Reproductive Futures for the Men's Rights Movement
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Summary
In this episode, we are joined by MGTOW founder, Sandman, to discuss his journey to becoming a single father. Sandman and Simone discuss the benefits and drawbacks of being a single parent vs. being in a relationship with a partner, and how technology can be a game changer in the reproductive strategy.
Transcript
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A lot of guys are also looking for, they want lover bots or sex bots because they're trying
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to compartmentalize every aspect of what you would get from a woman and take technology
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And this is something that a lot of women that I've spoken to, they get really uppity
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Why would they choose a real life woman versus using the technology?
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And I do, I thought that's one of my favorite arguments that I see, like within MGTOW,
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just, hey, listen, when you look at the difference between a suboptimal relationship with a spouse,
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where you're paying a lot extra for everything versus like getting everything piecemeal,
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it really is crazy that people would choose to have a suboptimal relationship with a spouse
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It is so wonderful to be here with you today, Simone.
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So actually, before he reached out to us, he was on an email list for us to reach out
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to, because we were interested in reaching out to the people in the MGTOW community.
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And I was like, okay, so who are the top MGTOW people these days?
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And I looked and the first name was Sandman, who they called the Mount Rushmore of the MGTOW
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So for people who aren't familiar with the MGTOW community, this stands for men going their
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own way, which is a cultural response to the raw deal many men feel they're getting in society
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And you can correct me if I said anything wrong there.
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We are going to talk about something way beyond the basics of MGTOW, which is reproductive
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Because just because you may be opting out of traditional relationships with women doesn't
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And it doesn't mean that you don't want your cultural group to survive into the future.
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How can we use technology and different strategies?
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How can we make MGTOW an intergenerationally durable cultural group?
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So the first thing, when I started my channel back in end of 2013, the first thing that came
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to mind was I don't want to get married, but I still want to have children.
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And the first thing I looked at was gestational surrogacy.
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And you can go and buy eggs for $5,000, $6,000 on the open market.
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And then you can go and pay for a surrogate in another country.
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And then you can reproduce and you can have all the children you want.
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And so when I put that video out, I got a good response, but a lot of women were very
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upset because they said, you're depriving the children of a mother.
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They said, yes, this is the argument that was being thrown around.
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And I'm thinking to myself, but what about all the single mothers out there that are
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Just to add to this, because the audience might not be familiar with this statistic, is
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And while coming from a single mother household has a lot of negative implications on children
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long-term, single father households actually don't have that many negative implications.
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There's alternative reasons why this might be the case.
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It might be that typically because courts so disproportionately favor women, divorce courts
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do, that really the only time that when people get a divorce or in the relationship
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for some sort of bad reason, the kids are going to the mother, but if one of the parents
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But it is just a true thing in most of the data that being a single father has much better
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So about five or 10 different guys over the years have contacted me and they've told me
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that they've tried gestational surrogacy either in Ukraine or in Africa or in Mexico.
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When I first saw what was going on, I thought, okay, I'm going to do India because India
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seemed to be the most cost effective at the time you could get for $12,000 roughly.
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You're looking at the cost is very low, but it's not just that it's also to do with genetic
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I know you guys are very involved in genetic selection.
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When you go through, you can pick through all the different surrogates.
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So if you're a five foot five short man lit, you're not going to get many women to date
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So what you want to do is you want to go and find someone that's five foot nine, five foot
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And then you can basically up the value of your children and get them higher in the sexual
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You want to talk about the cost of that, Simone?
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First, if we're talking about the cost of surrogacy, it's typically well over $100,000 in the United
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But what I'm asking is what would be the marginal cost if he was able to do this in India to
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It's non-trivial now, and hopefully it will be a lot less expensive in the future.
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So right now, I think genomic prediction, which is the gold standard of like your typical
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getting it started, polygenic risk score selection, I think is around like $400 per embryo
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But that would allow you to look at things like height for every one of those embryos.
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Genomic prediction only tells you a series of politically correct health scores.
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So you need to export the data and send it to other people.
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So you need to export it and then upload it to other platforms.
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Self-decode being one that's more affordable and also like publicly open about, yes, we'll
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I don't know if currently they have one for height though.
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But India banned, banned everything about, I think it was about 10 or 11 years ago.
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So it was banned for foreigners and was banned for single individuals.
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So they, yeah, they're, the discrimination is getting pretty crazy.
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So that seems to be Ukraine was always a possibility for a while, obviously not anymore right now.
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And then over time, I thought to myself, this is a good reproductive strategy, but I came
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So I decided, okay, that's not going to really work for me.
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So what could, what else, what other health strategies, what other reproductive strategies
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And so I look at Elon Musk and I look at his reproductive strategy as what I would like
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So he's just going out there and reproducing with as many women as he can.
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I think he's up to 11, 12, 13 children right now.
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And, but he's, he doesn't have the, he does not implementing a cultural strategy.
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It's not, it's one thing to pass your genes down to the next generation, but how do you ensure
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And, and that's something that I didn't really think about.
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And so my, my idea was when I get older, when I'm Sam in my sixties or seventies, I pay for
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I put them up for adoption with different, different people who have, there's financially
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successful and I can put them up in different parts of the world, which increases the possibility
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of survival in case there's like a thermonuclear war or something ridiculous.
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So now I'm looking at other strategies, which if in the next few years, if I get my autoimmune
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issues under control and Bitcoin does what it's supposed to, then I'm thinking probably
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within five, six years, I might implement the surrogacy strategy.
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What I would say is it doesn't even matter how many kids you immediately have.
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If you're thinking about the long-term impact culturally, whatever that you would have through
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children, it doesn't matter how many kids you have.
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It matters how many grandkids you have and how many kids they have in turn.
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So like someone could have 10 kids, someone could have 30 kids.
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And if those kids all hate you and either don't have kids at all, or don't pass on anything
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So we've also got to keep in mind that MGTOW cultural strategies are going to become more
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Artificial loom technology is getting nearer and nearer to viable.
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And that could make having kids without a partner very inexpensive.
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It could even make, yeah, different types of genetic recombination possible.
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But as you guys know, it's not just the cost of reproduction.
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It's the cost of daycare and all the other stuff.
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Like what a lot of people have been thinking about in terms of reproduction for MGTOW is there's
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the holy, there's a few holy grail technologies that will allow these things to happen.
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But a lot of guys are also looking for, they want lover bots or sex bots because they're
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trying to, you're trying to compartmentalize every aspect of what you would get from a
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woman and take technology and replace everything.
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And this is something that a lot of women that I've spoken to, they get really uppity because
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it's, it makes, it creates obsolescence, right?
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In certain ways, and all of a sudden it limits their ability to mate select, because if all
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of a sudden you have 70, 80, 90% of the male population, they can gain access to these
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technologies, then why would they choose a real life woman versus using the technology?
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And I do, I thought that's one of my favorite arguments that I see like within MGTOW, just,
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hey, listen, when you look at the difference between the suboptimal relationship with a
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spouse, where you're paying a lot extra for everything versus like getting everything
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piecemeal, it really is crazy that people would choose to have a suboptimal relationship
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And yes, with IVG in the future, and who knows like how far, Malcolm, what's your estimate on
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I think our kids will almost certainly 99% probability have access to them when they
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You just, I don't know, 10 years, could be 20 years.
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And the problem is that a lot of this stuff has to be done in secret because the public
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And I think that that's a really interesting thing that's talked about a lot in the MGTOW
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community, which I don't think the general public is as aware of.
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So I want to talk about this subject a little, the way that feminist groups really freak out
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about stuff like sex bots in a way that like, okay, obviously, so the perception often within
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the MGTOW community around this is they cognizantly understand how this lowers their power on sexual
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But I don't feel like they're thinking about it.
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They feel like it lowers their power versus anything.
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So for example, I was, okay, so I've been working on my own version of a, I wouldn't
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I would call it more like a virtual sex system.
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The way it works is it projects a real life woman into the sex doll so that you interact
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with the real woman and you're stimulating the technology, but there's this technology on
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Teletildonics is what this field is called, by the way.
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I thought there were some interesting opportunities in the field.
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So when I first introduced the technology to a couple of women, they got very hostile.
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So my instinct, my, for my white knighting instinct was activated.
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And I thought like, how could I make this woman feel more comfortable about what I was
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And I, my subconscious just said, well, I'm not going to just replace women with an AI.
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I'm going to, I'm going to allow you to interact with the man through the technology.
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And all of a sudden the mood and the hostility just disappeared because all of a sudden the
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hamster in her head started running and the hamster figured out, okay, if I can use this
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technology, then I can have a new way to exploit the simpish population over the internet.
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Because with the way the technology, like the way I've developed the technology, like I've
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got, like I can show you guys crude pieces of prototypes.
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So the sex doll, but you take the head, the sex doll heads are like removable.
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Then what you do is you put a plastic see-through transparent plastic head on there.
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And then you put an ultra short throw projector on the back.
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So you take the vaginal insert out and you put one in with sensors.
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She can see you through the, through the face and she can interact with you.
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And then on her end, there's technology that's capturing her face in real time.
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And there's also the teledildonics that are thrusting in and out.
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You know, you can use all kinds of different technologies.
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I feel like I would, as a guy, as a girl, I would prefer like my waifu slash husband
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So one thing he said that I thought was really interesting that I think is interesting is
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So look at current ways that women can, I don't know, what do you want to say, exploit or whatever,
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They are typically one to many approaches, which mean that the very best women just completely
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This is whether it's OnlyFans or sex chatting websites or something like that.
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What makes this technology unique is that it monopolizes a woman's time with one guy
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So it's actually much more democratizing of women's ability to make money in online environments,
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This is so not where I thought the conversation was going to go, Sandman, when you mentioned
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I want to figure out how to also replace the elements of a female presence in the home.
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I'm picturing Mother from the Umbrella Academy, which I'm not sure if you've watched that
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show, but they're just like, yeah, this robotic 1950s trad wife woman.
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In terms of replacing, there's technologies like they're creating robot shops and you can,
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I've got like a vacuum that kind of just does its own thing and all that kind of stuff.
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Those are just appliances that kind of do that.
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But to have a, you have to think about this technology.
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We can't get to the full Android within the next 50, 100, like it's going to take a long
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So you have to look at all the intermediate steps between like full Android and where
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we are today and how you, and you have to push the technology forward.
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You have to start working on those intermediate steps and making them good, right?
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So the, so, because if you create, if I create my virtual sex system, then people will see
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the possibility and they'll start adding more things to it, right?
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So all of a sudden there'll be sensors built into the doll so you can touch it.
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And there's all, there's already cloth that women can wear that'll actually transmit like
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the feel of somebody else from a, from a distance.
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So this is something that's really interesting.
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So I'm thinking, you know, when you were talking about the mother system, okay, let's
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You would be able to easily likely have an AI that is shared between both your sexual release
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mechanisms and the mothering figure in the household, right?
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So it's the same personality to many extents, but like different aspects of it for different
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But once you do that and women could do something similar.
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And once you don't need somebody of the opposite gender to have a kid or opposite sex is more
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politically correct to say, I don't know which one's more politically correct these
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Once you don't need someone of the opposite sex to have a kid that then how many people
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we're talking about the percentage of durable cultural groups that survive, how many of them
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will actually keep up this male female dynamic versus how many of them will be just totally
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male cultures with simulated female partners and totally female cultures with simulated
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We also have to think about the advantage of having a society where it's 90, 90 plus percent
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males versus more females, because the males are going to pay more tax.
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But again, AI could make all of that irrelevant.
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There's so many unknowns at this point, but I'm definitely thinking in terms of, so let's
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say you got, you take 90% males and say they choose to reproduce.
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We don't know if people are, would even reproduce if you gave them these options.
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Like we're getting to this point where society is atomizing so much that I don't know, like
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It's almost like you have to cater to people's narcissism.
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And that's another one of the things I was going to bring up in terms of reproduction.
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There's a show I mentioned to Malcolm called Foundation.
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And there's the Cleon dynasty, genetic dynasty.
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So if you create like a lineage where you're passing your clone down, you're going from
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one generation to the next, then it, what your aptitudes are, what your strengths and
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So you can, you're more likely to guide the clone forward.
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And also a clone would be technically your brother and you would be the father at the
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You know what I liked about this and we talked about this and we're talking about on the
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call is it would allow for culture to become a lot weirder and a lot more specialized right
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We talk about to how some extent cultures co-evolve with different groups, right?
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Because each the culture is putting a pressure on the genetics and the genetics is putting
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But if you had a pure breeding, like that means that you have the same genetics within each
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generation, it's what you talk about in mice or something like that, like bread pure.
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It doesn't mean like pure as in like ethnically.
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Anyway, if you have a pure breeding, like same genes, every generation, individual, and then
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a culture that's adapting itself within that group, I think it would become pretty radically
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different than anything we see in society today to the point that you were making because
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you could know exactly, not just what strengths and weaknesses your kid is going to have,
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but what strengths and weaknesses your great grandkid is going to have.
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Also, if you don't need to prime somebody to look for a partner, that changes a lot of how
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How do you think, so let's say that there is like this isolated male society where it's
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How do you think culture would be different, especially when like women are no longer a point
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I've, I've crawled over, I've gone through most of the old West.
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I've gone through all ghost towns and I've seen, you get.
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Because you get 80, 90% males and you get 10%, 15% females.
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It's really interesting because the jobs for women are usually prostitute and barmaid and
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They really almost are more like sex dolls in that world, right?
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And there's this one town called Castle Dome and it's in Arizona, just outside of Yuma.
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And when I went down there, there's this bathtub that these prostitutes would haul from town
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to bathe the Johns because they didn't want to, they wanted to make sure they were clean,
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So you're seeing, you're going to see if you have a mostly male society, like I said, it
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would out-compete societies that were more 50-50 or societies that had more females in
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them simply because males spend more time working and paying taxes.
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So I know there's a New Zealand study that shows that men pay $150,000 more in their lifetimes to tax in New Zealand than they actually take out.
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And to be clear, he's saying that they would out-compete economically speaking.
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They likely in current scenarios wouldn't out-compete in terms of fertility rates, but new technology could unlock that.
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And if people are wondering, to Simone's question, what does an all-male versus all-female society look like?
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A fun, now keep in mind, this has some staging to it and stuff like that.
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But if you want to get a feel for the differences, there was a survivor season where they separated people into an all-male and all-female group.
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And they created very different intra-group cultures.
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And I think the intra-group cultures they created, it explains to me why it is so prevalent among the friend groups I know to be like, of women, right?
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And then we'll create a group where it's all of us single moms working together to raise our kids.
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And yet none of these groups has ever survived more than six months that I'm aware of.
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And I think that episode shows why, not episode season or whatever.
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I also think that an all-male society would be more highly disagreeable.
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If you look at the Old West, it's obviously like there's shootings and there's lootings all over the place.
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It has to do with just men not getting angry, getting on each other's nerves and figuring out ways to relieve the violence with, relieve the anger with violence.
00:21:10.680
One of my questions, though, is, isn't one of the reasons why, for example, men on average contribute more in tax dollars is because when they have children, their female partners are often participating in that in a way that doesn't show up in the modern economy, like uncompensated labor.
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Because women, on average, just prefer to do that work, so they pick it up.
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There must be some numbers that are off there, right?
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And the gender pay gap argument, women, they take more time off for raising the young, so that's going to affect their earnings potential down the road.
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It's going to affect their earnings potential immediately.
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So when a man is in love, he's more likely to put more effort into his family and put more effort into things.
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But my concern is that if men now are solely responsible for raising kids, like also theoretically, their contribution to GDP will take a hit.
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Or at least their contribution to measured financial GDP will take a hit.
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The other thing to keep in mind, Simone, is that if you look at low-skilled jobs that pay a lot, they are disproportionately male-held jobs.
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You're looking at like high-danger jobs, high-etc.
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But here's what I think we can forget about this.
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If you had a society that was only men, would also have to sort into the low-skilled jobs that are disproportionately female today that are lower-paying, like teacher, etc.
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Malcolm was bringing up the – it's the three Ds, dangerous, difficult, and dirty jobs.
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They'd be forced to take the jobs that women are also taking now in an all-male society.
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So you might have less of an inherent GDP gain unless you could show that within equivalent jobs, men led to more efficient outcomes.
00:23:09.100
If you're looking at earnings potential, women in their 20s are now way out-earning men in their 20s.
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Women graduate with college degrees at such a dramatically higher rate than men do.
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And education – the problem with education is you're starting to see more verbal – like the reason girls are doing so much better is because education is becoming more verbal as opposed to visual.
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And a lot of these – a lot of these manual labor jobs require visual thinking as opposed to verbal thinking.
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And like they're pulling out – my old middle school, I just looked up the number of teachers, male versus female.
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So they're just – they're eliminating – and they replaced it with feminist music class, right?
00:24:02.380
So they're teaching like Black Lives Matter hymns.
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I'm like, wow, this is a skill that's going to help civilization continue.
00:24:08.760
I'm also thinking actually when I'm thinking about what would a society that's primarily male look like – this is imperfect, obviously, because women did actually play a pretty big role in the Spartan world.
00:24:19.980
But like that was a world in which to a great extent it seemed like childcare was pooled.
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It wasn't really so much that like women did all the child rearing as much as – in other societies at least.
00:24:36.240
So like I could see an all-male society in which you have all the children training collectively more or less at scale, like in a really efficient manner that also creates pretty successful humans.
00:24:48.480
I've looked at Sparta, and the problem with Sparta, it was very matriarchal.
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But what happened was it didn't last very long.
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It only lasted like a few generations compared to societies like Athens that were more like patriarchal.
00:25:01.160
So if you look at Sparta versus Athens, it's more matriarchal versus patriarchal than anything else.
00:25:05.480
Was part of that matriarchal – like women were property managers, but they weren't really – were they that involved in politics and ruling?
00:25:12.460
I'm not 100% sure, but I know that they were involved in the economy.
00:25:16.540
Well, yeah, my understanding was like they would stay at home and they would run the farm.
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But like in a modern economy – so if we're looking at like the MGTOW Sparta, that would just be like automated.
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Property management and stuff would not be something that anyone needed to do.
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Like in the modern age, the role that women played in Sparta is not necessary at all.
00:25:34.400
So you would just more look at what we would see –
00:25:39.040
A slave manager is not a big job in today's society.
00:25:55.480
You know, they did what the nation needed in order to gain wealth.
00:25:58.700
So theoretically, they would train to do really awesome stuff that's a little bit more –
00:26:02.740
They did gain wealth, but you notice in that culture, like if you look at the ruins of Athens versus the ruins of Sparta, there's nothing in Sparta.
00:26:36.000
And this is actually genuinely something we believe I think puts us at odds with a lot of like the manosphere right now where they're like, look at the old artists.
00:26:44.100
And Simone's looking at that and she's like, I don't know.
00:27:01.200
You can just look up Sandman on YouTube and we'll have a link here.
00:27:05.860
And is there anything else they should check out?
00:27:10.580
So this is still on the development concept stage.
00:27:15.560
There's actually, I've been selling dolls for many years, but in terms of buying the technology, not yet.
00:27:25.660
You take a real doll, but you remove the head and you remove the vaginal insert and you, those things are technological, but the rest of the doll is pretty much a real doll.
00:27:40.660
Oh, no, I was just describing what you said earlier.
00:27:45.000
I was just wondering, I wasn't sure whether the picture like blow up doll for bachelor parties or like real doll.
00:27:50.560
No, it would be silicone, like a steel frame with silicone over it.
00:27:57.180
Is that what we're selling on our channel now is, I love it.
00:28:03.160
I don't, I'm just like, I want to know what the foundation is.
00:28:08.240
I think they're a very interesting technological innovation in terms of society right now.
00:28:14.900
And they change a lot of potential social structures, I think in pretty big ways that I'm really excited.
00:28:19.700
And your technology is very interesting because it would create a completely new economy and a completely new relationship dynamic.
00:28:28.380
And a huge amount of social fallout from that would be very fun to observe.
00:28:36.620
I like the way groups adapt to new things because it's interesting.
00:28:42.080
And I would be annoyed by the groups that just reflexively yell at you for doing something new, but they'd exist too, right?
00:28:50.240
No, it's, it, the technology would basically, my whole thing with the technology was it allows intimacy.
00:28:57.360
So say two partners are on either side of the world, they can have a sexual intimate relationship without being in physical contact with each other, but still be able to get each other off.