Based Camp

00:00:00.000 hi everyone we've got dan has here he is more births on x he is a legend in communicating

00:00:06.180 with the public on fertility and demographic collapse and fertility policy and we are thrilled

00:00:11.100 and we just saw him in person a couple weeks ago now he's here with us on the podcast and he's going

00:00:15.740 to talk about his top theories his thoughts on priorities no no no he's not because i'm gonna

00:00:21.120 explain why they're wrong okay then malcolm's gonna be he might disagree and we're gonna see

00:00:25.560 our own little base cam flame war here we're roasting marshmallows over the fire of

00:00:30.460 disagreement it's all good also he's in a fertility collapse task force we're putting together with

00:00:37.520 the heritage foundation which i'm also really excited about right now so we've got right now

00:00:41.400 you guys the heritage foundation guys and katherine yes but the argument we were getting into because

00:00:48.500 you you were destroying it all you're saying you actually agree with me and i don't like this

00:00:51.580 because we need to but i was saying that because there were two core concepts you we wanted to go

00:00:57.160 over with a lot of statistics in this episode one is the importance of living space to fertility rates

00:01:03.420 which is something that you're known for frequently arguing and then the second is the concept of a

00:01:09.400 fertility stack which is a collection of things that impact fertility rates um and i was saying that

00:01:16.160 i actually disagree even with the the lesser fertility stack issue because i think it draws

00:01:21.840 away for the overwhelming importance of culture and i think that if we don't look at this as a culture

00:01:28.020 first problem it causes groups that could otherwise be saved to be able to push off their their real

00:01:37.180 problems to like secondary quality of life issues that they want to micro focus on um and i think giving them an

00:01:44.700 excuse to do that is incredibly damaging to the wider conversation so i want to hear your

00:01:49.020 debate here and stats on why this stuff is so important okay well i i'm i have bad news i i actually

00:01:56.300 do agree with you there's a big problem here i don't know we we want to we want to be a flame war

00:02:00.320 here but actually no you you are right i mean the the most important driver of fertility above everything

00:02:07.400 else is culture yeah absolutely and and so i i do agree this this concept of the fertility stack

00:02:14.960 so i i can i can talk about what the major

00:02:18.140 first go through the major things in the fertility stack then try to convince me that housing space

00:02:23.420 matters at all because i i just say and i'll repeatedly say this is is if you look historically

00:02:29.260 in america it was common for multiple families to live in one household like that that means that

00:02:34.360 the only reason we care about living space before having kids is completely cultural it's it's like

00:02:40.040 being trans or something like i i don't understand how i can say that one i'm like this is inefficient

00:02:46.620 and doesn't help people so we should change our culture rather than change you know our biology when i

00:02:52.520 look at houses i'm like well we should change our culture rather than changing our environments

00:02:57.340 because there's nuance to this and i want to hear dan's argument and i can also throw in some

00:03:01.660 things that some people have shared with me that have moderated my views on this okay yes would you

00:03:08.580 want to talk about housing first or the yeah let's talk about housing first i guess the one for you to

00:03:12.880 argue because it's like your core thing yeah yeah so pronatal belief and having a culture that's pro

00:03:18.720 family is definitely very important but but you know housing having the right-handed kind of housing and

00:03:25.000 housing space does matter also and i just want to use the example of a group that is uh all around you

00:03:29.800 guys where you are in pennsylvania which is which is the amish so so we have you know the example of

00:03:37.140 israel which is a wonderful example of of pronatal culture and very dense housing that's gotten

00:03:42.740 denser recently right no very dense housing that is their that is actually i would say their biggest

00:03:46.880 limitation but i i would say you know the amish have many of many similar values you know pronatal belief

00:03:54.240 very religious tight-knit culture and they also have you know a lot of space and a lot of room to

00:04:01.200 grow and you and you get a fertility rate of of six yeah but the core thing that correlates with

00:04:06.160 fertility in american what is it dutch whatever speakers basically amish in america is the use of

00:04:11.920 cell phones which is i mean it's so overwhelming it cuts their fertility rate by into like a third of

00:04:17.640 what it is when they don't use cell phones which shows that that cultural intrusion matters more to them

00:04:22.900 than the land ownership itself and i also point out that if you're contrasting amish culture

00:04:28.020 with jewish culture in the way it relates to land ownership you can immediately see how jewish culture

00:04:35.080 negates the housing issue specifically with with amish individuals it's believed you need your own

00:04:40.900 house to get married and they'll even do like barn raises and like you know you make money off the land

00:04:44.540 and everything like that if you go to israel if you go and we've argued this in other videos that

00:04:48.440 judaism is an urban specialized culture i think today 98 percent of jews live in urban areas

00:04:52.160 if you go to rural parts of israel and you look at the way they structure their their cities

00:04:57.220 they look like micro dense settlements instead of like actually like spread apart cities typically

00:05:04.500 based around like a minion and it's and i'll put pictures on screen of it because it's really weird

00:05:09.180 but it shows that even if you give jews a lot of land because their culture is so adapted for less

00:05:17.020 space they use the land in a way where they're not like taking it up with giant houses and everything

00:05:22.840 so i i don't want to say that you're i do hear it i do hear it no i really do i i do want to

00:05:28.360 one thing i do want to emphasize this is and this is the sort of the topic of i i say the fertility stack

00:05:35.040 is that there it is multi-factored and i i i would agree with you that pronatal belief and culture

00:05:44.020 are are the most important element and i have that you know as the top of the the stack but i i also

00:05:51.220 want to point out there is you know quite a you know quite a significant housing restraint particularly

00:05:58.360 when you can't have you know all of you know all of cultures you know being as pronatal as

00:06:06.780 as israel so i i want to i want to you know present show us some stats show us some stats

00:06:11.940 sure sure well and while dan pulls up some stats i will point out that one thing that really changed

00:06:17.920 the way i look at this is a mother that i speak with a lot pointed out that it made set or it could

00:06:24.340 work to have a really big family and a lot of kids in a really small house when you lived in a

00:06:28.800 culture where obviously the kids are playing outside all day they just come home for dinner

00:06:32.600 and they sleep they basically like eat and sleep in the house and the rest of the time they're out

00:06:36.820 playing in the neighborhood kids can't go out anymore they're not allowed to go out there's no

00:06:40.560 space for all those kids simone you're the one who brought up the wolves of new york kids so

00:06:45.540 these were like a family of like eight people who lived in a studio apartment and they never went

00:06:50.400 in new york leaving it once a year and they grew up perfectly emotionally normal and everything like

00:06:55.700 that you do not need space you do not need the outdoors they may have a modifying effects but they

00:07:01.900 are not there are ways to build culture around this and this is like if i was going to conceptualize

00:07:07.600 a fertility stack instead of putting culture at the top of it i'd say a fertility stack is almost like a

00:07:15.340 chart on the wall that like you need to read and culture is the lens so somebody can be like

00:07:20.380 oh that housing number is fuzzy and it's like no just change out the lens like ka-chink and it's

00:07:24.460 like oh it's not fuzzy anymore you don't need to because if you change culture you can change the

00:07:30.380 optimal amount of really almost anything in the fertility stack whether that's income or housing

00:07:36.580 or space but continue yeah okay well here here what i'm showing here on the screen is this is a map of

00:07:42.220 fertility in sydney australia so you have great it's greater sydney so all the surrounding area is the

00:07:49.260 sydney suburbs oh wow and then you have you know downtown sydney is that area with a fertility of

00:07:55.900 one so you're in the when you're in single family homes and you know and i want to emphasize that

00:08:01.960 this is normies okay you know these are this this could also be a map of urban monoculturism

00:08:07.840 well i think that's the thing is in this fertility roundup zvi who mentions your work and talked about

00:08:12.900 it also points out that what we're looking at is a lot of selection effects too you know like

00:08:17.700 people who are choosing not to have kids don't go to urban i i know that and that's a that that is a

00:08:23.380 a fair point i do want to point out particularly you know in terms of the selection argument well

00:08:29.020 i don't know if we want to take a minute here to look to go over this chart before we go to

00:08:32.340 go on let's go over this chart yeah so we do see that that the fertility in the sydney suburbs is very

00:08:41.540 healthy it's you know around two you know up to up to 2.1 yeah in many of the sydney suburbs as you

00:08:51.300 get to the urban core you're down to 1.3 1.2 and then and then in the in the urban core of sydney

00:08:57.060 your fertility is 1.0 and i there's a couple there's one factor that i really want to emphasize

00:09:02.700 is is is that is most of the apartment towers you know and and in in downtown urban areas it's all

00:09:10.760 you know high-rise apartment towers and most of these apartment towers uh tend to be studios in

00:09:16.880 one and two bedroom apartments so they they tend to you know they tend to be very uh very small and

00:09:23.260 there's actually there's actually pretty strong cultural norms now that didn't exist before where

00:09:30.620 you know the boys are supposed to have their you know if you have a boy they're supposed to have

00:09:35.960 their own room with only boys if a girl is supposed to have their own room with only girls and it's

00:09:39.840 supposed to be separate from the parents that's the i'm not saying i'm not pressing about putting a

00:09:44.660 value judgment on that i'm just saying that that's the norm that we have now and it's a pretty strong

00:09:49.340 norm because child protective services you know it will actually use things like that you know as a

00:09:56.960 judgment for whether they'll take somebody's kids away right so so this is this is a pretty

00:10:02.980 so we need to we need to stop that in government i mean i think that this is a great point you know

00:10:07.140 if we get in with the trump administration with this task force we need to be removing those sorts

00:10:12.600 of barriers with with child protective services and i'd also note when you're talking about the city

00:10:17.920 and people living in these cramped spaces a point that z made in his roundup that i thought was really

00:10:22.380 powerful which is that you actually probably want smaller apartments being made in urban centers

00:10:29.460 rather than larger apartments if what you care about is fertility rates because they are smaller

00:10:34.960 apartments than individual people what is really correlated with a drop in fertility rates isn't

00:10:39.280 living in smaller apartments but it's living with roommates that's the thing that has like the

00:10:43.140 biggest drop and so if you get a bunch of like two bedrooms in like the the middle of a city instead

00:10:47.520 of really small studios then that means more people are living with roommates really that's

00:10:52.400 what's happening and instead of having more room to themselves and more money to themselves whereas i

00:10:56.840 would say like the number one thing for me for an urban center would be to change the zoning to make

00:11:02.060 very inexpensive extremely small units for people during the stage of their life where they're looking

00:11:08.380 for a wife and i think you can already see do you engage in the stage of life where you go to a city to

00:11:13.140 look for a wife lyman stone did data on this and i'm sure you've looked at it where he shows that

00:11:17.560 actually being in a metro area increases your lifetime fertility rate whereas it's living with

00:11:23.500 parents or living with a group that decreases it you you saw that to the extent that it helps you get

00:11:28.440 married younger it's really helpful well also to the extent that you get younger and make a lot of

00:11:34.000 money younger because there's additional research on housing and fertility shows that if you acquire a home

00:11:40.700 at a younger age that has a positive effect on her fertility um because theoretically that could be

00:11:46.580 like an additional income stream it's more financial stability it can make people feel more comfortable

00:11:50.900 but right now of course as a young person it's really hard to buy a home but if you go to a city and make a

00:11:56.340 lot of money find a partner like that's great so i like that point all right let him talk

00:12:01.300 right right so there there is you know what what you just mentioned i i you know i i think that that

00:12:08.940 that that i have to disagree with it and and here's why because you know i did read you know

00:12:15.200 fertility roundup and i i think it's it's it's it is it does jibe with how a lot of free market

00:12:21.740 economists think but but actually what has happened and we have enough experience to see this is that

00:12:29.140 east asia has done exactly this east asia has has a ton of exactly what you're talking about very

00:12:39.200 inexpensive you know small apartments for singles one and twos and what i what i had a post that got a

00:12:47.320 lot of attention uh i think on sunday is i i called it a it's a de facto one child policy where the people

00:12:55.760 have tiny apartments they're very inexpensive but they're very very small and all across asia and

00:13:02.800 the places where that are built like this this is where you see fertility rates you know in seoul

00:13:07.820 of you know of i think 0.55 or something in seoul and and you know it's there's kind of a

00:13:14.980 misconception that seoul is very expensive actually the rents in seoul are 75 percent less

00:13:22.000 than in the in new york city so you're going to pay wow 25 percent in seoul what you're going to

00:13:28.780 pay in new york city so i lived in seoul in in one of these units i've i've been to korea three times

00:13:33.980 so we we have both we both know korea but go ahead go ahead no so i i lived in one of these units i

00:13:39.080 would i actually could not sing the praises of this style of unit enough for high fertility rates

00:13:44.080 and i'll explain why when i let in the shower units so first i need to talk about how small these

00:13:49.140 units are the one that i lived in was probably about double the size of a twin mattress in terms

00:13:55.280 of like the room vault space maybe maybe three twin mattresses if you like cut them up and like

00:14:00.400 the restroom was a toilet and then on top of the toilet was a shower head like they didn't have a

00:14:05.820 separate space to go for like showering and toilet it was just in a corner and that was it

00:14:09.680 and it really felt like the room from it crowd i don't know if anyone's seen that episode where

00:14:14.160 they get the tv that's too big man these anti-piracy outs are getting really mean i think we're sitting

00:14:20.120 too close to the screen and the floor's all sticky over here all right okay let's move back then

00:14:25.040 i still think we're too close well then sit in the sink i'm not sitting in the sink again

00:14:38.600 okay princess your flat is way too small for this telly

00:14:43.580 what's wrong with you now i need to go to the toilet

00:14:50.580 i'll hold it in

00:14:58.160 but the point being is i was able to afford this place very inexpensively while i had a high-paying

00:15:05.860 job and then send that money for my wife to get her graduate degree and save money and then we

00:15:11.460 used money i saved during that period to like buy a real house if if i had to live in like a new york

00:15:17.580 style like one of these larger houses i wouldn't have been able to save as much money and set myself

00:15:21.920 up as much like what are your thoughts on that well i i mean this is this is why you know i try to be

00:15:29.120 sort of agnostic on what the answer is and just kind of you know be be driven as much as i can

00:15:36.460 you know by the data and i don't want to claim to be to have a hundred percent of the answers but i do

00:15:42.720 want to say that you know the lowest fertility rates that we see in the world are places you know

00:15:50.160 whether it be in china or korea or even even tokyo tokyo does a little bit better but tokyo's

00:15:55.140 fertility is still only around 1.0 right but but these are places where housing is actually

00:16:01.080 abundant and cheap but it's very small well and i think that's if it comes back to culture like

00:16:06.960 again this like i'm really interested in the effects of that psychedelics can have from a

00:16:11.820 therapeutic standpoint whether you're dealing with depression or ptsd um but the research all

00:16:17.080 shows basically if you just have a trip you're just like okay whatever try it out but you don't go

00:16:22.320 in with structure intentions you know the sort of a framework and plan like you don't change you

00:16:27.640 don't see an improvement in your situation whereas you come in with this framework of you're working

00:16:33.320 with a therapist here's the plan you're coming in with these intentions it can be transformational

00:16:37.840 i think the problem is in these cities that we're talking about there isn't this perception of okay you

00:16:42.740 go to the city to find your spouse to make the money to buy your house to start your family it is

00:16:47.140 you go to the city to have fun you go to the city to travel more you go to the city

00:16:50.800 you know to to do all these things and when when we look at these asian cultures that are especially

00:16:58.400 struggling with low birth rates when you look at the cultural traditions around dating they're just

00:17:04.780 abysmal like it's very very hard for people to find partners so it's no surprise to me that people

00:17:10.480 in these cities are struggling if you shifted that and i know tokyo for example is trying you know

00:17:15.580 japan is trying to create new dating apps for example and if you changed what it meant to live

00:17:20.400 in the city and suddenly there were tons of singles events or perhaps sponsored by the government where

00:17:25.120 you get dinner and drinks and it's speed dating i think that things could be changed really quickly

00:17:30.000 because it shifts the purpose of that low-cost housing so i don't know i've got another

00:17:36.700 yeah put up more put up more but i want to hear you address before we go further i want to hear you

00:17:41.520 address the limestone metro statistic because i found that very interesting specifically this is the

00:17:46.580 one here that being in a metro increases your overall fertility rate if you're in a metro when

00:17:52.020 you're younger well okay this is that there's a you know the how how are the u.s data classifies

00:17:57.880 metro is really it's not very granular is is what i'm saying and i know exactly i i've studied this

00:18:05.740 data and i know exactly what he's talking about i i read i read those papers 100 and so i live in

00:18:12.260 an urban area i i live in a city according to the the census data so i'm i'm in an urban area but i am

00:18:20.100 i am sitting here in a a five-bedroom single-family home that's that's urban and it's all jumbled

00:18:27.800 together so i'm looking you have a five-bedroom home more births we need to brought five bedrooms you

00:18:34.280 have a backyard too well no wonder you like housing you're you're living the life here i it's not

00:18:39.820 amazing but it's a mansion i'm gonna put on i'm gonna put on visualization and more birth house

00:18:45.560 this estate is basically buckingham palace's less famous cousin with five rooms and stunning gardens

00:18:51.800 it's a quintessential british manor it's said to have an underground pool and cinema

00:18:57.060 yeah yeah we put i have five turrets and and seven seven butler's quarters no i'm just kidding

00:19:07.600 no no no but and a slide down like a you know you need one butler per kid no we actually my my i have

00:19:15.620 a family member who insists on having an au pair for every kid they have and they're a very high

00:19:20.820 infertility family and it is comical i don't know i can say this must be nice yeah it must be nice

00:19:28.560 no i i do want to it does make it it does make it a lot easier and this is one thing that we need to

00:19:35.560 talk about i think you know they're they're a great you know some of the great pronatalist

00:19:40.460 communicators one of my one of them is my friend tim carney he has a book called family unfriendly it's

00:19:45.880 he's a he's a father of six oh yeah yeah yeah he's a he's a great guy i hope i hope you guys can

00:19:50.960 meet him at some point we did we did we had him we had him over uh yeah the night before we saw you

00:19:56.660 he went to our first one oh great oh great yeah and he's awesome yeah we we yeah we should probably

00:20:03.440 have him on the podcast but his point and it's a point that i think you guys have made also

00:20:07.740 is that one aspect of of parenting that that's important for for from a pronatal perspective is

00:20:16.980 for it to be easy like like you can't you can't have this high impact helicopter parenting and and

00:20:23.440 have six kids as i do i mean yes we were we we probably did a a more careful detailed bit of work

00:20:30.960 with our older ones than we than we you know but it it's fine and they actually get to be a more

00:20:36.200 responsible and they and more more confident uh you know my my my 17 year old took one of the cars

00:20:43.820 and she's i i don't know i don't even i don't think any of us even know where she is and that's

00:20:48.260 she's she's she's she's trustworthy and she's very responsible so it's okay and but but you know we

00:20:55.760 can't it is impossible to helicopter her i i don't have i don't have the capacity yeah and that is

00:21:02.860 to your point to her benefit also helicoptering religious like i i was just thinking today

00:21:08.520 about how i introduced foods to our first kid of like i pureed the food at home i spoon fed

00:21:16.600 everything nothing went in the mouth nothing was swallowed like and it was very stressful and very

00:21:21.820 expensive and now like with our kids i just give them like stuff to chew on when they're teething and

00:21:27.360 then just let them hand feed with non-choking hazard foods when they feel like it and i don't

00:21:32.420 worry about it and it's so much more sustainable and that's just like all across the board so it

00:21:36.240 is but again that's culture but yeah but i did want to mention i did want to mention as well you know

00:21:40.420 talk about you know urbanization as i say i i'm part of the urban category and you know having a house

00:21:48.300 in the suburbs is not the is not what i'm talking about i'm not talking you can have pretty good

00:21:53.020 density in in the suburbs what i'm talking about is these these high rise like we we saw the map

00:21:59.500 like soul like sydney where where the suburbs of sydney have have quite healthy fertility and it's that

00:22:06.380 urban core and you can argue why and there is an intersection i do want to mention that there i do

00:22:11.360 agree that there's an intersection with culture there this didn't used to be the case and i point this

00:22:16.180 out to people like people are like oh city's always low fertility that's that's not true like there have

00:22:21.380 been periods of immigration in the united states where everyone was like ha ha ha the irish you

00:22:25.920 know it's always like five families living in one house with tons of kids like there have been

00:22:30.420 periods in history where urban centers had high fertility rates but they were always periods not

00:22:37.000 where urban centers had larger houses but where there were cultures in those urban centers that

00:22:41.760 normalized sharing the space well yeah so no you're you're you're right fertility has been you know

00:22:47.840 fertility in during the during the baby boom in new york city was above three so so you can but but i

00:22:56.400 do want to emphasize what i was saying before is that is that we have kind of a confluence of you

00:23:02.340 know their modern expectations say that you know if a if a boy is is above like toddler age and a girl

00:23:09.420 is above toddler age they're supposed to each have a separate room and separate from their parents

00:23:14.560 without yeah that's what we need to be working on i i i do agree that that that you know having a

00:23:20.340 lighter hand and having you know a lot more flexibility about these things is a great idea but

00:23:25.280 i'm i'm i'm you know i'm also you know reporting things as they are this is this is the norm that we

00:23:31.480 have and in this in this norm you know having a bunch of kids in an apartment is just not done it is

00:23:41.340 it is not almost non-existent in a great way that you could fix this and this is something that i'd

00:23:46.020 love to do you know if we have a ton more kids like we go for mass production is vertical

00:23:51.520 hi simone we need to do is get the like a bar that can support them and then basically just hang

00:23:59.480 them in bags so we can okay okay so like a bat cave or something like that yeah meat hooks

00:24:07.200 push a button and it goes then moves back and i hook up all right no we we used to joke that we

00:24:12.960 were going to go to old morgues and buy the the drawers you know just pull out that wait simone i

00:24:17.600 don't remember this because i would have done that we've joked about that like a billion times every

00:24:21.360 time we watch great idea kind of well can you put like a an alert for this i want my kids to sleep

00:24:27.360 in the morgue towards we can pull them out your reporters would go apoplectic about this but let's

00:24:33.000 see more stats here dad i i okay you you want to see more on on density yeah and then i also want

00:24:39.020 to talk about the element of the fertility stack because i i am curious you you ran us through it

00:24:45.120 when we were to see but i want to hear i want to hear the part that i'm convinced density wise that

00:24:50.920 density is okay what you need is a cultural tradition of living in different levels of density

00:24:57.300 at different stages of your life um which is what i was raised with and if you had this cultural

00:25:04.580 tradition which i believe we actually have just some people have forgotten it because we don't

00:25:09.160 pass on our culture well anymore it's it's it's obvious to people oh i go in the city when i'm young

00:25:13.880 and looking for a spouse and then i leave the city and have kids after that and yet you know one of the

00:25:18.500 things i heard that really got me is you're supposed to go to a city and run now people go to a city and

00:25:24.260 sit and and they don't understand why their lives end up becoming a disaster but yes tell me about

00:25:29.480 this okay so this this is you know for for cities around the world you know i found and i again i'm

00:25:36.640 trying to simply report things as i see them you know i'm trying to be a referee here and just present

00:25:44.040 the data one one thing that is a very strong correlation is that the higher the share of

00:25:52.400 apartments as a fraction of total housing you know the lower the fertility rate so you have places

00:25:59.360 you know like china and korea spain also italy also where almost all the housing is apartments

00:26:06.700 uh they tend to have lower fertility and and places on the other end of the spectrum

00:26:11.320 like at you know what you know atlanta is a good example where almost all of the housing is

00:26:18.020 houses you know fertility you know is much higher so sorry does anyone here believe that paris has a

00:26:25.340 higher fertility rate than atlanta or dallas that seems unbelievable to me well yeah france overall has a

00:26:34.560 has has has a relatively high fertility well there's a couple things about paris i i do believe that

00:26:40.860 i do believe that data point because paris has a very high proportion of uh muslim immigrants

00:26:46.980 so i think that well i'm catholics right i mean catholicism helps yeah but no catholicism doesn't help

00:26:54.120 well i i think i i think what we could be seeing a strong in paris we could be seeing a strong effect

00:26:59.620 of of muslim immigrants um so in in a lot of people i i'm sorry i need to be clear about the

00:27:05.840 stats here around paris france typically has a uniquely high fertility rate among its white

00:27:11.560 population as well it is not just the immigrants that are boosting it yeah they probably have an

00:27:16.520 effect you're absolutely right about that but it also has a uniquely high native fertility rate

00:27:20.800 yeah and and france you know one thing that's really cool about france is we we i'm i'm hearing

00:27:27.460 baby industry there right yeah i'm sorry i'm gonna mute myself until i talk about a problem not that's

00:27:32.020 one um you know me and baby industry hung out and we i i got her to sleep but at our last meetup yeah

00:27:38.280 she's your biggest fan i think she she can probably hear you and be like oh i'm missing out where's my

00:27:43.540 dan right so but you know what one thing i i want to say in paris or in france's favor

00:27:52.160 is that is that the french leaders like have no problem just saying like hey guys for the sake of

00:27:57.660 the nation like everybody please have more children and like in in the anglosphere and like in england

00:28:04.720 that would be gauche and like completely embarrassing like the french prime minister and not not just

00:28:10.840 macron but like every french prime prime minister since world war ii has said that that that you

00:28:18.080 know it's important to have children and you know to and don't you don't you like being in a subversive

00:28:24.560 movement like for american culture isn't it even better that i can say have more children and it's

00:28:29.360 subversive and cool and rebel like yeah no i yeah there there is something something cool about that to

00:28:35.700 to be the the underground the be a rebel beat the system out pro natalist underground right

00:28:42.480 yeah no you gotta have we will replace you as our slogan

00:28:46.240 i'm a very big tent kind of guy so that's my own but but yeah actually simone can we can we talk to

00:28:54.600 to kevin dullard about making natalist

00:28:56.460 make the slogan we will replace you oh boy

00:29:02.700 anyway anyway but yeah no i i do i i do want to emphasize that the density and apartment living is

00:29:13.860 not the only thing but in order to i as far as i can tell in order to have healthy fertility and live

00:29:22.200 an apartment or a dense configuration you really have to have a very pro natal culture so israel has

00:29:29.580 that you know what one example that people give is that you have uh high fertility in the you know

00:29:37.460 one of the more dense places on earth is the nile delta like around cairo egypt yeah mostly you know

00:29:43.660 and that's true you do have high fertility you also have a high i just saw data just this week

00:29:50.020 that the the the percentage of the population that believes in pure sharia law is like 80 some

00:30:00.520 percent in egypt it's like a hair it's a smidgen higher than in afghanistan whoa in egypt what happened

00:30:08.520 so like the the common man in egypt what is very extremely hardcore like fundamentalist islam

00:30:19.740 okay your man on the street in egypt yeah so there's an interesting like political point here

00:30:26.560 which is you know the amer you know our american leadership had the had the idea that we needed to

00:30:31.560 knock off the military dictatorship in egypt in order so that the people can get you know can be free

00:30:39.180 and so you can have a liberal society actually the military dictatorship was the reason for the

00:30:44.100 liberal society they were they were keeping a lid unlike unlike the the extreme radical fundamentalism

00:30:52.540 that that's the that's like actually the the core belief of like 80 of the population that's one it's

00:30:58.360 such an interesting contrast to iran which is so lost god despite the government really trying to

00:31:04.040 impose it yeah we did an episode on this it's something like only like 26 of the population

00:31:10.320 still identifies as religious and only like 40 believes in in like heaven yeah so this is the

00:31:17.440 power of grassroots culture this is a strong a strong data point in support of your your your theory of

00:31:24.560 people rebelling against the government in a way because because in egypt you had a secular government

00:31:30.100 and a grassroots that's like you know fervently religious and in iran you you you have had the

00:31:37.720 opposite effect where you had a a theocratic group on top and yeah when this is the point i am i am

00:31:42.960 like like a lightning rod about it is so important that people get it through their heads that if you

00:31:48.760 attempt to enforce through laws and through government religious systems it is the worst thing you could

00:31:57.820 conceivably do for it's gonna backfire if you make the government do it but for your religion

00:32:04.280 if you if you want more extreme evangelical christians or more catholics porn bans will have

00:32:11.960 the exact opposite effect if you want more of that banning gay marriage will have the exact opposite

00:32:18.520 effect anything you attempt to do to heavy-handedly enforce your religious values on a society

00:32:25.080 has the effect of killing that religion within that society you can see this in the data it is just an

00:32:30.940 overwhelmingly powerful effect but what i want to hear here and and this is something you know when

00:32:35.200 we're talking about all of this where i'm like oh my god it is so important that people get it is

00:32:39.960 the culture and family culture not about enforcing culture from the government but like you have to

00:32:45.820 take responsibility i.e you cannot be like oh the government will like ban porn and like my kids will

00:32:51.660 be fine or whatever like how do you personally teach your kids when it's okay to get married what's their

00:32:57.900 sexuality etc and i think if you don't take this culture first mindset it's very easy and i see

00:33:05.080 this even with members of the prenatalist movement to say i'm just going to raise my kids the way my

00:33:10.060 grandparents you know like i.e like we're going to go back to the way things were in the 1950s and

00:33:14.200 1940s and i'll raise them in that format and within a household that's operating within that format

00:33:19.440 and they'll be fine and i'm like no they won't they will all deconvert you you can see this in the

00:33:24.740 data you'll you'll keep like one of your kids and if we don't like hold that in front of people's

00:33:30.460 faces like you can't just do things the way you used to you can't just enforce these values on

00:33:36.140 people then they end up focusing on this little stuff like well you know i'm a traditional christian

00:33:41.040 and i'm trying to make you know housing smaller you know what i mean like housing barrier well i i do

00:33:45.360 want to say that that in the data housing you know does seem to matter quite a bit so i don't want

00:33:51.540 to dismiss it i don't want the other thing you know i don't want to say it doesn't matter i'm not

00:33:56.120 i'm not going to say it's the most important thing but i'm not the other the other reason that i i

00:34:00.360 stick to housing so much or that i that i mentioned housing quite a bit is that it's it's so lasting and

00:34:08.320 if you know the these where you have a sea of urban high rises you know almost everywhere in the

00:34:16.700 world that you see that you see you know fertility rates uh extremely low usually below one i mean

00:34:23.300 so so that that type of that level of density i i in the data it just looks it looks very bad but i

00:34:31.720 i will agree that the the pronatalist culture is that is a trump card that can overcome you know a

00:34:38.640 whole lot and that that's where people live is largely culturally influenced right like okay if

00:34:44.500 you're more urban monoculture minded if the urban monoculture has infested your mindset more

00:34:48.760 you're more likely to live near an urban center and i understand like it's one of these things to me

00:34:54.400 where it's like but i'm able to live in an urban center without that affecting me i just don't know

00:35:00.360 if like smaller houses affect or i have seen any evidence that's and i mean any evidence at all

00:35:06.520 that that that smaller living spaces affect already high fertility subgroups i did see and i i don't have it

00:35:14.420 in front of me and i wish i did but but limestone did find that even for orthodox jews he found that

00:35:21.120 that even for orthodox jews they had higher fertility when they lived in the new york suburbs

00:35:26.480 than they did in in the urban core so it didn't even cross traditions because that's the thing that

00:35:35.800 really get when i mean track across i don't i i think it's really like silly and i basically personally

00:35:41.980 ignore any grass that's like people currently living in the center of manhattan have a few kids

00:35:46.460 i'm like obviously right but what i want to see is people who have ever lived in the center of manhattan

00:35:51.440 how does that affect their fertility rate because again i think that this is a life stage thing

00:35:55.600 well it you know i i had an interesting conversation which i um you know with like a young professional

00:36:06.600 i i i kind of did a a tour of newly built apartments in in bethesda rockville near near where i live and i

00:36:14.500 was talking to people you know first of all one notable thing is that among you know i i i went there

00:36:20.400 and i acted like i was somebody looking for a three-bedroom apartment and i went to the rental

00:36:24.460 office and i asked and and four different newly built towers that i visited had zero three-bedroom

00:36:32.240 apartments in the entire building i mean i don't mean i don't mean none i don't mean zero three

00:36:37.280 bedrooms available to rent i mean yeah i mean the building was constructed with no units being more

00:36:44.620 than two that makes sense because from an investment standpoint the understanding of the real estate

00:36:49.920 market is this basically three plus bedroom houses are the worst possible investment because there is a

00:36:56.280 glut of that inventory from boomers becoming empty nesters and moving out of their three plus

00:37:01.820 bedroom houses is big downsize and then there's this massive population of dinks or one kid

00:37:09.280 couples or families that only want two-bedroom or can afford two-bedroom houses and spaces yeah well i

00:37:16.480 don't i i'm not i'm not a developer i have a there's a developer that i'm communicating sometimes with on x

00:37:22.280 yeah it was uh bobby fijan and i want to talk to him more about what exactly are the economic

00:37:28.580 reasons but it's it's a pretty it's a pretty dramatic fact that that all over america you know

00:37:37.300 three-bedroom and larger apartments are almost not built at all yeah i think it i think it i think

00:37:43.060 it has something to do with the fact you get more more paying renters per square foot stuff like that

00:37:48.820 it may have something to do with rules around you know fire escapes and egresses and things like that

00:37:55.360 i'm not i'm not sure i really think it's about demographic trends it could be i i don't i i don't

00:38:00.600 want to say why they're they're doing this but they this is what they are doing and they are they

00:38:05.060 are almost exclusively building like studios and ones and twos almost exclusively that totally makes

00:38:10.600 sense and so i talked to a a guy who he was a graduate of of uva top graduate high income married

00:38:18.160 he had he and his wife happily married he and his wife have one kid he said he stopped at one

00:38:24.740 they live in a two-bedroom apartment in one of these buildings he said they would like to have

00:38:30.200 four children but he doesn't feel like he could do it in the space that he has he said if i had a

00:38:35.680 single family home i would i would love to have four children and i'm like holy shit well but this is

00:38:42.200 the point right like he doesn't feel like he i mean obviously he can do it in the space he has

00:38:47.500 but the cultural expectations lead him not to feel like he can do it in the space he has right yeah

00:38:53.940 yeah that yeah so you're you have a you have a good point in the in the past people would put a lot of

00:39:00.880 people in in a you know lincoln's log cabin probably one one room probably had you know the entire family

00:39:08.760 plus grandma and and uncle jethro or whatever um but what i what i guess i'm saying here is look you

00:39:14.860 can you can choose to fight like you're choosing like a slider like where do i place my fight on this

00:39:20.400 particular issue right why would i place any fight in the getting larger cheaper apartments when i know

00:39:27.820 that like that fight is almost impossible to win but the culture fight is at an individual

00:39:34.300 intentionally pro natalist individual pretty easy to win i i hear you that's it that is a that is a

00:39:42.200 good point i i do want to you know i am very troubled by by east asia i'm very troubled by

00:39:49.560 asia and the fact that they seem to have painted themselves into a corner with like basically 100

00:39:57.920 percent of their housing being i would say unsuitable to families by modern norms and

00:40:04.920 i mean maybe it's possible to get people to have you know to to to put like six seven people in one

00:40:12.580 room again but i i want to i want to elaborate on a point that you were making because you've made

00:40:18.580 it before more completely which is to say housing is very durable you know once you've built all of

00:40:23.240 this housing that's the way it is so in east asia you can't be like oh you need to change all your

00:40:28.040 housing to make it like bigger like the housing is already there right and it's going to be there

00:40:32.120 for another 30 40 years right so that's a that's that's a that's a problem if and you know one thing

00:40:38.280 i want to mention the fastest growth like of any country that as far as i know the fastest demographic

00:40:48.460 growth of any country in history was that was the united states in the early part of its history

00:40:54.380 so america went from like i think about 3 million i may get this number not exactly right but from

00:41:02.560 about 3 million in 1776 to about 76 million in the year 1900 so just and it was mostly mostly mostly

00:41:14.620 birth rates not immigration that's right that's exactly right it was uh an average in our area

00:41:20.240 i think in the 1800s it was an average of 14 children per woman oh my goodness we went for it

00:41:26.860 yeah and and the the thing that i do want to there's a couple things that were happening there so so the

00:41:32.520 culture element was a big piece of it you had these you had these these great awakenings like round after

00:41:38.080 round of great awakenings in the united states that that that that re-infused americans with this

00:41:45.340 fervent religiosity but another thing you had is the pioneer culture where where people and i could

00:41:51.360 see this in my own ancestry i i had a a lovely family friend who who traced my family's ancestry back i

00:41:58.080 have some of my ancestry goes back to the mayflower and you could see you could see that people you know

00:42:04.180 people would constantly were constantly going west and they would they would stay in one place for like

00:42:08.400 a couple years and then and then everybody would go further west and you know constantly spread out

00:42:13.640 on new territory and that seems to you know this this abundant space and the ability to spread out

00:42:21.900 seems to have been one of the factors that that did play a role in america's ability to expand so

00:42:29.020 quickly demographically yeah so i'd point out here that what really killed american demographics

00:42:35.440 from this perspective right and i actually think when you talk about east asian fertility rates and

00:42:40.180 you're talking about cultural norms you know always modern cultural norms so let's let's like study where

00:42:45.800 these cultural norms came from if you look at during our period of rapid growth it was common even in

00:42:50.060 the frontier so you can look at our house which was built originally on the frontier it was originally

00:42:54.380 built it's like a stone house by one guy and if you look at the way the house is divided in the way

00:42:59.620 the rooms are used so you can see where like the piping goes at one point four different families were

00:43:03.880 living in this one house they were all related like brother sister etc you know so like you would marry

00:43:08.800 someone while you were still living with your parents and then you divide your house up among all

00:43:11.960 the siblings or something and then go out of one of you made a lot of money and and so what changed

00:43:16.460 this cultural norm it was world war ii after world war ii basically america had this big economic boom

00:43:22.640 largely unsustainable it was because it was exploiting the rest of the world and this economic

00:43:27.580 boom is where concepts like the possibility of a nuclear family were born i.e a husband goes out and

00:43:34.080 supports the rest of the family on one income this is not the norm anywhere historically this was just a

00:43:40.180 result of an economic boom that happened in america due to a cheat code that was basically like

00:43:45.800 europe's factories are all destroyed and you know all the everywhere else in the world that could produce

00:43:50.940 high-tech stuff had destroyed their economies and so we could you know really gain from that so we had

00:43:56.380 this ultra luxurious lifestyle anyway the culture that was the birthplace of the pre-urban monoculture

00:44:02.980 culture was born here in america and then that was exported to japan that was exported to china

00:44:09.740 that was exported to korea that was exported to all these other places in regards to how much space do

00:44:15.020 you need it was actually specifically after the war in america where it became common for people not

00:44:20.760 to marry until the person they were going to marry owned a home that is not traditional america that

00:44:25.020 specifically i think it changed from 40 percent to 80 percent after i think i do think that the you know

00:44:30.820 the housing aspect is one of is is one of the factors

00:44:36.800 uh that i think gave us the baby boom so so from 1946 to 1940 64 of course fertility in the united states

00:44:46.500 you know shot up to like above three which was amazing but we can look at the data and we know

00:44:52.600 that it's mostly medical advances well i would say no i if you're talking about the works in progress piece

00:44:58.240 i read everything i read all that yeah i i do you know they they they got some stuff there's some stuff

00:45:04.060 that i agree with uh most most strongly one of the things that i agree with most strongly

00:45:09.000 is you had you had a high rate of young marriage so so that was you had people women marrying at the

00:45:16.200 at an average age of 20 which was the earliest that women married like in in u.s history so so you had

00:45:24.420 this this really young age of marriage so that was one cause of the baby boom

00:45:27.920 a huge cause maybe the single the single greatest cause but another cause and the works in progress

00:45:35.400 piece did point point to this thing was you had a huge surge in suburban building you know so it

00:45:42.700 wasn't fancy it wasn't uh they weren't these little houses in a ticky-tacky yeah they weren't like

00:45:50.100 great houses but they're fine actually well it enabled early homeownership too in the sense of like

00:45:55.540 economic independence and security well there's a guy bill i can say as a father of six you know one

00:46:01.760 of my experience my my kids are very that they can be high conflict at times let me just you know

00:46:10.020 which is maybe a good healthy spirit i guess but uh it's not a bug i think it's great but having space

00:46:18.380 just a little space to spread them out and put them in little quarters that over here over there

00:46:24.020 you know is the greatest peace mechanism that i know of in our household i agree but you can do

00:46:31.280 that without extra space so you so in our household you know how we do this we do this with tvs we have

00:46:36.840 little play tvs and and when the kids are getting rough we just set up all the tvs and we go okay go to

00:46:41.980 your tp and play there okay interesting i mean the the problem with older you'll see you'll see it

00:46:49.060 gets more difficult when they get a little older because you know my second daughter she is an

00:46:54.760 incredible talker she's the funniest person uh that i know and you know i mean even a level of humor that

00:47:02.340 that that is is very remarkable but but she she's really quick-witted and when she gets to arguing with

00:47:08.140 her siblings you know it's it's nuclear it's nuclear i mean if you can have a nuclear war of

00:47:16.960 words she you know and and the only thing that i know to do when that when that happens is to get

00:47:22.820 them in different parts of the the house or somebody takes a walk or this or that you know and you know

00:47:28.260 having a yard having a place for the kids one aspect that i think is very valuable as well as is for

00:47:35.200 little kids to be able to play in the yard you know basically relatively unsupervised and that you

00:47:41.000 know and this is back to what tim carney was saying about kind of the the lower effort parenting as

00:47:48.400 opposed to you know if i lived in an apartment in a in an apartment in a high rise i'd have to

00:47:52.940 we'd have to come up with things for the kids to do five times you can't do that even in the

00:47:58.480 suburbs now it's illegal we've had to see that's called on us for having our kids play in the yard

00:48:01.960 unsupervised yeah we bought this place thinking oh this is great it's right by a park our kids can

00:48:07.820 go play in the park no we would be if we get into the administration with a with a you know the panel

00:48:16.220 one of the things we really need to focus on is dismantling cps or at least re-establishing norms

00:48:21.260 around how you can call it and why you can call it right i i yeah i do think i i that is a i do believe

00:48:26.920 that that is a genuine issue which i i i don't i can't really put a finger on on in terms of numbers

00:48:33.140 but i think you know they're they they have very strict expectations about about density so so they

00:48:41.720 are one of the enforcers of of the expectation of you know lower density and and you know crap they

00:48:48.200 have a strong concept of crowding and you know things like this and also child's independence you know

00:48:53.580 if they go to the park by themselves these are issues that you know there's no that none of these

00:48:58.640 are indications of abuse but but and and i think it's it is very you know traumatic i you know we're

00:49:07.460 very fortunate you know knock on wood right that that hasn't happened you know to us but i it has

00:49:13.860 happened to friends and and you know even to a relative and it's very traumatic and i can see why

00:49:20.680 after that happens somebody would be very reluctant to have further kids because it because it's it

00:49:28.540 feels illegal like it literally feels like we're in trouble for having this many kids sometimes which

00:49:34.680 is not good i mean it's not and it's not just that too it's not just cps it's also the level of

00:49:40.780 regulatory control over child care like the credentials you need to work at a daycare for example

00:49:45.820 and even like you can see the dampening effects on fertility just from their babysitting regulation

00:49:50.860 i mean we have it relatively lucky compared to some places considering you can't just have your

00:49:55.900 neighbor watch oh yeah this is this is a this is an antenatal factor as well which is that you know in

00:50:01.920 dc for example very close to where i live there's a rule that you have to have like a college degree to

00:50:08.100 watch like a a small child and i don't see how how college has anything to do with watching small

00:50:16.060 children in terms of the skill set there's no yeah seriously no reason for for that and it just makes

00:50:21.400 child care much harder to get much more expensive and you know the the fertility rate in in washington dc

00:50:27.680 itself is around 1.0 so so so what is this i mean like no one lives in dc except for college students

00:50:33.960 so that doesn't surprise me but i mean i just i don't know i'm the idea that the government wouldn't

00:50:38.920 have control over anything like this i mean there's most people don't know this but there's even like

00:50:43.720 there's some states in the u.s have regulations on how many dogs you can have for example some

00:50:47.920 city cities limit the number of dogs you can have like there's a lot of control over how people live

00:50:53.320 and i don't like any of it um so let's hear his his stack idea here the fertility stack so what aside

00:50:58.620 from housing would you say really belongs in the fertility stack and do you have it ranked by most

00:51:04.520 to least important i mean i know okay yeah i will the most important thing i would say

00:51:09.220 is pronatal belief and ethos all right culture yes so i had a i had a tweet about mongolia i don't

00:51:19.280 know if you saw that but it was it was retweeted by the the owner of the platform so it got like 10

00:51:25.780 million views or 15 million actually that's insane that's so cool yeah so but yeah elon retweeted that

00:51:32.720 but it's about it was about how mongolia has has this award that they give for mothers of four

00:51:40.160 children to six children if you're if you have at least four children you get the order of maternal

00:51:45.580 glory second class if you have six children you get the order of maternal glory first class and that

00:51:51.980 actually you know cause mongolia's fertility rate to to increase very sharply and they make a big deal

00:51:59.380 out of it and you have so you have this this pronatal ethos and if you believe that having children is

00:52:05.580 good you know is very good very important that is i would say the the the the most important thing on

00:52:13.840 your on your fertility stack so that's that's element number one and that can conquer

00:52:17.600 so much so if you want to look at a country like israel that has high fertility even though

00:52:24.660 they're dense even though they're educated even though women have more education than men even

00:52:28.000 though they're technological these are all factors that are negative right but but they have one factor

00:52:33.880 that uh is paramount which is that they believe really really intensely that having children is

00:52:41.820 centrally important and that is kind of a a trump card it's not as i say it's not the only thing

00:52:47.500 but it's if it has if it has a weighting maybe that's at least 50 percent maybe more okay so

00:52:54.200 next element of their fertility stack is marriage so age of marriage or just marriage more broadly like

00:52:59.720 both so marriage rate is one i agree with this one by the way marriage rate is one marriage age

00:53:07.140 is a is another so the the baby boom the biggest cause of the baby boom as i as i've said i think is

00:53:14.320 marriage age when when you when you get married at 20 which was the average age in of that women

00:53:20.080 married in the united states in 1960 the average age was 20 half were getting married like like

00:53:25.920 dramatically before yeah for everybody for every old spinster who gets married at the age of 23 right

00:53:31.660 that means somebody else is getting married at the age of 17 right well a better

00:53:35.640 for everybody getting married at 26 somebody's getting married at 14 okay all right okay anyway

00:53:44.580 different world different world that but but yeah yeah so i think but when the average age of marriage

00:53:51.340 was 20 like it was you know you it was almost impossible not to have like three kids because

00:53:57.940 you know you have like a 20 year span of of fertility especially you know one thing that

00:54:04.500 people really need to realize is that fertility is far far higher in the 20s than in the 30s so like

00:54:12.360 by the age of there there's a something called a fecundability and i actually want to i want to share

00:54:17.780 this chart here we go this is one of the most important charts that i think exists in all of

00:54:27.120 pronatalism so we're gonna oh okay see it right now this is the most important chart that exists

00:54:33.160 right here there it goes i'm just sharing it now tell me intrigues let's take a look here this is

00:54:39.620 called this is fecundability and this was this was done this was a study that just came out in

00:54:45.420 20 and so this is the monthly probability of being able to get pregnant and i don't know you know the

00:54:54.240 axis so i you can i i don't know if the if the axis scales according to but but so so don't look

00:55:02.660 at the axis as an exact percentage but look at the scale of it yeah i don't know what the but i like

00:55:09.740 that they they didn't go younger than 15 you know i'm just saying this graph has a totally other side

00:55:16.720 it does show though i mean like and there's obviously also a lot of complicating factors

00:55:23.300 how did they get the 15 to like 18 year old no i don't think i i don't think i i i think they

00:55:29.940 yeah that's a good question that's an interesting question all right but here we do see that

00:55:36.980 the peak of like human fertility is at the age of 20.

00:55:43.220 and isn't that interesting that i'll say it's like the peak age like physical appearance that

00:55:47.980 men just constantly want to date like no matter how old they are they want to date women who are like

00:55:52.560 20 19 20 yeah yeah yeah so it just perfectly correlates with fecundity which is right that is

00:55:59.860 pretty remarkable and another remarkable thing is that you know fecundability by the age of 32

00:56:07.380 it's already it's already down to one third of what it was at age 20 yeah so getting married

00:56:15.040 in your 20s is so massive in terms of fertility it it swamps you know almost everything else and as i

00:56:24.620 say this is what this is the easiest and most obvious explanation for the baby boom is that people

00:56:29.640 were just getting married super young and they had you know so many highly fertile years you know

00:56:36.520 and there's another thing when you when you get married young i mean i think my wife was 24 so

00:56:41.300 and i was 27 but when you get married very young like we did we had four and then and then it was

00:56:47.540 overwhelming and we we were swamped and we and we stopped and then and then we we caught our breath

00:56:51.900 and you know we're able to get a second wind and we still had time for a second wind when we were in

00:56:56.420 our in our mid-30s you know to have two more and so we but most people uh at their mid-30s they're

00:57:04.240 starting with round one so yeah so you know that's another thing that that people in previous eras

00:57:12.520 benefited from if you marry early and you have kids early you can you know you you can you can get

00:57:19.420 kicked in the stomach and roll around and then you can recover exactly get back on your feet again

00:57:25.120 well and now actually we're seeing an interesting trend and because i think you know a big discussion

00:57:30.760 that malcolm and i have our stance that we hold is pandora's box is open with with modernity with

00:57:37.440 you know globalization with culture like there is no going back you can't undo it and just go back to

00:57:44.020 how things were you're going to have to find a new way forward one of the interesting ways

00:57:47.560 and i i do want to say i i very much agree that that we we're not going to get out of this the

00:57:54.780 same way we came in exactly you got to push you got to push through and one of the ways people are

00:57:59.320 pushing through which i think is really interesting is couples are getting married young which is really

00:58:05.640 great they're freezing embryos and many of them are now then just waiting so that actually will enable

00:58:12.720 them to get pregnant at much like embryo freezing is the number one most important thing to high

00:58:19.620 fertility yeah we'll see i i you know i i as i say i want to remain agna agnostic on something

00:58:27.620 until i have seen data on whether you know i i do you know i'm a big big tent pro natalist and i and i

00:58:35.760 think you know i'm you know and i i held baby industry and it was wonderful and you know i'm i'm very

00:58:41.460 much in favor of of trying many things i don't know there is a there is a possible scenario where

00:58:49.960 where where where people you know put off forming a relationship that i saw some data that hold on

00:58:56.120 no but this is different embryo freezing versus egg mary freeze all your genetic material young and see

00:59:01.700 what what this does that is that is different you're right you're right because when you have a

00:59:06.220 frozen embryo like the the big limiting you already have a partner creating the embryos it's not

00:59:12.300 transferring them and carrying them like you could chemically delay menopause i think the oldest woman

00:59:17.480 to give birth via ivf she lied to the doctor but she was in her 60s so you can like it's amazing what

00:59:24.880 you can do yes it's the quality of the eggs at the age they're produced which is you know we have to

00:59:32.420 yeah so like i think that's that's might be an interesting way that couples go forward um another

00:59:39.200 a very a very common thing we're seeing among like chic urban couples who are like up and coming is

00:59:44.580 they get married young as young as they can and they freeze embryos and then they have kids naturally

00:59:50.160 and they're essentially creating the optionality to have high fertility but still have kids the romantic

00:59:56.860 traditional way as long as they can while also not compromising the health or feasibility of children

01:00:02.300 later in age so we're seeing interesting and promising trends on this front but none of this

01:00:07.340 changes the fact that early marriage is key here because freezing eggs and freezing sperm while a good

01:00:13.940 idea to maintain optionality is just not as effective as freezing embryos and you can't freeze an embryo

01:00:20.700 yeah and i i do i do agree what is the biggest factor in what age you get married are you asking

01:00:27.460 me anyone oh the biggest factor is culture it's oh yeah yeah i mean culture broadly yes of course of

01:00:35.240 course hey what's next in the fertility stack what's next religiosity is a is a very strong factor i mean

01:00:42.680 how i guess religiosity is yeah and and and you know one thing we talk you know you've talked about

01:00:50.120 catholic fertility and i that what we what i do seem to see is that where people do remain you know

01:00:57.340 church going and faithful they do have high fertility but as we've seen in a lot of these catholic countries

01:01:02.000 there's a a high a very high rate of d d churchification deconstruction yeah so that's religiosity

01:01:12.020 is another one you know i mentioned that the housing and the housing type i really i and i i'm i'm gonna

01:01:17.240 stick with my my guns on that that that's a significant not not the only factor but it is

01:01:21.640 one of them it is it's a factor it's a factor and there's there's tons and tons of research that show

01:01:25.900 effect so okay so there is there's research that show correlational effect i actually okay yes yeah

01:01:32.280 correlation okay yeah causation yeah is there causational data on this that you've seen dan

01:01:38.040 well i would say there is causation in the modern world in the sense that you know your

01:01:44.540 you will have a hard cap you know culturally and you know this is also true for you know rental

01:01:51.380 you know apartment complexes will kick somebody out if they have too many kids you know beyond the

01:01:56.540 capacity that they have you know for example two kids per bedroom is is seen as like a limit

01:02:02.720 that apartment complexes oh just in terms of like this is our fire code limit of residence well they'll have

01:02:08.880 their own limits that they can wow you know and i know this because when i was when when i was a

01:02:17.720 young and when i was five years old my you know my parents were having kids in an apartment and

01:02:23.660 they and my my little sister was born and they got they got summarily kicked out and told to kick you

01:02:30.720 know they had to go get a oh we should if we get a task force together make this illegal

01:02:36.380 yeah yeah that that that could help that that could help but i do i do think that people also

01:02:42.720 make the conscious decision based on their own perception of of space so i don't want to we've

01:02:48.740 talked about that quite a bit i'll i'll move on another another point another factor is men's

01:02:53.920 earnings men's earnings in particular men's earnings are pronatal women's earnings are not actually

01:03:00.120 so there is this is entirely dependent on the culture in some cultures the less money you have

01:03:05.460 the more kids you have the some cultures more money means more kids okay unless you change the

01:03:11.460 culture around women marrying like low low income like women right now and almost like i think this must

01:03:19.580 be universal across culture want to marry men who are of higher status than them and higher

01:03:26.260 economic well-being and if you if you have depressed male earnings which you totally see

01:03:32.040 in the data i just saw on x like a couple days ago a really great graph showing how income has

01:03:38.320 changed over time since the 80s across different groups and while it has gone up for women

01:03:44.920 significantly especially minority women it has plummeted for non-college educated men just plummeted

01:03:52.860 like no wonder my point is everybody knows it was in certain cultural groups and and the majority

01:03:59.380 of cultural groups the less money you have the more kids you're gonna have yeah but then you need like

01:04:04.520 even poorer women all i'm saying is basically like women are more likely to marry young if there's a

01:04:10.420 large body of like a higher status than them single men willing to marry i don't there is a i do see a lot

01:04:18.060 of that in that is something that's pretty strong in the data which is that that male earnings like

01:04:23.960 like a high earning man in most modern societies is going to have more children than a low earning man

01:04:30.520 and actually the highest earning the highest fertility subgroup is people who are high income

01:04:38.620 and low education so that would make a lot of sense yeah

01:04:43.520 so so if you if you can imagine like a low indoctrination whenever your education you should think

01:04:49.600 indoctrination high income low indoctrination but there is another problem with education that is not

01:04:55.460 just indoctrination which is simply years of schooling so you know if you assume that somebody's not going

01:05:01.080 to get pregnant while a woman's not going to get pregnant in particular while she's in school

01:05:04.380 and she and she's going all the way for a phd at the age of 32 then that's like that's like here

01:05:11.040 here i'm doing the donald trump hands here right you see what i'm doing here but there's no better

01:05:15.920 time to have kids than when you're getting a phd or something like that and people have done it

01:05:19.220 and been like yeah this is like when people should be having kids it's wild that that really does

01:05:23.760 bother me i mean one there is a culture currently in higher academia that many pro-natal women in

01:05:28.860 academia have pointed out that is pretty anti-natalist that they're getting a lot of side eye for having

01:05:33.900 kids and they're seeing it's like oh you're you're compromising your career i don't know how you're

01:05:37.920 going to make it work whereas like that should be the opposite of the case you really should start

01:05:41.800 your families while you're in school it is one of the best times to do it so academia is should be

01:05:48.560 held very responsible for this talk well there is also in relation to that you know we we have our you

01:05:54.140 know our our friend katherine pakolic you know she had eight children and also raised a further six

01:06:01.900 children from her her husband's first marriage his his wife tragically passed and then she so it was

01:06:09.060 kind of so he she inherited uh his six children after his first wife passed and then had eight more

01:06:15.940 and she is a tenured economics professor who has a phd from harvard exactly so but what did she do how

01:06:24.280 did she do it this is the person who wrote heather's children by the way continue yes hannah's children

01:06:29.420 yeah yeah so but which i which i have i actually i actually wrote the very the the very first review

01:06:37.780 of her book actually it's such a good book i love it so much yeah i wrote the first i i got a copy

01:06:43.180 before it came out and i i put the very first review nice so but but yeah she yeah yeah yeah and what she

01:06:52.000 did was she she spaced out her phd over like twice as many years and like it it took her like

01:06:56.960 like 12 years to get tenure or something like that and she just was okay with that and now she's very

01:07:03.700 successful now she's like world famous she's becoming world famous so you know it she's doing

01:07:09.960 fine in terms of her i mean becoming a world famous public intellectual is probably like the height of

01:07:17.200 human accomplishment right you know so and raising a big family you just don't have to do it all at the

01:07:24.380 same time is the point is yeah well she she did she does have it all well it just takes a while

01:07:30.660 and you don't have to you don't have to what what you have to do is have you have children in your

01:07:38.260 20s and early 30s yeah she couldn't go back and get that she couldn't be like now i've done it now

01:07:43.560 i'm gonna have my you know huge family it would be gone with all this spouse wife slash husband

01:07:50.360 first and then security not security first then wife says spouse and i'd even go so far as to say

01:07:58.180 you will never have real security if you do it the other way around because if you get security before

01:08:03.220 you get wife slash spouse then the they that wife sees you as a source of potential income resources

01:08:10.180 etc and they are much more likely to divorce you i think a huge part of the drop in divorce for our

01:08:16.520 generation has been because people understand this now and for the individuals who don't see this who

01:08:21.180 want the security first you you will never have security in your life because you are just a time

01:08:27.080 bomb of divorce well there's another point which i've i've emphasized before which is that

01:08:33.160 if you look at wealth in the united states and probably a lot of countries are similar wealth is very low

01:08:39.280 in the 20s and and it starts to climb a little bit in the 30s but wealth really takes off in the 40s and

01:08:47.820 50s but if you wait until the 40s and 50s you've your your fertility window has passed you by

01:08:54.780 so so you actually have to most people have to have children when they're young and poor i mean even

01:09:00.620 elon musk when he was like in his 20s what you know his his wealth was like one one thousandth

01:09:06.000 or one probably much less than one one thousands it was probably what like one ten thousand one

01:09:12.080 one hundredth of thousandth of what it is now you know if the point is that that there's this

01:09:18.040 trajectory that almost everyone follows in the in modern society where most people are poor in their

01:09:24.680 20s and then and then start to start to gain a little traction in their 30s and then are really

01:09:30.740 taking off financially in their 40s and 50s you you can't wait that long you have to you have to start

01:09:37.280 much earlier so just a couple more go going through the fertility stack a little bit more

01:09:40.780 so grandparents support is a big one that's a big a big thing it's called alloparenting and

01:09:48.340 grandparents are the biggest source of that in israel for example in israel you have these thick

01:09:54.000 family networks beyond the nuclear family that provide a great deal of child care yeah that

01:10:01.580 sorry just a quick side question here might not be related to this discussion

01:10:06.180 but what determines a grandparent's likelihood of helping with parenting

01:10:10.300 i mean i think it's pronatal belief it's culture yes literally culture everything you're saying here is

01:10:18.160 culture is all that oh my god melaka oh sorry oh i got it culture i mean continue continue i just

01:10:27.180 want to make sure that we understand that it's literally culture well yeah no it's it's interesting

01:10:34.060 because my own grandparents who were wonderful people but they didn't have that that culture

01:10:40.080 no my my family doesn't have that culture and so you are responsible as a perinatalist for creating

01:10:45.840 that culture in your kids and with your own yeah i mean like we we've we've baked it into our

01:10:50.840 internal family culture of like we are one like we are happy to raise our kids kids you know that is

01:10:57.600 the most pro-natal grandparents type thing that i have ever seen which is so in my neighborhood

01:11:05.400 there's a catholic couple that raised 11 children okay and then in a decently big but not enormous

01:11:14.720 you know suburban house and then you know of those 11 children one of one of their kids had like

01:11:21.080 you know caught the bug if you will you know got married young married a wonderful

01:11:26.820 young woman and wanted to have a big family you know what the parents did

01:11:30.240 they sold their house for really cheap to that son and his wife like way below market

01:11:39.060 and then they moved into an apartment and and so they they kind of and then and then now they come

01:11:47.040 over to their to this house that was once their own house to watch the kids that is wild wow

01:11:54.320 dedication this is a young couple they already have six i think they're going to get to 10 to 10 or 11

01:12:00.940 this this young couple that lives down the street and they would not be able to get there without that

01:12:05.120 parent's support and now they're young homeowners they oh that's amazing yeah so i mean that's like

01:12:10.500 hardcore like here you want to do what we did you believe in having a big family take our house

01:12:16.600 like you know but that's the culture that requires that you know like how do you build that you know

01:12:23.380 right exactly what else is in this this this stack what else is in the fertility stack

01:12:27.880 okay so another one that almost nobody thinks about but this is a significant factor across countries

01:12:35.180 and across u.s states is c-sections so the higher rate of c-sections that that there is

01:12:46.040 the the lower fertility would be and i and i think by the way that this is kind of manufactured in

01:12:51.380 the sense that i think this is completely irrelevant i think it's more likely to be

01:12:56.500 correlatory than you'd think it's true in the data and i'll tell you i'll tell you why is okay is that

01:13:01.200 doctors tell you that you can't have more than c-sec more than they do and that's that is a big

01:13:06.520 problem which is something that they shouldn't say but they do and i know that you've simone i think

01:13:11.000 you've had four right yeah i've had four and my my surgeon who's done two of those four

01:13:15.400 the most she's ever done on someone is seven and she says basically there's no correlation between

01:13:20.460 the number of c-sections you've had and problems it's all about specifically your unique biology

01:13:25.240 there's some women who like they know like one c-section never again and there are other women

01:13:30.580 who it's like keep that's a wonderful point which is that it is possible to have a lot more

01:13:34.280 but but the messaging that doctors give overwhelmingly yeah it's like well of course you're never going to

01:13:41.320 have like two or three only so there is like and country like south korea has a rate of c-sections like

01:13:49.300 like 60 percent or 55 and this is not necessary and combine that with the the kind of the message

01:13:58.920 that the c-sections limit fertility and then what you end up with is that there's a a very strong

01:14:05.840 negative relationship between the c-section rate you know what you know what what oecd country

01:14:10.920 has the lowest rate of c-sections oh france no there's one oecd country with the highest

01:14:19.260 fertility israel yeah oh wow so that makes sense so israel kind of intentionally avoids on you know

01:14:29.560 unmedically necessary c-sections i'm a big fan of c-sections that are medically necessary but

01:14:35.260 the other thing is that there's a lot of miscommunication around i agree with that yeah

01:14:39.040 which which you know you know i was very moved simone when you you said i think you i think you

01:14:44.640 told uh pierce morgan right you said i'm gonna how many children are you gonna have you said it until

01:14:50.540 they they forcibly removed my uterus in a botched surgery yes i like i don't know if i if my eyes got

01:14:59.040 wet when i heard that because like that's that's a really moving statement actually i think you're a

01:15:03.400 you're a lucky guy malcolm i mean well i think you know like there's and this is actually an added

01:15:08.420 again it's culture malcolm's gonna say but you know back in the day the rate at which women died

01:15:15.540 in childbirth was similar to the rate at which men died in in war and i think yeah there's there's this

01:15:21.580 you know like the way that women you know reach the hull of the valhalla is by dying in childbirth

01:15:27.240 like it's the it's the honorable way to go in many ways and and they were willing to go that way

01:15:31.460 they were willing to undergo the risk in many cases they still wanted kids despite the risk

01:15:36.060 because there was glory in it it meant you were serving your country you were serving your family

01:15:41.280 you were defending what you believed in and i i very much believe in bringing that back and of

01:15:46.520 course i think a lot of the the the fears that young women have around things like pregnancy

01:15:51.360 and the related risks one they're super overblown and and it's actually a lot more nuanced in terms

01:15:56.880 of like is it bad for you is it good for you does it hurt you like is it actually dangerous there's a

01:16:01.120 lot of nuance there but also the the the values are all wrong like it even if it was really dangerous

01:16:08.260 and i i question that like there's we're gonna have another episode where we go over this more

01:16:12.860 i think women should be like well yeah like this is if you're gonna go you should go doing this

01:16:19.120 you know like why do you really want to die like after like four crappy months on hospice care

01:16:25.140 or you don't have to die at all and actually actually this is something that the rate the risk

01:16:29.680 and this is a big victory of civilization is that is that the the risk of actual death and childbirth

01:16:35.860 is very very very yeah it is very extremely low i mean even if you're even if you're on your

01:16:40.380 seventh c-section or whatever which i hope you get to yeah well although i'm when you know when you

01:16:44.420 read hannah's children there are many there are at least like two or three examples of women who

01:16:48.680 who did have to stop having children or chose to stop having children because their doctors are

01:16:54.360 like lady you're gonna get a heart attack if you do this again like you literally like from a health

01:16:58.300 standpoint cannot keep having children knock it off lady what i will say is um having having a child

01:17:07.740 should be seen more like in terms of the risks is similar to like being into running marathons

01:17:14.060 you could really screw up your body getting really into like iron man competitions and you can really

01:17:20.120 screw up your body really getting into pregnancy but like these are things that like they're hills

01:17:25.560 worth dying on and again it comes back to culture well yeah i mean the the question is you know i i think

01:17:31.980 when i talk again about the fertility stack i think you know if you want to have higher fertility

01:17:38.700 rates across society i think you have to have you also have to have something you know things that

01:17:45.900 make a difference with with the normies if you will because i actually disagree with this i think that

01:17:51.820 thinking of fertility rates is something to raise at a societal level is fundamentally misguided and will

01:17:58.520 not work you need to think about how to raise fertility rates at the level of individual families

01:18:03.560 and then at the size no we're coming back to egypt and iran we need grassroots right and then at the

01:18:09.540 societal level convince them it's worth doing and investing in all society needs to do like in terms

01:18:16.240 of like actually fixing this is make people feel like they are living unworthy lives or humiliated for

01:18:23.020 not having lots of kids like one of the things that we've been promoting recently on the channel is

01:18:27.240 if you are a man and you have three kids fewer than three kids you are a cuck you're being cucked by

01:18:36.220 every man if you're paying taxes you're being cucked because other men are replacing your genes in the nest

01:18:43.240 you are contributing to the next generation and those kids are eating your your genetic lines lunch and

01:18:49.340 when you build mindsets like this like oh my god i don't want to be cucked but there's also alternates so

01:18:56.360 one of the things that we offer was like our hard ea 501c3 foundation is if you are just in a life

01:19:02.520 situation or you can't have kids or whatever right you can donate to us and we will keep your genome on

01:19:08.820 file for whatever civilization we end up creating well yeah i mean so so yeah i yeah what one more

01:19:16.040 element of the of the fertility stack if you will which which which again wraps around to culture and

01:19:20.540 you know is you know having a culture of large families i mean one thing that happened

01:19:25.620 you know in in modern times is that we had this norm of two children and if you have a norm of two

01:19:32.700 children you're going to have you know in a modern society it looks like you're going to have about

01:19:38.120 one-third of the population is going to have no kids typically just just because people you know

01:19:43.740 some guys never can get a good job some some women just don't want to have kids some people never seem

01:19:50.520 to get their life together you know some women just don't want to date men that are that just are at

01:19:56.340 the bottom of the of the social rung and so forth so you're going to have this is why we need this is

01:20:02.040 why we need harems i should have four wives where are my sister wives okay anyway continue so what what

01:20:09.440 what so what you what you really need is a norm of many of larger families like you you would you

01:20:14.820 need if one-third are not going to have children then you have to have a norm of three children per

01:20:21.120 family among everybody else to get to replacement so you you just need to to have a higher set point

01:20:29.200 if you will and this this is one reason why i think which why i really love large families and you

01:20:34.580 know people like katherine pakolic with with a very very large family is is that you kind of

01:20:40.180 you know set the the the family size over to the window if you will so if you can open that up

01:20:48.580 you know if if she has what i say six you know 14 children then then me with six children is not weird

01:20:58.460 suddenly it feels like yeah like oh no i'm very conservative here you don't feel like a freak and i i will

01:21:03.720 say that i went into her book thinking all right i'm aiming for eight i'm aiming for eight and then

01:21:08.380 i came out of her book and i'm like i'm aiming for 12 to 14 i can do this come on we can do 12 to 14

01:21:14.800 we can do it this is 100 dependent on my uterus but like it definitely just knowing i think a big

01:21:21.900 thing and i was looking at different stat actually um today that was it it found that a parent receiving

01:21:29.580 welfare non-trivial increase the odds of a child taking using government services and welfare as

01:21:36.120 well like basically we read three times more likely three times yeah so we're way more likely

01:21:40.660 to do stuff if we're exposed to it if we see it if you come from a family with with a lot of kids

01:21:46.160 you're more likely to be like yeah this is normal you know or a family you know this is a big thing

01:21:51.160 with our school that that we're developing over time is we really want to expose our children

01:21:56.420 and other children within our culture and our cultural network to very high achieving families

01:22:02.400 and parents and you know with careers and influence and you know that are doing things that are exciting

01:22:07.520 because we want kids to normalize oh i could be a thought leader i could be you know building rocket

01:22:13.160 ships i could be you know changing germline genetizing for you know generations to come like

01:22:19.420 we want children to normalize to that because really that's all it takes and you're absolutely right

01:22:23.780 like if we normalize big families people will be like yeah okay like this is doable yeah it's amazing

01:22:30.540 just for me because i don't get a lot of exposure to large families to people who have like five plus

01:22:35.720 children and the few friends i do have who have a lot of children don't talk with me that much because

01:22:40.220 they're kind of busy you know we don't live right next to each other so just reading a book where i'm

01:22:45.880 hearing interviews of these people if it was able to have that much of an influence on me

01:22:49.520 like just imagine what a little bit more in our culture could do yeah i i i do think you know

01:22:56.680 but that that's the that's the 100 trillion dollar question which is the size of the global economy like

01:23:04.240 you know building a a broader culture you know we we can have subcultures that survive but the question

01:23:10.720 is can you can you have you have to you have to build a culture of building subcultures

01:23:16.500 yeah we'll we'll see we'll see we'll see i i don't anyway all right great to have you on

01:23:23.580 great to have you on great to talk wonderful wonderful the minds did i convince you at all

01:23:28.940 it makes sense to think about this as primarily a cultural issue

01:23:33.260 it is i i do i have emphasized that culture is incredibly important but i i would also

01:23:41.540 say that no but culture fixes housing easier than you can fix housing

01:23:47.480 well i i would say you know even in in vienna in 1920 fertility was 0.6 so vienna in 1920 was sold in

01:24:01.380 you know and this was before the pill this was before you know modern birth oh yeah i mean cities

01:24:06.320 well no ancient ancient rome was like this cities have been fertility shredders for as long as there

01:24:10.940 have been cities that's always i do think i do think that culture it doesn't exist on an island i mean

01:24:16.940 you know you you talk about the urban monoculture and that that literally is a reflection of the fact

01:24:24.320 that there's a culture that that's particularly pervasive in cities that is antagonistic evil

01:24:31.220 culture that will hunt you down and erase you but you know i i do think that you know where where

01:24:39.100 people live can can shape culture as well i don't think the amish could be the amish

01:24:42.740 if if they didn't have you know the rural living that they have no no no i push back

01:24:49.040 her righty jews are all over manhattan

01:24:51.020 well but well the amish in the her radio are extremely no that's true like yeah but the amish

01:25:00.740 have chosen a bad culture

01:25:02.000 we'll see we'll see they may they may they may replace they may be the one that who you know

01:25:11.700 robin hansen you know thinks that they're they're going to be you know one of the winners of oh he's

01:25:17.700 super wrong so the okay so just aside here so we often talk about the pax de romana of the urban

01:25:23.040 monoculture pax de romana is the peace of rome it meant that there were a bunch of people who would

01:25:27.780 have otherwise killed each other but were at peace because they were under the roman empire

01:25:30.860 the amish are living under the pax de romana of the urban monoculture because they are extremist

01:25:37.320 pacifists as soon as the urban monoculture falls groups that are like i don't even say my

01:25:43.420 cultural groups like if one of my kids was like he was struggling and starving and his kids were

01:25:48.740 at risk and he's like yeah but those amish have some nice land over there he's gonna go take it

01:25:54.160 with his gun drones or even an ar-15 it's easy like i i guess what i'm saying is is it the amish

01:26:01.360 pacifism as long as that's in place the amish are basically a negligible factor in long-term human

01:26:08.760 civilization we'll see i as i say i i try to i i try to focus maybe ai will protect them maybe ai will

01:26:18.760 protect them wouldn't that be funny if ai is the reason people don't just kill the amish and take

01:26:22.560 one thing about the amish is that they're not they're they're not anti-technological

01:26:28.340 just on a they don't believe that technology is evil and it's sinful necessarily they actually

01:26:35.920 that that what they believe about technology is they're they're very selective in anything that

01:26:40.700 they think is going to like mess up their family culture they they you know because i i had an

01:26:45.980 interesting you know i was in pennsylvania in in october probably not not not very far from where

01:26:51.660 you guys live in amish country and you know there was a couple young guys and they were there

01:26:57.220 in a sheets use you know pennsylvania is full of sheets they were they were there using the atm you know

01:27:04.680 taking turns you know getting all their cash out and i was like wait a minute i thought amish

01:27:09.460 don't use tech but actually they do use technology they have no problem with it they just they just

01:27:14.180 pick their technology that that they think won't change their culture so they may not use cell phones

01:27:18.840 but they have no problem using atms for example so i i think that i think that who knows probably the

01:27:26.460 amish isn't their lack of technology it's their pacifism

01:27:29.100 that's what makes them so vulnerable but me we'll see i you know as the old chinese proverb

01:27:37.160 goes we shall see right yeah we shall all right have a good one guys simone what are we doing for

01:27:42.300 dinner tonight either tomato soup and grilled cheese or teriyaki chicken with lime rice because we

01:27:49.840 haven't thought out more steak for you but before we go everyone go to x.com backslash more births

01:27:58.920 because this is and promote the pernatals

01:28:01.880 promote the conferences in the pernatals episode yes yes so yeah okay go ahead sorry go oh dan by the

01:28:09.920 way are you going to be there yes i'm going to be i'm going to be one of the speakers

01:28:12.980 okay so join us and more births at the natalism con in march in austin and you can get a 10 discount

01:28:22.500 if you sign up we're calling so do it because you should save your money for kids right right and i

01:28:31.180 again follow me at more births more births i i write as much as i can about all you know all sorts of

01:28:38.680 factors driving fertility including culture and by the way the pernatalist conference so expensive

01:28:45.340 i'd point out that last year kevin dolan ended up eating cost on the conference right like you can

01:28:51.180 complain about the conference being expensive but venues are expensive right like the conference does

01:28:55.980 not make money so keep that in mind if that is your concern right all right well dan thank you so much

01:29:05.160 thank you so much and i am already looking forward to our next conversation and lots of love to you

01:29:09.960 and the family okay good luck to everyone good to good to see baby industry there all right

01:29:15.380 she's rebelling now but that's okay she'll get dinner next good

01:29:20.000 you

Pronatalist Debate： Culture vs. Housing with @MoreBirths

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