New Stats Show Incels are a Far Left Movement
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Summary
In this episode, Simone and I discuss a recent Pew Research study that suggests a link between incels and the far-right. We also discuss the origins of the term "incels" and how it came to be used in the first place.
Transcript
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Hello, Simone. It is great to be chatting with you today. I always love when statistics and
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new studies surprise me with information and help change my world perspective. And one such study
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came out recently on incels. And what it showed, many commenters have suggested a link between
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incels and the far right. However, using Pew Research's ideological consistency scale,
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this survey found that incels were slightly left of center on average. The exception was those who
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agreed with violence against individuals that cause incels harm, often justified. These
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individuals were right-leaning, though not extremely so. They held right-wing opinions for 60% of the
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items in the ideological consistency scale, compared to 45% for the rest of the sample.
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Would you like to know more? And this is really interesting to me. Because, and this is one of
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those things where, you know, the left, they just take a group that's bad, and then they pretend that
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they are overwhelmingly right-leaning. You know, as we always point out, until Obama was elected by
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538 polling, so mainstream Nate Silver polling, white Democrats were less likely to vote for a
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black candidate as president than Republicans. So there is not a racist voting block on the right
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that doesn't exist on the left at about equal proportions. And it's the same with incels we're
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seeing here. Incels exist across parties. Generally, they're slightly on the left, but when they are more
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violent, which I guess would make sense if they're interested in getting guns and stuff like that,
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and using them, they're going to come up as more on the right. Well, I think that's the thing. It's
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when you see this in, I can't use the word, people ending themselves stats, where women are far less
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likely to successfully end themselves, whereas men successfully end themselves. I think a lot of it
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all comes down to group efficacy. And I think that conservative groups have higher levels of efficacy in
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following through on things that matter to them. So that's an issue. I think it's more than that.
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I think if you think about what incelism actually is as a movement, if you think about the ideology
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of the movement, it is an intrinsically far left-leaning ideology. So let's talk about this,
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and let's talk about why they're not showing up as far left in the data, just slightly left-leaning.
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So specifically, what an incel believes is that they are owed something by society that they are not
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getting from society, and that the government should play a role in getting them that thing.
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If you look within incel circles, you know, what do they ask for? What they ask for is
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government-mandated prostitution, the government paid, like they ask for, and you see this within
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social communities, they want the government to find a way to deliver sex to them, or to impose
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social norms, like forced marriages and stuff like that, which would give them access to sex,
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which are both incredibly left-leaning ideas. The idea that you are owed something by your fellow
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man, and that those who have a poverty of that thing deserve the state to equitably distribute
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that thing, or have a right to use the state to equitably distribute that thing.
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And yeah, I mean, it's like, how is that not obviously a lefty position? And so then the question
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is, well, then why are they showing up as moderates on these surveys? And I think the answer is two
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things. I think that these surveys are wrongly, as I have pointed out, considering any racist views
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right-leaning, when really they're not. And I do know that racism is really common within
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incel communities. And they are counting anything that's pro-gun as a right-leaning viewpoint,
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which is also going to be common within incel communities, given their goals. And that's also
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why when they turn violent, they come off as right-leaning. But this gets even more interesting.
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Well, first, I want to hear your thoughts on this.
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It makes sense. And also, I learned that the term incel was actually started by a woman
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in 1997, who created a group for involuntary celibates. So didn't even have her conservative
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There's still this female incel movement, which is really psychotic, which we can talk about in the
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second half of this video, is the female incels, who are they and why are they so crazy? Because it's
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completely unjustified. But yeah, it was started by a woman. And there is a growing movement of
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female incels today that primarily kind of use the term ironically, but not really use the term
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ironically, because they still categorize themselves as this because they see the incel movement as
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having a number of things that they are. They're social outcasts who are nerdy and watch a lot of
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anime and write a lot of fan fiction. And they're like, that's me. This is my broad set of social issues.
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And I have trouble getting a man. And when they say a man, they mean a man in a relationship,
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which they'll often explicitly say, like, they're like, yeah, of course, I could get a guy to have
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sex with me. But what about a guy who, you know, wants a relationship or something like that?
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Hi, everybody. I am Chloe aka Bootcreate. For a period of time, I was actually the top Google result
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for a femcel. A femcel is a celibate woman. I think I recognize it's a little bit more complicated
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than that. I think there's a lot of people that do genuinely struggle in relationships and incels by
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kind of stripping down to like, oh, are you an incel or femcel by defining it as can you get just
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sex with somebody or able to have sex with someone is really, I think, reductive and not, not what I
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think the term originally meant, or really what it should mean, because I'd argue a lot of people can,
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you know, kind of get those things that even guys. I actually hear more so about guys getting
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offered that kind of somewhat randomly, a lot of guys that I know, than women.
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And if you look at the women who identify with this community, they're often fairly attractive,
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or like middling, which to me shows that this isn't what's happening. It's more of like a clout
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thing online, that they're using for shock value, and that is being reinforced on them. And so they
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they get affirmation from taking these perspectives by thirsty and cell men who are drawn to this,
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because they think they have a shot with these women. It's like a specific type of being a pick
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me. But to correlate a guy who cannot get sex at all with was a woman's experience, especially a woman
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who's not like incredibly ugly, is just like, insane. If you look at the data, they are not
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experiencing the same hardships at all. They do not have any understanding of what it would feel like
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to be a man in that situation at all. They are co-opting another community's suffering for social
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points in a way that, you know, could be seen as, you know, like a dressing up like a Native American
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or something like that, right? Like, this is a group that is genuinely suffering, genuinely has high
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rates of suicide, which is talked about in this study, genuinely feels wronged by society. And I
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think, in a part, rightly so. Like, is society structured in a way that is systemically unfair
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to men who have low social skills and low attractiveness? Yeah. Do they have a right to
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be angry because of that? I mean, if you think that you are owed equality by society, as most leftist
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positions do, then yes. If you think that, you know, you just accept that not everyone is born equal,
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and that that gives us different roles within society, then no. And when I say
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equal, I mean, equal in terms of competency or proficiencies, where the fact that some people
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are born less attractive than others. And you actually see this within leftist spheres, within
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women's spheres, this idea of sort of banning even the concept of attractiveness. Like, everyone is
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actually equally attractive. And the only reason why you see, like, fat women is unattractive is
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because of social. And then, you know, when incels are like, well, what about us? And they're like,
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no, what we mean by this is fat women should be allowed to have sex with conventionally attractive men
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and get those men in relationships. Not that we should have sex with men like you, of course.
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I think it's time for another adult pre-K lesson. What do you think? All right. Turn your listening
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ears on as you catch a bubble in your mouth. Good job. Okay. Here's the thing. Having a preference
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is something like, I'm looking for a partner who likes kayaking or wakes up early in the morning
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or loves pizza. But when your preferences exclude an entire group of marginalized people,
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that's problematic. Okay. That's not nice. That's not a preference. If you lump all fat people in
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one group together, as though they are not very different individuals, that's fat phobic. Just
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like lumping all black people in one group and saying, I don't like black people is racist.
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So, I mean, it's very delusional when you get into these far lefty circles, they don't really have
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any sense of some sort of real ethical core to them. They're just sort of, I want what I want,
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and I'm owed what I want, which is a very easy sort of mindset to spread or disseminate. But
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this all gets interesting to me in framing, because the left really dehumanizes incels constantly.
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Yeah. Which is weird because incels really represent that external locus of control and
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entitlement that epitomizes the left, at least per our perception.
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Yeah. And so what's going on here? I don't, I think the left is anti-male. Don't you think
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that's just the easiest, broadest answer? The left is not pro-male at all? I mean,
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when's the last time a man has been- The left will elevate attractive men who,
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they will, even if they're sometimes- Okay, who? Give me an example of the left really backing up
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a guy. I mean, you know what? Biden. No, they don't back him up. I guess they didn't bully Obama.
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They tolerate him. I'm talking about, you know, a not already famous leader. You know what I mean?
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I mean, a lot of the leftist YouTubers are men. Destiny, for example.
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Would you consider him leftist? He seems just kind of his own thing.
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He's famously leftist. There's some other ones. Bosch is a leftist.
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Yeah. But are people backing him up? Are people-
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Well, no. The left always attacks itself, but it attacks itself with its women and its men.
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The only time that I've really seen the left, we'll say, stand behind men is when those men
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have been killed by police, like George Floyd or something. Well, I don't know if he was really
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killed by police, but you know what I mean? Where he's dead. Otherwise, they would never really
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stand by a guy. I just don't. I think this is an anti-male thing. And so-
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I think I've heard it a little differently. I think that the left, the power circles within
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the left are controlled by female interests. Females have an intrinsic disgust towards men
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they see as being low sexual market value. This is just a thing. It initiates a disgust reaction.
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Most people, when they have a disgust reaction, they apply a moral negative to the thing that's
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eliciting the disgust reaction. This is why, you know, historically, like if you see somebody
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who's diseased or disabled, most people's natural response in a historic context is they must have
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done something sinful or wrong, right? Sure. Yeah. There's something wrong with them. We need to
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stay away from them. Right. Well, I mean, it makes sense too. If someone was really diseased or
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something, you probably wouldn't be well-served by reproducing with them or getting really close to
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them. But you also wouldn't be well-served by listening to them. You know, it makes sense to listen to
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beautiful people. By that, what I mean- Historically speaking, on average, evolutionarily speaking,
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on average, et cetera. Yeah. So if I'm in a cultural group, right, and I am choosing which
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people I listen to for advice about like how I should prepare a type of food, right? And one of
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those people looks a little off or deformed in some way or not perfectly facially symmetry,
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something in that food may have been causing some sort of level of toxicity. And so I know that the
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people who are uniquely Adonis-like are getting access to better health resources and better industry
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within society because they have more wealth and more power within society. So they are a better
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source of information. And so societies that elevated those individuals organically out-competed the
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societies that didn't in terms of how cultural evolution went within that society. And so of
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course, there's like a genetic reason to do this as well. So they see these disgust when they're
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interacting with these men or even conceptualizing these men. They associate the disgust with some sort of
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negative morality. And then they say, well, all negatively moral things must be rightist because
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that's the way the leftist mind works is if something is bad, then it is right. And if it is
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left, then it is not bad. Definitionally, no matter how like beyond the pale or insane it is,
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Hmm. Yeah, I could see that. I could see that. It's also just another example of the left
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completely screwing over another audience that broadly thinks that they should be represented
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by them, which is weird, but... Yeah. Well, I mean, it's important to understand that all politics
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is like organically evolving opinions. This is our perspective. Like, it's not that I don't think that
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there are some malevolent groups trying to push politics in specific ways, or that some foreign state
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actors have elevated specific political ideas. But I think when it comes to something like hatred of
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incels by the left, or the dehumanization, really, of incels by the left, this is coming out of organic
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action based on the demographics that control leftist mindshare. And that what incels really are is like
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simpy men who simp for lefty women, right? Like, who are sort of in this dom-sub relationship
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with the other side of the leftist movement, which is fascinating.
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Hmm. Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, so there have always been incels throughout history. I mean,
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we can see, genetically speaking, that incels have been around because there were a lot of men who
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didn't get to enter the gene pool. We see a lot more diversity, right, from female genes, indicating that
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there were a lot of men who just had a ton of partners, of female partners, and then way more
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men who just had zero partners. So why do you think that incels are more of a thing now? Or have
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incels always been a thing? And they've played a big role in the rise and fall of civilizations?
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Well, I think that different civilizations related to incels in different ways, and had different
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cultural technologies for neutralizing the negative effects that can come from incels. Because you do see
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negative effects from incels. Typically, the more unmatched men you have in a society,
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the higher the rates of terrorism you're going to have, the higher rates of prostitution you're
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going to have, the higher rates of murder you're going to have, the lower rates of trust in business
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deals. There's been some studies on this. It's really fascinating. And actually, if you see like
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bouts of terrorism in the Middle East, they often correlate to economic problems that prevented
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people from paying their bride price, which led to a bunch of unmarried, you know, incel young men
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because they're not having sex outside of marriage in these cultures. And so that motivates terrorism.
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And so it makes sense from a genetic level why it would. Like you go for broke, like your brain
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basically gets scrambled and you go for broke when it realizes it has no shot of reproducing.
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And then you're devalued by society. But in a historic context, we did not dehumanize, most
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cultures did not dehumanize incels to the extent that a lot of societies today dehumanize incels.
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So by this, what I mean is, you know, in Catholic culture, for example, if you were an incel, you could
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always just join the church's priesthood, right? As we've mentioned, the church's priesthood is
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predominantly same-sex attracted. It's like 52% or something like that. So that was both their
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solution to men who were born same-sex attracted and men who otherwise couldn't get partners and
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now can join this like high status thing, which prevents them from, and that affirms it was in
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their community, right? And it prevents them from taking negative actions because they're like,
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oh, this is why I'm celibate. I'm celibate because I'm like a good person, right? Like I've done
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extra, this extra pious thing. Then there's other cultural groups, you know, like in Rome or something
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like that. Like what happened to the incels that joined the military, right? There's plenty of
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raping to be had when you are on the war path or you die if you're unfit, you know? And this was
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seen, and the military was lauded. You know, these men were seen as the best and the bravest and the
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best of the best and everything like that. So, yeah. Yeah. So what? We just don't have enough
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war in religion right now? That's our problem. Yeah. We don't have enough war in religion that
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historically would have, you know, yeah. Provided an outlet for men who apparently
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weren't going to end up partnered. Oh, I guess. Well, and religion also did something else,
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which was imposed monogamy in many cases. So there were other ways where you could just,
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you can either give something for your incel population to do, or you can lower the proportion
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of your incel population by reducing functional polygamy. And I think that's the problem is that
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even in highly monogamous societies, if you have enough sufficiently wealthy men, you're going to
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get functional polygamy, which I think people then realize, even when you look at serial monogamy in
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the United States, like both our fathers had children with multiple women, not at the same time,
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but I think that happens a lot more than you would think. So it's not even men having side chicks.
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It's, it's, but it's still functionally happening. So you have to create a society in which
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not only is monogamy normalized and encouraged, but also divorce is discouraged apparently,
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or at least remarriage among men. Right. Yeah. Well, and I think to highlight the danger from the
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incel community is, is 5% of the community did feel that violence was often justified against those who
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would harm the incel community. And this was cross correlated with misogynistic views, feeling
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discriminated against and having poor mental health and a higher tendency to displace their aggression
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than other incels. So, so 5% is a pretty big number of, you're talking about internally justifying harm.
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And then you get some sort of like self-reinforcing community, like you can get within, you know,
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discord or 4chan. And these beliefs can begin to, while other people are treating them jocular,
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can begin to feel like things that you will earn status for having within your community.
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And then you move to believing that you will gain status for acting upon them within your community
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based on seeing individuals. I mean, Elliot Rogers definitely, you know, is seen as a hero by some
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in the incel community, despite the horrible things he did. And that fact, which is just a fact,
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does motivate and justify other incels to commit acts like that, because they see that they will be
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lauded in the same way. And so I think the right approach to this is actually the Jordan Peterson
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approach, which is to say, you know, have compassion for the community, point out that,
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yes, it is unfair. I'm sorry that life is unfair. There's nothing we can do about that except make
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future humans better, you know, make future humans less like you, which is a shame, but incel
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realizes if you look in incel discussions where, you know, I've, I've done some lurking and stuff like
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that. A common thing that you will see is cursing their mothers for allowing an unattractive man to
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sleep with her because they see that as like what led to their existence, that they should not have
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been born, that their relationship that their parents had should never have happened because
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it wasn't genetically high quality enough because in incel communities, there is a big belief in like
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genetics heritability because it allows for this fatalism about their genetic state in the world.
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Like they're, they're in a weird way, like aligned was the pernatalist community and that they see it as
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part of their duty to not have kids to improve as they would see it, the human gene pool, not as we
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would see it. I mean, I believe that there are many incels that likely do have something to offer
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the world and do have something genetically to offer the world. But if you're going to adopt a
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fatalistic philosophy, those sorts of mindsets, like actually you should look for what you do have
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a value. And then when you see what there is to value in yourself, then other people will see what
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there is to value in you. But what you value in yourself can't just be self-affirmation. It needs
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to be some form of genuine industry or creativity or ability to move the world forward in a positive
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direction, which is the thing that women want most in a partner. Like it's not hotness or even social
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status. I mean, they like those things too. Well, some women, yeah, like those things, but often not
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the women you want to marry. That's not what they're, they're optimizing around. I mean, do you really want
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a thought? Like, do you really want a woman who's out there like banging chads instead of looking for
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somebody who she respects? And they're like, oh, women are like that. And it's like, no, the techniques
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that you are using to engage women disproportionately sort for women like that. I almost never met women
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like this when I was dating. And I, you know, for my dating periods, dating five dates a week for like
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two years. Like very rarely did I meet these sort of vacuous women that incels talk about existing. If you
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are meeting them, you are in some way sorting for them in what you are putting out to the world.
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Well, yeah, I mean, to me, it seems that there are two types of incels. They're genuine incels,
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like people who really, regardless of circumstances, are not going to be able to find a partner
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given the dynamics at play in society and given what they've been dealt. But then there are other
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types of incels where they're just looking for love in all the wrong places, literally. And had they
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been raised in a different culture, had they taken a different direction, they could be
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happily coupled and happily married. Do you think that's accurate?
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What percentage do you think we have in society now? I mean, I think the bigger problem and why
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we have an incel problem isn't that we have a bunch of men who really couldn't get married. It's
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Fatalism, nihilism, infantilism, external locus of control, and looking and not knowing where to
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look, not being trained in dating, in courtship, in relationships, and in marriage.
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Which is, I think, and perhaps another reason why there are so many leftist incels. If you grow up in
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leftist culture, you're more likely to suffer from those attributes, right? You're more likely to have
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an external locus of control and be more nihilistic and not have a structured society that taught you
00:21:46.260
how to date and marry and engage in social graces. I grew up in a very progressive culture and I was
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not taught how to behave a certain way. You were taught how to behave a certain way. Your parents
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told you, this is how you eat at a table. This is how you speak to girls. This is how you date.
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Well, they also taught me that I was always responsible. When I'd get in trouble or something
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like that, and I'd be like, well, if things get really bad, if I get kicked out of school
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lately, then I don't have a place to stay. You guys love me, right? You'd let me stay. And they're
00:22:18.520
like, absolutely not. I was like, well, what if it's not my fault? And they go, it doesn't matter.
00:22:23.180
A lot of things happen to people in life that's not their fault. You've got to figure it out on your
00:22:26.580
But I think it's an underrated factor here. That's a conservative cultural view, in my opinion.
00:22:34.860
It is, but it's very healthy for kids to know that there is no backstop for them. Their parents
00:22:39.900
do not love them unconditionally. Their parents will not. And this is something,
00:22:43.300
how dare you say that to your kids? So if your kid's like a serial killer, you're still going
00:22:46.480
to be that mom who's like, I just don't understand. Little Tammy couldn't do that.
00:22:50.280
No, I love my kids based on them being good people. And I'm sorry about that, but I want
00:22:57.080
to raise good people. And I think that when you take this attitude towards parenting, you end up
00:23:01.500
with kids who are much more likely to become good people, to not become serial killers or incels for
00:23:07.660
that matter, because, you know, or at least the fatalist type of incel. I'm not particularly worried
00:23:13.300
about any of our kids being the other type of incel. They would need that, you know, just genetically,
00:23:17.260
it's unlikely because, and I think the core thing that creates incels, I should note, is not
00:23:21.720
that people are genetically unattractive. I think even very unattractive men can get women,
00:23:27.160
which we've all seen. Even unattractive poor men can get women. It is that they are genetically,
00:23:32.200
have a very low social intelligence and are just very bad at interacting with them.
00:23:36.380
That seems to be the correlatory factor, because when we see photos of incels,
00:23:40.660
and maybe those are just the ones that are willing to share photos, they don't look that bad.
00:23:44.080
So I totally agree with you. But I think that also has so much to say about society, because yes,
00:23:50.280
you can have low emotional intelligence, but you can also know, you can be taught what to do.
00:23:55.240
Just like through ABA therapy, autistic children are taught how to fake it in society and pretend that
00:24:02.560
they have emotional intelligence. They're taught how to read facial expressions on a basic level,
00:24:07.300
at least. They are taught how to act empathetic, et cetera, because it doesn't necessarily come
00:24:12.380
naturally to them. Yeah, guys being like, oh, I'm too autistic for that. And it's like, no, you're not.
00:24:17.300
Like, if you're watching this channel, no, you're not. You can get over it. You can get over it.
00:24:20.660
You can get through it. And I'd say it's like, if you're watching this channel, like if you are a big
00:24:24.440
watcher of our channel, they're probably autistic. Well, yeah, but there's also a bar of IQ that's
00:24:29.640
required to really, I think, understand the content or engage with the content. Well, no, it's true.
00:24:35.380
You know, you can see on YouTube, if you search for most watch videos, they are for a much less
00:24:38.780
intelligent audience. Well, you mean the ones that I created before this channel became Based Camp?
00:24:44.500
Yeah, that would be an example. But even those, I think, were pretty highbrow compared to-
00:24:48.640
I don't think so. I don't think making bunny-shaped hard-boiled eggs is exactly high IQ content.
00:24:55.400
But nice try, Malcolm. I love you. I love you too, Simone. You're an amazing woman. And I am so
00:25:00.160
satisfied that I found you to marry. And who knows, in a different reality,
00:25:05.200
I could have been an incel. Never. No. Sorry. I know. I'm sorry. But that's funny.
00:25:12.520
But I think it's important to sympathize with the plight of the incel, because it is a real plight,
00:25:16.560
and it's not always their fault. Yeah. No, especially if you have a sex drive. Man.
00:25:22.620
But sometimes it's their fault. Everything is your fault.
00:25:25.760
It's really interesting. I don't hate trans-maxing as a solution. These are incels who are transitioning
00:25:29.840
because they don't think they'll ever get laid. No, dude. Preach. I love it. Do what works for
00:25:36.100
you. In the end, do what works for you. Yeah. Anyway, love you. Yeah. I love you too.