on the chopping block, like, already by design.
00:14:35.060 Well, they've turned themselves into a product.
00:14:37.840 Yeah.
00:14:38.200 And they, I mean, the thing is, is that if you're a woman, this is always the option if
00:14:43.160 you're born attractive, right?
00:14:44.740 Yeah.
00:14:45.200 But it's a stupid fucking option.
00:14:47.380 And this is one of the things, you know, so a lot of, you know, red pill guys are like,
00:14:50.400 women have it so easy, blah, blah, blah.
00:14:52.780 But not really.
00:14:55.760 Not really.
00:14:56.860 They have dumber temptations that are easier to fall into that fuck up their lives more than
00:15:03.480 yours.
00:15:03.920 Yeah, like men are more likely, in other words, to be forced to build a strong job and
00:15:08.900 career independence, at least financial independence, and, you know, at least to be able to fend
00:15:13.460 for themselves no matter what happens.
00:15:15.420 Whereas women are encouraged, incentivized by societal norms to, you know, focus on a very
00:15:22.860 fleeting asset, which is their youth and beauty, to like, to enter a relationship in which they
00:15:30.560 won't necessarily stay.
00:15:33.000 And then what happens after that falls apart?
00:15:35.980 I mean, a smart male, definitely, and a smart female.
00:15:39.100 Like, if I was to compare the two, smart male, smart female, equal attractiveness, the man,
00:15:45.400 I'm sorry, the woman definitely has it better.
00:15:48.020 Of the smart people, huh?
00:15:49.520 Of the smart people, right.
00:15:50.640 Because they can utilize these assets, they can see what's out there, they can see the
00:15:54.260 temptations.
00:15:54.940 But when I'm talking about a dumb male and a dumb female of above-average attractiveness,
00:16:00.160 I actually think that the dumb male has it much better than the dumb female.
00:16:03.860 Yeah, fair.
00:16:04.440 Well, yeah, because essentially the dumb male will have a harder time doing dumb shit, right?
00:16:10.780 They'll have a harder time truly fucking up their life in the way that a woman will be
00:16:14.960 incentivized to.
00:16:16.160 Yeah.
00:16:16.480 Well, they're less likely to be successful at doing dumb things, whereas women are more
00:16:19.760 likely to be successful at doing dumb things that will hurt them over the long run,
00:16:22.820 right?
00:16:23.860 Yeah.
00:16:24.460 Like, men are more likely to be forced.
00:16:27.160 So that's...
00:16:28.440 Well, this is something that you had said to me recently, and I'd love you to go over
00:16:31.180 and hear the MGTOW thing, where you're like, look, if you're a guy, like, and you get fucked
00:16:36.840 over, you can become a MGTOW.
00:16:38.960 But if you're a girl, what do you do?
00:16:41.400 Yeah.
00:16:41.820 I'm really referring to uncoupled men and women.
00:16:44.540 Yeah, but yeah.
00:16:45.020 But I mean, yeah, this applies.
00:16:46.100 So while a lot of people are looking now at, like, men's rights movements, you know,
00:16:52.140 people who are aware of how men are screwed over in divorces, how men are screwed over
00:16:56.980 in dating, you know, how men are...
00:16:58.680 Like, really, societal forces are way more against men than women, which would lead people
00:17:03.440 to logically conclude that men are worse off.
00:17:06.080 But my argument is that men are not worse off.
00:17:08.840 When you actually look at rates of unhappiness and mental health problems, who has a bigger
00:17:14.800 mental health problem?
00:17:15.640 It is young women, specifically progressive young women.
00:17:19.420 They are suffering more.
00:17:20.560 So even if they technically have it easier, they're the ones who are really hurting most
00:17:26.300 in society and who appear to be failed most by society.
00:17:29.420 And part of that's, I feel like young men aren't really allowed to decide that they've
00:17:35.880 been traumatized by what's happening to them.
00:17:38.340 Whereas societal narratives are such that young women are encouraged to believe that they're
00:17:42.800 traumatized by things.
00:17:43.480 We saw this in, for example, Ayla's research, where she found among the same group of young
00:17:47.840 men and women, the young women somehow believed that they had, you know, more abusive childhoods
00:17:53.200 and their families somehow made less money, even though this is, again, the same sample.
00:17:57.860 So there's this, like, skewed perception of reality among young women.
00:18:01.860 So, yeah, I feel like even though society is more unfair toward men, it hurts young women
00:18:08.180 more.
00:18:09.420 And I think a lot of that comes down to contextualization.
00:18:11.640 Yeah, well, I mean, it is interesting, right?
00:18:15.700 Like, I look at the world today and I'm like, okay, if I was a young man and I was going
00:18:21.640 out there and at least there were sources for me, places I could go, I think, realistically
00:18:27.540 that have online, like, large communities that would set me on the right path.
00:18:34.360 Yeah, well, that's the key thing, though.
00:18:35.880 They aren't necessarily going to support you or give you a big hug or tell you that you're
00:18:39.480 doing the right thing, they're going to set you on the right path.
00:18:41.780 Keep in mind that these support networks that you would go to, though, would often do things
00:18:46.280 that society today would say are cruel or mean because they're not necessarily saying,
00:18:50.580 oh, it's okay.
00:18:51.240 Oh, you can feel whatever you like.
00:18:53.200 Oh, you know, people should come and help you.
00:18:55.280 They might be saying stuff like, oh, yeah, you actually do look like a fat slob.
00:18:59.080 Like, maybe you need to start lifting.
00:19:00.640 Maybe you need to get a job.
00:19:01.760 So they'll say harsh things to you that are considered cruel or even bullying by modern
00:19:06.960 society, whereas women, I think, actually do have what someone would intuitively assume
00:19:11.540 are more supportive societies online.
00:19:13.340 You know, women have all these different support groups and, you know, they'll be like, oh,
00:19:17.060 this is so horrible.
00:19:17.920 You've been mistreated.
00:19:18.880 But ultimately, that's doing them way more harm.
00:19:21.420 So, you know, by saying you had support online, I don't want people to feel misled.
00:19:26.660 You may have found tough love online.
00:19:28.600 Women are finding a lot of support, but it's very toxic.
00:19:31.700 Does that make sense?
00:19:32.320 That's more important, right?
00:19:33.300 If you look at the psychological health of young women, it is obviously and measurably
00:19:38.420 worse than the psychological health of young men.
00:19:41.300 And the more they get sucked into this progressive cultural sphere, the worse their psychological
00:19:46.420 health gets.
00:19:47.700 Yeah.
00:19:47.980 It is really shocking when you look at just how fucked young women are in our current society.
00:19:53.520 Yeah.
00:19:53.800 They are told to indulge in themselves, to burn their soul in a bonfire of their own
00:19:59.680 vanity.
00:20:00.500 And as a result, they feel hollow and worthless.
00:20:05.480 And it is, in the moment, always easier to strike out for whatever small happiness that
00:20:12.320 they think they want in reality.
00:20:14.380 Which ultimately hurts them more, right?
00:20:16.400 It turns to ash in their mouth, you know, King Midas, right?
00:20:19.560 Like, they think they have youth and beauty, and so they try to go for all of the wonderful
00:20:26.120 things they think they have around them.
00:20:28.340 But it turns to ash in their vagina, sorry.
00:20:31.300 It turns to ash in their vagina or mouth.
00:20:35.820 It feels good momentarily, but then causes them suffering.
00:20:40.120 And then they lash out at these things.
00:20:41.820 Because what they don't understand is they think the things that they have been consuming
00:20:46.100 dick.
00:20:48.820 They think that it's the dick that was the problem.
00:20:52.420 That that's what made them unhappy.
00:20:54.780 But no, it was the people who built this structure and society for them, the feminists, who built
00:21:03.400 a system that makes them systemically unhappy.
00:21:06.580 And so you have movements like the MGTOW that have broken from our society and say, OK, we're
00:21:11.560 going to do things their own way.
00:21:12.820 We're going to try something different.
00:21:15.140 And through that, these individuals have come to positions that are psychologically more
00:21:20.140 healthy.
00:21:20.980 But they are also susceptible to the same vices that these young women are susceptible to.
00:21:27.440 You know, these young women are susceptible to believing that their status hierarchy gets
00:21:30.920 determined by how attractive they are.
00:21:32.880 And if you look within the MGTOW community, I think the biggest vice and the number one
00:21:36.780 thing that needs to be shamed within the MGTOW community is individuals showing off fancy
00:21:41.420 cars, showing off wasteful expenditures of wealth.
00:21:46.040 Because through that, they are still showing that they have not broken out of the system.
00:21:52.900 Yeah.
00:21:53.060 And that's really funny.
00:21:54.600 Because now that I think about it, one of the top things that happens to many, I guess,
00:21:58.980 newly converted MGTOW men is they post photos of the really fancy cars and watches they're
00:22:06.140 able to get because they're not spending money on women.
00:22:09.460 What?
00:22:10.080 It's like those things were only a value to you because women thought they were a value.
00:22:15.020 So I guess I'll try to push back and steel man this, even though I largely agree with you.
00:22:19.940 I mean, men also like to signal power to other men.
00:22:23.420 And I think there's a decent amount of competitiveness among men and a desire to show status and have
00:22:28.360 a dominance hierarchy among men.
00:22:30.040 How else are men supposed to show to their male friends if that's all that they care about,
00:22:34.520 that they're a big deal?
00:22:36.180 Well, so I think that this is a really important question.
00:22:38.720 And it can be mirrored in a woman, right?
00:22:40.740 Like a woman's, well, even if I am isolating myself from men, even if I'm saying I'm only
00:22:46.560 going to interact with women going forward, I'm only going to do women things, I'm not going
00:22:49.840 to get married, they might still post a bunch of thirst trap photos, right?
00:22:54.040 Oh, actually, I don't know.
00:22:55.120 When I think about like lesbian or political lesbian communities, I don't think of.
00:22:58.920 I'm saying hypothetically.
00:22:59.980 Okay, sure.
00:23:01.040 Okay, so you saw a woman doing this.
00:23:03.220 You're in these women communities.
00:23:04.580 You'd be like really disgusted by this.
00:23:06.640 You'd be like, don't you see that you're still playing into the old system?
00:23:10.440 What's the point in doing all this?
00:23:12.940 A Rolex itself has no value to you.
00:23:15.440 A fancy car itself has no value to you other than the value that you were told it had was
00:23:20.960 in your social context as a kid.
00:23:22.520 And you can say, well, I think it's cool, but not really.
00:23:26.120 I mean, you think it's cool because, you know, that's the way you contextualize it, right?
00:23:31.780 And this contextualization had a purpose.
00:23:34.820 So you as an adult, you say, how do I show my status among other men?
00:23:39.480 Do something fucking meaningful with your life.
00:23:41.960 Because there are meaningful things you can do with your life other than spend it on vanity
00:23:46.740 items, which you constantly are flapping around other men, like a woman flapping around her
00:23:52.500 breasts with pasties on, you know, it is, no, I mean, it's accurate.
00:23:57.160 And I think it's also really gross.
00:23:59.120 Interestingly, and to me, very similarly, when I see older men do this, right, it reminds me
00:24:05.560 a lot of, of a older woman trying to show off her sexuality, like a Madonna showing off
00:24:11.360 her sexuality.
00:24:11.900 Every time I see some old man was eight fancy cars in his garage and he's married.
00:24:16.220 And I'm like, why aren't you investing in your kids' companies?
00:24:19.940 Why aren't you helping them get off the ground?
00:24:21.960 And if you don't have kids, why aren't you putting money into causes that you care about?
00:24:26.100 The world is literally falling apart and you are sexually signaling to a fucking mirror.
00:24:31.920 It's weird and pathetic.
00:24:36.260 Yeah.
00:24:36.780 I mean, it is interesting that it isn't seen as obscene in society for a man to signal his
00:24:44.660 wealth as it is for a woman to signal her sexual availability.
00:24:48.920 And why I think it's uniquely strange is that we already live in a society that, that demoralizes
00:24:54.540 men for pretty much everything else they do.
00:24:57.100 Why do you think this isn't being demoralized?
00:25:01.920 So there's easy glib answers I could get, right?
00:25:07.140 Like they want men to waste their lives.
00:25:09.660 They don't want money that could go to fixing things to go to fixing things because fixing
00:25:14.540 things removes the people in power from power.
00:25:16.600 I don't think this is why.
00:25:17.920 No.
00:25:18.440 I'm just being clear.
00:25:19.040 I don't think this is.
00:25:19.700 I'll tell you why, because I don't think it interferes because I think that a lot of
00:25:26.020 beliefs are, are, are, are held via cultural evolution.
00:25:30.720 If a belief genuinely challenges an existing cultural group, like if I teach my kids something
00:25:35.940 that prevents them from deconverting and converting into the urban monoculture, well, then the urban
00:25:40.240 monoculture is going to shame that, right?
00:25:41.860 If there's something that keeps my kids in my cultural group, well, then the urban monoculture
00:25:46.100 is going to shame that.
00:25:47.340 If there's something, you know, any, anything like that, right?
00:25:49.660 The urban monoculture is going to shame, but if, if, if, if alternative, um, I am a old
00:25:58.300 failed man who is wasting away his money on indulgences that I am signaling to a fucking
00:26:06.440 void that really doesn't interfere with any of the urban monoculture's plans for the world.
00:26:12.440 You are neutering yourself in these displays.
00:26:16.940 You are neutering the financial impact you could have on anything from elections to nonprofits
00:26:22.420 to advocacy, to starting new companies, and you are doing it for no real benefit to yourself
00:26:30.060 other than to your ego, which, you know, as, as, as we say, the soul burns on the bonfire
00:26:36.460 of vanities, you know, you are destroying yourself with these actions.
00:26:41.440 And a lot of men who have, you know, sunk cost fallacy, I'll say this, like the guy in
00:26:46.020 the just pearly sings interview, and they'll be like, I wasted my money on that or I didn't
00:26:49.500 waste my money on that.
00:26:50.600 I spent my money on that very wisely.
00:26:53.060 How dare you tell me that this was a, a, an indulgence.
00:26:56.880 How dare you tell me that indulgences are always wicked.
00:27:01.140 Um, how dare you, uh, challenge my world framing that made me feel like a good and successful
00:27:07.320 person.
00:27:07.940 Well, and there's also a complication that you're not mentioning here as well, which
00:27:12.400 is this man's career was built on selling a product that does exactly this type of social
00:27:19.360 signaling.
00:27:19.800 And he, he banks on, on selling that social signaling value to young men.
00:27:26.660 So he really can't, he, he wouldn't be allowed to agree with you unless he wanted to undermine
00:27:33.380 his ability.
00:27:33.860 No, I'm just talking generally about guys, not about this guy specifically.
00:27:36.640 Okay.
00:27:37.760 But I'd say if you're a young guy, when you're young, you know, you can signal to your male
00:27:42.920 friends by who you're dating or something like that.
00:27:45.500 Um, fine, right?
00:27:48.200 Like I think it's indulgent and wasteful, but do it if you want to.
00:27:51.300 Right.
00:27:52.080 But as you get older, expect to change what you're using to signal to other people.
00:27:56.900 Right.
00:27:58.120 The, the amount that you are glorifying your wife, the, the, the way that you treat her,
00:28:03.540 the way that you treat your kids, those are the true signs of status.
00:28:07.540 Once you are in a long-term monogamous relationship and, and don't forget it.
00:28:12.400 We're, we're normalizing that here now.
00:28:14.420 Right.
00:28:15.820 Don't fuck with that.
00:28:16.940 Right.
00:28:17.980 You, you rise in status to me as a male.
00:28:21.680 Like when I'm looking through Facebook and I'm like, is this, does this person have a
00:28:24.740 better life to me?
00:28:25.380 I see a bunch of fancy cars and shit.
00:28:26.860 I'm like, wow, their life fucking sucks.
00:28:29.500 I see them with kids playing in the stream.
00:28:32.000 I'm like, shit, you know, I know I post those photos, but I don't, I don't do that enough
00:28:35.400 with my kids.
00:28:35.900 I got to do that more.
00:28:37.240 You know, I see them going to fall fast.
00:28:40.240 I see them helping their family with chores.
00:28:43.280 Those are the moments that I wish I spent more time on.
00:28:47.620 So, yeah.
00:28:49.560 Yeah.
00:28:52.960 I'm trying to think of any other counter argument that someone might have to this.
00:28:57.520 I mean, if someone just says they really, really like collecting cars and, you know,
00:29:03.800 you know, a lot of smart people who I think have collected really good sports cars who
00:29:10.320 I don't think are driven by sexual signaling.
00:29:13.340 Like what if you just autistically like cars?
00:29:15.340 Do you think that there, there's a decent number of men who just like, well, that's an
00:29:19.460 addiction.
00:29:20.460 Okay.
00:29:20.860 So it's just, you know, I, I, I do things that are driven partially by addiction as
00:29:24.920 well.
00:29:25.140 Right.
00:29:25.880 But I do not pretend that they are a status symbol.
00:29:30.460 It is pathetic men who treat how much they can drink or how much they do drink as if it's
00:29:36.080 a status symbol among other men.
00:29:37.760 Yeah.
00:29:37.900 You know what?
00:29:38.240 Actually the, the friend of yours that I'm thinking who, who we know who's bought the most
00:29:41.840 luxury cars, like no one knew he had them.
00:29:44.580 So that makes a lot of sense.
00:29:47.200 It is something you should be ashamed of your magic, the gathering.
00:29:50.660 I don't think he was ashamed of it because he would like sell them and make money.
00:29:53.460 So he was actually.
00:29:54.260 No, no, no.
00:29:54.580 Yeah.
00:29:54.800 If you're reselling them.
00:29:55.860 Okay.
00:29:56.060 I agree with that.
00:29:56.800 If you are using them, but that's different.
00:29:58.820 That's.
00:29:59.040 Yeah.
00:29:59.820 Well, I mean, no, I mean, it was for him was a combination of a hobby to an investment
00:30:02.940 because he would ultimately make money, but then he got to drive around luxury cars and,
00:30:06.300 but no one knew he was driving them.
00:30:07.520 So it was a very strange thing, but yeah.
00:30:09.300 Okay.
00:30:09.840 Yeah.
00:30:10.060 So I guess, and I think the same could be said of women, like a lot of women just.
00:30:12.920 Oh, you know what?
00:30:14.380 I think this is the case with, I think about all the women in very conservative Islamic
00:30:19.280 nations, like wearing, you know, a ton of, of covering, but then at home they're like
00:30:25.840 dripping in Gucci.
00:30:26.800 Like they're just, they have a ton of couture under that isn't necessarily super modest.
00:30:32.840 So like they go, they go home, all the outerwear comes off and they're wearing this stuff.
00:30:37.680 Maybe that's, you know.
00:30:38.440 That doesn't happen.
00:30:40.000 That doesn't happen.
00:30:40.860 I'm sorry.
00:30:41.100 I've seen they, that doesn't happen.
00:30:42.680 The women in, in Islamic countries who signal wealth through clothing, they do it through
00:30:49.260 like diamond encrusted hub jobs and stuff like that.
00:30:52.820 Yeah.
00:30:53.200 They don't do it at home.
00:30:54.920 No.
00:30:55.400 And I know enough Islamic families where I have seen women at home and at home.
00:30:59.520 I have never seen a woman who looks wealthier when she's not in full outfit than she does
00:31:06.280 when she's in full outfit.
00:31:08.800 Happened in sex in the city.
00:31:10.240 Probably not my most accurate source of cultural.
00:31:12.940 Yeah.
00:31:13.100 That is not accurate.
00:31:14.100 No, no, no.
00:31:14.480 There are a lot of women in these countries who will signal stuff with like diamond crusted.
00:31:18.860 They actually have to do with like phone coverings and stuff like that, but they, they, they
00:31:22.560 never look more expensive under their outfits than they do outside of their outfits from
00:31:27.640 what I've seen or what I've heard.
00:31:29.180 So that is a sex in the city lie.
00:31:31.040 Yeah.
00:31:31.520 Well, that's too bad.
00:31:33.620 Okay.
00:31:34.060 I'm beginning to doubt myself here.
00:31:36.020 So I might be wrong on this.
00:31:37.700 If fans have experienced something different, let me know.
00:31:39.960 Just, I'm not doubting my experience, but you know, the number of Muslim women who wear
00:31:45.260 really conservative clothing that I have seen in or heard about in less than extremely formal
00:31:51.640 environments is obviously going to be small because I am a male.
00:31:55.140 So there are likely listeners to this podcast who would have had more experience with this
00:31:59.760 than I have.
00:32:00.400 A little anecdote here I wanted to share with people that to me really helped me recognize
00:32:04.220 that some Muslim cultural groups are extremely similar to cultural groups near the areas I
00:32:10.760 grew up in, in Texas is I was hanging out with one of my Emirati friends in, I think it was
00:32:17.300 around Abu Dhabi at the time.
00:32:19.340 And he was getting dressed.
00:32:21.000 He always wore really formal, conservative, you know, religious outfits from my perspective,
00:32:27.560 but apparently not from his mom's perspective.
00:32:30.400 Because he didn't, I don't know, he hadn't tied something correctly or something like
00:32:34.360 that.
00:32:34.840 And we were about to leave the house and his mom was like, don't you dare leave the house
00:32:39.900 without your something, something.
00:32:41.800 You look like a fucking Egyptian when you do that.
00:32:44.840 And I just thought it was so funny because it's just, it's the type of off color insult
00:32:51.440 I would be so likely to hear in Texas.
00:32:55.420 All right.
00:32:55.880 Love you, Simone.
00:32:56.700 I love you too, Malcolm.
00:32:57.660 She's a