00:21:38.760So once you're hooked, and I imagine it's very easy to get hooked,
00:21:42.500recruits can start to receive travel instructions
00:21:45.480or small tasks turn into smuggling runs.
00:21:49.520and this nonprofit, this like think tank that looks at crime and does a lot of investigation
00:21:55.360called In Crime, they report that cartels like CJNG in Sinaloa or Cartel del Noreste are linked
00:22:03.560to these types of recruiting efforts. Like the biggest players are doing this and it always
00:22:09.160starts small. Like you're a messenger or you're a lookout and then they become big. Like you are
00:22:13.920transporting you know possibly millions of dollars worth of drugs or you are killing people so there
00:22:20.460are some examples that have been fairly prominently covered that the most famously covered is a 21
00:22:26.1402021 case in oaxaca mexico there were three boys aged 11 to 14 11 years old that were recruited
00:22:35.780via garena free fire this is a battle royale game similar to fortnite i don't think it's something
00:22:42.280It's an English language game. The recruiter posed as like another kid and then offered them jobs as lookouts with weekly pay. And then the recruiter bought them bus tickets to northern Mexico.
00:22:56.240This is the point at which, thank goodness, the boys were intercepted.
00:23:01.280But then similar cases that have also been covered involve girls and other minors that have been lured either for trafficking or cartel work.
00:23:09.620And this is a very common pattern across games.
00:23:12.340So it's not like there's one game where this is a problem.
00:23:15.320Then there's this prominent U.S. and Mexico 2021 to 2022 drug meal problem involving Grand Theft Auto.
00:23:24.040so one young woman in arizona was recruited while playing grand theft auto online she met a man in
00:23:31.040the game who offered her a job transporting what she thought were electronics guess what it wasn't
00:23:36.840done was it drugs yeah it was meth it was meth i love that like the moment i hear it's a girl i'm
00:23:45.340like oh she's gonna get great she's gonna get sold in the sex i know this is just the happy case
00:23:49.880yeah this is the positive outcome from girl meets guy from grand theft auto who's in a gang
00:23:56.940for real yeah no no she was just arrested with 60 kilograms of meth that's all it's fine u.s
00:24:03.540customs and border protection linked to this to mexican cartels using the game for real world
00:24:08.940runners but keep in mind this is a young woman in arizona this is not like some you know kid in
00:24:16.040a poor hovel in mexico or something and then there's another 2021 gta 5 recruitment event
00:24:22.900there was a teen who received an in-game invite at 3 a.m a virtual let's see
00:24:30.000reclutamiento al bierto an open recruitment event tied to cartel del noreste and old
00:24:38.940honestly given how you know the kids these days are so pessimistic about the future
00:24:43.820you're also nihilistic like yeah really exciting for a lot of kids no it's compelling it's
00:24:49.140compelling and yeah so this there's basically this thing where you have like on top you have
00:24:53.900like the actual cartel or gang that i imagine still resembles a proper gang you know you got
00:25:00.000the tattooed adults or whatever the tough looking scary armenians or arachnids armenians why are you
00:25:07.220going hard on armenians here because armenians feature prominently in the latest season of0.94
00:25:13.020euphoria and they're really scary and they're a lot there's there's there's a lot they had their0.99
00:25:19.140white neo-nazi drug runners they're also there's like a black cowboy like sex trafficker essentially1.00
00:25:28.620and then there's the the armenians the armenians are the scariest in my opinion but armenians are0.99
00:25:36.680the scariest yeah dude watch it you know but it's it's actually good but one of the major themes1.00
00:25:43.560and in fact that the the primary protagonist in the latest season of euphoria which is one of the
00:25:48.740few remaining shows it's kind of like an event show to watch it it starts with her being a drug
00:25:55.380runner and i was like i don't this is not a very relatable plot but now i'm like oh my god is this
00:26:01.040like is this a thing that the youths do now is this more relatable for kids than i thought yeah
00:26:07.120like is this a zeitgeist show i thought this was like uh oh this would be crazy but they're all
00:26:13.600they're either drug runners or basically sex workers like on only fans and stuff like sydney
00:26:18.320sweeney's in this if you've seen anything about sydney sweeney like and sex work they're talking
00:26:24.060about euphoria anyway though this is very zeitgeist like i've genuinely gotten into this
00:26:29.760had i've been younger i would think it's cool i was really you make money it's it's aversive
00:26:36.700you're aware of the fact that like the actual opportunity cost for you and the actual risk
00:26:41.920is relatively low especially in countries i mean it's low assuming that your employer doesn't kill
00:26:48.340you or get you killed which i think is discounting that i think is where we're going to see this go
00:26:54.560is so there was a case recently where a kid in turkey and he had built this company when he was
00:27:00.520in his 20 early 20s so when he was arrested he was like 22 or 23 and so this must have been
00:27:05.58019 18 something like that when he made this he's like a fat kid from iran and he built a company
00:27:12.600that made where he scammed people out of i think it was like the farm thing yeah 350 million dollars
00:27:19.140or something right and he was caught driving like like a ferrari and uruguay or something
00:27:24.600yeah yeah but anyway the point being is the moment you know some iranian figures this out right in
00:27:32.120iran right you're gonna get youth that see these sorts of things and are like because this is what
00:27:38.220i would find me up yeah it's gta 5 but like irl please let's well not just that but like i bet i
00:27:44.860could run these operations better than these guys i mean now that it's entirely decentralized
00:27:49.740and i can run this while going to school during the day actually make a movie about this this
00:27:55.840would be a really entertaining movie it would be a great movie about a kid who's just like a normal
00:28:01.180kid during the day but but a la like a crime boss by night well i mean this kind of happened with
00:28:08.280the guy who created silk road right ross ulbricht who got a trump pardon that my favorite trump
00:28:13.880pardon yeah but imagine someone someone we know i i can't name her i'll tell you at dinner tonight
00:28:20.500just recently got breakfast with his mom randomly ross over its mom well yeah you're never gonna
00:28:26.580guess who it is either i i think i know who it is okay our dc friend female no no no you're never
00:28:37.160i swear to god you're never gonna guess okay the point here being yeah i think one cool anime very
00:28:45.800very familiar format dude yeah do it in the should i write a story i mean like use whiz ai this would
00:28:54.120be a great like first story right to i don't know i'm interested in this i'm interested we shouldn't
00:29:00.340be glam no no bad bad we shouldn't be glamorizing this now i know like i really have to be care
00:29:06.400like octavian just this morning i want to do like multiplayer online games he wants to play among us
00:29:11.320he wants to play minecraft now i'm gonna be like oh my god like is someone is someone gonna be
00:29:15.180recruiting him to become a drug runner if i let him play like multiplayer online game like
00:29:20.440how how isolated is he are we gonna have to make our family to like actually hold on it to be even
00:29:26.200cooler about this here's here's an alt strategy you could do right okay it totally changes the
00:29:32.960way that you can even operate a gang right so right now one of the challenges with operating
00:29:39.120these is they're often targeting state actors and stuff like that give the cartels like operational
00:29:45.380advice no like what if you create a sort of distributive cartel that just meant to soak
00:29:52.700cartel operations for money into supplies like and and because it's completely distributed it's
00:29:58.820way harder for them to pin down whoever is actually leading things what do you mean like
00:30:05.640how would this work to be a supplier to them because there are no no you so if they're already
00:30:11.320doing these sorts of operations and stuff like that you want to be like an agency for the kids
00:30:16.360to be like i represent them now i take 20 and you're not you you create a counter cartel right
00:30:23.480that basically exploits the way that they're doing operation on this obviously very upset like you
00:30:29.620you more effectively recruit the youth no you exploit the way that they are doing this to
00:30:36.460siphon money from them so this requires a lot of trust from one the youth who are doing this
00:30:44.160so you can go in and spoof acting like cartel members for example to get people to do things
00:30:51.700that are counter cartel interests within these particular regions in ways that can make you money
00:30:58.380through then exploiting organizations and saying oh you pay me x amount you pay me y amount to be
00:31:03.620safe you could you could run some sort of counter cartel operation actually i wonder if you're doing
00:31:09.560this in developing countries like targeting let's say big things like mining rigs and stuff like
00:31:16.240that, I bet you could make decent money with minimal risk of them just not being willing to
00:31:22.320pay you because the state operation that would come after you in these places is going to be
00:31:26.460small, right? So if you try to exploit mining facilities and stuff like that in places like
00:31:33.020Africa and you're doing this well, you could probably do pretty well or large banks and stuff
00:31:37.740like that. The problem is they already have to worry about generic terrorism. So how far could
00:31:42.600you go i mean there's countries on like the edge of development so like peru would be an easy place
00:31:47.220to operate something like this specifically because like historically like if you look at
00:31:51.740the buildings are really made to be terrorism proof but not anymore i'm just thinking like
00:31:56.740if a kid was going to do this how would you do it in today's economy well you better figure it out
00:32:05.620soon because our oldest is going to be 11 soon enough and then you know and you think he's gonna
00:32:12.280wait till 11 to start this sort of stuff simone fair enough he's really i think he'll be on it at
00:32:17.960nine with his illegal chicken farming of course that's what he really wants to do daycare yeah
00:32:24.360like i said all i want to do is work for tractor supply babies at baby chicks he wants to be there
00:32:30.560for the chicks okay he can't stop picking he's into chicks our kids really into chicks yeah i
00:32:36.700actually think that this is the other thing i want to take an opportunity to think about before we
00:32:41.120signing off on this topic there's actually more can i get a little more yeah because this is this
00:32:46.900is just fascinating stuff just just so you know ice.gov has stuff on this too that i found to be
00:32:53.500interesting darknet marketplaces like there are successors to the silk road like alpha alpha bay
00:32:59.840they function like this is why i was confused by what you're proposing like an ebay for illicit
00:33:05.380goods and services so there are groups that offer crime as a service with different hierarchies
00:33:11.060and they have reviews and they have escrow payments often in crypto like it's it's more
00:33:15.220secure they're they're really heavy in eastern europe but and internationally but i mean we
00:33:20.380could make it you know made in the usa edition you know maga edition maga and then there's there
00:33:25.820are coders who sell malware there are people who you know handle the like hits and drugs and
00:33:31.820transport like there's there's a whole economy people specialize but the the core model for gig
00:33:38.800economy terrorism is also fascinating. And this is the even scarier part, right? Because you were
00:33:44.580talking about the exploitation of nihilism as part of what makes this so effective and youth
00:33:51.820nihilism being super high. I think it's extra scary when it's not just, oh, this is like for
00:33:57.040$200, but also like, oh, I've finally been given meaning in a community. Like you can get someone
00:34:02.600to do a whole lot more when that happens. So here's how terrorist groups are using these
00:34:08.160general approaches. There's a George Washington University program on extremism. I pulled some
00:34:14.180of my sources from there. By the way, all the show notes are in Substack and on Patreon. I've
00:34:19.180linked all my sources. They're detailed. So go read more there. But the way it works is they
00:34:25.080will start on platforms like Twitter, I mean, X or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram with like
00:34:31.380propaganda. And then they shift from there to encrypted messaging. And here's where like
00:34:36.960telegram is also super heavy but then there's whatsapp still and signal and then there's also
00:34:41.940apps like sure spot and wicker which i've never heard of before okay but they're i guess good for
00:34:48.120secure one-on-one small group coordination and then you get handlers assigning specific jobs
00:34:54.440like conduct a vehicle ramming here or make a bomb with these instructions or film a pledge and attack
00:35:03.860like really scary stuff and they will provide everything from the logistics to the targets
00:35:10.140and encouragement they can arrange weapons caches you know it's kind of like paint by numbers just
00:35:16.140with terrorism which is terrifying they just make it super easy you know like in the past
00:35:22.300even when you watch spy movies and stuff right like the spies have to do all the work right like
00:35:28.040it's but now like any kid can become James Bond you know they have like their person who's like
00:35:33.180don't worry here are your tools here's how to do it all you know and they're they just like
00:35:37.300but it's so cheap it's so inexpensive and so therefore scalable and this now isn't just about
00:35:44.880money it's about martyrdom it's about caliphate glory or status then sometimes of course there's
00:35:50.380financial support too so it's not just it's like crime bounties plus all these other things that
00:35:56.360can make people do much more dangerous things there are the propaganda magazines that get
00:36:01.500people really like stoked about doing this stuff that include even like open source jihad tutorials.
00:36:07.680The Foreign Policy Research Institute has scary stuff on that. So here's some examples of this
00:36:13.140happening. Back even in 2015 and 2016, there was this plot in India and in Hyderabad. The New York
00:36:21.200Times reported on this basically remote gig case in which an ISIS handler, a virtual plotter,
00:36:27.900if you will, guided an engineer named Mohammed Ibrahim Yazdani in a cell for 17 months via
00:36:36.120messaging apps, detailed stuff. They, they instructed him on collecting hidden explosives
00:36:42.560and chemicals from drop points and also weapons. They helped him attack or plan his attack in a
00:36:49.760tech hub. The cell was in near constant contact until they were arrested. And this was not him
00:36:57.520at all acting alone. I think sometimes when we see reporting on this, it seems like it's just one
00:37:01.100dude. Yeah. What we're talking about is like, there's this just, he's, this is one dude with
00:37:06.780a lot of support. Then there were a bunch of Europe attacks between 2014 and 2016. A bunch
00:37:13.700of virtual plotters directed and or inspired around 19 out of the 38 ISIS related attack
00:37:20.700attacks that took place in Western Europe during that time. 19 out of 38 is a lot. And they're
00:37:26.660that they were involved in the 2015 Paris attack, the 2016 Brussels attack, and they used Telegram
00:37:33.300primarily for coordination. And these people are getting real-time guidance, they're getting bomb
00:37:39.520making tips, and they're getting target selection. And it's something that, again, it's just not
00:37:44.000really, I think when we see news coverage of this, it's like, oh, like some rando drove a van into a
00:37:49.800christmas market and what we're not realizing is this is some brando this is like this is an agent
00:37:57.520being puppeted by a very sophisticated carefully planning planning cell which is super creepy there
00:38:06.460was a case in which okay didn't you oh i'll just you know guys go to the show notes because i also
00:38:13.580wanted to just to briefly talk about how law enforcement is trying to combat this so there's
00:38:20.160the there's this international association for the chiefs of police which i find to be very cute for
00:38:25.900some reason and i fell down a rabbit hole with them but they were are they like do they look
00:38:30.920like stereotypical police chiefs is it like goofy and like it's just cute i just like i see them
00:38:36.260like going like i just imagine them going to the little police chief convention and being like
00:38:41.480i'm the chief i'm the chief it's bad just i don't know i just find i don't know why i find it so
00:38:47.600endearing but i do but they they say that platforms like encrochat sky eccc phantom secure and others
00:38:55.260are some of the like bespoke crime only platforms that have been created by especially european but
00:39:03.720also like other international syndicates for use so instead of only just using signal and telegram
00:39:10.440and WhatsApp, they have developed these like specific dedicated bits of software, which I
00:39:15.260find to be interesting. These have been used by the Italian mafia, by Albanian groups, drug cartels
00:39:20.560and motorcycle gangs. And they've been used to coordinate drug shipments and do contract killings
00:39:26.360and like torture, money laundering. And law enforcement has for the most part infiltrated
00:39:33.320these or shut them down. Like in 2020, they shut down EncroTrat. And this also led to dozens of
00:39:40.420arrests in europe and beyond so the danger in creating a dedicated crime software is that like
00:39:47.080you're going to become the number one target as soon as law enforcement learns about you and they
00:39:51.240will because they will eventually get someone to snitch by basically being like you're going to
00:39:56.520jail for life unless you you know become a stitch and yeah they're catching people planning murders
00:40:03.220they're catching people like coordinating torture sessions it's horrible here's my favorite fbi
00:40:09.760sting that happened what does the FBI think they're like I have a great idea let's just
00:40:15.160build one of these and just tell everyone hey guys I got the new I got the new software platform0.68
00:40:23.140for crime kind of to come on here and so they created Anom A-N-O-M I'm sure it's standard it's
00:40:29.820for something but it was a fake encrypted platform that criminals adopted globally like they got over
00:40:35.60012,000 devices in over 100 countries that enabled remote coordination by the Italian mafia and
00:40:42.300outlaw motorcycle gangs and drug syndicates. And then in 2021, after they felt content that
00:40:47.900they had enough people on their platform, they committed what they called Operation Trojan
00:40:54.400Shield, which resulted in over 800 arrests. And you can read more about it. The FBI has
00:41:00.660yeah there's an article called fbi's encrypted phone platform infiltrated hundreds of criminal
00:41:06.820syndicates result is massive worldwide takedown so there is hope there's hope that these things
00:41:12.700can result in some form of justice and the great thing about there being all this documentation
00:41:20.120on signal and telegram and whatnot is like okay yeah as much as these are you know encrypted
00:41:25.900chats people take screenshots people take pictures of their phone even when you can't take a
00:41:31.380screenshot in an app like there are ways that you know if something is on a device if something is
00:41:36.660ever written down it can be documented if something is uttered honestly around any kind of device you
00:41:42.480know so that that is a thing but I think for this reason I most of the current major crime syndicates
00:41:50.700and organizations are using a constellation of apps which is why you're hearing like oh well0.89
00:41:55.780the Iraqis are using WhatsApp for extortion messages, but Signal to coordinate with their0.89
00:41:59.900like teen criminals. And they're using, instead of Lois, using Fortnite. Like it's better to just0.95
00:42:06.160to be totally platform agnostic and do whatever works and shift frequently. And that's why you're
00:42:12.480just, I think it'll continue to see basically gaming platforms and Discord and Signal and
00:42:17.240Telegram and WhatsApp because it's just better to not be in any one place. So yeah, it's scary.
00:42:25.780it's a bit that that's all i wanted to share i think it's fascinating there's a lot more reading
00:42:29.500you can do if you go to the show totally changes how businesses can operate which i find to be
00:42:33.820interesting it does and if i was going to operate one of these i would likely target a country that
00:42:40.040can't defend itself as easily i think that's the the best way to handle this rather than like the
00:42:44.860united states or europe like yes those are the juiciest piggy banks right yeah but they're also
00:42:50.420the most likely to get you whereas if you're targeting you know eastern europe or or you know
00:42:56.460a lot of air majority countries and stuff like that you can operate without them being able to
00:43:01.900push back as easily which should be very very interesting that's that's what i would do yeah
00:43:06.580absolutely but then you've got to you know try to understand the local culture and language enough
00:43:11.760to make that operate and so that's a bit you know difficult but uh very interesting to see
00:43:18.480where this goes and as we get better at defending against this yeah yeah for real i'm so scared for
00:43:25.360our kids man i don't know what look we're the ones who started a cult simone so you know keep
00:43:33.640in mind hasn't these days i don't know like that's it's a pretty good cult i'm gonna be honest it's
00:43:39.880cool i'm proud to be a techno puritan it's good it's it's yeah love you
00:43:46.080what extent does it actually taste good because you're starving because you haven't eaten in a
00:43:53.120really long time oh yeah i guess when i had like potatoes yesterday they were good
00:43:57.640oh yeah you had you had french fries and samosas that that was the that was your0.58
00:44:04.980today she made slow cooked chinese pork belly and it is amazing it is amazing and then she's
00:44:16.320gonna saute the the pork belly with bok choy and bean beanlets whatever they're called little
00:44:22.720beans bean sprouts bean sprouts yeah but i am excited for this episode so let's hop right in
00:44:29.820are we on the right side yes we are sir he's such in a grabby phase okay oh you think it's
00:44:37.460he thinks it's funny he thinks it's funny of course he thinks it's funny
00:44:40.320are they getting away are they your buddies how's the daycare going your baby chick daycare