Based Camp - August 24, 2023


Reproductive Futures for the Men's Rights Movement

Topics
genomic prediction embryos height selection gender pay gap argument
Hosted by
Malcolm Collins Simone Collins
Mentioned
Simone Malcolm Sandman Bitcoin Calvin
Are We Monogamous？ An Insider's Take on Brain-Computer Interface (BCI)

Episode Stats


Length

29 minutes

Words per minute

195.55

Word count

5,715

Sentence count

431

Harmful content

Misogyny

41

sentences flagged

Toxicity

17

sentences flagged

Hate speech

50

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we are joined by MGTOW founder, Sandman, to discuss his journey to becoming a single father. Sandman and Simone discuss the benefits and drawbacks of being a single parent vs. being in a relationship with a partner, and how technology can be a game changer in the reproductive strategy.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 A lot of guys are also looking for, they want lover bots or sex bots because they're trying
00:00:05.780 to compartmentalize every aspect of what you would get from a woman and take technology 1.00
00:00:12.140 and replace everything.
00:00:14.180 And this is something that a lot of women that I've spoken to, they get really uppity 1.00
00:00:18.760 because it creates obsolescence, right?
00:00:22.220 Why would they choose a real life woman versus using the technology? 0.99
00:00:28.700 Yeah.
00:00:28.980 And I do, I thought that's one of my favorite arguments that I see, like within MGTOW, 0.83
00:00:34.600 just, hey, listen, when you look at the difference between a suboptimal relationship with a spouse,
00:00:40.760 where you're paying a lot extra for everything versus like getting everything piecemeal,
00:00:45.840 it really is crazy that people would choose to have a suboptimal relationship with a spouse
00:00:49.840 to do all this.
00:00:50.600 Would you like to know more?
00:00:51.800 Hello.
00:00:52.600 It is so wonderful to be here with you today, Simone.
00:00:55.820 We have a wonderful guest today.
00:00:58.100 So actually, before he reached out to us, he was on an email list for us to reach out
00:01:03.340 to, because we were interested in reaching out to the people in the MGTOW community.
00:01:06.260 And I was like, okay, so who are the top MGTOW people these days? 0.75
00:01:08.620 And I looked and the first name was Sandman, who they called the Mount Rushmore of the MGTOW
00:01:14.440 community.
00:01:14.840 And so I was like, wow, he's already reached.
00:01:18.600 That's amazing.
00:01:19.500 I do travel in similar circles.
00:01:21.460 So for people who aren't familiar with the MGTOW community, this stands for men going their 0.84
00:01:26.440 own way, which is a cultural response to the raw deal many men feel they're getting in society
00:01:34.020 today.
00:01:34.340 And you can correct me if I said anything wrong there.
00:01:36.260 But what is our topic today, Simone?
00:01:37.920 We are going to talk about something way beyond the basics of MGTOW, which is reproductive
00:01:44.800 strategy.
00:01:45.600 Because just because you may be opting out of traditional relationships with women doesn't
00:01:50.700 mean that you don't want to have kids.
00:01:52.940 And it doesn't mean that you don't want your cultural group to survive into the future.
00:01:55.860 Exactly.
00:01:56.640 So what do?
00:01:58.020 How can we use technology and different strategies?
00:02:00.700 How can we make MGTOW an intergenerationally durable cultural group?
00:02:04.700 Mm-hmm.
00:02:06.180 Okay.
00:02:06.960 So the first thing, when I started my channel back in end of 2013, the first thing that came
00:02:12.460 to mind was I don't want to get married, but I still want to have children.
00:02:16.020 So how am I going to pull this off?
00:02:17.720 And the first thing I looked at was gestational surrogacy.
00:02:21.380 And you can go and buy eggs for $5,000, $6,000 on the open market.
00:02:26.720 And then you can go and pay for a surrogate in another country.
00:02:30.280 And then you can reproduce and you can have all the children you want. 0.77
00:02:33.160 And so when I put that video out, I got a good response, but a lot of women were very 1.00
00:02:38.160 upset because they said, you're depriving the children of a mother.
00:02:42.020 They said, yes, this is the argument that was being thrown around.
00:02:45.800 It's not fair for you to deprive the child.
00:02:48.940 And I'm thinking to myself, but what about all the single mothers out there that are 1.00
00:02:51.760 depriving their children of fathers?
00:02:53.600 Just to add to this, because the audience might not be familiar with this statistic, is
00:02:56.700 that there's been a lot of studies on this.
00:02:58.300 And while coming from a single mother household has a lot of negative implications on children 0.99
00:03:03.580 long-term, single father households actually don't have that many negative implications.
00:03:08.540 Sick birth to the mothers. 1.00
00:03:10.100 There's alternative reasons why this might be the case.
00:03:12.640 It might be that typically because courts so disproportionately favor women, divorce courts 1.00
00:03:18.240 do, that really the only time that when people get a divorce or in the relationship
00:03:23.900 for some sort of bad reason, the kids are going to the mother, but if one of the parents
00:03:27.760 dies, then it's going to the father.
00:03:29.340 That could be what's causing this in the data.
00:03:31.100 But it is just a true thing in most of the data that being a single father has much better 1.00
00:03:35.840 implications than being a single mother.
00:03:37.280 Continue.
00:03:38.280 So about five or 10 different guys over the years have contacted me and they've told me
00:03:42.700 that they've tried gestational surrogacy either in Ukraine or in Africa or in Mexico.
00:03:47.980 When I first saw what was going on, I thought, okay, I'm going to do India because India 0.76
00:03:51.320 seemed to be the most cost effective at the time you could get for $12,000 roughly.
00:03:56.360 You could basically have a child.
00:03:57.400 Yeah.
00:03:57.540 You're looking at the cost is very low, but it's not just that it's also to do with genetic
00:04:03.420 selection.
00:04:04.280 I know you guys are very involved in genetic selection.
00:04:06.480 When you go through, you can pick through all the different surrogates.
00:04:09.700 So if you're a five foot five short man lit, you're not going to get many women to date
00:04:14.620 you and have reproduce reproduction with you. 0.99
00:04:17.100 So what you want to do is you want to go and find someone that's five foot nine, five foot
00:04:21.160 10, six feet tall, blonde hair, blue eyes.
00:04:26.340 And then you can basically up the value of your children and get them higher in the sexual
00:04:31.660 marketplace that way.
00:04:32.860 Exactly.
00:04:33.560 Yeah.
00:04:33.940 Yeah.
00:04:34.220 But you could really spam that using...
00:04:36.540 Collegiate and gross course selection.
00:04:38.140 Yeah.
00:04:38.580 So you can use...
00:04:39.400 You want to talk about the cost of that, Simone?
00:04:41.080 Just so...
00:04:42.000 Yeah.
00:04:42.400 First, if we're talking about the cost of surrogacy, it's typically well over $100,000 in the United
00:04:47.900 States.
00:04:48.360 But what I'm asking is what would be the marginal cost if he was able to do this in India to
00:04:52.640 do the polygenic risk score selection?
00:04:54.280 It's non-trivial now, and hopefully it will be a lot less expensive in the future.
00:04:58.760 So right now, I think genomic prediction, which is the gold standard of like your typical
00:05:03.840 getting it started, polygenic risk score selection, I think is around like $400 per embryo
00:05:09.120 with a sort of minimum fee.
00:05:10.860 But that would allow you to look at things like height for every one of those embryos.
00:05:14.780 No, not exactly.
00:05:16.080 They don't tell you that?
00:05:16.980 They don't tell you height.
00:05:18.340 Genomic prediction only tells you a series of politically correct health scores.
00:05:22.680 So you need to export the data and send it to other people.
00:05:25.400 Yeah.
00:05:25.420 So you need to export it and then upload it to other platforms.
00:05:28.440 Self-decode being one that's more affordable and also like publicly open about, yes, we'll
00:05:32.920 accept genomic prediction exports.
00:05:35.100 Yes, we have a variety of scores.
00:05:36.980 I don't know if currently they have one for height though.
00:05:39.740 So there are other groups that do.
00:05:41.060 Yeah.
00:05:41.360 Yeah, it's just, it is not cheap.
00:05:45.320 Okay.
00:05:45.780 But India banned, banned everything about, I think it was about 10 or 11 years ago.
00:05:49.780 So just as I was looking at, yes, they did.
00:05:52.600 So it was banned for foreigners and was banned for single individuals.
00:05:56.340 So they, yeah, they're, the discrimination is getting pretty crazy.
00:06:00.240 You can look at places like Mexico.
00:06:01.780 A lot of people are doing Africa now.
00:06:03.940 So that seems to be Ukraine was always a possibility for a while, obviously not anymore right now.
00:06:09.860 So that was what was going on.
00:06:12.280 And then over time, I thought to myself, this is a good reproductive strategy, but I came 0.99
00:06:18.580 upon some health issues.
00:06:19.560 So I decided, okay, that's not going to really work for me.
00:06:22.140 So what could, what else, what other health strategies, what other reproductive strategies
00:06:25.760 could I implement?
00:06:26.340 And so I look at Elon Musk and I look at his reproductive strategy as what I would like
00:06:32.400 to call spray and pray, right?
00:06:35.180 So he's just going out there and reproducing with as many women as he can.
00:06:39.500 I think he's up to 11, 12, 13 children right now.
00:06:42.780 And, but he's, he doesn't have the, he does not implementing a cultural strategy.
00:06:48.080 And this is something that Malcolm brought up.
00:06:50.360 It's not, it's one thing to pass your genes down to the next generation, but how do you ensure
00:06:54.640 three, four or five generations down the road?
00:06:57.700 And, and that's something that I didn't really think about.
00:07:00.260 And so my, my idea was when I get older, when I'm Sam in my sixties or seventies, I pay for
00:07:05.820 a bunch of surrogates. 0.83
00:07:07.140 I have 10 different children.
00:07:08.640 I put them up for adoption with different, different people who have, there's financially
00:07:14.100 successful and I can put them up in different parts of the world, which increases the possibility
00:07:18.280 of survival in case there's like a thermonuclear war or something ridiculous.
00:07:21.620 Right.
00:07:22.580 So that was the strategy.
00:07:24.520 So now I'm thinking that's not going to work.
00:07:26.440 So now I'm looking at other strategies, which if in the next few years, if I get my autoimmune
00:07:33.320 issues under control and Bitcoin does what it's supposed to, then I'm thinking probably
00:07:37.660 within five, six years, I might implement the surrogacy strategy.
00:07:42.900 So that's where I'm at right now.
00:07:45.240 Yeah.
00:07:45.880 What I would say is it doesn't even matter how many kids you immediately have.
00:07:49.680 If you're thinking about the long-term impact culturally, whatever that you would have through
00:07:54.440 children, it doesn't matter how many kids you have.
00:07:56.860 It matters how many grandkids you have and how many kids they have in turn.
00:08:00.240 So like someone could have 10 kids, someone could have 30 kids.
00:08:04.180 And if those kids all hate you and either don't have kids at all, or don't pass on anything
00:08:08.700 related to you.
00:08:09.520 And like, you might as well have done nothing.
00:08:11.160 So we've also got to keep in mind that MGTOW cultural strategies are going to become more 0.94
00:08:14.680 viable in the future.
00:08:15.660 Artificial loom technology is getting nearer and nearer to viable.
00:08:19.700 And that could make having kids without a partner very inexpensive.
00:08:24.560 It could even make, yeah, different types of genetic recombination possible.
00:08:29.760 But as you guys know, it's not just the cost of reproduction.
00:08:32.300 It's the cost of daycare and all the other stuff.
00:08:34.820 It's probably way more in the end.
00:08:36.640 Like what a lot of people have been thinking about in terms of reproduction for MGTOW is there's
00:08:42.020 the holy, there's a few holy grail technologies that will allow these things to happen.
00:08:46.320 So one of those is artificial wombs. 1.00
00:08:47.940 But a lot of guys are also looking for, they want lover bots or sex bots because they're
00:08:54.300 trying to, you're trying to compartmentalize every aspect of what you would get from a
00:08:59.360 woman and take technology and replace everything. 1.00
00:09:02.940 And this is something that a lot of women that I've spoken to, they get really uppity because 1.00
00:09:08.000 it's, it makes, it creates obsolescence, right?
00:09:10.960 In certain ways, and all of a sudden it limits their ability to mate select, because if all
00:09:16.180 of a sudden you have 70, 80, 90% of the male population, they can gain access to these
00:09:22.080 technologies, then why would they choose a real life woman versus using the technology? 0.99
00:09:29.720 Yeah.
00:09:30.400 And I do, I thought that's one of my favorite arguments that I see like within MGTOW, just, 0.97
00:09:35.920 hey, listen, when you look at the difference between the suboptimal relationship with a
00:09:41.200 spouse, where you're paying a lot extra for everything versus like getting everything
00:09:46.320 piecemeal, it really is crazy that people would choose to have a suboptimal relationship
00:09:50.520 with the spouse to do all this.
00:09:51.640 So like, it's exciting.
00:09:53.700 And yes, with IVG in the future, and who knows like how far, Malcolm, what's your estimate on
00:09:58.700 like where we will be with artificial wombs? 1.00
00:10:00.680 I think our kids will almost certainly 99% probability have access to them when they
00:10:06.200 decide to have kids.
00:10:07.200 What about people today watching this?
00:10:09.020 You just, I don't know, 10 years, could be 20 years.
00:10:12.560 It's difficult to say exactly.
00:10:14.480 And the problem is that a lot of this stuff has to be done in secret because the public
00:10:17.720 mores are so against it right now.
00:10:19.520 And I think that that's a really interesting thing that's talked about a lot in the MGTOW
00:10:22.460 community, which I don't think the general public is as aware of.
00:10:25.740 So I want to talk about this subject a little, the way that feminist groups really freak out
00:10:32.200 about stuff like sex bots in a way that like, okay, obviously, so the perception often within
00:10:39.560 the MGTOW community around this is they cognizantly understand how this lowers their power on sexual
00:10:44.580 marketplaces.
00:10:45.420 And that's why they're reacting this way.
00:10:47.820 But I don't feel like they're thinking about it.
00:10:50.440 Like, does it even lower their power?
00:10:53.480 Like, definitely lowers their power.
00:10:54.680 They feel like it lowers their power versus anything.
00:10:57.520 So for example, I was, okay, so I've been working on my own version of a, I wouldn't
00:11:03.320 call it a sex bot.
00:11:04.680 I would call it more like a virtual sex system. 0.96
00:11:07.720 The way it works is it projects a real life woman into the sex doll so that you interact 0.54
00:11:15.020 with the real woman and you're stimulating the technology, but there's this technology on
00:11:19.960 the other end that's stimulating her. 0.66
00:11:21.560 So you're actually able to have sex. 0.74
00:11:24.000 We're digitizing everything.
00:11:25.200 We're digitizing.
00:11:26.100 Teletildonics is what this field is called, by the way.
00:11:28.480 Wait, is that an actual word?
00:11:30.360 Yeah.
00:11:30.540 I looked into it for a while.
00:11:31.940 I thought there were some interesting opportunities in the field.
00:11:34.600 Why not just an AI though?
00:11:36.000 Like why involve a woman at all? 0.99
00:11:37.900 Okay.
00:11:38.100 So when I first introduced the technology to a couple of women, they got very hostile.
00:11:42.420 So my instinct, my, for my white knighting instinct was activated.
00:11:46.220 And I thought like, how could I make this woman feel more comfortable about what I was
00:11:49.860 saying?
00:11:50.500 And I, my subconscious just said, well, I'm not going to just replace women with an AI.
00:11:55.320 I'm going to, I'm going to allow you to interact with the man through the technology.
00:11:59.340 And all of a sudden the mood and the hostility just disappeared because all of a sudden the
00:12:05.820 hamster in her head started running and the hamster figured out, okay, if I can use this
00:12:10.900 technology, then I can have a new way to exploit the simpish population over the internet. 1.00
00:12:15.820 It's the next OnlyFans.
00:12:17.640 Yes.
00:12:18.220 Because with the way the technology, like the way I've developed the technology, like I've
00:12:22.280 got, like I can show you guys crude pieces of prototypes.
00:12:26.000 The first thing is it uses a sex doll, right? 0.96
00:12:28.660 So the sex doll, but you take the head, the sex doll heads are like removable. 0.98
00:12:32.620 So you can unscrew the sex doll head. 0.84
00:12:34.460 Then what you do is you put a plastic see-through transparent plastic head on there.
00:12:39.680 And then you put an ultra short throw projector on the back.
00:12:42.160 So it projects the person out. 0.70
00:12:46.420 And then the dolls have a vaginal insert. 1.00
00:12:49.420 So you take the vaginal insert out and you put one in with sensors. 0.86
00:12:53.280 So that literally picks up all your thrusts.
00:12:56.140 And so digitizes your thrusts.
00:12:57.460 She can see you through the, through the face and she can interact with you.
00:13:01.580 And then on her end, there's technology that's capturing her face in real time.
00:13:05.600 And there's also the teledildonics that are thrusting in and out.
00:13:08.840 You know, you can use all kinds of different technologies.
00:13:10.480 I'm sorry.
00:13:11.100 I'm like so seven years old.
00:13:12.560 This is so funny.
00:13:13.580 Teledildonics.
00:13:13.980 I just, I don't know.
00:13:15.300 I feel like I would, as a guy, as a girl, I would prefer like my waifu slash husband 0.93
00:13:21.820 though to do this.
00:13:22.700 That's like not a human.
00:13:23.960 You're like a complete guy.
00:13:25.360 So one thing he said that I thought was really interesting that I think is interesting is
00:13:30.320 the economics of this.
00:13:31.320 So look at current ways that women can, I don't know, what do you want to say, exploit or whatever, 1.00
00:13:36.700 get money from men on the internet.
00:13:38.600 They are typically one to many approaches, which mean that the very best women just completely 1.00
00:13:45.460 mop up. 0.76
00:13:46.280 This is whether it's OnlyFans or sex chatting websites or something like that.
00:13:51.300 What makes this technology unique is that it monopolizes a woman's time with one guy 0.99
00:13:56.760 for a longer period of time.
00:13:58.340 So it's actually much more democratizing of women's ability to make money in online environments, 1.00
00:14:06.100 which in many ways, yeah, that's interesting.
00:14:09.660 This is so not where I thought the conversation was going to go, Sandman, when you mentioned
00:14:13.820 I want to figure out how to also replace the elements of a female presence in the home. 1.00
00:14:17.980 I'm picturing Mother from the Umbrella Academy, which I'm not sure if you've watched that
00:14:22.320 show, but they're just like, yeah, this robotic 1950s trad wife woman. 1.00
00:14:27.240 In terms of replacing, there's technologies like they're creating robot shops and you can,
00:14:31.780 I've got like a vacuum that kind of just does its own thing and all that kind of stuff.
00:14:35.320 Those are just appliances that kind of do that.
00:14:38.020 But to have a, you have to think about this technology.
00:14:40.500 We can't get to the full Android within the next 50, 100, like it's going to take a long
00:14:45.640 time.
00:14:46.060 So you have to look at all the intermediate steps between like full Android and where
00:14:50.720 we are today and how you, and you have to push the technology forward.
00:14:55.040 You have to start working on those intermediate steps and making them good, right?
00:14:59.800 So the, so, because if you create, if I create my virtual sex system, then people will see
00:15:04.900 the possibility and they'll start adding more things to it, right?
00:15:07.980 So all of a sudden there'll be sensors built into the doll so you can touch it.
00:15:11.680 And there's all, there's already cloth that women can wear that'll actually transmit like 1.00
00:15:16.840 the feel of somebody else from a, from a distance.
00:15:20.660 So this is something that's really interesting.
00:15:23.720 So I'm thinking, you know, when you were talking about the mother system, okay, let's
00:15:27.840 talk 50, 100 years in the future, right?
00:15:29.720 You would be able to easily likely have an AI that is shared between both your sexual release
00:15:37.240 mechanisms and the mothering figure in the household, right? 0.98
00:15:40.280 So it's the same personality to many extents, but like different aspects of it for different
00:15:44.440 environments.
00:15:45.300 So you can have the best of all worlds.
00:15:47.040 But once you do that and women could do something similar. 1.00
00:15:49.980 And once you don't need somebody of the opposite gender to have a kid or opposite sex is more 1.00
00:15:55.460 politically correct to say, I don't know which one's more politically correct these
00:15:57.920 days.
00:15:58.500 Once you don't need someone of the opposite sex to have a kid that then how many people 1.00
00:16:04.120 we're talking about the percentage of durable cultural groups that survive, how many of them
00:16:08.860 will actually keep up this male female dynamic versus how many of them will be just totally 0.99
00:16:14.500 male cultures with simulated female partners and totally female cultures with simulated
00:16:21.400 male partners.
00:16:22.620 We also have to think about the advantage of having a society where it's 90, 90 plus percent 0.62
00:16:27.780 males versus more females, because the males are going to pay more tax.
00:16:32.380 The males are going to work more. 0.71
00:16:33.700 But again, AI could make all of that irrelevant.
00:16:36.200 So we don't know.
00:16:37.000 There's so many unknowns at this point, but I'm definitely thinking in terms of, so let's
00:16:42.700 say you got, you take 90% males and say they choose to reproduce.
00:16:46.540 We don't know if people are, would even reproduce if you gave them these options.
00:16:49.860 Like we're getting to this point where society is atomizing so much that I don't know, like
00:16:56.360 we're looking for solutions.
00:16:58.620 It's almost like you have to cater to people's narcissism.
00:17:01.320 And that's another one of the things I was going to bring up in terms of reproduction.
00:17:04.340 There's a show I mentioned to Malcolm called Foundation.
00:17:07.780 Yes.
00:17:08.980 And there's the Cleon dynasty, genetic dynasty.
00:17:11.960 And every single version of Cleon is a clone.
00:17:15.120 So if you create like a lineage where you're passing your clone down, you're going from
00:17:20.200 one generation to the next, then it, what your aptitudes are, what your strengths and
00:17:24.460 weaknesses are.
00:17:25.280 So you can, you're more likely to guide the clone forward.
00:17:28.500 And also a clone would be technically your brother and you would be the father at the
00:17:32.640 same time.
00:17:33.940 Because go ahead.
00:17:35.400 Yeah.
00:17:35.840 You know what I liked about this and we talked about this and we're talking about on the
00:17:38.100 call is it would allow for culture to become a lot weirder and a lot more specialized right
00:17:42.980 now.
00:17:43.260 We talk about to how some extent cultures co-evolve with different groups, right?
00:17:48.420 Because each the culture is putting a pressure on the genetics and the genetics is putting 0.94
00:17:52.800 a pressure on the culture.
00:17:53.500 But if you had a pure breeding, like that means that you have the same genetics within each
00:17:58.900 generation, it's what you talk about in mice or something like that, like bread pure.
00:18:03.000 It doesn't mean like pure as in like ethnically.
00:18:05.360 Anyway, if you have a pure breeding, like same genes, every generation, individual, and then
00:18:11.100 a culture that's adapting itself within that group, I think it would become pretty radically
00:18:15.460 different than anything we see in society today to the point that you were making because
00:18:19.800 you could know exactly, not just what strengths and weaknesses your kid is going to have,
00:18:24.300 but what strengths and weaknesses your great grandkid is going to have.
00:18:27.060 Which changes a lot.
00:18:28.340 Also, if you don't need to prime somebody to look for a partner, that changes a lot of how
00:18:32.620 they structure their lives, for example.
00:18:35.860 How do you think, so let's say that there is like this isolated male society where it's
00:18:40.880 really just men.
00:18:41.500 How do you think culture would be different, especially when like women are no longer a point 1.00
00:18:46.200 of stress or strife?
00:18:48.060 I've, I've crawled over, I've gone through most of the old West.
00:18:51.440 I've gone through all ghost towns and I've seen, you get.
00:18:54.420 Yeah, that was that world, right?
00:18:55.780 Yeah.
00:18:55.980 Because you get 80, 90% males and you get 10%, 15% females. 0.83
00:19:01.060 Yeah.
00:19:01.680 It's really interesting because the jobs for women are usually prostitute and barmaid and 1.00
00:19:07.340 it's limited.
00:19:08.260 They're not really part of society. 0.96
00:19:09.360 They really almost are more like sex dolls in that world, right? 0.76
00:19:12.980 Because they're not even really just citizens. 0.75
00:19:15.020 They're there to provide a service, right?
00:19:17.000 Yeah, exactly.
00:19:17.520 And there's this one town called Castle Dome and it's in Arizona, just outside of Yuma. 0.91
00:19:21.840 And when I went down there, there's this bathtub that these prostitutes would haul from town 1.00
00:19:26.720 to bathe the Johns because they didn't want to, they wanted to make sure they were clean, 0.92
00:19:31.360 as clean as possible.
00:19:32.420 Yeah.
00:19:32.660 So you're seeing, you're going to see if you have a mostly male society, like I said, it
00:19:38.760 would out-compete societies that were more 50-50 or societies that had more females in 0.96
00:19:43.740 them simply because males spend more time working and paying taxes.
00:19:48.640 So I know there's a New Zealand study that shows that men pay $150,000 more in their lifetimes to tax in New Zealand than they actually take out.
00:19:58.720 So it's, so yeah.
00:19:59.900 And to be clear, he's saying that they would out-compete economically speaking.
00:20:03.260 They likely in current scenarios wouldn't out-compete in terms of fertility rates, but new technology could unlock that.
00:20:08.940 And if people are wondering, to Simone's question, what does an all-male versus all-female society look like?
00:20:13.660 A fun, now keep in mind, this has some staging to it and stuff like that.
00:20:17.440 But if you want to get a feel for the differences, there was a survivor season where they separated people into an all-male and all-female group.
00:20:24.500 Oh, was there really?
00:20:26.180 Yeah.
00:20:26.600 And they created very different intra-group cultures.
00:20:29.220 And I think the intra-group cultures they created, it explains to me why it is so prevalent among the friend groups I know to be like, of women, right?
00:20:38.220 We'll have kids.
00:20:39.300 We can have kids without men.
00:20:40.600 And then we'll create a group where it's all of us single moms working together to raise our kids. 0.99
00:20:44.600 And yet none of these groups has ever survived more than six months that I'm aware of.
00:20:48.860 And I think that episode shows why, not episode season or whatever.
00:20:52.320 I also think that an all-male society would be more highly disagreeable. 1.00
00:20:57.420 If you look at the Old West, it's obviously like there's shootings and there's lootings all over the place.
00:21:01.800 It has to do with just men not getting angry, getting on each other's nerves and figuring out ways to relieve the violence with, relieve the anger with violence.
00:21:09.580 So that's another thing.
00:21:10.680 One of my questions, though, is, isn't one of the reasons why, for example, men on average contribute more in tax dollars is because when they have children, their female partners are often participating in that in a way that doesn't show up in the modern economy, like uncompensated labor.
00:21:29.860 Because women, on average, just prefer to do that work, so they pick it up. 1.00
00:21:33.360 There must be some numbers that are off there, right?
00:21:35.660 It's the whole gender pay gap argument. 1.00
00:21:39.960 And the gender pay gap argument, women, they take more time off for raising the young, so that's going to affect their earnings potential down the road. 0.99
00:21:48.520 It's going to affect their earnings potential immediately.
00:21:51.360 Men also typically work more overtime hours.
00:21:55.580 So when a man is in love, he's more likely to put more effort into his family and put more effort into things.
00:22:01.660 I've seen this.
00:22:02.260 You've seen this.
00:22:02.800 We've all looked at that.
00:22:03.580 But my concern is that if men now are solely responsible for raising kids, like also theoretically, their contribution to GDP will take a hit.
00:22:12.460 Or at least their contribution to measured financial GDP will take a hit.
00:22:15.520 The other thing to keep in mind, Simone, is that if you look at low-skilled jobs that pay a lot, they are disproportionately male-held jobs.
00:22:24.640 You're looking at like high-danger jobs, high-etc.
00:22:28.060 But here's what I think we can forget about this.
00:22:31.600 If you had a society that was only men, would also have to sort into the low-skilled jobs that are disproportionately female today that are lower-paying, like teacher, etc. 0.93
00:22:43.480 Yeah.
00:22:43.800 Unless it's all automated.
00:22:45.000 Malcolm was bringing up the – it's the three Ds, dangerous, difficult, and dirty jobs.
00:22:49.780 Those are the jobs that men typically will do. 0.81
00:22:53.260 Yeah.
00:22:53.820 Yeah.
00:22:54.740 They'd be forced to take the jobs that women are also taking now in an all-male society. 1.00
00:22:59.400 So you might have less of an inherent GDP gain unless you could show that within equivalent jobs, men led to more efficient outcomes.
00:23:06.480 I don't know if there's data on that.
00:23:07.660 I'd be open to it.
00:23:08.280 But things are changing.
00:23:09.100 If you're looking at earnings potential, women in their 20s are now way out-earning men in their 20s.
00:23:14.800 So it's starting to flip.
00:23:16.900 It's starting to go the other way.
00:23:18.360 Oh, yeah.
00:23:19.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:19.540 And I suspect –
00:23:20.540 Because I think they're –
00:23:21.500 Education.
00:23:22.320 Yeah.
00:23:22.620 Sorry?
00:23:24.120 Education.
00:23:24.680 Women graduate with college degrees at such a dramatically higher rate than men do.
00:23:29.120 Yeah.
00:23:29.340 And education – the problem with education is you're starting to see more verbal – like the reason girls are doing so much better is because education is becoming more verbal as opposed to visual. 0.86
00:23:38.740 And a lot of these – a lot of these manual labor jobs require visual thinking as opposed to verbal thinking.
00:23:45.040 And like they're pulling out – my old middle school, I just looked up the number of teachers, male versus female.
00:23:50.640 And there's only two male teachers, right?
00:23:52.600 Back when I was a kid, it was like 50-50.
00:23:54.540 They also pulled out the shop class.
00:23:56.160 That's gone.
00:23:57.180 So they're just – they're eliminating – and they replaced it with feminist music class, right? 0.99
00:24:02.380 So they're teaching like Black Lives Matter hymns. 0.95
00:24:04.880 I'm like, wow, this is a skill that's going to help civilization continue.
00:24:08.760 I'm also thinking actually when I'm thinking about what would a society that's primarily male look like – this is imperfect, obviously, because women did actually play a pretty big role in the Spartan world.
00:24:19.980 But like that was a world in which to a great extent it seemed like childcare was pooled.
00:24:24.920 So it was managed at scale.
00:24:26.580 It wasn't really so much that like women did all the child rearing as much as – in other societies at least.
00:24:33.420 Like the kids weren't always in the home.
00:24:34.540 They were often training collectively.
00:24:36.240 So like I could see an all-male society in which you have all the children training collectively more or less at scale, like in a really efficient manner that also creates pretty successful humans. 0.98
00:24:48.480 I've looked at Sparta, and the problem with Sparta, it was very matriarchal. 1.00
00:24:52.720 But what happened was it didn't last very long.
00:24:55.460 It only lasted like a few generations compared to societies like Athens that were more like patriarchal.
00:25:01.160 So if you look at Sparta versus Athens, it's more matriarchal versus patriarchal than anything else.
00:25:05.480 Was part of that matriarchal – like women were property managers, but they weren't really – were they that involved in politics and ruling? 1.00
00:25:12.460 I'm not 100% sure, but I know that they were involved in the economy.
00:25:15.860 So that was the thing.
00:25:16.540 Well, yeah, my understanding was like they would stay at home and they would run the farm.
00:25:20.080 But like in a modern economy – so if we're looking at like the MGTOW Sparta, that would just be like automated.
00:25:26.320 Property management and stuff would not be something that anyone needed to do.
00:25:29.360 Like in the modern age, the role that women played in Sparta is not necessary at all. 0.91
00:25:34.400 So you would just more look at what we would see –
00:25:37.380 But neither is the role that men played.
00:25:39.040 A slave manager is not a big job in today's society.
00:25:42.940 Men didn't manage the slaves. 1.00
00:25:44.360 Men like trained and were like – 0.75
00:25:46.860 What were they training to do?
00:25:49.080 Put down slave revolts? 0.62
00:25:52.220 I mean, I'm sure they can do something else.
00:25:55.480 You know, they did what the nation needed in order to gain wealth.
00:25:58.700 So theoretically, they would train to do really awesome stuff that's a little bit more –
00:26:02.740 They did gain wealth, but you notice in that culture, like if you look at the ruins of Athens versus the ruins of Sparta, there's nothing in Sparta.
00:26:10.260 There's no great art.
00:26:11.320 There's no – like architecture.
00:26:12.500 It's all like not – the level is not there.
00:26:16.100 They weren't so effete though. 0.99
00:26:17.780 I mean, you know, they got shit done. 0.96
00:26:20.020 I don't know. 0.99
00:26:20.240 I know.
00:26:20.740 They weren't interested in art.
00:26:22.200 So you see art –
00:26:22.700 They weren't girly men.
00:26:24.140 I don't know what to tell you.
00:26:25.520 I can't help you here.
00:26:26.940 Our cultural framework.
00:26:28.020 So I love that you're so like Calvin.
00:26:29.780 It's in your world tradition. 0.97
00:26:31.300 Art, disgusting. 0.98
00:26:32.740 What a sign of degeneracy.
00:26:36.000 And this is actually genuinely something we believe I think puts us at odds with a lot of like the manosphere right now where they're like, look at the old artists.
00:26:44.100 And Simone's looking at that and she's like, I don't know.
00:26:46.980 That looks kind of girly.
00:26:50.080 Statues.
00:26:50.860 I'm a bunch of nerds.
00:26:53.500 Maybe.
00:26:54.080 Anyway.
00:26:54.640 Anyway.
00:26:54.920 I have loved this conversation.
00:26:57.180 Let's do another one.
00:26:58.820 People should check out his YouTube.
00:27:01.200 You can just look up Sandman on YouTube and we'll have a link here.
00:27:04.680 Sandman MGTOW.
00:27:05.860 And is there anything else they should check out?
00:27:08.080 Oh, but what about this doll?
00:27:09.260 Can they buy this?
00:27:10.400 No.
00:27:10.580 So this is still on the development concept stage.
00:27:14.340 So you can buy the dolls.
00:27:15.560 There's actually, I've been selling dolls for many years, but in terms of buying the technology, not yet.
00:27:22.240 What do they look like compared to real dolls?
00:27:24.240 Like what are we picturing here?
00:27:25.660 You take a real doll, but you remove the head and you remove the vaginal insert and you, those things are technological, but the rest of the doll is pretty much a real doll. 0.74
00:27:34.560 Oh, sweet.
00:27:35.360 Okay, cool.
00:27:36.040 So it's off the shelf technology.
00:27:37.260 So you're not inventing new technology.
00:27:39.520 Go ahead.
00:27:40.660 Oh, no, I was just describing what you said earlier.
00:27:42.400 He explained the series.
00:27:43.320 Yeah, with the head.
00:27:44.140 Yeah.
00:27:44.680 Yeah.
00:27:45.000 I was just wondering, I wasn't sure whether the picture like blow up doll for bachelor parties or like real doll.
00:27:50.560 No, it would be silicone, like a steel frame with silicone over it.
00:27:54.100 Yeah.
00:27:54.180 Okay, sweet, sweet, sweet.
00:27:55.020 Yeah, that's way better.
00:27:56.100 Okay, cool.
00:27:57.180 Is that what we're selling on our channel now is, I love it.
00:28:01.500 I'm sorry, real dolls are like great.
00:28:03.160 I don't, I'm just like, I want to know what the foundation is.
00:28:06.060 These things matter to me.
00:28:07.520 Cool.
00:28:07.800 Yes.
00:28:08.240 I think they're a very interesting technological innovation in terms of society right now.
00:28:14.900 And they change a lot of potential social structures, I think in pretty big ways that I'm really excited.
00:28:19.700 And your technology is very interesting because it would create a completely new economy and a completely new relationship dynamic.
00:28:28.120 Yeah.
00:28:28.380 And a huge amount of social fallout from that would be very fun to observe.
00:28:33.180 You like the chaos, right?
00:28:36.620 I like the way groups adapt to new things because it's interesting.
00:28:42.080 And I would be annoyed by the groups that just reflexively yell at you for doing something new, but they'd exist too, right?
00:28:49.400 Yeah, totally.
00:28:50.240 No, it's, it, the technology would basically, my whole thing with the technology was it allows intimacy.
00:28:55.700 It creates an intimacy.
00:28:57.360 So say two partners are on either side of the world, they can have a sexual intimate relationship without being in physical contact with each other, but still be able to get each other off.
00:29:09.340 Yeah.
00:29:09.960 I like that.
00:29:11.340 I'm excited.
00:29:12.400 The future is here.