Based Camp - June 03, 2024


The Data Does Not Say Spanking Is Bad (Why No One Will Tell You)


Episode Stats


Length

37 minutes

Words per minute

185.65764

Word count

6,991

Sentence count

412

Harmful content

Misogyny

38

sentences flagged

Toxicity

48

sentences flagged

Hate speech

9

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we talk about why we don t spank our kids, why we think spanking is bad parenting, and why it might not be as bad as the research says it is. We also talk about our experience with spanking as a parent and how it has changed the way we parent.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 A really big study came out in 2023 that basically went through all the old research and showed that, yes, I was right to think it was sus.
00:00:10.460 Now, you would assume at the very least they would be correcting for child behavior, right, in these giant samples.
00:00:17.520 I hope so, yes.
00:00:19.200 Basically, they didn't.
00:00:20.980 And they just used a giant sample size to push under the table that they weren't correcting.
00:00:27.800 If you can't understand why this would be so insane and why this would obviously show that spanking had all of these deleterious outcomes, consider our family.
00:00:37.800 We do not do any form of corporal punishment with our daughter because she just doesn't misbehave in the way our boys misbehave.
00:00:45.280 In these studies, she would be in the category of non-spanking and my sons would be in the category of spanking. 0.75
00:00:53.500 And then they would be like, look, spanking is causing more bad behavior. 1.00
00:00:58.500 No, you idiot. 1.00
00:01:00.280 Teen, the APA Task Force on Physical Punishment of Children recommended a resolution opposing all physical punishment. 0.99
00:01:06.500 Although the task force cited five meta-analyses, they relied almost entirely on Gorshoff and Gorgon-Kahler's 2016 evidence against physical punishment,
00:01:15.940 which came exclusively from unadjusted correlations.
00:01:21.400 Exclusively from unadjusted correlations.
00:01:23.880 The task force ignored two stronger meta-analyses that went beyond correlations.
00:01:28.620 These other meta-analyses concluded that harmful effects of physical punishment were, quote-unquote, trivial.
00:01:33.920 However, the randomized trials find spanking has a slightly positive effect.
00:01:37.720 Would you like to know more?
00:01:38.800 Hello, Simone! 1.00
00:01:41.280 As we are now widely publicly known as the abusive parents for our bop strategy to parenting.
00:01:50.080 Bop it.
00:01:51.220 Twist it.
00:01:52.560 Soccer boppers.
00:01:53.920 Soccer boppers.
00:01:54.980 You can sock all day and bop all night.
00:01:57.500 Like, you've got to be-
00:01:58.120 Soccer boppers.
00:01:59.140 Soccer boppers.
00:02:00.040 Oh, yes!
00:02:00.480 Soccer boppers, yes! 0.98
00:02:02.320 It's more fun than a pillow fight.
00:02:04.740 That's actually bringing me to one of the first things that I've really noticed in the few days,
00:02:07.960 because I didn't really think anything about the bop when it happened.
00:02:11.240 And in the few days, in the while since the initial event,
00:02:14.300 I have now been paying much more attention to how I physically interact with our kids.
00:02:19.140 And it's now really apparent to me, like, how rough I am with them normally,
00:02:24.000 when I'm especially with the boys.
00:02:25.920 But in a positive context,
00:02:28.200 I would say, like, of all the physical interactions we have with our kids,
00:02:31.600 is that bopping is probably the lightest and gentlest.
00:02:35.540 Yeah, like, that was the thing that sort of surprised me
00:02:38.640 and made me realize why I didn't think anything of it,
00:02:40.360 that I, like, regularly punch the kids while playing
00:02:43.260 or throw them across the room,
00:02:44.620 and they just find it hilarious.
00:02:47.040 Doesn't sound very good.
00:02:48.540 But aren't we very rough and tumble kids?
00:02:50.660 I don't know what to tell you.
00:02:51.500 Anybody who has worked with toddler boys
00:02:53.380 knows that punching is, like, a cheat code with toddler boys.
00:02:57.200 It's, like, one of their favorite games.
00:02:59.320 And it doesn't lead them to, like, playing rough with each other.
00:03:01.720 I just want to be clear.
00:03:02.760 We actually don't have that problem.
00:03:03.800 But anyway.
00:03:04.160 I don't know.
00:03:04.420 They don't, they wrestle all the time.
00:03:07.480 But they don't play rough.
00:03:09.440 Before we go further,
00:03:10.520 one of the things that I love is the piece was, like,
00:03:12.840 he hit him so hard with an open-handed slap
00:03:15.940 that I could hear it on the recording.
00:03:18.500 And I'm like, do you know, like,
00:03:20.800 the sounds that hands make when they hit things?
00:03:22.620 This is, like, clapping.
00:03:23.500 You can hear clapping on a recording,
00:03:25.300 but you don't say he was repeatedly beating his own hand.
00:03:29.580 It's just something that makes a sound whenever you do it.
00:03:32.220 Not, you don't need to hit something hard.
00:03:34.000 Like, that's not...
00:03:34.780 Yeah, I'm sure.
00:03:36.800 Her recorder probably also picked up the sound of your phone
00:03:39.440 being placed on a table every time you put it down,
00:03:41.660 but that didn't come up.
00:03:43.480 Yeah.
00:03:43.840 But, so, I, I, what I wanted to do with this episode,
00:03:46.440 because I found it really interesting,
00:03:47.240 is in the last episode, I was like, okay,
00:03:49.160 I just look at the research as somebody
00:03:51.700 who has a training in science,
00:03:53.100 and it looks sus.
00:03:54.940 And this is where we were
00:03:56.320 when we actually did our research
00:03:57.740 to decide how to parent, right?
00:03:59.100 I was like, the research looks sus.
00:04:00.760 I think it's sus.
00:04:01.960 Yeah.
00:04:02.140 So, I'm going to ignore it
00:04:03.400 and look to other models
00:04:04.500 to see if I can find a better way to do this,
00:04:06.960 and we'll try different methods
00:04:08.100 to see what works for our family
00:04:09.160 and what works for each kid.
00:04:12.380 It turns out that since I had that intuition,
00:04:15.820 a really big study came out.
00:04:17.360 In 2023, they basically went through all the old research
00:04:22.040 and showed that, yes, I was right to think it was sus,
00:04:26.160 and the conclusions were morally guided,
00:04:28.860 and that if you did good research,
00:04:30.900 which they did,
00:04:31.580 and they did like a meta study on the good research,
00:04:34.480 it seems that the majority of the evidence right now
00:04:38.280 shows that spanking is slightly positive.
00:04:42.040 And by that, you mean immediate physical correction?
00:04:47.240 So, yeah, immediate, light, physical interaction.
00:04:50.700 It doesn't need to be immediate in their studies.
00:04:52.420 So, they looked at both immediate and delayed,
00:04:54.240 but I would imagine from other animal models,
00:04:56.680 immediate is really where you're seeing the positive effect,
00:04:59.220 which is why I suspect they're only seeing
00:05:01.200 a slight positive effect.
00:05:02.500 Just so you can know why we would think that.
00:05:04.580 When you are doing training in other mammals,
00:05:06.800 delayed and negative feedback pretty much never works.
00:05:09.980 So, it'd be really weird if it worked in humans.
00:05:12.940 Just intuitively, it would make sense that
00:05:15.080 if there's some kind of delayed repercussion for anything.
00:05:19.340 Actually, this showed up.
00:05:21.240 Spencer Greenberg, a while ago,
00:05:23.260 did some research on whether or not gut response
00:05:27.420 or intuition is a reliable thing,
00:05:29.980 if it's real, essentially.
00:05:31.620 And what he found was that, yes, intuition is real
00:05:35.140 if or when it is related to activities
00:05:38.460 in which you get repeated and high-volume,
00:05:41.200 regular and immediate response and feedback,
00:05:44.260 which goes to show that basically,
00:05:45.700 you can't train someone to instinctually
00:05:47.840 change their behavior or responses
00:05:49.800 if there is a lack of immediate feedback.
00:05:52.620 And that is why immediate feedback is important.
00:05:54.720 So, you can see cross-disciplinary patterns or echoes here.
00:05:57.880 This is really important because this means
00:05:59.540 that through immediate negative feedback,
00:06:02.100 through something like a bop,
00:06:03.520 you can create moral intuition in an individual.
00:06:06.900 I.e., they will develop an intuition
00:06:09.700 that is immediate and instinct around moral action.
00:06:12.240 I shouldn't do this.
00:06:12.960 I shouldn't run into the street.
00:06:14.240 I shouldn't hit my sister.
00:06:15.700 I shouldn't, et cetera.
00:06:17.480 Yeah, it's basically,
00:06:18.620 in the most important primary source of information
00:06:21.800 we have, the Bop it commercial.
00:06:24.080 You can't keep up with it.
00:06:25.400 You lose.
00:06:26.480 If you're too slow, you lose.
00:06:28.300 You lose.
00:06:29.480 If you're too slow, it doesn't count.
00:06:31.260 And also, Richard Hanania did a tweet,
00:06:33.240 actually before this whole incident happened,
00:06:34.940 that I really agree with.
00:06:36.820 So, he said,
00:06:37.440 one thing I find weird about the quote-unquote spanking debate
00:06:40.660 is that we assume if you hit kids, 0.90
00:06:42.980 it should be on the behind. 0.67
00:06:45.180 Why?
00:06:45.800 Seems to introduce needless humiliation.
00:06:48.440 There are a lot of other ways to hurt children
00:06:50.360 that seem less problematic.
00:06:53.320 Slapping, wrestling holds, et cetera.
00:06:56.140 People have done long histories of spanking 1.00
00:06:58.680 and just how fetishized it was
00:07:00.160 and how much it's a...
00:07:02.660 No, it is, I think,
00:07:04.660 downstream of fetish communities
00:07:06.460 more than people realize
00:07:07.820 because one of the earliest fetishes
00:07:09.580 was what was called the British vice,
00:07:11.800 which was based on the type of ritualized spanking 1.00
00:07:14.140 they did at British boarding school.
00:07:15.880 Oh, with the paddles.
00:07:16.180 With the paddle.
00:07:17.160 So, I don't think that the parents who spank 0.66
00:07:20.900 realize they are doing something
00:07:22.800 that is partially downstream
00:07:24.180 of a very ancient fetish culture,
00:07:26.620 but they are.
00:07:27.340 And it is a little weird.
00:07:29.600 But that's why it's weird, okay?
00:07:31.160 So, I'm not...
00:07:32.700 I know some parents are like,
00:07:34.160 the face is a sacred area.
00:07:35.620 I would never do that. 0.99
00:07:36.800 I would only go for the butt. 0.99
00:07:38.400 We choose the face... 0.99
00:07:39.060 We'd only go for the butt, okay. 0.98
00:07:41.080 Less pain to have the same interaction, 0.97
00:07:43.360 to have the same effect of shocking
00:07:45.480 and reorienting attention.
00:07:47.840 But I need to get to the research here.
00:07:50.040 And Emile Kierkegaard,
00:07:52.500 famous for his very naughty opinions,
00:07:54.180 which we do not endorse all his opinions,
00:07:56.280 but he's not a bad...
00:07:57.780 Like, he is capable of stringing together
00:07:59.900 useful research,
00:08:01.240 especially when it's in a field
00:08:02.340 that everyone's afraid to talk about.
00:08:03.880 I love his sub stack, personally.
00:08:05.700 And he's also just made
00:08:06.500 some amazing reference guides,
00:08:07.820 like how to find
00:08:09.000 the original full print
00:08:11.740 of a peer-reviewed journal article.
00:08:13.800 Yeah, I remember I was talking
00:08:15.220 with someone online.
00:08:16.020 He was like,
00:08:16.160 don't you know this is bad?
00:08:16.980 And I was like,
00:08:17.300 Emile Kierkegaard actually did
00:08:18.320 a great piece on this.
00:08:19.080 And she goes,
00:08:19.400 I can't read that.
00:08:20.800 He's all right.
00:08:21.700 He's officially banned.
00:08:23.040 No, he's definitely verboten,
00:08:24.900 but he's...
00:08:25.520 This is the way
00:08:26.560 the urban monoculture works
00:08:27.700 that prevents you
00:08:28.500 from listening to any information
00:08:30.120 from somebody
00:08:30.840 once they are put on the immune
00:08:33.220 to the urban monoculture list.
00:08:35.320 And then you are no longer allowed
00:08:37.280 to anyone who has interacted
00:08:38.380 with that person.
00:08:39.320 So we are not claiming
00:08:40.480 to have interacted with him,
00:08:41.220 but I think he puts together
00:08:42.120 the information here fairly well.
00:08:43.440 So we're going to go
00:08:44.160 into his piece, okay?
00:08:46.240 So he starts,
00:08:47.240 and I'll put on screen here,
00:08:48.160 all the countries
00:08:48.800 that have made
00:08:49.560 even mild corporal punishment
00:08:50.940 of children illegal.
00:08:51.900 And this was news to me
00:08:53.480 since the Guardian article.
00:08:54.840 I did not realize
00:08:55.740 that corporal punishment
00:08:56.720 was literally illegal
00:08:58.000 in so many places.
00:08:59.220 That is off the chain.
00:08:59.740 Well, you didn't realize it
00:09:00.860 because it was
00:09:01.280 an incredibly recent trend
00:09:03.140 with almost all of these
00:09:05.100 happening after 2005
00:09:07.040 and most happening
00:09:08.760 after 2014.
00:09:11.080 Wow.
00:09:11.560 So after we graduated
00:09:12.940 from high school
00:09:13.820 in most cases,
00:09:15.480 many cases.
00:09:16.780 Yeah, this was like a recent
00:09:18.200 and actually crazy change.
00:09:20.760 And we'll talk about
00:09:21.580 why it's crazy,
00:09:22.260 but I want to read
00:09:23.260 his piece here, right?
00:09:24.240 Okay, okay.
00:09:25.180 So why was it banned?
00:09:26.120 I think there are two parts.
00:09:27.560 First, the academics say it's bad
00:09:29.160 and they point to correlations
00:09:31.280 between the use of corporal punishment
00:09:32.680 and aggression in humans.
00:09:34.220 Second, it's easy to find
00:09:35.860 horrific situations
00:09:36.840 of parental abuse.
00:09:38.080 As you can imagine,
00:09:39.060 the evidence about causality
00:09:40.780 is not strong.
00:09:42.080 How do the researchers know
00:09:43.800 that corporal punishment
00:09:44.820 caused the children's
00:09:45.760 latter problems
00:09:46.400 and not poorly behaving children
00:09:48.200 causing their parents
00:09:49.320 to punish them more?
00:09:50.620 In general, they don't.
00:09:52.160 They just assume this
00:09:53.440 in line with their
00:09:54.260 blank slate ideology.
00:09:55.540 We could, however,
00:09:56.340 draw up a diagram
00:09:57.200 to make things more clear.
00:09:58.700 And this was something
00:09:59.420 I had pointed out.
00:10:00.080 I was like,
00:10:00.340 I bet they're approaching
00:10:01.240 this with a blank slate mindset.
00:10:02.940 That's how they're getting
00:10:03.540 these giant sample sizes.
00:10:05.380 Because that was the one thing
00:10:06.260 I noticed in a lot of the research
00:10:07.820 that people were citing
00:10:08.500 to prove that spanking was bad 1.00
00:10:09.600 is they had absurd sample sizes,
00:10:12.460 which typically means
00:10:13.460 they're not doing filtering.
00:10:15.160 And if they're not,
00:10:15.660 and this is of all topics,
00:10:17.160 you would need to filter
00:10:17.760 this one the most,
00:10:18.960 in part due to this chart
00:10:20.540 I'm going to put on the screen here.
00:10:22.700 So to our podcast,
00:10:23.800 let's just sort of
00:10:24.260 and I'll basically explain.
00:10:26.400 So you go from parental genetics,
00:10:28.360 then through other parenting factors
00:10:30.580 to child with poor behavior,
00:10:32.980 which is influenced in part
00:10:34.480 by the child genetics,
00:10:35.300 which is influenced
00:10:35.780 by the parent genetics.
00:10:37.940 But the parent's genetics
00:10:38.880 also influences bad life outcomes.
00:10:40.860 But then you have
00:10:41.540 the cross relationship
00:10:42.520 with corporal punishment.
00:10:43.500 Then you have poor adult behavior.
00:10:45.440 And then all of that
00:10:46.480 leads to bad life outcomes.
00:10:48.440 And so the idea here is,
00:10:50.000 can you sort out
00:10:50.920 which of these
00:10:51.800 is influencing bad behavior?
00:10:55.420 Now, you would assume
00:10:56.900 if you had trust in science,
00:10:58.500 you're like,
00:10:59.000 at the very least,
00:11:00.320 they would be correcting
00:11:01.180 for child behavior.
00:11:02.920 Right?
00:11:03.480 In these giant samples.
00:11:04.520 I hope so.
00:11:05.380 Yes.
00:11:06.300 We're going to keep going,
00:11:07.100 but basically they didn't.
00:11:08.760 In the giant studies
00:11:09.800 that everyone has been
00:11:10.520 basing all of their research on,
00:11:11.920 they didn't.
00:11:12.740 And they just used
00:11:14.420 a giant sample size
00:11:15.960 to push under the table
00:11:18.580 that they weren't correcting.
00:11:20.340 If you can't understand
00:11:21.680 why this would be so insane
00:11:23.200 and why this would obviously
00:11:24.940 show that spanking 1.00
00:11:25.760 had all of these
00:11:26.680 deleterious outcomes,
00:11:28.240 consider our family.
00:11:29.880 We do not do
00:11:31.220 any form of corporal punishment
00:11:32.620 with our daughter
00:11:33.560 because she just doesn't misbehave
00:11:35.960 in the way our boys misbehave.
00:11:37.720 Yeah.
00:11:37.960 She's very emotionally sensitive.
00:11:40.120 And like any sort of,
00:11:41.340 if we looked at her the wrong way,
00:11:42.760 like disapprovingly,
00:11:44.300 she'd start bawling.
00:11:45.500 Yeah.
00:11:45.660 Yeah.
00:11:46.060 Like that's the thing is
00:11:46.920 some kids, 0.98
00:11:47.660 all they need is a freaking look. 0.93
00:11:50.280 But in these studies, 0.94
00:11:52.640 she would be in the category
00:11:54.660 of non-spanking
00:11:56.100 and my sons would be
00:11:57.600 in the category of spanking.
00:11:59.480 And then they would be like,
00:12:00.700 look, spanking is causing 1.00
00:12:01.880 more bad behavior. 1.00
00:12:04.360 No, you idiot. 1.00
00:12:05.960 Obviously, if you don't sort by, 1.00
00:12:08.520 but we'll keep going here.
00:12:09.560 I'm just giving ahead a bit here.
00:12:12.240 But how can we be sure?
00:12:13.560 And here he's talking
00:12:14.100 about the genetic effects
00:12:14.980 because obviously
00:12:15.520 these are going to be huge as well.
00:12:16.960 And most scientists
00:12:17.580 don't like to admit
00:12:18.420 that kids inherit behavior
00:12:20.020 from their parents.
00:12:21.180 But then he points out
00:12:22.480 that there actually
00:12:23.200 was an experiment
00:12:24.440 that looked at this.
00:12:25.780 So the study was called
00:12:26.780 The Effects of Spanking
00:12:28.460 on Psychosocial Outcomes,
00:12:30.480 Revisiting Genetic 0.81
00:12:31.540 and Environmental Co-Variation.
00:12:34.260 This study was trying to find out
00:12:35.820 how much of the negative effects
00:12:38.140 that were being measured
00:12:39.420 were genetic in nature.
00:12:41.680 And it turns out
00:12:43.020 that it is around 60%.
00:12:44.960 So the majority of any effect
00:12:47.680 that was being measured
00:12:48.440 in previous studies
00:12:49.720 was just,
00:12:51.700 are these the type of parents
00:12:53.600 who obediently listen
00:12:54.700 to quote unquote
00:12:55.520 the science?
00:12:56.600 Yeah.
00:12:56.820 Or are these the type of parents
00:12:57.940 who say,
00:12:58.500 or for whatever reason,
00:13:00.160 either because they don't,
00:13:01.700 aren't aware of the science
00:13:02.960 or they are people like me
00:13:04.920 who are just like
00:13:05.540 really anti-authoritarian
00:13:06.700 and like that looks sus?
00:13:08.220 Or is it,
00:13:09.500 you know,
00:13:10.480 and I'll put some stuff
00:13:11.560 on the screen here.
00:13:12.900 It was the risk of depression
00:13:14.680 was really heavily linked
00:13:16.060 in this study
00:13:16.660 as was delinquency
00:13:17.900 and to a lesser extent alcohol.
00:13:20.980 But so then he says later,
00:13:22.720 are there some brave souls
00:13:24.040 that went against the flow
00:13:25.260 and looked at the causal evidence
00:13:26.740 and maybe even evidence
00:13:29.220 that spanking 0.88
00:13:29.880 might actually be good? 0.83
00:13:31.380 Yes.
00:13:32.260 And this is the key
00:13:33.380 really big study
00:13:34.460 and it was actually
00:13:35.020 a very well done study
00:13:36.140 by Reitman Ortez Cox
00:13:39.040 and it was done in 2023
00:13:40.900 and it's titled
00:13:42.100 Parental Punishment,
00:13:43.160 Don't Throw the Baby Out
00:13:44.020 with the Bathwater.
00:13:45.980 So to read some quotes from it,
00:13:48.080 over the past several decades,
00:13:49.540 the use of punishment
00:13:50.900 as a strategy
00:13:51.520 to discipline children
00:13:52.320 has fallen into disfavor
00:13:53.560 in popular books
00:13:54.940 among many parenting researchers.
00:13:57.140 Other well-respected researchers
00:13:58.740 point out important instances
00:14:00.600 where punishment
00:14:01.980 can be beneficial
00:14:02.940 if implemented appropriately
00:14:04.480 together with positive reinforcement.
00:14:06.280 In this chapter,
00:14:07.080 we summarize the research
00:14:08.140 on punishment
00:14:08.680 ranging from parental use
00:14:11.060 of timeout
00:14:11.700 to clinical use
00:14:13.160 of mild electric shocks
00:14:14.540 to treat severe
00:14:15.440 self-destructive behaviors
00:14:16.760 that are otherwise
00:14:17.740 resistant to change.
00:14:18.820 We find that
00:14:19.880 the bifurcation of research
00:14:21.400 into causally informative studies,
00:14:23.780 clinical child cases,
00:14:25.980 and correlational studies
00:14:27.120 of more representative samples
00:14:28.860 have prevented progress
00:14:30.740 on how consistent
00:14:31.780 mild punishment
00:14:32.800 can enhance
00:14:34.020 positive parenting techniques
00:14:35.360 such as reasoning
00:14:37.120 and negotiation,
00:14:38.360 especially in children
00:14:39.440 with oppositional defiance,
00:14:41.200 which, given my genetics,
00:14:42.660 our boys are very likely
00:14:43.780 to have and do.
00:14:45.680 Very likely.
00:14:47.540 Confirmed.
00:14:49.040 We need better punishment research
00:14:51.120 to help parents
00:14:51.940 because most of them
00:14:53.120 will use some kind
00:14:54.160 of punishment sometimes.
00:14:55.340 And then he said,
00:14:57.000 they begin by discussing
00:14:58.000 the role of the American
00:14:58.920 Psychological Association
00:15:00.040 advocacy behavior.
00:15:01.900 In 2018,
00:15:03.200 the APA Task Force
00:15:04.220 on Physical Punishment
00:15:05.180 of Children
00:15:05.700 recommended an APA resolution
00:15:07.640 opposing all physical punishment,
00:15:09.620 concluding that the,
00:15:11.040 quote,
00:15:11.120 research on physical punishment
00:15:12.560 has met the requirements
00:15:13.860 for causal conclusions,
00:15:15.940 end quote,
00:15:16.800 Gershoff, 2018.
00:15:18.200 Although the task force
00:15:19.420 cited five meta-analyses,
00:15:22.220 they relied almost entirely
00:15:23.640 on Gershoff and Gorgon-Kahler's
00:15:25.740 2016 evidence
00:15:27.100 against physical punishment,
00:15:28.600 which came exclusively
00:15:29.920 from unadjusted correlations.
00:15:33.980 Exclusively from
00:15:34.880 unadjusted correlations
00:15:36.080 is what was used
00:15:37.240 to ban this
00:15:38.060 in all these countries.
00:15:39.280 Wow.
00:15:39.480 Those studies,
00:15:40.140 if they had just looked
00:15:40.860 at our family,
00:15:41.760 would have put Titan
00:15:42.600 in the non-spanking category
00:15:45.900 and Orson and Octavian
00:15:47.420 in the spanking category. 0.87
00:15:49.180 Wow.
00:15:49.480 Mostly,
00:15:50.220 55% cross-section,
00:15:52.560 Gershoff and Gorgon-Kahler,
00:15:53.620 the task force ignored
00:15:55.620 two stronger meta-analyses
00:15:57.140 that went beyond correlations,
00:15:59.460 either by controlling
00:16:00.220 statistically
00:16:00.780 for pre-existing differences,
00:16:02.560 Ferguson, 2013,
00:16:03.940 or by comparing
00:16:05.000 effect sizes
00:16:05.660 of physical punishment
00:16:06.860 with those
00:16:07.780 of alternative
00:16:08.720 disciplinary tactics,
00:16:10.400 Lorenzi and Kloon, 2005.
00:16:12.860 These other meta-analyses
00:16:14.460 concluded that harmful effects
00:16:15.720 of physical punishment
00:16:16.540 were, quote, unquote,
00:16:17.540 trivial.
00:16:18.220 So they had access to these
00:16:19.740 and they were bigger
00:16:20.560 at the time.
00:16:22.120 Ferguson, 2013,
00:16:23.540 or limited to severe
00:16:24.960 or predominant use
00:16:26.920 of physical punishment,
00:16:28.000 Lorenz and Kuhn, 2005.
00:16:30.360 As we've said,
00:16:31.580 in the large meta-studies
00:16:33.540 in the field,
00:16:35.340 they were showing
00:16:36.440 that spanking 0.88
00:16:37.680 caused
00:16:38.620 no negative effects
00:16:40.160 or had positive effects.
00:16:42.280 Now, I need to note here,
00:16:44.320 the studies that came out
00:16:45.760 and showed a slight
00:16:46.820 positive effect
00:16:47.580 and the studies that
00:16:48.720 showed a trivial effect
00:16:49.980 did not control
00:16:51.780 for in-the-moment
00:16:53.780 negative feedback
00:16:54.680 versus delayed
00:16:55.780 negative feedback,
00:16:56.880 nor did they control
00:16:58.180 for the genetic effect,
00:16:59.520 which we know
00:17:00.100 is having a large
00:17:01.980 60% or so effect
00:17:03.520 in the opposite direction,
00:17:04.820 which means that
00:17:05.820 what they are
00:17:06.420 actually showing,
00:17:07.960 taken in light
00:17:08.720 of all of the evidence
00:17:09.620 we have here,
00:17:10.420 is a massive
00:17:11.560 positive effect
00:17:12.700 from corporal punishment
00:17:14.760 where it is needed.
00:17:16.180 But again,
00:17:16.660 this is,
00:17:17.000 and I'm going to keep
00:17:17.400 going with this,
00:17:17.960 but this is something
00:17:18.680 that people should have
00:17:19.740 intuited.
00:17:21.540 Like,
00:17:22.180 just at a base level,
00:17:24.180 one,
00:17:24.540 I mentioned all human cultures
00:17:25.840 co-evolving this tradition,
00:17:27.280 of course,
00:17:28.260 but then two,
00:17:28.880 you've also just got to think
00:17:29.880 about the evolutionary
00:17:31.140 context here.
00:17:32.140 If you have a pre-fully
00:17:34.280 verbal human
00:17:35.080 in that age range
00:17:36.080 where you can't fully
00:17:37.000 convince them
00:17:37.940 that this might kill
00:17:39.700 someone and therefore
00:17:40.360 you shouldn't do it,
00:17:41.540 you are going to
00:17:42.560 partially physically
00:17:43.700 communicate with them.
00:17:44.520 That is one of the
00:17:45.140 options with you.
00:17:45.700 You have the option
00:17:46.540 for verbal communication
00:17:47.560 and you have the option
00:17:48.700 for physical communication
00:17:49.960 and you as an adult
00:17:51.660 have the ability
00:17:52.260 to physically communicate
00:17:53.220 with a child
00:17:53.820 in a way that gets
00:17:54.620 their attention
00:17:55.200 but doesn't cause
00:17:56.620 any long-term damage
00:17:57.940 or any real long-term pain
00:18:00.180 but still is an additional
00:18:01.440 type of communication
00:18:02.260 you have access to.
00:18:03.280 It seems insane to me
00:18:05.220 that we as children
00:18:06.360 wouldn't have evolved
00:18:07.100 to pick up on that
00:18:08.380 in a really intense way
00:18:09.880 and the way we see
00:18:10.580 in other animal models
00:18:11.420 and that we as humans
00:18:12.700 wouldn't have just
00:18:13.400 been doing that
00:18:14.020 all the time
00:18:14.820 in our early environment
00:18:15.760 leading to evolutionary feedback
00:18:18.420 for children to have
00:18:19.880 an evolved mechanism
00:18:21.360 around learning from that.
00:18:22.960 It's just absolutely insane
00:18:25.000 that you wouldn't have that.
00:18:25.900 So in a way,
00:18:26.660 I would argue that people
00:18:27.800 who parent without spanking 0.95
00:18:30.860 when a child leaves,
00:18:31.560 not every child needs
00:18:32.780 some form of corporal punishment
00:18:33.740 but without any form
00:18:35.400 of physical communication
00:18:37.340 with the child,
00:18:39.020 it is almost like
00:18:39.880 deciding to parent
00:18:40.680 to a child
00:18:41.160 without talking to them
00:18:42.200 for certain formative
00:18:43.540 years of their lives.
00:18:44.480 You can do it.
00:18:45.460 You can find ways around them
00:18:47.060 and they'll learn to speak
00:18:48.120 through other mechanisms
00:18:49.060 but it is pointlessly
00:18:51.660 tying your hands
00:18:52.380 behind your back
00:18:53.000 in a way that would have
00:18:54.120 almost never happened
00:18:54.960 in an evolutionary environment.
00:18:56.060 So I just,
00:18:57.500 that was the thing
00:18:59.380 that really got me
00:19:00.880 because I was,
00:19:01.580 they're obviously doing harm
00:19:03.180 in these countries
00:19:04.120 but they're doing it
00:19:05.560 because they first declared,
00:19:07.680 as I said,
00:19:08.180 first declared spanking
00:19:09.020 a human rights abuse
00:19:09.820 then they decide
00:19:10.960 how I'm going to research it,
00:19:12.580 I'm going to determine
00:19:13.200 stuff about it,
00:19:13.780 blah, blah, blah.
00:19:14.360 So this study then,
00:19:15.960 amazingly,
00:19:16.760 after this,
00:19:17.460 they performed
00:19:17.940 their own literature review
00:19:19.580 that I'm going to put
00:19:20.280 on the screen here
00:19:21.800 what the result said.
00:19:23.160 So in the weak designs,
00:19:25.400 cross-section longitudinal,
00:19:27.100 we see that the use
00:19:27.820 of corporeal punishment,
00:19:28.900 spanking, 0.81
00:19:29.640 non-physical punishment,
00:19:30.700 e.g. timeout, grounding,
00:19:32.960 both associate
00:19:33.680 with later,
00:19:34.940 worse child behavior.
00:19:36.360 However,
00:19:36.820 the randomized trials
00:19:37.660 find the opposite results.
00:19:39.340 Maybe even the spanking 0.97
00:19:40.220 has a slightly positive effect.
00:19:42.060 But yeah,
00:19:42.400 so what are your thoughts, Simone?
00:19:44.140 And now that we actually
00:19:45.120 had somebody who did
00:19:46.340 like a huge amount
00:19:47.280 of research on this
00:19:48.160 and was like,
00:19:48.780 yeah, you're right.
00:19:49.560 That like,
00:19:50.180 the research was,
00:19:52.100 and I really,
00:19:53.140 need to point this out
00:19:54.000 for people.
00:19:54.780 Like,
00:19:55.060 when to say research
00:19:56.480 is sus.
00:19:58.380 Somebody's like,
00:19:58.900 all scientists agree
00:19:59.880 and they're talking
00:20:00.360 about a psychological issue
00:20:01.760 and they're not discussing
00:20:02.620 any edge cases.
00:20:03.980 That means that
00:20:04.820 there is some sort of,
00:20:05.900 or there was for a long time,
00:20:07.420 some sort of large motivation
00:20:08.900 in that field to agree. 0.97
00:20:10.500 Look with spanking. 1.00
00:20:11.260 Where could that motivation be? 0.93
00:20:12.360 Oh, spanking is categorized 1.00
00:20:13.740 as a human rights abuse
00:20:14.760 by numerous large
00:20:16.820 urban monoculture organizations,
00:20:19.000 of course.
00:20:19.820 And I think that
00:20:20.840 if you also want to talk
00:20:22.120 about how psychologically
00:20:22.840 damaging other parenting
00:20:23.960 techniques are,
00:20:24.580 that's another thing
00:20:25.320 that's not really
00:20:26.000 talked about here.
00:20:26.980 That's what I was going
00:20:27.540 to say is the thing
00:20:28.520 that we've been talking
00:20:29.200 about offline
00:20:29.920 that I think
00:20:30.900 is really underrated
00:20:31.900 and that I wish people
00:20:32.960 were actually talking about
00:20:34.220 was,
00:20:35.420 and this is something
00:20:35.960 you first articulated
00:20:37.200 really well to me,
00:20:39.260 when you are choosing
00:20:40.180 discipline or not discipline,
00:20:42.120 like when a kid
00:20:42.660 does something
00:20:43.380 that is unacceptable
00:20:44.660 or unsafe,
00:20:45.980 you are always going
00:20:47.680 to be choosing
00:20:48.200 between evils.
00:20:49.120 There is no correct way
00:20:51.840 and it also depends
00:20:53.200 on the situation
00:20:53.860 and the child
00:20:54.700 and your current resources
00:20:56.400 at the time.
00:20:57.160 Are you in a quiet place
00:20:58.280 where you can stop everything
00:20:59.280 or are you in the middle
00:21:00.940 of moving in a vehicle
00:21:02.040 or something like that?
00:21:03.400 And if you choose
00:21:05.060 not to bop a kid,
00:21:07.680 you are then choosing
00:21:09.120 to emotionally terrorize them
00:21:11.120 or verbally castigate them
00:21:13.560 or do absolutely nothing,
00:21:15.840 which could cause more
00:21:16.700 and long-term damage
00:21:17.480 in the future
00:21:18.060 or make them feel
00:21:19.720 rejected by you
00:21:20.800 by totally ignoring them.
00:21:22.680 No matter what,
00:21:23.440 you are going to be
00:21:24.580 doing something
00:21:25.200 that isn't great.
00:21:27.340 No, but it's important
00:21:28.420 to understand
00:21:28.860 how not great this is.
00:21:31.020 To a young child,
00:21:32.600 historically,
00:21:33.340 even fairly recently
00:21:34.240 because we were talking
00:21:34.900 with a friend
00:21:35.600 whose family had a history
00:21:36.620 of having done this,
00:21:37.680 children who overly misbehaved
00:21:39.920 were often abandoned.
00:21:41.840 Or sent to an orphanage
00:21:42.920 or...
00:21:43.380 Sent to an orphanage
00:21:44.300 where they'd often die
00:21:45.240 at a very young age.
00:21:47.080 And so abandonment
00:21:48.100 of bad kids
00:21:49.100 was something
00:21:49.840 that was done historically.
00:21:51.140 And children,
00:21:52.080 anyone who has children knows,
00:21:53.260 children have an evolved
00:21:54.080 reaction to this.
00:21:55.720 When you emotionally escalate
00:21:57.680 as a kid,
00:21:58.760 you are essentially going,
00:22:00.840 oh, I don't want to cause
00:22:01.600 mild physical discomfort.
00:22:03.200 So I'm going straight to,
00:22:05.720 at an evolutionary level,
00:22:07.220 I am convincing my kid
00:22:08.180 they're about to die. 0.99
00:22:09.780 A slow and painful death.
00:22:12.360 That is what emotionally...
00:22:15.020 Yeah, let's trigger
00:22:15.600 that feeling in them.
00:22:17.100 Let's trigger that instinct.
00:22:18.180 Yeah, let's trigger
00:22:18.360 that feeling.
00:22:19.460 It just shows where
00:22:20.500 they develop
00:22:21.200 these arbitrary rules.
00:22:22.760 Make no painful
00:22:23.580 physical contact
00:22:24.320 with a child.
00:22:25.660 And as a result
00:22:26.840 of this rule,
00:22:27.840 they then justify
00:22:28.900 behavior
00:22:29.720 that most sane people
00:22:31.820 would be like,
00:22:32.340 that is a horrific
00:22:33.700 behavior
00:22:35.040 to normalize.
00:22:36.640 Yeah.
00:22:37.060 It reminds me a lot
00:22:38.300 of diet culture,
00:22:39.300 actually.
00:22:39.980 How, for a while,
00:22:41.100 carbs are bad.
00:22:41.880 And then for a while,
00:22:43.180 saturated fat was bad.
00:22:44.340 And what did we do?
00:22:44.980 We replaced that
00:22:45.860 with trans fat,
00:22:46.900 which is a lot worse
00:22:48.020 for people in the end.
00:22:49.460 And I feel like
00:22:50.360 a lot of the punishments
00:22:51.700 that are lack thereof.
00:22:53.460 It's like in Clueless
00:22:54.340 when she's eating gummy bears
00:22:55.560 and she goes,
00:22:56.240 they're, what is it,
00:22:56.940 like carb-free or something?
00:22:57.980 Oh, they're fat-free.
00:22:59.000 They're fat-free.
00:22:59.940 Yeah, no,
00:23:00.400 but I really feel like
00:23:00.980 the lack of punishment
00:23:01.840 or the emotional terrorism
00:23:04.020 that parents are putting on,
00:23:05.880 we'll say non-corporal punishment
00:23:07.460 parents are putting on kids
00:23:08.480 who otherwise would respond
00:23:09.360 well to corporal punishment
00:23:10.320 is the trans fat of discipline.
00:23:14.700 It's, they think that
00:23:16.280 they're doing the healthy thing.
00:23:17.340 They think they're doing
00:23:17.960 the right thing.
00:23:18.480 So they're acting in good faith.
00:23:20.800 They're just causing
00:23:21.720 even more damage
00:23:22.980 than they would be
00:23:23.620 if they just lightly
00:23:24.460 swatted at their kid
00:23:25.400 and said,
00:23:25.780 knock it off, 1.00
00:23:26.520 you little shit. 1.00
00:23:27.480 And so we are hurting people 1.00
00:23:29.900 and that's bad.
00:23:30.700 But here's the other thing too.
00:23:32.060 It's, I can't even be mad
00:23:34.940 at the people who are,
00:23:37.700 for example, 0.99
00:23:38.260 shitting on us online, 1.00
00:23:39.540 sending us hate mail. 1.00
00:23:40.560 In the end,
00:23:41.340 I'm glad that they're doing it
00:23:43.080 because it means
00:23:43.880 that there's a very strong instinct
00:23:46.120 to protect children from harm.
00:23:48.000 And I love that.
00:23:49.000 I feel the same way.
00:23:49.780 I go mama bear
00:23:50.520 if I think that someone's hurting kids.
00:23:52.040 I can't deal with it.
00:23:53.080 Like I will,
00:23:54.220 I will,
00:23:54.640 but, and they think
00:23:55.380 we're hurting kids
00:23:55.920 because the media is framing it
00:23:56.980 like, again,
00:23:57.460 you backhanded Torsten
00:23:58.420 and he flew against a wall.
00:23:59.500 They're not being like,
00:24:00.280 oh, he lightly swatted.
00:24:01.400 They do say that in the media.
00:24:03.120 And in most of the articles
00:24:04.340 that re-quote,
00:24:05.040 they do say that.
00:24:05.800 It's just not the way
00:24:06.360 people are interpreting it.
00:24:07.420 Yeah.
00:24:07.520 They're interpreting it
00:24:08.320 in the least charitable way.
00:24:09.920 Because they want to,
00:24:11.300 they don't like our other ideas.
00:24:12.960 They don't like
00:24:13.560 what we're forcing them
00:24:14.340 to recognize about themselves.
00:24:15.800 They want to.
00:24:16.200 But if you believe that,
00:24:17.360 you should be really angry at us.
00:24:19.160 If you believe
00:24:19.720 that we're actually
00:24:20.400 abusing our children,
00:24:21.360 I am glad that people
00:24:22.500 hate us, right?
00:24:23.540 I think that you are
00:24:25.260 misunderstanding their motivations
00:24:26.900 because we've seen it
00:24:28.420 in the other things
00:24:28.980 they accuse us of.
00:24:29.980 And I don't think
00:24:30.600 anybody honestly reads it.
00:24:31.760 Oh, yeah.
00:24:32.200 Like the fact that we're like,
00:24:33.780 people assume that we're
00:24:36.160 Nazi, racist, eugenicist, 0.97
00:24:38.180 monsters, who, I don't know. 1.00
00:24:40.040 Yeah, so I think
00:24:40.820 what you're missing, Simone,
00:24:42.180 is your overly kind
00:24:44.080 interpretation of people
00:24:45.380 leads you to miss
00:24:46.760 what's really motivating
00:24:47.540 their action.
00:24:48.380 They don't like the truth
00:24:49.720 that we're forcing them
00:24:50.680 to confront,
00:24:52.180 which that piece
00:24:53.200 is really good with.
00:24:54.180 It lays out the hard truths
00:24:55.720 of what they're doing,
00:24:57.160 that they're victimizing
00:24:58.340 developing countries
00:24:59.160 which are dealing
00:24:59.660 with their own problems
00:25:01.500 by outsourcing
00:25:02.680 our fertility problem
00:25:03.760 to those countries
00:25:04.820 by taking their residence.
00:25:06.300 And they're like,
00:25:06.780 I don't want to deal with this.
00:25:07.680 Or even with the slap
00:25:08.680 where people would
00:25:09.280 just get freaked out.
00:25:10.360 Or I'd be like,
00:25:10.680 if you're calling people
00:25:11.400 who practice corporal punishment
00:25:12.420 like inhuman monsters,
00:25:13.580 keep in mind by that 2011 study, 0.97
00:25:15.600 89% of Black families
00:25:17.040 in the United States 0.95
00:25:17.920 practice corporal punishment.
00:25:19.800 And then they're like,
00:25:20.580 what, you can't, you.
00:25:21.860 How could she slap?
00:25:23.060 How could she slap?
00:25:24.500 Yeah, we'll have that.
00:25:25.260 Yeah, you,
00:25:26.320 what I liked about the responses
00:25:28.280 we got to that statement
00:25:29.340 was like, you can't say,
00:25:30.840 ah, ooh, ah, ah.
00:25:32.760 It was like pure progressive
00:25:34.360 like brain fire
00:25:35.440 because they realized
00:25:36.840 that I was right
00:25:37.880 that they had just said
00:25:39.580 something racist
00:25:40.340 and they were on the racist
00:25:41.660 side of this argument.
00:25:42.520 I'm just trying to bright side this.
00:25:44.160 I'm just trying to say
00:25:45.180 we can be united
00:25:46.080 and caring about children.
00:25:48.140 And I don't think so.
00:25:49.600 You don't think
00:25:51.000 they care about kids?
00:25:52.320 No, I think it's a bad instinct
00:25:53.800 to focus on other people's kids
00:25:55.820 because then you always lead
00:25:57.860 to cultural imperialism.
00:25:58.980 You're like, oh.
00:25:59.560 Cultural imperialism.
00:26:00.580 We need to use that more.
00:26:01.920 That's fantastic.
00:26:02.300 I mean, it's what it is.
00:26:03.880 It's how can they
00:26:04.680 circumcise their kids?
00:26:05.740 Don't they know
00:26:06.200 that hurts their kids?
00:26:07.500 And I'm like, no,
00:26:08.620 it's their cultural practice.
00:26:09.940 They get to choose it.
00:26:10.860 They had it chosen for them.
00:26:12.020 Who better to choose
00:26:12.760 to circumcise their kids 0.72
00:26:13.640 than somebody who lived with it?
00:26:15.240 You as an external person
00:26:16.760 should have no right
00:26:17.860 in this saying.
00:26:19.060 And somebody's like,
00:26:19.460 I was circumcised
00:26:20.040 and I didn't like it.
00:26:20.640 And I'm like,
00:26:20.920 Lynn, did you have kids yourself?
00:26:22.620 And they're often like, no.
00:26:23.600 And then I'm like, then why?
00:26:24.720 Like, clearly,
00:26:25.760 they're part of a living
00:26:27.060 cultural tradition
00:26:27.820 and you're part of a dead one.
00:26:28.980 And you're trying to enforce
00:26:30.100 this dead cultural tradition
00:26:31.140 on them.
00:26:32.100 And this is why
00:26:33.840 this idea that you have
00:26:35.240 or this intuition
00:26:35.940 that you have
00:26:36.340 that you should have the right
00:26:37.600 to deal with other cultures' kids, 1.00
00:26:39.440 I just think
00:26:39.940 is totally wrongheaded.
00:26:41.980 Cultures have the right
00:26:42.840 to protect
00:26:43.580 and deal with their own kids.
00:26:45.220 And it's not even
00:26:46.300 culturally wrongheaded.
00:26:47.100 It can be used
00:26:47.680 to hijack people 1.00
00:26:48.560 to do stupid things 1.00
00:26:50.060 very easily. 1.00
00:26:51.220 This whole, like,
00:26:52.060 starving kid in Africa thing
00:26:53.300 that we had to deal with
00:26:54.040 in the 90s
00:26:54.720 that was like
00:26:55.560 every TV break for a while.
00:26:57.920 And they're like,
00:26:58.480 now give us your money.
00:26:59.720 Here in the heart of Africa,
00:27:01.040 children are dying.
00:27:02.520 Not from disease or war,
00:27:03.680 but from hunger.
00:27:04.900 You see,
00:27:05.600 here in the middle of Africa,
00:27:07.180 food is extremely scarce.
00:27:09.200 Does it look like
00:27:09.740 she's having any trouble
00:27:10.540 finding food?
00:27:11.180 For just $5 a month,
00:27:13.000 you can sponsor a child. 1.00
00:27:14.920 That's stupid. 1.00
00:27:15.840 I love that the running theme 1.00
00:27:16.960 of this episode
00:27:17.900 is 90s commercials.
00:27:19.280 What's going on?
00:27:21.720 Yeah,
00:27:22.240 when almost all of the money
00:27:23.180 was just going to
00:27:24.140 these large bureaucracies
00:27:25.200 that had found out
00:27:25.860 how to brain hack people.
00:27:27.120 Yes!
00:27:27.640 Solace Carvers
00:27:28.440 is holding food from us!
00:27:31.960 Uh-oh.
00:27:33.300 The large bureaucracies
00:27:34.440 in ad spaces
00:27:35.040 that had found out
00:27:36.000 how to brain hack people
00:27:37.080 with other people's hurt kids.
00:27:38.840 Even now,
00:27:39.560 when you're looking at something
00:27:40.300 like what's going on in Gaza
00:27:41.380 and stuff like that,
00:27:42.160 it's just so easy
00:27:43.000 to focus on kids
00:27:44.760 that you have
00:27:45.640 no cultural responsibility to.
00:27:47.460 And the moment you feel you do,
00:27:50.320 it approves atrocities
00:27:52.520 on your behalf
00:27:53.000 because now you're like,
00:27:53.780 I said because of the kids,
00:27:55.300 now I can do whatever I want.
00:27:56.500 And I just don't think
00:27:57.380 that's a helpful instinct
00:27:59.000 and it's one that can be
00:28:00.380 easily hijacked
00:28:01.440 by nefarious forces.
00:28:02.480 But I will say
00:28:03.500 for the beginning here,
00:28:04.500 we've gone through
00:28:05.360 a whole week
00:28:06.420 of how can she slap. 1.00
00:28:07.220 How can you slap?
00:28:13.760 How can you slap?
00:28:15.700 How can she slap? 1.00
00:28:17.320 How can she slap me? 0.99
00:28:18.800 Absolutely wild.
00:28:20.740 But the other thing
00:28:21.620 I wanted to note here
00:28:22.620 is
00:28:23.320 the science does eventually
00:28:26.100 get this stuff right often.
00:28:27.880 If you take long enough,
00:28:29.000 somebody says,
00:28:29.300 oh, this is a fun area
00:28:30.120 where I can overturn the field
00:28:31.340 and do something
00:28:32.700 that is controversial
00:28:33.560 and interesting.
00:28:34.560 But also keep in mind
00:28:36.340 that you didn't hear
00:28:37.600 about this giant meta study
00:28:39.460 that had carefully
00:28:40.240 analyzed the field
00:28:41.280 and found out
00:28:42.360 that actually spanking 0.93
00:28:43.420 seems to have positive effects
00:28:45.140 and certainly doesn't
00:28:46.000 have negative effects.
00:28:46.960 You didn't know
00:28:47.800 that the better conducted
00:28:49.380 and larger study
00:28:50.220 showed no negative effects.
00:28:51.300 Sadly,
00:28:51.840 the person who's providing
00:28:53.080 thoughtful
00:28:54.560 and useful
00:28:56.380 translation
00:28:57.460 to
00:28:58.460 the average layperson,
00:29:00.620 Emile Kierkegaard,
00:29:01.480 is
00:29:01.740 someone that most
00:29:03.340 people who've ever
00:29:04.900 heard of him on Twitter,
00:29:05.720 for example,
00:29:06.240 are like,
00:29:06.580 oh, no,
00:29:06.840 he's a forbidden person.
00:29:07.900 I'm never going to engage
00:29:08.780 with anything he ever publishes,
00:29:10.280 even though he constantly
00:29:11.020 publishes super interesting stuff.
00:29:12.800 So,
00:29:14.220 yeah.
00:29:15.520 Yeah.
00:29:16.100 And this is to say
00:29:17.120 that we agree
00:29:17.460 with everything he publishes,
00:29:18.580 but that doesn't mean
00:29:19.360 anything he's not worth
00:29:20.480 intellectually engaging with.
00:29:21.580 Because,
00:29:22.000 yeah,
00:29:22.400 just because someone says
00:29:23.520 something that you disagree
00:29:24.640 with in one realm
00:29:25.580 doesn't mean that
00:29:26.540 if they say the sky is blue,
00:29:27.800 you're like,
00:29:28.200 definitely the sky is not blue.
00:29:30.160 That's not how he broke up.
00:29:30.520 Check out that the big study
00:29:31.720 wasn't done by Emile.
00:29:33.080 He just brought it to our attention.
00:29:34.560 He was just going over
00:29:35.560 the existing research.
00:29:36.680 That's why I'm saying
00:29:37.440 he's really good
00:29:38.780 at
00:29:39.040 taking issues
00:29:40.860 and saying,
00:29:41.940 here's what I'm seeing,
00:29:43.040 here's this study,
00:29:44.180 and then
00:29:44.680 here's actually
00:29:45.420 how it was conducted.
00:29:46.400 Like,
00:29:46.540 he typically goes
00:29:47.360 into the mechanics
00:29:48.260 of what's going on
00:29:49.440 behind the research,
00:29:50.260 which I'm really bad
00:29:51.340 at doing.
00:29:53.500 But this particular study
00:29:54.780 was really good
00:29:55.540 because
00:29:55.920 it was big
00:29:57.060 and it showed
00:29:57.740 how biased
00:29:58.400 these institutions are.
00:29:59.880 Yeah.
00:29:59.960 And this is the way
00:30:01.140 the urban monoculture acts
00:30:02.400 is it is at its core
00:30:03.860 imperious.
00:30:04.760 It believes
00:30:05.780 it has the right
00:30:06.840 to all other cultures,
00:30:08.560 to everyone's kid.
00:30:10.180 And it will use
00:30:11.500 any means it can
00:30:12.660 to exercise that
00:30:13.620 even if anyone
00:30:14.720 who was logically thinking
00:30:15.980 would recognize,
00:30:17.120 oh,
00:30:17.300 you're hurting kids
00:30:18.360 in banning
00:30:19.020 this sort of
00:30:19.680 moderate behavior.
00:30:21.340 As a final note here,
00:30:22.980 I actually love the idea
00:30:24.520 that this has gone so viral
00:30:25.700 because I hope
00:30:26.480 that we get seen
00:30:27.840 one day as like
00:30:28.520 parenting influencers
00:30:29.640 for parents
00:30:30.220 who want to be like
00:30:30.960 sane and cut through
00:30:31.880 the BS.
00:30:32.580 Okay.
00:30:33.140 These are people
00:30:33.880 who really understand
00:30:34.740 the science,
00:30:35.300 who are very smart,
00:30:35.960 who are very considerate,
00:30:36.960 and they're going
00:30:37.880 to provide me with
00:30:38.820 this is what you actually
00:30:39.820 need to worry about.
00:30:40.700 This is what you actually
00:30:41.580 don't need to worry about.
00:30:43.980 And,
00:30:44.260 no,
00:30:44.900 there's just so much stuff.
00:30:45.920 So much like
00:30:46.320 the whole freak out
00:30:47.380 about breast milk,
00:30:48.340 for example.
00:30:49.280 It's like breast milk
00:30:50.300 has some positive effects
00:30:52.400 for early diseases,
00:30:54.220 specifically gut health
00:30:55.960 in the early years,
00:30:56.840 which can affect
00:30:57.640 nutritional uptake
00:30:58.700 and can have minor effects
00:30:59.820 in a few areas.
00:31:01.080 But if it's
00:31:01.680 massively inconveniencing you,
00:31:03.500 it's not really worth it.
00:31:04.760 And effects become
00:31:05.840 marginal
00:31:06.920 from what I've seen
00:31:07.680 in the research
00:31:08.280 that I actually find
00:31:09.040 believable
00:31:09.540 after a few months.
00:31:11.920 And a lot of people
00:31:12.320 are like,
00:31:12.620 you can't say that.
00:31:13.480 That's not what
00:31:14.180 we're supposed to believe.
00:31:15.920 And it's,
00:31:16.260 yeah,
00:31:16.480 but it's what I'm seeing
00:31:18.120 in the data.
00:31:18.880 So we'll call it
00:31:20.060 bop style parenting.
00:31:21.440 I think that's what
00:31:21.920 a lot of,
00:31:22.740 and I also love
00:31:23.580 another really funny thing
00:31:24.680 is a lot of these writers
00:31:25.660 who are writing about us
00:31:26.360 are younger than us.
00:31:27.680 So they don't know bop it.
00:31:29.680 They don't know.
00:31:30.600 I think there's an interesting
00:31:31.340 thing that millennials get 0.66
00:31:32.700 that no one else is getting
00:31:33.920 because the term bop
00:31:35.560 during our generation
00:31:37.300 was associated with
00:31:38.820 playful,
00:31:40.440 light,
00:31:41.360 physical contact.
00:31:42.800 There were specifically
00:31:43.860 two toys.
00:31:45.180 One was called
00:31:45.600 the sock and bopper.
00:31:46.580 It was like a blow up
00:31:47.660 punchy thing.
00:31:49.240 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:31:50.600 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:31:51.680 You can sock all day.
00:31:52.880 And bop all night.
00:31:54.680 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:31:56.040 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:31:57.300 More fun than
00:31:58.400 a pillow fight. 0.60
00:31:59.900 Blow them up. 0.73
00:32:01.140 Put your hand inside.
00:32:02.540 Get ready to have
00:32:03.700 the time of your life.
00:32:05.540 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:32:06.920 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:32:08.100 Sock them once.
00:32:09.480 And bop them twice.
00:32:10.980 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:32:12.360 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:32:13.580 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:32:14.600 More fun than
00:32:15.280 a pillow fight.
00:32:15.980 By big time toys.
00:32:17.740 Sock a bopper. 1.00
00:32:18.820 So basically
00:32:19.780 toy makers realized
00:32:21.420 oh yeah
00:32:22.100 kids like to
00:32:22.820 punch each other a lot
00:32:23.860 like our boys do
00:32:24.940 all the time
00:32:25.800 when they're playing around
00:32:26.800 and oh maybe we can
00:32:28.160 lessen the impact
00:32:29.020 so we'll make a balloon
00:32:29.880 that goes on your hand.
00:32:31.460 And then there was
00:32:32.640 the bopper
00:32:33.340 which is just a toy
00:32:34.300 that you smack around.
00:32:36.160 Hey! 0.99
00:32:36.860 Wanna play bopper?
00:32:37.820 It commands you obey.
00:32:39.520 Bopper.
00:32:40.800 Twist it.
00:32:42.360 Tap it.
00:32:43.020 If you can't keep up
00:32:44.000 Twist it.
00:32:44.480 You lose.
00:32:45.640 Once you get your hands
00:32:46.520 on bopper
00:32:46.920 you're not gonna
00:32:47.660 wanna stop it.
00:32:48.560 Fast talking electronic
00:32:49.500 bopper.
00:32:49.940 Battery's not included.
00:32:50.860 I actually wanna talk
00:32:51.960 to the talking boppers
00:32:52.760 because this is not
00:32:53.800 a toy that could
00:32:54.740 go popular right now.
00:32:56.040 Oh heavens no
00:32:56.800 to encourage children
00:32:57.980 to punch each other
00:32:58.960 how could you?
00:32:59.960 This would never do.
00:33:00.340 But it shows
00:33:01.400 how much things
00:33:02.160 have changed
00:33:02.800 that we used to
00:33:03.480 understand that boys
00:33:04.660 play and learn
00:33:07.280 rough.
00:33:08.320 Yeah.
00:33:08.660 Like when a boy
00:33:09.380 is being a
00:33:09.880 Why do you think
00:33:11.440 boys get in trouble
00:33:12.140 so much more at school?
00:33:13.420 That's the thing.
00:33:13.960 Our society
00:33:15.000 doesn't permit them
00:33:15.780 to be themselves.
00:33:16.940 Slugs and snails
00:33:18.080 and puppy dog tails
00:33:19.140 is what little boys
00:33:20.620 are made of.
00:33:21.200 They're not made
00:33:21.700 of the same things
00:33:22.300 as little girls
00:33:22.760 and this is an
00:33:23.300 interesting thing
00:33:23.700 I can already see
00:33:24.280 the difference
00:33:24.680 in emotional needs
00:33:26.880 of my kids.
00:33:27.880 Yeah.
00:33:28.180 With the male kids 0.93
00:33:29.160 and we'll probably
00:33:29.680 do a full episode
00:33:30.300 on this one day
00:33:31.000 the male kids
00:33:32.280 really play fighting
00:33:33.940 like me getting
00:33:35.600 on my knees
00:33:37.020 or on the floor
00:33:37.860 and play fighting them
00:33:38.980 is probably the most
00:33:40.240 fun they have
00:33:41.040 in their lives.
00:33:41.840 Seriously
00:33:42.200 I don't think
00:33:42.760 anything
00:33:43.440 any activity
00:33:44.860 I do with them
00:33:45.780 is nearly as fun
00:33:47.120 for them
00:33:47.660 as play fighting
00:33:48.380 with their dad.
00:33:49.080 I love it.
00:33:49.480 But the girls 0.99
00:33:50.460 are the one girl
00:33:51.480 who's really able
00:33:52.200 to engage right now.
00:33:53.260 Who's old enough 0.93
00:33:53.780 for us to see a sample.
00:33:54.900 When we're play fighting
00:33:55.720 she'll sometimes engage
00:33:56.760 but mostly she's off
00:33:57.660 doing her own thing
00:33:58.540 but what she really loves
00:33:59.780 is just being held
00:34:00.680 and hugged.
00:34:01.580 She is very needy 0.90
00:34:02.860 in terms of hugs
00:34:03.720 and stuff like that
00:34:04.640 and it's just a different
00:34:06.100 way of engaging
00:34:07.000 with the world
00:34:07.660 and I've noticed
00:34:08.260 a lot of these people
00:34:09.240 who are like
00:34:10.100 oh I would never
00:34:11.320 use any sort
00:34:12.800 of corporeal punishment
00:34:13.500 with my child
00:34:14.040 I'm like
00:34:14.500 they either have
00:34:15.740 one or fewer boys.
00:34:17.940 Or yeah
00:34:18.420 if you have a girl
00:34:19.080 I would totally
00:34:19.800 understand that intuition.
00:34:21.320 This is averages
00:34:22.160 there are some
00:34:22.940 rough and tumble girls 1.00
00:34:23.920 there are some
00:34:24.440 very sensitive boys
00:34:25.640 and so we're not saying
00:34:26.600 that any of this
00:34:27.320 is sweet.
00:34:29.140 Well another thing
00:34:30.000 that I found
00:34:30.440 very interesting
00:34:31.060 and I might just
00:34:32.020 go to people
00:34:32.700 going forward
00:34:33.300 that do this
00:34:33.880 because one of our
00:34:34.380 friends pointed out
00:34:34.980 that like
00:34:35.260 their sibling
00:34:37.060 and said some
00:34:38.380 mean stuff about us
00:34:39.080 online over this
00:34:40.440 and they were like
00:34:41.120 this person has
00:34:42.200 two female kids
00:34:44.500 and one of them
00:34:45.320 is already on Xanax
00:34:47.040 and not
00:34:47.880 what was it
00:34:48.320 not Xanax
00:34:48.860 it was Zoloft
00:34:49.460 Zoloft
00:34:50.340 one of them's
00:34:50.800 already on Zoloft
00:34:51.800 and this is actually
00:34:53.220 important to elevate
00:34:54.240 is that
00:34:55.600 a lot of the people
00:34:56.960 who criticize us
00:34:57.900 and I actually
00:34:58.700 would ask people
00:34:59.480 going forwards
00:35:00.400 if they're criticizing
00:35:01.280 us for this
00:35:01.960 I'd say okay
00:35:02.700 how many kids
00:35:03.220 do you have
00:35:03.820 or rather
00:35:04.460 how many boys
00:35:05.080 do you have
00:35:05.500 is the more
00:35:05.900 important question
00:35:06.600 and then the
00:35:07.420 second question
00:35:07.900 I'd ask
00:35:08.380 is okay
00:35:09.440 how many of your
00:35:10.120 kids have
00:35:10.840 a mental health
00:35:11.800 issue
00:35:12.060 or are taking
00:35:12.500 medication
00:35:12.880 for mental
00:35:13.260 health issues
00:35:13.780 and of course
00:35:14.400 then they're
00:35:14.720 going to go
00:35:14.920 they're immediately
00:35:16.540 going to be like
00:35:16.960 I can't tell you
00:35:17.620 that
00:35:18.020 and I'm going to
00:35:18.660 be like
00:35:18.860 so that's
00:35:19.360 an obvious sign
00:35:20.080 that one of your
00:35:20.540 kids definitely 1.00
00:35:21.120 has a mental 0.75
00:35:21.580 health issue 0.95
00:35:22.080 and you cannot
00:35:23.880 tell me that
00:35:24.500 your parenting
00:35:25.040 style was superior
00:35:26.260 to mine
00:35:26.920 when it led
00:35:27.700 to deleterious
00:35:28.700 outcomes
00:35:29.280 and then if
00:35:30.260 not that
00:35:30.740 then I'd say
00:35:31.080 then how long
00:35:32.060 a week do you
00:35:32.700 actually spend
00:35:33.360 with your kids
00:35:33.780 because this is
00:35:34.160 another thing
00:35:34.620 she was noting
00:35:35.020 this person who
00:35:35.500 is complaining
00:35:35.860 about us
00:35:36.380 literally only
00:35:37.400 spends weekends
00:35:38.040 with their kids
00:35:38.720 and it's they
00:35:39.220 have no idea
00:35:40.220 how to parent
00:35:40.780 really
00:35:41.160 and that's the
00:35:42.480 problem a lot
00:35:42.960 of quote unquote
00:35:43.600 parents don't
00:35:44.880 have to actually
00:35:45.580 parent and so
00:35:46.600 they come up
00:35:47.120 with insane
00:35:47.760 ideas about how
00:35:48.660 parenting works
00:35:49.480 we don't have
00:35:50.800 nannies around
00:35:51.580 most of the time
00:35:52.400 when our kids
00:35:52.820 are with us
00:35:53.200 we don't have
00:35:53.700 any sort of
00:35:54.300 help like that
00:35:55.000 and so we have
00:35:55.860 to actually parent
00:35:57.060 and these people
00:35:58.180 don't they have
00:35:59.320 somebody to pin
00:36:00.180 down every child
00:36:01.260 in their house
00:36:01.880 if all of them
00:36:02.500 are playing bad
00:36:03.920 at the same time
00:36:04.700 and so they never
00:36:05.160 need to learn
00:36:05.660 real parenting
00:36:06.200 techniques
00:36:06.720 that or they
00:36:08.220 treat parenting
00:36:09.180 like helicopter
00:36:10.600 parenting and
00:36:11.760 for sure when
00:36:13.500 any of our kids
00:36:14.760 are with us
00:36:15.480 one-on-one
00:36:16.140 I don't think
00:36:16.980 we've ever
00:36:17.940 been in a situation
00:36:18.980 where we would
00:36:19.580 need to bop
00:36:20.160 one of our kids
00:36:20.800 when it's us
00:36:21.740 and one of the kids
00:36:22.480 so like probably
00:36:24.200 if we had only kids
00:36:25.160 this would never
00:36:26.320 be a thing
00:36:26.940 it only really
00:36:28.100 like kids only
00:36:28.840 seem to
00:36:29.360 our kids at least
00:36:30.440 get really riled up
00:36:31.740 and out of hand
00:36:32.400 when they're
00:36:33.120 feeding off each
00:36:33.980 other and things
00:36:34.800 get chaotic
00:36:35.480 I like I like
00:36:37.280 that they're able
00:36:37.820 to get chaotic
00:36:38.560 and out of hand
00:36:39.300 yeah but it
00:36:40.300 sometimes means
00:36:41.140 that they aren't
00:36:42.260 hearing us when
00:36:43.120 we say they need
00:36:43.760 to simmer down
00:36:44.620 and only
00:36:46.340 you did not get
00:36:47.140 off you little 1.00
00:36:47.700 shit 1.00
00:36:48.060 I'm almost sad 0.99
00:36:49.340 that I behaved
00:36:49.980 so well in the
00:36:50.660 moment that I
00:36:51.180 was like Torsten
00:36:51.980 daddy loves you
00:36:52.740 I immediately
00:36:53.220 did all the stuff
00:36:53.900 kept him in the
00:36:54.460 circle of love
00:36:55.200 without making
00:36:56.980 him feel expelled
00:36:57.980 but let him know
00:36:58.460 he had crossed a
00:36:58.940 boundary
00:36:59.200 I almost wish
00:37:00.180 I just said
00:37:00.600 knock it off
00:37:01.120 you little 1.00
00:37:01.400 shit 1.00
00:37:01.580 we don't do 0.99
00:37:02.160 that though
00:37:02.700 like we want
00:37:03.620 our kids to
00:37:04.520 not feel rejected
00:37:05.260 we don't do
00:37:05.800 the whole emotional
00:37:06.560 terrorism thing
00:37:07.700 which is
00:37:09.240 I think favorable
00:37:11.400 that's not
00:37:12.380 right
00:37:12.700 yeah I think
00:37:13.880 I hope that we
00:37:14.600 can I would say
00:37:15.340 all kids are
00:37:15.920 different
00:37:16.340 learn yourself
00:37:17.480 we'll be
00:37:18.260 parenting influencers
00:37:19.700 as well I suppose
00:37:20.760 in terms of
00:37:21.980 parenting methods
00:37:22.940 because I
00:37:23.640 I think that it
00:37:25.260 is important
00:37:25.960 to cut through
00:37:27.440 the BS
00:37:28.240 that is being
00:37:29.120 put out there
00:37:29.660 by ideologues
00:37:30.700 as science
00:37:31.720 but doesn't
00:37:32.600 actually have
00:37:33.060 data behind it
00:37:33.860 I love you
00:37:36.500 Simone
00:37:36.700 I love you too
00:37:37.840 Malcolm
00:37:38.160 and I love
00:37:38.740 our kids