In this episode, we discuss the philosophy of Emile Chiron, the Romanian philosopher who wrote the book "Better Not to Have Been Born" and his relationship with the concept of "suffering." We also talk about C.S. Lewis and why he was dumb.
00:00:00.000Hello, Simone! Today is going to be an interesting and philosophical episode, but also focused on psychology and sort of best mental health practices for living.
00:00:10.040I was listening to a podcast diving into the philosophy of Emile Chiron, who wrote Better Not to Have Been Born, the Romanian philosopher.
00:00:23.840And he exhibited many traits that I think that all of us are susceptible to, which is the protective shell of doomerism, pessimism, and this feeling of suffering is what life is.
00:00:45.340And I think that if we investigate this, we can understand why it feels so comfy to go to this place.
00:00:55.340That's cool. I guess you can join up with us.
00:01:11.340He's right. I don't even know who I am anymore. I like liking life a lot more than hating it. Screw you guys. I'm going home.
00:01:20.340Go ahead and go back to your sunshine fairy tale.
00:01:24.340And just as a bit of a preview here, I think there are a few things at play. I think one is it removes some degree of responsibility for one's own failures or states, so there is less need for self-judgment or self-motivation.
00:01:40.340Two is I believe that it looks chic, like it comes off-
00:01:49.340Three is it makes you much more difficult for other people to attack.
00:01:55.340It's a very lazy position to hold, intellectually speaking, because when people attempt to attack you, you know, you're just like, yeah, you know, life is terrible.
00:02:05.340You're like, you can't hurt me. Like, I'm at rock bottom. Where are you going to push me?
00:02:51.340So let's go over all of these through the framing of this individual, alright?
00:02:56.340So this individual is really important to antinatalist philosophy, where I study, you know, if our opponents have a philosophy, I make a point of studying their intellectual arguments as much as I could.
00:03:05.340He did not have any particularly sophisticated or interesting intellectual arguments, but he had a very interesting life.
00:04:20.340So this guy did basically, he was maxing this particular perspective in a way that I think that we can all learn from because we all are drawn to this perspective.
00:04:30.340One of the things he did is even though his book was famous, even though he was famous, he tried to never allow his book to win any awards.
00:04:40.340So he'd withdraw from any awards that he could win.
00:04:42.340He would put himself in environments that made him less likely to become more famous, specifically trying to hang out with other failures and be more of a failure, and specifically liked associating disproportionately with failures.
00:04:56.340The line that he used is that he didn't hate misfortune.
00:05:05.340And I think that this is something that we all know to some extent.
00:05:11.340In many ways, it feels safer to not even expose yourself to the potentiality of success, because having some goal and not achieving it can hurt more than never having had the goal in the first place.
00:05:28.340However, you are never going to achieve any life of genuine satisfaction if you don't build goals for yourself and occasionally fail, or even predominantly fail.
00:05:40.340I would say that a lot of successful people early in their careers predominantly failed before they reached that level of success.
00:05:55.340When you describe that behavior, it just made me think that we're listening to the description of someone who's suffering from some fairly severe emotional problems.
00:06:14.340Well, it just seems like super avoidant behavior, maybe, that he's very anxious about recognition.
00:06:20.340It's not, this is, I think, the mistake here, right?
00:06:23.340And I think that this is one of the things that we need to look out for was in our modern culture, is the medicalization and the depersonalization of things that are very much individual choices.
00:06:35.340And this was an individual choice that he made.
00:06:38.340And the reason I'm saying that this is not a medical choice or something like that is because it's a choice that I feel calling to me, that you can feel calling to you, that I think any mentally healthy person feels sometimes it would be better if I never even tried.
00:06:57.340It is easier to develop comfort with failure than it is to aspire to success.
00:07:04.340The mere fact that it is easier and maybe leads to less suffering was in your life does not mean that you should pursue it.
00:07:12.340The next thing here is I'd note to the, the chicness of pessimism and nihilism.
00:07:21.340And I think part of the question is, is why is pessimism and nihilism chic?
00:07:26.340You know, when I think of the classic nihilist, what I'm thinking of is the, you know, French beatnik in their, in their outfit, like being like, oh, nothing really matters.
00:07:35.340Oh, you know, and it's even chic as it's, oh, you know, the sexy philosopher man troubled with his, oh, nothing matters.
00:07:45.340Because, and I think that this is why it is sexy, right?
00:08:26.340Why it is alluring in high class, because if I'm looking at two people, and one person is like, hey, I genuinely believe that this stuff does matter, and I'm really excited about it.
00:08:39.340And the other person is, oh, missing matters.
00:08:43.340The person who wants things, who wants or is excited about something, has put themselves in any sort of interaction with this other person on the lower foot.
00:08:56.340Kaylee Hooper, to what do I owe the pleasure?
00:08:58.340Jack, pleasure is the name of a pony I hate.
00:09:32.340Well, in general, enthusiasm, approbation, excitement, they open one up to vulnerability.
00:09:39.340And to criticize those things implies that you have knowledge the other person doesn't, and that they are excited or optimistic or hopeful or trying out of ignorance.
00:09:51.340And that the person who is pessimistic or who knows better or who understands that that brand is actually shit is just more informed and therefore better in the hierarchy of that social interaction.
00:10:05.340So, if you're in a group of people and one person in the group of people comes up and they're like, I just found this really exciting new product or philosophy or idea.
00:10:16.340And then another person in the group goes, oh, I know about that.
00:10:25.340Like, that person has asserted dominance over the person who just came up all excited about the idea.
00:10:32.340And I can see why you would have a fear, like if you're building a profile, like a psychological profile to interact with the public, you are going to get a lot of dumb, easy hacks by taking this pessimistic approach.
00:10:48.340In the same way that Simone mentioned, when she was younger, she used to dress in these ridiculous, kind of slutty, like neon tapita dresses, very punky hipster, because the people around her socially rewarded her for this.
00:11:02.340As a, as a, you know, a young fertile girl, that's the way people are.
00:11:06.340But, if a long term, maxing for that would have really hurt her.
00:11:13.340And it's the same with this particular tactic.
00:11:16.340In individual conversations, especially when you're young, you can socially cheese those situations by taking the nihilistic perspective.
00:11:25.340And nihilism more than just general skepticism.
00:11:28.340Well, and even if you, like, I think it can happen very subtly, where just, every time you take a more pessimistic or nihilistic or antinatalist perspective, you win the conversation.
00:11:40.340Or you're seen as the more respectable person in the conversation.
00:11:43.340Or more people kind of nod and agree with you looking thoughtful.
00:11:46.340So, you might, you might, one, be subtly emotional and reinforced to do it, but also, you will be subtly signaled that it's correct, even if it isn't correct.
00:11:58.340So, with this particular philosophy, this may help you understand just some of the quotes from him here.
00:13:42.340And then you see him attacking their character for pointing out that his work is internally inconsistent.
00:13:49.340Or if you want to see other types of things that I think we all feel this way internally and drawn to this because it's such an easy way to frame ideas in our heads.
00:14:01.340I've been the one and only secretary of my own sensations.
00:14:04.340And these are just random quotes I'm pulling for this Wikipedia, but, like, you get the gist of, like, this guy thing, right?
00:14:10.340And I think that we, I bring this up because I think that this is a huge part of antinatalist philosophy is it's a psychologically protective mechanism.
00:14:36.340Like, it doesn't matter as, like, an intrinsic thing.
00:14:40.340It's just, like, what your ancestors sort of were coded based on an environment that has nothing to do with your modern environment to feel when facing specific stimuli in order to have the maximum number of surviving offspring.
00:14:54.340It is literally the most trivial thing you could base your life around.
00:14:58.340And yet it is so easy when you don't have to think beyond it to coat yourself in this.
00:15:05.340If life is suffering, then your responsibility, your failures are not your responsibility, which is an incredibly safe emotional place to be.
00:15:47.340Note, we don't go into a lot about arguments against the philosophy of antinatalism in this episode or negative utilitarianism, because we have a whole lot of arguments.
00:16:00.340We don't go into a lot about arguments against the philosophy of antinatalism in this episode or negative utilitarianism because we have a whole nother very long episode where we do that called These People Want You All Dead and are weirdly reasonable about it.
00:16:16.340Yeah, it also, though, strikes me as one of the lower effort interpretations of this that I've heard, because the Buddhist conclusion of the life is suffering doesn't just mean give up on everything.
00:16:30.340It means so learn how to not be attached to anything and then break the cycle, like commit permanent suicide and let yourself be released.
00:16:41.340But you want to make this decision on behalf of other people.
00:16:44.340Yeah, but I mean, this just seems like uniquely low agency.
00:16:47.340It's therefore I will not try for anything.
00:16:51.340I mean, there's some of that behavior is in there, like this choice to not submit for any book awards or even be eligible for any is, I guess, akin to trying to avoid dukkah, like suffering resulting from attachment.
00:17:14.340Well, I think that the point I'm making here is that we can very easily confuse psychologically protective mechanisms with a philosophy that is internally coherent and then build philosophy, actions, identity off of the psychological protective mechanisms.
00:17:38.340These tools for hacking conversations, these tools for not pressing yourself to engage with reality, these tools for excusing your own failures and then attempting to use this as a foundation upon which you build an identity, a house and a worldview.
00:17:54.340And this is really, really dangerous because any identity built on top of this is going to be an intrinsically toxic identity.
00:18:04.340It's going to hurt the people around you.
00:18:07.340And I think that this is really important to remember when you adapt this pessimistic and nihilistic mindset, it might help you in social situations, but everyone who hears you dress down that other person feels worse.
00:18:19.340Everyone who had the person walk into the group excited to share their excitement with other people, and those other people could have gotten excited about that thing, whether it's life or whatever, and you came in and desired to kill that excitement.
00:18:34.340You have made things worse for everyone.
00:18:41.340Think about this was in our like marriage or was my kids, right?
00:18:44.340Like if one of us is feeling down that day, we believe we have a philosophical and theological duty to not push that onto our kids, to not push that onto each other.
00:18:58.340Because like, as I said, like when the episode about my mom dying, I was like, yeah, I might feel bad.
00:19:04.340But like, if I go and I cry about this, like, who does that help?
00:19:09.340You know, I get to choose how I respond to this and I'm not going to choose that response to this.
00:19:15.340And yet these individuals choose that response to everything because it's the trump card.
00:19:20.340And this is what gets me about the ephilis and the antinatalists is they'll say things like, oh, I won't on a live, etc.
00:19:29.340Because it could cause suffering to others.
00:19:32.340It would cause suffering to all my friends and family, right?
00:19:35.340And it's like, but your entire philosophical framework, your entire way of acting, the way that you communicate with these people is likely putting them in a state of constant suffering that is higher than any degree that could be caused by you not being here.
00:19:53.340Yeah, you're doing them a net positive, probably.
00:20:27.340Their entire philosophy, when they share it, if you go to their subreddit, it's like the ephilism subreddit, it's just like pictures of like mutilated animals and like starving children.
00:20:37.340Because they're trying to show everyone, like, look at how bad the world is to maintain this constant state of despair when, if you are actually being realistic and looking at the numbers, you know we have the capacity to improve.
00:20:51.340We have the capacity to improve the world.
00:20:52.340You know, we have the capacity to improve technology.
00:20:55.340And we are seeing this in all of the data.
00:20:58.340Like we can make the world a better place.
00:21:00.340And yes, because of fertility collapse, there is going to be a period where things get harder.
00:21:04.340But we know from the technology that we've already built that we can achieve something better on the other side of that.
00:21:11.340Yeah, there's there's this other element of the attitude that I kind of have a wondering about and I'm wondering what your thoughts are, you'll probably say it's dumb.
00:21:22.340But it seems to me like nihilism and in general, this pessimistic attitude toward the world or what also manifests is like down with capitalism, they're all out to get us is a form of like a meta version of displaced aggression.
00:21:41.340Where when you yourself are stressed out, this is especially been seen with rats experimentally because I think review boards aren't letting this experiment be run on humans, but they found that if you stress out a rat or a mouse and then put another mouse in its cage, it will lash out at the other mouse and then actually feel better.
00:22:01.340And that's displaced aggression, taking it out on the world and I think it does help them feel better.
00:22:11.340I think that in an age of increased social isolation where people just actually aren't hanging out with other people, there aren't that many other people to take it out on.
00:22:22.340And so they just take it out on all of humanity, on all of the world, on capitalism, on the government, on.
00:22:30.680Well, I mean, I think that you can see this.
00:23:37.280And I'm like, because I choose to be, not just because it helps me and achieve a greater state in the end and it makes my life better to live this way.
00:23:46.980And it makes me look in a way foolish to other people.
00:23:50.560So keep in mind, I experience vulnerability because of my upbeat, peppy nature.
00:26:00.900And that's just going to destroy their excitement for reality.
00:26:06.500Because excitement for reality is something that can be destroyed.
00:26:12.100Now, some people allow themselves to destroy it to remove personal responsibility, as we pointed out.
00:26:17.180But another person can destroy this, a parent, etc., right?
00:26:20.800And it's hard to build back up after that unless you have role models, like, potentially we could act as an individual for, like, this is what it looks like to be foaming at the mouth about how much you love being alive.
00:26:32.540You know, like, that's really what they're saying in their little progressive hoity-toity world.
00:26:38.940Like, how is he so excited to care about this topic?
00:27:04.380I'm sure I make every mistake out there.
00:27:07.280No, you have some mistakes that you make that I try to work with you on.
00:27:12.500Like, you will underplay yourself, especially when-
00:27:15.440But I do, I guess, yeah, I mean, I love your enthusiasm so much that I guess it would be unlikely for me to dunk on it.
00:27:22.540Whereas I had other people who almost, and I'd say that there's a certain profile person, be very careful about creating a relationship with this type of person,
00:27:30.840who will automatically, if you are excited about something or bringing something to them with excitement, feel compelled to, like, shit on it.
00:27:53.960Yeah, it's such an easy hack to always being socially dominant.
00:27:56.820And so people can say, like, well, then how do you continue to, like, get by in life when you act like this and other people are acting like that?
00:28:07.000Well, one is that I think it's very hard.
00:28:08.980In the urban monoculture, nihilism is always the winning hand.
00:28:12.260Because the urban monoculture is built on this sort of negative utilitarian mindset and social bureaucratic dominance hacks.
00:28:19.400Which is, I think, part of why it's so, like, mentally negative.
00:28:22.440So I think, one, you're going to have trouble playing it in those communities.
00:28:25.480But when you are outside of the urban monoculture, so long as you continue to line in to optimism and excitement,
00:28:34.420you will grow a community of the types of people who are interacting with you and around you who also do that.
00:28:42.380And in addition to that, you will move up in the world faster because you will be able to set goals for yourself.
00:29:22.240Another really big issue is that when you define pain and suffering as a major problem, then every time you experience pain and suffering, which is all the time because it's a signal that our body uses to get us to move in certain directions, you're going to make it worse than it is, right?
00:29:40.640Like, the perception of pain is highly subjective.
00:29:45.620And typically, pain only hurts when you have decided it's a bad thing, right?
00:29:50.740Some people love being whipped, right?
00:30:06.980And I think that a big problem with seeing pain and suffering as a problem, and especially thinking about it a lot, is now you're making it painful, for sure.
00:30:21.040There's no way you can just kind of muddle through it, which is what most people have done throughout history.
00:30:47.000And this, I've experienced this in some small ways where I've had medical conditions that are very uncomfortable.
00:30:55.900And then I realize what it is, and then I get even more uncomfortable because I know what it is and how bad it is.
00:31:04.200Because I actually have a really high pain tolerance, right?
00:31:06.360But, like, the mental acknowledgement of a sensation as a problem and a serious problem, that contextualization is able to dial up pain levels from, like, a seven to a nine easily.