Based Camp - The Future of Women

00:00:00.000 I'm kind of of the opinion that modern life induces something

00:00:04.880 like gender dysphoria in almost everyone.

00:00:08.960 I love that.

00:00:10.240 Say more.

00:00:11.020 I want to hear more.

00:00:12.220 Yes.

00:00:13.060 But, you know, the basic things, I always think when you look

00:00:16.760 at a list of sort of ways to resolve depression and anxiety,

00:00:20.800 the list of things that you're advised to do are basically

00:00:23.440 the list of things that would comprise a standard hunter-gatherer

00:00:26.580 day, right?

00:00:27.700 Like being outside, exercising, socialising with other people,

00:00:32.640 sitting around a campfire, you know, all this kind of stuff,

00:00:35.700 which people have hormonally respond to really positively,

00:00:39.960 but which aren't a part of a standard modern day.

00:00:43.580 And so for men, you know, that includes things like hunting

00:00:46.400 and fishing and, like, being with male friends and all this kind

00:00:50.740 of stuff, which they are largely denied.

00:00:53.300 And similarly for women, like, it is my strong intuition,

00:00:57.180 for instance, that one of the things that is driving the famed,

00:01:01.740 poor mental health of teenage girls, it is Instagram and all

00:01:05.100 of this kind of stuff.

00:01:05.760 I agree with that.

00:01:06.620 I think it's also that teenage girls historically would have spent

00:01:09.420 a lot of time around young children.

00:01:11.520 Would you like to know more?

00:01:12.960 Hello, everyone.

00:01:13.840 We are super excited today to be joined by Louise Perry,

00:01:16.980 who wrote The Case Against the Sexual Revolution,

00:01:19.920 a book that really got a lot of people talking for the first time

00:01:22.960 about things just not really working for women,

00:01:25.040 in addition to things not really working for men in modern society.

00:01:28.240 Plus, she is the podcast host of Maiden Mother Matriarch,

00:01:32.300 one of the fastest growing new podcasts recently.

00:01:35.860 So it's a great read and listen.

00:01:37.900 And basically, she has the best guests on.

00:01:41.140 So please do check out that podcast as well as the book.

00:01:43.620 But today...

00:01:44.900 Hold on, hold on.

00:01:45.460 Just for framing for audience, if you haven't heard of her,

00:01:47.740 because you're just mentioning books and stuff,

00:01:49.400 she's probably the most influential conservative influencer

00:01:54.060 in the UK right now,

00:01:55.300 in terms of conservative social ideas, intellectualism.

00:01:59.580 She's the big wig right now,

00:02:00.880 and she's really been moving the bar forwards

00:02:02.820 on a number of issues.

00:02:04.740 You're very kind.

00:02:06.740 Hey, no, we were just in London for a week

00:02:08.680 talking with a bunch of people

00:02:09.960 who are in influential positions of society.

00:02:11.940 And when we talked with people about,

00:02:13.100 like, well, who is the public-facing leader

00:02:16.340 of modern conservative thought moving things forward?

00:02:19.960 We heard your name.

00:02:21.680 So the topic of today is going to be the future of women,

00:02:26.520 like where you think the future of women is going.

00:02:29.120 And this is in the context of fertility rates,

00:02:33.020 because obviously the future of women

00:02:35.160 is hugely going to be determined

00:02:36.980 by the types of women who actually have kids.

00:02:40.880 So first, I just love your initial thoughts.

00:02:44.500 I mean, we can talk short-term, long-term, right?

00:02:46.600 Like, I think we can talk, like,

00:02:47.880 what works now for having kids,

00:02:49.880 how can we motivate individual groups now for having kids,

00:02:52.840 and then we'll go into the future.

00:02:54.320 Where do you think women are going to be in 100 years?

00:02:56.340 Where do you think women are going to be in 500 years?

00:02:59.480 I did a debate recently in LA,

00:03:02.060 organized by Barry Weiss and the Free Press,

00:03:04.200 about the sexual revolution,

00:03:05.880 and Grimes, who I was debating against,

00:03:07.720 had this great line,

00:03:08.620 which we were just kind of running with the whole,

00:03:10.520 was a sexual revolution, good or bad for women?

00:03:12.600 And Grimes just said, you know,

00:03:13.360 if women still exist, of course.

00:03:16.260 It's a good comment, oh my gosh.

00:03:19.040 Yeah, and it was like a funny comment,

00:03:21.020 but also an astute one,

00:03:22.040 because obviously biotech is all to play for.

00:03:25.240 Except, I mean, as I'm sure you'll both agree,

00:03:28.240 we are at this very difficult potential bifurcation point,

00:03:33.520 where we could go ever more down the biotech route

00:03:37.800 and, you know, upload ourselves to the cloud or whatever,

00:03:41.760 which I have my misgivings about, you know,

00:03:43.880 and one of the things, for instance,

00:03:45.060 I'm skeptical of is some kinds of repro tech.

00:03:48.600 I'm more open to others.

00:03:49.560 We can get into it.

00:03:50.720 That's one route that we might go down as a species,

00:03:53.140 as a civilization.

00:03:54.160 The other, as we all know,

00:03:56.260 is that actually birth rate,

00:03:58.000 the birth rate problem leads to such economic stagnation,

00:04:02.000 such civilizational decline,

00:04:03.740 that we never actually,

00:04:05.640 we don't actually make any technological progress,

00:04:08.180 that actually we end up stalling,

00:04:09.540 end up going backwards.

00:04:11.080 I don't really know which is going to happen.

00:04:12.900 I mean, I suppose it's plausible

00:04:13.960 that both might happen,

00:04:16.100 that you might end up with kind of high-tech enclaves

00:04:18.660 in some parts of the world.

00:04:20.100 That's our camp.

00:04:21.300 Yeah, which get ever more,

00:04:23.300 like Byzantium or something, right?

00:04:25.440 You know, civilization retreating

00:04:27.080 to very, very high-tech

00:04:29.000 and relatively stable and affluent enclaves

00:04:33.960 while everywhere else,

00:04:35.900 unfortunately, experiences the effects of low birth rates.

00:04:39.080 I don't know, maybe that's the route.

00:04:40.640 Either way, it's obviously going to have

00:04:41.880 an enormous effect on sex reproduction.

00:04:43.320 Yeah, here's a question I have for you

00:04:45.360 because I actually see a third path, right?

00:04:47.300 So I think that there are,

00:04:49.400 well, I mean, there's,

00:04:50.520 I think you're going to have some people

00:04:52.260 trying for each path.

00:04:53.220 Like, obviously, we, Simone and I,

00:04:55.860 are part of the cultural group this time

00:04:57.240 for the ultra-high-tech pathway.

00:04:59.380 Whereas we see you,

00:05:01.540 and you can correct us if we're wrong,

00:05:03.920 as sort of,

00:05:04.920 and we frame all of the different cultural approaches

00:05:08.240 to fertility rates right now

00:05:10.060 and family right now as hypotheses.

00:05:12.280 And time will judge

00:05:13.860 which hypotheses are intergenerationally stable.

00:05:16.460 One that's very obviously intergenerationally stable,

00:05:19.260 which you called out as well,

00:05:20.540 are these xenophobic, technophobic,

00:05:23.720 and generally economically unproductive cultural groups,

00:05:27.720 which they will definitely exist in the future.

00:05:30.160 Just how much they matter depends on

00:05:31.680 if anyone else still exists.

00:05:33.400 But I sort of have always seen you

00:05:35.140 as representing something quite in between the two.

00:05:38.820 Not the aggressively technophobic and xenophobic group,

00:05:43.500 but of a group that represents

00:05:45.260 sort of more wholesome, traditional values.

00:05:48.680 And I'm wondering,

00:05:49.660 if you are representing that group,

00:05:52.440 how do you see that group

00:05:54.000 as sort of recruiting and staying stable

00:05:57.400 in a world in which they increasingly,

00:06:00.380 and you could say this won't happen,

00:06:02.980 but I sort of see increasingly

00:06:04.340 they won't have control over governing systems

00:06:06.980 that they live under.

00:06:08.620 So how do they protect themselves

00:06:10.100 in environments

00:06:10.840 where there's hostile governments, et cetera?

00:06:13.160 Like, what are your thoughts?

00:06:13.980 Yeah, so I mean,

00:06:16.260 I'm quite agnostic on this question

00:06:17.960 and I think about it a lot.

00:06:19.200 I think it's a very difficult one.

00:06:21.000 And I guess it's partly because I am,

00:06:23.740 I'm sort of culturally Catholic

00:06:26.840 in the sense that I have

00:06:28.700 an enormous number of Catholic friends

00:06:30.860 and I often find myself

00:06:32.580 kind of circling back to Catholic ideas

00:06:34.740 around that feel intuitively true to me.

00:06:37.580 But I'm actually an agnostic.

00:06:39.960 I wasn't raised Christian, alone Catholic.

00:06:43.000 And so I don't,

00:06:45.440 I therefore don't feel

00:06:47.040 as if I'm completely beholden

00:06:48.620 to what the Catholic Church says on things.

00:06:50.380 So for instance,

00:06:51.000 I am sympathetic to IVF

00:06:53.900 in particular instances.

00:06:56.000 I'm potentially sympathetic

00:06:57.100 to polygenic screening.

00:06:59.600 I'm much less sympathetic to surrogacy.

00:07:02.380 So I kind of,

00:07:02.900 I go,

00:07:04.100 I can go either way

00:07:05.760 on some of these biotech questions.

00:07:07.440 And I suppose that the question for me

00:07:08.960 and the question for all of us,

00:07:09.820 it's a really difficult one

00:07:10.680 is if you have a,

00:07:16.120 so let's talk about polygenic screening,

00:07:18.120 for instance.

00:07:21.180 As far as I'm aware,

00:07:22.240 the position of,

00:07:23.420 the sort of mainstream Christian position

00:07:24.860 on this is anti

00:07:25.880 because it involves

00:07:27.340 the destruction of embryos,

00:07:29.340 at least in its current,

00:07:30.260 you know,

00:07:30.920 incarnation.

00:07:31.300 And also because,

00:07:32.580 you know,

00:07:33.980 tinkering with the genome

00:07:35.260 is something that a lot

00:07:36.200 of traditional Christians

00:07:37.600 are very suspicious of.

00:07:39.780 But then I also figure

00:07:40.980 that the reason

00:07:41.620 that we've got to the point

00:07:42.540 where polygenic screening

00:07:43.400 may well be necessary

00:07:44.420 is because we've done

00:07:45.600 this miraculous thing

00:07:46.500 in dropping infant mortality

00:07:47.560 to almost zero

00:07:48.540 from a species norm

00:07:50.380 of maybe 40 to 50%, right?

00:07:52.520 And that's a wonderful,

00:07:53.700 wonderful thing

00:07:54.300 that medical technology

00:07:55.180 has bestowed on the world.

00:07:56.400 It also means

00:07:57.760 that we have this crumbling

00:07:58.700 genome problem,

00:08:00.280 which I'm sure you'll be familiar

00:08:01.120 with, I'm sure.

00:08:01.920 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:08:02.520 And our audience

00:08:03.300 definitely,

00:08:04.020 we talk about this a lot.

00:08:05.080 Yeah, it's something

00:08:05.620 that I think a lot of,

00:08:07.160 when you're talking about

00:08:07.700 people who aren't our audience,

00:08:08.640 like the general public,

00:08:09.400 they don't understand

00:08:10.060 that just about

00:08:12.100 three or four generations ago,

00:08:13.920 about 50% of kids

00:08:15.060 were dying before the age of one.

00:08:16.680 Like, this is not distant history

00:08:18.600 when you're talking evolutionarily.

00:08:20.900 But anyway, continue.

00:08:21.660 Yeah.

00:08:21.920 So we're basically

00:08:22.640 keeping the infant mortality rate

00:08:24.180 artificially very low.

00:08:25.940 And there are problems

00:08:27.220 downstream from that

00:08:28.100 in that you now,

00:08:28.920 you know,

00:08:29.140 if we were to suddenly

00:08:30.000 whip away Western medical technology,

00:08:31.900 which might happen

00:08:32.780 if you have sort of

00:08:33.760 catastrophic economic decline,

00:08:36.300 loads and loads of people

00:08:37.040 are actually not well enough

00:08:38.080 to survive.

00:08:39.400 And we end up

00:08:40.140 with all of these

00:08:41.180 genes for disease

00:08:45.560 propagating themselves

00:08:46.420 in a way

00:08:46.720 that they wouldn't otherwise.

00:08:47.360 And I think,

00:08:49.440 okay,

00:08:49.720 if you sit,

00:08:51.680 how do,

00:08:52.460 how do,

00:08:53.040 say,

00:08:53.320 Christian principles

00:08:54.200 that go back 2,000 years

00:08:56.040 contend with this kind of

00:08:57.440 completely novel problem,

00:08:58.620 which is,

00:08:59.080 which is a product of technology?

00:09:00.720 And I suppose my argument

00:09:02.040 to people who

00:09:03.000 would hold to the more

00:09:04.240 traditional view

00:09:04.920 is,

00:09:06.000 you know,

00:09:06.320 I hear you.

00:09:07.020 I think that rapid

00:09:07.700 technological change

00:09:08.580 is risky.

00:09:09.760 And the precautionary principle

00:09:11.080 sort of demands

00:09:12.360 that we be,

00:09:13.160 that we be very suspicious

00:09:14.920 of rapid technological change.

00:09:16.780 as like an instinctive

00:09:18.300 conservative,

00:09:18.720 that's my position.

00:09:19.500 But also the situation

00:09:21.100 we're in

00:09:21.640 is we have problems

00:09:23.420 generated by technology

00:09:24.680 that can only solve,

00:09:26.080 might be solved

00:09:26.620 with more technology.

00:09:28.620 And so the choices

00:09:29.580 we have to make,

00:09:30.360 therefore,

00:09:30.620 are like,

00:09:30.860 okay,

00:09:31.120 we,

00:09:31.580 you know,

00:09:31.800 take sort of basic

00:09:32.740 Christian ideas,

00:09:33.560 which I hold to,

00:09:35.120 right,

00:09:35.720 that feel instinctively

00:09:36.600 true to me,

00:09:37.540 but then we have to be

00:09:38.480 trying to apply them

00:09:39.500 to incredibly novel,

00:09:41.520 modern questions.

00:09:43.280 So,

00:09:43.840 so yeah,

00:09:44.260 as you say,

00:09:44.720 Malcolm,

00:09:45.040 therefore,

00:09:45.220 I guess in some sense

00:09:46.020 I'm somewhere

00:09:46.500 between the two extremes.

00:09:48.540 Yeah,

00:09:48.740 well,

00:09:48.920 and I think

00:09:49.440 something that I always note

00:09:50.680 with the IVF stuff

00:09:51.600 is this is a really hard thing

00:09:53.320 to make a call on

00:09:54.840 when you look at,

00:09:56.800 especially the groups

00:09:57.660 that are against it,

00:09:58.940 when you look at

00:09:59.380 how much human fertility

00:10:00.380 has declined

00:10:01.040 in the last 50 years.

00:10:02.700 You know,

00:10:02.920 sperm rates are down

00:10:03.640 over 50%

00:10:04.600 in the last 50 years.

00:10:05.780 You know,

00:10:06.080 testosterone is down 30%.

00:10:07.600 We've got endocrine disruptors

00:10:09.300 in our environment

00:10:10.040 which are changing

00:10:10.680 the way gender

00:10:11.240 is presenting.

00:10:11.780 It is dramatically harder

00:10:15.160 to naturally have kids

00:10:16.360 for us

00:10:16.920 than it was

00:10:17.860 for our grandparents

00:10:18.640 and it's going to be

00:10:19.300 harder yet for our kids

00:10:20.500 because it's the one blind spot

00:10:22.300 that the environmental movement

00:10:23.660 just completely ignored

00:10:25.360 which is one of those things

00:10:27.080 where it's sad to me

00:10:29.040 because I actually

00:10:29.780 culturally really,

00:10:31.560 like you,

00:10:32.580 I feel simpatico

00:10:34.600 with the groups

00:10:35.200 that are even sort of

00:10:36.220 antagonistic

00:10:36.920 to this technology

00:10:37.780 but I do worry for them.

00:10:40.160 Yeah.

00:10:40.300 Okay,

00:10:42.820 so I'll propose a very,

00:10:44.600 I actually have no idea

00:10:45.780 where you're going to fall

00:10:46.420 on this question

00:10:47.060 because it was a really

00:10:47.980 interesting thing.

00:10:48.680 So,

00:10:49.200 you guys might not know this,

00:10:50.200 Louise Perry put together

00:10:51.080 this conference

00:10:51.660 or was one of the key people

00:10:52.800 at this conference

00:10:53.280 called ARC

00:10:53.840 which was like a

00:10:55.000 conservative-leaning Davos.

00:10:56.620 Now,

00:10:56.700 they don't say

00:10:57.120 conservative-leaning,

00:10:57.880 they say just an alternative

00:10:58.780 but it was for a lot

00:11:00.720 of thinkers in the space

00:11:02.060 and at one point

00:11:03.280 during it,

00:11:04.040 artificial wombs came up

00:11:05.380 and somebody was horrified

00:11:06.920 who I was talking to

00:11:07.620 because they were

00:11:07.940 a very traditional

00:11:08.700 conservative woman

00:11:09.900 and they were like,

00:11:10.940 well,

00:11:11.160 if there's artificial wombs

00:11:12.440 then why do we even need women?

00:11:14.340 Like,

00:11:14.660 that's the most

00:11:15.160 anti-feminist thing

00:11:16.220 I could imagine

00:11:16.900 and I remember thinking

00:11:18.580 I was like,

00:11:19.040 yeah,

00:11:19.120 but like,

00:11:20.920 is that like,

00:11:21.780 I guess I just didn't understand

00:11:23.860 what was so existentially

00:11:24.960 bad about that.

00:11:25.740 Like,

00:11:25.860 I assumed most people

00:11:26.860 identify more

00:11:27.940 with like their family

00:11:29.640 or their culture

00:11:30.740 than their gender

00:11:31.660 but she very clearly

00:11:33.120 was like,

00:11:33.600 I am a woman first

00:11:34.640 and then my culture

00:11:35.580 and family,

00:11:36.160 like,

00:11:36.720 what do you think

00:11:37.780 about artificial wombs

00:11:39.140 and what do you think

00:11:40.180 about worlds

00:11:40.880 in which

00:11:41.480 it does turn out

00:11:42.920 to be healthier

00:11:43.860 to maybe gestate

00:11:44.800 a baby outside the body?

00:11:46.600 Like,

00:11:46.940 what do we do

00:11:48.300 in that world?

00:11:49.520 And how do you,

00:11:51.640 would you like

00:11:52.560 restructure the family

00:11:53.520 in any way?

00:11:54.460 Do you see that world

00:11:55.360 as horrifying?

00:11:56.680 Like,

00:11:57.020 yeah,

00:11:57.180 I'd love to hear more.

00:11:58.020 I think it was

00:12:00.360 Jermaine Greer

00:12:01.300 who wrote

00:12:02.160 many decades ago

00:12:03.080 that if we ever

00:12:03.980 invent artificial wombs

00:12:05.460 then patriarchy

00:12:07.220 will just sort of

00:12:08.120 stamp women out

00:12:08.920 or I've no need

00:12:09.600 for it anymore

00:12:10.220 and we'll like,

00:12:11.240 it'll be game over.

00:12:12.080 I don't agree with that.

00:12:13.180 I'd say that's a very paranoid

00:12:14.560 sort of reading.

00:12:16.160 That's not what worries me.

00:12:17.960 I mean,

00:12:18.160 the main thing

00:12:18.660 that worries me

00:12:19.220 about artificial wombs

00:12:20.280 is I think that,

00:12:21.120 I think mothers

00:12:22.220 are extremely important

00:12:24.600 to not just,

00:12:25.780 you know,

00:12:26.100 physical developments

00:12:27.100 of infants

00:12:27.540 but emotional development

00:12:28.500 of infants

00:12:29.080 and I worry terribly

00:12:30.840 about,

00:12:33.480 it just seems like

00:12:34.720 it frightens me

00:12:37.540 in terms of the,

00:12:40.060 how much could go wrong

00:12:41.680 during the experimental

00:12:42.580 development

00:12:43.220 of such technology.

00:12:44.680 I mean,

00:12:45.160 what may happen,

00:12:46.940 right,

00:12:47.080 is that we already

00:12:47.920 are able to sustain

00:12:49.140 embryos in vitro

00:12:50.140 for quite a long time.

00:12:52.360 You have incubators

00:12:53.660 for increasingly

00:12:55.740 premature infants.

00:12:56.780 You know,

00:12:56.900 maybe they eventually

00:12:57.680 meet in the middle

00:12:58.380 without the need

00:12:59.220 for any kind

00:13:00.600 of radical experimentation

00:13:01.620 so that,

00:13:02.200 you know,

00:13:02.420 and obviously

00:13:03.280 there are good reasons

00:13:04.180 to have both of those,

00:13:05.540 both of those forms

00:13:06.920 of technology.

00:13:10.160 Would I want to restructure

00:13:11.200 the family?

00:13:11.940 My instance is to say no.

00:13:13.600 I mean,

00:13:13.780 one of the things

00:13:14.440 that sets me apart

00:13:15.820 maybe a little bit

00:13:16.480 from other conservative

00:13:17.420 commentators

00:13:18.000 is that I am very interested

00:13:19.320 in evolutionary psychology.

00:13:20.840 I think that evolutionary

00:13:21.800 psychology has a lot

00:13:22.740 to teach us

00:13:23.700 in terms of how

00:13:24.800 we reckon

00:13:25.300 with rapid

00:13:25.880 social and technological

00:13:27.400 change

00:13:28.100 because my sort

00:13:29.540 of guiding principle

00:13:30.300 is that

00:13:30.940 our environments

00:13:32.040 might change enormously

00:13:33.120 but our minds

00:13:33.780 don't change that much

00:13:35.080 and the more you learn

00:13:36.700 about how

00:13:37.400 the human mind works

00:13:38.920 and how human relationships

00:13:39.980 work and so on,

00:13:40.880 the more you realise

00:13:41.920 that actually

00:13:42.460 sticking to

00:13:43.340 the old ways

00:13:44.740 there's normally

00:13:45.200 a very good reason

00:13:46.080 to do that.

00:13:47.040 which is not to say

00:13:48.420 that we reject

00:13:48.960 change full stop,

00:13:49.660 it's not to say

00:13:50.040 we reject

00:13:50.360 technology full stop,

00:13:51.440 you know,

00:13:51.860 going back to

00:13:52.340 the infant mortality thing,

00:13:53.460 I love the fact

00:13:54.200 that I don't have

00:13:55.760 to worry about

00:13:56.600 losing young children

00:13:59.020 to preventable disease,

00:14:00.080 you know,

00:14:00.220 this is miraculous stuff

00:14:01.920 but I think that

00:14:04.440 efforts to tinker

00:14:05.560 with the family

00:14:06.260 for instance,

00:14:06.900 I mean like

00:14:07.240 there's so much

00:14:08.880 fascinating data

00:14:09.900 for instance

00:14:10.380 on the importance

00:14:11.080 of mothers and fathers

00:14:11.960 to child development,

00:14:13.680 the sort of instinctive stuff

00:14:14.880 that you don't really know

00:14:16.200 is going on,

00:14:16.820 like Erica Commissar

00:14:17.640 is coming on my podcast soon,

00:14:18.800 she's so interesting on this

00:14:20.060 and on the necessity

00:14:21.240 of like fathers

00:14:23.000 playing with children,

00:14:24.140 you know,

00:14:24.600 mothers doing

00:14:25.420 the soothing brow stuff,

00:14:26.280 all this stuff

00:14:26.760 that we do instinctively

00:14:27.840 is actually so essential

00:14:29.740 to developing

00:14:30.460 a healthy person

00:14:32.160 which is why

00:14:34.100 efforts to radically

00:14:35.360 alter the family

00:14:36.200 so that you don't have

00:14:37.260 maternal and paternal

00:14:38.820 presence

00:14:39.340 stably in the child's life

00:14:41.040 are so unwise,

00:14:43.740 so you know

00:14:44.340 maybe there's a scenario

00:14:45.440 where

00:14:46.000 we have artificial

00:14:48.300 wombs available

00:14:49.060 to relieve women

00:14:50.740 of the

00:14:51.640 the pain

00:14:53.460 and difficulty

00:14:54.100 of gestation

00:14:55.000 but I still

00:14:55.820 I think that

00:14:56.760 you know

00:14:57.240 assuming that the child

00:14:58.220 that comes out

00:14:58.720 of that artificial womb

00:14:59.540 is psychologically normal

00:15:00.640 they also need

00:15:02.340 basically a psychologically

00:15:03.340 normal social experience

00:15:04.640 going forward

00:15:05.120 so I didn't that means

00:15:05.980 I don't think

00:15:06.660 that would be any reason

00:15:07.520 to tinker with the family.

00:15:08.480 So a side question

00:15:10.980 or related question

00:15:11.920 to this

00:15:12.240 because I asked my wife

00:15:13.220 this recently

00:15:14.060 in a world

00:15:16.280 where women

00:15:17.760 just like assuming

00:15:18.580 like we had artificial

00:15:19.480 wombs or something like that

00:15:20.100 in a world

00:15:20.540 in which

00:15:21.060 we don't need women

00:15:22.680 to have kids

00:15:23.460 what are some of the things

00:15:24.700 because you're talking

00:15:25.220 about evolutionary psychology

00:15:26.340 that you think women

00:15:27.880 do better than men

00:15:29.200 like what areas

00:15:30.900 would a biologically

00:15:31.860 modern woman

00:15:32.820 always outcompete

00:15:34.580 a biologically modern man

00:15:36.300 in terms of utility

00:15:37.840 to society?

00:15:39.880 I can't remember

00:15:40.320 where I heard this from

00:15:41.060 so I might be getting it wrong

00:15:42.000 but I believe that

00:15:44.800 in terms of the ability

00:15:47.300 to read other people's emotions

00:15:48.980 an 130 IQ man

00:15:52.360 is comparable

00:15:53.040 to a 70 IQ woman

00:15:54.620 I couldn't believe that

00:15:56.780 right

00:15:57.400 like an intellectually

00:15:59.820 disabled woman

00:16:00.960 can read someone else's

00:16:02.260 emotions better than

00:16:03.280 you know

00:16:03.880 a highly gifted man

00:16:04.800 right

00:16:05.060 just one example

00:16:06.200 but that the

00:16:07.000 that's

00:16:08.920 that one that

00:16:09.520 it really rings true

00:16:10.360 actually

00:16:10.600 it's funny when I talk

00:16:11.360 to my husband

00:16:11.800 because my husband

00:16:12.420 and I are both

00:16:13.020 quite typically

00:16:14.000 feminine and masculine

00:16:14.980 like the only way

00:16:15.820 in which I'm

00:16:16.580 probably unusual for women

00:16:17.460 is I'm quite contrarian

00:16:18.500 but apart from that

00:16:20.400 we're both quite difficult

00:16:21.900 and we will often

00:16:23.180 have this scenario

00:16:23.820 where I will

00:16:24.700 like interpret

00:16:27.020 someone's emotions

00:16:27.880 and he completely

00:16:28.660 misses it

00:16:29.300 because of that gap

00:16:31.240 like you know

00:16:32.000 that's one example

00:16:33.000 of it

00:16:33.200 I mean I often say

00:16:34.680 right

00:16:34.940 the thing that has

00:16:36.500 like undermined men

00:16:38.160 the most in the modern era

00:16:39.200 the thing that makes

00:16:39.900 men feel as if they are

00:16:41.180 superfluous

00:16:41.720 because in a sense

00:16:42.220 sometimes they are

00:16:42.880 is not feminism

00:16:44.160 it's actually

00:16:44.800 it's actually economic change

00:16:46.220 it's actually the fact

00:16:46.860 that we now have

00:16:47.560 a service-based economy

00:16:48.700 mostly

00:16:49.160 which doesn't need

00:16:50.480 male muscle

00:16:51.160 but does need

00:16:52.840 the conscientiousness

00:16:54.380 and agreeableness

00:16:55.020 that women

00:16:55.980 tend to manifest more of

00:16:58.000 yeah we have a sales org

00:17:00.620 within our company

00:17:01.280 and women perform

00:17:02.820 outperform men

00:17:04.060 at least for us

00:17:05.140 within the sales organization

00:17:06.620 that we have

00:17:07.100 and it's something

00:17:08.480 you point about

00:17:08.960 like what are the male traits

00:17:10.480 where I think

00:17:10.920 pretty undeniably

00:17:11.840 people would say

00:17:12.300 men do better

00:17:12.860 you know whether

00:17:13.340 it's physical strengths

00:17:14.500 or bravery

00:17:15.120 or courage

00:17:15.940 like these are things

00:17:16.860 that are not

00:17:17.620 as rewarded

00:17:18.860 and in the industries

00:17:20.300 in which they are rewarded

00:17:21.760 men vastly outperform women

00:17:24.800 in terms of

00:17:25.620 and that's why you see

00:17:26.360 these high death rates

00:17:27.200 in these industries

00:17:27.820 I also really like

00:17:29.160 sort of your framing

00:17:29.900 as women

00:17:30.440 as sort of the

00:17:31.100 emotional custodians

00:17:32.560 of our species

00:17:33.260 and our culture

00:17:35.040 which is

00:17:36.320 a very interesting take

00:17:38.000 I think that it's also

00:17:40.140 a

00:17:40.820 I mean

00:17:43.880 it's

00:17:44.780 I'm writing an essay

00:17:46.360 at the moment

00:17:46.820 it sounds like a joke

00:17:47.700 but I'm kind of

00:17:48.960 of the opinion

00:17:49.460 that

00:17:49.960 modern life

00:17:51.800 induces something

00:17:52.900 like gender dysphoria

00:17:54.100 in almost everyone

00:17:55.900 I love that

00:17:58.000 I want to hear more

00:17:59.940 so

00:18:01.140 an example would be

00:18:03.300 you know

00:18:03.740 the male drive

00:18:05.000 towards

00:18:05.820 being

00:18:06.580 doing sort of

00:18:07.300 outdoor physical stuff

00:18:08.720 like

00:18:09.100 I mean

00:18:10.620 you don't want to be

00:18:11.520 too reductive about it

00:18:12.500 obviously there are

00:18:13.500 changes

00:18:14.200 there have been changes

00:18:15.340 to our psychology

00:18:16.000 since we left the savannah

00:18:17.680 you know

00:18:18.200 obviously we're not

00:18:19.060 exactly hunter-gatherers

00:18:20.400 psychologically

00:18:20.940 evolution can

00:18:22.120 can act surprisingly fast

00:18:23.720 sometimes right

00:18:24.380 but

00:18:25.480 you know

00:18:26.900 the basic things

00:18:27.840 I always think

00:18:28.380 when you look at a list

00:18:29.220 of sort of

00:18:29.980 ways to resolve

00:18:31.040 depression and anxiety

00:18:32.120 the list of things

00:18:33.840 that you're advised to do

00:18:34.840 are basically

00:18:35.440 the list of things

00:18:36.320 that would comprise

00:18:37.520 a standard hunter-gatherer

00:18:38.600 day

00:18:38.900 right

00:18:39.700 like being outside

00:18:41.060 exercising

00:18:42.420 socializing with other people

00:18:44.200 sitting around a campfire

00:18:45.920 you know

00:18:46.380 all this kind of stuff

00:18:47.560 which people

00:18:48.360 which people have

00:18:49.520 hormonally respond to

00:18:50.660 really positively

00:18:51.380 but which

00:18:52.240 which aren't a part

00:18:53.640 of a standard

00:18:54.440 modern day

00:18:55.060 and so for men

00:18:56.420 you know

00:18:56.600 that includes things

00:18:57.320 like hunting

00:18:58.420 and fishing

00:18:58.940 and like

00:19:00.660 being with male friends

00:19:02.260 and all this kind of stuff

00:19:02.980 which

00:19:03.160 which they are largely

00:19:04.380 denied

00:19:04.880 in a very

00:19:06.440 gender neutral

00:19:07.500 modern economy

00:19:09.140 which also

00:19:11.000 in which the

00:19:12.000 extended family

00:19:12.800 has basically

00:19:13.400 collapsed as well

00:19:14.480 that's something

00:19:14.780 we can also go into

00:19:15.520 right

00:19:15.680 because that's very

00:19:16.140 relevant to the whole

00:19:17.000 birth rates question

00:19:18.020 and similarly for women

00:19:19.520 like I

00:19:19.960 it is my strong

00:19:21.960 intuition for instance

00:19:23.020 that one of the things

00:19:24.160 that is driving

00:19:24.820 the famed

00:19:26.500 poor mental health

00:19:27.740 of teenage girls

00:19:28.640 it is Instagram

00:19:29.940 and all of this kind of stuff

00:19:30.960 I agree with that

00:19:31.600 I think it's also

00:19:32.720 that teenage girls

00:19:33.540 historically

00:19:34.120 would have spent a lot of time

00:19:35.280 around young children

00:19:36.220 like one of the things

00:19:37.240 that's very

00:19:37.760 one of the ways

00:19:39.460 in which teenage girls

00:19:40.320 are useful

00:19:40.920 in a kind of traditional

00:19:42.100 setup

00:19:42.500 not even that traditional

00:19:43.280 right

00:19:43.560 is in providing childcare

00:19:45.240 and

00:19:46.360 I mean

00:19:47.560 I'm not also

00:19:48.380 personally

00:19:48.780 I'm sure you agree

00:19:49.420 that I've

00:19:49.860 being around little children

00:19:50.860 is joyful

00:19:51.580 right

00:19:52.120 it's like

00:19:52.520 it is hard work

00:19:53.360 and everything

00:19:53.760 but it is joyful

00:19:54.920 like it gives you

00:19:55.580 an intense sense

00:19:56.360 of satisfaction

00:19:56.960 I always find

00:19:57.980 that days

00:19:58.420 when I

00:19:58.880 I really don't like

00:20:00.160 traveling for work

00:20:00.860 I try and avoid

00:20:01.440 doing it as much

00:20:02.040 as possible

00:20:02.360 because I don't

00:20:02.740 like being away

00:20:03.200 from my

00:20:03.540 my two-year-old

00:20:04.500 and I always find

00:20:05.900 that days

00:20:06.380 when I have been

00:20:07.100 just with him

00:20:08.880 not doing any

00:20:09.820 other kind of work

00:20:10.700 they're tiring

00:20:11.960 yes

00:20:12.240 but there's also

00:20:12.820 a sense of like

00:20:13.520 deep satisfaction

00:20:14.540 whereas days

00:20:15.800 when I'm not with him

00:20:16.580 when I'm off

00:20:17.200 somewhere else

00:20:17.680 I have this sense

00:20:18.360 of like

00:20:18.860 just kind of

00:20:20.640 bubbling anxiety

00:20:21.540 and it occurred to me

00:20:22.420 that this is gender dysphoria

00:20:23.640 basically right

00:20:24.440 like what my

00:20:25.440 what my mind

00:20:26.360 and my body

00:20:26.860 are longing for

00:20:27.960 are being around

00:20:29.600 my children

00:20:30.040 I

00:20:30.420 this is

00:20:32.300 I don't want to

00:20:33.540 compare it to the

00:20:34.300 gender dysphoria

00:20:34.840 that people

00:20:35.300 like

00:20:35.920 that trans people

00:20:37.120 can be very very acute

00:20:38.720 right

00:20:39.140 and I don't doubt

00:20:40.080 the existence

00:20:40.500 of that kind of

00:20:41.180 gender dysphoria

00:20:41.580 it's clearly real

00:20:42.260 what I'm talking about

00:20:44.260 is a kind of

00:20:45.000 environmental mismatch

00:20:47.580 which causes

00:20:48.740 mild anxiety

00:20:50.440 and depression

00:20:51.040 in both sexes

00:20:51.920 so I think the term

00:20:53.060 in the trans community

00:20:54.260 that you're looking for

00:20:55.060 is gender envy

00:20:55.820 which is

00:20:57.080 you might

00:20:57.900 in your environment

00:20:58.920 see idealizations

00:21:00.600 or even in your head

00:21:01.680 have sort of

00:21:02.120 an evoked set

00:21:02.780 of idealizations

00:21:03.580 of what it means

00:21:04.260 to be a woman

00:21:04.760 but you're not able

00:21:05.580 to enact those

00:21:07.540 in your daily life

00:21:08.460 which is really fascinating

00:21:09.940 another thing

00:21:10.520 that you said

00:21:11.080 that really had me

00:21:12.180 reflect on something

00:21:13.020 I hadn't realized

00:21:13.840 before

00:21:14.120 is you're talking

00:21:14.660 about teenage girls

00:21:15.700 caring for babies

00:21:17.260 and it got me thinking

00:21:18.400 I was like

00:21:18.720 okay

00:21:19.120 when does this

00:21:20.340 care for babies

00:21:21.600 response

00:21:22.920 differentially

00:21:24.600 begin to appear

00:21:25.660 in women

00:21:26.320 and I think

00:21:27.240 intuitively

00:21:27.720 I assumed

00:21:28.200 okay

00:21:28.460 it's around the age

00:21:29.320 they would probably

00:21:29.800 be having kids

00:21:30.660 right

00:21:30.980 like early 20s

00:21:32.120 but then I thought

00:21:33.040 I was like

00:21:33.340 no

00:21:33.980 prepubescent girls

00:21:35.740 have this desire

00:21:36.580 prepubescent girls

00:21:37.860 have baby dolls

00:21:39.000 that they care for

00:21:39.900 like it is

00:21:40.520 a very intense desire

00:21:42.000 from a very early age

00:21:44.080 for women

00:21:44.620 which I think

00:21:45.760 backs what you're

00:21:46.660 saying there

00:21:47.140 that women

00:21:48.000 are genetically

00:21:48.940 sort of coded

00:21:49.680 to care for kids

00:21:50.440 even at a younger age

00:21:51.620 and that the desire

00:21:52.940 to be away

00:21:54.000 from kids

00:21:54.580 really only seems

00:21:55.700 to get loud

00:21:56.300 in women

00:21:56.780 during the period

00:21:57.680 in which they're

00:21:58.180 trying to

00:21:58.880 distance themselves

00:21:59.960 from their families

00:22:00.760 yeah

00:22:01.540 I mean

00:22:02.220 there clearly

00:22:02.640 are exceptions

00:22:03.380 there clearly

00:22:03.840 are some women

00:22:04.360 who don't have

00:22:04.860 that kind of

00:22:05.540 maternal instinct

00:22:06.240 which is presumably

00:22:07.080 being heavily

00:22:07.780 selected against

00:22:08.620 right

00:22:08.880 during the current

00:22:09.440 evolutionary bottleneck

00:22:10.540 those women exist

00:22:12.500 those women

00:22:13.000 are also

00:22:13.320 disproportionately

00:22:14.020 found in positions

00:22:14.860 of influence

00:22:15.580 because they tend

00:22:16.620 to also have more

00:22:17.660 one they don't have

00:22:18.660 like having children

00:22:19.460 does delay your

00:22:20.340 career progression

00:22:21.260 it just does

00:22:21.940 like there's a

00:22:22.340 straightforward

00:22:22.640 sort of collision

00:22:23.980 between the

00:22:25.240 family life

00:22:26.420 and the labour market

00:22:27.180 but also because

00:22:28.680 they're likely

00:22:29.600 to have other traits

00:22:30.680 that are more masculine

00:22:31.540 in terms of being

00:22:32.580 more competitive

00:22:33.100 and whatever

00:22:33.440 they're more likely

00:22:34.200 to end up at the

00:22:34.820 top of the tree

00:22:35.420 professionally

00:22:35.980 and it does

00:22:37.080 it is unfortunate

00:22:37.940 because it means

00:22:38.660 that you know

00:22:39.160 one of my

00:22:39.540 one of my friends

00:22:40.100 who works in politics

00:22:40.760 likes to say

00:22:41.360 that probably

00:22:41.800 the least well

00:22:42.600 represented demographic

00:22:43.680 in all of British

00:22:44.520 politics and indeed

00:22:45.600 you know

00:22:46.000 I'm sure politics

00:22:46.620 elsewhere

00:22:47.000 are stay-at-home mums

00:22:48.280 because sort of

00:22:49.420 definitionally

00:22:49.940 there are no

00:22:50.320 stay-at-home mums

00:22:50.940 in parliament

00:22:51.440 and it's also

00:22:52.600 very rare

00:22:53.180 to have

00:22:53.600 even former

00:22:54.920 stay-at-home mums

00:22:55.920 in parliament

00:22:56.940 it's just not a group

00:22:58.080 that you hear from

00:22:58.940 and so

00:22:59.360 the women

00:23:00.060 who would say

00:23:01.020 you know

00:23:01.440 actually I basically

00:23:02.520 get the greatest

00:23:03.160 satisfaction

00:23:03.760 what I really want

00:23:05.140 to do

00:23:05.540 is basically

00:23:06.100 live a traditional

00:23:07.020 traditional life

00:23:08.120 you know

00:23:08.500 which doesn't

00:23:09.320 necessarily mean

00:23:10.000 you know

00:23:10.280 let's let's always

00:23:11.360 remember

00:23:11.660 it doesn't

00:23:11.940 necessarily mean

00:23:12.600 the feminine mystique

00:23:13.780 isolation in the

00:23:14.580 suburbs life

00:23:15.180 it's more like

00:23:15.820 the being

00:23:17.620 you know

00:23:18.120 being around

00:23:19.800 your sisters

00:23:20.880 and cousins

00:23:21.360 and looking after

00:23:22.000 children

00:23:22.400 right

00:23:23.120 and kind of

00:23:23.740 incorporating that

00:23:24.460 with other

00:23:24.900 work around

00:23:25.820 around the

00:23:27.420 household

00:23:27.980 like that

00:23:28.480 that basic

00:23:29.540 lifestyle setup

00:23:30.420 I think actually

00:23:31.340 a lot of women

00:23:32.180 enormously

00:23:33.760 prefer that

00:23:34.320 to the girl

00:23:34.820 boy's life

00:23:35.360 this brings me

00:23:36.420 to a really

00:23:36.880 interesting

00:23:37.560 realization

00:23:38.400 which is

00:23:40.620 that if you're

00:23:41.480 like promoting

00:23:42.040 feminism

00:23:42.460 if you look at

00:23:43.320 where women

00:23:44.440 are most

00:23:44.860 discriminated

00:23:45.500 in our society

00:23:46.200 like the category

00:23:47.080 or traits

00:23:48.280 of women

00:23:48.640 that are most

00:23:49.020 discriminated

00:23:49.540 in our society

00:23:50.280 they are the

00:23:51.380 traits that we

00:23:52.240 associate with

00:23:53.420 motherhood

00:23:54.000 and with women

00:23:55.220 who have gone

00:23:56.040 down this

00:23:56.800 motherhood

00:23:57.340 pathway

00:23:57.880 if you're

00:23:59.120 at a company

00:23:59.680 or you're in

00:24:00.160 Hollywood right

00:24:00.740 like suppose

00:24:01.280 we're screening

00:24:01.820 for who gets

00:24:02.800 to be the next

00:24:03.580 big female

00:24:04.360 star

00:24:04.840 right

00:24:05.180 you know

00:24:05.420 they're looking

00:24:05.960 for a woman

00:24:06.680 who has

00:24:07.640 small breasts

00:24:08.580 and is aggressive

00:24:09.360 and like doesn't

00:24:10.280 care about children

00:24:11.080 and like

00:24:11.780 like there's a very

00:24:12.760 specific type

00:24:14.000 that Hollywood

00:24:14.680 is casting

00:24:15.320 as the woman

00:24:16.160 and then our

00:24:17.100 society begins

00:24:18.040 to build

00:24:18.440 this is what

00:24:19.000 a powerful woman

00:24:19.820 looks like

00:24:20.680 which is

00:24:21.800 antagonistic

00:24:22.940 to what I think

00:24:23.740 many people would

00:24:24.240 think of like a

00:24:24.660 trad woman

00:24:25.160 or a matronly woman

00:24:26.040 or something like

00:24:26.540 that you know

00:24:26.900 mother matriarch

00:24:27.560 your podcast name

00:24:29.140 and this group

00:24:31.260 of women

00:24:31.700 is just completely

00:24:32.940 ignored

00:24:33.760 and discriminated

00:24:35.600 against within

00:24:36.400 even career

00:24:37.620 environments

00:24:38.100 because there's

00:24:38.560 women who

00:24:39.260 fall into these

00:24:40.820 aesthetic

00:24:41.300 and life choice

00:24:42.460 trends

00:24:42.980 but who still

00:24:43.700 have to work

00:24:44.240 to support

00:24:44.720 their family

00:24:45.240 and I think

00:24:46.040 in those

00:24:46.320 environments

00:24:46.800 they're often

00:24:47.460 held back

00:24:48.320 from positions

00:24:49.920 of influence

00:24:50.540 or positions

00:24:51.140 of being seen

00:24:52.080 and yet

00:24:53.060 the modern

00:24:53.640 feminist movement

00:24:54.440 is not going

00:24:55.300 to support

00:24:56.280 those women

00:24:56.880 or call out

00:24:58.440 this level

00:24:59.320 of like

00:25:00.200 we have no

00:25:00.800 heroes right now

00:25:01.600 we have no

00:25:01.980 heroes who are

00:25:02.480 mothers

00:25:02.740 if you look

00:25:03.560 at the strong

00:25:04.220 women in media

00:25:05.140 they are not

00:25:05.740 mothers

00:25:06.060 they are not

00:25:06.600 taking on

00:25:07.100 a feminine role

00:25:07.960 or if they

00:25:08.500 are mothers

00:25:08.920 they don't

00:25:09.300 talk about it

00:25:09.960 and they kind

00:25:10.380 of have to

00:25:10.860 not talk

00:25:11.220 about it

00:25:11.560 or they

00:25:11.960 won't be

00:25:12.320 able to

00:25:12.560 advance

00:25:12.880 easily

00:25:13.320 listen

00:25:13.900 I want

00:25:14.180 to hear

00:25:14.320 more from

00:25:14.680 you

00:25:14.860 one thing

00:25:16.680 I'm really

00:25:16.960 curious about

00:25:17.600 Louise

00:25:17.840 is what

00:25:18.620 you think

00:25:19.140 would be

00:25:19.620 ideal for

00:25:20.540 women in

00:25:20.940 the future

00:25:21.220 there's like

00:25:21.680 a lot of

00:25:22.000 dystopias

00:25:22.420 that we're

00:25:22.640 really afraid

00:25:23.200 about

00:25:23.480 right

00:25:23.700 we're afraid

00:25:24.100 about

00:25:24.280 women's

00:25:25.120 reproductive

00:25:25.540 freedom

00:25:25.900 being taken

00:25:26.400 away

00:25:26.700 as nations

00:25:27.440 get desperate

00:25:28.000 for taxpayers

00:25:28.780 you know

00:25:29.180 China's already

00:25:30.040 starting to

00:25:31.580 revoke access

00:25:32.160 to vasectomies

00:25:33.120 and birth

00:25:34.040 control

00:25:34.440 and abortions

00:25:35.400 so like

00:25:35.780 we're getting

00:25:36.140 there

00:25:36.480 we know

00:25:37.380 what we

00:25:37.640 don't want

00:25:38.240 and Malcolm

00:25:39.100 and I have

00:25:39.360 a vision

00:25:39.660 for what

00:25:40.000 we want

00:25:40.360 but it

00:25:40.740 is much

00:25:41.080 more extreme

00:25:41.700 than you

00:25:42.680 know

00:25:42.780 generally

00:25:43.180 your take

00:25:43.920 so we're

00:25:44.300 curious to

00:25:44.880 hear you

00:25:46.000 know the

00:25:46.240 reasonable

00:25:46.600 person's

00:25:47.140 take on

00:25:47.560 what is

00:25:48.200 an ideal

00:25:48.940 we'd say

00:25:50.120 pro-woman

00:25:50.820 future

00:25:51.220 you know

00:25:52.100 in a hundred

00:25:52.500 years or so

00:25:53.420 in 50 years

00:25:54.020 or a hundred

00:25:54.360 years

00:25:54.660 is it more

00:25:55.760 structured or

00:25:56.380 less structured

00:25:56.980 more strict

00:25:57.620 or less strict

00:25:58.200 are women

00:25:58.600 in the home

00:25:59.800 or are they

00:26:00.900 given tons of

00:26:01.460 choice

00:26:01.940 like what do

00:26:02.560 you think

00:26:02.940 would lead

00:26:04.080 to the best

00:26:04.480 outcome

00:26:05.080 and obviously

00:26:05.840 what's difficult

00:26:06.860 about this

00:26:07.300 is that

00:26:07.660 sometimes that

00:26:08.320 doesn't sound

00:26:08.780 like the best

00:26:09.460 or most politically

00:26:10.120 palatable today

00:26:10.940 but like try to

00:26:12.040 like try to tell me

00:26:12.620 what you think

00:26:12.880 would be best

00:26:13.300 for women's

00:26:13.840 actual mental

00:26:14.500 health

00:26:14.800 thriving

00:26:15.200 society

00:26:15.800 etc

00:26:16.100 it depends

00:26:18.940 on the

00:26:19.180 age

00:26:19.580 doesn't

00:26:19.840 it

00:26:19.960 I mean

00:26:20.140 that's

00:26:20.380 one of

00:26:20.600 the reasons

00:26:22.580 I chose

00:26:23.020 the name

00:26:23.280 for my

00:26:23.620 show

00:26:23.900 this recognition

00:26:24.680 that women

00:26:25.200 have quite

00:26:25.680 distinct

00:26:26.180 stages

00:26:26.640 in their

00:26:26.960 life cycles

00:26:27.520 which men

00:26:28.020 don't have

00:26:28.660 to quite

00:26:28.980 the same

00:26:29.300 degree

00:26:29.680 like being

00:26:30.260 a maiden

00:26:30.600 being a

00:26:30.960 mother

00:26:31.180 being a

00:26:31.480 matriarch

00:26:31.780 are quite

00:26:32.060 different

00:26:32.380 states

00:26:32.800 and I

00:26:34.480 think

00:26:34.640 one of

00:26:35.140 the

00:26:35.400 one of

00:26:37.360 the mistakes

00:26:38.080 that

00:26:38.480 that liberal

00:26:40.280 modern society

00:26:41.200 makes

00:26:41.820 in relation

00:26:43.260 to both

00:26:43.740 young men

00:26:44.640 and young

00:26:45.040 women

00:26:45.280 but I

00:26:45.520 would say

00:26:45.800 maybe more

00:26:46.360 young women

00:26:46.840 because one

00:26:47.560 of the

00:26:47.760 really distinctive

00:26:48.320 features of

00:26:48.980 say teenage

00:26:49.620 girl psychology

00:26:50.600 is being

00:26:51.680 extremely

00:26:52.220 impressionable

00:26:53.020 teenage boys

00:26:54.360 tend to be

00:26:55.520 you know

00:26:56.140 reckless

00:26:56.480 or like

00:26:57.200 various

00:26:57.560 you know

00:26:58.060 they have

00:26:59.000 their own

00:26:59.500 they have

00:27:00.140 their own

00:27:00.420 challenges

00:27:00.840 teenage girls

00:27:01.840 and I say

00:27:02.380 this as

00:27:02.660 someone who

00:27:02.940 used to be

00:27:03.320 a teenage

00:27:03.680 girl

00:27:04.060 are very

00:27:05.780 very susceptible

00:27:06.500 to peer

00:27:08.000 influence

00:27:08.660 and one of

00:27:09.800 the mistakes

00:27:10.320 that I think

00:27:10.700 we make

00:27:11.080 and that I

00:27:11.380 wrote a

00:27:11.820 a lot

00:27:12.120 about

00:27:12.300 in my

00:27:12.520 first

00:27:12.740 book

00:27:13.080 is

00:27:13.960 granting

00:27:16.520 actually

00:27:16.880 too much

00:27:17.500 freedom

00:27:17.800 to teenage

00:27:18.240 girls

00:27:18.580 to do

00:27:18.860 really

00:27:19.100 self-destructive

00:27:19.720 things

00:27:20.180 the challenge

00:27:21.420 there though

00:27:21.900 and so many

00:27:22.760 parents

00:27:23.240 who I speak

00:27:24.420 to

00:27:24.760 they do

00:27:25.800 know

00:27:26.140 that

00:27:26.360 actually

00:27:27.280 a 15

00:27:27.720 year old

00:27:28.040 girl

00:27:28.400 cannot

00:27:29.240 actually

00:27:29.660 make

00:27:29.880 good

00:27:30.060 sexual

00:27:30.340 choices

00:27:30.920 for instance

00:27:31.920 right

00:27:32.320 and it's

00:27:32.820 kind of

00:27:33.080 crazy

00:27:33.380 to expect

00:27:33.840 her to

00:27:34.200 and we

00:27:35.240 only let

00:27:35.780 15

00:27:36.140 year old

00:27:36.420 girls

00:27:36.920 make

00:27:37.440 independent

00:27:38.180 sexual

00:27:38.440 choices

00:27:38.780 because

00:27:39.080 we have

00:27:39.600 access to

00:27:40.020 contraception

00:27:40.500 and abortion

00:27:40.900 right

00:27:41.300 in any

00:27:41.920 other

00:27:42.240 circumstance

00:27:42.960 where those

00:27:43.660 sexual choices

00:27:44.220 are likely

00:27:44.640 to lead

00:27:45.040 to a

00:27:45.860 baby

00:27:46.160 that's the

00:27:46.540 community's

00:27:47.020 problem

00:27:47.380 like there's

00:27:48.740 so much more

00:27:49.760 limits placed on

00:27:50.360 your woman

00:27:50.660 right

00:27:50.820 right

00:27:51.200 but obviously

00:27:53.740 there are

00:27:54.140 enormous

00:27:54.480 costs

00:27:55.080 to

00:27:55.800 that

00:27:56.160 I think

00:27:56.380 you

00:27:56.480 describe it

00:27:56.940 in your

00:27:57.180 book

00:27:57.380 as the

00:27:57.640 hard

00:27:57.880 societies

00:27:58.420 am I

00:27:58.720 remembering

00:27:59.060 right

00:27:59.260 yeah

00:27:59.400 like yeah

00:28:00.820 hard cultures

00:28:01.520 are

00:28:01.940 are

00:28:02.560 are

00:28:03.060 hardcore

00:28:04.000 right

00:28:04.520 like and we

00:28:05.680 and I

00:28:06.180 and I very much

00:28:07.280 enjoy not living

00:28:08.260 in a culture

00:28:08.680 where I'm at

00:28:09.120 where I'm at

00:28:09.880 constrained

00:28:10.320 it's a really

00:28:11.440 difficult balancing

00:28:12.140 app because you

00:28:12.720 need

00:28:13.100 you need

00:28:14.060 cultural

00:28:14.520 templates

00:28:15.060 you need

00:28:16.180 guardrails

00:28:17.020 you need

00:28:18.000 certain

00:28:18.420 expectations

00:28:19.120 that are

00:28:19.660 kind of

00:28:20.160 socially enforced

00:28:22.040 what you don't

00:28:23.320 want is you

00:28:23.940 know Iranian

00:28:24.480 morality police

00:28:25.420 or whatever

00:28:26.240 yeah well

00:28:26.920 and I think

00:28:28.360 something that

00:28:28.860 you're catching

00:28:29.340 there when you're

00:28:29.800 talking about

00:28:30.060 the three stages

00:28:30.640 of a woman's

00:28:31.200 life is that

00:28:32.200 organically a

00:28:33.500 society you know

00:28:34.440 you talk about

00:28:34.880 evolutionary psychology

00:28:35.760 two men

00:28:37.240 a maid

00:28:38.440 the maid

00:28:39.040 stage of a

00:28:39.560 woman's life

00:28:40.060 is always the

00:28:40.680 most valuable

00:28:41.340 because that's

00:28:42.040 the stage like

00:28:42.620 if my wife

00:28:43.380 died the

00:28:44.460 women who

00:28:45.000 would be most

00:28:45.540 attracted to me

00:28:46.440 would not

00:28:47.000 be women of

00:28:47.840 her age

00:28:48.380 they would be

00:28:48.880 women with

00:28:49.320 the highest

00:28:49.660 fertility window

00:28:50.500 like this

00:28:51.060 due to

00:28:51.940 evolutionary

00:28:52.380 reasons right

00:28:53.320 so if I'm a

00:28:53.960 guy and I'm

00:28:54.580 going to get

00:28:55.000 distracted by a

00:28:55.980 woman in a

00:28:56.440 billboard it's

00:28:57.420 going to be a

00:28:58.160 young looking

00:28:59.040 woman right

00:28:59.860 who doesn't

00:29:00.360 look like she's

00:29:00.880 had kids with

00:29:01.480 someone else

00:29:01.980 because that

00:29:02.880 lowers the

00:29:03.460 woman's value

00:29:04.420 to me as a

00:29:05.600 even a

00:29:06.400 potential replacement

00:29:07.240 for a wife

00:29:07.900 that I've

00:29:08.160 already had

00:29:08.800 so what

00:29:10.280 they just

00:29:11.480 sort of

00:29:11.800 organically

00:29:12.440 society is

00:29:13.080 always going

00:29:13.480 to promote

00:29:13.900 that one

00:29:14.440 stage of a

00:29:15.080 woman's life

00:29:15.780 and therefore

00:29:16.680 women can

00:29:17.220 think then

00:29:17.780 to be a

00:29:18.440 good woman

00:29:19.000 I must be

00:29:19.820 the optimal

00:29:20.480 maid

00:29:21.020 the perpetual

00:29:21.500 maid

00:29:21.980 yeah

00:29:22.260 yeah

00:29:22.660 exactly

00:29:23.140 and I think

00:29:23.720 that one of

00:29:24.180 the ways in

00:29:25.340 which our

00:29:25.600 culture is not

00:29:26.340 well set up

00:29:27.140 for family

00:29:28.440 formation is

00:29:29.580 that we do

00:29:30.160 encourage perpetual

00:29:31.140 maidenhood even

00:29:32.340 though it's not

00:29:32.860 possible

00:29:33.260 I mean it's

00:29:34.100 kind of partly

00:29:35.020 possible through

00:29:35.660 contraception and

00:29:36.360 Botox and

00:29:36.900 whatever but

00:29:37.400 like not really

00:29:38.080 like there is

00:29:38.720 a shelf life

00:29:39.800 you can't pull

00:29:40.560 it off

00:29:40.920 like an argument

00:29:41.880 that I've had

00:29:42.860 friends make to

00:29:43.420 me that I

00:29:43.700 think is

00:29:43.920 really compelling

00:29:44.460 is you can

00:29:45.560 be you can

00:29:46.440 get the best

00:29:46.920 plastic surgery

00:29:47.680 you can be

00:29:48.220 have also just

00:29:49.120 have won the

00:29:49.900 genetic lottery

00:29:50.560 but if you are

00:29:51.860 a 45 year old

00:29:52.660 woman who looks

00:29:53.740 amazing she's

00:29:54.820 you're still not

00:29:55.520 going to beat a

00:29:56.460 you know 23 year

00:29:57.760 old 21 year old

00:29:58.840 girl like it's a

00:30:00.500 losing game yeah

00:30:01.440 and I think it's a

00:30:03.180 very psychologically

00:30:03.760 damaging game to

00:30:04.620 try and play because

00:30:05.400 you do reach a

00:30:06.160 point when you're in

00:30:06.980 say your late 30s

00:30:08.020 where you know that

00:30:08.720 you're losing it and

00:30:09.560 you sort of have no

00:30:10.300 other source of

00:30:10.880 status and a lot

00:30:13.160 of this is to do

00:30:13.720 with the fact that

00:30:14.120 we don't assign

00:30:14.780 enough status to

00:30:15.480 mothers yeah

00:30:16.460 which completely

00:30:17.200 yeah within

00:30:18.740 feminism

00:30:19.220 motivation

00:30:19.860 except mostly

00:30:20.540 yeah

00:30:20.840 right right

00:30:22.840 right so a

00:30:23.820 healthy culture

00:30:24.560 would be one

00:30:25.380 where there are

00:30:27.300 life stage

00:30:29.520 specific cultural

00:30:30.720 expectations that

00:30:31.880 are enforced

00:30:32.320 through norms

00:30:33.020 not through laws

00:30:34.040 I suppose because

00:30:36.160 I because the

00:30:37.160 law is a very

00:30:37.680 blunt instrument

00:30:38.560 whereas cultural

00:30:40.220 templates can be

00:30:42.200 potentially malleable

00:30:43.280 you know I want

00:30:44.060 there to be like

00:30:44.600 we we we all

00:30:45.780 recognize you know

00:30:46.520 like what's the

00:30:49.280 stonewall line gay

00:30:50.140 people exist get

00:30:50.980 used to it like

00:30:51.660 that's true you

00:30:52.540 know it is true

00:30:53.460 that that that

00:30:54.220 like that

00:30:55.600 homosexuality is

00:30:56.920 present across

00:30:57.740 human societies and

00:30:58.780 indeed across other

00:30:59.660 other species right

00:31:00.660 and you need

00:31:02.060 societies that can

00:31:02.920 say simultaneously

00:31:03.800 it's really good to

00:31:06.320 get married and have

00:31:06.900 children but also

00:31:07.940 not persecute people

00:31:08.980 who don't because

00:31:10.000 they're because

00:31:10.660 they're gay or

00:31:11.000 lesbian right and

00:31:12.720 that's it that's a

00:31:13.380 challenging balance

00:31:14.360 and it like you look

00:31:15.540 around at cultures

00:31:16.280 around the world and

00:31:16.900 there aren't that

00:31:17.380 many that managed to

00:31:18.340 properly strike that

00:31:19.100 balance so like we

00:31:21.080 have a real task

00:31:21.760 it's funny you should

00:31:23.080 mention this because

00:31:24.000 we have culture

00:31:24.760 warriors in our

00:31:25.320 society that are

00:31:25.840 doing this so when

00:31:26.520 we were in London we

00:31:27.320 did a show with

00:31:28.480 Pearl Davis just

00:31:29.640 pearly thing show

00:31:30.420 and one of the

00:31:31.680 segments of the

00:31:32.340 show was just

00:31:33.600 showing the audience

00:31:34.960 pictures of women

00:31:36.560 women who were

00:31:37.100 mothers or who

00:31:38.500 were middle-aged

00:31:39.540 and married in

00:31:41.420 scantily clad

00:31:42.300 outfits that they

00:31:43.440 had posted to

00:31:44.100 like Instagram and

00:31:45.360 shaming them for

00:31:46.220 it really interesting

00:31:47.140 it was like seeing

00:31:47.740 that what that

00:31:48.720 mechanism right there

00:31:49.980 and it wasn't even

00:31:50.660 like them posing in

00:31:53.180 a slutty way or

00:31:54.060 anything it was just

00:31:54.580 like you know you

00:31:56.100 are middle-aged

00:31:57.380 you're a mother like

00:31:58.340 should you be wearing

00:31:59.060 a bikini and

00:31:59.860 posting it on social

00:32:00.880 media it wasn't just

00:32:01.640 wearing a bikini it

00:32:02.400 was should you be

00:32:02.940 posting a picture of

00:32:03.880 yourself on social

00:32:04.840 media wearing a

00:32:05.960 bikini I never

00:32:06.920 would have made

00:32:07.200 that connection

00:32:07.680 that's so funny

00:32:08.800 yeah yeah well and

00:32:09.780 she did it asking

00:32:10.540 which I think was an

00:32:11.180 important question and

00:32:12.060 I think in a way you

00:32:13.040 know even more base

00:32:13.880 than us because

00:32:14.540 Simone even you were

00:32:15.260 like well I think

00:32:15.920 it's okay within the

00:32:16.940 rules of our existing

00:32:17.740 I might have been

00:32:19.180 that more Simone was

00:32:19.880 a little more harsh

00:32:20.540 but but she was

00:32:21.580 pointing out she's

00:32:22.140 like if they're

00:32:22.820 posting something like

00:32:23.840 this and they're

00:32:24.420 already married they're

00:32:25.840 posting this for

00:32:26.800 sexual validation from

00:32:28.280 other men like that's

00:32:29.800 what this is about

00:32:30.840 and we do need to

00:32:32.520 shame that as a

00:32:33.220 society

00:32:33.660 yeah I mean

00:32:35.940 the the painful

00:32:37.020 truth is and I'm

00:32:38.200 kind of reluctant to

00:32:39.120 completely spell it

00:32:39.860 out because it it

00:32:41.680 does upset people

00:32:43.820 rightly is that you

00:32:46.100 know slut shaming for

00:32:48.460 instance is a social

00:32:49.300 it's like a social

00:32:50.060 technology right like

00:32:52.020 it's hard to persuade

00:32:54.820 going back to the

00:32:55.460 impressionability of

00:32:56.280 teenage girls right if

00:32:57.740 you're trying if you

00:32:58.580 really really want your

00:32:59.460 daughter to make good

00:33:00.300 sexual decisions because

00:33:01.420 you have the recognition

00:33:02.500 of how consequential those

00:33:03.860 decisions are right even in

00:33:05.340 a world with abortion

00:33:06.000 and contraception you

00:33:06.760 know going back to

00:33:09.260 wrong guy's flat could

00:33:10.380 be potentially lethal

00:33:11.680 aside from all the

00:33:13.100 other distress that it

00:33:13.820 can cause if you

00:33:15.080 really want her to make

00:33:15.900 good sexual decisions

00:33:16.760 you you can try

00:33:18.360 sitting her down and

00:33:19.620 saying here are all the

00:33:20.940 terrible things that

00:33:21.480 could happen if you

00:33:21.980 make bad sexual

00:33:22.540 decisions but knowing

00:33:23.340 teenagers as we do we

00:33:25.240 know that that's not

00:33:25.900 very likely to actually

00:33:26.820 make much of an impact

00:33:27.660 on her decision making

00:33:28.500 or you can have a

00:33:30.120 culture of slut shaming

00:33:30.980 which is what like most

00:33:32.780 cultures come up with and

00:33:33.880 it's enforced by other

00:33:34.880 teenage girls and like

00:33:37.340 and it's and it's quite

00:33:38.500 and it's like ugly and

00:33:39.420 painful which is why I'm

00:33:40.460 like I'm reluctant to

00:33:41.480 endorse it but I am

00:33:42.860 saying that this is like

00:33:44.200 that is why such such

00:33:46.120 social technologies exist

00:33:47.220 for precisely that

00:33:47.920 purpose yeah and there's

00:33:49.320 this really big tension

00:33:50.240 between what I see is

00:33:52.220 like more liberal culture

00:33:54.180 you know like let people

00:33:55.200 have choice let people do

00:33:56.560 what they want to do but

00:33:58.200 then what has sort of

00:33:58.920 become what Malcolm is

00:34:00.340 honed in on is like the

00:34:01.680 progressive movements

00:34:02.940 biggest value proposition

00:34:04.320 now subtly which is that

00:34:06.500 you need never feel pain

00:34:09.180 in the moment like do

00:34:10.480 whatever makes you feel

00:34:11.240 good now if something

00:34:12.080 triggers you don't engage

00:34:13.300 with it if someone's

00:34:14.600 bullying you we will stop

00:34:16.040 them and there's this

00:34:17.540 insane tension where like

00:34:19.200 you you can't have a

00:34:21.100 well-policed society you

00:34:22.460 can't prevent people from

00:34:23.520 doing bad things without

00:34:25.680 either having an insane

00:34:27.160 law which is probably not

00:34:29.020 ideal because then you're

00:34:29.740 actually taking away

00:34:30.440 people's rights or shaming

00:34:31.740 them like you say and it

00:34:33.340 does it's it is really

00:34:34.220 interesting to like you

00:34:35.440 know hear you describe on

00:34:36.580 one hand you know like a

00:34:39.060 very reasonable like let's

00:34:40.340 you know socially police

00:34:41.280 thing policy and then like

00:34:42.460 to hear Malcolm reminding

00:34:44.120 me of this example of like

00:34:45.200 someone on the internet

00:34:46.080 who's seen is extremely

00:34:47.460 controversial like

00:34:48.580 extremely controversial

00:34:49.600 shaming women and like

00:34:51.420 that feeling so I remember

00:34:53.920 sitting in the show like at

00:34:55.020 the moment being like oh

00:34:55.900 wow we're doing this this is

00:34:57.060 okay this is I mean it's

00:34:58.940 crazy yeah I mean like sort

00:35:00.660 of traditional slut shaming

00:35:03.760 cultures combined with the

00:35:05.220 internet is a particularly

00:35:06.440 ugly product right because

00:35:09.500 because it's enormously

00:35:10.900 magnifying the the audience

00:35:13.880 and the and the consequent

00:35:15.280 distress to the women so yeah

00:35:17.380 I mean I'm not I'm also not

00:35:18.940 posting middle-aged ladies

00:35:20.580 bikini pics and kind of

00:35:21.720 encouraging people to make fun

00:35:23.300 of them but it's been

00:35:25.540 wonderful to have you on we'd

00:35:26.940 love to have you on again this

00:35:27.940 has been fantastic and I hope

00:35:32.140 all of you have a wonderful

00:35:33.460 day yeah and don't forget to

00:35:35.240 check out Maiden Mother

00:35:36.040 Matriarch and the case

00:35:37.260 against the sexual revolution

00:35:38.340 where you get a lot more

00:35:40.020 nuance on these subjects so if

00:35:42.080 you like the conversation don't

00:35:43.240 worry there's tons more

00:35:44.360 when you get a message and then

00:35:47.220 you like to read that

00:35:49.160 ancest test test it but if

00:35:50.660 you like to learn about

00:35:51.840 you're upcoming for y'

00:35:53.680 conference in summer

00:35:54.460 it's a �ались

00:35:54.760 going to share

00:35:55.740 night� вним

00:35:57.000 to share

00:35:57.800 freue

00:36:01.140 on and

00:36:03.020 with

00:36:04.080 you

00:36:06.460 you

00:36:07.140 you

00:36:08.580 you

Based Camp - January 29, 2024

The Future of Women - With Louise Perry

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