Normies Are Realizing Marriage is Cool (Uh Oh!)
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Summary
In this episode, we re going over the surprising increase in traditional marriages and why they might be beneficial to people, contrasting with the Red Pill ethos that says no marriage is always bad, it s just a trap for the man.
Transcript
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radical monogamy monogamy but like i'm not a square or anything yeah i love the concept of
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like marriage have you thought of it oh i don't know i don't want to get that dirty yeah i have
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a husband who i serve food for oh my gosh oh my gosh and i'm gonna get pregnant we're legally
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bound to each other what is this the omega verse this is kinky oh god no it's really come to that
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though would you like to know more hello simone i'm excited to be here with you today today we are
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going to be going over the surprising increase in traditional marriages and traditional marriage
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structures and why they might be beneficial to people contrasting with the red pill ethos that
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we'll go into as well in this where you get somebody who says no marriage is always bad it
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is just a trap for the man it is just bad for the man which i'm sure you've heard a hundred times
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on red pill sites okay how do you define traditional marriage and this is well you'll understand from
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the statistics that we're going over because we're going to be going over a lot of statistics in this
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episode and we're going to be doing it through the eyes of a piece by brad wilcox in the atlantic
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called why marriage survives nice brad wilcox okay let's do it i'm excited you're acting like we
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know him do we know him we've met him a couple times at events oh wow he's a perennatalist yeah
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he's all about marriage his his angle in the perennatalist movement is i'm the marriage guy
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so it would make sense that he's sorry by the way brad if you i met you i'm just terrible with zanes
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so if i met you again i'd be like oh you're that guy you know but sorry anyway so i'm gonna dive right
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in and i've cut out all of the fluff from this and so we're just gonna go like stats heavy okay
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awesome first the decline in the divorce rate was accelerating since the early 1980s the divorce
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rate had now fallen by almost 40 and about half that decline happened in just the past 15 years
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so i'm gonna read that again first the decline in the divorce rate is accelerating so fewer people
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are getting divorced and it's happening at an even faster rate as time goes on but don't you think
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that's also a product of there being far fewer marriages we'll get to that okay since since the
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1980s the divorce rate has fallen by 40 so when people oh wow since the 1980s it's fallen by 40
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and half that decline has happened in just the last 15 years unless otherwise noted all figures in this
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article are the result of my analysis of national data the idea that marriage will end in failure
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half the time or more was entrenched in american minds is out of date the proportion of forced
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marriages expected to end in divorce has fallen to about 40 in recent years so number of divorces
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are falling but still i mean 40 for first marriage people and i love it when people come to you will
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be like that's my odds of getting divorced if i get into a marriage i'm like no it's not like you know
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dumb people get married too like thoughtless people get married too people get drunk and get married in
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like these people who are ending up like you you influence the odds that your marriage will end in
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divorce by how much thought you put into that marriage when you went into it it is not a staple
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40 for every individual if you go to me and you said bet on these marriages ending in divorce and i was
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given information on both people and how they vetted each other and i place bets based on logic and then
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another person pays bets on a just a 40 number i would own that person i would just completely come
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away with all the money because it isn't a blanket 40 it is a 40 conditional on the circumstances that
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you were in when you got married second yeah i'm actually i'm going to see if i can find prediction
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markets for divorce because i bet that there are i wonder if there's a prediction market for our divorce
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i know there is for having the number of kids we have market on the number of kids we'll have but
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second non-marital childbearing after almost half a century of increase stalled out in 2009 at 41
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down to 40 over the last few years so basically for a long time the amount of kids born out of wedlock
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was increasing and it stalled out about 15 years ago and and it's been slow very slowly going down
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um for children less divorce and a small decline in childbearing outside of wedlock
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means more stability after falling for more than 40 years beginning in the 1960s the share of children
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living in married families bottomed out at 64 in 2012 before rising to 66 in 2024 according to the
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census bureau current population survey and the share of children raised in an intact married family for the
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duration of their childhoods has climbed from a low point of 52 in 2014 to 54 in 2024 so just to to go
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over the bigger number there after falling for more than 40 years beginning in the late 1960s
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the share of children living in married families bottomed out in 2012 so basically we saw this long
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period of decline and then a bottoming out um with things beginning to potentially turn around now
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third shift may now be underway as well although it is much less established in the first two the rate
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of new marriages among prime aged adult which hit its nadir during the pandemic has risen in each of
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the three years of data since 2020 so again this is the rate of new marriages in prime age adults
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which in 2023 the most recent year available it was higher than any year since 2008 at least some of
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this increase is a post-pandemic bounce but the share of all prime aged adults who are married
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has also leveled off in the past few years that that this the decades-long decline in the proportion of
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americans who are married may have reached its low point some of these shifts are modest
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kunst was surely right that couples and families in the u.s will continue to live in a variety of
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arrangements in particular caution is warranted as to the number of new marriages it is quite possible
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that the longer trend towards fewer people marrying will reassert itself but as a likely success story for those who
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do wed and as an anchor for the american family life a marriage looks like it's coming back
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stable marriage is a norm again and the way that most people rear the rising generation
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the writing is very difficult to read here uses the grammatical structures i wouldn't expect but anyway
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i'm gonna put some graphs on screen here you get fewer divorces so as you can see here you have this
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sharp increase in divorces from the 1960s to like 1976 because boomers are just the worst
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generation in human history we actually did an episode on that i thought it was a little mean so
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i haven't posted it but then the number just goes down down down down down to the point where if you
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look at in 2023 the number of divorces is about the same as the number of divorces in the early 1960s
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so we're going you know back to 1950s levels of divorce if we continue down at the rate that we've
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been going down i'd say for another five years we'll be back to the 1960 level that's exciting
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let's see we can get to the 1950 level yeah kids growing up in married two parents homes this has
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been going down since the 1970s at least so at the beginning of this graph it's going down and then you
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see it reach sort of its bottom at around 2015 and it's gone up slightly since then okay
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encouraging so what you're seeing there is is this is a trend that's bouncing back as well
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a little bit a little bit maybe we fit a floor the harvard anthropologist joseph heirich has observed
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that marriage represents the keystone institution for most though not all societies and may be the
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most primeval of human institutions on every continent in every era in more patriarchal societies
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and in more egalitarian ones it has governed family relationships as an institution it seems to
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build on the evolutionary psychology of both men and women writes nicholas christus a sociologist
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at yale which is to exchange love for support but as we've known because love is not a real emotion
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and when i did this episode and so many people were like oh this show is that like you guys are
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sociopaths or something people were pointing out actually if you look at the definitions of love
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given by most like well-considered people like say c.s lewis he would also tacitly in his definition
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of love argues that love is not a real emotion it's a choice or rather like a pledge to somebody
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so this is saying like a pledge of mutual dedication in exchange for a pledge of mutual dedication i mean
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i guess that that's you know whatever by the way if you do think love is a real emotion you should
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watch that episode we come to it with a lot of evidence it is almost certainly a thing that people
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are just pretending maybe some like minority ethnic groups have it as an emotional state but it doesn't
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appear to be common within most of the population and most people like like entire civilizations
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existed without a word for it and and we have their writings on what a married couple feels for
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each other when they're very close to what i feel for my wife so we know that like when you don't get
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this myth people don't don't fall for it but what i'm noting here is it's here you have both people
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at like harvard and yale so like mainstream progressive institutions being like marriage is the bedrock of
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all human culture and society you might have multiple marriages but like i.e a man might marry
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multiple women but in as far as i'm aware in every successful civilization in human history marriage has
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existed as a concept um here i'm not i'm not isolating it to monogamous marriage but marriage
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more generally i.e exclusive females to males and they dedicate themselves to that male i'm not aware of a
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single successful civilization in human history that didn't have this i'm aware of like some some a few
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tribes here and there yeah but it seems like once you scale marriage as an institution emerges
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i wouldn't say that it emerges it's that groups that don't adopt it do not appear to be able to scale
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that that's what this would imply to me so you know important one and then dot dot dot here because
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he goes off about something else that you guys are going to care about and i want to get back to the
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statistics and the interesting stuff one notable example is family care most marriages in the united
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states today are not throwbacks to the 50s when it comes to domestic responsibilities husbands are more
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willing to lean in the amount of time that american fathers spend on child care increased from 2.5
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hours per week in 1965 to 9 hours in 2024 2.5 to 9 hours between 1965 and 2024 according to pew and
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the american time use survey over the same time period the share of time spent on child by dads rose from
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25 to 62 of what moms provided which is you know crazy this is this is you know obviously well over
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well not just doubling here this is like um i'm not gonna do the math in my head but but it's it's it's a lot
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it's a lot of an increase also you spend so much more time with our kids than that which is yeah
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and i know here the part i took out here is he was going on one of these but you know marriage in the
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1950s was bad and the patriarchy or something and i was like yeah whatever my audience doesn't care
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but that is actually interesting the way that marriage norms are changing yeah and then he points
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out here indeed one of the reasons the united states birth rate may be higher than those of east
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asian countries such as japan and south korea where the fertility rate has fallen to 1.15 and 0.75
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babies born per woman respectively well below the us of 1.6 and note that these these aren't the only
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good examples of this if you look at like italy italy had a fertility rate of like 1.18 is that men in
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those countries do much less child care and household labor than men in the us even as women around the
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world embrace the egalitarian frontier in the words of social scientist alice evans men in some
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cultures have maintained their old habits as a result evans writes the sexes drift apart this
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may help explain why south korea has seen marriages tank and its fertility rate fall to the lowest in
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the world there's actually a great study on this by aria babu that looked at perceptions of a woman's
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role in a marriage and the more a country thought that a woman's role this was was in europe was
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basically to stay at home and raise kids the lower their fertility rate was and this is why despite
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southern europe being less wealthy than northern europe which usually leads to a higher fertility rate
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northern europe has a much better fertility rate than southern europe also consider latin america
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versus the united states for example latin america is having an absolute fertility bomb right now i
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think very very quick fertility collapse compared to the united states i think very shortly already over
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half of the countries in latin america have a below the united states tfr and i think very shortly
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we're going to see latin america more more broadly fall below the united states and i think that in the
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future when people are talking about i am projecting 10 years out when people are talking about fertility
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rate panic latin america is going to be one of the core places they talk about because it's been one
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of the fastest declines we've seen anywhere in the world when you control for income and and they are
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not as gender egalitarian as the united states if you if you look at east asia you know people can be
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like oh all of east asia is going through a total fertility collapse right now and it's like no like
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there's some wealthy countries in east asia that have better fertility rates than we have 1.8 for
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example do you know what country has a fertility rate of 1.8 that's new zealand probably the most
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gender egalitarian country in all of east asia what country has a fertility rate of 1.56 about the same
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as ours way above like trouncing any of the other countries in the region that's australia way more
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gender egalitarian than south korea or japan or china or thailand which also has a very low fertility
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rate for its level of wealth i think it was like 1.2 or something which also is going to hugely change
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these regions like a lot of people don't realize geopolitically what this means if you project the
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economies of these regions going forwards and ai just doesn't completely flip the way economies work
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which it could you know the fact that all of these economic heavy hitters like korea and japan and
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china are going to go through these demographic collapses which is going to hit their tax bases
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which is going to hit the way they work and australia and new zealand aren't going to go
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through that they will become the economic center of the entire region which is kind of wild this is
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one of the things i talk about where people are like oh you're just trying to like boost things for
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white people you know and it's like no actually like white people are fairly good gonna end up fairly
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well as things go like the the white colonized regions of east asia are going to completely
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economically dominate east asia if you look at the the larger global scene the united states and
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israel are the two countries that have unusually high fertility rates they were both usually thought
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of as white countries and we're going to completely dominate if you and people are like oh well what
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about like in east asia indonesia has like a super high fertility rate and it's like it doesn't it
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doesn't matter like because they're not economically productive uh and i'm not saying that like
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genetically they're less like i'm saying whatever for whatever reason that country isn't economically
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productive so it's not going to be economically productive tomorrow and even within the united
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states you see this phenomenon the people will be like black fertility in the united states is higher
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than white fertility and i'm like actually that's not true or it's true is a huge caveat which is
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that black fertility is the lowest ethnic fertility group in the united states for everyone who all black
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people who are above the bottom 20 percent of black earners yeah i think if we totally controlled
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for income i don't know if black fertility would be better yeah black fertility is actually super low
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and and this is really bad for the black community because it means that culturally if the only parts
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of that community that are reproducing itself are the the ones who are at the very bottom economically
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that's going to reduce the community's ability to project itself economically within society because
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the amount a kid has is correlated with the amount their their their parents make and i and again i'm not
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even saying genetically here let's pretend genes aren't a thing i'm just speaking culturally
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um but anyway indeed one reason that the united states birth rate may be higher oh sorry we already
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went over there is no single model for a good marriage in the u.s today and most couples have
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their struggles men still do less child care and housework and disagreements over division of
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household labor labor are a source of tension for couples many women still value some traditional
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traits in men such as breadwinning and some men's unreliability as breadwinners is a source of pain
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for them and their wives a 2016 study on divorce published in the american sociological review
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found that when a husband was not employed full-time his risk of divorce shot up by 33 percent the
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following year ouch that's really high yeah well no this divorce sorry that's not the absolute rate
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of divorce okay but but what's important here is when the wife was unemployed her odds of divorce do not
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change employment differences among less educated men are the big reason marriage rates are lower among
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the working class than among college graduates but on the whole marriage confers benefits to before we
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get into this what you have any thoughts on this because you haven't talked much during this piece
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i'm just absorbing this i i want to understand better how this correlates though with the falling
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rates of marriage and the falling rates of fertility in general like it doesn't really mean anything in
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isolation well i think that what is upstream of falling fertility rates has been falling marriage
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rates and if we are it is and brad wilcox absolutely argues that i mean probably here and also elsewhere but
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if there are fewer divorces for example i mean does it matter so much when like basically only the most
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dedicated people are getting married actually yeah it does because those are the people who are going to
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have kids more likely consider our i mean our society is basically going through a form of like
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correction right yeah which is more people are realizing simone and i were actually talking among
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ourselves about a friend of ours who previously would have been fine and and and did publicly identify
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as polyamorous and now wanted to publicly identify as as monogamous or monogamous more generally and
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it's just become like not cool to have like alternate types of marriages anymore the the traditional
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marriage structure has become the way that people want to signal themselves to the outside world in a
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way that i think is is transformative because it means a lot of young people like young type a people
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who just want to do the right thing are now like a lot of time like they used to be like oh i gotta go out
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and i gotta sleep around like a young girl would tell me this yeah for a while everyone was i mean
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maybe this is still the case but for a while it seemed like everyone said they were poly yeah and
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now we're at this time where a lot of people are like hey i've got people have heard our podcast
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where you say this and they're like you must have had some weird friends and it's like well we lived
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in san francisco so deal with it but anyway but anyway you what was i gonna say here marriage monogamy oh
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yes we have a sort of a societal shift in what's cool and that shift has meant that a lot of these
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type a people who sort of live their life on rails are now like okay now i get married i get married
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young and i have lots of kids and that's a good transition from the old world where people were
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just like i get married and then i have kids and i don't really think about it and everyone equally
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fell into that bucket where now it's increasingly the considered people who are falling into that bucket
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and the people who have a resistance to just doing what the urban monoculture says who fall into that
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bucket and i think that that that sort of weeding out of this huge section of the population is very
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good for society but anyway here he goes on but on the whole marriage confers benefits to women and
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men alike according to a 2024 general social survey married men and women ages 25 to 55 are more than
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twice as likely to be quote-unquote very happy with their life as non-married peers married people men and
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women both live longer are more financially secure and build more wealth than single americans in 2022
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i worked with you gov to survey 2000 married men and women asking them about their overall marital
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happiness and how they'd rate their spouse along a range of indicators the happiest wives in the survey
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were those who gave their husbands good marks for fairness in the marriage being attentive to them
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providing and being protective yes that's making them feel safe physically and otherwise
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specific and i note here you know if you're going into this as like a red pill mindset
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you can go into your wife as like this thing you want to tame and contain and have serve you
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but if you go into it with that much over that mindset you think about what what you're getting you're
00:21:06.260
getting like an animal that that begrudgingly respects you because it lusts after you because you're so alpha
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right if on the other hand almost like the equivalent of hired help like it's it's more work
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to make sure to ensure compliance of someone who is under your control than it is to simply ally
00:21:26.640
yourself who with someone who wants the same thing you do it's exactly easier to do the latter and here
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you're seeing if you are allied with somebody what makes them like you it appears that it is fairness
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okay so a degree of gender egalitarian this was in the marriage i mean fairness doesn't always mean
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gender egalitarian in a traditional sense like our marriage appears very gender in egalitarian where
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you do on mostly female roles i do mostly male roles but we each pull our weight and don't feel like
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yeah we're being taken through that and try to balance we don't even really try to balance we both
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try to do the most each of us can i never think about balance if i could do more i would do more like i i just
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and i think that that that's really positive being attentive to them so so being attentive to your
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wife i know that's not red pill that's not whatever right but that is trad that is what good men used to
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do for their wives right you know like my wife will note that like when she's looking to like try to bend
00:22:22.760
over to pick something up i know when she's pregnant she hates bending over so i always try to run over
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and help her with it or ensure nothing is on the floor in any room she enters then the kids put a lot
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of and i feel like you're handing me a rose every time you pick something off the floor it's so romantic
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i'm like oh swoon and and being protective is really big do you feel like i'm protective of you
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i don't know yeah yeah you're always trying to make sure that we're shored up on all fronts
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oh i guess you're right that is protection specifically 81 of wives 55 or younger who gave
00:22:53.320
their husbands high marks on at least three of these qualities these were very happily married
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compared to just 25 of wives who gave them high marks on two or fewer and in part because most
00:23:04.120
wives were reasonably happy it was the the job their husband was doing on at least three out of
00:23:09.180
two of these fronts most wives were very happy with their husbands according to the survey in fact
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we found that more than two-thirds of wives was in this age group and husbands too were very happy with
00:23:18.780
their marriage overall so to go into that in fact we found that more than two-thirds of wives in in
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their group and husbands so two-thirds were very happy with their marriages what's the chance i'm
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going to be happy with my marriage these days two-thirds if you assumed it was average but
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again it's not average it's 81 percent if you are being you know being attentive to them being
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providing and and treating your marriage with a degree of fairness um and and this is this is
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the thing where it's like well i don't know what the probability of getting in a divorce is
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it's like if you go into the marriage with an overly red pill mindset it's pretty effing high
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which is not to say that the red pill doesn't have adequate complaints and that red pill philosophy
00:24:02.460
does not work at achieving sex with people who you know you you probably don't want to be married to
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but it is not a good mindset to enter a long-term relationship with and we've actually seen an
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evolution of the red pill community from that like right now i'm talking about the red pill community
00:24:19.520
and its nascency the red pill community as it exists today largely recognizes all of these things
00:24:24.680
except for like andrew tate the one the one guy who does it maybe like hamza we've done an episode
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on how hamza screwed up his life by by overly focusing on these things watch it it's a very
00:24:34.520
funny episode that we did way too much editing on basically i'm starting the fatherhood chapter of
00:24:39.740
my life we're not pregnant just yet but we've moved to the scottish highlands the reason why me
00:24:46.780
and my ex split up is i told her to sit down and to write down like her goals and i wrote you know
00:24:51.660
what i want to move to like a big city you will not find this kind of woman who will fit with this
00:24:55.800
lifestyle in a big major city why the women who are in the big cities are their glorified instagram
00:25:01.540
prostitution i actually want to have a few like sleepless nights i want to have a few like like
00:25:06.800
sleep deprived nights where i stay up late bro for the last few years i've went to sleep at 7 8 p.m
00:25:11.640
i've you couldn't imagine the amount of like parties and social events and dinners that i've missed
00:25:15.880
i know what goes on in these parties and the issue was that the girls that i was meeting from these
00:25:21.160
places just like i i was as well we're all low quality it's a low quality place to be i wanted
00:25:26.540
to be super social i wanted to have some late nights where we stay up and we're social and
00:25:30.280
there's a party that we go to and everything but she saw it and i'm not gonna lie like i could see
00:25:33.980
how like offended she was where she was quite like pressuring she was like wait you want to do this oh
00:25:39.240
you want to do that you want to stay up late but that's unhealthy those party girls like the party
00:25:43.640
low quality degenerate tiktok type of girls they are attracted to the party low quality degenerate tiktok
00:25:49.580
type of guys find like trash can stay with trash because for hers she wrote that she wanted to do
00:25:54.200
more of the things that we were currently doing it's wholesome and you know that she's an awesome
00:25:57.720
girl for that she doesn't want to be around like you know like party girls and whatever i just
00:26:01.820
realized like we're actually going into two separate seasons right now find like trash can stay with
00:26:06.300
trash this is gonna sound weird you need to be hit in the face i will repeat that again as a young
00:26:11.940
man you need to be hit in the face consistently but anyway check it out the hansa episode but yeah the
00:26:16.960
the or the andrew tate various episodes we've done on how i actually think that they're quite
00:26:20.740
funny as well but anyway we point out that andrew tate like in trying to be masculine if you were
00:26:26.120
taking characters from the movie gladiator he literally acts like the the emperor who's supposed
00:26:31.580
to be like really pathetic and carries around a sword to like people instead of like maximus and i'm
00:26:37.060
like guys maximus is who the girls want it's not the emperor okay but he doesn't understand he thinks
00:26:42.880
it's about threatening and keeping everyone afraid of him and keeping everyone on edge and
00:26:46.340
being creepy and the way he talks about people i guarantee you don't walk around your house with
00:26:53.320
a sword because you're not a commander i'm a commander you know like when you command the troops
00:27:00.040
into battle so i walk around my house with a sword and i make threats like old school threats like
00:27:05.760
i will run you through which is already springing up there so it sees a
00:27:16.040
i call it love i shall hold them to my bosom and embrace them tight i'm that guy who does whatever he
00:27:24.000
wants if you're unhappy with it you're unhappy with waiting for me to light a cigar then leave the
00:27:28.540
channel i give a fuck about you you're a peasant you're a peon you're a brokey i do as i please
00:27:33.980
i've analyzed the entire earth all of it so i like women but females are barely sentient even the
00:27:43.900
good ones in fact especially the good ones and the point is when i say barely sentient is that the
00:27:48.000
female's entire life process from head to toe she never really thinks for herself my four wives are
00:27:55.280
sitting there they've seen on the news there's a new deadly contagion i pick up my sword i am the
00:28:02.200
commander of this house i decide if there's a contagion i decide what i do be quiet cook you got
00:28:11.440
your sword your wife starts talking you're like shut up she got sorry you wrote to me once listing
00:28:18.740
the four chief virtues wisdom justice fortitude and temperance as i read the list i knew i had none of
00:28:24.260
them but i have other virtues ambition that can be a virtue when it drives us to excel but hey it seems
00:28:31.180
to be working for him i mean his whole thing is basically faded hasn't it it's like he's still a
00:28:35.120
thing last i heard of him he was in florida and there were legal issues and then yeah i don't know
00:28:42.940
maybe like on tiktok and stuff you know what i mean yeah so i decided to check how big andrew
00:28:47.500
tate is these days and his core channel appears to be his rumble account which has millions of
00:28:53.020
followers but if you look at the videos he's posting he has one from yesterday that had 36.9k views
00:28:58.180
he has one from three days ago which is at 33.1k views he has one from three days before that which
00:29:03.780
is 31.5k which is larger than us so he's like about i don't know maybe three times
00:29:12.080
or four times the size of our channel but that's wild to think about but anyway i believe it's
00:29:18.580
important for teen boys and young men to hear the entirety of this message marriage changes men but
00:29:24.660
not nefarious ways andrew tate might think men work harder and find more success at work after
00:29:30.520
they get married they drink less as well and marriage can channel noble characteristics and
00:29:35.140
behaviors that have classically been identified with masculinity protection provision ambition
00:29:40.200
stoicism that's good for both men and women i actually yeah really improved after i got married
00:29:45.360
in terms of my stoicism and provision and willingness to protect and emotional stability
00:29:51.560
my ambition has stayed the same before and after marriage i always wanted to take over the world
00:29:55.640
which i guess is sort of maximum ambition either way that's good for both men and women it can help
00:30:02.500
young men identify and work towards a model of pro-social masculinity that diverges from the one
00:30:08.020
being peddled by manosphere influencers such as tate marriage's comeback is good news for society
00:30:12.960
children raised in two-parent homes are much more likely to graduate from college than those raised
00:30:18.040
in other families and less likely to be incarcerated kids who don't live with both of their married
00:30:23.100
parents are far more likely to be depressed than those raised in intact families after surveying
00:30:28.240
research on child well-being the economist meli carsey concluded the evidence is clear even if the
00:30:33.860
punchline is uncomfortable children are more likely to thrive behaviorally academically and ultimately in
00:30:39.200
the labor market and adult life if they grow up with the advantages of a two-parent home
00:30:43.380
yeah reflects the mainstream academic consensus of family structure in children today dot dot dot so
00:30:49.140
sorry jumping ahead in the piece of it here but marriage's comeback is of course incomplete although
00:30:56.220
the trend may be starting to reverse the share of all americans who get married has fallen
00:31:00.360
significantly since the 60s and there is abundant evidence that many young adults today are reluctant
00:31:06.200
to marry or having trouble finding partners who want to marry totally marriage has become more
00:31:11.700
selective over time socioeconomically a majority of college-aged americans ages 25 to 55 62 percent
00:31:18.160
are married versus a minority of less college-aged americans 49 percent according to the 2023 american
00:31:23.540
community survey this bifurcation did not exist a century and a half ago and is one of the regions
00:31:28.400
marriages are more durable today money makes everything easier so you're right it is part that marriage is
00:31:34.400
becoming more selective marriage is becoming and as i've said but this change is so recent so recent like i'd say
00:31:40.060
like last three years in the zeitgeist but marriage is becoming cool and sleeping around is becoming
00:31:46.660
not cool even to young people stable relationships are becoming the rare thing that people want
00:31:54.360
you know being the you know sexual gods is becoming a lot less something that you can sell on the in the
00:32:02.460
community marketplace yeah yeah i mean do you have thoughts if you notice as well this is just me or
00:32:09.380
my perception no i i'm i think one people are just more shut-ins and i i also think that there's one
00:32:18.880
element of this that hasn't yet been discussed which is as people are feeling more and more economically
00:32:25.120
disenfranchised there is now more of a logical argument in some cases for marriage because you
00:32:32.620
can slightly diversify your income portfolio and depend on each other and kind of switch between jobs
00:32:40.220
together in a way that mitigates a risk yeah so when people don't have parents they can move in with
00:32:47.880
for example i think marriage in the name of stability and shared risk and more support you're
00:32:54.200
saying as times get worse marriage becomes more economically beneficial well i think that's the
00:32:58.460
big problem is that there was a long period where people thought marriage was about love and fun
00:33:02.920
and like marrying someone who would entertain you both personally and sexually when that's not what
00:33:09.660
marriage is about i mean marriage has for the vast majority of human existence been an economic and
00:33:14.300
security-based arrangement that revolved around you know being safe being able to survive and having
00:33:20.460
kids and i think if anything i mean a lot of people of course aren't interested or they literally don't
00:33:27.360
feel safe enough or stable enough to have kids many people are at least looking to marriage to start
00:33:33.080
just as as a maybe a way to be safer because it's better to for example live with an aligned roommate
00:33:40.520
who you trust rather than just be stuck with roommates which is kind of your only choice
00:33:46.100
in many housing markets so i think that's a it's a factor that wilcox is not really discussing here
00:33:54.820
it's a little more dark but i think it's there but the idea that successful marriages are attainable
00:34:01.760
only by certain groups today is misguided since 2012 divorce rates have been falling for working
00:34:07.760
class americans and black americans too and the share of kids being raised in married families
00:34:12.460
for these two groups has stabilized in fact the proportion of black children being raised in
00:34:17.180
married parent families rose from 33 percent in 2012 to 39 percent in 2024 okay and across both
00:34:25.120
class and racial lines marriage is linked to greater happiness household earnings and wealth for women and
00:34:30.780
men dot dot marriage is not for everyone of course it isn't but men and women who are flying solo
00:34:38.900
without a spouse typically report their lives to be less meaningful and more lonely the share of
00:34:43.680
unmarried men ages 25 to 55 who say they are unhappy in the general social survey more than doubled from the
00:34:51.200
late 1990s to the 2020s the fact alone that fact alone highlights just how wrong andrew tate is about
00:34:58.320
men in marriage now what's really interesting here is this doubling happened from the 1990s to the 2020s
00:35:03.560
so we're looking within a group here the amount of unmarried men who say they are unhappy and so what
00:35:09.540
we're seeing is that unmarried men no longer perceive the state of unmarriedness as being
00:35:15.680
satisfying as much as they used to i mean i think that that's because culture is shifting yeah
00:35:22.440
yeah well i also think that in an era in which socializing is collapsing and we talked about
00:35:30.460
this with the death of partying and we we've talked about this in other episodes
00:35:33.940
having a married partner or at least a long-term boyfriend or girlfriend i think
00:35:41.340
gives people that happy medium of getting to stay inside all the time and not going out
00:35:46.560
but still having a built-in social life that feels satisfying and and not pathetic by societal
00:35:54.100
standards because i still think a lot of people's decisions are based on self-image based things
00:36:00.440
i agree i agree yeah i mean people are are most people are basically npcs trying to maximize a
00:36:05.560
particular self-image so they want a way to be able to never leave their house without seeming like a
00:36:11.640
complete failure and if you're never leaving your house but your wife is there and especially if
00:36:17.440
your wife and kids are there then you're just a responsible dad right this is our culture and not
00:36:23.420
all cultures okay that's true a lot of yeah a lot of people we got this message from one of our jew
00:36:28.200
friends recently and conservative jewish guy a really great guy but anyway he was giving a life update
00:36:34.320
and talking about how their their child care situation had improved so that now he was able to go to
00:36:41.060
to go out to dinner with friends four to five times a week he said not to four to five times a week
00:36:47.560
oh my god it reminds me of that scene in the it crowd when he's like you know do you get your your
00:36:53.560
fruit your your one or two fruits or veggies and he's like yeah i mean i guess i do if he goes
00:36:59.940
a day he goes oh day do you get your five social interactions oh i mean i certainly try to i would
00:37:08.580
say i probably i probably do a week a what of course in my head i'm thinking a year a year yeah
00:37:16.580
and i'm like oh what oh my god and i and i understand that this person is biologically not
00:37:23.880
the same type of thing i am yeah because yeah if we if this person were to enter our minds and and like
00:37:31.260
live in our bodies the the very thought of that would be so horrifying he would just start vomiting
00:37:37.300
uncontrollably and then have a seizure like i don't know no really it's literally like asking
00:37:42.840
like how many times a year do you want to pay taxes well i know i need to do it so i do it you
00:37:47.580
know the the couple times per year and this person's like i i get to pay taxes four or five times a week
00:37:52.880
now it's a blast oh i just i just had to have a social interaction with somebody and i hated it you
00:38:00.600
know who we were in a business transaction with and i want to enter a world where all of my business
00:38:06.320
transactions are just with you so i do not need to talk or engage with other people but oh you know
00:38:13.260
fortunately the people we have working on our like all of our developer teams are pretty good these
00:38:17.440
days it's just like the other like entrepreneur types that are really frustrating me at this point
00:38:21.600
i think most of the people we work with are really amazing and then but even even working
00:38:28.140
with people that you love is very can be very stressful but yeah i think some people just live
00:38:34.760
for it they love it for whatever reason but i i do agree with you that the portion you know if we're
00:38:41.660
right people can get our episodes of why do you have friends that the portion of society that's like
00:38:45.640
really into these larger friend networks is actually coming from some minority cultural groups in terms of
00:38:49.660
their influence on whiter culture and a lot of americans actually just do not want whiter social
00:38:56.380
networks that you migrate that a lot of people are getting married to just retreat to the the marriage
00:39:01.520
and the family life well and based on the the stats that you shared in our episode on partying which
00:39:07.400
showed larger stats on socializing in general basically three out of 10 americans if i recall correctly
00:39:16.400
are going to most of the social events and then seven out of 10 are not there at all so i think
00:39:22.320
people get this perception that everybody likes going out when you're just seeing the same three
00:39:29.120
out of 10 people at everything and then there's this huge like under the ocean part of the iceberg
00:39:34.880
of the population that you're not going to see because they're not out there that is hokikomori maxing
00:39:41.200
yeah um and so now i want to go to he started this article with an andrew tate quote or talking
00:39:47.320
about andrew tate and i thought the way he framed this is pretty interesting quote there is zero
00:39:52.620
statistical advantage in quote to getting married if you are a man in america today andrew tate argued
00:39:59.380
in a viral 2022 video on why modern men don't want marriage women he believes are worthless anchors
00:40:07.840
they want you monogamous so your testosterone level drops he posted on x last fall and your
00:40:14.140
marriage is likely to end in ruin anyway if you use your mind if you use your head instead of your
00:40:20.140
heart and you look at the advantages of getting married there are none oh his heart's telling him
00:40:26.260
to get married that's actually sad sounding that is really sad our hearts never told us to get married
00:40:32.800
our minds did our minds did i believe it was logical andrew tate meanwhile i was like i want
00:40:38.340
to marry my heart says yes but my mind says no my well i mean he's self-image maxing right like
00:40:44.700
well he's a brand and a reputation to keep up if he marries he would look yeah andrew tate is a role
00:40:50.800
he's not a human you know he's a human who every day wakes up and is like i am playing the role of
00:40:55.940
that heart thing is very telling my heart never told me to get married that's crazy
00:41:00.480
seriously i i only was thinking logically about whether or not i wanted to marry you i was
00:41:06.980
considering the benefits and the downsides and you as an investment that i was engaging in
00:41:12.720
as you should correct and then tate believes that men no longer receive the deference they deserve
00:41:20.660
from women in marriage and bear more risk in divorce which it's true it's true they're more
00:41:25.900
risk in divorce well no and deference there were so many toxic cultural things i had to get over
00:41:31.680
after we married because i just every example of a wife that i'd been presented with basically
00:41:39.160
was this eye-rolling undermining disrespectful monster i didn't have good examples i think the
00:41:46.680
thing is is good women don't want to be disrespectful to their husbands no but they
00:41:51.740
don't have any other they don't have a better example to run by so if they're running off
00:41:55.220
templates right but what i'm saying is when you when you we all have an episode that's coming out i
00:41:59.500
don't know it'll come out before this but it'll come out soon is on how to train your wife and it
00:42:04.160
goes over this like how to go through this and it's mostly not like andrew tate style training it's
00:42:09.080
mostly just sit her down and logically think through this hey when you do this stuff in public it makes me
00:42:14.760
look bad do you want to make me look bad in public and if you're with a woman who's like yes i do
00:42:20.780
you probably don't want to marry that woman but most women will be like you know i don't want to
00:42:25.380
make you look bad in public like let's talk through how i cannot make you look bad and also i don't even
00:42:29.860
know if we brought this up in the episode yeah we didn't but a really good point you have also made
00:42:35.080
is how does this make you look okay how does this make you look because i think a lot of women don't
00:42:41.500
think about how toxic and sharp and venomous and cruel they look when they undermine their husbands
00:42:49.220
yeah like you may think that you're making your husband look like a doofus or that he is a doofus
00:42:55.320
but you look like a cunt like there's no better way to put it but i mean i was very guilty of this and
00:43:03.920
i still am guilty of this sometimes but i think you're you're reminding me of that was also like
00:43:09.300
it reflects poorly on the marriage it hurts the man and it hurts the woman publicly probably hurting
00:43:14.820
the woman the very most yeah yeah no i definitely when i see a woman talk down about her husband or
00:43:20.340
something like that or try to be sassy because for a longest time women need to be sassy and now
00:43:26.220
and they took pride in this they took pride in appearing sassy yeah that that is that is less in
00:43:30.540
vogue now encouragingly encouraging well i mean you look at young people today they drink less they do
00:43:35.520
less drugs they go out less they party less and they you know and people can be like oh that's
00:43:39.900
just because they have less money and it's like well they spend more money on takeout you know like
00:43:43.220
yeah they're spending a lot of money they don't have so that's that's not an excuse
00:43:47.060
yeah and then to continue with this part he goes he argues that men should focus on getting strong
00:43:52.200
making lots of money and using but not investing themselves in the opposite sex his evident appeal clips
00:43:59.460
of tate garner hundreds of millions of impressions on youtube and tiktok
00:44:02.840
would seem to be yet one more sign that our oldest social institution is in trouble so that's
00:44:09.200
how we started the piece and and and i think that this is i actually think that one of the reasons why
00:44:13.660
tate is declining in sort of the public mind share when he was the number one conservative
00:44:19.060
influencer a few years ago uh is that that's not what people want anymore like there was sort of this
00:44:26.620
this height of this generation of red pillars and then people were sort of like but isn't there
00:44:32.480
some other option like okay the way we used to do things doesn't seem to work exactly anymore
00:44:39.980
and the weird you know lifestyle that the urban monoculture imposed on us where women are this
00:44:46.520
and women are that and and and and they're always the victims and men are the oppressors that seemed
00:44:52.040
really toxic and led to a lot of negative externalities and dating and everything and then there was a
00:44:57.520
reactionary culture to that which was like red pill andrew tate culture but i think that this
00:45:01.860
generation just sort of saw all of those crazy pendulum swings of the last generation and is like
00:45:08.000
can we just find out something that's gonna work like reasonable yeah yeah we just try to be reasonable
00:45:14.740
instead of being like bitter like all you know when they come to you and they go well you know your
00:45:19.340
marriage is likely to fail and it's like yeah but it's not first of all and then second of all
00:45:26.180
if i am considerate about it and i get married to someone i like and i get married to somebody who
00:45:32.620
supports me throughout my life the quality of life that i have access to is so much higher than the
00:45:38.240
individual who doesn't absolutely i have access to is so much higher than the individual who doesn't
00:45:42.840
so why are you trying to suck me in you know your crabs in a bucket mentality the the whole you know
00:45:48.160
the community will talk about crabs in the bucket with women and they won't admit that that's what
00:45:51.920
they're doing you know so many of the people who lead you know sort of the don't even try to get
00:45:58.780
married philosophy movement are divorce men you know keep that in mind they're not never married
00:46:04.820
men they're divorced men and you change is actually one of the few never married men in the community
00:46:09.200
but i mean he's functionally married to his brother i mean they they live together they share their
00:46:14.020
wives i i don't think they share their wives i think they share a household and they they share
00:46:19.540
a household with multiple women i promise you they share their wives um because they're not real
00:46:25.880
wives and both of them think oh you can't commit to one woman and we've shown yeah but i'm i'm sure
00:46:31.800
they expect that the women commit to them exclusively consider that andrew tate was willing to have his
00:46:38.400
women like i would never have you pretty much no matter what our financial situation was go online
00:46:44.240
and pretend to have sex with men oh yeah but i think a lot of people draw the line at physical contact
00:46:50.540
but maybe not very interesting i i i personally would not at all be surprised if andrew tate shirts his
00:46:58.520
wife was well i imagine if he did he'd probably be open about it would he though i think he has the
00:47:03.120
common sense to know the controversy that would cause i mean there's that one red pill influencer who
00:47:07.820
decided to share that he liked being cucked and then everybody was like yeah it didn't go well
00:47:12.320
completely destroyed his reputation i think andrew tate would know him sharing wives with his brother
00:47:17.800
would lead to the same fallout they share business ventures and
00:47:21.920
no there's there's no direct evidence or any suggestion they share has he ever said he doesn't
00:47:31.460
has he ever said he doesn't this is there is there any if he doesn't he would definitely say he
00:47:37.060
doesn't because it looks like he does so i'm just like and you know what's funny the marriage between
00:47:44.580
andrew tate and his brother is like basically a traditional marriage they share a house together
00:47:48.760
they respect each other they share responsibilities and business and life so that's true yeah gosh
00:47:54.220
they're in business together i think that yeah they do live together don't they yeah yeah yes andrew
00:47:59.840
tate and his brother tristan tate have shared a house in romania multiple sources confirm they
00:48:07.000
were living together in a luxury villa that was raided by romanian authorities in december 22 20 22
00:48:13.100
but they've never confirmed they don't share women their their history of cohabitating in romania is
00:48:20.740
well documented and their joint business operations suggest they have maintained close proximity yeah i mean
00:48:28.740
yeah yeah they are kind of married that's that's cute no but what i'm saying is it's pretty obvious
00:48:34.500
they're sharing their wives i just i just really don't think i just really don't think they are i
00:48:39.960
guarantee you i guarantee you no no like they're all about like traditional man stuff and the most
00:48:45.860
classic traditional man thing is my woman is dedicated to me and me only i do not oh he's all about
00:48:53.900
brotherhood and stuff like that too and trust of the male tribe above trust of women and women are
00:48:59.820
tools for sex and childbirth come on simone okay yes it does appear that they shared wives and this
00:49:07.640
has been proven in court documents vivian was andrew tate's girlfriend since she was 15 to 16 years old
00:49:13.120
this was something that both she and chat logs showed and evidence from victim statement in the
00:49:19.300
brother's second romanian case made public via u.s via lawsuit filing claims tristan tate pressured her
00:49:24.700
into intercourse involving vivian and another woman vivian said tristan asked me to have intercourse in a
00:49:31.480
group namely vivian and redacted although i wasn't comfortable with the situation i had no choice it was
00:49:36.660
somehow a duty so it wasn't just that the brother had access to the mothers of tate's children he had
00:49:43.960
access to them for intercourse whenever he wanted and on demand and apparently without checking with
00:49:50.380
his brother which suggests that they were seen as communal property i i am not suggesting that there's
00:49:54.800
anything gay going on there i'm just saying no no no well no there's nothing gay about sharing
00:49:58.640
female partners and i know like there are some actually quite quite a few several several spontaneously
00:50:06.560
evolved traditions whereby if a woman's husband dies she is then automatically married to the brother of
00:50:17.080
that man who died i think in one in one african culture though before she marries the brother after her
00:50:25.520
husband dies she has to sleep with another guy to like cleanse herself of the like palate cleanser which is
00:50:32.940
really weird that's a very weird one well married to the brother who died it's called a levite marriage and it was
00:50:39.100
the traditional jewish yeah i'm referring to some some african culture has the the the sexual palate cleanser
00:50:47.020
partner that has to take place before the the next marriage but yeah i mean it's so there's there's clearly
00:50:54.700
some some cultural comfort i can't even like imagine what that conversation is like so you know my husband died
00:51:01.400
yeah of course i need to marry his brother now but so are you interested yeah i don't know who makes
00:51:12.200
the selection or if there are dedicated people who are like i'm the stud of this village go come to me
00:51:19.740
when your husband dies i will handle it professionally i have female references you may view your menu of
00:51:27.740
sexual options here i'll i'll be discreet etc i i could see that just how when there was some latin
00:51:34.140
american country that had tax penalties for men who had not married but they could get out of it if
00:51:39.920
they proposed to a woman who rejected him and then there was this this market of women who would for
00:51:44.860
pay reject proposals so i could see there being a market in this particular culture of men who are like
00:51:50.880
i will gladly fulfill this role all right well simone i love you to death you're a great wife
00:51:58.440
i do think marriage is back i do think that it's becoming cool again i think when i really realized
00:52:02.900
this was when i was talking to this person who was very proudly polyamorous before and was like
00:52:07.260
you know i want to represent myself as more like monogamous or monogamous and i was like and also
00:52:12.940
when we interviewed jeffrey miller what was interesting about what he said about marriage was that
00:52:17.120
he or maybe like some class i can't remember if it was his class or someone else's class
00:52:21.720
traditional marriage was referred to as like one of the relationship like alternative relationship
00:52:28.400
formats because it's so you know it's not like now it's radical monogamy which is the trend that's
00:52:36.380
going on in silicon valley these days yeah monogamy but like i'm not a square or anything
00:52:43.860
yeah i love the concept of like marriage have you thought of it oh i don't know
00:52:51.100
i don't want to get that dirty yeah i have a husband who i serve food for oh my gosh oh my gosh
00:52:59.280
and i'm gonna get pregnant we're legally bound to each other what is this the omega verse
00:53:06.000
this is kinky oh god no it's really come to that now so anyway love you to death mom
00:53:11.860
don't love you too oh that's class on contract law that i took that a contract is valid even if
00:53:21.280
it's just an email that somebody replied to is that where our email or didn't happen rule came from
00:53:27.360
no no but i did make a point of and i you know i think a lot of people should it's interesting how
00:53:33.480
much like law isn't taught in school and and so i made a point of when i was younger buying you know
00:53:39.820
like 48 hours worth of lectures on contract law and tort law and going through all of it just to
00:53:45.320
make sure i knew the basics of it and there's so much like obvious stuff well the stuff that like
00:53:50.620
i you know is very useful to know in your life that you may just like you could just learn in that
00:53:58.620
right yeah although and i felt equally empowered but then i feel less empowered now
00:54:03.800
when i see that it it it's almost like law lawlessness now prevails because the courts
00:54:11.480
don't do anything yeah and it's so prohibitively expensive to go to court if you're not representing
00:54:17.540
yourself and even if you are like in terms of your time and stress so a lot of people when when bad
00:54:23.980
things happen they they don't get to rely upon them being on the right side of the law
00:54:30.000
because for them to follow through on that and have justice it's so expensive yeah they literally
00:54:36.440
can't afford you like it's better to pay the bribe it's better to and that's just yeah like we've had
00:54:40.720
instances with our investors where like this person stole a hundred thousand dollars from the company
00:54:44.320
and they're like it's not worth a lawsuit and i was like what do you mean they're like that amount
00:54:48.180
of money is not for a company of your size worth a lawsuit you will lose more money and the instances
00:54:52.920
in which like there was one instance in which they were like yes pursue this person with a lawyer and it
00:54:59.320
just we were tens of thousands of dollars in the hole based on that and absolutely nothing happened
00:55:04.780
from it no justice was brought to them they just they just ghosted all the court orders
00:55:09.560
and didn't do anything and we couldn't afford to take it further after a certain point because
00:55:17.580
why would we waste even more money yeah but anyway stupid so stupid what do people say about the
00:55:26.340
episode today oh people really liked seeing jeffrey miller on people enjoy the collaboration
00:55:31.180
there were a lot of people who were like i don't there were some people who insisted that they
00:55:36.620
would never consider dating at a university which i think is crazy i mean even even though i had zero
00:55:41.660
intention of ever getting married university we place you date i know like well even if you're not
00:55:47.520
considering it as dating like if you refuse to socialize at all while you're at the university
00:55:52.400
like that's you don't understand the value and this is one of the few times where it's very easy
00:55:57.000
to mix with and meet for context university is one of the few times in your life when you are around
00:56:03.500
a large pool of single people that are about your estimated social class because what university you
00:56:09.740
go to is basically your estimated social class that are broadly pre-vetted like these people
00:56:13.480
have passed like basic i've made an effort and that are open to socializing you will never find it
00:56:19.760
that easy to socialize again yeah like you can join a church group you can join a what like club
00:56:25.780
they'd say well you can join a church group outside of university but at university there are a thousand
00:56:31.000
clubs interest groups anything just events just events the way things i mean on on my university
00:56:37.340
campus there were constant there was fall fest there was like all these different parties and weekend
00:56:42.280
events and things you just show up to like tie-dye a t-shirt it was basically like expensive summer
00:56:46.720
there isn't an equivalent of this when you get into the working world there isn't there isn't you can
00:56:51.560
go to events but the people who go to events in in like the the working world age range are typically
00:56:57.280
weirdos failures or married or like just looking to sell something not actually looking to date yeah
00:57:04.500
it's it's very different like try to go to like a local anime club even in like a nice area and and
00:57:10.700
you'll find just like a bunch of weirdos you go to anime club at university you find a bunch of
00:57:13.960
competent people who are interested in anime totally interested in biology okay i was in the
00:57:18.420
biology society and psychology society and the neuroscience society all great people who shared
00:57:21.900
interests with me yeah but i was to join a group like that as an adult it would be weirdos because
00:57:27.280
that's not how you meet people as in like after i think this is why jeffrey miller was talking about
00:57:32.720
tucker max having met his wife at crossfit like there are a few places where you can find conscientious
00:57:39.680
competent people but i mean actually the odds of finding a single person at crossfit you know who's
00:57:46.000
interested like that's also it's tough you know it's kind of impressive that he was still able to
00:57:50.080
do that yeah yeah actually i think an easy rule for our kids because this was what i was taught
00:57:55.500
growing up is you have to get married before you finish your formal education or find the person you're
00:58:01.320
going to marry rather which both my brother and i did when you remember when i graduated undergrad i was
00:58:06.220
like well i still have graduate school but i will find someone to marry at graduate school like
00:58:10.280
afterwards my prospects get so much worse so this this always been sort of wild to me but anyway
00:58:16.800
i didn't find you at graduate school by the way i found you in between undergrad and graduate school
00:58:20.360
yeah but on our first date you told me you were going to find your wife at graduate school
00:58:23.380
yeah well because i knew i was i was on the basically the first woman i meet at this point going
00:58:29.360
forwards that is interested in me that is competent enough to be my wife is somebody who i'm gonna marry
00:58:33.860
i was your musical chairs chair yes you were my musical chairs chair it's an honor malcolm i'm so
00:58:40.620
glad you were also the best you were also the best that was just luck of the draw though actually
00:58:45.060
it's more like a chair that you complete that took apart and rebuilt after you you're like i guess
00:58:49.800
this is my chair now let's fix it up you made it real nice it worked it worked okay yeah we kind of
00:58:55.180
like each other all right torson what are you doing i'm giving all the dinosaurs to titan you are
00:59:05.280
yeah why are you doing that because i want titan to be happy why do you want titan to be happy
00:59:13.980
because i want titan to be happy does it make you happy when you make titan happy
00:59:21.280
do you want me to go get you the train would that make you happy
00:59:38.300
um okay toasty because you just did a very nice thing i'm gonna go get your trains