Based Camp - January 31, 2024


The Conversation We Are Not Allowed to Have (Victim Blaming)


Episode Stats

Length

34 minutes

Words per Minute

187.43163

Word Count

6,510

Sentence Count

431

Misogynist Sentences

34

Hate Speech Sentences

18


Summary

In a hypothetical world, where victim blaming was not a concept that was shamed, how would we deal with it? What would we do in a world where there was no such thing as a "victim blaming" culture?


Transcript

00:00:00.000 We're just talking hypothetically and taking on characters in this episode
00:00:03.140 because, because.
00:00:05.480 Yeah.
00:00:06.120 Yeah.
00:00:06.360 No, this is not us.
00:00:07.280 Somebody quotes us in this episode and they're like,
00:00:09.080 can you believe they said this?
00:00:10.020 I was like, could you not tell this was a comedy episode?
00:00:12.140 Could you not tell us was a deep thing?
00:00:13.580 I am saying these are the type of questions that in a hypothetical world
00:00:17.000 where victim blaming was not a concept that was shamed.
00:00:19.940 Somebody might ask,
00:00:21.120 how would we test whether the phenomenon of men physically abusing their
00:00:27.240 wives is caused primarily by the wives or caused primarily by the husbands?
00:00:33.060 And then the other person would say, ah,
00:00:34.940 of you in weird science world where we only care about data.
00:00:38.880 I guess what we would need is a control situation.
00:00:41.780 We would need a population where some women dated women and some men dated men.
00:00:48.500 And then we would need to look at the level of physical abuse within these two
00:00:55.040 populations.
00:00:55.660 What are the physical abuse rates in lesbian relationships?
00:00:58.980 What are the physical abuse rates in male gay relationships?
00:01:02.780 Oh, oh no.
00:01:04.620 They're much lower than in straight relationships and male gay relationships
00:01:07.860 and much higher in lesbian relationships.
00:01:10.820 Oh no.
00:01:12.300 This is not what the data was supposed to say.
00:01:15.320 Would you like to know more?
00:01:16.980 So we were like, well, I mean, we're not,
00:01:20.520 we haven't ruined our careers enough as it is.
00:01:23.060 And why would you let someone else cancel you when you can just cancel yourself?
00:01:28.960 So today.
00:01:29.840 Right.
00:01:30.840 Talk about victim blaming and why,
00:01:33.620 why there's a case to be made.
00:01:37.380 Oh my God.
00:01:38.160 We're going to hell.
00:01:38.800 Well, no, I was thinking.
00:01:39.380 Blaming is one of these really interesting things where I think it started as a good
00:01:44.220 concept for people, right?
00:01:46.160 Yeah.
00:01:46.440 The way that like, don't be ashamed to see a psychologist movement was really healthy
00:01:52.020 to start.
00:01:52.600 You know, some people needed to see psychologists back when psychologists were still healthy.
00:01:56.220 And then it became a never, ever criticize the psychologist for doing anything and never,
00:02:00.940 ever say somebody should stop seeing a psychologist that they're seeing because that person is
00:02:05.000 employing cult-like abusive practices.
00:02:06.900 And then that allowed cult-like abusive practices to begin to proliferate within the psychologist
00:02:11.100 community because you are not allowed to tell somebody anymore.
00:02:14.560 Hey, actually the things that psychologists are doing with you are actually very similar
00:02:18.760 to cult tactics, building dependence.
00:02:20.800 You need to get away from them.
00:02:22.260 How dare you shame me for seeing a psychologist?
00:02:25.160 It's always valid to go to somebody who affirms anything I do, no matter the cost of myself
00:02:31.900 or my community.
00:02:32.640 That's what I need, my affirmer or the person who tells me, oh, you have some deep seated
00:02:38.100 thing in your past and you can only fix it by coming to see me repeatedly.
00:02:41.460 But then the same thing happened to, and you know, that's dependency right there, right?
00:02:45.380 Yeah.
00:02:45.800 And then the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the same thing ended up happening with this
00:02:51.280 other group, which is victim blaming, right?
00:02:55.440 And we're not talking about victims of, you know, systemic racism, natural disasters, blah,
00:03:01.340 blah, blah.
00:03:01.580 We're talking about typically.
00:03:03.120 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:03:03.980 But, but there was a reason, like it used to be too common in the past.
00:03:07.240 I'll admit it used to be too common.
00:03:09.040 People would see a woman who'd get graped and they'd be like, well, you know, look at
00:03:13.860 the way she was dressing.
00:03:15.240 Right.
00:03:16.940 Um, and totally inappropriate situations.
00:03:19.020 You know, these are women who are going about their work, going about their lives, you
00:03:21.860 know, who are being attacked.
00:03:23.040 And yeah, super, super not okay.
00:03:25.180 They hear of an attack like this and they would say something like, how could this have happened?
00:03:29.740 Right.
00:03:30.520 And, and, and then their initial reaction is to say, well, it must have been the victim's
00:03:35.620 fault.
00:03:35.900 And this is something that happened in society.
00:03:38.180 Like this is a natural inclination that humans have to want to blame the victim.
00:03:42.740 And so it was important that we had a movement that pushed against this, but the movement
00:03:49.840 went insane and ended up creating a prohibition because like, you know, if you look at our
00:03:55.980 big bill on signalers and people who are status signaling, they realize they can raise their
00:04:00.160 status within their group by pointing out this behavior and others, even when it was a
00:04:03.640 justified behavior, that ascribing any fault on the part of a victim of something, i.e.
00:04:12.140 that in any way they contributed to the probability of that thing happening to them was an immoral
00:04:18.020 thing to do and lowered your status was in the community.
00:04:21.420 Now this is a problem because like, obviously there is always some level of, I did something
00:04:29.000 that increased the probability that a negative thing happened to me.
00:04:32.260 You know, I'm reminded of the Die Hard scene, right?
00:04:35.900 I don't know if people remember this, those things from Die Hard 2 or something, where the
00:04:39.400 guys walking around a black neighborhood was like racist billboards on him or something.
00:04:44.580 And you're like, oh my God, because the bad guy is making him do this.
00:04:48.020 Not to get too personal, but a white man standing in the middle of Harlem wearing a sign that
00:04:53.000 says, I hate niggas.
00:04:54.680 Has he got some serious personal issues?
00:04:56.520 Now you've got about 10 seconds before those guys see you.
00:04:59.360 When they do, they will kill you.
00:05:01.340 You are about to have a very bad day.
00:05:03.940 Right?
00:05:04.260 You know, you are scared for this individual in this environment and, you know, somebody
00:05:10.360 comes by and is like, hey, you shouldn't be doing this and tries to, you know, and that's
00:05:13.840 how he ends up with his, I think, partner for that movie.
00:05:15.640 So yeah, it's a good movie.
00:05:16.600 But the point being is if that individual ended up getting shot or injured in that community,
00:05:23.400 you can be like, well, how dare you say that the fact that he was walking around with a
00:05:27.960 racist sign in a predominantly black community, how dare you say that influenced the crime?
00:05:33.620 But even woke people wouldn't say that.
00:05:35.180 They'd be like, yeah, of course that influenced the fact that he was injured.
00:05:38.560 It's the same thing as children.
00:05:39.800 You know, you have a child, right?
00:05:41.040 Like a child gets hit by a car because they ran across the street without looking both ways
00:05:45.580 and waiting for their parents.
00:05:46.940 That is a tragedy.
00:05:48.620 Is it partially the child's fault?
00:05:50.380 Yes, it's partially the child's fault.
00:05:53.120 Like, I'm sorry, that is a horrible thing to say it is partially that child's fault.
00:05:57.580 You can be like, well, the child wasn't fully sentient yet or anything like that.
00:06:00.580 It's really the parent's fault.
00:06:02.060 Fine.
00:06:03.040 Let's talk about an adult.
00:06:04.740 If an adult crosses the road without looking both ways and they get hit by a truck and I'm
00:06:10.020 like, look, obviously the truck shouldn't have hit them, but it is partially their fault.
00:06:16.640 And they're like, well, that's a horrible thing to say.
00:06:18.660 It is, okay, it's a horrible thing to say, but there is a reason we need to be able to
00:06:23.640 victim blame.
00:06:25.220 Let me explain what that reason is.
00:06:27.600 It is because if we don't do that, then I cannot learn from that incident.
00:06:34.180 I cannot say, oh, it is dangerous to cross the road without looking both ways.
00:06:39.000 And then I cannot teach my children about that.
00:06:40.940 I can't say, if you don't look both ways before crossing the road, you may be hurt.
00:06:45.500 And somebody's like, come on, nobody's saying that.
00:06:48.260 Okay.
00:06:49.140 Imagine I say to my daughter, if you go to a nightclub dressed like that, you may get great.
00:06:55.480 And then somebody's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:06:57.840 That's victim.
00:06:58.360 Well, the crime hasn't even happened yet.
00:07:00.040 I am merely pointing out an increase in statistical odds due to a behavioral pattern.
00:07:05.980 If you go down a dark alleyway by yourself at night, this bad thing may happen to you.
00:07:12.440 And somebody would be like, nobody is actually out there occluding people learning about these
00:07:19.040 risks in a fear of victim blaming-ness.
00:07:23.160 And I would say, actually, no.
00:07:25.180 Not true.
00:07:25.720 Super not true.
00:07:26.920 Yeah.
00:07:27.360 Because I can give that personal example.
00:07:29.280 So I can speak from personal experience on this because I was raised in a culture where
00:07:33.720 victim blaming absolutely 100% was not permitted.
00:07:37.020 But then I also was completely blithely unaware that doing certain things was going to put
00:07:41.840 me at risk of certain things happening or that there were even implied expectations to
00:07:46.020 certain things.
00:07:46.740 So I mean, a lot of this happened when I was traveling and whatnot.
00:07:51.300 Like, I would walk around Beijing or Tokyo, like, wearing a miniskirt and fishnets and
00:07:58.120 then be surprised if someone fondled my ass.
00:08:01.220 Like, well, of course, because I was walking around alone as a teenager in a major city wearing
00:08:08.760 a miniskirt.
00:08:09.860 I mean, okay.
00:08:11.260 There was another instance when I was in college where a guy invited me to go to a concert with
00:08:16.840 him.
00:08:17.320 And it was, we went to school in DC.
00:08:19.480 The concert was in New York.
00:08:20.480 And I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds great.
00:08:22.420 And he's like, okay, great.
00:08:23.220 Like, we'll take this $5 bus there.
00:08:24.820 So like the plan was to just bus up and then bus back and then like sort of pull in all
00:08:28.620 nighter and call like the first bus in the morning.
00:08:30.580 And then like later he updated me like, oh, my dad got a hotel room.
00:08:34.280 So, you know, we're not going to be out on the streets all night.
00:08:36.240 And I'm like, okay, great, fine.
00:08:37.580 We'll just do our homework there.
00:08:38.820 And then, you know, like it, you know, surprise, surprise that like I get to the hotel room,
00:08:44.260 pull out my homework and start doing it.
00:08:46.040 And he starts hammering back screwdrivers and I'm like, oh, okay, whatever.
00:08:49.780 I decided to cut the meat out of this story because it's very uncomfortable to listen
00:08:53.520 to.
00:08:54.120 All you really need to take away is that the situation was very, very dangerous for Simone,
00:08:59.380 but nothing ended up happening.
00:09:01.480 However, if things had been slightly different, it could have gone very poorly for her.
00:09:06.140 It was a very awkward night and nothing ultimately happened, but it did then lead to him being
00:09:10.960 really mad at me and me feeling really like confused and kind of scared by what happened.
00:09:16.780 And like, that's because no one had told me, like, if you put yourself in this situation,
00:09:21.620 if a guy pays for a private room for you and you go into the hotel room and then, and then
00:09:28.100 you, you get into a bed and then he starts drinking like, you know, and I went, I still
00:09:34.660 didn't realize that this was an issue when I came back and I told, you know, like my roommate
00:09:39.320 what happened.
00:09:39.880 Cause she was like, Hey man, what's wrong.
00:09:41.560 Then he's just like, Oh, that, that is not okay.
00:09:44.060 Like, I can't believe that happened to it.
00:09:45.540 It was never like, wait, you didn't know.
00:09:48.520 Like no one said that to me, which is insane.
00:09:52.300 Well, and, and if people can't understand, so Simone, you got really lucky that this guy
00:09:56.540 understood like no means no, et cetera.
00:09:59.160 Um, but a lot of women end up putting themselves and people don't understand.
00:10:04.100 They can be like, that should have been the most obvious thing in the world.
00:10:06.980 Simone is an intelligent person.
00:10:08.820 You, you guys have seen her as an intelligent, thoughtful person because she grew up in an
00:10:14.660 environment where this view of slut shaming or sorry, where this view of victim blaming
00:10:19.760 was so extreme that she was never saw basic things around expectations that may be set by
00:10:28.060 her actions.
00:10:29.180 She put herself in an incredibly dangerous situation.
00:10:32.880 Yeah.
00:10:33.120 It is not, this is not like a joke point.
00:10:35.220 Like this is when you fight against this, when you fight to say, actually, we do need
00:10:41.460 to victim blame a bit.
00:10:42.760 You are fighting against women getting great.
00:10:45.540 You're fighting against female victimhood.
00:10:47.680 You are fighting for female safety.
00:10:49.760 And this isn't a female versus male thing.
00:10:52.280 You know, this goes both ways.
00:10:53.600 Like people who put themselves in very risky positions are going to be subject to this regardless
00:10:58.440 of, you know, who they are and what race or gender or background or educational level
00:11:03.840 or IQ they are.
00:11:04.820 It really doesn't matter.
00:11:06.620 This is about what risks are you subjecting yourself to, right?
00:11:10.620 And we need to understand that risks are not fair.
00:11:14.360 It doesn't mean you shouldn't be educated about them.
00:11:17.060 If you are X ethnicity, you probably shouldn't go into Z neighborhood and do B.
00:11:22.720 This is something that historically we understood it.
00:11:26.520 It's not good that that happens, but it is good that we teach our kids that that happens
00:11:31.020 if they're at risk of it.
00:11:32.460 Now we have entered a society where you cannot do that.
00:11:36.580 And that creates enormous, enormous risk for young people.
00:11:41.520 But hold on, it gets worse than that.
00:11:44.000 So I'm going to talk about some statistics that are shocking and that allow you to investigate
00:11:51.920 issues that we as a society are told we are not allowed to investigate.
00:11:56.400 Okay.
00:11:56.700 So we're going to talk about spousal abuse.
00:12:00.220 Oh boy.
00:12:02.640 We're really going to hell for this.
00:12:04.720 We're talking about white abuse.
00:12:06.280 Worse than that.
00:12:07.340 Okay.
00:12:08.720 So I, as an outsider, somebody who is not concerned about whether, and keep in mind,
00:12:14.840 all of this is just a hypothetical framework here.
00:12:17.340 I'm not saying this is what I think.
00:12:19.400 I am saying these are the type of questions that in a hypothetical world where victim blaming
00:12:24.000 was not a concept that was shamed, somebody might ask.
00:12:27.660 And so somebody in this hypothetical world might ask a question like, is it women's fault
00:12:32.720 that they are abused by their husbands?
00:12:35.340 And then another person would say, how dare you ask that?
00:12:38.420 You know, but that doesn't exist.
00:12:40.020 So somebody can't ask in this world, how dare you ask that?
00:12:42.280 Instead, they would ask, how would we test that?
00:12:45.400 How would we test whether the phenomenon of men physically abusing their wives is caused
00:12:52.440 primarily by the wives or caused primarily by the husbands?
00:12:56.840 And then the other person would say, ah, of you in weird science world where we only
00:13:01.260 care about data.
00:13:02.600 I guess what we would need is a control situation.
00:13:05.660 We would need a population where some women dated women and some men dated men.
00:13:12.380 And then we would need to look at the level of physical abuse within these two populations.
00:13:19.420 And unfortunately, lo and behold, this is possible.
00:13:23.240 Ah, yes, yes, yes.
00:13:24.960 Let me pull this up.
00:13:26.380 Okay.
00:13:27.120 What are the physical abuse rates in lesbian relationships?
00:13:30.160 What are the physical abuse rates in male gay relationships?
00:13:33.960 Oh, oh no.
00:13:35.800 They're much lower than in straight relationships and male gay relationships and much higher in
00:13:40.200 lesbian relationships.
00:13:42.020 Oh no.
00:13:43.460 This is not what the data was supposed to say.
00:13:46.140 Now, caveats, caveats, throat clearing, et cetera.
00:13:49.720 It may be that men are just far less likely to report abuse.
00:13:53.760 It may be that women are far more likely to over-report abuse.
00:13:58.240 But the numbers are very distinct.
00:13:59.440 But that's true in our world.
00:14:00.720 I'm not saying that in our world, lesbian relationships are much more likely to have physical abuse
00:14:05.880 or that gay relationships are much less likely to have physical abuse or that this would mean
00:14:10.680 anything.
00:14:11.300 I'm just saying you as a viewer, hypothetically, if you were to look this up, what conclusions?
00:14:17.220 And you did live in this alternate world where all these things were true, which obviously isn't
00:14:21.400 true in our world.
00:14:22.460 What would you take away from it?
00:14:24.480 But it gets more interesting than that because I also look in my own life of instances where I have
00:14:30.400 seen physical spousal abuse, which have been rare, but I know really only one in my larger
00:14:35.940 friend network.
00:14:36.680 Oh, no, two.
00:14:37.860 One, it was because his partner kept stealing things from people and he kept telling her
00:14:43.100 to stop doing it and she didn't listen.
00:14:45.120 And then he became physically abusive.
00:14:47.540 The other, the partner, this guy was living on a very tight budget, like they were not doing
00:14:51.680 well financially.
00:14:52.420 And she went out and splurged on designer purses without his permission.
00:14:57.460 And he had asked her to not do that before.
00:15:00.040 And sometimes I wonder, obviously, these are all hypothetical situations that didn't really
00:15:04.460 happen and I'm not discussing my real opinions here, but these are all situations where I
00:15:08.940 just have to wonder, like, I don't abuse Simone because when I went into a relationship, I
00:15:15.780 vetted for a partner who I respected and who I admired and whose actions I always knew were
00:15:22.480 motivated by a desire to make the world a better place and to achieve her personal value
00:15:29.400 set, which I align with.
00:15:31.640 And if my partner, if Simone ever strayed from that path, I would leave her.
00:15:36.000 If she ever started acting in a way that was optimized around personal vanity or hurt other
00:15:40.500 members of the family, I would leave her before I would ever physically abuse her.
00:15:44.640 However, there are certain people in this world who just are unwilling to do that.
00:15:51.580 They are primarily concerned about themselves and their vanity and how they signal to the world.
00:15:56.560 And there are certain other people in the world who can't get a better partner than that.
00:16:01.300 And I think that this is partially why physical abuse happens was in relationships where people
00:16:07.700 are on the lower quality of partner.
00:16:11.860 Well, and I think often there is abuse on multiple ends.
00:16:17.280 Sometimes one partner physically abuses after being emotionally abused.
00:16:22.780 I would also, I mean, I personally would see it if I had very limited funds and somebody without
00:16:31.440 my consent spent my money.
00:16:33.140 So, I mean, I think another issue with some forms of spousal abuse is that the abuse that
00:16:42.140 gets prosecuted, reported, and seen as societally most unforgivable has been triggered by other
00:16:51.440 forms of abuse that society doesn't, for whatever reason, see as egregious.
00:16:58.060 But this is a cultural thing.
00:17:00.060 And I do think that this is a very, very difficult moral situation.
00:17:04.780 Because, for example, you have honor killings where a family will kill a female relative because
00:17:11.260 they feel that she dishonored the family in some way.
00:17:15.320 Which to most people, that would be entirely like, she didn't do a thing.
00:17:19.820 She just acted normal, right?
00:17:21.980 And then they think it's right to kill her as a result.
00:17:24.980 So, I mean, like, I do think that it gets very, very dangerous when violence is the retaliation
00:17:30.440 that people choose.
00:17:31.800 And often people-
00:17:32.940 Well, violence is the retaliation that people choose, often not as a first resort, but
00:17:38.060 either because they are mentally impaired.
00:17:40.000 So, let's be clear.
00:17:41.740 I think usually when violence is chosen, it's either because the person is mentally impaired
00:17:45.060 because of drugs or alcohol, or they're just generally mentally impaired, or they feel
00:17:50.180 that they have no other way to effectively communicate with their partner.
00:17:53.620 Right, like they've tried everything else and they-
00:17:55.880 They tried telling them, don't take the family credit card and spend all our money.
00:18:00.140 They've tried everything else.
00:18:01.520 And they feel that it would be better to be physically abusive than it would be to leave
00:18:06.400 their partner.
00:18:08.000 However, I want to be clear.
00:18:09.580 I think that this is a minority of cases of spousal abuse.
00:18:12.400 I actually think that the majority of cases of spousal abuse are due to mental impairment,
00:18:17.240 i.e. drugs, alcohol, and stupidity, and lack of emotional control.
00:18:23.000 But I also think that there is a level of reciprocality to this, as Simone pointed out,
00:18:28.340 is one partner is abusing the other partner in a way that is socially accepted.
00:18:32.100 And so we don't see that a lot of really terrible people deserve each other.
00:18:37.980 And we're not allowed to.
00:18:39.060 You know, somebody comes to me and they go, look at all these horrible things my wife
00:18:42.860 did to me.
00:18:43.480 Right.
00:18:43.860 And I know this is terrible because now, oh gosh, this is going to really piss off the
00:18:48.120 red pillars where I'm like, what?
00:18:49.880 Even men are responsible for when they are emotionally or financially abused by their wives?
00:18:54.860 And I'm like, yeah.
00:18:55.740 Generally, my thought, when somebody comes to me, a man comes to me and he's like, look at all these
00:19:00.000 terrible things my partners have done to me.
00:19:02.220 And I'm like, okay, well, what are you doing?
00:19:05.300 Like, it's either something that you're doing in terms of how you're sourcing your partners,
00:19:09.220 or it's something that you're doing in terms of how you're relating to your partners.
00:19:13.360 Because I have, you know, as I've talked about, I've been in tons of relationships.
00:19:16.660 I have slept around a ton.
00:19:18.700 I dated a ton before I met my wife.
00:19:21.380 I never, like, it's not that I never had partners who did things that were manipulative,
00:19:25.840 but when they did, I broke up with them immediately before the situation ever escalated.
00:19:30.300 I never allowed somebody to treat me like that.
00:19:32.600 Mary, you didn't, you didn't expose yourself in a way that would allow you to be manipulative
00:19:36.720 in that way.
00:19:37.260 And I think a lot of this is like, people are, are allowing themselves to be exposed in
00:19:41.920 a way that.
00:19:43.640 And here's something that people will say.
00:19:45.240 I'll also say somebody will be like, yeah, but what was a man?
00:19:48.580 You know, a man can beat you if you leave him.
00:19:52.080 And I'm like, yeah.
00:19:52.640 And a woman can claim you raped her if you leave her.
00:19:55.640 I actually had one person threatened to do that to me, threatened to say that I had raped
00:19:59.900 her because I left her.
00:20:00.640 I think that happens more than.
00:20:02.320 Yeah, it happens more than people think.
00:20:04.220 And then in that situation, you need to be very careful.
00:20:07.660 You need to navigate the situation.
00:20:10.380 And I think that the women are like, what?
00:20:13.600 A man beating you is so much worse than a woman claiming you raped her.
00:20:18.020 And I'm like, are you actually serious saying that?
00:20:21.180 Do you understand that you can have your whole life ruined?
00:20:23.520 You'll never be able to get a job again.
00:20:25.140 If you're a woman and you survive that, even if you walk with a limp or something, I would
00:20:30.880 prefer a limp or even the permanent facial deformation than a rape record on my public
00:20:38.180 record in trying to live my life.
00:20:40.420 Yeah, it would be interesting to do a poll of like both men and women, like, would you
00:20:44.580 rather live with X or Y, like, you know, permanent rape accusations or like having like
00:20:51.540 being kind of beat up, like pretty beat up, maybe to the point of hospitalization.
00:20:56.520 Well, hospitalization and permanent, like, like maybe a limp or permanent, like scars or
00:21:01.500 something.
00:21:01.780 Yeah, although I don't think most cases of domestic abuse.
00:21:06.800 I'm not saying that.
00:21:07.660 I'm talking about an extreme case.
00:21:08.980 Yeah, but yeah, you're just going all the way to be that.
00:21:10.720 Yeah, to show how extreme it can be.
00:21:12.200 Yeah, that'd be an interesting study.
00:21:13.460 So I just I want to point out two important points on this issue that I think need to be
00:21:19.580 considered when people are looking at it.
00:21:21.700 One is that I think a big culprit in this problem becoming a problem in the first place
00:21:27.280 is that people want the world to be fair.
00:21:30.000 And the reason that they don't tell women that they shouldn't dress a certain way or
00:21:34.460 they don't tell their children that they shouldn't go to a certain neighborhood or they shouldn't
00:21:38.080 do this or that thing is because it's not fair.
00:21:41.000 It's not fair that I can't walk around a city in a miniskirt and not be good.
00:21:45.400 It's not fair that I can't, you know, be in a hotel room with a guy and not have him
00:21:52.640 crawl into my bed without my permission.
00:21:54.400 Right. Like it's it shouldn't it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.
00:21:59.860 And because the world isn't fair, it's just that I think there's this weird like perversion
00:22:03.220 where like we want we're like we're trying to dress for the world we want.
00:22:07.320 We're trying to dress for the job we want or like we're trying to behave for the world
00:22:10.440 that we wish existed, but that world doesn't exist.
00:22:12.420 So that's just one point I wanted to make.
00:22:14.060 The other point, and I think this is devastating, but also something that is not discussed enough
00:22:17.900 that may be too spicy and you may have to take this out, is that it's under it's under
00:22:25.260 discussed the extent to which sometimes being in an abusive relationship is better than the
00:22:31.780 counterfactual that that some people stay in abusive relationships because the amount
00:22:38.000 of resources or safety or happiness otherwise that they're getting out of it makes the bad
00:22:44.480 stuff worth it and that many people are being abused over a long period of time because they've
00:22:50.600 made a mental calculation that is sober and logical and they've decided this is better than
00:22:56.260 the alternative. And I think in many cases, abuse crisis centers and stuff like that don't
00:23:02.820 they make things worse because they're putting women in very dangerous situations saying like
00:23:09.140 you either have to get completely out of this relationship or we won't help you.
00:23:14.160 And I just want to point that out. Like sometimes people-
00:23:18.460 I need to highlight what she means by this because I think people may not be, imagine you
00:23:22.380 are dating a billionaire and this billionaire is abusive to you. And I won't say that like
00:23:28.440 we have friends in this situation, but like we probably not billionaires, but like very wealthy
00:23:33.700 people who have dated women and clearly were abusive to them. And the woman's like, look,
00:23:38.140 I don't have a skillset outside of being a trophy wife. If I divorce this guy, he's got a solid
00:23:46.040 prenup. My life is worse than being abused. And people are like, Oh, how could you say that?
00:23:54.620 And they're like, no, but really think about it. Would you rather have somebody beat you every day,
00:24:01.240 but have, or, or cheat on you every day in front of you or degrade you every day and have to never
00:24:07.500 worry about money, have all the luxuries you could want at your fingertips. And the alternative is,
00:24:13.960 is that you are living under an impasse or in a homeless shelter. I think most people who aren't
00:24:19.860 caught up on this sort of bizarre pride hypothesis that our society has today would be like, yeah,
00:24:26.880 that's better. Or imagine I even reframe the question. Somebody's abusing you every day,
00:24:33.420 but your kids get their college paid for and your kids get to go to private school.
00:24:39.880 What do you do then? A lot of people would say, this is a no duh thing for me.
00:24:45.500 Yeah. And you have to like, consider that a lot of jobs or just like menial factory work that is just
00:24:50.900 mind-blowingly depressing and boring. And, and just, it takes your soul away or many customer service
00:24:58.420 jobs. Like the amount of verbal abuse that some people are subjected to just through their work
00:25:02.240 every day is worse than the verbal abuse they might be subjected to in a not good relationship
00:25:07.880 that maybe gave them more financial security or connections that allowed them to get a better
00:25:10.940 job. Right. Like there, there are trade-offs. And I think people discount also how, how, how cruel
00:25:16.180 the, the world can be.
00:25:18.360 The average world for a, a person without a college degree and, and, and with a college degree,
00:25:24.360 all sorts of people, like depending on who you are and where you are, like just the real,
00:25:28.680 the real world story, you know, when people are like, Oh, don't you know all the terrible things
00:25:34.860 that happened to women who work in the sex work industry? And she's like, bitch, do you know what
00:25:40.440 I was doing before sex work? I was working in a factory. Okay. I hated every second of my life.
00:25:46.980 And I then was able to do something that yes, it was degrading. And yes,
00:25:52.940 it opened me up to risk in life, but look at where she is today. Look at who her friends are
00:25:58.280 today. Look at her. Like she could like a lot of people. Well, and I, you know, I think it's
00:26:03.940 degrading by some people's standards, but like to other people doesn't really matter. And like to her,
00:26:09.200 I think working in a factory was way more degrading than doing what she did. What she did was like an
00:26:14.720 intellectual exercise that was very interesting. She optimized a ton. She learned a lot. She built a
00:26:19.340 platform. Like, I think a lot of it also has to do with like people's personal preferences and to
00:26:24.120 some people, like just like literally like living in a shabby house and not being able to like buy
00:26:29.780 designer bags is, is, is way worse than being in a very bad relationship, but having all those things
00:26:36.500 and like, you just, I know what you're thinking of, but sometimes you have to trust that someone
00:26:41.920 understands what they care about. Yeah. But I also want to go to the A-list situation because I think a lot
00:26:47.920 of people, they see like our culture line, like we like A-list. We'll have her on the show again.
00:26:51.960 We, we, we think pretty highly of her. And they're like, well, what you mean is you have differences
00:26:56.760 of opinion, but like, you don't actually agree with her lifestyle. Right. And I'm like, no,
00:27:02.580 I actually do agree with her lifestyle. Even if it was my daughter, if, if, if the alternative to sex
00:27:08.860 work was spending every day as a menial peon in a factory and having no alternatives to that in life,
00:27:16.000 because she did not have alternatives at that time of her life, I would say, I'd rather you,
00:27:22.640 I don't want you to go down this path. I don't want like, like as me, as a dad, I would prevent
00:27:27.020 this from ever happening. I'd give them money. I'd try to help them. I try to get them out of that
00:27:30.160 situation, but she didn't have a family at that time. She had been disowned by her parents.
00:27:36.120 She was completely on her own. She had no formal education.
00:27:40.460 And she hadn't been raised to believe that she was able to take other types of jobs on.
00:27:44.260 She just had been raised to believe that she was going to be a, a mother and housewife,
00:27:48.400 not homeschooling kids for her entire life. So she didn't even know, like she, she wasn't given
00:27:53.320 the, the worldview that would allow her to even do anything different. So like, come on.
00:27:58.840 I think that we as a society have entered this stage where we are unwilling to see that there is
00:28:03.620 often no better option for many people in the, in the more desperate parts of society. I often say
00:28:10.040 that seeing Ayla's story as an outsider is like, and being like, wow, she's a slut. It's like seeing
00:28:16.340 the ballad of Fancy May and then being like, wow, Fancy, she was real slut at the end of that story.
00:28:23.060 And it's like, were you not paying attention? I'll play it here, Simone, because I know you
00:28:27.240 have no idea what I'm talking about.
00:28:28.660 I have no idea. Sorry. I guess I'm just not cool enough.
00:28:34.360 It's a classic country song.
00:28:35.760 She handed me a heart, she blocked it, she said to thine own self be true. And I shivered
00:28:42.140 as I watched a roach crawl across the toe of my issue. I was going to be a lady someday,
00:28:48.160 though I didn't know when or how. But I couldn't see spending the rest of my life with my head
00:28:53.820 hung down in shame. You know, I might've been born just plain white trash, but Fancy was my name.
00:29:00.240 She said, here's your one chance, Fancy, don't let me down. There's a lot of self-righteous
00:29:06.440 hypocrites that call me bad. And criticize mama for turning me out, no matter how little we've had.
00:29:13.660 But though I ain't had to worry about nothing from now on 15 years.
00:29:18.580 Okay, mama. I understand.
00:29:21.280 Thank you. Okay. Guess I'm not American enough. Jesus. Sad. But yeah, I mean, I just, yeah,
00:29:28.480 I think it's an important conversation and it, this is definitely something that, that colors the
00:29:32.840 way that we do and plan on raising our kids. And that, I think this is very connected to this
00:29:38.020 internal locus of control thing. You know, the, the never blame a victim is an external locus of
00:29:43.220 control heuristic. Whereas the blame the victim, even when it's not the victim's fault at all,
00:29:48.360 is the extreme of an internal locus of control heuristic. So you can only imagine like culturally,
00:29:54.200 of course, we're going to take this position. Like you, anyone. When we're raising our kids,
00:30:00.640 I'd be like, I does not matter if you were the victim or not. You are always responsible for
00:30:04.740 the things that happened to you. And so we'd be like, how can you say that? And I'm like, look,
00:30:08.860 a person who believes that they are always responsible for the things that happened to
00:30:12.320 them in the individual decisions that they make are going to be less likely to make the decisions
00:30:17.560 that lead to bad things happening to them. Somebody can be like, Ooh, that's so consequentialist.
00:30:22.520 So you only care that you lower the probability that your children get graped and you don't. Yes.
00:30:28.880 Yes. That is all I care about. Yeah. Grow the fuck up. Okay. You idiots. I'm so sick of this
00:30:36.200 nonsense and the damage that's caused by it because they are leading to real people getting murdered by
00:30:42.680 their partner. They are leading to real people getting graped. It was a good sentiment to begin with,
00:30:48.800 but now it causes infinitely more suffering than it relieves. And you do it because you are a
00:30:55.940 justical and you pretend that by not telling women that if you do X and Y, you are more likely to get
00:31:03.000 graped, that you are lowering the number of women who get graped. When that is objectively not a true
00:31:08.020 thing, you are increasing the number of women who get graped because you didn't warn them and you let
00:31:14.080 them enter situations like the one Simone entered. It is just as evil as saying, I won't victim blame.
00:31:19.960 Therefore, I won't teach a child to look both ways before crossing the street. What you are doing is
00:31:25.360 evil and you are evil. And genuinely, I hate you almost as much as I hate the grapest of this world.
00:31:32.520 Come here, kids! I'm going to tie you in the radiator and grape me out!
00:31:37.400 Okay, that's how he grapes people. That's what he does. No! He's the grapest. These kids were
00:31:44.220 obviously horrified. Not that girl. Look, she's totally asking for it. What? Look at her. She's
00:31:50.980 begging to get graped. Will you listen to yourself? Look what she's wearing. It's purple.
00:31:59.100 Oh, God. Oh, boy. And that's just a side note. You know, whatever.
00:32:06.580 You may direct your hate mail to Simone and Malcolm at wedonotcare.com. We are very sorry
00:32:12.140 and we apologize and take back absolutely everything we say. Not really.
00:32:16.400 Yeah, no, all of this was discussed in a hypothetical universe where people-
00:32:20.100 100%, yeah. We're just talking hypothetically and taking on characters in this episode because-
00:32:24.800 Yeah. Yeah, no, this is not us. Somebody quotes us in this episode and they're like,
00:32:29.940 can you believe they said this? I was like, could you not tell this was a comedy episode?
00:32:33.000 Could you not tell this was a deepfake?
00:32:34.980 Yeah. Complete deepfake comedy nonsense. And the fact that you didn't get the joke
00:32:41.520 is your fault, not ours, okay? Yeah.
00:32:43.900 Because the joke was against- Stop, you're blaming the victim again. Oh, no.
00:32:47.700 Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Well, the joke was against the greatness. It wasn't against the individuals who
00:32:53.700 were victims. They were the people that we were trying to stand was this joke. And I mean that as
00:32:59.360 sincerely as a human could. And this was all an alternate world, Malcolm and Simone, in this
00:33:04.120 conversation. Yes.
00:33:07.000 I love you, Simone. You're great. And I appreciate that you're the type of woman who doesn't, you know,
00:33:11.160 you're amazing. Well, I was different, right? I was the opposite version of this.
00:33:17.040 And I got burned. And I didn't even realize I got burned. And who knows? Like, the stuff that
00:33:22.320 could have happened to me, really, it is very fortunate that worse things have not happened to
00:33:29.920 me based on the way that I knocked about the world with this old mindset. I could have been one
00:33:35.700 of those girls who was like, I'm going to go backpacking through the Middle East. And they
00:33:38.380 subsequently disappear. That's one of my favorites. It's the most horrifying story. I don't know
00:33:42.900 anyone who's ever heard it. But there was this girl who, you know, a lot of people go like
00:33:46.320 hitchhiking, backpacking around the world. And she said, I am going to prove that the Middle East
00:33:52.120 isn't dangerous for women. Because it's not in a justicalist mindset. They don't care what's true
00:33:58.040 or what's not true. They care what would be just if it was true.
00:34:00.000 Yeah, they're living for the society they wish existed.
00:34:02.320 And so she decided to hitchhike through Europe, no problem there, a mile and a half in. I might
00:34:10.780 just post on the screen what ended up happening to her.
00:34:13.320 Yeah, just post on the screen. Let's not hear it. Keep my delicate ears safe from the start.
00:34:18.620 I love you, Simone.
00:34:19.820 I love you too. Thinking beautiful thoughts. Thinking beautiful thoughts.
00:34:22.520 Beautiful thoughts. That could have happened to you.
00:34:24.800 They really could have, though. So yeah, guys, hide your kids, hide your wife.
00:34:28.960 Tell your kids this. And whenever anybody pulls this nonsense around you, shame them.
00:34:33.340 And point out that they are contributing to more of the very behavior they claim to be
00:34:37.800 trying to prevent.
00:34:39.920 Yeah.
00:34:41.740 Love you.
00:34:43.120 Adore you.