00:03:27.280Today's Vatican decree also goes a step further, warning the priests and lay members of SSPX
00:03:32.940that, quote, from now on, end quote, they too will be in schism and automatically excommunicated
00:03:39.800if they, quote, adhere, end quote, to the schism.
00:03:43.060What it here means is largely clarified in the 1996 explanatory note of the Pontificate Council of Legislative Texts on the, quote, excommunication for schism incurred by the members of the movement of Bishop Marcel Lebov, which was referred to in an explanatory note attached to today's decree.
00:04:02.900I love it how something so truly evil to people who have dedicated their entire life to a religion can be done in such a bureaucratic fashion.
00:04:09.980but anyway back to this the 1996 note explains that if labiv deacons and priests freely carry
00:04:15.840out their ministry was in the schismatic movement e.g was in sspx in disobedience of the pope then
00:04:22.940that is a formal adherence to schism the question of the laity's adherence to schism depends on the
00:04:27.820person's intention and whether he or she adopts sspx attitude towards doctrine this is really
00:04:34.880like really evil stuff man and you're gonna say well they ignored the pope's orders the pope's0.84
00:04:40.680orders were patently ridiculous the the people who had spent their entire lives and were highly0.89
00:04:46.060dedicated to the church and he didn't like them because of their views on ecumenicalism and the0.97
00:04:52.080latin math like that's what he was mad at them for that's why he said they couldn't become bishops
00:04:56.440but they went ahead and became bishops anyway that that's what this was over it's completely
00:05:00.840unreasonable i so brief aside here we'll be going over some other churches because it's not just
00:05:07.360catholics that have a schism problem right now but like these people have actively not wanted
00:05:12.840to schism they've been holding their nose they've been taking the sacrifice 1970 malcolm they've been
00:05:18.500holding on tight they're really trying like we don't want this to become a schism yeah and my
00:05:24.280like the catholic fans of the show and stuff that we have that say this and they're like we can just
00:05:28.480wait this out yeah i have said in response to that i think you may not understand how captured
00:05:34.400the vatican is and how aggressively they will attempt to resist this yeah and what it is to
00:05:42.080excommunicate somebody who has dedicated their entire life to your religion right well and
00:05:49.200they're like extra in to the catholic history and lore into actual doctrine i mean i know
00:05:54.880that the vatican doesn't see it this way and you can go back to your book that you wrote on
00:05:58.960governance where you're like look if some like if like the like mousy nerdy girl in the teen girl
00:06:08.300clique decides that she's not going to wear pink on thursday but the mean alpha girl says that
00:06:15.360everyone's going to wear pink on thursday and then mousy girl comes up wearing purple on thursday1.00
00:06:21.200look that is a direct challenge to alpha girl's authority an alpha girl either can1.00
00:06:28.000undermine her authority in front of the rest of the girls thereby possibly losing queen bee status1.00
00:06:33.680or she can kick mousy girl who actually cares about all the stuff they care about out of the0.98
00:06:41.520group because she's a challenge i mean like this is it's an obvious like this this was bound to
00:06:46.740happen it's kind of a shock that well i mean i think that people what wasn't fully understood
00:06:52.780is this idea that if we have and it's happening more and more in terms of the catholic lay body
00:07:01.460is becoming more conservative yeah that this the catholic churches that hold latin mass
00:07:06.640are getting way more parishioners than the ones that don't right like that's what the people want
00:07:11.760And there is this mindset that, well, if we can just outbreed them for long enough, eventually we'll be able to recapture the institutions.
00:07:20.180But the problem is the Catholic institutions are not controlled via popular vote.
00:07:24.540They are controlled via vote of people who are allowed to vote and appointed to vote by people who currently control the administration.
00:07:32.500so the the the length that they can hold on is probably about five generations longer than i
00:07:40.320think most people suspect and when they then point and they go oh look all of the young people who
00:07:47.520are being ordained and stuff like that to these lower level positions that don't have voting rights
00:07:51.440in the larger catholic church these people are all conservative that's a good sign but as i mean
00:07:58.300when you when you think about like how progressive the people in the center of the church are like
00:08:02.160we need infinite immigration right like we need to we're all worshiping the same god you know we're0.98
00:08:08.500all you know the the buddhists are great and very insightful oh you want to know it's worse1.00
00:08:13.220actually so this is this is it kind of blew my mind the the ccp basically chooses bishops and0.98
00:08:20.780rome just okays them and this has been happening since 2018 where there was this secret vatican
00:08:26.820china agreement that gives the ccp this decisive role so they're just like okay ccp and they've0.94
00:08:35.020also just continuously pushed back on sspx which is just trying to genuinely be true to the church0.86
00:08:41.420and it's not just on or to excommunication like what was that what was the grave sin what was
00:08:47.220they consecrated new bishops that were not approved by the pope did the bishops have to
00:08:54.760be approved by the pope yeah yes at least in this case apparently that really but we'll get into
00:08:59.860that now i'm gonna i'll finish the press release we'll keep going anyway the society known as known
00:09:04.620by its acronym sspx celebrates the ancient latin mass and opposes the modernizing reforms of the
00:09:09.880catholic church which it considers to be rife with heresies and errors which it is while a fringe
00:09:15.640movement on the catholic right the sspx has become a thorn in the vatican side for five decades
00:09:22.300because it claims to be even more Catholic than the Holy See
00:22:23.920all right i'm seeing this especially applied to their group because this does change things
00:22:29.680this means that this is a escalation and continuation yeah instead of some note break
00:22:35.680this only applies to spx nobody else needs this to to consecrate new bishop oh my gosh so they're
00:22:47.440like in the doghouse no no but this really matters because the consecration of bishops
00:22:52.460bishops are the ones who vote on what other catholics believe so they're trying to make
00:22:59.300them set they're the second class citizen of the catholic church it's not that they're second
00:23:05.460class citizens it's the the fight is over and this is what i think a lot of the traditionalist
00:23:11.180catholics are missing they think the fight is over the lay person when they don't realize the
00:23:17.480fight is over the bureaucracy and if the bureaucracy can just remove anybody who comes
00:23:23.520into it but has different opinions from being able to vote then and what's what's fascinating0.78
00:23:29.040to me is i doubt they would be doing these sorts of excommunications if these people were africans
00:23:32.760or whatever it's specifically conservatism in western cultures that they will not allow a slide
00:23:39.140back on well that's interesting yeah because it did it did come out of switzerland in the 1970s
00:23:43.960And it was just specifically about Vatican II.
00:23:46.720Like, we're not cool with the liturgy post-Vatican II, and we want there to be a much more pious, like, true-to-real Catholicism practice that we can all turn to.
00:24:05.180And you're like, no, no, no, the Vatican isn't captured by groups that are explicitly anti-white.
00:24:10.040Keep in mind that when the Trump administration tried to take white refugees who were being murdered, like we have very well documented in South Africa, the organizations that ended up shutting down that year were the Episcopal Organization for Helping Refugees and the Catholic Organization for Helping Refugees.
00:24:28.840They had both been operating for like half a century.0.68
00:24:31.460The Episcopal Organization explicitly said, we're doing this because we don't want to help these people.
00:24:35.540And the Catholic organization did not say that. It just happened around that time period. It plausibly could have been something else. But I think, you know, it's up to people to be honest with themselves about what they're seeing in these organizations. Are they institutionally racist organizations? I mean, would they apply the same rules to a black congregation or black priests? Because I think there are many black priests in parts of the way Catholicism is practiced in Africa that are significantly more conservative.
00:25:03.080so why aren't they having the rules apply to them in the same way and the answer is obviously
00:25:07.520different standards for different ethnic groups because they have different outcomes they want
00:25:12.140from different ethnic groups though it should what's weird about this and like where i see this
00:25:16.480ongoing tension because i see what you're saying it's basically they're like you can exist you just
00:25:22.300can't have a voice because we don't want you can't have institutional power because we don't want to
00:25:27.020lose the institutional power that we have taken control. Because when the founder of SSPX created
00:25:34.440this new offshoot, the local bishop, who was also in Switzerland, approved of it. They said it was
00:25:41.480a pious union of priests in the diocese. And they just kind of saw it as like, well, this experimental
00:25:47.440branch, which is something that we've often lauded about Catholicism, that it's this religion that
00:25:52.880is able to have sort of these like more extreme offshoots and can innovate and they're kind of
00:25:57.680like the the skunk works of the religion and if they're good they get reintegrated if they're not
00:26:02.420they don't get reintegrated and what we have here is an issue of the discernment on what can be
00:26:08.020reintegrated being disconnected with the actual best interests and true nature of the church and
00:26:14.260its purpose but this yeah that's really interesting because they they initially sent visitors to
00:26:22.840like rome did when when this new group formed they like sent people over to check it out and
00:26:30.240they had favorable reviews of it and they thought that you know it was it was solid so this just
00:26:36.600this didn't start out as an attack antagonistic relationship and sspx has grown a ton so as of
00:26:43.3802025, they have around 1,482 members in total. But by members, I mean, bishops, priests,
00:26:53.360seminarians, and brothers. So there are more like 600,000 or so faithful. And that's a lot of people.
00:27:03.280Plus, when you consider especially this is a hard religion, there aren't any actual estimates of
00:27:09.240their unique birth rates there's only estimates of traditional latin mass catholics and that can
00:27:15.760be a larger group than just sspx but this widely cited u.s survey of latin mass attendees and of
00:27:22.620course latin mass is like the sspx thing found that let's if i want to go over like what what's
00:27:30.480the beliefs that they had that got them the sex communication hold on latin mass attendees have
00:27:34.400an average of 3.6 children per woman oh god whereas normal catholics have around 2.30.51
00:27:40.820so that's significant like that's a very meaningful difference that's those numbers0.99
00:27:45.820aren't accurate by the way how so catholics are way below replacement rate like they've been
00:27:51.500below replacement rate since oh okay so you're saying the early 80s wherever you got those
00:27:57.280normal catholics are yeah catholic average fertility rate is like 1.1 simone i do not know
00:28:03.740where you're getting these numbers from i look at the year of this survey maybe it's just that
00:28:07.720it's one of the older ones i didn't check the year when i looked at the page that probably
00:28:13.380worth doing because catholics have had in the united states the catholic average fertility
00:28:17.460rate the non-hispanic 2018 that's interesting the non-hispanic catholic fertility rate in the
00:28:23.560united states was 1.6 and this was back in the 1980s 1986 is when it was taken well all the
00:28:31.400data was collected between march 2018 and november in the united states i think so okay so i'll tell
00:28:37.380you where you got the the funky numbers from okay it's including his the the only high fertility
00:28:43.120catholic group on earth really in in mass when you're not talking about the the the latin mass
00:28:48.340ones are hispanic american catholics hispanic catholics are low fertility in all of their
00:28:54.040native countries but they're very high fertility in the united states so you're likely seeing the
00:28:58.580but like it was in arizona california colorado new hampshire and texas so yeah that's gonna have
00:29:04.220especially in arizona and california and texas a decent number of immigrants okay so
00:29:11.760they're fine but still i mean a meaningful difference in in practice of fertility rates
00:29:21.240and that a lot of commentators see that as like a 60 larger family size and in general like other
00:29:28.560social science work on religiosity in which we've reported on elsewhere shows that people who as we
00:29:34.640put it practice more hard religion are more likely to have higher fertility rates it doesn't matter
00:29:39.940the point i'm making is that that's just not are you are you disputing that sspx members have
00:29:49.280what no what i'm what i'm disputing is that it's not relevant to your ability to control the vatican
00:29:58.560Right, right, right, right. What you find most interesting in this is this systematic bureaucratic resistance to reform when reform means getting rid of changes made that we don't think are true and that many Catholics don't think are true to the Catholic faith, correct?
00:30:17.360Yeah, yeah. So who does have a vote within the Catholic Church? So we talk about like recapturing.
00:30:24.500cardinals are created exclusively by the pope and even the existing cardinals do not vote in new
00:30:30.340cardinals that's only the pope's decision oh my god that's an incredibly hard system to ever crack
00:30:35.260yeah if only the pope can appoint cardinals and only cardinals can vote on the pope and
00:30:40.460most of those groups are entirely captured the bishops would have had a vote in big things like
00:30:47.200vatican ii like presumably all the bishops vote on that so they're basically making it so that like
00:30:51.740not even a drip of doubt can come in not even a drip of opposition can enter wow so there's
00:30:58.080basically no room for reform the way that governance is structured you'd have just not
00:31:03.000possible yeah you'd have to take out the existing leadership system almost entirely like like it
00:31:08.240would require like revolution to get reform that is why i had no idea it was that bad and if you
00:31:15.040want to go over what they held these members to get them excommunicated for putting bishops with
00:31:20.580these beliefs into a position to potentially vote in future councils, Vatican II itself.
00:31:26.600The council contains serious errors and ambiguities, especially in religious liberty. This is what
00:31:31.700SPX thought, which it just like, again, see our other episode on this, the gay Jew who wrote0.55
00:31:37.440core Catholic doctrine and deconverted, by the way, after that, the, the, for people who are0.76
00:31:42.040wondering, he wrote the entirety of the first draft of one of the key documents of Vatican II
00:31:45.560on ecumenicalism which is these people's core complaint the guy who wrote the first draft of
00:31:50.940the document is no longer catholic right like i can understand why they might be like well should
00:31:55.340we really like this seems to go against some of the older beliefs in catholicism and and apparently
00:31:59.640this is the number one thing that they're they're mad about okay that is mad about that sspx is
00:32:04.820mad about the vatican that the vatican is mad at sspx about is sspx views on ecumenicalism like
00:32:11.700trying to integrate that they're trying to consecrate consecrate bishops well no this is
00:32:17.680the view that we're threatening to the vatican okay that sspx this is a view that says like0.93
00:32:23.540hey maybe we shouldn't have endless immigrants of other religions right like maybe no yeah that's0.98
00:32:29.180that's the other yeah like well i mean amongst that is one of the many things but yeah they're0.98
00:32:33.160they're well more broadly it's not like oh so vatican 2 as you pointed out in the the gay
00:32:40.800catholic whatever one jew episode that there's this big thing about like oh let's have interfaith
00:32:47.300dialogue and maybe everyone's kind of right which sspx is like no catholicism is the one true faith
00:32:54.980we're not going to be like oh i don't know i guess everyone's kind of cool it's fine let's
00:32:58.620all talk together and be friends like no catholic like you can talk and be friends and still be like
00:33:03.500but we're the right ones yeah like that's the whole point is it and this is why we love talking
00:33:08.300with our catholic friends and friends of other religion especially our catholic friends though
00:33:11.560and i guess our catholic friends lean more in the sspx direction because they're like
00:33:14.980i mean that's a great you know we understand your point you're wrong and i love that like i want to
00:33:21.380have that debate and the the leaning of of the of like post vatican to catholic church is very
00:33:27.740different but then i mean you know it's they're also super against this this idea of in general
00:33:35.740kind of taking away the sacredness of the catholic church like this manifests in many
00:33:40.180different ways right that i mean we talk most about the latin mass and their their obsession
00:33:45.840obsession with the latin mass but there's also subtle things like it's not there's not enough
00:33:50.440formal rule about this but there are what are they called rails there are these these rails
00:33:56.760that sort of separate the the key part of the church what is it called the sanctuary from the
00:34:03.740nave where like the the parishioners sit and post vatican too it kind of just became the thing
00:34:10.840to remove the rails which both you would sort of kneel at for communion but also provided this
00:34:18.480feeling of physical separation from a more sacred space and it separated the priests from the from
00:34:26.560their flock and sort of showed them to be like hey this is this stuff happening here is sacred
00:34:31.480and special. And when you take that away, it makes all of it feel like less authoritative,
00:34:37.700less exciting and magical and meaningful. And also, I think this is understated, but just from
00:34:45.480a practical family perspective, and I really felt this when I took Octavian into a Catholic church,
00:34:53.300when we took him just to DC, like a couple months back, when you have a lot of little kids running
00:34:58.660around a catholic church which you should if you have a successful parish they might just run
00:35:05.940straight up like the fence is useful and especially like to kids who can't really understand actually
00:35:11.680that's such a good point the fence is a sign of a church with kids it is a sign of a church because
00:35:16.960what is the first thing octavian did when we got into the tree like walks up he like i'm gonna sit
00:35:21.400on like the big spot like it's it's a little bit raised here i'm gonna go to the coolest part and
00:35:25.820I'm going to climb up on it. And I'm like, Oh my God, no stop. I think I even have video of it
00:35:30.100that I can send to you. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Thank God no one was in there,
00:35:34.020but like, there's a reason there are guardrails and it's not just like, Oh, but like from a
00:35:39.360practical standpoint, it communicates to children that this is sacred, that we don't touch that.
00:35:44.960And it's the same in like an adult's house, right? Like this is my white living room for
00:35:49.120entertaining. We have a little kid fence here. You don't walk in it. Like kids understand the
00:35:54.740rails okay and that's why we had those those stained glass windows like well you know they
00:36:00.060can't understand what's happening even if if the if the mass is in english that's true yeah they're
00:36:05.120like comic books of what happened in the bible yeah and like when you start to take these things
00:36:09.160away or you like make the stained glass well no they take them away after they don't even remember
00:36:15.460the utility of something like that by the time there's no kids left they don't remember why you
00:36:20.780would have something right yeah because like what kid in the church is running up you know into the
00:36:25.160the sanctuary because there aren't any kids to run into the sanctuary but if you if you go over
00:36:30.180i want to go over all the individual things that really piss the church off so one was that they
00:36:33.920wanted more ecumenicalism or sorry less ecumenicalism they're like yeah look you can be
00:36:38.380nice to people of other religions while saying they're wrong right and the vatican is like no
00:36:42.120you can't yeah yeah yeah they they the council they also teach on religious freedom like that
00:36:47.920there's this core doctrinal freedom yeah and and or that there are even false religions contradicts
00:36:54.040earlier popes who taught error has no rights yeah and the vatican absolutely says no nothing in
00:37:00.000vatican 2 contradicts previous stuff whereas spx says no there's and and most protestants say that
00:37:04.980vatican 2 does seem to clearly contradict previous stuff yeah i don't want to like go over all the
00:37:09.640points in it because of course you have the official vatican answer and a lot of vaticanists
00:37:14.380will just repeat the official vatican answer without applying critical thought to is that
00:37:18.920actually a good answer like did that answer pass for what i need to believe is existentially true
00:37:24.100about reality the new the new mass versus the latin mass was actually genuinely one of the
00:37:30.280reasons why the vatican excommunicated them apparently they were just like really mad that
00:37:35.180we might have people who would oppose the new mass which well they even like so there it wasn't
00:37:41.160like they kept reiterating that like we we don't do latin mass like they kept trying to demote and
00:37:47.020demote and demote latin mass so there was even this thing there's this 2021 decree no if you're
00:37:52.900about it hold on before you go further with this if you're a catholic ask yourself why they're doing
00:37:56.580this like that latin mass they're trying to take the sacredness out of catholicism it's so clearly
00:38:03.700more popular it's clearly practice in churches that have lower attrition rates it's clearly
00:38:08.880practice in churches that have higher birth rates the common people love it why would you
00:38:14.080remove something like that well yeah and latin mass is harder like it's like i i guess it's like
00:38:22.960a oh god what's it denying an a to the student who like actually does all the homework and takes all
00:38:31.800the tests and gets perfect scores that's a that's a great way to put it if you're looking at it in
00:38:36.800like america it's like you are intentionally punishing your highest fidelity highest performing
00:38:43.360highest vitalist highest community part of your religion why would you do that like i want you to
00:38:50.200think they're like no no no we're pass fail we know you're out you can't the reason you would
00:38:56.320do that is if your explicit goal was the demoralization and destruction of the institution
00:39:03.080It really feels that way. It super feels that way. Anyway, there was this thing in 2021 called the Traditionis Custodis that was this decree by Pope Francis that imposed strong limits on celebrating the traditional Latin Mass, according to the 1962 Roman Missal.
00:39:25.920it requires that bishops get vatican permission for certain uses of the old right and it generally
00:39:32.100discouraged new communities from using it and in practice what what some of our friends who
00:39:37.060are catholics have seen is that it's just like shoved so like one corner of a church and like
00:39:41.640basically hidden as much as possible so they not only like as much as they were like oh sure like
00:39:47.420we're fine with you you can stay there they get mad every time they consecrate bishops
00:39:52.880every time you know that they get really excited about latin masks they're like oh but like why
00:39:58.200don't you just do it like behind why don't you do it by the trash dumpster you know like go do it
00:40:02.880there it's they're just they're being so mean well because i i like i like this isn't even
00:40:11.060conspiratorial and i'm asking you to try to figure this out yeah why are they against the
00:40:16.200more popular form of the mass that seems to do better yeah that's a good question so
00:40:25.840okay so the main reason comes from vatican ii well yeah and when that that's the core thing
00:40:32.100i mean like again the core thing of sspx is vatican ii runs counter to the catholic church
00:40:39.100yeah what happened like whose idea because they believe that the latin mass well this is their
00:40:44.820argument they say it detracts from the unity of the church specifically the unique expression
00:40:51.580of lexiority or the law of worship of the roman right so basically because some catholics are
00:40:57.660practicing in a way that's different from other catholics even if it's more popular and better
00:41:01.880in any way they they're they're antagonistic to it that's wild it's again it's it's it's it's0.99
00:41:12.980queen bee mean girl assertion of authority that classic governance thing i mean i i see the point
00:41:19.320that you're making but it's also the whole like you're questioning my authority and if i don't
00:41:23.440crack down my authority is going to become increasingly undermined and when i say like
00:41:28.920don't do this and they keep doing it then what what does my rule mean anymore but we can jump to
00:41:35.560the it's it's really important to know that the the the point of no return for all of this
00:41:43.780is always putting somebody into a position where they might be able to vote on what is
00:41:48.460true in Catholicism right yeah well but clearly the Vatican's not gonna not gonna let anyone get
00:41:57.460close to making differences there so what does it matter basically I think honestly the more that
00:42:04.000sspx moves away from this the better in fact i kind of wish they were doing what the anglican
00:42:11.860church has done so i'll let you know what's going on there because you are you aware of what's going
00:42:16.460on with the anglican schism yeah they elected a lady bishop well no okay yeah so basically
00:42:23.820a bunch of other groups primarily what is it there's it's gafcon but what's what does the
00:42:31.240acronym stand for the global Anglican future conference has basically been like all right
00:42:37.660we're not with the archbishop of Canterbury anymore like we're not going to share communion0.92
00:42:42.200I'm not with stupid anymore like we're not doing this and so as much as they're trying0.95
00:42:49.720to not describe this as a schism they prefer to call it a real a realignment or reformation0.98
00:42:58.060and they're trying to say we're not founding a new church we're just restoring anglicanism
00:43:03.340around its original doctrinal center they're the bible that's a pretty naughty thing well i mean
00:43:10.300if you're electing a lady pope which is what the anglicans did so the reason i call her lady pope
00:43:15.360important to understand who the anglicans are um when england became protestant the crown really
00:43:22.620still liked the idea of a state religion and catholicism more broadly he was like a
00:43:26.620fervent henry the eighth was a fervent catholic like so much that the pope like gave him a special
00:43:31.420award or something as like a defender of the faith until the pope out of like you know sheer0.52
00:43:37.960douchiness really it was it was oh well that's my niece or something who you'd have to divorce to
00:43:43.920have a kid and henry had to have a kid if he didn't have a male son it could have led to a
00:43:49.160civil war which would have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and countless
00:43:55.340suffering and children dying like what he was doing queen catherine of aragon was what like
00:44:00.420his niece or something or like there was a family relation it was a family relation that's why you
00:44:04.880wouldn't let him um which again like this shows the problem corruption in the church led to
00:44:10.160protestantism because without the english but anyway so the english become protestant and
00:44:14.760they're they but they try to keep their yeah like they need their protestant pope and that's the
00:44:20.400Archbishop of Canterbury. As Catholic-y as possible. Yeah. And that group is the group
00:44:26.700called the Anglicans. And this group in early America was heavily, like early Americans hated
00:44:31.920the Anglicans. We, the early Americans, thought they were basically just another shade of
00:44:36.580Catholicism. Yeah. And we're just as suspicious as Catholics. But anyway, continue. Yeah. So
00:44:41.860anyway, this is something that's been a slow burn over the past 20 to 30 years. Conservative
00:44:47.720of anglican provinces especially in the global south so like outside the uk have just continued
00:44:53.680to like slowly step away from the church of england and other liberal western provinces that
00:45:00.380have anglican churches over issues like same-sex blessings and women's ordination because they just
00:45:06.520started doing that out of nowhere and this culminated in 2025 and 2026 into this formal
00:45:14.740break where at the Global Anglican Future Conference, also known as GAFCON, allied
00:45:20.340provinces decided that they would no longer officially represent or recognize the authority
00:45:27.900of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the traditional instruments of the communion. So they are not
00:45:34.140going to participate in meetings called by the Archbishop of Canterbury. They're not going to
00:45:38.340the Archbishop's birthday party anymore. They're not going to contribute to the Anglican communion
00:45:43.920structures. They will amend constitutions to remove references to Canterbury. We are just
00:45:50.640erasing her from our diary. We're deleting her from our contact book. She's out. And this has
00:45:57.540roughly split the Anglican community in half with each side claiming that I'm the official
00:46:05.460Anglican community. No, I'm the official Anglican community. Yeah. And this is what it comes down to
00:46:09.720when there's this real hatred of the idea even if like structurally an individual is schismatic
00:46:17.160yeah admitting that they're schismatic right yeah but this is i think this is what sspx should
00:46:23.320honestly be doing i think they should be like look we've tried to play nice with the vatican
00:46:29.080they have shown repeatedly that they are not actually catholic anymore here like the bazillion
00:46:33.820reasons why we are the catholic church now like they're being way too nice they need to be a ton
00:46:40.720more aggressive and another element of this that i think makes it so troublesome is aside from the
00:46:46.760governance issues that you revealed that you surfaced in this episode and emphasized
00:46:50.820the the vatican actually has a a monetary incentive to lean in to this heretical but also0.54
00:47:01.160a very low fertility segment of its of its like a strategy because when you have all these catholic
00:47:10.200schools and all these convents and all these monasteries shutting down because no one's left
00:47:16.620in the area guess what you get to do you get to sell it to like katy perry and make millions of
00:47:22.940dollars the pope in his fancy red shoes no they're literally like king henry the eighth thing their
00:47:29.240own church they're selling it for shirts and i think that's sex parties yeah well look we have
00:47:37.580issues i think you even we we may have covered this in an episode but we never ran it those
00:47:42.740nuns who like refuse to leave this convent that they tried to shut down and they're like and we
00:47:47.660don't want to leave like we we this is our convent and what are you talking about they're like no you
00:47:51.860gotta go you gotta go oh my god we almost bought a convent yeah being sold well like fun the
00:47:58.200fundraising didn't work. We wanted to turn it into a, uh, like a village with a lab school that
00:48:03.540like a bunch of high fertility families could live in and commute to New York city. It was so0.97
00:48:07.840beautiful, but yeah, they, they were, they were selling it because there weren't enough
00:48:12.060nuns. Isn't that just so convenient for the church? There's also, it's not just about
00:48:18.180maintaining this control and disenfranchise people who can undermine their authority.
00:48:22.460it's about like oh actually it's not so bad that all these people are just disappearing
00:48:28.660because in the in the immediate aftermath of that we get money and we like money yeah well
00:48:36.700we needed to fund our lifestyle right and and keep in mind that the people with positions of power
00:48:41.520you want to be popular at the u.n you want to be popular with the urban monoculture you push for
00:48:46.600ecumenicalism yeah yeah and again like it's just so similar to what's happening with anglicanism0.68
00:48:52.860where they're like no we're not we're not doing this same-sex marriage we're not doing female
00:48:56.560like we're if this isn't i also want to keep in mind how crazy our position should sound to
00:49:02.440somebody that us non-catholics who have many doctrinal disagreements with catholicism
00:49:08.400we're like what is your biggest disagreement it's that you're too ecumenical and like but that means
00:49:15.140they're more open to people like you and i'm like they shouldn't be they should have pride
00:49:20.560in their beliefs and double down on how they're different yeah yeah it's it's it's crazy i think
00:49:29.600these are the really the key schisms to watch there's also a schism that's taking place in
00:49:34.160the orthodox church but it's not that big of a deal it's that more since 2018 the russian orthodox
00:49:42.080church has severed eucharistic communion with the ecumenical patriarch patriarch patriarchates
00:49:50.040is that what they're called of constantinople and and some other churches like in greece and
00:49:54.680alexandria and cyprus specifically because let's see one of them i think constantinople granted
00:50:03.180independence to the orthodox church of ukraine in 2018 because i don't know maybe russia
00:50:11.960was invading Ukraine and it seemed kind of unfair to Constantinople so they're like well I guess
00:50:17.180since you're not friends anymore do they get a new bishop you're independent now like you can do your
00:50:24.320own thing and the Russian the Moscow Patriarchate specifically was like hey you can't do that on
00:50:31.280whose authority do you do that and so then essentially they're like well my religious
00:50:39.660tokens aren't accepted in the same way that yours are and and so it's it's really weird like it
00:50:46.180doesn't practically speaking it doesn't really make a whole ton of sense to me i mean i would
00:50:51.980think that the plurality of patriarchs voting should have the ability to out vote a single
00:50:57.740patriarch exactly but it's it's both sides still share the same theology and the same sacrament so
00:51:05.320this isn't a doctrinal disagreement it's more about like who's allowed to declare whom but this
00:51:12.220is this is very different so yeah the the the in in this case it is something that in a hundred
00:51:19.500years nobody's going to care about right like yeah yeah well i'm sure like it's this stuff is
00:51:24.460going to change and there's going to be a point in time at which moscow is no longer not out of
00:51:30.380no longer out of communion with the other orthodox churches right now existential issue like it just
00:51:37.960it just has to do with the war that's it it's gonna the the what's happening with the anglicans
00:51:44.020is that is absolutely existential well and it's the same kind of it's the same broad trend as
00:51:49.540what's happening with sspx is basically with multiple churches the anglican church the catholic
00:51:54.740church there's a subset that's like what are you doing this is not what we're about and then there's
00:51:59.460this other subset that's like what are you talking about i'm gonna do what i want like church no
00:52:03.560everyone's kind of right and also money yay and that's that's what you know i'm just really hoping
00:52:09.080that those who are really leaning in to hard religion win in the long run
00:52:14.720hold on i'm not asking like what is the even the mechanism if popes a point okay continue with your
00:52:23.520thought well no i just i i know that you pointed out this hopeless view that from a bureaucratic
00:52:30.860standpoint there's no reversing the vatican like they're just going to run themselves into the
00:52:37.220ground functionally but my hope is that as sspx keeps growing and that these other hard religious
00:52:44.660versions of catholicism and anglicanism grow that they're just going to become the new de facto
00:52:51.060churches like there's not it's it's just going to be the vatican in name only i mean maybe maybe
00:52:59.660there will never there won't really be a vatican city for the catholic church in the future like
00:53:06.100it just won't happen anymore but does that even matter i mean you really don't need this
00:53:12.260majority country right which it will you don't need it anymore anyway yeah i mean it just it
00:53:18.700won't make sense for it to be the in short answer there's really nothing so i'm trying to figure
00:53:24.040this out yeah you cannot in castellacism take back power using demographics or fanaticism
00:53:29.120yeah the pope appoints the cardinals the cardinals vote on the pope there's no there's a little sus
00:53:35.480wow okay the only thing that it could potentially do is it creates like a larger pool and there
00:53:43.000just aren't as many potential candidates for cardinal for the pope to select from that would
00:53:51.460not share their beliefs the problem is is you don't need a large portion right like and and
00:53:58.600the secondary problem is is that because that the catholic priest caste becomes separated from
00:54:03.860mainstream society they're not as affected by the conservative views of that society and i've
00:54:10.040really seen this on the people who we know who have gone the route of catholic priest or nun
00:54:15.200it's they basically get separated from anyone who's not in the priesthood or who's not a nun
00:54:20.120and so the wider political battle of the catholics who have these large families
00:54:25.060is not something that they are that that's not their world anymore right like that's not
00:54:31.520reaching them to the same extent which means that even if you control like the vast majority of the
00:54:38.980lay people uh choking the access what you really have to do is choke the access of this counter
00:54:47.740religion or or progressive sort of elitist religion choke the access to cardinal candidates
00:54:53.740that come from this right like because as long as they're it's not like the pope's choosing
00:54:57.080cardinal candidates at random he's choosing the ones that agree with his his viewpoint so you
00:55:00.960need there to not be just like 80 percent of the cardinal candidates are are would vote the way
00:55:06.440that you want. You need to remove the 20% that wouldn't. And getting to that point is essentially
00:55:12.320impossible. Yeah, absolutely. Which is wild. And especially keep in mind the demographic realities
00:55:22.420and threats that a lot of the Catholic majority countries are going to be facing as well.
00:55:30.200That's fascinating. It's all around quite fascinating. We're glad to be techno-Puritans.
00:55:34.820not our problem not our problem you guys figure it out we we love you well okay i i love you guys
00:55:40.320malcolm yes i i i like them as human beings but i you agree at least that they have the best
00:55:47.780catholics not anglicans have the best clothing so they do have the best clothing yeah absolutely
00:55:53.580you got that concession from malcolm okay it's it's the best style well because it looks like
00:55:58.420a gay person designed them all and gays are good designers they're the best yeah i mean in my
00:56:03.560opinion you know you can't get uh if you're going uniforms catholics are like just under nazis
00:56:10.080you know maybe maybe at the same level right when we're talking
00:56:13.920everybody agrees that nazis had hot uniforms no it's true it's it's true this is why we had
00:56:21.820all these problems in like east asia where all these like young teens and stuff would be seen0.98
00:56:27.300wearing ss uniforms and they'd have no understanding you know because they just found
00:56:31.400like this cool looking cosplay outfit they're like i'm gonna buy that one strutting around
00:56:37.420not having any understanding of what they represent no well i mean you know they look
00:56:42.200good it's a good look it's a good look whatever right it's a great look it's fantastic yeah i i
00:56:47.900think you know it's it's a if i was younger i think it's a look more for younger people but
00:56:53.640nazi uniforms are a young person look yeah they will they work a bit better on younger people
00:56:58.580you have to have a svelte body yeah if you have like a punch it ruins the entire line of the0.61
00:57:04.120outfit it's absolutely true or if you hunch it is only for people with amazing posture high
00:57:09.600discipline high fitness etc i totally agree that's a that's a i guess the point but you can do that
00:57:15.380and also be of advanced age as is shown by the nazi inspired uniforms in star wars where you
00:57:20.720have some imperial officers who aren't definitely on the older side who still look pretty good in
00:57:24.560their uniforms so i'll push back a little bit on that yeah but i'm sort of in this position of like
00:57:30.320i wish that there was something that they could do i wish that there was a realistic pathway to
00:57:36.260taking back the church i just don't see it right now i think they should take the anglican route
00:57:41.980i think they should be like all right we're we're the catholic church but there's already
00:57:45.140groups of catholics that have done that oh yeah i didn't yeah they basically said that the blank
00:57:50.780council was the vatican was taken over yeah well no but before that like the vatican was taken
00:57:56.260over through an unfair election which is actually kind of plausibly true so
00:58:00.740yeah well i mean everyone went super into the lore of how popes are selected the last time
00:58:07.380that happened you know with pope leo and i think it became fairly clear to a lot of people that
00:58:12.060like this process is not exactly optimal you know whatever well i mean it's it's not about
00:58:21.920and that's part of the thing it's it's it's not about what the average catholic thinks or wants
00:58:27.220you know it's about what the elite think or want it's just i don't think anyone imagine that the
00:58:32.400elite would be captured by this sort of alternate religious mindset yeah yeah yeah it's kind of
00:58:39.820like you could say representative democracy where americans were like look i trust our essentially
00:58:45.140landed gentry to make good decisions for us except what if suddenly that group of people just became
00:58:51.640alien and completely separated from the interests of the larger lay people well the elite within our0.98
00:58:58.100country as well within most religions are disproportionately captured by the urban
00:59:01.540monoculture in the united states if you say well only the elite quote-unquote elite in the country
00:59:06.420the the the wealthiest or the you know those who had over a certain iq could vote you get way more
00:59:14.380democratic candidates yeah anyway i love you i love you too interesting topic fun stuff
00:59:22.960it's always next we'll do my book from when i was a kid all right perfect
00:59:28.000all right i'm ready okay love you i love you too
00:59:35.680oh yes well no no stay down here stay down here stay down here come back come back
00:59:47.000yeah yeah are they going to read a story yet for something
00:59:54.440they're doing nothing well there's no church services taking place right now the church