Oh no! Anything but Chastity! (4B Movement Hits the States)
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss the birth of the 4B movement, its move to the United States, and the impact it has on the culture. Simone and I discuss the origins of the movement, what it means for the culture, and why we should be worried about it.
Transcript
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Hello Simone! I am excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to do a deep dive both
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on the formation of the 4B movement, its move to the United States, but also being Basecamp I wanted
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to take a unique perspective on this movement. And I think it reveals something that a lot of
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people are not picking up. You have to have 4Bs. Rods, blood, and bullets. That's what it takes.
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So for those who are not clear, what the 4B movement is, is a movement away from having sex
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with men, marrying men, or having kids. Don't even get me started about this whole rights thing.
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What have we come to if you can't demand sexual favors from the people in your employ?
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We'll go into specifics in a bit, but that's the gist of it. Women who feel from a feminist and
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far-left perspective done with men are moving towards a lifestyle of increased chastity.
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Now, as you can imagine, and as we will go over in this, many conservatives are like,
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yeah, this is what we always wanted you to do. But I think that they are missing something
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fundamental that's happening here, which is the 4B movement, as well as other movements within the
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progressive cause now, are almost a laundered conservative movement that is intentionally
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So it really hit home this weekend when we were meeting with a bunch of people from the Heritage
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Foundation and a bunch of Washington conservatives, and a lot of them like pushing ideas like banning
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pornography, which is very popular among groups like the 4B movement.
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The 4B movement is actually in Korea known as a very turfy movement. It's a very anti-trans movement,
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which we'll get to, which I think would surprise a lot of people. They're like, wait,
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it's an anti-trans movement. It's like, yeah, it's an anti-trans movement.
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So they're anti-trans. They're pro-chastity. They believe that a man is born a man and a woman is
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born a woman, and there's only two genders. They are against pornography, and they have a very
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traditional role of a woman's value to society. So fundamentally, what is the 4B movement, but a
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movement that says my core value, like if I wanted to put pressure on society, the core way I would do
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that is by limiting sexual access to myself. And it also frames sexuality as something that men want
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from women and that it is women to distribute. It's not like women want sex and men want sex.
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It is a very, very traditional view of sexuality, which is sexuality and sex is something women
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fundamentally don't want or don't want that much. And they can manipulate their husbands or society
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by trickling it out. And I think that what we're seeing here is as the Democratic Party,
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and you can see this in the statistics, is especially in places like Korea, right? Where
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well, it's not the Democratic Party, I think it's separate in Korea, but you see women going far
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one way in voting patterns and men going far another way in voting patterns. As the parties increasingly
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become a male party and a female party, it only makes sense that a traditionalist conservative
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female agenda faction would form within the progressive party. And I think that's what we're
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beginning to see the rumblings of with the 4B movement. Hmm. I may not agree, but I will share my
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opinions as you show yours. No, I want to hear your counters this.
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I've watched a bunch of 4B content, especially American commentary after Trump was elected when
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there was a surge in 4B interest in the United States. And when it comes down to it, in the end,
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I think this is ultimately just another iteration of women tearing other women down to create a more
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competitive market for themselves. To say, yeah, you know, shave your hair, don't wear makeup,
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swear off men. Wait, do you actually believe, like, I could see this hypothetically being a thing,
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but when I try to model the women who are doing things like shaving their heads, or the women who
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are cheering them on, I don't think that they actively see these women as sexual competition.
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It's not conscious, but it's something that happens anyway. If you have a bunch of women sitting
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around, and they're all like, oh, my thighs are so fat. I'm so ugly. Everyone just kind of talks
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themselves down. And then everyone's like, no, you're beautiful like you are. You should not wear
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any makeup. And you're being nice. But also, it wouldn't be terrible if they didn't take that much
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character. Have you ever caught yourself intentionally engaging in that behavior?
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I just am on autopilot. I'm on autorespond. I'm always just going to say whatever creates the most
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social harmony and niceness. But I just get that impression low key. And there's a lot going on with
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the commentary in this movement. But in the end, when you look at research on female interaction,
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and what not words say, but what actions demonstrate, women subtly pull each other down
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all the time. Like that study with haircuts, and more attractive women getting more hair cut off.
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This just feels like a market correction among women.
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Researchers had evaluated, and I might butcher this, but the gist of the study was that
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women who were more attractive in this study were given shorter haircuts than they requested
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by their hair stylists. And the supposition is that they were overcorrecting for these women being
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too pretty and trying to essentially tear them down. And there's also some research suggesting
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a little bit of discrimination against women in hiring. Cremieux actually did an interesting analysis of
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this, a short one on his sub stack, suggesting that a lot of the research on attractiveness and
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how people are affected is actually kludgy because the way that people are rating attractiveness is
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really subjective and not perfect in many ways. In many studies, some studies are better than others.
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But anyway, there is, I think, a lot of intrasexual competition among women that is very subconscious
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and that the 4B's movement is definitely in part motivated by feminist interests, but for a variety of reasons.
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I'm getting a lot more pick me signaling than I am getting.
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But who are they signaling the pick meanness to? I mean, look, they're signaling it. And I think this is interesting.
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They're signaling that they're extra hard to get, that they're extra desirable, so that when they do
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hone in on a target, that target understands just how high value this woman is. She's sworn off
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all men, which of course almost like makes you a virgin again, right? She's virginal again. She's
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unobtainable, but she might consider you. And so it gives you an extra bargaining chip on them.
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Virginity, remember, a virgin body has the morning sheen of an unopened flower
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and the freshness of secret springs. It's your choice, ladies. Hold on to your glorious ripe fruit or...
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Jerry, if you're worried about your past, don't. This is a great opportunity to start fresh.
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Even though this morning I thumbed a ride and made a little lunch money?
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Jerry, I'm giving you a chance to reclaim your virginity.
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What? Don't think about sex. Don't think about sex. Don't think about sex.
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Wondering what? Hmm? If you could get me behind the dumpster, hike up my skirt and pound home?
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Well, I'm a virgin now. And this is one blushing rose you are not gonna deflower.
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I've actually seen this in a lot of 4B content, which is that they will be like, I am, you know,
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swearing off men entirely. Unless I find a really good man who is valued and aligned with me.
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Yeah, who's really good enough. Who's qualified enough. Then he might be.
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Because the other issue is that... Now, I would say a huge proportion of this, again,
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is women who are already voluntarily celibate, who have for 17 years not dated men,
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and they're very happy that way. But they're not the ones shouting about 4B stuff from the hilltop.
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I actually disagree pretty strongly here. I have noticed, and I see this in the comments section
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of videos about the majority, at least within the West and the US, people who identify as 4B.
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Many of them were fem cells before this. They were women who were... Now, it's not that they're
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unable to find somebody to sleep with them. It's that nobody who they would qualify as good enough
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for them is interested in sleeping with them. And now they can re-identify as being a reactionary,
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doing what they were already doing. Yes, and there's definitely a lot of... That is a very
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real faction of this movement. There's another faction that even, for example, there's a YouTube
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channel, I think called Spoiled Girlies or something, that is basically Red Pal for women.
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You know, it's about... How does she say it? Like, it's basically just about getting as much resources
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as you can as a woman and getting that man that you want, I think. And she's done multiple videos
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on the 4B's movement and appropriated it and acted as though she's a part of it. And she supports
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it and this is about taking back your power. She also talks weirdly about how women hold the power
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to extinguish entire ethnicities. She literally says that. I kid you not. So I will send you a link
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to that. I guess she means their own ethnicity, right? Like, that's her...
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She's just trying to highlight in her view the power that women have. So she's talking about how we can
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end lineages by opting out. How we can literally end ethnicities by opting out.
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She's Asian, which is... It's an extra bad look.
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Well, because that's... I mean, yeah, 4B is helping to end the ethnicity of South Koreans.
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You know, it's so interesting, just as a tangent here, but I found this really interesting. Is that
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in the pronatalist movement, all of the Asian, like I know, Asians who are active in the pronatalist
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movement, none of them have kids or are really trying to have kids. But hilariously, many of the
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most famous pronatalists are married to Asian people and you wouldn't know it and have tons of kids.
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But the non-Asian partner is the one who's famous, specifically here, both...
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I won't name people. But multiple of the most famous pronatalists who you definitely know of,
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I'd actually say maybe like 50% of your pronatalist mental space are people who are having Asian kids
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Because a lot of people are anonymous online, but that's okay.
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I just want to point out, though, that this YouTuber is exemplif...
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This YouTuber exemplifies a genre or a sub-faction of 4B that is basically pick-me's or women who
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see men as resources to leverage and are using this movement as a part of that. Also, in the way that
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they talk about it, in the way that you see a lot of 4B content online, especially at least from
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American women, it's super not feminist. It... because it doesn't... it does not pass a Bechtel test,
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right? Like a Bechtel test in a movie, I think you have to have two female characters talk for longer
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than five minutes about something other than guys.
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And 4Bs, it's all about their relation to men and it's men in this and men in that, and it's just all about how
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women relate to men. And what I like about MGTOW is at least a lot of the content...
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It also fails like the male version of a Bechtel test, but the best MGTOW content is just about
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Actually, this is really interesting that you mentioned this, is that the MGTOW content
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doesn't masturbate, and I do think that it is masturbatory to an extent, about all of the women who
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aren't going to be getting sexual access to them, whereas when women go into 4B stuff,
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it is a constant, almost performative, look at how desired I am and everyone I'm turning away.
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You're right, it's weirdly MGTOW content that is about women is about how terrible women are,
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whereas it seems the most 4B content I see is still about me, the woman, my power, my womb, my...
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And this, this theme of take back your power, what on earth? How is, how is isolating yourself
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in society taking back your power? That is disempowering you.
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Well, it's also going to lead to the opposite of what they want, which is that men who previously
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they might have communicated their beliefs to are now just not going to be exposed to a
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progressive perspective at all. Yeah, well, the other thing that's crazy, too, is this,
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this concept that they have of we hold the power of life. Well, you don't, if you opt out of having
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kids, it's gone. The thing that made you unique from a gender standpoint is completely carved out,
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and that's another reason why I really don't think these women are taking this seriously. They plan on
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getting a guy. That's not true. They plan on having kids. The ovaries removed and stuff,
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like they're, they're very... No, yeah, and definitely there's, there's different sub-actions
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of this. They're absolutely the women who are basically had always planned on going their own
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way, and now they have a movement they can put their name to. But here's another piece of evidence
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as to why I think this is more about women who plan on ending up with men anyway. Another
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name for this movement that American women are giving to it is like the Lysistrata movement.
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Are you familiar with Lysistrata? Did you have to read that? We're going to talk about it in detail
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when I get to the data part of this. Okay, then dive into it. You want me to immediately dive
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into it? Okay. Well, no, well, I can, I can talk about it, but I mean, like the context of it is
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Lysistrata is a Greek comedy in which women decide to deny sex to men to try to end the Peloponnesian
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War. But it's a, it's a comedy. It's a joke. And actually Lysistrata herself at one point during the
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play when making the pitch an argument to, to a man as to why the war needs to end is that it is
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a travesty to young Greek women that the men are off fighting battles, depriving these women of the
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ability to become mothers. I just, there was never a plan. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'll go through the
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full Lysistrata here. So this was a play that was performed. If you want to go to our One
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Civilization video to like contrast this with other cultures and how far behind they are
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in 411 BC, it was a comic about a woman's mission to end the Peloponnesian War between the Greek
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city-states by denying men and the, some examples of scenes in it that I found particularly interesting.
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The magistrate then arrives with some Sicilian archers, the Athenian version of police constables.
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He reflects on the nature of women, their devotion to wine, promiscuous sex, and exotic cults,
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such as sabbius and Adonis. But above all, he blames men for the poor supervision of their women
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folk. So basically the police comes up to settle everything down and he's like, yeah, but women,
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wow, they really love getting drunk. And their MLMs and their, yeah, and their weird witchy
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things is basically what he's saying. Like, and this is, this is being done 400 BC, by the way.
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Then in the part that you're talking about where she explains that they should feel pity for the
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young childless women who are aging at home while the men are away on their endless campaigns,
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the magistrate points out that men also age. In response, she reminds him that men can marry at
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any age, whereas a woman only has a short time before she is considered old. Which one, I love
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that like you have this feminist, anti-feminist argument captured in this like almost half a
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century or have a millennial before Christ play, which is wild here. And then the debate is continued
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between the chorus of old men and the chorus of old women until Lysistrata returns to the stage
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with the news that her comrades are desperate for sex and they are beginning to desert on the
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silliest of pretexts. Specifically, one example woman says that she has to go home to air her fabrics
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by spreading them on the bed. And in the end, Lysistrata does win and ends up ending the war.
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No one needs to make, if they haven't already, a cheesy porn movie. Because the whole thing is
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already basically a really bad porn content. Like, you know, what, didn't a spartan show up to the
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gates with a giant boner or something? Yes, he shows up with a burden, they say,
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but it's obviously a large boner, yes. Yeah, and it's just like, oh, you've banned me from sex.
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And like, they're all these, like, it just, it's clearly, it just, it's a very comedic,
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almost, almost pornographic play. And, but the whole thing also is such a joke. Women didn't
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have rights at that time. It was just like, ha, ha, ha, wouldn't it be funny if women, it's like,
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nothing about women's rights. Yes. And that's what's so annoying about people like women being
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like, oh, well, this is the Lysistrata movement. Oh, like that joke play about women being idiots and
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like, oh, and it'd be funny if they did this. They could never do that though because they
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don't have any rights. Plus it wasn't even about women not wanting to have sex or have kids because
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they did. And the whole reason they were trying to stop the war wasn't that they didn't like war,
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it was that they wanted to have kids. They wanted to have more kids. Oh, like clearly this is not
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a movement that's being taken seriously. It's not. Okay, maybe, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm gonna go
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into the history of the movement because I want this to be the, yes, the all end all source on the
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movement if you're looking for a nation. I think that the, an important part of this history,
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and I hope that you highlight it too, is the, the South Korean context, because when it's,
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when it's moved over to an American context, that's when I feel like the real pantomime begins.
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That's when it becomes a complete joke. Well, we'll, we'll talk about why it becomes a complete
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joke because it actually means something completely different when it's being done in an American
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context. Yes. But we've talked about the statistic before, but it's important to reevaluate here,
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which is that 79.1% of young women and 72.1% of young men want to leave Korea and 83.1% of young
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women and 78.4% of young men consider Korea hell. That's 83% of women in South Korea consider their
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country and life hell. In fact, they take into calling their lives hell Joseon, or that's what,
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what Korea is for them. This catchphrase has become popular among Koreans in recent years to
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describe their country, with a Joseon being the name of a long dead Korean kingdom. So they also
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have a new term Tal Jo, a promptmento compromising leave and Joseon, which vernacularly might be
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translated to escape hell. Now, in terms of this exploding was in the US, you had Google searches
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for the 4B movement increased 450% following the election. Wow.
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Yeah. Representing over 200,000 people searching the term. Now I had, yeah, I had started here was
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talking about a little bit about the American version and then we'll get to the Korean version.
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Um, because I want to point out that this is a real thing that's happening here. So
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one person was telling Newswake, Brooke Arrington, that I fear the Handmaid's Tale will become a
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reality. And she did a popular video on this and you should see our Handmaid's Tale about this video,
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where I do feel that part of this is sexual role play for women about how desired they are.
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Taking themselves off a sexual marketplace is going to affect political outcomes and make
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Trumpers like change their ways and everything like that.
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Well, and it's also a great way to feel desired without facing that rejection,
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because I think a lot of women, if they actually put themselves on the market, they would discover
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how few people actually want them. Not just because they themselves are undesirable. And
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you'll see this, like a lot of the women who are here and who are like, I'm going to take away my
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beauty, like by shaving my head. And it's like, dude, you do not look that great to start with.
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Not to be mean, but like, I'm just saying on a inundating, like it's very much a, you know,
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the, the famous meme of like, no man whose lips have touched alcohol will touch these lips.
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It was a bunch of like venomous haggadans. Well, but anyway, so like already, but this
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enables them to think, well, if I had tried, if I wasn't removing myself from the market,
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I would be so desired. And you see things like a quote from this woman is I plan to do as much
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decentering of men as possible beyond the groundwork I have already started. This means not appealing to
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the male gaze and not allowing for myself to be part of a system that directly benefits men.
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So basically she's just going to stop trying and not feel bad about stopping trying.
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Well, but again, my point is, this is one of the most, this is one of the most effective ways
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to feel as though you are desired, or you would have been desired by, by removing the potentiality
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of rejection. They can't judge you because you, you intentionally ruined yourself. Your, your crop
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doesn't grow because you intentionally salted the earth. It's not because I'm a bad farmer. It's because
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I salted the earth. So that's what they're doing. And they don't need to face the emotional
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consequences for that, which I think, you know, I think they realize now a lot of the women doing
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this are like 35 and are like, I'm not going to have kids now. And I'm like, bitch, you were not
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going to have kids. You are way too old to find a husband at this point. And it is a way for them to
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feel like they didn't lose the game. Yes. And that's, that's meaningful again. So they're not
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in the movement for the movement. They're in the movement to feel good about themselves for some
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reason. Not that we don't do that for everything, but. And as I pointed out was a conservative
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reaction. So this news article goes over things like Bernadine Bluntley from Texas, who was a popular
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Instagram influencer says telling women to guard their hearts, bodies, and wombs for years,
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whatever causes women to come to the same conclusion is welcome to me. A lot of my
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Christian conservative followers on social media are beyond thrilled to welcome the American 4B
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movement because this is what we've been trying to explain to them for so long, rejecting the
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sexual revolution mindset of casual sex for your own good. When God sets the rules and boundaries,
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it wasn't to withhold freedom and fun from us. It was to secure protection and stability and joy.
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This is the mother of six, who's 34 years old. She goes on to say, being intentional in your
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dating and relationships is a game changer. Saving sex for marriage, which you kind of did weirdly,
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will absolutely level up your life. Being highly selective about which man you'll have and raise
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children with is crucial. And I think that this is really interesting. Mary Harrington went on a long
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thing about how good this is. Actually, Christine Clark, the founder of Girl Defined, which is a
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biblical woman thing. She said in response to this, who is the one getting punished here?
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Okay. Anyway. Yeah. She just says, who's the one getting punished here? Basically pointing out that
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women have sexual desires as well, and you're going to destroy your relationships over this. What are you
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doing? But I wanted to talk about where this started in Korea, because I think that people don't
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understand how insane this movement was at its beginning. And you are going to be shocked by this.
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Hold on. Before you start this, I just want to make sure that some of the groundwork is laid that
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the 4B movement came after a period that lasted really long, that was pretty negative toward women
00:23:46.880
in South Korea. Like astoundingly that there was still selective abortion against female babies in the
00:23:55.440
nineties. That's when you and I were kids. Okay. That is, I mean, I'm just saying the background for this
00:24:03.120
is not insane that, that women have been unliked by Korean culture. And I could see people looking
00:24:09.440
to that and being a little mad about it. So I just want to say this isn't coming.
00:24:13.520
Simone, you're going to, you're going to feel bad about those words in just a second.
00:24:16.880
All right. So it started out of something called WOMAD. This was around the period from 2017 to 2019.
00:24:25.600
WOMAD was a website for Korean women, sort of similar to Crystal Cafe in the United States,
00:24:31.840
in terms of the ideology of the website that formed after the other Korean feminist website or
00:24:40.000
female focused website, Meganalia issued a ban on the use of explicit slurs against gay men and
00:24:47.440
transgender people. So this was all of the extremist women in Korea who didn't want to be on a platform
00:24:56.080
that wouldn't let them use anti-gay and transphobic slurs. Just to give you an idea of how transphobic
00:25:02.240
the movement was to start. WOMAD users responded to discrimination in South Korea by mirroring. So
00:25:10.720
they attempted to discriminate against men actively and aggressively. And so you might be like, oh,
00:25:19.280
how bad is that? Well, for example, it's Reddit where you can upvote or downvote things. The upvote
00:25:25.760
symbol is a swastika, by the way. Oh, okay. This is very 4chan-y. They're going for it. They're going
00:25:33.520
for it. The favicon for the website is a vulva with a red dot at the center representing both period blood
00:25:41.440
and fire. Now, there have been multiple posts on the site in 2016, for example, around when this was
00:25:51.200
starting, that claimed that they had killed men with titles such as, I fed men coffee mixed with
00:25:58.640
anti-freeze liquid, end quote. And quote, I killed a man by pushing him into a reservoir, end quote.
00:26:05.440
And you might think that these are just shit posts. Yeah. Here's the problem. Do they correspond with,
00:26:15.840
they do not correspond with news or like... No, hold on. In November 19th, 2017,
00:26:22.720
a member wrote a post on the WOMAD forum claiming that she had drugged and graped an Australian boy.
00:26:29.360
She uploaded photos and videos allegedly portraying the grape. Oh. And WOMAD members
00:26:35.600
showed their support for the writer, leaving comments saying that they would pay to watch
00:26:40.320
the videos of the sexual assault. Oh. Now, a number of Korean media outlets have identified
00:26:48.560
the woman as an au pair for an Australian boy. Wait, so this was a young, it wasn't,
00:26:53.120
we're not talking like a boy because they're male, like we're talking about underage. Yeah.
00:26:57.360
Yeah. The suspect reportedly committed the assault two days into her job as an au pair. And in the
00:27:05.760
post, which was made in the Korean language, the netizen says that she had been biding her time to,
00:27:11.440
quote, have a taste of a Western boy since living in Australia, end quote. End quote.
00:27:17.520
Now, what's interesting is that while some things are said au pair, this doesn't look like she was
00:27:22.000
an au pair. She said, quote, where I work has various facilities linked together. And this includes
00:27:27.040
his residences with an outdoor pool. A cute boy kept catching my eye at the pool. And I've set my
00:27:33.440
mark on him. End quote. The suspect was arrested Monday after she posted a detailed account on a
00:27:40.000
Korean extremist misandry website of her. The post claimed that she drugged and graped her victim,
00:27:45.520
which she did by crushing up sleeping pills and included screenshots. The WOMAD members defended her,
00:27:52.960
claiming that Armin Lee was innocent and conducted an online phone raiser for her
00:27:59.360
lawyer appointment. In addition, they sent a petition to the Australian police to release Armin Lee and
00:28:05.520
protested the victim's parents. Now, they specifically what they claimed is that, quote,
00:28:12.320
Lolita is a crime. Shotokan is a member of sexual preference. So if you don't know, Lolita is when you
00:28:18.240
find underage women attractive. Shotokan is when you find underage men attractive. Wow.
00:28:26.720
she did this. It was proven and the forum supported her and fundraised for her and asked her to send a video.
00:28:40.960
This is the 4chan equivalent of female comedians aren't funny, right? So, like, female comedians
00:28:53.200
Hey, girls are funny, Wendy. Okay, get over it. Just do women's comedy stuff. You know, talk about
00:28:57.040
how fat you are and how you want to have sex with guys and then say my vagina a lot.
00:29:03.120
And that's just the kind of sexist bullcrap that's going to keep you in the kitchen. Sit your ass down.
00:29:08.640
And female 4channers, when they troll, it's just
00:29:15.440
disturbing. 4chan's always been pretty accepting of women.
00:29:18.160
Yeah, well, yeah, when 4chan trolls, it's like, oh, let's let's find the flag that Shia LaBeouf has
00:29:29.440
Like creepy chan and stuff like that. There's been a lot of women who've been treated with respect on 4chan if they
00:29:35.360
Well, and I'm not saying that 4chan is misogynist.
00:29:40.480
True, but 4chan has never done anything like this.
00:29:44.160
Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. It's just like female comedians aren't funny.
00:29:48.080
The female 4channers, like the female version of it, it just does really creepy bad stuff instead of fun, cool stuff.
00:29:55.680
Yeah, just women just women seem to be ruining. There are just some things some areas where women just shouldn't
00:30:03.520
shouldn't play. And there are some places where men suck. I'm not saying this is, you know, it goes just one way, but
00:30:12.000
The lady has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of her own.
00:30:20.320
See how the men look at her with utter contempt.
00:30:22.800
I note here that the 4B movement came out of the escape the corset movement.
00:30:34.320
Which is reasonable considering the beauty standards in South Korea.
00:30:38.640
The amount of money that the average South Korean woman spends on cosmetics and beauty treatments
00:30:43.520
annually is off the chain. I think there is a completely logical market correction.
00:30:50.160
I also think that it has nothing to do with men. And to frame the anti-corset movement or whatever
00:30:55.280
they call it, that 2016 origins backlash against dolling yourself up in South Korea has more to do with
00:31:04.800
lashing back against consumerism and also women's standards. Women wear makeup for women. They do not
00:31:10.480
wear makeup for men. They pretend that they do, but no, no, no. They wear it for female audiences.
00:31:15.760
Yeah. Well, and I think here what's really interesting is that the 4B movement in the United States is
00:31:21.200
fighting for something fundamentally different than what the 4B movement in Korea is.
00:31:24.800
So the no sex part of the Korean 4B movement is mostly because in Korea,
00:31:30.320
sex is the first stage of the funnel that leads to marriage. Not to deny men casual sex.
00:31:36.880
So if you look at rates of casual sex, around 66% of American women have casual sex.
00:31:42.560
Only 13.1% of Korean women have casual sex. It is very rare. As the one article stated,
00:31:49.440
4B's concern is primarily was rejecting the institution of marriage, says Jung,
00:31:53.840
with the other B's following naturally, quote, the inevitable result of the rejection of marriage,
00:31:59.600
end quote, says Jung. Quote, why? In a conservative society in South Korea,
00:32:04.160
dating is largely considered, especially by men, the prelude to marriage and marriage,
00:32:08.480
the prelude to childbirth. So for many who wish to remain civil and childless,
00:32:13.840
you end up not dating either, end quote. American women, in contrast, are more so calling
00:32:19.920
for the rejection of casual sexual relationships. But I find that really interesting.
00:32:26.560
And it fundamentally shows a sort of misunderstanding of the movement and what it's about by the American
00:32:33.200
audience. Well, yeah, I just, for me, the movement, the 4B, I think it's unfair to take an extremist
00:32:41.920
misinterest online forum and say that that's representative of the 4B movement.
00:32:45.680
It was the majority of the movement, Simone. I just, the 4B movement is mostly something
00:32:51.120
that was created in the Western imagination out of the types of people who went on this forum.
00:32:56.080
It never had more than I think like 4,000 members or something. It was not that big in South Korea.
00:33:00.480
Hmm. I'd also note here that it's largely been replaced in South Korea by something called the
00:33:07.040
6B4T movement, where they added a few additional things, specifically not buying products viewed as
00:33:13.680
sexist and supporting others within the movement. Whereas the T is about rejecting things like
00:33:19.840
beauty standards, hyposexualization, religion, and idol culture. So, you know, generally,
00:33:27.680
these are the people we want removing themselves from the genetic pool. Like we are obviously
00:33:31.520
benefiting from this. You can see our video on cucking and like that these people are cucking
00:33:35.360
themselves. But Simone, I wanted to hear your thoughts. Like I said, I still think that there
00:33:42.880
are, there are very South Korea specific reasons why some women would be having a backlash and why
00:33:48.000
they're, it's just, it's very complicated, but then it's being appropriated in the US by a bunch of
00:33:53.360
people seeking attention and trying to justify their existing indulgent actions and make them look
00:33:58.560
ideal, like ideologically driven. Similarly to people who argue that they aren't having children
00:34:03.440
for the environment. Now they're saying, well, I'm not having children because of four B's.
00:34:07.360
That's an excuse and it's signaling and it's not actually something that people take seriously as
00:34:11.840
is indicated by the way that it's presented. Well, I actually think that you, you capture something
00:34:16.160
really powerful here, which is to say that these individuals, largely speaking, had already removed
00:34:23.120
themselves from the gene pool. They had already removed themselves to the gene pool when they
00:34:26.560
decided to live a life of casual sex into their mid thirties. Like you're definitely not going to
00:34:31.840
end up married if you're doing that. Like I'm not personally like necessarily against casual sex
00:34:38.400
when individuals are like, let's say below the age of 25 and they're trying to, you know,
00:34:45.680
it's very hard to get partners without it in today's dating economy. I'm not saying it's the best
00:34:49.360
thing. I'm just saying that it is hard to get partners without it. So I understand the challenge
00:34:54.160
that young people are going through. But if you are having casual sex post the age of 25,
00:35:00.320
there's basically no shot. You're going to get married realistically. No shot. You're going to be part
00:35:05.440
of the next generation. No saw you're going to be, you know, and I think that these are people who
00:35:10.240
had already opted out of everything. Now they're just like adding a different flavor to what they
00:35:15.680
were already doing. And I note here back to my original thesis, because I do believe it. I think
00:35:21.280
that there is a faction of the democratic party that is becoming a traditionalist conservative faction
00:35:27.520
that is anti-sex, that is anti-porn, that is anti-trans people, that is two genders,
00:35:35.040
but that is also solidly Democrat because they want these state resources because they
00:35:40.080
don't expect to look for a husband either. And they don't want to, you know, support themselves.
00:35:44.720
So they're like, okay, who's going to support me? And I think that this faction represents
00:35:50.400
a new political entity that people are like, ha, ha, ha. They're accidentally conservative.
00:35:55.920
Where I think, no, ha, ha, ha. They're intentionally conservative,
00:35:59.760
but still Democrat. You just don't understand how much the parties have flipped.
00:36:05.040
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and as I think we'll discuss in some future podcasts,
00:36:15.520
the nature of conservatism has changed and there are now new factions that people don't really
00:36:20.960
understand yet, but I'm just, I'm still so, I'm kind of disappointed also in this movement and the
00:36:29.680
lack of modeling the other side that is being demonstrated once again, by some kind of reactionary
00:36:34.560
movement and that women are taking back their power and thinking that this is so punishing toward men
00:36:42.160
when they're really just hurting themselves. Andrew Tate tweeted something along the lines of,
00:36:46.240
now you don't even need abortions. Like he, this doesn't hurt anyone except for them. And it's
00:36:54.000
disappointing that we have reached a point at which many people don't under, they don't have the tool
00:37:03.120
set to model what other people would be thinking or how they would react to them. They can only think
00:37:08.240
of things in terms of themselves. And we've seen this with our toddlers that they, there is this point
00:37:15.360
at which they begin to realize that there are other people who have their own perspectives and
00:37:22.080
wants and needs. And it's so exciting when they get out of that phase of everything being only in
00:37:28.160
relation to themselves and their wants, and they can't possibly understand that people might see
00:37:32.400
things differently or view them from a third party perspective. It's scary that I'm seeing TikTok videos
00:37:39.600
of people presumably in their twenties and thirties who don't seem to have gone beyond that toddler
00:37:45.920
phase, or if they ever did get there, it's, they've reverted back to this proto phase of everything
00:37:54.960
in terms of themselves. Well, I can see this on the male side in Korea as well. Are you, are you familiar
00:38:01.120
with the finger pinching conspiracy theory? Oh yes. Where they think that every time someone poses,
00:38:08.320
like there's a photo of them, they're trying to make some dig at men. Yeah. So in Korea,
00:38:13.200
it's like considered incredibly offensive to like, make this sign. Because it implies you're
00:38:18.240
a small penis, right? Yeah. If it's accidentally made in an ad or something like that, men will
00:38:22.880
actually go protest. Like men, like large groups of men will actually protest in front of like
00:38:28.640
companies because somebody in a, like a video game accidentally had this depiction being made.
00:38:35.360
They see it as an extremely offensive symbol. Like in the U S like if you accidentally put a swastika
00:38:40.160
in something, it is really interesting. I actually probably bigger than in the U S if you accidentally
00:38:44.880
put a swastika in something. Yeah. That's weird. But also, yeah, I think that is another indication of
00:38:55.200
what's going on in South Korea. They've got this whole different set of baggage that, that is now
00:39:02.240
reverberating off itself. What started the 4B movement in South Korea was the murder of a woman,
00:39:10.000
a young woman by somebody who felt that they were angry at society because women didn't want to date
00:39:14.320
them. And then when they were trialed and they were put in jail for 30 years, it's not an automatic
00:39:18.080
life sentence for murder in Korea. They were not given a jail sentence for a hate crime. And that
00:39:25.040
really pissed off a lot of women in like these forums as to why it was not considered a hate
00:39:30.640
crime. I find this pretty interesting and actually compelling for my perspective. Cause at first I was
00:39:34.560
like, yeah, that seems like a hate crime. Well, it turns out the guy had pretty severe schizophrenia
00:39:38.240
and they were like, it's obviously a mental health issue. Like, and I'm like, okay, you,
00:39:41.760
I used to work with people at schizophrenia. That was my job studying schizophrenia.
00:39:45.680
Um, and I wouldn't really hold one of them accountable for something they said that was offensive by
00:39:50.960
mainstream societal standards. I remember one of our patients killed a random person because he
00:39:55.120
thought they were a witch. Like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Not very political. I mean, unless, I don't know.
00:40:01.680
It's not a hate crime in the way that they mean hate crime. It's like, yeah, there's hate,
00:40:05.840
but it's, it's crazy hate. So it's crazy hate. It's not like a logical hate.
00:40:14.240
Anyway, love you to Desdemone. Are you going to go 4B on me? Are you gonna
00:40:17.600
I, I, if I make some kind of rebellion someday, I, it's going to have to be a lot smarter than that.
00:40:28.240
And I'm not the brightest bulb in the bucket, but I'm not going to, this was just such a self-owned
00:40:37.040
and it, have you started making Malcolm type mixed metaphors in the bucket?
00:40:42.480
I really love your mixed metaphors. I'm just trying to, trying to like, make it a family thing.
00:40:47.520
You know, this is a Collins way of speaking. We have to have our weird cult speak. Right. So.
00:40:55.520
What's even the point of being in a cult if you don't have your weird way of talking?
00:40:59.040
Yeah. Then how do they know that you're in a cult aside from the clothing and
00:41:04.240
I really had to find out more about this Romanian thing that you told me. So apparently our podcast is
00:41:08.960
the seventh most popular podcast in Romania by some statistics, at least English language podcast.
00:41:15.600
And I want to figure out what's going on there. Like why?
00:41:18.480
So if you're in Romania, please tell us why you're watching, but we're really glad that you're here.
00:41:22.960
Yeah. I've noticed we do have an unusually large user base in South Eastern Europe,
00:41:26.640
which is interesting. Part of me wonders that maybe like Russian bots have accidentally been promoting us.
00:41:31.520
I don't know. Have we said that many pro Russia things?
00:41:36.560
No, we're pretty anti Russia. So to the extent where I feel a little bad about it, you know, like
00:41:42.480
the only group we're probably more anti than anti Russia on this podcast is Catholic.
00:41:46.800
And like, those are like the two things we're probably known for is like having a bias.
00:41:52.240
No, we don't actually have a real bias against these groups. Like I like Russians and everything
00:41:56.320
like that. But they're the two groups that I like joke about the most because in terms of like
00:42:00.800
opposing sports teams, they're like the two clearest opposing sports teams to our particular
00:42:09.840
Well, your kids are part Russian, so you better be okay with that.
00:42:13.520
Yeah. Simone's part Russian. So, but anyway, what am I making you for dinner?
00:42:18.720
What are you making me for dinner? I really don't know what you're planning for tonight.
00:42:21.600
I could do leftovers. I mean, I'm just going to hold on. I know what I want for dinner tonight.
00:42:29.440
Yeah. Oh, I could cut up the sausage into fried rice.
00:42:33.760
Little tiny triangles of it. No, no. Okay. I want tomato soup and girl cheese.
00:42:41.840
That is an easy stand boy. So spectacular girl cheese. We got to start going through the tomato
00:42:46.720
soup. So let's do this. All right. It's on. I'll get started. And will you pick up the kids?
00:42:53.360
Yeah, I will. All right. I love you, Malcolm. I love you too, Simone. You're a great wife.
00:42:59.440
See you soon. And you are the perfect husband and I love you and you're really pretty. And I'm glad that
00:43:05.040
I cut you first. You can't end on the nice thing. I love your voice and I love your wiggles.
00:43:12.880
And I love this strange sound that you make when you're falling asleep. That sounds like
00:43:16.400
a surfacing whale. You go. I don't know why you do it, but it's so cute. I just love you. I just
00:43:23.200
love you. It's so annoying. My favorite thing is the sound you make when you chew. It's so cute.
00:43:28.080
Oh my God. Why are you like this? I don't know. No, honestly, I'm not okay with this. My wife's,
00:43:35.520
my wife is gay. I need to handle this. I'm super gay for you. Yeah. What you gonna do? Anyway,
00:43:42.560
though. I love you. I'll see you downstairs. See ya. I got the Krampus costume. I had to buy a
00:43:49.520
different hat than the one I wanted, a different face than the one I wanted because the one I
00:43:53.200
wanted wasn't gonna arrive till after Christmas. But the one I ended up getting is even more goat-like
00:43:57.280
and elaborate, so. As long as it's goat-like, that's kind of the rule. Oh, it's very goat-like.
00:44:01.920
Is Krampus outside of the dark? Krampus outside in the dark? I think so.
00:44:08.000
And Krampus has huge claws. It even has a mask on it. Really? Yeah, huge claws in his scary face.
00:44:18.880
Yeah. Well, I'm very proud of you for going and looking at Krampus. Do you think he was like
00:44:24.880
a mystery? Were you trying to solve him like a mystery monster? Yeah. Hi.
00:44:28.960
Hi. I think it's Krampus, Mommy. You think it's Krampus? Yes, I hide under my banquet.
00:44:42.880
Guys? Daddy, Mommy. Dad's asleep. He always goes to sleep early.
00:44:47.280
I think Dad is still up in the monster costume. That's a really interesting mystery-solving
00:44:54.160
proposition, but I think it was Krampus. What are you guys up to? We're going to take a ride on it.
00:45:01.040
You're going to take a ride on it? Where are you going to go? We're going to go to Adventure City.