In this episode, we talk about how the antinatalist movement came to be, why it s a disorder, and why we should be worried about it. We talk about the dark triad personality traits that appear to be associated with Antinatalism, and what it means for our understanding of the phenomenon.
00:00:00.000The core personality traits that appear to be associated with antinatalism are generally dark triad personality traits, but specifically antagonistic narcissism, psychopathic meanness, psychopathic disinhibition, and antagonistic Machiavellianism.
00:00:20.620And then the other article that looked into this found Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy were the primary traits that predicted antinatalist belief systems, and then secondarily was depression.
00:00:35.120Yeah, and the difference is that we had thought that depression was first and foremost the big correlatory factor.
00:00:40.980Yeah, yeah. You needed to be a narcissistic psychopath, and if you are a narcissistic psychopath and depressed, you're likely to be an antinatalist.
00:00:48.320You're a sad, narcissistic psychopath.
00:00:51.240Like, the level of narcissistic sociopathy that would deny life to another person who would want to live just because you personally would prefer to kill yourself but don't want to take the responsibility of killing yourself, to me, is just this insane level of sociopathy.
00:01:12.080These studies helped me understand why we have such trouble getting through to the antinatalist community with logical arguments, because it was never based on logic to begin with.
00:01:21.200See, it was always a psychiatric condition.
00:01:36.360We love shitting all over people, and who doesn't?
00:01:39.180No, hold on. The great thing about the pronatalist movement, and being seen as sort of its leaders, is the antithesis of us, the antinatalist movement, is just so, like...
00:01:50.200Like, every time I dig deeper, it somehow is worse than I could have conceived it was.
00:01:58.660It's somehow crazier than I could have conceived it was, and it's somehow more just, like, transparently and obviously the bad guys in sort of this conflicting...
00:02:11.740You know, I don't feel like there's been a fight in a long time where there were, like, obvious bad guys and good guys since, like, World War II and fighting the Nazis.
00:02:19.080You know, people sort of almost reminisce about these old times where there was a very obvious good guy side and a very obvious bad guy side.
00:02:28.500The antinatalist movement, you know, they're like, well, we have to keep humans alive so we can kill all life on the planet, too.
00:02:34.140But let's go into, like, how they came up again recently for us, right?
00:02:38.300Is I was having to do an audit of how different terms do and how our movement is doing in different search results.
00:02:47.600And the audit was actually kind of depressing for me in many ways, in that I'll look up something like demographic collapse, and when I'm doing it in, like, an incognito browser, everything's like, this is why demographic collapse isn't a problem at all.
00:03:03.980Actually, I should do some screenshots of this because I know, I know in, like, two years when it's just so obvious that this is an issue, everyone's going to say no one was ever saying that.
00:03:13.400Everyone always knew this was an issue.
00:03:16.900We had a reporter over from France at our house yesterday, and she goes, what do you think of all these, you know, researchers at universities who are saying you guys are fake science and that you guys are making all this up?
00:03:25.760And I'm like, I love that they're saying this.
00:03:30.280Because the more of them you put on record, the better I'm going to look in a few years when it turns out that we were 100% correct.
00:03:37.820And right now, I'm, like, not even predicting this future data.
00:03:41.280It's like my scary predictions are just what's in the data right now, and they're not looking year to year at how bad things have gotten.
00:03:47.920But anyway, antinatalists are different, right?
00:03:50.460Like, they're not deniers that this is a problem.
00:03:52.720A lot of antinatalists know how bad fertility rates have gotten.
00:03:55.920They just think it's a morally good thing for people who want to learn more about it.
00:03:58.740Yeah, it shares them up, which means a lot because they're often very depressed.
00:04:02.260But we can talk about that because there's statistics on this now.
00:04:05.080So this is something I hadn't thought to do, was to actually look up the statistics that correlated with antinatalism.
00:04:11.320And my naive thought from reading the antinatalist post is that depression would be the primary correlating psychological condition with antinatalism.
00:04:21.980And my naive thought, actually, like, we had a debate with leading antinatalists of at least one faction, John and Lawrence Anton in London.
00:04:29.920And they were incredibly, like, it was clear that they were in it because they were deeply, deeply, philosophically, intellectually concerned negative utilitarians.
00:04:40.680Like, we ate in a vegan restaurant for dinner.
00:04:42.640No, you're autistic and you're bad at reading people.
00:05:04.540But anyway, so everybody knows, you know, and we've done episodes on this if people want to go into it more.
00:05:10.680The psychological trait that is really overwhelmingly overrepresented in the pronatalist movement is autism.
00:05:17.740This is where the joke in the pronatalist movement of the greater replacement theory comes from, that the autists are going to replace everyone else.
00:05:24.700But I'd also say it's not just autism that is overwhelmingly seen in the pronatalist movement.
00:05:30.160There's two other traits that I've noticed really, really big in the pronatalist movement.
00:05:35.460One is general high mood, like general happiness.
00:05:40.180Most of the pronatalists we know are like, I'd say bubbly people, maybe even a little.
00:05:45.380Low anxiety, low neuroticism, relatively speaking, from a type of person who often you would expect to be high neuroticism.
00:05:53.400Like at the natalism conference, a lot of like really big intellectual speakers and thinkers, like, you know, high caliber people were there.
00:06:02.240And yet they the ones who had kids were like pretty chill for that.
00:06:07.580No, it's a very low neuroticism movement.
00:06:09.960And I'd say very high pro-sociality, like natural pro-sociality.
00:06:14.860So I'd say high autism, low neuroticism, a bit higher than normal pro-sociality.
00:06:21.940Like the conference felt really weird to me because typically when I go to conferences where there's like something that people are like autistically obsessed with, you get higher than normal neuroticism within those communities.
00:06:34.220And it was a very interesting environment because you both had the autistic, like, oh, everyone here is automatically my friend and I'm going to go up and talk to them and be nice to them.
00:06:46.380And you have like an anime convention or something like that.
00:06:49.800But then you didn't have the like constant fear from some people there where it's like constantly little explosions are happening because one group thinks everyone else is their friend.
00:06:59.380And then the other group is like super neurotic about people coming up and trying to engage with them.
00:07:07.520But so I'm looking at the statistics on what is most correlated with antinatalism.
00:07:12.860And I found it turns out that there's actually like a body of literature on this, at least multiple studies.
00:07:18.920And it seems like more than this because one here is talking about a larger body of studies here.
00:07:24.000So this has been at least replicated twice.
00:07:26.360So the core personality traits that appear to be associated with antinatalism are generally dark triad personality traits, but specifically antagonistic narcissism, psychopathic meanness, psychopathic disinhibition, and antagonistic Machiavellianism.
00:07:49.000I didn't even know that like, wait, so what's the opposite of antagonistic Machiavellianism?
00:07:56.580I guess like super love-bomby Machiavellianism.
00:08:02.540So this article that I was just quoting from came from dark personality traits and antinatalist beliefs, the mediating role of primal world beliefs.
00:08:12.500And then the other article that looked into this, specifically this other article found Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy were the primary traits that predicted antinatalist belief systems.
00:08:48.040No, and I think that this is a thing when we're talking about the people we met and stuff like that, Simone.
00:08:52.740And this can, I think for a lot of people, they hear antinatalist beliefs.
00:08:56.720And there is this like really, really flimsy justification for antinatalism.
00:09:02.000If anybody wants to hear our argument as to why it's not, like why we go deep into the logic of antinatalism, you can watch our video, these people want everyone dead and are weirdly reasonable about it.
00:09:13.400Or just, you know, look up the antinatalism video for Basecamp.
00:09:19.060But I always felt kind of uncomfortable with it.
00:09:21.860Because when I go over the arguments antinatalism, it is so logically sort of shaky and really contrived that I sort of have this feeling like, how are people arriving at this belief?
00:09:35.940And I was like, well, there must be a large amount of depressed people in the community, which there are, like objectively, if you look at what antinatalist posts there are.
00:09:46.700Now when I'm looking at how common narcissism and psychopathy are within the community, it really explains things for me.
00:09:55.820So imagine you are just like an incredibly narcissistic person.
00:10:00.380And anyone who has met with or known narcissistic people, people who have narcissism, even if they're fairly smart people, it's a psychological condition that makes it almost impossible for them to genuinely consider the world from another person's perspective.
00:10:15.600And so you have this inability to genuinely consider.
00:10:21.020And what does it mean to consider things from another person's perspective?
00:10:23.620Because I think that people hear this and they don't understand what I'm saying.
00:10:25.960Like a narcissistic person could hear this and be like, I think about things from other people's perspectives all the time.
00:10:32.680When a narcissist tries to think about the world from another person's perspective, they just clone their own personality and their own intentions onto the other person.
00:10:43.580So they don't consider, well, you don't, we'll talk about how you don't actually do that in a second, because I think that you're being overly disingenuous, not giving yourself enough credit.
00:10:54.280They are not good at considering that an outside person might genuinely have different ideas and motivations in them.
00:11:03.180They say, what would have driven me to that position?
00:11:06.760And then they use that to model the individual.
00:11:35.020Because of this psychological problem that they have.
00:11:39.060So, so this is why narcissism is so elevated within the community.
00:11:43.320It's it's, you've got this depressed population and depression is really high within the urban monoculture, because for reasons we've talked about in other videos, you can look up like the cult of psychologists episode we've done.
00:11:52.440If you want more on that, but, you know, people who are far progressives are much more likely to be depressed because they've stripped out a lot of their traditional sort of emotional infrastructure.
00:12:03.060And then they become susceptible to a lot of these memetic sets, which prey on sort of their depression, like the modern day psychologist movement, which psychologists used to be great.
00:12:54.320Okay, no, hold on, but we got to go back to where we were talking about here.
00:12:57.700We've done other videos on this other stuff, and people can watch that if that's what they're interested in.
00:13:03.240So you're out there, and you are depressed, and you have this narcissistic personality trait.
00:13:09.020You are unable to believe that other people like their lives, and you are unable to genuinely accept their perception and their arguments about why life is worth living.
00:13:18.700Because you personally, and this is common when a person has clinical depression, you personally are unable to see the genuine positives of being alive.
00:13:28.200But then the question would be like, yeah, but it's not just narcissism that this has a heavy overlap with.
00:13:34.420It's also psychopathy and Machiavellianism.
00:13:37.380And it's like, well, yes, because there's individuals who hear this, and they're like, okay, everyone else is just faking being happy.
00:14:04.760Well, now, only a small minority does.
00:14:06.340We have to be clear that most antinatalists just don't want any more humans to exist.
00:14:12.020So they want to basically end humanity, but not necessarily kill all living humans.
00:14:15.500Again, I think this is you believing what people are saying to you as a kind face and not—
00:14:21.800If you look at what they say behind the scenes, and I will post a clip here of the leading female antinatalist in the world, what does she say?
00:14:30.520She says, if I could press a button, and it would kill all humans today, even if it meant they had to die by being skinned alive, I would still press that button.
00:14:40.840Yeah, so look, in the interest of the end, if you could end suffering tomorrow, yeah, probably anything is justifiable.
00:14:50.160Inflicting just about anything is probably justifiable.
00:14:53.080Imposing just about anything is probably justifiable if you can end it.
00:14:58.580If there's literally you can guarantee no more ouch ever again, then there probably isn't a big enough ouch you could make that wouldn't be justified in the interest of that end, probably by any means necessary.
00:15:13.980Like, if I found out tomorrow that the only way that sentient extinction could possibly happen was skinning all the living things alive slowly, I'd hate it.
00:15:28.040But I would say that it's what we have to do.
00:15:30.960I'm totally on board with the idea that the only thing that really matters is the suffering coming to a finality.
00:15:41.220So, yeah, anything in the interest of that, if you can guarantee that, even despite whatever imposition or nastiness might be necessary.
00:15:57.900You, you, you, they, when they're talking to you, they're in nice mode, Simone.
00:16:04.760People aren't naturally confrontational with other people.
00:16:08.440And I think that you, because you have such a, well, then why, why when people are kidnapping other people, does it just go like, little miss, why don't you just step into this car, please?
00:16:49.500However, Stockholm Syndrome, the event in Stockholm that people attribute to Stockholm Syndrome is not a real example of Stockholm Syndrome.
00:18:15.620And I think it tells us a lot about the antinatalist movement.
00:18:20.180Because, you know, I have that one video where I go through and I'm reading, like, antinatalist subreddits and they're talking about how we need to kill everyone and how we...
00:18:28.840And you here, of course, as an outsider, are like, oh, they can't possibly mean that, right?
00:18:32.880Because a psychologically sound person wouldn't think like that.
00:18:38.400And so here you are thinking that these are psychologically...
00:18:43.320And keep in mind, like, psychopaths are very good at being affable with other people.
00:18:49.000This is how serial killers work, right?
00:18:52.160Like, you're here being like, oh, but the clown man was so nice, you know?
00:18:59.020He can't possibly be the serial killer.
00:19:01.620Whereas what you're actually seeing with the antinatalist community is what could essentially be thought of as a community of serial killers, basically.
00:19:10.200That has gotten together and is sharing ideas with each other.
00:19:12.900And I think that when you take into account...
00:19:16.540And this is why, like, if you look at our video logically arguing against antinatalism, and our points, I think, are just rock solid.
00:19:22.960I think if it was really logic that was driving them to this perception, that that video would have persuaded far more of them to deconvert from antinatalism than it did.
00:19:37.100Justification of something they want to believe, and so they go at it, and they're like, how can I make this belief system justifiable for myself?
00:19:45.880But I do not think that antinatalism is a belief system that is ever reached by logic.
00:19:50.660Because the logical arguments just aren't very good.
00:19:53.180Like, the asymmetry argument is garbage.
00:19:55.920And again, you can watch our video on this.
00:19:58.260And antinatalists also seem to have trouble engaging with logical arguments.
00:20:30.820But the person didn't consent to be born.
00:20:33.160And it's like, yeah, but they can end their lives whenever they want.
00:20:36.600And then he's basically like, yeah, but I don't want to deal with that.
00:20:39.540That's basically the response to you can end your life whenever you want within the antinatalist community is, wait, you're saying I have to take personal responsibility for my actions as they relate to myself?
00:21:16.140Like, the level of narcissistic sociopathy that would deny life to another person who would want to live just because you personally would prefer to kill yourself but don't want to take the responsibility of killing yourself, to me, is just this insane level of sociopathy.
00:21:38.480Which is very surprising to me that, like, and, well, not surprising to me, these studies helped me understand why we have such trouble getting through to the antinatalist community with logical arguments.
00:21:52.240Because it was never based on logic to begin with.
00:21:54.600It was always a psychiatric condition.
00:21:57.940But a dangerous and common psychiatric condition within the urban monoculture.
00:22:01.760Yeah, but at the same time, like, this is, this both sounds very dire, but also, in the end, could be very hopeful, assuming that these people don't change their stance and have a ton of kids, because then this is just a selective pressure against anti-
00:22:52.580So, historically, if you look at women, there is some attraction to dark triad personality traits, as you were talking about, was a kidnapper thing, right?
00:22:58.820Like, powerful men with dark triad personality traits.
00:23:01.120In a historical context, we're more attractive to women who wanted random flings.
00:23:05.680And the red pill will never let you forget it.
00:23:09.600Now, it's not useful, like, it's not a useful genetic strategy for a male, particularly these days.
00:23:15.080And somebody is like, well, what do you mean by that?
00:23:16.520It's because the women who will allow you to sleep with them, if they're, like, not interested in marrying you, are typically the low-caliber women, both intellectually, attractiveness, and other genetic qualities-wise.
00:23:30.180And then the high-caliber women, they have a reason to be much more selective about this.
00:23:34.960So, even when they are getting pregnant, they're typically selecting the sperm donor based on traits like prosociality.
00:23:41.600But if you're talking about, and this is, by the way, when women select sperm donors, prosociality is one of the core traits they look for in research.
00:23:50.060But if you are one of these men who just, like, sleeps around, and you have this Machiavellianism and narcissism and sociopathy, other drug triad traits, you, because you just genuinely don't care about other people or the world or your potential kids, you are not interested in getting other people pregnant.
00:24:08.020Because now there is huge negative consequences to you due to child support, at least insofar as you are, to any extent, successful.
00:24:15.440Now, if you are a very low genetic quality male, there's not as much risk to you.
00:24:19.940So, I think that these men are still sleeping around and within these communities, dark triad personality traits will persist.
00:24:25.500But what we're seeing now is among the mini-partner strategy that used to keep these traits stable was in populations.
00:24:33.200There is much less reason for these individuals to breed.
00:24:36.260And even within these people who might have now turned to more monogamous relationships and stuff like that, which are now joining the antinatalist movement, they're also being selected out of the population.
00:24:45.440Which, to me, leads me to believe that future human populations are going to be dramatically more pro-social and more empathetic than human populations in the world today.
00:24:59.600But also, if people know our other research on genetic selection, they're also going to be much more tribalistic and much more xenophobic.
00:25:06.200So, basically, you're going to have affable religious people who are very nice to anyone who they see as a cultural ally or within their community, and then who wants to kill everyone else in the world.
00:25:23.200Well, I mean, so do you have any thoughts on these studies?
00:25:29.580Because, I mean, I was really surprised.
00:25:31.660This is not, you know, I genuinely didn't expect to find...
00:25:35.580It's surprising because most people refer to pronatalists as narcissists.
00:25:40.520Like, oh, you're just trying to spam the world with your children, right?
00:25:44.080That's the constant accusation that we see for anyone who has a lot of kids.
00:25:49.260Oh, you're just so obsessed with yourself that you just, you know...
00:25:55.940Also because a really common way in which people hear about narcissistic individuals is in the context of, like, narcissistic parents who are really damaging to the lives of their children.
00:26:06.740So you just, I don't know, like, I think it's much more common in someone's evoked set to think about narcissists and, like, of self-obsessed people as being more likely to be a parent, which is surprising, but...
00:26:22.100Well, something I would encourage if people doubt this or are interested in learning about the antinatalist community, genuinely, just look up their YouTube channels.
00:26:30.040Watch them talk for a bit, and I'd suggest if you have a good ability at reading people, watch their eyes and watch their micro-expressions and face.
00:26:46.160People who are very good at reading other people typically rely on these sorts of expressions, but I don't know if they can be scientifically studied very easily.
00:26:54.660But as our audience may know, if they don't, is you are clinically autistic.
00:26:58.220You are very, very, very bad at reading people who just are, like, are they nice to me or are they mean to me and what are they saying?
00:27:07.180If they're nice to me and saying something, then they must be being honest.
00:27:10.760Whereas I am very, very good at reading people to, like, an insane amount.
00:27:34.280That vapid girl who you can't read my thoughts because I don't have any.
00:27:38.400And you're like, oh, this is so refreshing.
00:27:40.820I will actually say that it has been a major part of our relationship, is that I am very, very, very good at reading people.
00:27:47.680And because of that, I can genuinely, or not genuinely, but generally tell when somebody is manipulating me or attempting to manipulate me.
00:27:55.840And I think that that's actually pretty common for females in relationships.
00:28:00.180Well, and I think also it's very mentally taxing for you to keep modeling people when they behave like that.
00:28:45.840But if you go out and you watch these antinatalist channels as somebody who's good at reading people or if you are good at reading people, it's actually kind of obvious in hindsight that they feel this way.
00:28:56.340There is no antinatalist channel where people are, like on our channel, laughing a lot, affable to each other, right?
00:29:05.900Like, that seem to genuinely get pleasure out of life.
00:29:08.520Everything is very calculated and cold and dehumanizing of anyone who is not themselves.
00:29:17.740Anyway, Simone, I love you and a fun episode.
00:29:20.600And again, I'm always grateful to our enemies to allow me to know I have made the right choices in life to align myself with people who are nice to me and generally don't try to tear me down.
00:29:31.900Because the pronatalist community is overwhelmingly nice, except for one guy.
00:29:38.040But he doesn't go to the conferences and nobody really talks to him and everyone hates him.