Why do Catholics make up the majority of Catholics in the United States? Is it because they tend to be more violent than other immigrant groups, like the Irish, Italian, and Mexican-American Mafia? Or is it because Catholics are particularly good at murder? To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.fm/sponsors
00:04:00.860In our Inc., they're like incorporated. They have to, you know, they're paying taxes. They're going to, you know, charge me extra for that.
00:04:05.760You know, their accounting system, you know, their, their annual filings.
00:04:25.180Or Mexicans. I just, I watched this really depressing YouTube video on contract killings in Mexico and was like shocked at the price of human life.
00:04:33.480They got to get their act together. I don't know, man.
00:04:35.860You're saying we should move to Mexico? I'm not saying we should move to Mexico. I'm just saying if someone put a gun to my head and said I needed to hire a contract killer and get something done quickly, I'd probably go to a Mexican.
00:04:47.960So the question comes from all this, and I really tried to play with AI to see if AI could think of anything.
00:04:53.760Why is it, and I have a number of hypothesis around why this may be, why is it that predominantly, not just the predominant criminal organizations in the United States were Catholics, but every large scale Catholic immigrant wave into the United States created a large scale criminal organization.
00:05:12.200That those three waves were the only large scale Catholic immigrant waves into the United States, the Irish, the Italians, then the Hispanics.
00:05:20.760Those are the only ones, you know, so every time they came, they also set this up.
00:05:25.480This isn't to say that there wasn't a German Catholic wave, and I think there was a French Catholic wave, but they, and there was a Canadian Catholic immigrant wave, but all of these were fairly small.
00:05:35.540Also, they don't really matter in terms of studying this phenomenon.
00:05:39.520So what are your thoughts before I go into this, if you're going to make any guesses?
00:05:42.740I'm just guessing that exposure to a large functional bureaucracy and organization that included management of people and, and all of that may have been the equivalent to giving someone an MBA in entrepreneurship, or at least like organization creation in a way that other religious experiences simply didn't.
00:06:07.980And people didn't go to college, and people didn't go to college really on, on mass at all until very recently.
00:06:12.280So you were able to do what you were exposed to, and the vast majority of people were not exposed to scenarios in which non-immediately related people did business together, except for in the Catholic church.
00:06:26.280Because even Protestant churches, it was like, okay, well, this is your, your preacher and their, you know.
00:06:31.420Well, keep in mind that most of the Catholic crime networks were family based.
00:06:35.020They were, they were, but they still organized in a much more hierarchical and functional fashion.
00:06:40.500So I, I think that that is a huge part of it.
00:06:50.660So if you look at like the backwoods people who were descended from, which we talk about in various episodes, they were significantly more violent than any of the Catholic immigrant ways.
00:07:00.520Because they were much quicker to jump to murdering their neighbors.
00:07:04.560They were much quicker to, as we've pointed out, a common thing was in their culture was to have sharpened nails.
00:07:09.600It was easier to pull out people's eyeballs.
00:07:40.900Well, so what we see here, I think, is that this other group, which was also not too dissimilar from the Western Americans or Western style Americans that settled like the Midwest and the, sorry, the far West of the United States.
00:07:56.420These groups were much, were existed in much tighter clans than the Catholic groups did.
00:08:03.180Their, their family clan based structure didn't go that far outside of immediate family.
00:08:08.520So there was no motivation to set up these larger scale criminal networks or no ability to set up these larger scale criminal networks that Catholics had because of their familiarity with large scale hierarchies and inter-familial hierarchies.
00:08:25.980It was just their organizational ability, but it was their, their, the other issue you had is that when you had violent people with, with violent or rambunctious tendencies, it was in the Americas.
00:08:38.420What you often had them do is go to the, the far West or go to the frontier territory.
00:08:46.340They didn't, they didn't prefer to settle in already settled urban areas.
00:08:50.860They didn't prefer to settle in large cities, but Catholics actually overwhelmingly preferred settling in large cities.
00:08:57.860Very unlike many immigrant groups throughout American history.
00:09:02.080If you look at every one of the Catholic immigrant waves, they settled in major urban environments, the Irish, the Italians, and the Hispanics.
00:09:30.580I think that Catholic culture more broadly is more amenable to urban life than Protestant culture.
00:09:39.200Specifically, if you look at the core difference between Catholic and Protestant culture, it is how do you determine what is true?
00:09:45.940And Catholics would say, well, what is true is a person should spend their entire life studying that thing and then be certified by a central authority.
00:09:53.120So we know who has actually spent their life studying that thing.
00:09:55.440And then the Protestants will say, well, what if the central authority becomes corrupted?
00:10:00.380And this is, as we pointed out, the core conflict we had in the United States over COVID.
00:10:10.720And the more rural Americans, mostly coming from Protestant groups, said, no, the central bureaucracy could become corrupted.
00:10:16.200It's better to make these decisions on your own.
00:10:18.120Well, this leads to a much more individualistic framing and not wanting the law or the government in your business with the communities that had the more Protestant framings.
00:10:30.680And so they were much more quick to abandon cities for the frontier.
00:10:35.780And it is also why Catholics concentrated in cities.
00:10:39.140It also made Catholics have more trust for bureaucratic institutions and organizations.
00:10:45.300You see this in Catholics when they left violent crime.
00:10:50.900One of the classic Catholic jobs in the United States was being a cop.
00:10:54.740You know, the stereotype of the Irish cop comes from this.
00:11:27.920I think I've got a little more work to do.
00:11:29.600And not just that, but you also have, even today, Catholics disproportionately in the legal profession and hugely disproportionately on the Supreme Court.
00:11:40.040As we pointed out, one of the recent Supreme Courts, it was like eight out of nine of them were Catholics or something like that.
00:11:46.200Just an insane number when you consider what a small population is.
00:11:48.880Yeah, like the rest are Jewish, which also makes sense.
00:12:15.420Is while Catholics distrusted, or had a unique trust of bureaucracies, they also had a unique distrust, especially early immigrant waves, of government bureaucracies.
00:12:30.080And it's many majority Catholic countries that produce major U.S. Catholic crime groups had histories of weak or corrupt governance, fostering distrust of legal institutions.
00:12:39.660In southern Italy, particularly Sicily, centuries of foreign rules, Spanish bourbon, and absent state protection led to the rise of the Sicilian mafia as a parallel power structure.
00:12:49.880This cultural skepticism of authority carried over to the United States, where Italian immigrants viewed police and government as extensions of an oppressive system, making organized crime a viable alternative for resolving disputes and gaining power.
00:13:01.760So, it's like honor-based crime, honor-based justice.
00:13:13.400But I don't need Catholics to be oppressed to know that Catholics create terrible governments.
00:13:17.060If you look around the world today, this is why I'm so confused by people like Nick Fuentes, who want to turn the U.S. into a Catholic.
00:13:22.680Like, he wants to create, he's a Catholic integralist, which means he thinks the entire world should be ruled under a Catholic, this sort of hell of fate.
00:13:29.880But I'm like, even if you are a Catholic, like, if you're a sane person, you must be able to see how much worse Catholic-majority countries are to live in than countries that are ruled by Protestants.
00:13:42.020If you look at Europe, if you look at Latin America, if you look at, like, wherever you go, when Catholics are in charge, the country typically is very, very poor, very, very corrupt, very, very bureaucratic.
00:13:55.720The politicians are almost always super distrustworthy and grifty.
00:13:59.420This is just a trend throughout Catholic countries.
00:14:01.860And so now the question could be, like, okay, so I can understand why they distrust bureaucracy when they come into the United States, or government bureaucracy, but why do Catholic countries have a tendency to be very, very corrupt and poor?
00:14:17.260Do you have thoughts on that before I go into my theories?
00:14:19.660I mean, maybe, like, having large families produces less focus on outward economic production that would support, like, tax revenue in a city, and more just there's focus on family, which means that the area itself doesn't appear to be so wealthy.
00:14:59.540And Catholic culture produces this much more than other cultures.
00:15:03.480In Latin America, for example, I would be considered a less moral person for not hiring my incompetent brother into, like, a government position if I was a leading figure within the government, within my family's own moral framing.
00:15:21.220Yeah, you're supposed to be there for your sibling, right?
00:15:24.580Right. Instead, yeah. Whereas, like, in our upbringing, that would be seen as, I mean, even your family is like, you know, what, you don't have a job right now? Well, don't come home.
00:15:35.160Yeah. Yeah, they're like the complete opposite of that. That's so interesting.
00:15:38.580And so the question can be, like, well, okay, then why is Catholicism like this, right? Like, this is a very weird thing, considering it's not, like, a key part of the faith, and Catholic cultures are hugely divergent, you know, whether you're talking about Irish or Italian or American.
00:15:54.400They're very different, yeah, culturally.
00:15:56.900Yeah, but why do all of those three cultures feature a degree of amoral familialism?
00:16:01.640I mean, but don't you think just in general, I mean, maybe this isn't true, because, I mean, Puritans also had large families, and you didn't see this necessarily in Puritan culture.
00:16:11.660But they also believed in the inherent wretchedness of humans. So, okay, here's what I'm going to say. It's one, the large family. And I think any large family is going to, to a certain extent, be a little bit incestuous. Look at Elon Musk. He works so much with his family and his brother, right? Like, they work together a lot. The Kardashians work together.
00:16:27.520Like, so, I think in general, he's more like a traditional clan-based culture.
00:16:31.940They work together. But what's different about Catholicism is, like, for example, Calvinism is, like, well, people are wretched. Like, you sort of don't give people the benefit of the doubt. Whereas Catholicism is all about penance and forgiveness.
00:16:46.920And so, even if someone is a failed son, like, it's still kind of your obligation to keep him in the fold and to give him opportunities, because we must give him the opportunity to show penance and to right the wrongs. What do you think?
00:17:04.980I disagree with that. I do not believe that that's what causes it. I think what leads to it is actually a cultural evolutionary pressure created by the way the Catholic Church operates.
00:17:18.220I think that if you look historically, if you go to, like, older Catholic regions, they were basically ruled by the Church.
00:17:24.700And the Church had a very good system to prevent a moral familialism, which was not allowing people in leadership positions to have families or children.
00:17:35.180You had the Church celibacy, right? This is a core part of Catholicism.
00:17:38.640I would argue that this celibacy of Church members meant that Catholicism didn't need to evolve the same cultural disdain for nepotism that other cultures needed to evolve.
00:17:51.640So, as Catholic countries secularized, they didn't have the pre-evolved disgust.
00:17:57.500Okay, because they protect, it already has an inbuilt protection for nepotism, meaning that an intrinsic distaste for nepotism wasn't evolutionarily selected for.
00:18:10.020In the same way that it was in Protestant cultures, where their societal framework didn't have inbuilt protections against nepotism.
00:18:18.020Yes, I think that the higher degrees of nepotism came down from not having protection against nepotism.
00:18:25.120But if you want to read more on a lot of these theories, we talk about them in the Pragmatist Guide to Crafting Religion, where we go deeper on this particular topic.
00:18:30.460But I just find this topic to be particularly fascinating.
00:18:33.100So I think that that is part of what led to this.
00:18:36.900I also think that there is less, and this is somewhat to your perspective here, there is less moral accountability in systems that are overly deontological, like Catholic systems can be.
00:18:53.900Right, because consequential systems are like, you failed, you're out.
00:18:56.800Whereas deontological, it's like, well, you know, you meant well.
00:19:00.380You tried, you did all the right things.
00:19:01.960You did something that led to the suffering of others, like installing an incompetent family member.
00:19:07.580You are responsible for the downstream consequences of this.
00:19:10.600Whereas the majority of Catholic cultures would say what matters is if your actions had righteous intent, not the consequences of your actions.
00:19:21.080And it is very easy to frame helping your idiot family member as righteous intent, instead of the downstream consequences of that.
00:19:33.000And it's also true that this can be used to justify criminality within immigrant populations that feel discriminated against.
00:19:41.640They're like, well, I'm just trying to help my community, which you often saw groups like the mafia and the mob and, well, some Latin American gangs doing.
00:19:50.200They are not as dedicated to it as the mafia and the mob were, which historically really tried to give back to their community and build, you know, charities and stuff like this.
00:20:01.180So I think that that's part of it as well, is that it's easier to create moral explanations for immoral acts within this framework and still maintain a high degree of status.
00:20:12.760That was an interesting thing about the Protestant cultures that were more rough and tumble as well, which is if you resulted to criminality within these cultures, you would often lose your status.
00:20:26.560It was the low status individuals who were into crime, even if you go like the Old West or something like that.
00:20:32.460Whereas, you know, as we see in any movie about like the mafia or the mob or something like that, these individuals were highly respected in their communities, incredibly respected in the way that like Old West bandits just weren't.
00:20:47.500Like Old West bandits may have been romanticized, but they were not.
00:21:36.320And they're here saying contemporary sources like the National Police Gazette and dime novels, The James Boys in Mississippi, 1881, show a blend of condemnation and fascination.
00:21:46.700So, yeah, they appear to have been romanticized even within the time.
00:21:49.580Were they the school shooters of the past?
00:21:52.320So, this romanticization, I would argue they are much more.
00:21:57.160You do not have, about school shooters, comic books being made.
00:22:06.660This wasn't an underground romanticization.
00:22:09.000But the point I'm making is there's a big difference between romanticization and acceptance within a sort of an elite class within society, whereas the mob and mafia bosses were seen as more cultural equivalents to the head of a bank or something like that.
00:22:26.520It's not an anti-cultural institution, which is really fascinating to me.
00:22:39.580Well, another thing that we find is familial and communal structures.
00:22:44.700So, I'm just going to go a bit deeper into this.
00:22:48.660Cultures in Catholic-majority countries emphasize strong familial and community ties, which can be exploited for criminal organization.
00:22:55.260The Italian-American mafia, for example, readied on blood ties and loyalty-based hierarchies modeled on Sicilian traditions.
00:23:03.400Irish gangs often operated as extended, quote-unquote, clans with deep community roots.
00:23:08.900MS-13 was less hierarchical and draws a sense of brotherhood and shared Salvadorian identity, particularly among war-displaced youths.
00:23:16.080These cultural traits, loyalty, hierarchy, and collective identity, facilitate the organization of cohesion for large-scaled criminal enterprises.
00:23:23.140In contrast, other Catholic groups that didn't form organizations, like Polish immigrants, often integrated into the broader labor movements, e.g. unions, rather than forming criminal networks.
00:23:33.920Now, I think when you read that, then my question is, then why don't Mormons create criminal organizations?
00:23:39.460I was thinking that at the beginning of the episode.
00:23:41.580Like, if we're talking about, you know, very good organized groups that get stuff done, it's all about the Mormons.
00:24:11.240Because they had busted up a printing press, like, that was saying bad things about them.
00:24:16.000Okay, but that's more like, you're slandering us, we're going to vandalize your printing press company, not like, nice printing press company, shame if something happened to it, and then, like, demanding protection money.
00:24:26.400It was less shrewd, but it was certainly a criminal act determined to control and terrorize a local population.
00:24:34.920You know, so, with Mormons, they kept being kicked out of communities because what they basically, and keep in mind, from the perspective of these communities, Joseph Smith was just a guy running a scam, right?
00:24:46.040Like, his whole thing would have been seen as close to, you know, a snake oil salesman or, you know, reading out of a hat with, like, gold tablets and stuff like that.
00:24:55.380That sounds like a con artist, especially if he's occasionally pulling money from local community members, busting up presses that say bad things about him.
00:25:04.780And then, if you look at the Mormon territories, they had incidents of even just, like, murdering people who went through their territories because they weren't sure if they were, they had, you know, armed conflicts with the United States government.
00:25:17.220Yeah, we're talking massacres, even of, you know, people.
00:25:21.220Yeah, no, no, they did a lot of really bad stuff, and what, the reason I mention all of this is Mormonism doesn't subdivide into hierarchies as effectively as Catholicism subdivides into hierarchies, where the church would have to decide to do something criminal itself for Mormonism to do something criminal.
00:25:43.620Was the only subdivided hierarchies in early work was the giant MLM scams that are run throughout the church, and very commonly run, if you keep in mind, but they just don't break with the church's central teachings, so they're okay to do.
00:25:58.560Whereas, you know, the Catholic church, even within these time periods, would have been telling the mob and the mafia when they went to confessions, you know, you should really stop doing this.
00:26:07.540And the mob and the mafia guys would be like, yeah, but I can just confess, right?
00:26:11.360And they're like, well, I mean, technically, but the church doesn't want you doing this.
00:26:15.900And they'd be like, well, I'm helping the community, you know, the society at large doesn't care about us.
00:26:19.940And I would assume that some, you know, given that we know, you know, the Jesuits who promoted things like communist revolutions and stuff like this, I wouldn't be surprised if some were condoned by local parishes.
00:26:31.580So I had this moment of, you know, I should probably look into this a bit more, and it is so much worse than I thought.
00:26:37.720So the Vatican Bank has been linked to mafia activities through allegations of money laundering.
00:26:43.020A prominent case involves Robert Calvi, known as God's Banker, who was closely tied to the Vatican Bank, found dead under Blackfire's Bridge in London in 1982.
00:26:53.440Investigations suggest that the Sicilian mafia, particularly the Cologne clan, used Vatican Bank to launder money.
00:27:00.060Journalist Mariah Antoni Calabra's book, La Mina de Mafia, details how Calvary's activities connected the mafia into Vatican financiers.
00:27:09.720Then you have Michelle Sonata, another financier with Vatican Bank ties, was implicated in selling over one billion in counterfeit securities to the Gambino crime syndicate in New York.
00:27:21.940Posts on X claim that Sonata acted as a go-between for the Vatican Bank and the mafia, though there is not conclusive without further evidence.
00:27:29.460Then you have Archbishop Paul Marconis, president of the Vatican Bank from 1971 to 1989, who was accused of facilitating financial dealings with mafia-linked figures.
00:27:41.700Then the mafia using Catholic rituals to bolster its legitimacy, often with the support from local clergy.
00:27:50.200For instance, the mafia members have been documented leading processions with statues of the Virgin Mary or financing religious events to project an image of piety and community leadership.
00:28:01.220In southern Italy, particularly Sicily and Calabria, these practices were common until recent church reforms.
00:28:07.200Even if the central Catholic authority would have said, no, don't do this.
00:28:11.620You're not going to get that as much as in Mormonism.
00:28:14.020You're going to get much more pushback and much more, hey, don't do this.
00:28:17.640It also wouldn't have made sense to other U.S. cultural groups.
00:28:23.860Again, think about something like the backwards cultural group, right?
00:28:30.420The idea that one family would achieve so much status that they were now policing a bunch of other families, that family would suddenly have a target on their back by everyone else in the community because they think they're better than everyone else.
00:28:44.900Whereas within Catholic culture, you wouldn't necessarily reflexively everybody lets turn on whoever is the strongest right now.
00:28:52.180You would see that reflexively was in backwards culture.
00:28:57.000So I think that that's another thing that allowed these networks to build up.
00:29:07.080And also something to keep in mind is a lot of these groups had existing organizations like them in the countries that they came from.
00:29:15.420So they're just replicating a business model that they were very familiar with to begin with.
00:29:20.900But it was made necessary by the incompetence of Catholic governments.
00:29:25.540If you have a particularly corrupt and incompetent government, you're going to be much more likely to try to build a shadow or counter government.
00:29:33.240Particularly in the cases of the Sicilians and the Irish, it wasn't even their own government that needed to be incompetent because they were ruled by other people who had conquered them.
00:29:42.500One thing I'm also thinking about is the, it was Arctotherium, right?
00:29:49.520Who wrote about non-linear ethnic niches and we did an episode on them.
00:29:53.480That a really common theme was that this is dirty work that no one else wants to do.
00:29:58.900Which criminal activity, that, that, that doesn't, that's about right.
00:30:02.180Like no one, no one else wants to do it.
00:30:04.320Plus you have, you have the ability to exploit cheap or non-paid labor much more easily, which I could also see like Catholic networks and families.
00:30:12.420And because so much of this was family-based, there probably was a lot of unpaid labor.
00:30:16.240So then you end up creating these moats based on even just those two factors.
00:31:22.780Well, I would say that something to keep in mind is I'm not anti-nepotism.
00:31:27.240Nepotism to me actually makes a lot of sense.
00:31:29.340Well, that was another thing that came up in the discussion of non-linear ethnic networks was that the nepotism that took place within them, that is to say that, you know, like the, the, the Thai people would only hire Thai people.
00:31:39.720And, you know, the, the, the nail salon training center started to only train in Thai, like classes, not in English.
00:31:45.960But like, the point is, you know, that they're culturally aligned, like it's a smart move.
00:31:58.940I mean, the vetting is pre-done and you have, you have more trust in the vetting, but also there's more of, there's, there's a higher cost to, to disappointing the person who hires you because your cousin's reputation is on the line.
00:32:12.140Your family's reputation is on the line.
00:32:14.020Like you're not just disappointing a stranger.
00:32:15.840Your entire family is going to dunk on you forever.
00:32:29.500I got the chance to talk this through with you.
00:32:31.540I thought this would be a spicy topic.
00:32:33.000One of the things that always gets me about this particular topic is why like people would aspire to Catholic majority countries when they live in such poverty and do such a bad job governing.
00:32:46.420Well, but you know, this is something Dan has wanted to come on the podcast and talk about eventually is, is, you know, maybe something different than a GDP, you know, that that's focused more on like how many kids are people having?
00:32:57.780Or are they, they have fewer kids to Latin America.
00:33:01.360Now they are now Catholics are, but historically, when you're talking about like in general, this impoverishment, I mean, they, maybe I agree with what you're saying.
00:33:09.820Like, like Southern Europe has way fewer, way lower fertility rate than Northern Europe.
00:33:13.560Like Latin America has a way lower fertility rate now than, than America, especially when you control for income.
00:33:20.020And, and the question is, is I really, it's like half of the countries in Latin America are below America now.
00:33:24.020And the rates dropping like way faster when you control for income.
00:33:26.320And the question is, is with all of this, what, what I just don't understand.
00:33:31.220And, and what I'm pointing out here is how like a human living today can look at the consequences of being a Catholic majority country and want to attempt to replicate that.
00:33:43.000Which I actually think is one of the reasons why this criminality comes out as well is that when morality is community enforced, it's easy to create alternate forms of morality instead of when morality is self-enforced.
00:33:57.060And was in Catholic communities, morality is more community enforced than individually self-reinforced.
00:34:03.160Well, I think in any system, when rules or norms are exogenous, that is to say imposed from the outside, rather than endogenous, you get lower fidelity and adherence, like just in general.
00:34:17.920Just how, when, you know, you're paid to do a hobby that you used to like, you don't like it as much.
00:34:22.140Like it just, it's not ideal in my view for anything to be exogenous when you can help it.
00:34:39.500Like and subscribe and all that, but why the, the drive to, you know, convert people into a religious framework or attempt to create a country under a religious framework.
00:34:49.840That in every single modern context has led to poverty and unhappiness in the populations where it is dominant.
00:34:58.540Like I, I don't get in, in low fertility rates as well.
00:35:04.640One thing I have heard from some Catholics, so this, this could be an explanation here is it's like the church was infiltrated by a malevolent group that wanted to tear down the Catholic tradition from the inside.
00:35:17.680But if that's the case, like the core of the Catholic church is the papacy.
00:35:22.180And if the papacy has been used to destroy the Catholic church, it's sort of self-invalidating.
00:35:26.900I guess what they would say is, well, we're trying to create a new form of Catholicism.
00:35:31.220I mean, I think the, the, the Catholic, the Catholics that are watching this podcast that we talk to at least, their communities do not at all resemble other Catholic communities that I'm familiar with in the past.
00:35:54.520So I think that over time, the Catholic church is going to shift or you'll have splinter factions.
00:36:02.080I don't know, but I'm totally in favor of at least the Catholics that we know who trying to create something.
00:36:08.900Well, and I think everybody needs to create something new.
00:36:10.900So that's not something unique to Catholicism, you know, what survives, you know, Protestantism, what if it's, what if it's techno-Puritanism, right?
00:36:17.000You know, what survives of Mormonism is likely going to need to be something different than what Mormonism looks like today.
00:36:21.720So, so that's not a bad thing that there is this internal drive for the recreation of a Catholic identity around what I'd even call is, is because the way that Catholics approach this is really interesting to me.
00:36:37.020Like, while we're neo-traditionalists, i.e. we take some traditional ideas and we re-spin them, what Catholics will often do is create new traditions while assigning a false antiquity to them to create things that...
00:37:11.080Note here, the reason why I had forgotten that Mormons do this all the time is because when Mormons do it, it's so laughably bad that in my head I assume that, like, nobody actually believes it, whereas when Catholics do this, it's pretty convincing.
00:37:28.680And so, you know, there's that moment in the...
00:37:30.680Where I'm like, oh, this tradition has a lot of antiquity, then I look into it, and I'm like, oh, no, we just made this up, like, 20 years ago or, like, 100 years ago.
00:38:21.040This is not normal YouTube video comments, at least for the videos that I watch that aren't our...
00:38:28.220Well, maybe it's just the ones of ours that haven't gone viral that you're getting all the nice comments on, and on the viral videos you're getting standard YouTubers.
00:38:35.620Yeah, yeah, there is a little bit of that going on, yes.