Based Camp - The Conversation We Are Not Allowed to Have (Victim Blaming)

00:00:00.000 We're just talking hypothetically and taking on characters in this episode

00:00:03.140 because, because.

00:00:05.480 Yeah.

00:00:06.120 Yeah.

00:00:06.360 No, this is not us.

00:00:07.280 Somebody quotes us in this episode and they're like,

00:00:09.080 can you believe they said this?

00:00:10.020 I was like, could you not tell this was a comedy episode?

00:00:12.140 Could you not tell us was a deep thing?

00:00:13.580 I am saying these are the type of questions that in a hypothetical world

00:00:17.000 where victim blaming was not a concept that was shamed.

00:00:19.940 Somebody might ask,

00:00:21.120 how would we test whether the phenomenon of men physically abusing their

00:00:27.240 wives is caused primarily by the wives or caused primarily by the husbands?

00:00:33.060 And then the other person would say, ah,

00:00:34.940 of you in weird science world where we only care about data.

00:00:38.880 I guess what we would need is a control situation.

00:00:41.780 We would need a population where some women dated women and some men dated men. 1.00

00:00:48.500 And then we would need to look at the level of physical abuse within these two 0.97

00:00:55.040 populations.

00:00:55.660 What are the physical abuse rates in lesbian relationships? 0.99

00:00:58.980 What are the physical abuse rates in male gay relationships?

00:01:02.780 Oh, oh no.

00:01:04.620 They're much lower than in straight relationships and male gay relationships 1.00

00:01:07.860 and much higher in lesbian relationships. 0.96

00:01:10.820 Oh no.

00:01:12.300 This is not what the data was supposed to say.

00:01:15.320 Would you like to know more?

00:01:16.980 So we were like, well, I mean, we're not,

00:01:20.520 we haven't ruined our careers enough as it is.

00:01:23.060 And why would you let someone else cancel you when you can just cancel yourself?

00:01:28.960 So today.

00:01:29.840 Right.

00:01:30.840 Talk about victim blaming and why,

00:01:33.620 why there's a case to be made.

00:01:37.380 Oh my God. 0.96

00:01:38.160 We're going to hell.

00:01:38.800 Well, no, I was thinking.

00:01:39.380 Blaming is one of these really interesting things where I think it started as a good

00:01:44.220 concept for people, right?

00:01:46.160 Yeah.

00:01:46.440 The way that like, don't be ashamed to see a psychologist movement was really healthy

00:01:52.020 to start.

00:01:52.600 You know, some people needed to see psychologists back when psychologists were still healthy.

00:01:56.220 And then it became a never, ever criticize the psychologist for doing anything and never,

00:02:00.940 ever say somebody should stop seeing a psychologist that they're seeing because that person is

00:02:05.000 employing cult-like abusive practices.

00:02:06.900 And then that allowed cult-like abusive practices to begin to proliferate within the psychologist

00:02:11.100 community because you are not allowed to tell somebody anymore.

00:02:14.560 Hey, actually the things that psychologists are doing with you are actually very similar

00:02:18.760 to cult tactics, building dependence.

00:02:20.800 You need to get away from them.

00:02:22.260 How dare you shame me for seeing a psychologist?

00:02:25.160 It's always valid to go to somebody who affirms anything I do, no matter the cost of myself

00:02:31.900 or my community.

00:02:32.640 That's what I need, my affirmer or the person who tells me, oh, you have some deep seated

00:02:38.100 thing in your past and you can only fix it by coming to see me repeatedly.

00:02:41.460 But then the same thing happened to, and you know, that's dependency right there, right?

00:02:45.380 Yeah.

00:02:45.800 And then the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the same thing ended up happening with this

00:02:51.280 other group, which is victim blaming, right?

00:02:55.440 And we're not talking about victims of, you know, systemic racism, natural disasters, blah,

00:03:01.340 blah, blah.

00:03:01.580 We're talking about typically.

00:03:03.120 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:03:03.980 But, but there was a reason, like it used to be too common in the past.

00:03:07.240 I'll admit it used to be too common.

00:03:09.040 People would see a woman who'd get graped and they'd be like, well, you know, look at 1.00

00:03:13.860 the way she was dressing.

00:03:15.240 Right.

00:03:16.940 Um, and totally inappropriate situations.

00:03:19.020 You know, these are women who are going about their work, going about their lives, you 1.00

00:03:21.860 know, who are being attacked.

00:03:23.040 And yeah, super, super not okay.

00:03:25.180 They hear of an attack like this and they would say something like, how could this have happened?

00:03:29.740 Right.

00:03:30.520 And, and, and then their initial reaction is to say, well, it must have been the victim's

00:03:35.620 fault.

00:03:35.900 And this is something that happened in society.

00:03:38.180 Like this is a natural inclination that humans have to want to blame the victim.

00:03:42.740 And so it was important that we had a movement that pushed against this, but the movement

00:03:49.840 went insane and ended up creating a prohibition because like, you know, if you look at our

00:03:55.980 big bill on signalers and people who are status signaling, they realize they can raise their

00:04:00.160 status within their group by pointing out this behavior and others, even when it was a

00:04:03.640 justified behavior, that ascribing any fault on the part of a victim of something, i.e.

00:04:12.140 that in any way they contributed to the probability of that thing happening to them was an immoral

00:04:18.020 thing to do and lowered your status was in the community.

00:04:21.420 Now this is a problem because like, obviously there is always some level of, I did something

00:04:29.000 that increased the probability that a negative thing happened to me.

00:04:32.260 You know, I'm reminded of the Die Hard scene, right?

00:04:35.900 I don't know if people remember this, those things from Die Hard 2 or something, where the

00:04:39.400 guys walking around a black neighborhood was like racist billboards on him or something.

00:04:44.580 And you're like, oh my God, because the bad guy is making him do this.

00:04:48.020 Not to get too personal, but a white man standing in the middle of Harlem wearing a sign that 0.99

00:04:53.000 says, I hate niggas. 1.00

00:04:54.680 Has he got some serious personal issues?

00:04:56.520 Now you've got about 10 seconds before those guys see you. 1.00

00:04:59.360 When they do, they will kill you. 1.00

00:05:01.340 You are about to have a very bad day. 1.00

00:05:03.940 Right?

00:05:04.260 You know, you are scared for this individual in this environment and, you know, somebody

00:05:10.360 comes by and is like, hey, you shouldn't be doing this and tries to, you know, and that's

00:05:13.840 how he ends up with his, I think, partner for that movie.

00:05:15.640 So yeah, it's a good movie.

00:05:16.600 But the point being is if that individual ended up getting shot or injured in that community,

00:05:23.400 you can be like, well, how dare you say that the fact that he was walking around with a

00:05:27.960 racist sign in a predominantly black community, how dare you say that influenced the crime?

00:05:33.620 But even woke people wouldn't say that.

00:05:35.180 They'd be like, yeah, of course that influenced the fact that he was injured.

00:05:38.560 It's the same thing as children.

00:05:39.800 You know, you have a child, right?

00:05:41.040 Like a child gets hit by a car because they ran across the street without looking both ways

00:05:45.580 and waiting for their parents.

00:05:46.940 That is a tragedy.

00:05:48.620 Is it partially the child's fault?

00:05:50.380 Yes, it's partially the child's fault.

00:05:53.120 Like, I'm sorry, that is a horrible thing to say it is partially that child's fault.

00:05:57.580 You can be like, well, the child wasn't fully sentient yet or anything like that.

00:06:00.580 It's really the parent's fault.

00:06:02.060 Fine.

00:06:03.040 Let's talk about an adult.

00:06:04.740 If an adult crosses the road without looking both ways and they get hit by a truck and I'm

00:06:10.020 like, look, obviously the truck shouldn't have hit them, but it is partially their fault.

00:06:16.640 And they're like, well, that's a horrible thing to say.

00:06:18.660 It is, okay, it's a horrible thing to say, but there is a reason we need to be able to

00:06:23.640 victim blame.

00:06:25.220 Let me explain what that reason is.

00:06:27.600 It is because if we don't do that, then I cannot learn from that incident.

00:06:34.180 I cannot say, oh, it is dangerous to cross the road without looking both ways.

00:06:39.000 And then I cannot teach my children about that.

00:06:40.940 I can't say, if you don't look both ways before crossing the road, you may be hurt.

00:06:45.500 And somebody's like, come on, nobody's saying that.

00:06:48.260 Okay.

00:06:49.140 Imagine I say to my daughter, if you go to a nightclub dressed like that, you may get great.

00:06:55.480 And then somebody's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:06:57.840 That's victim. 0.98

00:06:58.360 Well, the crime hasn't even happened yet.

00:07:00.040 I am merely pointing out an increase in statistical odds due to a behavioral pattern.

00:07:05.980 If you go down a dark alleyway by yourself at night, this bad thing may happen to you.

00:07:12.440 And somebody would be like, nobody is actually out there occluding people learning about these

00:07:19.040 risks in a fear of victim blaming-ness.

00:07:23.160 And I would say, actually, no.

00:07:25.180 Not true.

00:07:25.720 Super not true.

00:07:26.920 Yeah.

00:07:27.360 Because I can give that personal example.

00:07:29.280 So I can speak from personal experience on this because I was raised in a culture where

00:07:33.720 victim blaming absolutely 100% was not permitted.

00:07:37.020 But then I also was completely blithely unaware that doing certain things was going to put

00:07:41.840 me at risk of certain things happening or that there were even implied expectations to

00:07:46.020 certain things.

00:07:46.740 So I mean, a lot of this happened when I was traveling and whatnot.

00:07:51.300 Like, I would walk around Beijing or Tokyo, like, wearing a miniskirt and fishnets and 0.99

00:07:58.120 then be surprised if someone fondled my ass. 1.00

00:08:01.220 Like, well, of course, because I was walking around alone as a teenager in a major city wearing 1.00

00:08:08.760 a miniskirt.

00:08:09.860 I mean, okay.

00:08:11.260 There was another instance when I was in college where a guy invited me to go to a concert with

00:08:16.840 him.

00:08:17.320 And it was, we went to school in DC.

00:08:19.480 The concert was in New York.

00:08:20.480 And I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds great.

00:08:22.420 And he's like, okay, great.

00:08:23.220 Like, we'll take this $5 bus there.

00:08:24.820 So like the plan was to just bus up and then bus back and then like sort of pull in all

00:08:28.620 nighter and call like the first bus in the morning.

00:08:30.580 And then like later he updated me like, oh, my dad got a hotel room.

00:08:34.280 So, you know, we're not going to be out on the streets all night.

00:08:36.240 And I'm like, okay, great, fine.

00:08:37.580 We'll just do our homework there.

00:08:38.820 And then, you know, like it, you know, surprise, surprise that like I get to the hotel room,

00:08:44.260 pull out my homework and start doing it.

00:08:46.040 And he starts hammering back screwdrivers and I'm like, oh, okay, whatever.

00:08:49.780 I decided to cut the meat out of this story because it's very uncomfortable to listen

00:08:53.520 to.

00:08:54.120 All you really need to take away is that the situation was very, very dangerous for Simone,

00:08:59.380 but nothing ended up happening.

00:09:01.480 However, if things had been slightly different, it could have gone very poorly for her.

00:09:06.140 It was a very awkward night and nothing ultimately happened, but it did then lead to him being

00:09:10.960 really mad at me and me feeling really like confused and kind of scared by what happened.

00:09:16.780 And like, that's because no one had told me, like, if you put yourself in this situation,

00:09:21.620 if a guy pays for a private room for you and you go into the hotel room and then, and then

00:09:28.100 you, you get into a bed and then he starts drinking like, you know, and I went, I still

00:09:34.660 didn't realize that this was an issue when I came back and I told, you know, like my roommate

00:09:39.320 what happened.

00:09:39.880 Cause she was like, Hey man, what's wrong.

00:09:41.560 Then he's just like, Oh, that, that is not okay.

00:09:44.060 Like, I can't believe that happened to it.

00:09:45.540 It was never like, wait, you didn't know.

00:09:48.520 Like no one said that to me, which is insane.

00:09:52.300 Well, and, and if people can't understand, so Simone, you got really lucky that this guy

00:09:56.540 understood like no means no, et cetera.

00:09:59.160 Um, but a lot of women end up putting themselves and people don't understand. 1.00

00:10:04.100 They can be like, that should have been the most obvious thing in the world.

00:10:06.980 Simone is an intelligent person.

00:10:08.820 You, you guys have seen her as an intelligent, thoughtful person because she grew up in an

00:10:14.660 environment where this view of slut shaming or sorry, where this view of victim blaming

00:10:19.760 was so extreme that she was never saw basic things around expectations that may be set by

00:10:28.060 her actions.

00:10:29.180 She put herself in an incredibly dangerous situation.

00:10:32.880 Yeah.

00:10:33.120 It is not, this is not like a joke point.

00:10:35.220 Like this is when you fight against this, when you fight to say, actually, we do need

00:10:41.460 to victim blame a bit.

00:10:42.760 You are fighting against women getting great. 1.00

00:10:45.540 You're fighting against female victimhood. 1.00

00:10:47.680 You are fighting for female safety.

00:10:49.760 And this isn't a female versus male thing.

00:10:52.280 You know, this goes both ways.

00:10:53.600 Like people who put themselves in very risky positions are going to be subject to this regardless

00:10:58.440 of, you know, who they are and what race or gender or background or educational level

00:11:03.840 or IQ they are.

00:11:04.820 It really doesn't matter.

00:11:06.620 This is about what risks are you subjecting yourself to, right?

00:11:10.620 And we need to understand that risks are not fair.

00:11:14.360 It doesn't mean you shouldn't be educated about them.

00:11:17.060 If you are X ethnicity, you probably shouldn't go into Z neighborhood and do B. 1.00

00:11:22.720 This is something that historically we understood it.

00:11:26.520 It's not good that that happens, but it is good that we teach our kids that that happens

00:11:31.020 if they're at risk of it.

00:11:32.460 Now we have entered a society where you cannot do that.

00:11:36.580 And that creates enormous, enormous risk for young people.

00:11:41.520 But hold on, it gets worse than that.

00:11:44.000 So I'm going to talk about some statistics that are shocking and that allow you to investigate

00:11:51.920 issues that we as a society are told we are not allowed to investigate.

00:11:56.400 Okay.

00:11:56.700 So we're going to talk about spousal abuse.

00:12:00.220 Oh boy.

00:12:02.640 We're really going to hell for this. 1.00

00:12:04.720 We're talking about white abuse. 1.00

00:12:06.280 Worse than that. 0.99

00:12:07.340 Okay.

00:12:08.720 So I, as an outsider, somebody who is not concerned about whether, and keep in mind,

00:12:14.840 all of this is just a hypothetical framework here.

00:12:17.340 I'm not saying this is what I think.

00:12:19.400 I am saying these are the type of questions that in a hypothetical world where victim blaming

00:12:24.000 was not a concept that was shamed, somebody might ask.

00:12:27.660 And so somebody in this hypothetical world might ask a question like, is it women's fault 1.00

00:12:32.720 that they are abused by their husbands?

00:12:35.340 And then another person would say, how dare you ask that?

00:12:38.420 You know, but that doesn't exist.

00:12:40.020 So somebody can't ask in this world, how dare you ask that?

00:12:42.280 Instead, they would ask, how would we test that?

00:12:45.400 How would we test whether the phenomenon of men physically abusing their wives is caused

00:12:52.440 primarily by the wives or caused primarily by the husbands?

00:12:56.840 And then the other person would say, ah, of you in weird science world where we only

00:13:01.260 care about data.

00:13:02.600 I guess what we would need is a control situation.

00:13:05.660 We would need a population where some women dated women and some men dated men. 1.00

00:13:12.380 And then we would need to look at the level of physical abuse within these two populations.

00:13:19.420 And unfortunately, lo and behold, this is possible.

00:13:23.240 Ah, yes, yes, yes.

00:13:24.960 Let me pull this up.

00:13:26.380 Okay.

00:13:27.120 What are the physical abuse rates in lesbian relationships? 0.99

00:13:30.160 What are the physical abuse rates in male gay relationships?

00:13:33.960 Oh, oh no.

00:13:35.800 They're much lower than in straight relationships and male gay relationships and much higher in 0.98

00:13:40.200 lesbian relationships. 1.00

00:13:42.020 Oh no.

00:13:43.460 This is not what the data was supposed to say.

00:13:46.140 Now, caveats, caveats, throat clearing, et cetera.

00:13:49.720 It may be that men are just far less likely to report abuse.

00:13:53.760 It may be that women are far more likely to over-report abuse.

00:13:58.240 But the numbers are very distinct.

00:13:59.440 But that's true in our world.

00:14:00.720 I'm not saying that in our world, lesbian relationships are much more likely to have physical abuse 1.00

00:14:05.880 or that gay relationships are much less likely to have physical abuse or that this would mean

00:14:10.680 anything.

00:14:11.300 I'm just saying you as a viewer, hypothetically, if you were to look this up, what conclusions?

00:14:17.220 And you did live in this alternate world where all these things were true, which obviously isn't

00:14:21.400 true in our world.

00:14:22.460 What would you take away from it?

00:14:24.480 But it gets more interesting than that because I also look in my own life of instances where I have

00:14:30.400 seen physical spousal abuse, which have been rare, but I know really only one in my larger

00:14:35.940 friend network.

00:14:36.680 Oh, no, two.

00:14:37.860 One, it was because his partner kept stealing things from people and he kept telling her

00:14:43.100 to stop doing it and she didn't listen.

00:14:45.120 And then he became physically abusive.

00:14:47.540 The other, the partner, this guy was living on a very tight budget, like they were not doing

00:14:51.680 well financially.

00:14:52.420 And she went out and splurged on designer purses without his permission.

00:14:57.460 And he had asked her to not do that before.

00:15:00.040 And sometimes I wonder, obviously, these are all hypothetical situations that didn't really

00:15:04.460 happen and I'm not discussing my real opinions here, but these are all situations where I

00:15:08.940 just have to wonder, like, I don't abuse Simone because when I went into a relationship, I

00:15:15.780 vetted for a partner who I respected and who I admired and whose actions I always knew were

00:15:22.480 motivated by a desire to make the world a better place and to achieve her personal value

00:15:29.400 set, which I align with.

00:15:31.640 And if my partner, if Simone ever strayed from that path, I would leave her.

00:15:36.000 If she ever started acting in a way that was optimized around personal vanity or hurt other

00:15:40.500 members of the family, I would leave her before I would ever physically abuse her. 0.78

00:15:44.640 However, there are certain people in this world who just are unwilling to do that.

00:15:51.580 They are primarily concerned about themselves and their vanity and how they signal to the world.

00:15:56.560 And there are certain other people in the world who can't get a better partner than that.

00:16:01.300 And I think that this is partially why physical abuse happens was in relationships where people

00:16:07.700 are on the lower quality of partner.

00:16:11.860 Well, and I think often there is abuse on multiple ends.

00:16:17.280 Sometimes one partner physically abuses after being emotionally abused.

00:16:22.780 I would also, I mean, I personally would see it if I had very limited funds and somebody without

00:16:31.440 my consent spent my money.

00:16:33.140 So, I mean, I think another issue with some forms of spousal abuse is that the abuse that

00:16:42.140 gets prosecuted, reported, and seen as societally most unforgivable has been triggered by other

00:16:51.440 forms of abuse that society doesn't, for whatever reason, see as egregious.

00:16:58.060 But this is a cultural thing.

00:17:00.060 And I do think that this is a very, very difficult moral situation.

00:17:04.780 Because, for example, you have honor killings where a family will kill a female relative because

00:17:11.260 they feel that she dishonored the family in some way.

00:17:15.320 Which to most people, that would be entirely like, she didn't do a thing.

00:17:19.820 She just acted normal, right? 0.99

00:17:21.980 And then they think it's right to kill her as a result.

00:17:24.980 So, I mean, like, I do think that it gets very, very dangerous when violence is the retaliation

00:17:30.440 that people choose.

00:17:31.800 And often people-

00:17:32.940 Well, violence is the retaliation that people choose, often not as a first resort, but

00:17:38.060 either because they are mentally impaired.

00:17:40.000 So, let's be clear.

00:17:41.740 I think usually when violence is chosen, it's either because the person is mentally impaired

00:17:45.060 because of drugs or alcohol, or they're just generally mentally impaired, or they feel

00:17:50.180 that they have no other way to effectively communicate with their partner.

00:17:53.620 Right, like they've tried everything else and they-

00:17:55.880 They tried telling them, don't take the family credit card and spend all our money.

00:18:00.140 They've tried everything else.

00:18:01.520 And they feel that it would be better to be physically abusive than it would be to leave

00:18:06.400 their partner.

00:18:08.000 However, I want to be clear.

00:18:09.580 I think that this is a minority of cases of spousal abuse.

00:18:12.400 I actually think that the majority of cases of spousal abuse are due to mental impairment,

00:18:17.240 i.e. drugs, alcohol, and stupidity, and lack of emotional control. 1.00

00:18:23.000 But I also think that there is a level of reciprocality to this, as Simone pointed out, 1.00

00:18:28.340 is one partner is abusing the other partner in a way that is socially accepted.

00:18:32.100 And so we don't see that a lot of really terrible people deserve each other.

00:18:37.980 And we're not allowed to.

00:18:39.060 You know, somebody comes to me and they go, look at all these horrible things my wife 0.87

00:18:42.860 did to me.

00:18:43.480 Right.

00:18:43.860 And I know this is terrible because now, oh gosh, this is going to really piss off the

00:18:48.120 red pillars where I'm like, what?

00:18:49.880 Even men are responsible for when they are emotionally or financially abused by their wives?

00:18:54.860 And I'm like, yeah.

00:18:55.740 Generally, my thought, when somebody comes to me, a man comes to me and he's like, look at all these

00:19:00.000 terrible things my partners have done to me.

00:19:02.220 And I'm like, okay, well, what are you doing?

00:19:05.300 Like, it's either something that you're doing in terms of how you're sourcing your partners,

00:19:09.220 or it's something that you're doing in terms of how you're relating to your partners.

00:19:13.360 Because I have, you know, as I've talked about, I've been in tons of relationships.

00:19:16.660 I have slept around a ton.

00:19:18.700 I dated a ton before I met my wife.

00:19:21.380 I never, like, it's not that I never had partners who did things that were manipulative,

00:19:25.840 but when they did, I broke up with them immediately before the situation ever escalated.

00:19:30.300 I never allowed somebody to treat me like that.

00:19:32.600 Mary, you didn't, you didn't expose yourself in a way that would allow you to be manipulative

00:19:36.720 in that way.

00:19:37.260 And I think a lot of this is like, people are, are allowing themselves to be exposed in

00:19:41.920 a way that.

00:19:43.640 And here's something that people will say.

00:19:45.240 I'll also say somebody will be like, yeah, but what was a man?

00:19:48.580 You know, a man can beat you if you leave him.

00:19:52.080 And I'm like, yeah. 0.99

00:19:52.640 And a woman can claim you raped her if you leave her. 1.00

00:19:55.640 I actually had one person threatened to do that to me, threatened to say that I had raped 0.99

00:19:59.900 her because I left her.

00:20:00.640 I think that happens more than.

00:20:02.320 Yeah, it happens more than people think.

00:20:04.220 And then in that situation, you need to be very careful.

00:20:07.660 You need to navigate the situation.

00:20:10.380 And I think that the women are like, what? 1.00

00:20:13.600 A man beating you is so much worse than a woman claiming you raped her.

00:20:18.020 And I'm like, are you actually serious saying that? 0.67

00:20:21.180 Do you understand that you can have your whole life ruined?

00:20:23.520 You'll never be able to get a job again.

00:20:25.140 If you're a woman and you survive that, even if you walk with a limp or something, I would 0.99

00:20:30.880 prefer a limp or even the permanent facial deformation than a rape record on my public 0.96

00:20:38.180 record in trying to live my life.

00:20:40.420 Yeah, it would be interesting to do a poll of like both men and women, like, would you

00:20:44.580 rather live with X or Y, like, you know, permanent rape accusations or like having like

00:20:51.540 being kind of beat up, like pretty beat up, maybe to the point of hospitalization.

00:20:56.520 Well, hospitalization and permanent, like, like maybe a limp or permanent, like scars or

00:21:01.500 something.

00:21:01.780 Yeah, although I don't think most cases of domestic abuse.

00:21:06.800 I'm not saying that.

00:21:07.660 I'm talking about an extreme case.

00:21:08.980 Yeah, but yeah, you're just going all the way to be that.

00:21:10.720 Yeah, to show how extreme it can be.

00:21:12.200 Yeah, that'd be an interesting study.

00:21:13.460 So I just I want to point out two important points on this issue that I think need to be

00:21:19.580 considered when people are looking at it.

00:21:21.700 One is that I think a big culprit in this problem becoming a problem in the first place

00:21:27.280 is that people want the world to be fair.

00:21:30.000 And the reason that they don't tell women that they shouldn't dress a certain way or

00:21:34.460 they don't tell their children that they shouldn't go to a certain neighborhood or they shouldn't

00:21:38.080 do this or that thing is because it's not fair.

00:21:41.000 It's not fair that I can't walk around a city in a miniskirt and not be good.

00:21:45.400 It's not fair that I can't, you know, be in a hotel room with a guy and not have him

00:21:52.640 crawl into my bed without my permission.

00:21:54.400 Right. Like it's it shouldn't it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.

00:21:59.860 And because the world isn't fair, it's just that I think there's this weird like perversion

00:22:03.220 where like we want we're like we're trying to dress for the world we want.

00:22:07.320 We're trying to dress for the job we want or like we're trying to behave for the world

00:22:10.440 that we wish existed, but that world doesn't exist.

00:22:12.420 So that's just one point I wanted to make.

00:22:14.060 The other point, and I think this is devastating, but also something that is not discussed enough

00:22:17.900 that may be too spicy and you may have to take this out, is that it's under it's under

00:22:25.260 discussed the extent to which sometimes being in an abusive relationship is better than the

00:22:31.780 counterfactual that that some people stay in abusive relationships because the amount

00:22:38.000 of resources or safety or happiness otherwise that they're getting out of it makes the bad

00:22:44.480 stuff worth it and that many people are being abused over a long period of time because they've

00:22:50.600 made a mental calculation that is sober and logical and they've decided this is better than

00:22:56.260 the alternative. And I think in many cases, abuse crisis centers and stuff like that don't

00:23:02.820 they make things worse because they're putting women in very dangerous situations saying like 0.67

00:23:09.140 you either have to get completely out of this relationship or we won't help you.

00:23:14.160 And I just want to point that out. Like sometimes people-

00:23:18.460 I need to highlight what she means by this because I think people may not be, imagine you

00:23:22.380 are dating a billionaire and this billionaire is abusive to you. And I won't say that like

00:23:28.440 we have friends in this situation, but like we probably not billionaires, but like very wealthy

00:23:33.700 people who have dated women and clearly were abusive to them. And the woman's like, look, 1.00

00:23:38.140 I don't have a skillset outside of being a trophy wife. If I divorce this guy, he's got a solid 1.00

00:23:46.040 prenup. My life is worse than being abused. And people are like, Oh, how could you say that?

00:23:54.620 And they're like, no, but really think about it. Would you rather have somebody beat you every day,

00:24:01.240 but have, or, or cheat on you every day in front of you or degrade you every day and have to never

00:24:07.500 worry about money, have all the luxuries you could want at your fingertips. And the alternative is,

00:24:13.960 is that you are living under an impasse or in a homeless shelter. I think most people who aren't

00:24:19.860 caught up on this sort of bizarre pride hypothesis that our society has today would be like, yeah,

00:24:26.880 that's better. Or imagine I even reframe the question. Somebody's abusing you every day,

00:24:33.420 but your kids get their college paid for and your kids get to go to private school.

00:24:39.880 What do you do then? A lot of people would say, this is a no duh thing for me.

00:24:45.500 Yeah. And you have to like, consider that a lot of jobs or just like menial factory work that is just

00:24:50.900 mind-blowingly depressing and boring. And, and just, it takes your soul away or many customer service

00:24:58.420 jobs. Like the amount of verbal abuse that some people are subjected to just through their work

00:25:02.240 every day is worse than the verbal abuse they might be subjected to in a not good relationship

00:25:07.880 that maybe gave them more financial security or connections that allowed them to get a better

00:25:10.940 job. Right. Like there, there are trade-offs. And I think people discount also how, how, how cruel

00:25:16.180 the, the world can be.

00:25:18.360 The average world for a, a person without a college degree and, and, and with a college degree,

00:25:24.360 all sorts of people, like depending on who you are and where you are, like just the real,

00:25:28.680 the real world story, you know, when people are like, Oh, don't you know all the terrible things

00:25:34.860 that happened to women who work in the sex work industry? And she's like, bitch, do you know what 1.00

00:25:40.440 I was doing before sex work? I was working in a factory. Okay. I hated every second of my life. 1.00

00:25:46.980 And I then was able to do something that yes, it was degrading. And yes,

00:25:52.940 it opened me up to risk in life, but look at where she is today. Look at who her friends are

00:25:58.280 today. Look at her. Like she could like a lot of people. Well, and I, you know, I think it's

00:26:03.940 degrading by some people's standards, but like to other people doesn't really matter. And like to her,

00:26:09.200 I think working in a factory was way more degrading than doing what she did. What she did was like an 0.99

00:26:14.720 intellectual exercise that was very interesting. She optimized a ton. She learned a lot. She built a

00:26:19.340 platform. Like, I think a lot of it also has to do with like people's personal preferences and to

00:26:24.120 some people, like just like literally like living in a shabby house and not being able to like buy

00:26:29.780 designer bags is, is, is way worse than being in a very bad relationship, but having all those things

00:26:36.500 and like, you just, I know what you're thinking of, but sometimes you have to trust that someone

00:26:41.920 understands what they care about. Yeah. But I also want to go to the A-list situation because I think a lot

00:26:47.920 of people, they see like our culture line, like we like A-list. We'll have her on the show again. 0.97

00:26:51.960 We, we, we think pretty highly of her. And they're like, well, what you mean is you have differences

00:26:56.760 of opinion, but like, you don't actually agree with her lifestyle. Right. And I'm like, no,

00:27:02.580 I actually do agree with her lifestyle. Even if it was my daughter, if, if, if the alternative to sex 0.80

00:27:08.860 work was spending every day as a menial peon in a factory and having no alternatives to that in life, 0.54

00:27:16.000 because she did not have alternatives at that time of her life, I would say, I'd rather you,

00:27:22.640 I don't want you to go down this path. I don't want like, like as me, as a dad, I would prevent

00:27:27.020 this from ever happening. I'd give them money. I'd try to help them. I try to get them out of that

00:27:30.160 situation, but she didn't have a family at that time. She had been disowned by her parents.

00:27:36.120 She was completely on her own. She had no formal education.

00:27:40.460 And she hadn't been raised to believe that she was able to take other types of jobs on.

00:27:44.260 She just had been raised to believe that she was going to be a, a mother and housewife,

00:27:48.400 not homeschooling kids for her entire life. So she didn't even know, like she, she wasn't given

00:27:53.320 the, the worldview that would allow her to even do anything different. So like, come on.

00:27:58.840 I think that we as a society have entered this stage where we are unwilling to see that there is

00:28:03.620 often no better option for many people in the, in the more desperate parts of society. I often say

00:28:10.040 that seeing Ayla's story as an outsider is like, and being like, wow, she's a slut. It's like seeing 1.00

00:28:16.340 the ballad of Fancy May and then being like, wow, Fancy, she was real slut at the end of that story. 1.00

00:28:23.060 And it's like, were you not paying attention? I'll play it here, Simone, because I know you 0.91

00:28:27.240 have no idea what I'm talking about.

00:28:28.660 I have no idea. Sorry. I guess I'm just not cool enough.

00:28:34.360 It's a classic country song.

00:28:35.760 She handed me a heart, she blocked it, she said to thine own self be true. And I shivered

00:28:42.140 as I watched a roach crawl across the toe of my issue. I was going to be a lady someday,

00:28:48.160 though I didn't know when or how. But I couldn't see spending the rest of my life with my head

00:28:53.820 hung down in shame. You know, I might've been born just plain white trash, but Fancy was my name. 0.99

00:29:00.240 She said, here's your one chance, Fancy, don't let me down. There's a lot of self-righteous 1.00

00:29:06.440 hypocrites that call me bad. And criticize mama for turning me out, no matter how little we've had. 0.97

00:29:13.660 But though I ain't had to worry about nothing from now on 15 years.

00:29:18.580 Okay, mama. I understand.

00:29:21.280 Thank you. Okay. Guess I'm not American enough. Jesus. Sad. But yeah, I mean, I just, yeah,

00:29:28.480 I think it's an important conversation and it, this is definitely something that, that colors the

00:29:32.840 way that we do and plan on raising our kids. And that, I think this is very connected to this

00:29:38.020 internal locus of control thing. You know, the, the never blame a victim is an external locus of

00:29:43.220 control heuristic. Whereas the blame the victim, even when it's not the victim's fault at all,

00:29:48.360 is the extreme of an internal locus of control heuristic. So you can only imagine like culturally,

00:29:54.200 of course, we're going to take this position. Like you, anyone. When we're raising our kids,

00:30:00.640 I'd be like, I does not matter if you were the victim or not. You are always responsible for

00:30:04.740 the things that happened to you. And so we'd be like, how can you say that? And I'm like, look,

00:30:08.860 a person who believes that they are always responsible for the things that happened to

00:30:12.320 them in the individual decisions that they make are going to be less likely to make the decisions

00:30:17.560 that lead to bad things happening to them. Somebody can be like, Ooh, that's so consequentialist.

00:30:22.520 So you only care that you lower the probability that your children get graped and you don't. Yes.

00:30:28.880 Yes. That is all I care about. Yeah. Grow the fuck up. Okay. You idiots. I'm so sick of this

00:30:36.200 nonsense and the damage that's caused by it because they are leading to real people getting murdered by 0.89

00:30:42.680 their partner. They are leading to real people getting graped. It was a good sentiment to begin with,

00:30:48.800 but now it causes infinitely more suffering than it relieves. And you do it because you are a

00:30:55.940 justical and you pretend that by not telling women that if you do X and Y, you are more likely to get

00:31:03.000 graped, that you are lowering the number of women who get graped. When that is objectively not a true

00:31:08.020 thing, you are increasing the number of women who get graped because you didn't warn them and you let 0.97

00:31:14.080 them enter situations like the one Simone entered. It is just as evil as saying, I won't victim blame.

00:31:19.960 Therefore, I won't teach a child to look both ways before crossing the street. What you are doing is

00:31:25.360 evil and you are evil. And genuinely, I hate you almost as much as I hate the grapest of this world. 0.99

00:31:32.520 Come here, kids! I'm going to tie you in the radiator and grape me out! 1.00

00:31:37.400 Okay, that's how he grapes people. That's what he does. No! He's the grapest. These kids were

00:31:44.220 obviously horrified. Not that girl. Look, she's totally asking for it. What? Look at her. She's 0.99

00:31:50.980 begging to get graped. Will you listen to yourself? Look what she's wearing. It's purple. 1.00

00:31:59.100 Oh, God. Oh, boy. And that's just a side note. You know, whatever.

00:32:06.580 You may direct your hate mail to Simone and Malcolm at wedonotcare.com. We are very sorry

00:32:12.140 and we apologize and take back absolutely everything we say. Not really.

00:32:16.400 Yeah, no, all of this was discussed in a hypothetical universe where people-

00:32:20.100 100%, yeah. We're just talking hypothetically and taking on characters in this episode because-

00:32:24.800 Yeah. Yeah, no, this is not us. Somebody quotes us in this episode and they're like,

00:32:29.940 can you believe they said this? I was like, could you not tell this was a comedy episode?

00:32:33.000 Could you not tell this was a deepfake?

00:32:34.980 Yeah. Complete deepfake comedy nonsense. And the fact that you didn't get the joke 0.69

00:32:41.520 is your fault, not ours, okay? Yeah.

00:32:43.900 Because the joke was against- Stop, you're blaming the victim again. Oh, no.

00:32:47.700 Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Well, the joke was against the greatness. It wasn't against the individuals who

00:32:53.700 were victims. They were the people that we were trying to stand was this joke. And I mean that as

00:32:59.360 sincerely as a human could. And this was all an alternate world, Malcolm and Simone, in this

00:33:04.120 conversation. Yes.

00:33:07.000 I love you, Simone. You're great. And I appreciate that you're the type of woman who doesn't, you know, 1.00

00:33:11.160 you're amazing. Well, I was different, right? I was the opposite version of this.

00:33:17.040 And I got burned. And I didn't even realize I got burned. And who knows? Like, the stuff that

00:33:22.320 could have happened to me, really, it is very fortunate that worse things have not happened to

00:33:29.920 me based on the way that I knocked about the world with this old mindset. I could have been one

00:33:35.700 of those girls who was like, I'm going to go backpacking through the Middle East. And they

00:33:38.380 subsequently disappear. That's one of my favorites. It's the most horrifying story. I don't know

00:33:42.900 anyone who's ever heard it. But there was this girl who, you know, a lot of people go like

00:33:46.320 hitchhiking, backpacking around the world. And she said, I am going to prove that the Middle East 0.95

00:33:52.120 isn't dangerous for women. Because it's not in a justicalist mindset. They don't care what's true 1.00

00:33:58.040 or what's not true. They care what would be just if it was true.

00:34:00.000 Yeah, they're living for the society they wish existed.

00:34:02.320 And so she decided to hitchhike through Europe, no problem there, a mile and a half in. I might

00:34:10.780 just post on the screen what ended up happening to her. 0.89

00:34:13.320 Yeah, just post on the screen. Let's not hear it. Keep my delicate ears safe from the start.

00:34:18.620 I love you, Simone.

00:34:19.820 I love you too. Thinking beautiful thoughts. Thinking beautiful thoughts.

00:34:22.520 Beautiful thoughts. That could have happened to you.

00:34:24.800 They really could have, though. So yeah, guys, hide your kids, hide your wife. 0.57

00:34:28.960 Tell your kids this. And whenever anybody pulls this nonsense around you, shame them. 0.98

00:34:33.340 And point out that they are contributing to more of the very behavior they claim to be

00:34:37.800 trying to prevent.

00:34:39.920 Yeah.

00:34:41.740 Love you.

00:34:43.120 Adore you.

Based Camp - January 31, 2024

The Conversation We Are Not Allowed to Have (Victim Blaming)

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