Based Camp - May 15, 2024


Only the Pluralistic & Technophilic Pronatalist will Survive


Episode Stats

Length

31 minutes

Words per Minute

179.21184

Word Count

5,730

Sentence Count

302

Misogynist Sentences

3

Hate Speech Sentences

22


Summary

In this episode, we talk about why the pro-natalist, technophilic, pro-industry movement is so concerned about population decline and falling fertility rates, and why we should be worried about it. We are joined by Simone Goldstein, a sociologist, philosopher, and writer, to discuss why technology is a threat to our cultural and economic well-being.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 I love a lot of these technophobic groups.
00:00:01.800 I think, like Louise Perry has recently on her podcast, and she's like, I think God doesn't
00:00:04.700 want us engaging with technology.
00:00:06.000 If you take a low-tech approach, you are dooming your culture as much as the people who are
00:00:11.060 chemically castrating their children right now.
00:00:12.640 There is a reason we cling to industry.
00:00:14.620 That is what gives us our cultural autonomy and gives us an ability to survive in the
00:00:19.480 world that we're heading into, which is going to be much more aggressive, interculturally
00:00:24.620 speaking, than the world we're in today.
00:00:26.840 If you do something as simple as just say, okay, all computers, all internet is fine,
00:00:31.220 just no AI, right?
00:00:33.660 You are at such an enormous, both military and economic disadvantage.
00:00:39.720 The urban monoculture has been good for many of these groups in one ways, and that they
00:00:43.240 have imposed a sort of detente on our society.
00:00:46.340 You, if you're living in the developed world, generally do not have to worry about people
00:00:51.420 of other cultural groups coming and sterilizing you or killing you.
00:00:55.020 That will not be the case when the urban monoculture falls.
00:00:59.300 It's existential that you're pluralistic.
00:01:01.320 If you are not a group that has a chance at a play for the dominant culture in the earth,
00:01:07.480 for example, suppose you're a Catholic right now.
00:01:09.600 If they try to take the, we will turn everywhere we live into the Catholic caliphate mindset,
00:01:14.960 and we will kick out the non-Catholics, then any region where Catholics are not the dominant
00:01:20.240 population, they are now a threat to all of the other populations.
00:01:23.460 If you get one or two Catholic caliphates set up, now all Catholics become a problem.
00:01:29.160 This is why this is such a dangerous pathway.
00:01:32.300 Would you like to know more?
00:01:33.620 Hello, Simone!
00:01:34.560 It's exciting to be talking to you today.
00:01:36.480 Today, we are going to be addressing why we have so ardently sided with the technophilic
00:01:46.340 pro-industry side of the pro-natalist movement.
00:01:50.120 Because if you look at the wider landscape of the pro-natalist movement, there are broadly
00:01:55.740 two solutions.
00:01:56.680 One is to say, if society isn't working right now, like with all the changes we've had,
00:02:02.320 let's go back to a time when it did work.
00:02:04.580 The other solution is ours is to say, let's take elements from a time that did work.
00:02:08.940 Let's riff on that, but let's adapt them to be pro-technology and pro-industry so we as
00:02:16.960 a species can keep developing in the direction we're developing today.
00:02:20.880 And this is, I think to a lot of people, we wrote a piece in Emporia about why we chose
00:02:26.600 to build a religion for our family.
00:02:28.900 And one of the most common complaints was, why do you need to engage with industry?
00:02:34.220 And I think that there is the misinterpretation that for us, this is aesthetic, that we are
00:02:41.360 engaging because we just personally like industry, or we're just generally pro-science people,
00:02:47.660 or we believe in a future that's pro-science.
00:02:50.580 And that is not why.
00:02:53.680 Literally, any other approach is pointless.
00:02:58.320 Everyone who doesn't take this path has no real freedom or real cultural security.
00:03:08.380 So do you want to go further before I explain why, Simone, or?
00:03:11.860 Go into it.
00:03:14.400 The point being is if you, any group really only has cultural autonomy, i.e. are able to
00:03:22.780 practice their own cultural beliefs and pass those beliefs onto their kids.
00:03:25.980 In so far as nearby groups that are higher industry or higher technophilia, allow them
00:03:33.900 to.
00:03:34.720 The Amish and the Haridi are two very high fertility populations.
00:03:40.000 But both of these populations are incredibly low industry, incredibly low productivity, and
00:03:44.960 incredibly low science engagement.
00:03:47.000 And when I say science engagement, pushing science forwards.
00:03:49.460 It's stuff like the Haridi that like, I have a broad understanding of science.
00:03:52.320 They're not as like poo-poo as the Amish, but they're not particle physicists or working
00:03:56.220 on new types of computers and stuff like that, or auto drones and stuff.
00:04:00.780 This matters because these two groups are only really able to have cultural autonomy in so
00:04:07.980 far as they are in the good graces of their higher technophilia, higher industry neighbors.
00:04:13.940 This is the topic we have talked about before, and I wanted to do a full episode on it because
00:04:18.280 it's important to ultra freaking highlight here.
00:04:23.800 Okay?
00:04:25.060 Ultra, ultra highlight.
00:04:26.880 If the way that you are maintaining intergenerationally high fertility rates is from disengaging with
00:04:34.600 technology in a way that makes you less industrially productive than your neighbors, you do not
00:04:40.340 actually have cultural autonomy.
00:04:43.780 And people can say, yeah, but what if we all just agree to go this way?
00:04:47.420 And it's like, yeah, but we don't live in that world.
00:04:49.180 In other countries, there are going to be solutions to falling fertility rates that allow for technology
00:04:56.480 engagement and industry, but that also strip away things that we would see as existential.
00:05:03.680 For example, China might move towards forced inseminations, or some fascist country will,
00:05:08.020 and that will work to keep their fertility rate high and won't involve, oh, nobody engages
00:05:13.280 with a computer anymore.
00:05:14.640 Nobody engages with an AI anymore.
00:05:16.880 Some companies will likely begin to breed their own workers.
00:05:19.480 We've talked about this before.
00:05:20.540 When that becomes a major issue, you're going to have companies breeding them, likely without
00:05:23.280 certain proteins, so that the workers are permanently indebted to the company.
00:05:26.780 You have gone with a traditionalist religious approach, and that's how you got through that.
00:05:30.820 And that approach included disengagement with modern technology.
00:05:34.580 You are going to be stomped by these individuals, or at least have to live in a world under their
00:05:42.500 rules.
00:05:43.440 And I do not want my kids living under a world of totalitarian fascist rules.
00:05:48.580 And if people are like, come on, how could they really impose on us?
00:05:51.300 I'm sorry.
00:05:51.640 We live in a world where today, industry means better guns.
00:05:55.240 In the future, it's going to mean better Terminator robots.
00:05:58.260 The AIs we see today, you think somebody's not going to be putting those in robots and
00:06:02.940 giving them guns, especially if they're fascist-inclined?
00:06:06.180 Don't kid yourself, Sunny.
00:06:08.160 Well, I think the problem is that right now, there are many groups that are able to
00:06:14.540 exist with a false sense of security, because there are currently, in many places in the
00:06:20.420 world, governments that allow different groups to basically be exempt from military service
00:06:26.200 and taxes and even having to work while maintaining their cultural autonomy.
00:06:31.860 And these groups can also, and there's this impression that one, we're allowed to do this
00:06:36.740 and it's working now and it's fine.
00:06:38.680 And two, we have way higher birth rates than the main culture.
00:06:42.420 So we're just going to be giant.
00:06:44.420 And I think there's just this lack of awareness or people are conveniently forgetting that it is
00:06:50.640 these governments that are low fertility, that are currently bankrolling and also actively
00:06:56.100 protecting the rights of these groups.
00:06:58.840 And that as soon as those groups do inevitably disappear, there will be no such protections
00:07:04.380 and there will be no such bankrolling and you're going to need to find a different solution.
00:07:09.720 So I think that's another really important point.
00:07:12.340 You pointed out quite controversially something that Richard Hanania tweeted about recently,
00:07:16.160 which is that Hamas does have a plan, did have a plan when invading or attacking on October
00:07:22.040 7th for Israel.
00:07:23.400 And the plan was not to completely get rid of all the Jews in Israel, but rather basically
00:07:29.120 keep some on like a farming basis to have them continue to make money and hold up their
00:07:33.400 lifestyle.
00:07:34.620 And you really wanted to take the most like technologically competent and essentially enslave
00:07:38.600 them.
00:07:39.380 Yes.
00:07:39.740 And I think quite frankly, that's the only option, like that they are the most aware of the
00:07:44.660 actual dynamic at play of groups that are currently doing their own thing, but that also understand
00:07:51.420 that they want to be parasitic within a larger ecosystem.
00:07:54.980 There are many other groups that are just, I guess, burying their heads in the sand or not
00:08:01.800 thinking at all about the longer term implications of what's going on.
00:08:05.780 And this even includes, to a certain extent, the ultra-Orthodox in Israel who are not serving
00:08:12.380 in the military, who are not contributing economically in the same way to Israel as a
00:08:19.420 nation, they also are going to be, if they don't somehow manage to capture and enslave
00:08:24.640 the productive Jews in Israel, going to run out of government support and going to run out of
00:08:29.560 protection when the lower fertility but higher productivity group disappears.
00:08:34.900 Keep in mind, like when people stop sending them aid money, the people sending them aid money are
00:08:38.780 these incredibly low fertility groups that control a lot of the West government today.
00:08:42.780 When they disappear, a lot of these individuals are going to lose the cash flows that are going
00:08:46.780 into their countries and they're going to be starving to death in mass and they will be
00:08:51.380 attacking their neighbors.
00:08:52.680 A point that you made that I just cannot highlight enough is I think that you are overly focusing
00:08:57.740 this on the extremist cases like the Haridi and stuff like that, where I'm talking about it in
00:09:02.920 cases like the Tradcast who thinks that they can get away without their kids learning to use
00:09:07.560 computers or AI.
00:09:08.940 If you do something as simple as just say, okay, all computers, all internet is fine, just
00:09:13.160 no AI, right?
00:09:15.520 You are at such an enormous, both military and economic disadvantage.
00:09:21.120 And what you point out here is that we have lived under a society, the urban monoculture has
00:09:26.600 been good for many of these groups in one ways and that they have imposed a sort of detente
00:09:30.200 on our society.
00:09:31.540 You, if you're living in the developed world, generally do not have to worry about people
00:09:36.740 of other cultural groups coming and sterilizing you or killing you.
00:09:40.920 That will not be the case when the urban monoculture falls.
00:09:44.640 Oh, so you're even, yeah, you're even just talking about moderate groups that are trying
00:09:48.220 to do their own thing.
00:09:50.000 Yeah.
00:09:50.380 I'm talking about groups that are like, I don't let my kids on the internet.
00:09:53.000 I don't let my, you can maintain a level of technological advancement and understanding
00:09:58.680 without your kids engaging with the internet, fine.
00:10:01.740 But if this is hampering their understanding of cutting edge technology, that is going to
00:10:10.380 be hugely deleterious to your group's ability to act autonomously into the future.
00:10:18.200 Um, yeah, a lot of it's, you can just look at this in much simpler microcosms, like kids
00:10:24.380 growing up, kids who become dependent on trust funds or their parents and who remain so throughout
00:10:30.320 their lives, ultimately have to live under the thumbs of their parents and live at the
00:10:34.060 whims of their parents.
00:10:34.880 And yes, there are some kids who actively and openly hate their parents and continue to
00:10:39.500 receive financial and emotional support from them.
00:10:41.940 Um, they're still living at the whims of those parents.
00:10:46.820 And if those parents grow a pair or die or run out of money, they will not be able to
00:10:53.420 maintain those lifestyles.
00:10:54.940 And we all understand that dynamic.
00:10:56.920 We just don't seem to understand it on a cultural level.
00:10:59.600 But I think something that is not clear to these groups is that again, they've gotten so used
00:11:04.380 to the detente that's been enforced by the urban monoculture that they don't see that pretty
00:11:10.220 much everyone who makes it through the fertility crucible is going to be much more culturally
00:11:16.820 centric than groups have historically been, with us probably being the most pluralistic
00:11:22.980 faction I can imagine realistically making it through.
00:11:25.440 Yeah, because the data shows that most other high fertility groups are going to be much more
00:11:29.860 suspicious and intolerant toward outgroups, meaning that you're going to have only us
00:11:37.200 pretty much trying to protect your rights to cultural autonomy.
00:11:41.580 The interesting thing is all pluralistic groups in making it through the crucible, like
00:11:45.580 people are like, why would you think all of the pluralistic groups would unite with your
00:11:50.040 group?
00:11:50.460 It's not that they're uniting with my group, but there just is an intrinsic reason for all
00:11:54.500 pluralistic groups to work together.
00:11:56.140 If pluralism is one of a group's values, then they can easily ally with every other group
00:12:04.280 attempting to make it through the crucible that have pluralism as one of their value systems.
00:12:09.040 That is why you choose pluralism.
00:12:11.120 That's another thing.
00:12:11.640 People are like, why are you pluralistic?
00:12:12.980 It's existential that you're pluralistic if you are not a group that has a chance at a play for the
00:12:19.120 dominant culture in the earth, or at least in your local region.
00:12:22.580 For example, you don't need to be pluralistic if you are some groups of Muslim, some groups of
00:12:28.060 Christian, but pretty much everyone else has to attempt the pluralism pathway, or you're going to be
00:12:33.280 quickly stopped.
00:12:34.460 By that, what I mean is, suppose even you're a Catholic right now, Catholic fertility rates are
00:12:38.640 absolutely crashing, conversion rates to Catholicism, it is the other way.
00:12:42.440 They are experiencing massive outflows right now.
00:12:45.240 If they try to take the, we will turn everywhere we live into the Catholic caliphate mindset that
00:12:50.800 some individuals are pushing, and we will kick out the non-Catholics, it's in any region where
00:12:56.260 Catholics are not the dominant population, which is honestly a lot of places where most of the
00:13:01.120 world's Catholics live, they are now a threat to all of the other populations.
00:13:05.420 If you get one or two Catholic caliphates set up, now all Catholics become a problem.
00:13:10.440 This is why this is such a dangerous pathway, this pathway of highlandering it, as we call it.
00:13:15.940 You know, it's just true, right?
00:13:17.680 Like they see, oh, if you get enough of you, you try to take over.
00:13:20.380 The urban monoculture is blind to cultures that do this.
00:13:23.240 As soon as the urban monoculture is gone, and you have some countries that weren't historically
00:13:29.600 Muslim, essentially become majority Muslim and begin to operate under a Muslim legal system
00:13:35.660 that is not kind to the existing people.
00:13:38.520 Groups like us, while pluralistic, will understand the threat that now means.
00:13:44.200 I'm like, oh, so if you became a dominant population here, you'd do the same thing.
00:13:48.100 So if they do that anywhere, that means they will do that everywhere.
00:13:52.060 Keep in mind, we're talking about same culture Muslims, and as we've said, there's a lot of
00:13:55.600 different cultures of Islam, but same culture, we can look and say, okay, do you have cultural
00:13:59.960 similarities with this group when they were in the minority, which could indicate that you'll
00:14:03.900 do the same when you're in the minority that you've done in this region.
00:14:07.080 And right now, the urban monoculture enforces the detente.
00:14:12.020 In the future, even pluralistic groups like us are going to be much more suspicious and
00:14:18.640 much more aggressive because the future is just going to be a more aggressive...
00:14:23.480 And we're super not tolerant of free riders.
00:14:25.720 You obviously were pointing to a lot of cultural examples where people are self-sustaining and
00:14:30.540 just doing their own thing.
00:14:31.640 But certainly, we wouldn't outlay any expenditure protecting maintaining infrastructure for or
00:14:38.260 otherwise supporting groups that were not actively involved in whatever ecosystems we
00:14:45.140 were trying to maintain for our own...
00:14:46.980 Oh, absolutely.
00:14:47.620 Yeah.
00:14:47.800 If they are not involved in our ecosystems, it doesn't make sense.
00:14:51.960 So we should probably explain this in plain English.
00:14:54.560 It means if we end up, if the world ends up basically carved sections of infrastructure,
00:15:01.100 power, roads, safety networks, we would not give those networks to people who are not actively
00:15:08.500 benefiting our group and our group's goals.
00:15:11.120 Which people can be like, what do you mean by that?
00:15:14.520 In society today, if you hate America, you can still use American roads.
00:15:19.180 You can still use American services.
00:15:21.880 You can still call the police.
00:15:24.020 In the future, that is part of the urban monoculture's value system, right?
00:15:30.340 In Dune, there's the famous line.
00:15:32.120 I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's something like, when you are in power, I ask
00:15:39.080 for freedom because that is according to your values.
00:15:42.240 When I am in power, I take your freedom because that is according to my values.
00:15:47.060 Yeah.
00:15:47.840 And that is...
00:15:48.920 Classic.
00:15:48.940 That is not the world that we're going to live in when the urban monoculture falls.
00:15:54.100 So there is actually like really specific reasons we cling to the two things that confuse a lot
00:16:03.260 of people who don't get it.
00:16:05.380 There is a reason we cling to pluralism.
00:16:07.780 Anyone who clings to pluralism can easily ally with everyone else who clings to pluralism,
00:16:11.840 which immediately gives you a ton of allies if you're a minority group,
00:16:15.120 which any experimental religious or cultural system is going to be.
00:16:18.660 There is a reason we cling to industry.
00:16:21.100 That is what gives us our cultural autonomy and gives us an ability to survive in the world
00:16:26.220 that we're heading into, which is going to be much more aggressive interculturally speaking
00:16:31.600 than the world we're in today.
00:16:33.560 And I would add that we're extremely sensitive to and judgmental about other people's demonstrated
00:16:41.040 industry when we think about who we're going to culturally partner with.
00:16:44.340 And there are lots of tiny dog whistles that can demonstrate whether or not someone holds
00:16:49.040 this view because it's not just from a cultural standpoint that people behave this way.
00:16:54.500 This is something that shows up in the types of businesses that they work with and invest in
00:16:58.620 and start to the way that they address their personal problems.
00:17:03.000 So, for example, Elon Musk is a very mission-driven person, right?
00:17:07.520 But he does not depend on the charity of others.
00:17:10.720 Whenever he wants to create a movement, he creates it through business.
00:17:14.240 It has to be able to be financially self-sustaining.
00:17:17.020 And whenever he does charity, it's typically to seed fund something that he himself has started
00:17:23.700 with his own hard-earned money that should be ultimately financially self-sustaining in the end.
00:17:29.380 And that is a sign of someone who is going to be culturally aligned with us in every other way
00:17:35.640 because we know that they are someone who, from first principles, will always take an approach
00:17:40.200 of industry rather than dependence.
00:17:42.480 If we meet someone and they, for example, run a nonprofit that depends on others' donations,
00:17:47.740 they may say until the cows come home that they are culturally industrious and independent.
00:17:52.360 But we know that from a philosophical standpoint, they're able to tolerate the charity of others
00:17:57.580 and depend on the teat of some other breast for their livelihood.
00:18:02.360 And as such, we cannot trust them to be a culturally aligned partner in the future, if that makes sense.
00:18:08.680 And this is actually a really interesting point that you're here.
00:18:11.640 And I think when we look at the world today and we are looking, okay, who do we want as allies?
00:18:17.500 Who do we talk with?
00:18:18.620 How do we build out this movement?
00:18:19.980 People can think because of our focus on fertility rates, what we're looking at is cultural groups,
00:18:25.660 or what we're looking for is cultural groups with large populations that can intergenerationally
00:18:30.700 motivate high fertility.
00:18:32.260 Actually, that is a pretty low thing on our list of what we're looking for.
00:18:36.980 A group could have a large population, but if they're not industrious,
00:18:39.760 then they just are not relevant in terms of long-term geopolitical power.
00:18:44.080 Yeah, their days are still numbered.
00:18:45.220 Yeah, their days are just as numbered as the urban monoculture in many ways.
00:18:49.900 It's just that once the detente of the urban monoculture falls,
00:18:53.220 they are going to be plowed by more aggressive neighbors that they haven't had to deal with in a thousand years.
00:19:00.660 But we are re-entering that world as we already see what's going on with Israel right now.
00:19:06.460 In the parts of the world that are less structured than our own,
00:19:09.520 that is going to be the reality for many of us.
00:19:12.220 But, so when we're looking, okay, who do we respect?
00:19:15.520 Who do we want to work with?
00:19:17.400 The core thing we're looking at is once a group is able to motivate,
00:19:21.640 or even plausibly motivate, above reproductive population,
00:19:25.640 what's their level of industry?
00:19:26.860 I don't care how big they are.
00:19:28.300 If they are high industry, and industry means technology as well.
00:19:32.060 Can they build an automated factory, for example?
00:19:36.240 Can they build semiconductors?
00:19:38.020 Groups that can't are just not particularly relevant to the great game in our perspective.
00:19:46.300 And I should note that within most religious traditions, there's various factions here.
00:19:50.640 There are, take Catholics, for example.
00:19:52.740 There are, like, Catholic naturalists that absolutely will not be useful in this respect.
00:19:59.160 And then there's Catholic non-naturalists that are, like, much more engaged with technology.
00:20:05.320 What is a Catholic naturalist?
00:20:06.760 This is a pretty big movement right now that you see, but, like, totally traditionalists
00:20:11.000 don't really engage with tech computers that much.
00:20:14.760 They might have the internet or something like that.
00:20:16.260 Like, Amish light, almost, you could say.
00:20:18.880 Amish, but 2010.
00:20:21.180 Super low tech.
00:20:22.000 Basically, they start, not super low tech, but they stopped at 2010 culture, 2010 tech levels.
00:20:27.240 And this is something you increasingly see.
00:20:29.040 This is a growing movement.
00:20:30.300 Oh, we won't allow human computer interface, for example.
00:20:35.440 Groups that don't allow human computer interface are just going to be out-competed by the groups
00:20:39.580 that do.
00:20:40.460 Oh, we won't build AI.
00:20:41.900 Okay, then you're not going to be able to compete with the groups that do.
00:20:45.000 Oh, we won't allow for genetic augmentation of humans.
00:20:48.820 Plausibly, you'll be able to compete if you are engaging enough with the high tech other
00:20:53.440 side of things, the AI, the human computer AI integration stuff.
00:20:57.760 Maybe you can compete, but you certainly can't compete if you're just going full naturalist.
00:21:02.220 It doesn't matter how good you are at judo or how big your muscles are or how much you
00:21:10.260 live the masculine ideal.
00:21:11.980 You cannot fight someone with a gun, okay?
00:21:15.260 And you certainly can't fight someone with 10,000, a factory that is auto-generating gun
00:21:21.940 drones that are looking for you.
00:21:24.660 You can't fight with that.
00:21:26.040 I'm reminded on views in other videos, the scene of Indiana Jones.
00:21:29.220 For people who are listening to this and they don't know what's playing whenever I do this,
00:21:43.820 it's the scene where there's a guy flailing around all the swords thinking he's super tough
00:21:48.180 and Indiana Jones just looks annoyed and shoots him.
00:21:50.580 Because you can't win a gunfight with a sword.
00:21:53.300 You can like one time out of 10, but realistically the odds are heavily against you and they are
00:22:00.180 becoming more lopsided as we go forwards.
00:22:03.020 Yeah.
00:22:03.740 So that's why we take these stances.
00:22:06.880 It's not a, and I think it's so easy to look at this and just think, oh, it's an aesthetic
00:22:11.380 stance.
00:22:11.900 And what I mean is those, oh, because they like technology.
00:22:14.060 Oh, because they came from the Bay Area originally and their culture comes from that.
00:22:17.480 And that's why they're so pro tech.
00:22:18.820 No, it's because we've sought through where things are going and you haven't.
00:22:22.380 And you don't understand that if you take a low tech approach, you are dooming your culture
00:22:28.220 as much as the people who are chemically castrating their children right now.
00:22:31.220 To be fair, I would say most people aren't thinking 200 plus years in the future.
00:22:35.900 And we are.
00:22:37.240 So that's not something we've evolved to do.
00:22:40.900 Humans have evolved.
00:22:41.820 It's just, it's humans.
00:22:43.940 Our evolutionary window is this one portion of the relay race where we're running.
00:22:48.720 And as soon as we patch the torch, pass the torch, it's over.
00:22:52.500 We're like, okay, and that's it.
00:22:54.280 So it's because we're thinking in terms of the full relay race, and they're thinking only
00:22:58.500 in terms of their sprint that this is coming up.
00:23:01.060 And that's fine.
00:23:02.440 But if you care about intergenerational durability, you're going to have to think 200 plus years
00:23:08.900 out.
00:23:09.340 That's all.
00:23:10.220 And I think a final question would be, then why do we so aggressively ally with these
00:23:14.240 technophobic groups?
00:23:15.460 Like, why?
00:23:16.760 Because we do.
00:23:17.200 I love a lot of these technophobic groups.
00:23:18.960 I think, like Louise Perry, I was recently on her podcast, and she's like, I think God
00:23:21.620 doesn't want us engaging with technology.
00:23:23.420 And this is the perspective that a lot of people have, like super high technology, the
00:23:26.720 level that we've gone in terms of technology, whether it's genetic technology or AI human
00:23:30.280 integration, or even just where we are with the internet and everything like that.
00:23:33.460 And I can understand this perspective, and I like these people, and I consider them our
00:23:37.020 allies today.
00:23:38.480 And so people are like, why do you do that if you don't think they're going to matter long
00:23:41.820 term?
00:23:42.060 And it's because they matter today.
00:23:43.340 They're frankly larger in number.
00:23:46.100 Like anyone who's being honest about this, like we're just pragmatic about everything.
00:23:49.120 Anyone who's being honest about this would know that the technophobic pathways to maintaining
00:23:53.920 high fertility rates have a higher population than us.
00:23:57.560 And so long as they're willing to be pluralistic, they're willing to ally with us.
00:24:01.060 And they're not particularly a threat to our group, so long as they are even vaguely pluralistic,
00:24:07.880 right?
00:24:08.640 They're not going to run in and murder us all and then try to use us as like their technophilic
00:24:12.880 captives like Hamas had planned to do in Israel, right?
00:24:15.840 And so that means that we can live alongside them and that our goals are broadly aligned.
00:24:21.000 And from our perspective, and this is probably the third point that they don't realize, long
00:24:26.240 term, when our views are no longer aligned, they are not a threat to us.
00:24:30.080 We often use this analogy of the Valley of the Lotus Eaters being a trial that our species
00:24:35.660 is going through right now, where we have infinite temptations around us, which serve
00:24:42.000 to tempt those away from the righteous path of life, of starting a family and getting married
00:24:47.080 and investing in the next generation, which your culture needs to do to survive.
00:24:52.280 The easiest path through the Valley of the Lotus Eaters is to take hot pokers to your eyes.
00:24:58.120 It's to blind yourself so you do not seize these temptations.
00:25:02.660 If pornography is a threat, don't teach your kids to resist that threat.
00:25:07.320 Just ensure they never come into contact with it.
00:25:10.060 This is true for the internet.
00:25:11.640 This is true for technology.
00:25:13.980 The problem with this path through the Valley of the Lotus Eaters is you leave the valley blind.
00:25:21.680 And at the other end of this valley is a battle royale, essentially, and you will be witless and defenseless
00:25:32.480 when that time comes.
00:25:34.780 We haven't had to deal with a battle royale, basically, or a cultural battle royale, since
00:25:40.560 the last dominant cultural collapse, since really the collapse of the Roman Empire.
00:25:44.620 But we are about to enter one again, and as Simone is about to point out, sure, maybe you can regrow your eyes
00:25:52.640 after a while, but you will need some groups going through the Valley of the Lotus Eaters
00:25:58.880 who got through it because they fortified their spirit, not because they blinded themselves to temptation.
00:26:06.680 And if we use this battle royale analogy, everyone in the battle royale who immediately stands up and says,
00:26:12.940 look, I'm willing to let everyone who sides with me do their own thing at the end of this,
00:26:18.860 they have many allies who might join them, because everyone else who takes that perspective can also join them.
00:26:25.000 Everyone in the battle royale who thinks it's my way or the highway, allies will be slim.
00:26:30.720 The reason we take the cultural approaches we do is because we lose if we don't.
00:26:36.040 Not because we are polluted by the urban monoculture or modernity.
00:26:40.260 That, and I also think just because a group is technophobic now doesn't mean they will always be technophobic.
00:26:46.120 And I think that it may be that to make it through this initial adjustment period,
00:26:51.560 while everyone else is being exposed to essentially a virus for which we have no immune system,
00:26:56.500 it is better to first isolate yourself, wait and see what vaccines develop,
00:27:01.400 choose the most efficacious vaccine, and then introduce yourself to the virus, right?
00:27:05.160 So I just feel like to a certain extent, they're quarantining.
00:27:08.120 And quarantining isn't about permanent isolation.
00:27:10.660 Quarantining is about, for a specific period of time, isolating yourself until you know that you can come out safely.
00:27:16.360 So I think we also look at them from that perspective, that they are quarantining,
00:27:19.720 and in the future, they may be coming out in a uniquely advantaged position.
00:27:24.620 I completely agree with you.
00:27:27.140 And I think that this is another reason why we try to protect these groups.
00:27:30.360 And people are like, why would they change their mind about this?
00:27:33.500 And they're taking such a technophobic perspective right now.
00:27:36.240 They're going to change their mind when they begin to see groups getting rounded up and killed.
00:27:40.160 That's when you change your mind about how important those AI drones are, okay?
00:27:46.000 Is when you see, and fortunately, I think if you're in the US, if you're in the UK,
00:27:49.880 you are going to see this happening in other regions, likely Middle East, parts of Africa,
00:27:55.600 long before it happens here.
00:27:57.560 And you're probably going to have at least one generation to say,
00:28:01.000 oh, this is what happens if I don't embrace the technology I need for defense.
00:28:07.360 And that's why we think they will engage with this.
00:28:10.140 I think they'll be given a chance.
00:28:12.260 And then until then, we just need to keep pushing through as much as possible while,
00:28:17.300 and a lot of people don't know that we do this, while working as groups to off the records,
00:28:21.200 like a lot of the technological developments that's happening in the world right now
00:28:23.900 is happening off the records.
00:28:26.140 Because they talk to us, a lot of the genetic technology stuff like that can't be known publicly.
00:28:30.520 A lot of the AI stuff can't be known publicly because there's so many hostile groups out there.
00:28:34.540 And so why even engage?
00:28:35.660 So I think with a lot of people, they're like, oh, we're nowhere near X technology,
00:28:40.160 they'll tell us.
00:28:40.740 And we're like, oh, you may just not know what we know.
00:28:45.300 Here's the question.
00:28:46.100 If you say we're nowhere near X technology, ask yourselves the question.
00:28:50.240 If there was a group that was near X technology, would you know about them?
00:28:54.420 Would it be in their best interest for you to know about them?
00:28:57.600 If the answer is no, then you actually have no information about how close we are to certain technologies.
00:29:02.260 And so what you're seeing happen now, like when it does hit the fan, I think a lot of people will be surprised by the tech certain groups like ours are able to bring to bear before they get to us.
00:29:18.020 They think, oh, the tech that's being used in whatever fight in Africa right now or in the Middle East is the fight.
00:29:24.940 So this is why I think that the bloodshed will ultimately be minimal is as soon as the angry groups realize that they can use tech to enforce their value systems on other groups.
00:29:35.920 The pluralist alliance will likely be at a tech level that has been isolated from the global knowledge ecosystem for long enough that it's basically in sieve a few tech levels ahead of everyone else, which will give it a great degree of defendability.
00:29:51.320 I'm excited for it.
00:29:53.080 Yeah.
00:29:53.460 We're already seeing this having to unplug from like worldwide genetic databases because they're blocking people's access and stuff.
00:29:59.740 Yeah.
00:29:59.980 Scary, but exciting.
00:30:02.220 We're the kind of people who look at dire situations and get stoked because that's our culture.
00:30:08.160 And again, we are truly pluralistic.
00:30:09.660 I will never try to remove the values from another group.
00:30:12.500 And I hold that perspective because it earns us allies.
00:30:15.920 And so that's why it makes sense to be pluralistic.
00:30:17.940 We're not pluralistic from a gregarian.
00:30:20.440 Altruistic perspective.
00:30:21.980 We are pragmatic pluralists.
00:30:24.320 Yeah.
00:30:24.500 And now the question is, if we become the dominant group, would we still be pluralist?
00:30:29.500 And the answer is yes, because we can't ensure we'll always be the dominant group.
00:30:33.260 Not just that.
00:30:34.420 I think we also strongly believe that a diversity of ideas is crucial in maintaining human...
00:30:39.740 Yeah, we believe that.
00:30:40.460 But I'm also just saying from an existential standpoint, I think pluralism is required to win the game our civilization is entering,
00:30:46.860 given that the world is so interconnected now that we are all pluralistic.
00:30:50.140 We don't live in mono-ethnic or cultural nation states anymore.
00:30:54.500 And to go back to that would be as bloody as when India and Pakistan split from each other.
00:31:02.920 Let's hopefully not.
00:31:04.060 Let's sort all the Muslims to one country and all the Hindis to another country.
00:31:07.860 Yeah, that was a terrible idea.
00:31:09.720 It didn't work out so well.
00:31:11.280 A lot of people aren't familiar with how bad the bloodshed from that was and how Winston Churchill tried to prevent it.
00:31:16.640 And he told Gandhi this would happen.
00:31:18.300 And Gandhi was just a selfish prick.
00:31:20.480 Sorry.
00:31:21.140 And with that, off we go.
00:31:23.620 Yeah.
00:31:24.540 I'm glad you're industrious and technologically.
00:31:26.000 Just like he did with the Nazis.
00:31:27.380 This Hitler guy, we need to get rid of him.
00:31:28.880 He pushed pretty hard for that.
00:31:30.800 And he thought his political career was so over from pushing for that.
00:31:34.240 It was for a while.
00:31:35.640 It was for a while.
00:31:36.500 He wrote his memoirs, his autobiography, before World War II because he thought his career was over.
00:31:41.360 Yeah, when he did that whole painting debacle.
00:31:43.360 I think it's sweet when George Bush, Churchill, go through the little painting thing.
00:31:48.680 That forward-watching face.
00:31:50.720 All right.
00:31:51.620 Off we go.
00:31:52.780 I love you.
00:31:53.600 I love you.
00:31:53.660 I love you.
00:31:55.720 I love you.
00:31:56.380 I love you.
00:31:57.240 I love you.