Based Camp - Nihilism is Philosophical Hedonism & We Are All Susceptible (Pessimism Protects You Psychologically)

00:00:00.000 Hello, Simone! Today is going to be an interesting and philosophical episode, but also focused on psychology and sort of best mental health practices for living.

00:00:10.040 I was listening to a podcast diving into the philosophy of Emile Chiron, who wrote Better Not to Have Been Born, the Romanian philosopher.

00:00:23.840 And he exhibited many traits that I think that all of us are susceptible to, which is the protective shell of doomerism, pessimism, and this feeling of suffering is what life is.

00:00:45.340 And I think that if we investigate this, we can understand why it feels so comfy to go to this place.

00:00:55.340 That's cool. I guess you can join up with us.

00:00:57.340 Antinatalist.

00:00:58.340 Yeah, we're gonna go to the graveyard and write poems about death and how pointless life is.

00:01:03.340 Thanks for offering to let me in your clique, guys. But to be honest, I'd rather be a crying little pussy than a faggy- 1.00

00:01:08.340 Antinatalist. 1.00

00:01:09.340 We'll see you, Stan.

00:01:11.340 He's right. I don't even know who I am anymore. I like liking life a lot more than hating it. Screw you guys. I'm going home.

00:01:20.340 Go ahead and go back to your sunshine fairy tale.

00:01:24.340 And just as a bit of a preview here, I think there are a few things at play. I think one is it removes some degree of responsibility for one's own failures or states, so there is less need for self-judgment or self-motivation.

00:01:40.340 Two is I believe that it looks chic, like it comes off-

00:01:45.340 It looks sophisticated.

00:01:47.340 Yes, it's sophisticated.

00:01:49.340 Three is it makes you much more difficult for other people to attack.

00:01:55.340 It's a very lazy position to hold, intellectually speaking, because when people attempt to attack you, you know, you're just like, yeah, you know, life is terrible.

00:02:05.340 You're like, you can't hurt me. Like, I'm at rock bottom. Where are you going to push me?

00:02:11.340 Exactly.

00:02:12.340 I found a video of some real Americans running across a far left voluntary human extinction rally.

00:02:18.340 Are these the Nazis?

00:02:20.340 No, Donna, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.

00:02:23.340 My first world life has involved some degree of suffering, and I didn't consent to being born.

00:02:29.340 It's not fair.

00:02:31.340 Fair? Who's the fucking nihilist around here, you bunch of fucking crybabies? 1.00

00:02:36.340 This guy's gonna hurt us, Walter? 1.00

00:02:37.340 No, Donny. These men are cowards. 1.00

00:02:39.340 I fuck you! Fuck you! 1.00

00:02:41.340 I fuck you! I'm sick! 1.00

00:02:44.340 I fuck you! 1.00

00:02:45.340 I fuck you! 1.00

00:02:46.340 I fuck you! 1.00

00:02:47.340 I fuck you! 1.00

00:02:48.340 I fuck you! 1.00

00:02:49.340 I fuck you! 1.00

00:02:50.340 Any Semite? 1.00

00:02:51.340 So let's go over all of these through the framing of this individual, alright?

00:02:56.340 So this individual is really important to antinatalist philosophy, where I study, you know, if our opponents have a philosophy, I make a point of studying their intellectual arguments as much as I could.

00:03:05.340 He did not have any particularly sophisticated or interesting intellectual arguments, but he had a very interesting life.

00:03:14.340 Was he just brushing on Buddhism?

00:03:15.340 Because I feel like, one, this is a very, very, very old meme.

00:03:18.340 The life is suffering meme is, like, extremely old.

00:03:21.340 So what are his novel arguments?

00:03:23.340 I don't remember.

00:03:24.340 No, it was something, like, just not interesting.

00:03:26.340 The other person I was studying today was C.S. Lewis, who was dumb for, like, way more interesting ways than this guy was dumb. 0.99

00:03:34.340 But we will do C.S. Lewis. 0.99

00:03:35.340 Shots fired with our audience if you're calling C.S. Lewis dumb. 0.99

00:03:39.340 Boy, oh boy. 1.00

00:03:40.340 I'm sorry, Simone.

00:03:41.340 I'm sorry.

00:03:42.340 He wasn't dumb.

00:03:43.340 The emails we're gonna get. 1.00

00:03:44.340 He was straight up being retarded. 1.00

00:03:47.340 Like, I was shocked at the stupidity of some of his arguments. 1.00

00:03:50.340 This C.S. Lewis rant was moved to the end of the episode. 1.00

00:03:53.340 If you want to see it, you can go there. 0.96

00:03:55.340 That said, I'm probably wrong to call him dumb. 0.94

00:03:58.340 It's more that he's very Malcolm Gladwell-y. 0.60

00:04:02.340 He mostly just aggregates other people's ideas and tells them in a way that is more accessible to the average person.

00:04:09.340 And when he has independent or new ideas, like the argument from desire, they're typically very, very bad.

00:04:15.340 He doesn't really interject any interesting new ideas to the conversation.

00:04:19.340 Okay?

00:04:20.340 So this guy did basically, he was maxing this particular perspective in a way that I think that we can all learn from because we all are drawn to this perspective.

00:04:30.340 One of the things he did is even though his book was famous, even though he was famous, he tried to never allow his book to win any awards.

00:04:40.340 So he'd withdraw from any awards that he could win.

00:04:42.340 He would put himself in environments that made him less likely to become more famous, specifically trying to hang out with other failures and be more of a failure, and specifically liked associating disproportionately with failures.

00:04:56.340 The line that he used is that he didn't hate misfortune.

00:05:03.340 He hated being surprised by it.

00:05:05.340 And I think that this is something that we all know to some extent.

00:05:11.340 In many ways, it feels safer to not even expose yourself to the potentiality of success, because having some goal and not achieving it can hurt more than never having had the goal in the first place.

00:05:28.340 However, you are never going to achieve any life of genuine satisfaction if you don't build goals for yourself and occasionally fail, or even predominantly fail.

00:05:40.340 I would say that a lot of successful people early in their careers predominantly failed before they reached that level of success.

00:05:49.340 Thoughts, Simone?

00:05:53.340 I think that's absolutely true.

00:05:55.340 When you describe that behavior, it just made me think that we're listening to the description of someone who's suffering from some fairly severe emotional problems.

00:06:06.340 I don't think so.

00:06:07.340 Because I think that that's an easy thing to say.

00:06:10.340 Oh, this person's suffering from depression.

00:06:12.340 Oh, this person is without realizing-

00:06:14.340 Well, it just seems like super avoidant behavior, maybe, that he's very anxious about recognition.

00:06:20.340 It's not, this is, I think, the mistake here, right?

00:06:23.340 And I think that this is one of the things that we need to look out for was in our modern culture, is the medicalization and the depersonalization of things that are very much individual choices.

00:06:35.340 And this was an individual choice that he made.

00:06:38.340 And the reason I'm saying that this is not a medical choice or something like that is because it's a choice that I feel calling to me, that you can feel calling to you, that I think any mentally healthy person feels sometimes it would be better if I never even tried.

00:06:57.340 It is easier to develop comfort with failure than it is to aspire to success.

00:07:04.340 The mere fact that it is easier and maybe leads to less suffering was in your life does not mean that you should pursue it.

00:07:12.340 The next thing here is I'd note to the, the chicness of pessimism and nihilism.

00:07:21.340 And I think part of the question is, is why is pessimism and nihilism chic?

00:07:26.340 You know, when I think of the classic nihilist, what I'm thinking of is the, you know, French beatnik in their, in their outfit, like being like, oh, nothing really matters.

00:07:35.340 Oh, you know, and it's even chic as it's, oh, you know, the sexy philosopher man troubled with his, oh, nothing matters.

00:07:45.340 Because, and I think that this is why it is sexy, right?

00:07:49.340 Shallow life.

00:07:51.340 Drowning alone, I gasp for air.

00:07:53.340 Coldness creeps over a pale skin. 0.95

00:07:55.340 There is sadness so deep, it pulls me down.

00:07:58.340 Happiness dies in the deep, dark sea.

00:08:01.340 Yeah, happiness dies.

00:08:04.340 Yeah.

00:08:06.340 Henrietta! Hi, sweetie! 0.95

00:08:08.340 Go away, Mom, leave me alone. 1.00

00:08:10.340 Daddy and I just got your birthday present!

00:08:13.340 But you can't see what it is till tomorrow.

00:08:16.340 You'd like to wait till I was dead, wouldn't you?

00:08:18.340 You'd like to see the magazine in my face.

00:08:20.340 You are so creative, honey. 1.00

00:08:22.340 Conformist, bitch. 1.00

00:08:24.340 Yeah. 0.99

00:08:26.340 Why it is alluring in high class, because if I'm looking at two people, and one person is like, hey, I genuinely believe that this stuff does matter, and I'm really excited about it.

00:08:39.340 And the other person is, oh, missing matters.

00:08:43.340 The person who wants things, who wants or is excited about something, has put themselves in any sort of interaction with this other person on the lower foot.

00:08:56.340 Kaylee Hooper, to what do I owe the pleasure?

00:08:58.340 Jack, pleasure is the name of a pony I hate.

00:09:02.340 This is business.

00:09:05.340 So, I just happened to bump into Jenna Maroney.

00:09:08.340 What did you do to her, Hooper? 1.00

00:09:09.340 Oh, her brain is like silly putty. 1.00

00:09:11.340 A toy I am too old for. 1.00

00:09:14.340 Kaylee Hooper, OMG!

00:09:17.340 It's Jenna!

00:09:18.340 You're wearing that belt as a joke, right?

00:09:21.340 Of course I am.

00:09:23.340 Where did you get your belt?

00:09:25.340 You're so cool.

00:09:26.340 Kaylee, you look so gorgeous today.

00:09:28.340 I'm wearing a headband because you are. 1.00

00:09:31.340 Pathetic. 0.99

00:09:32.340 Well, in general, enthusiasm, approbation, excitement, they open one up to vulnerability. 0.98

00:09:39.340 And to criticize those things implies that you have knowledge the other person doesn't, and that they are excited or optimistic or hopeful or trying out of ignorance. 0.62

00:09:51.340 And that the person who is pessimistic or who knows better or who understands that that brand is actually shit is just more informed and therefore better in the hierarchy of that social interaction. 0.73

00:10:04.340 That's such a great way. 0.70

00:10:05.340 So, if you're in a group of people and one person in the group of people comes up and they're like, I just found this really exciting new product or philosophy or idea.

00:10:16.340 And then another person in the group goes, oh, I know about that.

00:10:21.340 It's terrible.

00:10:23.340 And here is why.

00:10:25.340 Like, that person has asserted dominance over the person who just came up all excited about the idea.

00:10:32.340 And I can see why you would have a fear, like if you're building a profile, like a psychological profile to interact with the public, you are going to get a lot of dumb, easy hacks by taking this pessimistic approach. 0.75

00:10:48.340 In the same way that Simone mentioned, when she was younger, she used to dress in these ridiculous, kind of slutty, like neon tapita dresses, very punky hipster, because the people around her socially rewarded her for this. 0.79

00:11:02.340 As a, as a, you know, a young fertile girl, that's the way people are. 0.98

00:11:06.340 But, if a long term, maxing for that would have really hurt her.

00:11:13.340 And it's the same with this particular tactic.

00:11:16.340 In individual conversations, especially when you're young, you can socially cheese those situations by taking the nihilistic perspective.

00:11:25.340 And nihilism more than just general skepticism.

00:11:28.340 Well, and even if you, like, I think it can happen very subtly, where just, every time you take a more pessimistic or nihilistic or antinatalist perspective, you win the conversation.

00:11:40.340 Or you're seen as the more respectable person in the conversation.

00:11:43.340 Or more people kind of nod and agree with you looking thoughtful.

00:11:46.340 So, you might, you might, one, be subtly emotional and reinforced to do it, but also, you will be subtly signaled that it's correct, even if it isn't correct.

00:11:58.340 So, with this particular philosophy, this may help you understand just some of the quotes from him here.

00:12:05.340 Hmm.

00:12:06.340 I only write this kind of stuff because explaining it bores me terribly.

00:12:10.340 That's why I say, when I've written aphorisms, it's that I've sunk back into fatigue.

00:12:15.340 Why bother?

00:12:16.340 And so, the aphorism is scorned by, quote unquote, serious people.

00:12:20.340 The professors look down upon it.

00:12:22.340 When they read a book of aphorisms, they say,

00:12:25.340 Oh, look, what this fellow said 10 pages back.

00:12:30.340 Now he's saying something to the contrary.

00:12:32.340 He's not serious.

00:12:34.340 Me, I can put two aphorisms that are contradictory right next to each other.

00:12:39.340 Aphorisms are also momentary truths.

00:12:42.340 They are not decrees.

00:12:44.340 And I could tell you nearly every case why I wrote this or that phrase.

00:12:48.340 And when, it's always set in motion by an encounter, an incident, a fit of temper.

00:12:54.340 But, they all have a cause.

00:12:56.340 It's not all gratuitous.

00:12:58.340 Every bit of it.

00:13:00.340 Gratuitous?

00:13:01.340 Gratuitous.

00:13:02.340 Gratuitous.

00:13:03.340 But every bit of this is about avoiding responsibility for his decisions and attempting to essentially cheese a social fight.

00:13:12.340 You know, starting with the, oh, why do I do this?

00:13:15.340 Well, it bores me terribly is what he starts with.

00:13:18.340 Oh, I have fatigue.

00:13:20.340 Why bother?

00:13:21.340 You know, very much the nihilist was the cigarette, right?

00:13:27.340 And then he talks about, oh, how it's scorned by, quote unquote, serious people, right?

00:13:33.340 And they'll say that these two things contradict each other.

00:13:36.340 An actual problem if you're writing, like, ideas or philosophy.

00:13:39.340 He's like, but that doesn't matter.

00:13:40.340 I don't need to address that.

00:13:42.340 And then you see him attacking their character for pointing out that his work is internally inconsistent.

00:13:49.340 Or if you want to see other types of things that I think we all feel this way internally and drawn to this because it's such an easy way to frame ideas in our heads.

00:13:58.340 I invented nothing.

00:14:00.340 I invented nothing.

00:14:01.340 I've been the one and only secretary of my own sensations.

00:14:04.340 And these are just random quotes I'm pulling for this Wikipedia, but, like, you get the gist of, like, this guy thing, right?

00:14:10.340 And I think that we, I bring this up because I think that this is a huge part of antinatalist philosophy is it's a psychologically protective mechanism.

00:14:21.340 This, oh, life is suffering.

00:14:23.340 Suffering is everything.

00:14:25.340 Suffering is the only thing that matters.

00:14:27.340 Where I come to them and I don't even go, you know, oh, well, focus on all the good things.

00:14:32.340 I'm like, yeah, suffering exists.

00:14:34.340 It's what pushes us to improve.

00:14:36.340 Like, it doesn't matter as, like, an intrinsic thing.

00:14:40.340 It's just, like, what your ancestors sort of were coded based on an environment that has nothing to do with your modern environment to feel when facing specific stimuli in order to have the maximum number of surviving offspring.

00:14:52.340 It means nothing.

00:14:54.340 It is literally the most trivial thing you could base your life around.

00:14:58.340 And yet it is so easy when you don't have to think beyond it to coat yourself in this.

00:15:05.340 If life is suffering, then your responsibility, your failures are not your responsibility, which is an incredibly safe emotional place to be.

00:15:16.340 Yeah.

00:15:17.340 Look at that.

00:15:18.340 Another tortured soul.

00:15:19.340 Another life of pain.

00:15:20.340 What's the matter with you?

00:15:21.340 Well, my girlfriend broke up with me.

00:15:22.340 Sure does hurt.

00:15:23.340 That's cool.

00:15:24.340 I guess you can join us if you want.

00:15:25.340 Yeah, we're gonna go write poems about death and how pointless life is.

00:15:30.340 No, thanks.

00:15:31.340 I love life.

00:15:32.340 Huh?

00:15:33.340 But you just got dumped.

00:15:34.340 Well, yeah, and I'm sad.

00:15:35.340 But at the same time, I'm really happy that something can make me feel that sad.

00:15:38.340 It makes me feel human.

00:15:39.340 So I have to take the bad with the good.

00:15:40.340 So I guess what I'm feeling is like a beautiful sadness. 0.91

00:15:41.340 Well, thanks for offering to let me in your clit, guys. 1.00

00:15:42.340 But to be honest, I'd rather be a crying little pussy than a faggy goth kid. 1.00

00:15:45.340 Well, see you, Stan. 0.99

00:15:47.340 Note, we don't go into a lot about arguments against the philosophy of antinatalism in this episode or negative utilitarianism, because we have a whole lot of arguments.

00:16:00.340 We don't go into a lot about arguments against the philosophy of antinatalism in this episode or negative utilitarianism because we have a whole nother very long episode where we do that called These People Want You All Dead and are weirdly reasonable about it.

00:16:14.340 See the thumbnail here.

00:16:16.340 Yeah, it also, though, strikes me as one of the lower effort interpretations of this that I've heard, because the Buddhist conclusion of the life is suffering doesn't just mean give up on everything.

00:16:30.340 It means so learn how to not be attached to anything and then break the cycle, like commit permanent suicide and let yourself be released.

00:16:39.340 That's what you want to do, right?

00:16:41.340 But you want to make this decision on behalf of other people.

00:16:44.340 Yeah, but I mean, this just seems like uniquely low agency.

00:16:47.340 It's therefore I will not try for anything.

00:16:51.340 I mean, there's some of that behavior is in there, like this choice to not submit for any book awards or even be eligible for any is, I guess, akin to trying to avoid dukkah, like suffering resulting from attachment.

00:17:06.340 But.

00:17:07.340 But.

00:17:08.340 It just doesn't seem very proactive, and I wonder.

00:17:13.340 I wonder.

00:17:14.340 Well, I think that the point I'm making here is that we can very easily confuse psychologically protective mechanisms with a philosophy that is internally coherent and then build philosophy, actions, identity off of the psychological protective mechanisms.

00:17:38.340 These tools for hacking conversations, these tools for not pressing yourself to engage with reality, these tools for excusing your own failures and then attempting to use this as a foundation upon which you build an identity, a house and a worldview.

00:17:54.340 And this is really, really dangerous because any identity built on top of this is going to be an intrinsically toxic identity.

00:18:04.340 It's going to hurt the people around you.

00:18:07.340 And I think that this is really important to remember when you adapt this pessimistic and nihilistic mindset, it might help you in social situations, but everyone who hears you dress down that other person feels worse.

00:18:19.340 Everyone who had the person walk into the group excited to share their excitement with other people, and those other people could have gotten excited about that thing, whether it's life or whatever, and you came in and desired to kill that excitement.

00:18:34.340 You have made things worse for everyone.

00:18:38.340 You have hurt everyone around you.

00:18:41.340 Think about this was in our like marriage or was my kids, right?

00:18:44.340 Like if one of us is feeling down that day, we believe we have a philosophical and theological duty to not push that onto our kids, to not push that onto each other.

00:18:58.340 Because like, as I said, like when the episode about my mom dying, I was like, yeah, I might feel bad.

00:19:04.340 But like, if I go and I cry about this, like, who does that help?

00:19:07.340 That just hurts my kids.

00:19:08.340 That hurts my wife. 1.00

00:19:09.340 You know, I get to choose how I respond to this and I'm not going to choose that response to this.

00:19:15.340 And yet these individuals choose that response to everything because it's the trump card.

00:19:20.340 And this is what gets me about the ephilis and the antinatalists is they'll say things like, oh, I won't on a live, etc. 0.87

00:19:29.340 Because it could cause suffering to others.

00:19:32.340 It would cause suffering to all my friends and family, right?

00:19:35.340 And it's like, but your entire philosophical framework, your entire way of acting, the way that you communicate with these people is likely putting them in a state of constant suffering that is higher than any degree that could be caused by you not being here.

00:19:53.340 Yeah, you're doing them a net positive, probably.

00:19:56.340 What are you waiting for, huh?

00:19:59.340 What are you waiting for?

00:20:02.340 What are you waiting for?

00:20:05.340 What am I waiting for?

00:20:07.340 What am I waiting for?

00:20:09.340 What are you waiting for?

00:20:10.340 What are you waiting for? 1.00

00:20:11.340 Fuck you! 1.00

00:20:14.340 Oh my God. 1.00

00:20:18.340 Being around, you know, having, being friends with fat people, more likely to make you fat. 0.89

00:20:22.340 Being around depressed people.

00:20:23.340 I imagine your risk of being depressed is yourself higher.

00:20:26.340 Well, no, but it's not just that.

00:20:27.340 Their entire philosophy, when they share it, if you go to their subreddit, it's like the ephilism subreddit, it's just like pictures of like mutilated animals and like starving children.

00:20:36.340 What?

00:20:37.340 Because they're trying to show everyone, like, look at how bad the world is to maintain this constant state of despair when, if you are actually being realistic and looking at the numbers, you know we have the capacity to improve.

00:20:51.340 We have the capacity to improve the world.

00:20:52.340 You know, we have the capacity to improve technology.

00:20:55.340 And we are seeing this in all of the data.

00:20:58.340 Like we can make the world a better place.

00:21:00.340 And yes, because of fertility collapse, there is going to be a period where things get harder.

00:21:04.340 But we know from the technology that we've already built that we can achieve something better on the other side of that. 0.96

00:21:11.340 Yeah, there's there's this other element of the attitude that I kind of have a wondering about and I'm wondering what your thoughts are, you'll probably say it's dumb.

00:21:22.340 But it seems to me like nihilism and in general, this pessimistic attitude toward the world or what also manifests is like down with capitalism, they're all out to get us is a form of like a meta version of displaced aggression.

00:21:41.340 Where when you yourself are stressed out, this is especially been seen with rats experimentally because I think review boards aren't letting this experiment be run on humans, but they found that if you stress out a rat or a mouse and then put another mouse in its cage, it will lash out at the other mouse and then actually feel better.

00:22:01.340 And that's displaced aggression, taking it out on the world and I think it does help them feel better. 0.78

00:22:11.340 I think that in an age of increased social isolation where people just actually aren't hanging out with other people, there aren't that many other people to take it out on.

00:22:22.340 And so they just take it out on all of humanity, on all of the world, on capitalism, on the government, on.

00:22:30.680 Well, I mean, I think that you can see this.

00:22:32.820 Here's a quote.

00:22:33.260 I'm just reading like any quote I can find from this guy's Wikipedia.

00:22:35.900 This is him trying to compliment Bach.

00:22:38.040 OK, so he says that.

00:22:40.700 Oh, the composer.

00:22:42.300 Yes.

00:22:42.980 Without Bach, God would be a complete second rate figure.

00:22:46.500 Bach's music is the only argument proving the creation of the universe cannot be regarded as a complete failure.

00:22:54.520 But I mean, you talk about displaced aggression and it's just dripping with that. 0.93

00:22:58.920 And I think that if you go to the FLism subreddit or the Antinatalism subreddit, you see that displaced aggression.

00:23:06.280 But I think that it's important that like the reason I bring all this up is all of us are susceptible to this.

00:23:11.500 All of us shouldn't just be looking at the outsider and say, where are they terrible?

00:23:18.040 Where are they doing these things?

00:23:19.660 Haha, look at their community so toxic.

00:23:23.540 We need to be able to catch this as it bubbles up within ourselves so that and this is something that people always notice within me.

00:23:31.560 They're like, Malcolm, why are you always so excited?

00:23:34.840 Why are you always so high energy?

00:23:37.280 And I'm like, because I choose to be, not just because it helps me and achieve a greater state in the end and it makes my life better to live this way.

00:23:46.980 And it makes me look in a way foolish to other people.

00:23:50.560 So keep in mind, I experience vulnerability because of my upbeat, peppy nature.

00:23:55.820 100%.

00:23:56.300 People dunk on you all the time about it.

00:23:58.800 You just heard Taylor Lorenz and Julia Black dunk on you for this. 1.00

00:24:04.200 Oh yeah, they just did this thing, this episode on us and they're like, oh, you're so nerdy, so like weird.

00:24:09.900 So, you know.

00:24:10.740 No, she said you were foaming at the mouth about this subject.

00:24:15.180 Which is, I think that's a really great example of taking someone's enthusiasm. 0.83

00:24:20.900 And using that to assert dominance by talking about, by framing their subject of enthusiasm as not that important or dumb for some reason. 0.60

00:24:34.020 Yes.

00:24:34.660 But I still choose to do this.

00:24:36.900 Like, I act and experience the world this way in large part because I choose to.

00:24:43.200 I do it through framing devices.

00:24:45.140 Like, hey, how are you doing?

00:24:46.260 I start every conversation the same way.

00:24:48.000 Anyone who's seen me, they know, I give them a handshake.

00:24:50.820 I'm like, hey, it's so great to meet you or see you.

00:24:53.360 Because if I can start a conversation, high energy and positively, it's more likely to carry throughout the conversation.

00:25:00.180 And that positive energy doesn't just allow me to be more efficient, more effective, and more mentally healthy.

00:25:08.320 But it rubs off on everyone around me, including my family.

00:25:12.880 And this becomes astronomically more important when you do have a family.

00:25:17.400 And I'd actually say that this, in terms of who you might marry, is one of the most important things to filter for.

00:25:26.880 Anyone who attempts these sorts of things should be considered not a marriageable candidate or somebody you need to talk through.

00:25:34.640 Do you understand what you're doing and that I cannot have a long-term relationship?

00:25:38.520 Like, you can work with them on it.

00:25:40.180 But, like, if they approach social competition in this dismissive way, you and your kids will pay for this.

00:25:49.420 Your kid will come home one day so excited about some new thing they learned.

00:25:54.140 And their mom or dad is going to be like, well, it's really not that impressive, is it?

00:25:59.360 That's not that interesting, is it?

00:26:00.900 And that's just going to destroy their excitement for reality.

00:26:06.500 Because excitement for reality is something that can be destroyed.

00:26:12.100 Now, some people allow themselves to destroy it to remove personal responsibility, as we pointed out.

00:26:17.180 But another person can destroy this, a parent, etc., right?

00:26:20.800 And it's hard to build back up after that unless you have role models, like, potentially we could act as an individual for, like, this is what it looks like to be foaming at the mouth about how much you love being alive.

00:26:32.540 You know, like, that's really what they're saying in their little progressive hoity-toity world.

00:26:38.940 Like, how is he so excited to care about this topic?

00:26:43.580 Yeah, yeah, in such a put-down-y way.

00:26:47.620 It's, but, yeah, no, it's low energy.

00:26:52.900 I actually note here, to people who watch this podcast, you'll note that Simone never undermines me in this way.

00:27:03.360 Do I not?

00:27:04.380 I'm sure I make every mistake out there.

00:27:07.280 No, you have some mistakes that you make that I try to work with you on.

00:27:12.500 Like, you will underplay yourself, especially when-

00:27:15.440 But I do, I guess, yeah, I mean, I love your enthusiasm so much that I guess it would be unlikely for me to dunk on it.

00:27:22.540 Whereas I had other people who almost, and I'd say that there's a certain profile person, be very careful about creating a relationship with this type of person, 0.84

00:27:30.840 who will automatically, if you are excited about something or bringing something to them with excitement, feel compelled to, like, shit on it. 0.94

00:27:41.840 Yeah. 0.99

00:27:42.580 We know people like that.

00:27:43.860 I'm sure you know people like that.

00:27:46.460 Anyone listening to this, for sure.

00:27:50.320 You're so pervasive.

00:27:51.800 Because it's such an easy hack.

00:27:53.960 Yeah, it's such an easy hack to always being socially dominant.

00:27:56.820 And so people can say, like, well, then how do you continue to, like, get by in life when you act like this and other people are acting like that?

00:28:07.000 Well, one is that I think it's very hard.

00:28:08.980 In the urban monoculture, nihilism is always the winning hand.

00:28:12.260 Because the urban monoculture is built on this sort of negative utilitarian mindset and social bureaucratic dominance hacks.

00:28:19.400 Which is, I think, part of why it's so, like, mentally negative.

00:28:22.440 So I think, one, you're going to have trouble playing it in those communities.

00:28:25.480 But when you are outside of the urban monoculture, so long as you continue to line in to optimism and excitement,

00:28:34.420 you will grow a community of the types of people who are interacting with you and around you who also do that.

00:28:42.380 And in addition to that, you will move up in the world faster because you will be able to set goals for yourself.

00:28:52.600 Because you will take responsibility.

00:28:54.740 And that's the ultimate thing here is how much can you sit with?

00:28:57.640 Like, these individuals act like they sit with so much pain.

00:29:00.080 And they objectively do sit with so much pain because they're unwilling to hold any of it.

00:29:04.920 Like, if you just pick up that responsibility, the pain of responsibility of saying where I am in life right now is my responsibility.

00:29:13.100 No one else is going to get me out of here.

00:29:15.180 I need to move to the next stage instead of just saying life is terrible.

00:29:19.640 What are your thoughts?

00:29:20.680 Suddenly, brain shorted.

00:29:22.240 Another really big issue is that when you define pain and suffering as a major problem, then every time you experience pain and suffering, which is all the time because it's a signal that our body uses to get us to move in certain directions, you're going to make it worse than it is, right?

00:29:40.640 Like, the perception of pain is highly subjective.

00:29:45.620 And typically, pain only hurts when you have decided it's a bad thing, right?

00:29:50.740 Some people love being whipped, right?

00:29:53.640 It's kind of their thing.

00:29:55.460 The best pleasure they can imagine.

00:29:58.560 Whipping in other contexts, probably the worst, most painful and humiliating thing you will ever experience in your life, right?

00:30:04.680 And it all comes down to context.

00:30:06.980 And I think that a big problem with seeing pain and suffering as a problem, and especially thinking about it a lot, is now you're making it painful, for sure.

00:30:21.040 There's no way you can just kind of muddle through it, which is what most people have done throughout history.

00:30:25.840 I mean, signals are important.

00:30:27.380 You need to hear them.

00:30:28.120 You need to be aware of them.

00:30:29.020 And you need to try to address them.

00:30:31.080 But you also shouldn't.

00:30:32.300 The signal's not the feature.

00:30:33.560 People don't, like, worship red lights because they tell you to stop, okay?

00:30:37.560 So, one, you recognize that it's a problem.

00:30:40.680 And now it's like, oh, it's a big deal.

00:30:41.780 And then because you think about it constantly, you're heightening it.

00:30:44.920 You're turning up the volume.

00:30:47.000 And this, I've experienced this in some small ways where I've had medical conditions that are very uncomfortable.

00:30:55.900 And then I realize what it is, and then I get even more uncomfortable because I know what it is and how bad it is.

00:31:04.200 Because I actually have a really high pain tolerance, right?

00:31:06.360 But, like, the mental acknowledgement of a sensation as a problem and a serious problem, that contextualization is able to dial up pain levels from, like, a seven to a nine easily.

00:31:22.900 And certainly more than that.

00:31:25.260 And, yeah.

00:31:27.220 I guess what I'll end with is we all know these types of people.

00:31:31.760 And because of that, rather than looking at them as a signal of derision, we should search for this in ourselves.

00:31:38.160 I will give another quote by him.

00:31:40.220 And we've got to put the scene of the goth kids from South Park in here doing their poetry.

00:31:45.540 Shallow life.

00:31:47.120 Drowning alone, I gasp for air.

00:31:49.480 Coldness creeps over a pale skin. 0.95

00:31:51.040 I am simply an accident.

00:31:52.280 Why take it all so seriously?

00:31:54.840 Which is such a removal.

00:31:57.000 Everything about this philosophy is about removing personal responsibility.

00:32:01.180 It is the lowest effort philosophy and world perspective conceivably possible.

00:32:07.040 You know what, though?

00:32:08.360 What actually got me away from this attitude?

00:32:10.560 Yeah.

00:32:10.840 Did you ever have a phase like this?

00:32:12.440 I had, like, 100% had a phase like this.

00:32:15.080 Huge.

00:32:15.800 Yeah.

00:32:16.060 Was that people fully observed, acknowledged, and described that phase to me.

00:32:22.780 Like, they saw it in me.

00:32:24.020 They acknowledged me.

00:32:25.340 And they were like, yeah, basic.

00:32:27.580 This is very embarrassing for you.

00:32:29.820 Like, please let me help you.

00:32:31.760 This is a bad look.

00:32:32.900 You don't look sophisticated.

00:32:34.100 You don't look smart.

00:32:35.320 No one's going to like this. 0.95

00:32:37.480 You are being so boring right now.

00:32:39.880 Just take and try again.

00:32:42.240 Try a different approach.

00:32:43.680 Yeah.

00:32:44.180 No, but, like, that is 100% what happened. 0.92

00:32:47.820 And it was actually in relation to this really stupid middle school project where you had 0.93

00:32:52.080 to, like, write this whole report on your life and who you were. 0.95

00:32:55.040 And that's why I got the critique.

00:32:58.000 And basically, I turned in my rough draft and was like, life is suffering.

00:33:01.440 I don't even know it.

00:33:02.880 I'm not very important.

00:33:04.180 I'm just a...

00:33:05.180 It sounded like this guy.

00:33:06.840 Like, you're reading that to me, and I'm like, it's taking me back. 0.98

00:33:09.820 But they read my draft, and they were like, bitch, you need to rewrite this. 1.00

00:33:14.120 I can't. 0.99

00:33:14.320 I'm not accepting this.

00:33:15.380 You're not going to pass if you submit this. 1.00

00:33:17.840 This is shit. 1.00

00:33:18.580 This is basic. 1.00

00:33:19.420 This is boring.

00:33:20.140 It's depressing.

00:33:21.720 Try again.

00:33:22.760 And I'm like, it's my identity.

00:33:23.900 And they're like...

00:33:25.620 To get a better identity.

00:33:27.360 No, really.

00:33:28.060 And I actually think that that is the light that fights this.

00:33:31.140 Yeah.

00:33:31.380 You have enthusiasm for life and individuals who lack that.

00:33:36.220 No, but I think that even just showing to the people who do this that in the end, it 0.90

00:33:41.580 actually makes them look super dumb and not sophisticated and basic, because that's what 0.79

00:33:45.160 worked on me. 0.98

00:33:46.220 Okay?

00:33:46.600 This was the vulnerable, trying to fit in teenage me who was driven to this in the first place.

00:33:51.600 And the argument that worked for me was, no, this isn't the sophisticated thing that you

00:33:57.060 think it is.

00:33:57.640 This makes you look really bad.

00:34:00.220 So I think that that...

00:34:02.240 I'm just pointing out that you kind of have to use...

00:34:04.820 You have to argue on their own terms, at least subconsciously.

00:34:08.200 And if subconsciously they're doing this to look sophisticated, you need to explain the

00:34:13.600 lack of...

00:34:14.340 Ultimately, the lack of sophistication it demonstrates.

00:34:17.100 I agree 100%.

00:34:18.000 Well, I love you to death, Simone.

00:34:19.560 Now, we'll add the little bit where I'm ranting about C.S.

00:34:21.820 Lewis.

00:34:22.420 We'll have a whole other episode because a lot of his philosophy...

00:34:25.640 And this is the thing.

00:34:26.840 C.S.

00:34:27.440 Lewis is a very interesting counter to this guy because he has none of the problems this

00:34:32.840 guy has.

00:34:34.040 But where he looks for meaning is to essentially outsource it.

00:34:39.260 And in a way that is very, I'd say, almost equally philosophically lazy.

00:34:44.020 And...

00:34:45.020 Remember how you did that episode on how Christmas was not actually pagan and you were defenestrated

00:34:51.180 for it?

00:34:51.640 So many people got mad at me because they didn't...

00:34:53.780 This is more than that.

00:34:56.060 You don't understand how much people love C.S.

00:34:58.240 Lewis.

00:34:58.660 This is pagan Christmas all over again. 1.00

00:35:02.000 I'm already developing hives.

00:35:03.680 I'm not ready for this.

00:35:05.280 You're not ready for me to do...

00:35:06.480 I might not do a full episode on why I...

00:35:09.400 Actually, what I'm thinking about doing is building a character into the game, which

00:35:14.040 is pro...

00:35:14.580 So the way that I do things in the game is...

00:35:17.420 The game is philosophical battle after philosophical battle.

00:35:21.900 And one of the things that gets me about C.S.

00:35:23.780 Lewis's work, which really contracts in the way that I try to do art, is if you play the

00:35:28.060 game, our philosophical perspective is always intentionally represented in the most monstrous

00:35:35.660 way conceivable, whereas the more antithetical to us a philosophical perspective is, the

00:35:42.200 more generous to that perspective we are.

00:35:45.420 Because that's how I think through things, right?

00:35:47.420 Like, I don't want to create a straw man that I can just bash.

00:35:51.360 I want to make my side the straw man in the fictional universe and their side be the strong

00:35:57.260 side so that I get something that's more interesting to engage with.

00:36:01.320 So I think it'd be fun for me to build out his perspective and build it into sort of a

00:36:09.780 wider philosophical framing within the Catholic faction.

00:36:16.200 I'd find that to be pretty interesting because that's what it really gels well with.

00:36:21.420 But yeah, that's another thing I don't like about his work.

00:36:23.860 His work, like, really straw man's the other side of his arguments.

00:36:27.600 And we'll get to that if we do a video on it.

00:36:28.940 Like you're above that?

00:36:30.380 No, I do.

00:36:33.140 Okay, I will admit I do straw man occasionally, but I at least like internally when I'm trying

00:36:39.060 to think through things, I do try to steel man them.

00:36:41.760 I don't always straw man, but yeah.

00:36:44.700 Okay.

00:36:45.780 Well.

00:36:46.680 Hey, even when I was looking at his thing, I was like, you're like, is that really what

00:36:50.000 he argued?

00:36:50.440 And I go, okay, I'm going to pull up.

00:36:51.720 No, no, no.

00:36:52.220 You, you, yeah.

00:36:52.940 You don't straw man behind closed doors because you actually want to win the argument.

00:37:01.020 And you know that if you don't, if you don't steel man on the other side, you're going to

00:37:04.180 lose the argument.

00:37:04.780 So your, your focus on winning, um, actually does prevent, it's, it's really more just

00:37:09.740 publicly.

00:37:10.140 You like to straw man.

00:37:11.140 Cause I think you make, you think that it makes for better entertainment.

00:37:15.120 Yeah.

00:37:15.500 I do it when I'm doing like entertainment content rather than actual philosophy content, which

00:37:19.340 is part of our content.

00:37:20.400 Yeah.

00:37:21.360 Oh, 100%.

00:37:22.480 So yeah, you'll have plenty more terrifying things to say about him.

00:37:28.080 What are we doing for, uh, Oh, I, I know the way that you make CS Lewis work, and we'll

00:37:33.960 get to this in the episode we do on him is you need to not think about his arguments logically

00:37:38.620 and think about them aesthetically.

00:37:40.940 And then it all works.

00:37:42.380 You need to approach his morality by saying, does this have an aesthetic truth to it rather

00:37:50.360 than a logical truth to it?

00:37:52.000 And as soon as you abandon causal logic, his entire philosophy is quite beautiful.

00:37:58.160 It just doesn't really gel with causal logic.

00:38:01.840 Okay.

00:38:02.740 That makes sense.

00:38:04.140 The people that I know who really like CS Lewis are very, in a contemporary term, vibes based.

00:38:12.700 They're very, yes, vibes based arguments, and they're very good and beautiful vibes based

00:38:18.040 arguments, but you cannot leave the vibe zone.

00:38:20.360 It's the, it's about the aesthetic feelings and general sentiment and impressions that

00:38:27.120 you're left with.

00:38:27.740 Yeah.

00:38:27.980 Okay.

00:38:28.620 I was going to make you gochujang chicken with steamed rice. 0.95

00:38:33.560 From scratch or reheat some?

00:38:35.140 Reheat.

00:38:35.600 We don't have any fresh chicken.

00:38:37.340 No, I was hoping you'd reheat some.

00:38:39.220 Awesome.

00:38:39.900 Very excited.

00:38:41.060 And I'll have that with some rice.

00:38:44.000 I love you.

00:38:45.280 I'm glad you're home.

00:38:47.000 I'm glad to be home.

00:38:48.640 He's right.

00:38:49.700 I don't even know who I am anymore.

00:38:51.500 I like liking life a lot more than hating it. 0.99

00:38:53.780 Screw you guys. 0.99

00:38:54.560 I'm going home. 0.99

00:38:57.600 Go ahead and go back to your sunshine fairy tale.

00:39:01.100 Aren't you still wallowing in pain?

00:39:02.880 I just realized that there's going to be a lot of painful times in life, so I better

00:39:06.120 learn to deal with it the right way.

00:39:09.240 Hey, Wendy. 1.00

00:39:11.400 You're a bitch. 1.00

00:39:12.920 Token, right here, buddy. 1.00

00:39:17.840 Sorry.

00:39:18.360 Okay.

00:39:18.640 If we're going to go on a tangent here.

00:39:20.480 If we're going to go on a tangent here.

00:39:21.940 C.S. Lewis, literally, his argument for God, and he thought this was a good argument and

00:39:28.700 other people have repeated it.

00:39:31.820 I am saying this as somebody who believes in God, okay, is that humans have this desire

00:39:40.680 desire for something beyond our world, something greater than this world, and that desire is

00:39:49.420 proof that that thing exists.

00:39:53.480 Oh, my God.

00:39:54.180 It's like your mom when she wanted you to make more money, and she's like, go to your boss

00:40:00.040 and say, I want more money.

00:40:01.600 She's like, just manifest it.

00:40:02.960 Yeah.

00:40:03.280 No, this is literally like, I'm like, well, a lot of guys want cat girl girlfriends, okay?

00:40:10.060 You got your Elons, and you're all that. 0.99

00:40:12.340 That means they must exist somewhere.

00:40:15.660 Maybe they exist in heaven, and C.S. Lewis says heaven.

00:40:18.980 Or consider something like a Tolkien-esque fantasy world with elves and orcs and knights

00:40:24.480 and magic.

00:40:25.680 So many people all over the world independently yearn for a life in a very, you could almost

00:40:31.840 say, eerily similar type of alternate universe.

00:40:35.260 Is that at all evidence that that alternate universe exists?

00:40:38.740 Or is it evidence that popular books propose that it exists, and many people are familiar

00:40:43.960 with those books?

00:40:44.720 The mere fact that a lot of people can imagine and want something and seem to come to this

00:40:50.360 position separated from each other means that that thing exists somewhere. 0.94

00:40:55.380 I'm sorry, but people can understand how astronomically stupid that point is, right? 0.85

00:41:01.320 Sorry, I'm just flabbergasted by it. 0.96

00:41:03.380 Sometimes I come across an argument, and I'm like, what?

00:41:05.460 That's pretty bad.

00:41:07.520 If that is actually his argument, maybe we're missing something.

00:41:12.020 Hold on, I'm going to ask an AI this, okay?

00:41:13.880 So let me give you this to the end of the episode.

00:41:15.840 So I'm going to go to Klaut, okay?

00:41:19.280 Tell me if you think this is a fair phrasing, given what I've said here.

00:41:22.060 Did C.S. Lewis argue that proof that heaven exists was that people wanted something beyond

00:41:27.760 this world, and that they would only want that if something beyond this world and bigger

00:41:32.800 existed.

00:41:33.260 That's basically what I said, right?

00:41:34.880 So I'm putting this into Klaut. 0.95

00:41:37.100 Yes, it says, C.S. Lewis made this argument in several works, most notably in Mere Christianity

00:41:42.940 and his essay, The Weight of Glory.

00:41:45.620 However, you're slightly paraphrasing the actual argument, which is known as the argument from

00:41:49.960 desire or argument from joy.

00:41:51.780 He reasoned that, one, humans have natural desires that correspond to real-life satisfactions,

00:41:57.400 hunger for food, thirst for water, sexual desire for sex. 0.59

00:42:00.640 Two, humans also experience a longing for something that nothing in this world can satisfy, what

00:42:06.540 he calls joy or a sin shot.

00:42:09.360 Three, if this desire exists, Lewis argued, it likely points to something real that can

00:42:14.500 satisfy it, just as our natural desires point to real satisfaction.

00:42:18.840 Wow, so like hunger indicates the existence of food, thirst indicates the existence of

00:42:23.940 water, and therefore desire for meaning indicates the existence of God?

00:42:29.540 Yes.

00:42:30.480 Now, I note here, for those who are confused as to why you feel hunger or arousal or things

00:42:35.380 like that, it's because your ancestors who had these desires or emotions in response to

00:42:40.040 specific environmental stimuli had more surviving offspring, either because they had more sex or

00:42:43.720 they got more food or anything like that.

00:42:45.580 Hunger isn't unique to humans.

00:42:47.180 I mean, I don't even C.S. Lewis would argue that like dogs don't feel hunger, worms feel

00:42:52.860 hunger, everything that has a degree of a nervous system in the same evolutionary pathway as us

00:42:58.840 feels hunger, like cows obviously feel hunger.

00:43:02.440 What?

00:43:03.180 Even if a desire for more than what we have in this world or something like heaven was evidence

00:43:09.640 that something like heaven existed, the evidence for something like heaven existing would not

00:43:14.240 be the same mechanism of action for the evidence of hunger to food or arousal to sex, because those

00:43:19.760 things were driven by evolutionary pressures and the, in all animals, in all insects even,

00:43:25.580 whereas the desire for like heaven would have been driven by some completely different pathway,

00:43:30.420 like God implanting it in us.

00:43:32.020 Lewis wrote, quote,

00:43:33.040 If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable

00:43:39.000 explanation is that I was made for another world, end quote.

00:43:43.120 Of course, here I'd say, quote,

00:43:44.600 If I find myself a desire for catgirl girlfriends and anime waifus, that must insinuate that those

00:43:53.320 worlds are real.

00:43:54.540 It's just absurd at face value.

00:43:58.500 It's on a scale of one to aggressively hopeful.

00:44:03.920 I would put it on the aggressively hopeful end.

00:44:06.960 Is it logical to you?

00:44:08.760 Is it an argument that would be persuasive to anyone?

00:44:12.820 This would not persuade me.

00:44:15.760 Okay.

00:44:16.780 Anyone.

00:44:18.980 Like you can model other humans, right?

00:44:21.320 You are aware how like the human brain works.

00:44:23.500 Would this persuade anyone?

00:44:24.620 I would not use this argument if attempting to convince someone else.

00:44:28.820 Okay.

00:44:29.460 Point.

00:44:30.100 Now, back to the main story here.

00:44:32.700 Good for you.

00:44:35.640 Dow is down 800 points today.

00:44:38.900 The S&P always seems a bit more resistant.

00:44:40.760 Okay.

00:44:40.920 Anyway.

00:44:41.360 Do you remember when on the radio people used to just say that?

00:44:45.500 The S&P 500 is up this and the Dow is down blah, blah, blah.

00:44:48.680 And like they...

00:44:49.920 It was like a thing.

00:44:51.360 Why did we need to know that?

00:44:53.500 Who was day trading?

00:44:54.500 We needed to know that because we couldn't like...

00:44:56.900 No, but this was back when like you couldn't like Google it, I think.

00:45:00.460 Or maybe newspapers would say it.

00:45:02.720 Yes.

00:45:03.200 I mean, when we first heard this on the radio as really young kids, it was before internet

00:45:07.460 was available on the...

00:45:08.500 Young people today don't know that they would like start radio shows with this information.

00:45:12.400 Like, of course you need to know.

Based Camp - March 21, 2025

Nihilism is Philosophical Hedonism & We Are All Susceptible (Pessimism Protects You Psychologically)

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