Based Camp - Opus Dei vs. Jesuits： An Outsider's Take on the Battle for Catholicism's Soul

00:00:00.000 hello simone i'm excited to be talking to you today today we are going to be talking about the

00:00:04.780 opus day you know the villain from the da vinci code that is the area exposure like 99% of people

00:00:11.600 have and most people know that they they practice mortification or some of them do where they like

00:00:15.540 hurt themselves or like wear like chains that cut into them when they even like famous ones

00:00:19.860 there's like a famous female author who's opus day who wears like a chain and you may think that 1.00

00:00:23.860 these guys are crazy but what you will learn as we go into the opus day is they might be the only

00:00:30.980 sane catholics there are you they are definitely in the catholic and we'll see how much we have an

00:00:37.320 opportunity to get in the opus day versus jesuit mindset they are definitely the good guy side

00:00:43.180 and the jesuits are definitely the bad guy side we go so hard on catholics and i think you simone

00:00:49.660 specifically are going to love the opus day as you learn more about them even more than you think

00:00:53.860 you do right now really so the opus day was established in 1928 so very very young i would

00:01:01.380 have guessed like late 1600s early 1700s that's crazy yeah when saint joseph maria escavaria i'm

00:01:11.180 gonna pronounce that wrong we'll just call him escavaria had a spiritual insight that ordinary christians

00:01:17.100 could become saints by living their faith fully in their daily routines especially through their

00:01:22.740 work he envisioned a path to holiness that didn't require withdrawing from the world into a monastery

00:01:29.080 or convent but instead embrace secular life as a means of sanctification the vision was formerly

00:01:36.600 recognized by the catholic church in 1982 when pope john paul ii designated opus day as a personal

00:01:44.060 prelator giving its special status to carry out its mission globally so it didn't become like official

00:01:50.440 until 1982 wow sounds a little bit like mahayana buddhism or this premise is you don't have to become

00:01:59.520 like a reclusive monk in order to make religious progress it's interesting yeah but i i actually view

00:02:06.440 it quite different i'd actually say it's very similar to techno puritanism as techno puritanism

00:02:10.660 relates to work which is the idea that you should treat your work and your duty in life

00:02:16.900 with religious fervor that you should be as dedicated to your job if your job and you and you should have

00:02:24.360 a job that attempts to improve the world by your philosophical framework and you should treat that

00:02:31.980 with the extremeness and with the fervor that a monk or hermit who has shut themselves off from society 0.94

00:02:39.760 treats their own seclusion ah so whereas mahayana buddhism kind of allows for normism it's like

00:02:46.300 no no no in everyday life you can do it but also you're going to be a complete weirdo

00:02:49.540 by the way yeah no no no this is this is like you need to be max about your job you need to be

00:02:55.140 max about and opus day believe you have a duty to be happy to other people so that you don't bring

00:03:00.700 other people down you know and we we do is too that you have a responsibility for your mood

00:03:06.220 you have a responsibility for how you affect other people and all of this responsibility is an

00:03:11.020 intense religious responsibility so sanctification of work members are encouraged to perform their

00:03:19.080 daily tasks whether professional domestic or otherwise with excellence as a way to serve god

00:03:24.340 and others so like you are supposed to be a mother as extremely as like a hundred percent

00:03:31.640 a hundred thousand percent that's like somebody would be a in a monastery or something like that

00:03:37.080 and you are not supposed to be very different from other catholic factions you as a mother if

00:03:42.180 you're doing it a hundred percent are not less than the nun in the covenant right because you're making

00:03:49.040 the same amount of sacrifices and engaging in the same amount of discipline i like that like

00:03:55.360 basically apply the religious fervor and discipline that you would see in a convent

00:03:58.940 or in monastery to your everyday life and why shouldn't you that's so much better

00:04:04.540 yeah prayer and spiritual direction a structured spiritual life known as a plan of life includes

00:04:11.780 practices like mass at the rosary mental prayer and spiritual reading spiritual direction from a priest

00:04:18.780 or trained lay person helps members grow on their faith so basically you're supposed to sit down with

00:04:23.500 somebody and plan out your life very much like we would suggest people in our tradition okay

00:04:28.460 how are they different from other catholics opus day members are fully catholic and do not differ

00:04:34.200 from other catholics well as of what 1984 no no this is modern however approach to living out their faith

00:04:41.960 sets them apart they have an emphasis on the laity while many catholic groups focus on religious life

00:04:47.740 e.g. monks and nuns opus day prioritizes the lay people sanctifying the world from within so while

00:04:54.540 other religious orders within catholicism are like go the most extreme separate yourself from the world 0.98

00:04:59.180 everything like that even the monks and nuns of the opus day are supposed to focus on the lay person

00:05:07.100 and in service to helping lay people be at their like same level of holiness and and saintliness that's

00:05:14.300 the goal of these individuals not to have some sort of a separate life integration with daily life

00:05:20.460 their spirituality is deeply rooted in ordinary activities contrasted with traditions that might

00:05:26.300 emphasize monastic retreat or extraordinary penance devotion to church teaching they have

00:05:31.340 a particular devotion to the pope and the magisterium the church's teaching authority which

00:05:37.340 which reinforces their unity with the broader catholic community they believe they have to have

00:05:41.900 daily mass and communion so they have to go to mass as frequently as possible preferably daily wow

00:05:48.300 that's a lot if you have a job and mental prayer reciting the rosary and spending time in personal

00:05:54.540 prayer each day so they're really focused on like the routines and a lot yeah look weird spiritual

00:06:00.940 reading confession regular reading a scripture or spiritual books and frequent confession but when i say

00:06:06.140 look weird you would know that to us this is a good thing yes because this is how religions survive

00:06:11.740 fertility collapse and survive deconversion they have a concept that you've told me about called the

00:06:16.460 heroic minute a practice remembers rise immediately upon waking saying serviam or i will serve to offer

00:06:24.060 their day to god so you're not allowed to stay in bed you're not allowed to procrastinate you just

00:06:28.780 jump out of bed the moment you wake up and this is i think a really good way to relate i mean it's

00:06:33.820 the way i try to wake up when i'm having you know when i'm in in in the zone i won't say i always

00:06:39.500 meet my expectations of myself but i think it's a very good training in terms of how to relate to

00:06:45.260 things yeah now they're they're also known for engaging in something called a mortification so

00:06:52.460 this may involve something like a cliche a spiked chain or a discipline a small whip are used for

00:06:59.500 voluntary self-mortification this is injuring yourself this is not used for injuring yourself

00:07:06.140 like the injuring isn't the point it's used for building more self-control and emotional self-control

00:07:12.060 so that you have more dominion over yourself and you can interact with the world in a more like

00:07:18.220 you know a monk who's just like separating themselves versus society versus somebody who's got like a

00:07:22.780 a spiked chain attached to their leg while they're serving their office job you know who's really

00:07:28.860 making more of a sacrifice for god like this also feeds into the the social scientific theory that

00:07:36.540 ego depletion is culturally specific that in american culture we're like oh i've i've had to think so hard

00:07:42.700 today i just have completely lost all of my self-control and now i'm going to eat a pint of ice cream

00:07:47.420 versus in india for example people are like oh i've had such a tough day today i've had to do so much work

00:07:52.220 now i should do something else hard because i'm really in the zone and the opus day are certainly

00:07:56.300 in the latter camp where they're like i'm gonna make the study she's mentioning shows it works like

00:08:01.500 the indians when they've actually done a lot of well basically if you believe that doing hard things 0.99

00:08:06.940 has warmed you up to do more hard things then you will be able to do more hard things if you believe

00:08:11.340 in ego depletion that if you've made a lot of tough decisions and exhausted your ability to exercise

00:08:17.100 self-control then you will lose self-control so it's it's very much a placebo effect influenced

00:08:22.380 by your culture which again is why it's so toxic to have an external locus of control

00:08:28.140 yeah and what's interesting is how the opus day communicates this because like okay if you're a nun

00:08:32.060 or you're a priest you know you're going to school for this or you're in a convent or you're in a

00:08:35.740 monastery and that's where you're learning all of this where the opus day and i can understand why

00:08:40.860 there's such a young movement has to like train lay people in living this lifestyle yeah which

00:08:47.260 means that they're doing retreats they're doing like over overnight things sometimes they're doing

00:08:53.020 classes where both priests and lay people will teach these as well within the opus day where you're going

00:08:59.660 to learn deeper catholic theology and the way like a monk might but still engaging with your daily life

00:09:07.740 well it's life on hard mode it's it's lean in catholicism edition i i like it everything you're

00:09:14.780 saying so far yes definitely okay it sounds really difficult but it appeals no it does appeal so now we

00:09:21.740 got to talk about the bad guys okay the jesuits the jesuit the jesuits or the society of jesus

00:09:32.620 established in 1540 so they're actually old the the jesuits are a religious order known for their

00:09:39.180 work in education intellectual pursuits and missionary efforts they run schools and universities worldwide

00:09:44.780 and are deeply engaged in social justice and dialogue with modern culture their spirituality

00:09:49.980 rooted in ignatian discernment emphasizes finding god in all things and adapting to contemporary needs

00:09:56.620 which sometimes gives them a reputation as more progressive post vatican ii dynamics the second

00:10:02.860 vatican council this was in 1962 to 1965 with a turning point for the catholic church introducing

00:10:07.740 reforms to engage more with the modern world which sparked debates between those who embraced the

00:10:12.540 changes and those who preferred continuity with tradition the jesuits under leaders like pedro

00:10:18.860 the jesuits leaned into vatican ii call for renewal focusing on social justice ecumenical dialogue and

00:10:25.820 adapting the church to contemporary challenges the jesuits even explored controversial ideas like

00:10:31.100 liberation theology which emphasizes justice for the poor and has been criticized by conservatives

00:10:36.300 for its political undertones essentially they're they're elitist educated communists oh dear that's

00:10:43.260 a nice way of saying that no no they were literally communists like jesuits were socialists and communists

00:10:49.100 historically they are an intellectual elite class which believes that the sort of

00:10:55.660 priesthood has a special position that the laity can't really serve and then the priesthood should 0.77

00:11:01.100 be made up of the intellectual elites and and and supported by the lady the opus day while not

00:11:07.100 opposed to vatican second opus day has emphasized traditional practices like devotion to the eucharist

00:11:13.180 and rosary and cautious approach to rapid change its right the prominence especially after becoming

00:11:19.100 a personal prelature was seen by some as a counterweight to the more progressive faction

00:11:23.900 the opus day its spirituality centers around sanctifying everyday work and personal holiness

00:11:29.660 and encourages a structured prayer life and obedience to church teachings often appealing to those who

00:11:36.140 value tradition and discipline it focuses heavily on the role of the lay people in spreading their face

00:11:43.020 jesuits their ignatian spirituality is out of discernment finding god's will within all circumstances and

00:11:49.340 intellectual engagement they're known for their adaptability running universities and addressing

00:11:54.620 social issues which can lead to a more open and exploratory approach to face a few issues so

00:12:01.740 liberation theology so this is jesuit some jesuits like gustave gutierrez were key figures in liberation

00:12:07.260 theology which blends catholic social teaching with a focus on systematic change for the oppressed opus

00:12:13.820 day with this emphasis on personal sanctity over political activism has generally been more critical

00:12:19.420 of this movement aligning with vatican critiques of its marxist elements ecumenicalism and modernity

00:12:26.460 jesuits are known for interfaith dialogue and engaging with secular culture sometimes pushing

00:12:31.980 boundaries opus day tends to prioritize fidelity to catholic doctrine and traditional devotions

00:12:37.740 and can make it appear less open to such engagement what's really interesting and i think

00:12:42.220 that the jesuit opus day split in many ways foretold the split between like modern conservatives and

00:12:50.380 modern progressives where the progressives are a party of intellectual and bureaucratic elites and the

00:12:56.860 conservatives are who who want to change things you want to adapt culture as quickly as possible

00:13:02.060 whereas the conservatives while newer like the new right is a newer party than this progressive right

00:13:09.260 is a party of personal responsibility personal discernment and returning to traditions

00:13:16.140 and not interfering with with with people's lives so that you can maximize your own life

00:13:24.460 sorry i want to build this into the game world oh no no i really like this idea where i think you know

00:13:30.540 earlier i had the church splitting up in one church forming in mexico and then the other church forming

00:13:35.820 around the vatican but i want to do a a a head of the jesuits the black pope ends up essentially

00:13:41.980 through shady dealings taking over the catholic church and then you know you know legalizing the

00:13:47.740 women in the in the in the in the priesthood etc marriage a bunch of stuff that your normal opus

00:13:53.020 day member would never allow and then have the cardinals who are affiliated with the with the opus day

00:13:57.820 faction refocusing around the latin american church so it would be a schism but it was a schism that

00:14:02.460 would make sense given the modern conflicts the church is already having yeah that makes sense

00:14:07.420 i'll end up posting the new faction to the discord but i think they're pretty dope we tried to lean

00:14:12.220 hard into the idea of while there was a schism in the church it was a schism in which the side that

00:14:19.260 is the catholics that you would encounter in the game is the one with the most claimed to apostolic succession

00:14:25.260 they have transformed sort of the way the religion is practiced into this concept of living martyrdom

00:14:33.980 which means that essentially everyone dresses and lives their lives as if they're living under the

00:14:42.540 priesthood but was much more fervor than you would see was in the existing church now you could say here

00:14:49.180 well then just don't have the vatican fall you know the problem is is in almost every timeline i can

00:14:56.620 see that happening now specifically in italy right now we have a fertility rate of only 1.18 that means

00:15:03.900 even if it stays at its existing fertility and keep in mind it's fallen every year for the past 16 years

00:15:09.260 i think for every 100 italians there will only be 20 great-grandchildren i don't see how that civilization 0.84

00:15:16.460 can stay stable or we can expect it to continue existing however i could potentially see iterations

00:15:23.660 of catholic civilization staying stable in latin america which is where we have the church refocusing

00:15:30.060 and keep in mind the the current pope is a jesuit oh really oh yes he's catching a little hippie from 0.73

00:15:37.900 tradcasts though so now i guess oh yeah provides more context so the founder of opus day was canonized

00:15:46.140 declared a saint in 2002 just 27 years after his death in 1975 wow the one that shows how new they

00:15:53.500 are the founder of the opus day by 2002 had only been dead for 27 years wow the saint did this event

00:16:01.020 symbolized opus day's rapid rise in prominence within the catholic church particularly under pope john

00:16:05.420 paul ii who strongly supported the organization opus day known for its conservative and traditional

00:16:11.900 approach to face emphasizes the sanctification of daily life often appealing to lay people and

00:16:17.020 aligning with a structured devotional spirituality in contrast the jesuits a religious order known for

00:16:23.260 their intellectual rigor and progressive leanings focus on education and social justice were perceived

00:16:28.940 as having lost some influence in the decades following vatican ii and the 1960s attempts to modernize

00:16:34.380 the church escobar's canonization occurred so quickly it was seen by some of the church as favoring

00:16:40.860 opus days traditionalism over the jesuits more liberal stance it was an unprecedented spade his

00:16:46.140 canonization is just 27 years one of the fastest canonizations in modern history second only to

00:16:50.940 mother theresa typically the process takes decades or even centuries beginning with a mandatory five-year 0.62

00:16:56.540 waiting period after the death followed by an extensive investigation into the candidate's life and

00:17:01.820 this rapid timeline was exceptional strong papal support pope john paul ii was who personally in minor

00:17:08.220 this guy and opus days mission played a key role in fast tracking the process his support reflects

00:17:13.500 priority of promoting models of holiness for lay people which elayed with opus days focus but it made

00:17:19.180 the canonization appear unusually driven by papal initiative miracles attributed the two miracles that

00:17:25.100 were credited to him which are a requirement for sainthood one involved in nuns recovering from a rare skin

00:17:30.300 disease and the other a doctor's healing from radiation exposure while these were officially verified the speed

00:17:36.220 and the process raised questions among some questions among graduates who really did not like that he was

00:17:41.740 canonized yeah i don't know like a skin condition suddenly both of these are are are unexpected

00:17:50.860 physical changes in response to medical conditions like there are so many of those that take place

00:17:56.860 to attribute those to a single person yeah yeah i don't know well we'll have a a separate episode

00:18:07.420 where we'll go deeper on the the secondary part of this which is the the black pope and the jesuits

00:18:12.620 well so the jesuits were all black and their leader which are elected by the jesuits has a lot of power in

00:18:18.860 trying to attempt to essentially like manipulate who gets elected pope and stuff like that and and what happens

00:18:24.140 within the catholic organizations because like obviously he has a lot of power the jesuits have

00:18:28.060 been around for a very long time and so have collected a ton of money and so they are a very

00:18:33.340 wealthy organization they also have position if power was in secular society so if you're talking

00:18:40.140 about like catholic universities or just elite educational institutions more broadly you're going

00:18:46.060 to see jesuits in positions of power across at least whereas the opus de have focused much more

00:18:52.140 on empowering lay people outside of the clergy a much newer organization which doesn't deal as

00:18:58.700 well with accumulating power but i would bet if you're looking at fertility rates between 0.86

00:19:02.700 organizations affiliated with each of these brands jesuits are going to be a giant fertility sink to 1.00

00:19:07.420 have any area yeah and they are going to be a huge fertility boost having anywhere around you 0.98

00:19:13.500 yeah yeah because it sounds like the opus day are just about getting things done

00:19:17.660 mm-hmm and it provides a way for the opus day to potentially build factions that are just entirely

00:19:26.140 based around family and having kids and and focusing there and it would just completely be cogent with

00:19:32.300 their existing teachings which means that long run they'll likely win and as that becomes more

00:19:39.180 clear to the jesuits as has happened with organizations in the past like the great friars and stuff like

00:19:45.180 that this is like a thing that constantly happens with the catholics where remember how i told you

00:19:49.020 that the catholic orders were like creating a new because i argued that religions typically become

00:19:53.820 softer as time goes on and they become more like the urban monoculture as time goes on and so you need

00:19:59.020 to create new young orders which basically act like new religions which then re-inject these like

00:20:04.780 stem cells into like the heart of the catholic religion keeping it young the opus day really represent

00:20:09.580 that they are the youngest of the orders where the jesuits this isn't the first order that this

00:20:14.140 happened to i even think when the jesuits were first created they were replacing another order

00:20:17.580 what is it the gray friars that had become super wealthy and indolent and focused on intellectualism 0.99

00:20:23.180 and focused on like disconnected from the people because as orders get older they undergo the process

00:20:29.020 that all organizations do which is becoming softer capitulating to the urban monoculture by the way my

00:20:34.700 memory here was correct it was the gray friars also known as the franciscans who were founded in the

00:20:40.060 1200s originally around you know extreme poverty not owning anything etc and had become incredibly

00:20:47.580 wealthy and elitist by the times that the jesuits were founded and so you see this cycle where an

00:20:53.020 order is founded at first they focus on you know austerity and and faith and then over time they become

00:21:01.500 wealthier and more intellectually elitist and more interested in appealing to the status hierarchies of the

00:21:08.300 secular world you can read our book the pragmatist guide to religion if you want to learn more

00:21:11.580 about what it means for a religion to get soft but but they as an order have become soft and the question

00:21:18.620 is are they going to fight against this uh if if a pope turned against them that'd be fine and and popes

00:21:26.540 have against the jesuits in the past in fact a pope in the past because the black pope was accumulating 1.00

00:21:33.900 so much power this is ahead of the jesuits a pope inserted and then created a tradition of inserting

00:21:41.020 a pope chosen by the vatican rather than voted on by the jesus oh drama okay very drama yeah let's just

00:21:50.700 go into what i collected about the black pope i think you'll find it yeah okay so yeah tell me tell

00:21:55.100 me about the black pope so first the outfit why is he called the black pope the jesuits wear plain black

00:21:59.820 cossacks a stark contrast to the pope's pristine white robes since their founding in 1540 the

00:22:06.300 jesuits have been the catholic intellectual heavyweights educators missionaries and influencers

00:22:11.420 the leader's clout has sometimes rivaled the pope's at least in the eyes of his admirers and enemies

00:22:16.780 but back in the 16th and 17th centuries a protestant nation saw the jesuits pope as a secret army loyal

00:22:23.180 to a fault and dangerously clever because they were the intellectuals and they did dress in all black and you

00:22:28.220 can imagine how that looked to the protestants right yeah but even catholics i actually learned

00:22:32.540 about the concept of the black pope and all this at the prenatalist con from a actually an opus day

00:22:37.900 who was like hey you need to look into the jesuits trying to take over the catholics for a long time 0.62

00:22:43.900 stuff that you see as broadly catholic is just jesuit that's interesting wow okay yeah okay the the so

00:22:53.500 picture this it's 1773 and the jesuits are at the height of their influence running schools advising

00:22:59.100 kings and spreading casselicism worldwide but they've made enemies european monarchs jealous of

00:23:04.220 their sway and annoyed by their meddling pressured pope clement the 14th to shut them down he caves

00:23:11.260 issuing a decree that suppresses the jesuit order entirely officially they're disbanded but here's the

00:23:17.900 twist in places like russia where the pope's order isn't enforced the jesuits don't just fade away they

00:23:23.820 keep going led temporarily by the vicars general stand in black popes who defy the suppression turn

00:23:32.300 a conspiracy-minded observer this looks like the jesuits summing their nose at the pope no that's

00:23:37.100 exactly what it is oh my god okay so the jesuits were disbanded in the 1770s

00:23:43.340 okay but in places where the pope's power didn't hold the jesuits elected leaders kept running

00:23:52.540 iterations of this order how interesting and then years later by the 19th century the jesuits are

00:24:00.540 quietly reinstated under pope pious the sevenths in 1814 to outsiders this may seem what what no that's

00:24:11.020 exactly what happened to outsiders yeah is there a but after that like it may have looked like this

00:24:16.940 but it wasn't that's exactly what it was it was a rogue religious organization that was but is there

00:24:24.060 a but like do they explain why it isn't what it looks like no i mean i'm sure that the the this is

00:24:29.900 from an ai so the ai is just trained on jesuit writing obviously because they control the laws but they

00:24:35.820 due to having too much power and fighting the pope's interest were banned by the pope

00:24:42.140 then use the black pope as their alternate pope oh good heavens kept operating and were reinstated 1.00

00:24:50.380 later they literally are a separate religious organization operating within the catholic church

00:24:56.300 that was too powerful to be eradicated that's that's but hold on so i wanted to be as fair as

00:25:02.300 possible and try to look at the way a catholic would see this what they would say is that well

00:25:07.740 the jesuits weren't actually disbanded because the pope thought they were becoming too powerful

00:25:12.140 they were disbanded because they were annoying local rulers which okay i guess i can get behind

00:25:17.180 that but then isn't the pope supposed to be god's hand on earth how is he so easily bullied

00:25:21.100 by local rulers then you have the the secondary situation which is to say that well technically

00:25:27.900 they weren't disbanded see the russians the russian jesuits found themselves in a legal gray area they

00:25:33.740 weren't directly disobeying the pope since the suppression decree hadn't been officially promulgated

00:25:39.100 in russia and that papal documents technically needed to be officially promulgated in a region

00:25:44.380 to take effect according to the legal practice at the time now for me i'm like yeah but like it

00:25:50.380 doesn't matter if it's legal or not what matters is what god wanted and apparently god operates

00:25:56.780 through apostolic succession and the pope is god's hand on earth so you think that god's like okay

00:26:02.300 with this sort of technicality i don't know to me this reads like somebody doesn't really believe

00:26:06.460 their religion if they're like oh well technicality here and then you have the situation of apparently

00:26:11.740 there was one instance where pope pius the seventh did acknowledge the existence of the jesuits

00:26:17.900 in russia in 1783 which is seen as approval and then they were later restored and that the faction

00:26:23.580 in russia continued to exist gave them the ability to claim this historical continuity so that's how

00:26:30.220 they're like well you see it was a good thing and we're all just going to forget that this happened

00:26:34.460 that's not the only power grab that they've done okay in the 20th century enter father pedro arpa the

00:26:41.500 superior general or black pope from 1965 to 1983 under his rope the jesuits go rogue they dive into liberation 0.65

00:26:51.260 theology a fiery mix of faith and social justice that has been backing revolutionaries in latin america

00:26:57.900 what yeah by 1981 arpa suffers a stroke and pope john paul ii sees at the moment he doesn't wait for

00:27:06.460 the jesuits to elect a new back pope he appoints his own delegate to run the order he dubbed papal

00:27:11.580 martial law it was unprecedented and many jesuits complained about this so he was backing socialist

00:27:18.380 revolutionaries the head of the jesuits in latin america

00:27:25.420 i see and then we have what happened in 2005 where the jesuits tried to prevent the election

00:27:33.900 of a pope so after john paul ii's death in april 2005 the college of cardinals convened to elect his

00:27:39.900 successor ratzinger a german theologian and close ally of john paul ii oh pope ratzinger

00:27:46.380 is back yeah the back the opus day faction oh and he emerged as the front runner however not

00:27:52.220 everyone was on board with this candidacy a blocking strategy a group of cardinals reportedly

00:27:57.180 included some of europe's and latin americans wanted to prevent ratzinger from securing the

00:28:02.060 two-thirds majority needed to win they rallied roads around bergelgio an argentinian jesuit known

00:28:08.460 for his humility and focus on the poor an alternative candidate he the guy who they rallied again wasn't

00:28:14.700 necessarily campaigning for the papacy himself in fact accounts suggest he was uneasy about being

00:28:19.020 used in this way so they're like not even particularly moral people in the way they're

00:28:22.540 doing this like this guy did not want this to happen but they got through this then i was like okay

00:28:29.100 but is there any evidence that the jesuits actually do offer like like like have outsized

00:28:35.100 control within the organization and it's like well haven't you just presented a ton

00:28:39.180 yeah yeah they're basically a rogue faction that is anti-papist well i mean now they control the

00:28:46.460 papacy so like who's to say the catholics yeah yeah you're anti-papist until you you're in charge

00:28:51.820 and then yeah until you're in charge right you know you love it it's great it's great let's institute

00:28:57.900 these reforms throughout the entire catholic order and i think that this is like a generational thing i think

00:29:05.260 the church will likely have some major schism if the next pope is also a jesuit and continues to 0.94

00:29:11.260 take it in this direction yeah and we'll see because it doesn't look like this pope has a lot

00:29:14.780 longer because of his health issues yeah and the question is because because like the the bureaucratic

00:29:20.780 branch is always going to be overwhelmingly jesuit because they control the elites and the positions

00:29:24.380 of power or jesuit influenced whereas the lay people who don't vote on pope for example are going

00:29:30.780 to be overly aligned with the opus day now long term i think the opus day faction ends up gaining

00:29:36.460 control as has happened a few times in catholic history where a new a sort of order needs to come

00:29:40.860 in and another order needs to be put down but the question is is can that happen before the the pope

00:29:47.100 ends up taking the church in a theological direction that is untenable to your average opus day aligned

00:29:53.740 individual yikes that's wow i'm glad that the opus day member that you met at natal con told you to

00:30:02.940 look a little deeper because oh my gosh like we've been meaning to do an opus day episode for ages

00:30:08.780 though because like we've always like from what i've heard of them i've always liked them i think

00:30:13.420 mortification is good i think this waking up and like like yelling like i'm at it is really mentally

00:30:19.180 healthy i think it's important that they do something that a lot of catholics don't do which is 0.98

00:30:23.580 theological teaching whereas a lot of the way that catholic sermons go is really focused around

00:30:28.780 ceremony like i was talking with you know at at natal con the catholics famously low fertility these

00:30:34.940 days of religious sex in catholic majority countries catholic areas how do you get fertility rates up

00:30:40.620 well a couple at natal con was like well we decided to have a kid long before we had planned on having

00:30:45.020 one because you know at church the the pastor came in and said like hey we're gonna help this couple

00:30:52.140 you know make sure that they're never in need for child care etc and then you know when their baby

00:30:57.180 was crying goes you know if this babies aren't crying the church is dying you know saying all

00:31:01.100 this to the entire congregation from the pulpit i mean they were like oh like i didn't i felt like i

00:31:05.740 was doing a bad job of being a mother but hearing like oh let the baby cry you know etc and and i was i

00:31:11.340 was talking about this and a catholic was like yeah there's like my priest would never say that like

00:31:16.780 that's not like a thing that you would do is is be like hey this couple help them care for their 1.00

00:31:22.140 kid but that is something the opus day can do in the way that they do these additional lessons

00:31:26.620 this like sunday school for adults so presumably there are opus day churches like that is that the

00:31:34.300 way it works like if we were an opus day family they're like i this is my understanding but i'll look

00:31:40.220 it up in post is that you you go to like retreats and training seminars um you're still part of like

00:31:46.300 a normal catholic parish yeah because i just wonder how how would you get the community support then

00:31:51.900 that would you know make things easier and more sustainable for you well opus day members could you

00:31:58.620 know build out like like daycare networks like this would be really powerful at increasing fertility

00:32:03.580 network rates right like yeah okay you have your job which you have a a a moral obligation to

00:32:09.420 that is religious but then on top of that you have a moral obligation to helping other members of

00:32:14.540 your community and while the opus day wouldn't be you know hugely poor oh like traditional like 0.98

00:32:19.900 go help random poor people stuff or socialist revolution stuff i can see them being a hundred

00:32:25.340 percent on board with let's create free daycares for members of our own parish that that seems like

00:32:31.340 a very opus day thing to do contrasted with the oh let's let's just try to like be utility accountants

00:32:38.940 and lower net suffering in the world hmm yeah which doesn't produce the best of outcomes

00:32:49.420 is this the spicy spicy episode here well i like that you found something nice to say about some

00:32:57.500 catholics which is i've always been pro opus day from the first time i mentioned you could like search

00:33:03.100 the episode yeah but in general you're like i was this pro opus day i'm like a really pro opus day

00:33:09.260 the more you love them yeah yeah i'm like they're the only like good catholic faction now and people

00:33:14.940 think i would ever become a catholic based on this no no we don't have the disposition necessary to be

00:33:22.700 yeah i i i don't i'd like i find all the idolatry really hard to like even even like the prayer beads

00:33:29.020 and everything like that that just trouble even with crosses ceremony even the crosses are i mean

00:33:35.740 look as an outsider and i know that like catholics like i'm trying to be like as as as diplomatic as i

00:33:43.500 can and be like you guys believe you are literally eating the savior like like cannibalism like it

00:33:52.780 literally it's not like metaphorically you think you are literally cannibalizing the literal messiah

00:34:07.420 and then you worship to statues of him being tortured and you wear the device that tortured him on you

00:34:16.060 well that's a little violent can we tone it down oh don't be put up by the snarling they just seem a

00:34:23.580 little murdery right now don't worry honey that's that thing we struggle with that

00:34:31.340 it's optically difficult for me to get by and then you you worship in these churches that are covered

00:34:39.740 in gold and artwork and paintings and and all of this idolatry but we also just have we have trouble

00:34:45.900 using symbolism of any sort i don't care if it's a pokemon card or if it's an image like to me it's

00:34:52.860 like literally it's literally like indiana jones it's like the obviously wrong choice if you have

00:35:00.620 read the bible it's like oh it's glorious it's so beautiful it's like no the cup of a carpenter

00:35:05.900 which one is it you must choose but choose wisely for as the true grail will bring you life

00:35:16.140 the false grail will take it from you i'm not a historian i have no idea what it looks like

00:35:23.260 which one is it which one is it let me choose oh yes

00:35:34.460 it's more beautiful than i'd ever imagine this certainly is the cup of the king of kings

00:35:43.340 eternal life

00:35:44.140 it would not be made out of gold that's the cup of a carpenter

00:36:14.140 you have chosen why anyway uh what were you gonna say when i interrupted you i'm sorry

00:36:26.300 no no carry on you're saying it's like pokemon cards and we're okay was it even if it's no no

00:36:30.620 we're not okay with worshiping any kind of object or using any kind of object i think people would

00:36:35.420 argue it's not idolatrous i use it as like a place to focus my attention or remind me but no no because

00:36:41.420 there's this this human intuitive tendency to just start treating objects of meditation as idols

00:36:49.660 over time it just exactly and and you can see why we're worried i mean even catholics would be like 1.00

00:36:55.020 okay but like we don't do that and it's like yeah maybe you intellectual catholic doesn't do that but

00:37:01.180 there's a lot of lay catholics in the in the outer parts of this sort of castle empire in latin america

00:37:06.700 and stuff like that where they are absolutely worshiping the saints yeah and like we we see it

00:37:12.140 happening in when whenever we're in peru there's various statues of saints like sitting around and

00:37:18.460 you know people stop and they pray and they leave things there and

00:37:23.740 what i'm making here is that the reason why this stuff is banned is is is you somebody with absolute

00:37:31.260 mental discipline who is absolutely educated on the bible might be able to go into a church

00:37:37.100 and be inspired by these things and maintain that mental separation but your average person or even

00:37:43.580 let's say 20 of the parishioners aren't going to be able to do that is it worth sacrificing their souls

00:37:49.740 so that you can and keep in mind we have a different relation to the concept of enjoy an aesthetic flourish

00:37:55.020 like it's not a deal breaker for you i mean especially if you're not worshiping these things as

00:37:59.740 idols you really don't need them at all you're just like i don't know they're nice they help to inspire

00:38:04.700 look at trees look at plants look at the sky look at the night sky look at the sun look at well all of

00:38:09.580 that would still be idolatry if you're using it as an intermediary right but like if you are if you

00:38:13.340 need inspiration about the greatness of god you don't need to see a cathedral you can look at the

00:38:17.740 eyes of your own child you know like or anything beautiful happening yeah the point being is like

00:38:24.220 even catholics would admit that this has a cost and and the question is like why are they comfortable

00:38:29.420 with that cost like when i take that in in combination with all the aesthetic stuff and

00:38:34.140 the the the bleeding christ and the churches and everything i don't know like i struggle it's tough

00:38:41.740 optically but i i will say that the opus de like among catholics they seem to be pretty awesome

00:38:48.460 yeah well because i think maybe what you seem to like about them a lot is i mean we are extremely focused on

00:38:55.820 outcomes were very consequentialist and they seem to be very focused on well not just that but i

00:39:02.220 believe in treating your daily work as a as a sort of an active worship an active worship and in

00:39:09.340 productivity as an active worship and i also really believe in the concept of the late i mean one of my

00:39:15.500 biggest complaints about the catholic church is this like a hierarchy of religious authority and the

00:39:20.540 opus de in a way invert that hierarchy of religious authority pointing out that the lay person can be

00:39:25.820 as well yeah in that way it is very protestant doesn't it yeah as as the as the highest member

00:39:32.300 of a church or as a cardinal and i think that that is to me that that really aligns with my sensibilities

00:39:39.820 and sort of the anti-elitism bit that i have which is is i think they really represent that and i think

00:39:46.940 represent a way that you can be catholic and you know we talked about this with techno puritanism

00:39:52.620 is is that i want people to be able to come to the religion from different faiths and what that

00:39:57.900 means to me is that if you look at the tracks to be a techno puritan you don't need to believe in all

00:40:03.260 the tracks like you only need to believe a few like like broad things like that we are going to be arguing

00:40:09.660 that god actually exists that that you could argue god from looking at repeatable real world things

00:40:17.980 not like you saying it from yourself like just oh i i saw this thing that no one else saw and that's

00:40:23.260 or i feel this thing that no one else can feel and that it was the final one that all other true face

00:40:30.940 are true face and should be allowed to coexist and that's something that you know a lot of catholics are

00:40:36.300 going to struggle with but but there would be a natural alliance between these groups anyway but

00:40:40.940 but like the opus day i can see myself aligning with the opus day i could never see myself aligning

00:40:44.540 with the genitals well do you have any data on opus day fertility no but i can look it up in post

00:40:55.180 yeah i mean i i guess your hope then would be oh i checked it actually it was ai it didn't have any data

00:41:00.140 on it yeah i mean it would be really hard to know no i bet you you could collect the opus day affiliate

00:41:06.460 members like lay person members that go to these training seminars yeah but do they collect things

00:41:10.940 like how many kids do you have i doubt that you could start collecting just do a collection for like

00:41:15.660 a few classes see how many kids people over a certain age have and then try to correlate that

00:41:21.100 with the general catholic fertility right and you might find i suspect that the opus day affiliation

00:41:26.540 is really directly correlated with high fertility i can definitely be done just i doubt that you know

00:41:31.900 there's a lot of good info right now but yeah anyway levy to decimone i don't know if your your

00:41:40.220 opinion has changed on anything from this i like that you gave me a more realistic picture of them

00:41:46.700 because like so many other people my only exposure to information about opus day aside from

00:41:53.340 their waking up rituals which i looked up when making a youtube video which embarrassingly still

00:41:58.060 sits on this channel was from the da vinci code and that pale actor wasn't he supposed to be an albino

00:42:08.460 yeah like whipping himself and being weird and that that is that that seems so deviant from what

00:42:13.980 you described because they're about you know they imply that the opus day is this monastic order of

00:42:21.020 extremist isolated crazies when what you're describing is a an order that's all about

00:42:27.580 leaning into the real world and just self-actualization to the max plus a lot of catholicism

00:42:33.180 which sounds pretty cool so i feel like a great disservice has been done by the da vinci code by dan

00:42:39.900 brown to i don't know i think the da vinci code made them look cool i don't think so no no it was like

00:42:45.900 just this albino freak trying to stop them i don't think at least from reading the book the book did

00:42:51.660 not give me a very positive impression of the opus day so i still feel i feel like they were wronged

00:43:00.540 maybe maybe dan brown is a secret jesuit or maybe he did book research with jesuits and didn't know but

00:43:07.420 he is urban monoculture aligned and urban monoculture would be more associated with

00:43:14.140 anti-urban monoculture is going to be affiliated with the opus day

00:43:18.140 i could see that i could i could okay fair

00:43:23.980 all right love you to death i love you too for your starch tonight i presume you want hash browns

00:43:29.580 like it seems like whenever there's a choice your choice is hash browns is that correct 0.98

00:43:34.140 i'm okay with whatever you feel you have the time to make with getting to bed early

00:43:40.860 oh yes because sleep oh listen getting about early is more important than anything else so big on sleep

00:43:47.260 so i i i i say the difference between rice and hash browns is a maybe 10 difference not big

00:43:54.060 in fact i don't know i can make you hash browns so i'll do it because i desperately love you i just

00:44:00.060 want you to i want you to know how much i love you i wish i could do more things

00:44:03.820 you do a lot of things i'm not good at expressing you're very good at expressing you just don't

00:44:08.700 believe i hear it but you taste it is that the thing that matters yeah i live my life of of an

00:44:15.900 amazing you know i i get to live a near perfect life i've been thinking about it again recently like

00:44:22.140 it's unfair how perfect my life is yeah but you you have a perfect life because you also

00:44:28.460 love your family and are a good person and work really hard and i love that our kids are like

00:44:32.140 that too like right like indy's been a little bit irritable but you know it has kept her quiet 1.00

00:44:36.620 since i put her down i'm just i'm just playing home videos of of her siblings and that makes her happy

00:44:43.500 again and she's being dragged around i love it yeah just like that's so sweet that's all she wants to 1.00

00:44:51.180 see and then she's and then she's happy when that that is our family that we are so lucky to love each

00:44:55.980 other and live together and you know i think there's a lot of people who would have everything

00:45:01.740 you have and not be happy i think that it was a miserable existence so like the opus day you choose

00:45:06.620 happiness you choose cheerfulness and you choose how could you have all of this how could you be

00:45:10.140 married to you and have these kids in this house and not be i mean i know a lot of movie stars like

00:45:14.220 all of them seem unhappy right like they've chosen this life that's like urban monoculture life

00:45:18.620 it's so sad yeah even though they have all this wealth and power like you know jim carrey's famous

00:45:22.700 line you know i hope you achieve wealth power and everything you wanted because then you'll see

00:45:26.780 it won't make you happy it's like well i don't know what you were fighting for jim carrey but like

00:45:31.340 this makes me happy and fulfilled yeah it's pretty darn good maybe you should have had a big family and

00:45:38.140 gotten married and go to live on a farm

00:45:43.580 some celebrities seem to do that they just disappear like you never hear from them you know you hear from 0.99

00:45:48.060 the miserable ones because they're still engaging with the press i bet that that one crazy christian 0.97

00:45:52.460 one is happy oh the who the drunk driving man mel gibson mel gibson mel gibson yeah he's pretty 0.98

00:46:00.380 pretty i love the south park take on him yeah say what you want about mel gibson but the son of

00:46:04.940 no story structure get the videotape and do a background check on everyone in it oh yes like 0.99

00:46:11.740 this guy's crazy but damn does he know story structure 0.96

00:46:16.860 well high praise from stone and parker right yeah i love you i love you too bye bye you hang up 0.99

00:46:27.900 bye

00:46:33.020 and octavia's a red army guy and red army guys respond oh no is it another red army guy

00:46:42.540 oh no

Based Camp - April 07, 2025

Opus Dei vs. Jesuits： An Outsider's Take on the Battle for Catholicism's Soul

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