The Problem With Being a Pronatalist
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Summary
In this episode, we talk about the pro-natalist movement and why it's so low stress, and why we look so much younger and less stressed than Greta Thiel. We also talk about why there's no status hierarchy within the movement.
Transcript
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There's another thing about the pro-natalist movement, and that is what I'd call our Tucker
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It is about the way that the people from the urban monoculture dehumanize people outside
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of the urban monoculture to such an extent that they can only see them as like freaks
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and murderers, no matter how nice they're trying to be to them, and end up like murdering
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You're supposed to want to have children, and this is your ultimate goal in life.
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It is a very archaic idea, an old idea, and representation of a woman.
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So you, you're getting people to sign a pledge basically saying that they will not have children
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until the Canadian government takes serious action on climate change.
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He just hooked himself right into the wood chipper.
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It looked like it might have been one of the college kids.
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I am so excited to be talking with you again today back at our old location where we originally
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started filming, but now we have a hard connection.
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But one thing I wanted to think about today is the nature of running the pronatalists or being
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leading figures in the pronatalist movement and what that means.
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And why we look so much younger and less stressed than Greta Thiel.
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Yeah, because there was an article that came out in Politico about the pronatalist conference.
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And they noted, they're like, despite it being a fairly glum message, everyone seemed really
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Yeah, honestly, there was so much laughing, there was so much joking, there was so much
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lightheartedness, which is funny because demographic collapse is dire and scary.
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Yeah, it is like climate change, a very scary shift that if not properly planned for is going
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Oh yeah, millions of people are going to die slow and painful deaths because of this.
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Conservatively, actually, I'd say probably at least a billion people are going to die a
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slow and painful death over demographic collapse.
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And I'm like, okay, or you could look at every state's social security system, every state's
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How are they going to pay to keep their elderly alive?
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And they're not going to get medical treatments.
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That's what's going to happen as a result of all this.
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But you might say, then why is it such an upbeat movement?
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One, and this is something I really noticed at the event itself, is there is no status
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While in our Discord server, people do list how many kids they have.
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That really isn't a sign of status within the movement.
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Yeah, and one reason, and I just want to emphasize this because this is so freaking
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What matters is how many grandchildren and great-grandchildren you have.
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If you don't give your kids a great upbringing and they're not super stoked about passing on
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your culture and having their own kids, you've failed.
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So I don't care if you have one kid or you have 10 kids.
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Yeah, so one, I think it's the lack of status hierarchy.
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When I'm in environmentalist stuff, there's a status hierarchy in signaling how much you care
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about the environment and what you're doing for the environment, which is a very important
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part of these rallies and events and stuff like that.
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And it's actually the reason people go to them.
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That is an absolutely massive part of why it's so low stress.
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As to why there's no status hierarchy, I can only speculate, but it may be because at many
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of these other events, people who participate in them are participating in them in part because
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they have been rejected from other social communities.
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And so the validation that they get within this community is the only source of validation
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or place where they can really rank high from a social hierarchy perspective.
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So they really focus on masturbating that instinct.
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But within the pronatalist movement, at least as it stands right now, no one's really involved
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in it who isn't more famous or more successful was in another community.
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The second thing that we could talk about is if you look at the antinatalist movement,
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you can see that they have unusually high rates of sociopathy and narcissism and stuff
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And I suspect that if you looked at the pronatalist movement, you would see the exact opposite
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of unusually high rates of incredibly low anxiety.
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You're not going to be as motivated to have kids if you are depressed, if you struggle with
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So yeah, people who are having kids typically are doing pretty well mentally, financially,
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And I think a wave of nihilism has overtaken our society.
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And this wave of nihilism that is particularly popular among the youth to enter a community
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and the pronatalist community almost necessarily has almost no nihilism in their thinking, has
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Almost none of this, oh, the future isn't going to be great so long as we can fix it.
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I should note here that this wasn't just something that we noticed.
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Diana Fleischman said, quote, in a tweet, also, it's likely that the natalism conference had
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the lowest rate of personality and psychiatric disorders of any conference I have attended.
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And then Boduck said on Twitter, one interesting thing about natal con was that every single
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attendee was extremely healthy and attractive and well dressed, a welcome relief from normal
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But there's another thing about the pronatalist movement that's really interesting, and it
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puts it in quite a different position than other activist movements.
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And that is what I'd call our Tucker and Dale force of evil problem, where there is this
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scene in the movie where they're just trying to help these college kids, and the college
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kids think that they're like these horrible villains because they have stereotypes about
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They're basically, the movie is great if you are anti-urban monoculture.
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It is basically about the way that the people from the urban monoculture dehumanize other
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people outside of the urban monoculture to such an extent that they can only see them
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as like freaks and murderers, no matter how nice they're trying to be to them.
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Hey, now look, we don't want any trouble, all right?
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And so they all run out and try to kill these, but they say rednecks, right?
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These like basic, very well-meaning conservative people and end up like murdering themselves
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in the process while these other people are like trying to save them.
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And there's a scene where he comes back and he goes, I don't know what's going on.
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I think these people have like a suicide pact or something.
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And it reminds me of every day I come home to my wife.
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You're supposed to want to have children and this is your ultimate goal in life.
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It is a very archaic idea, an old idea and representation of a woman.
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And I'm out there, I'm trying to convince people, often from these cultural groups that
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don't want to have kids, and they will say these horribly mean things to me.
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And, uh, it's, there's no point in arguing back.
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There's no point in fighting back really post a point where that your arguments aren't
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going to land, because to you, they're killing themselves already.
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One of those suckers came running out of nowhere and speared themselves straight to
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They are in this act of sterilization, memetic sterilization or literal castration.
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I've had two consultations with two different doctors who offered contrasting opinions.
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I haven't experienced any sexual sensations, so when the doctors are saying an orgasm is
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like a sneeze, I don't even know what she's talking about.
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They have functionally put upon themselves the worst of the harms that I am trying to prevent.
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Some kid, he just hooked himself right into the wood chipper.
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It looked like it might have been one of the college kids.
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We live mentally in the future, in our future generations.
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That's where our minds are, and they literally are not there.
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So it's, there's, we sometimes, I feel like we should respond to emails from like a diligence
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But yeah, we've received some emails recently from antinatalists and whatnot where I'm like,
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I almost want to just send them back the video from the life of Brian with the crack suicide squad
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There's no point in engaging because they're not part of the discussion that we're having.
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So it's, it's, it's also just constantly when you're in online spaces, you generally end
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up feeling, I don't think you get the same negativity that other people get.
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So you, you're getting people to sign a pledge, basically saying that they will not have children
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until the Canadian government takes serious action on climate change.
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In the very beginning, I sent it out to a whole bunch, maybe like a hundred of my friends.
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Like in my generation, climate, your fear of climate change isn't an opinion.
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We don't, it's not like America where people start, like people are, you know, they choose
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So we're all, you know, all scared of what the future will hold.
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These kids are coming out here and they're killing themselves.
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Because when I read negativity in online spaces, generally my response is mentally, my thought
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is, okay, is this an idea that's going to spread, right?
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And then is this an idea that's going to spread to people who, if they didn't adopt it, would
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I'll see these people put out these horrible, vile opinions online.
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I'll see things like these protests at Columbia going on right now.
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Like they've already done the worst to themselves and they don't see it that way.
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They don't, because they don't, their conception of the way a human life works is very different
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We see a human life as being an intergenerational thing.
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It's this intergenerational cycle of improvement that we all have a duty to.
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Ours is a journey that spans generations where one story ends, another begins.
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All men indeed cannot be poets, inventors, or philanthropists, but all men can join in
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that gigantic and godlike work, the progress of creation.
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Whoever improves his own nature improves the universe of which he is a part.
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He who strives to subdue his evil passions, vile remnants of the old four-footed life, and
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He who endeavors to better his condition and make his children wiser and happier than himself,
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whatever may be his motives, he will have not lived in vain.
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But yeah, and I completely agree with that quote.
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I think that that is how I judge a life well-lived.
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And I don't, as we've talked about before, ship of Theseus and all that, Simone and I don't
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believe we are meaningfully the same people who existed 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
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And when I look at who I am today, and I contrast that person with who I was when I was my child's
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age, I don't think I am any more the same person as that person than I am my child.
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And so it's not that we think our children in the way that like many antinatalism framers,
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we think our children are continuations of us today.
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We just don't believe that humans are meaningfully that continuous to begin with.
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And so all we can do is live as sacrifices within every moment to try to improve this
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intergenerational unit, both myself in the future, but also my kids, my grandkids, everything
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I think there's another big reason why this is a low stress movement, especially when
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you compare it to other movements like environmentalism, is that inherently this is a non-coercive
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And by that, to win, you don't need to get everyone on board with your cause.
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You don't need to get even a majority, even a large minority of people to do something.
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And that in itself is very low stress, because it means that you're only getting those who
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are really enthusiastic to tap into good resources that may already exist.
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You're not forcing people who are not on board to get on board.
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And I think something really stressful about being, for example, someone who's trying to get
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Or let's say you're a vegan and you understand just how horrendous animal cruelty is when people
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are eating meat and you're trying to convince people to not eat meat.
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It's incredibly stressful to try to convince people to do anything.
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And the great thing about prenatalism is we're not forcing or trying to convince anyone who's
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We're just like, hey, if you're into kids, here's a community where you get rewarded for that.
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And imagine if you were a vegan and you got to achieve an end of animal cruelty by just
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getting to interact with other really enthusiastic vegans and trade vegan recipes and make really
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cool vegan foods and invent new vegan foods together instead of trying to get all these
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non-vegans to stop doing horrendous acts, right?
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I swear this scene reminds me of every time we have to talk to reporters and they're like,
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You see, you have to understand the Nazis killed people, lots of people.
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They go, oh, OK, you're violent, far right extremists.
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And I don't know if the term extremist applies, if it's just, you know, let's keep our civilization
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And what's worse is when these reporters are indoctrinated in the urban monoculture, not
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only do we sound just completely insane to them, but they're always like taking Simone
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aside and being like, OK, blink once if this is like a hostage situation, expecting that
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of course, no woman would sign up to associate with these kinds of ideas.
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So conversations with reporters always go a little like this.
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You must think that I'm some kind of moron who believes a story like that.
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You say you are just working when this kid ran up and stuffed his head into that wood chipper.
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And, and I think maybe they might be trying to kill the girl that we have inside.
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She can maybe explain the whole thing if I hadn't knocked her unconscious with a shovel.
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This is, I think, really a part, a place where people might misunderstand us is we are not
00:18:05.500
So by that, what I mean is a lot of people know that a core purpose of the movement is
00:18:11.340
Like we think that a diverse species, ethnically and culturally, had the better chance of surviving
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and will be more productive and will be less likely to turn fascist and authoritarian.
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When people hear that and they're like, oh, so you want to save absolutely every cultural
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And when somebody stubbornly says no, like I would make the worst Noah ever.
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I'd go to an animal and I'd be like, hey, you guys should get on the ark.
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And then the unicorns and fairies, they'd be like, hey, honestly, what you're saying sounds
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a little homophobic about the flood and everything like that.
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And I'd be like, it has nothing to do with homophobia.
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I'm just trying to get you guys on the ark because you're going to die if you don't get
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And then there will be no more fairies and there will be no more unicorns.
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I know that's why God did not give me that role.
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So often we will have these individuals come to us and I'll see these movements.
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Like right now, the 4B movement in Korea, it's beginning to spread in the United States,
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particularly among some parts of American black culture.
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I will do what I can to make them aware of the problem, but I'm not going to force them,
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you know, and if they're going to jump into the wood chipper in an effort.
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So the 4Bs is the culture that came from Korea, no sex, no men, no marriage, no kids.
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And it is, it seems to be catching on in the black community because black women feel that
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They are not treated with respect by black men and they just don't have any good options.
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And so that it's better just to not engage with them.
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And this is a cultural fight that's not mine to have.
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It's women trying to spite men that are both outside of my cultural group.
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And all I can do is say, you know what, this whole thing you guys have going on is pretty
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And I hope that we can save some iteration of black American culture.
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And I hope it doesn't include you or the people who were susceptible to this.
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And so it's so interesting in that it's a movement that while, and this is another
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thing, we talk about the horrifying things that are going to happen.
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Millions upon billions of slow and painful deaths.
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And people will be like, why doesn't that stress you out?
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And this, there's a reason why it doesn't stress us out because we as a movement do not
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This is one of the things that a lot of people are like, why don't you go more into the pathos
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And they're like, well, why not lean into the pathos?
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I believe that people are going to suffer and die.
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I also believe that no matter what we do, we are not going to make a meaningful impact
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There really is, unlike the environmentalist movement, which uses the environmental panic
00:21:10.300
And because of that, it means that people would be like, the world is going to be in a bad
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situation and it's going to be that no matter what we do.
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Why stress about the things that are going to happen no matter what?
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And more important, it's the optimist's movement in that there are some people who are just
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a little bit more driven by the potential, by the opportunity, by something really cool
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that could happen than people who are driven by, it's carrot versus stick people.
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The future that we're trying to create, I think, is also so optimistic when contrasted
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with the visions that different cultural groups tied to world catastrophes are freaking
00:21:55.420
The environmentalist movement really wants some form of authoritarian government that can
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control people's actions or brainwash everyone into having the exact same opinions about the
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environment, which would require a mandatory state school system.
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The anti-AI people, a lot of people don't know this, but I've talked to them.
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I'm like, realistically, how do you implement this?
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How do you prevent anyone anywhere in the world from working on these AI technologies?
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And then they're like, realistically, what they would need is a lattice of Internet of
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Things around the world that is monitoring everyone all the time.
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That is the only real way that the anti-AI movement could become a sustainable.
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What they're for is one authoritarian world government AI that they run.
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That is the end game for most of these organizations.
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I do not think that AI is enough of a risk that we would submit humanity to becoming chattel
00:23:00.320
Because I know that AI isn't going to be just monitoring for AI development.
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It's going to be monitoring to make sure everybody follows your little cultural subset.
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And it's a horrifying vision for the future that they really have.
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And so they have to occlude a vision of the future from their people.
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And then people, some of the theocrats, they think our vision for the future is horrifying
00:23:21.760
Like you are pro like gene alteration, you are pro like AI development, you are pro human
00:23:28.680
And it's yeah, yeah, you are pro with genetics making allowing people we wouldn't be doing
00:23:37.500
And I know the technology is coming down the pipeline to do things like given elephants,
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essentially the types of neural density that humans have, and that would allow them to
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be a completely new type of sentient entity that could interact with the world in completely
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new ways and thinking completely new ways that would be as orthogonal to us as maybe
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I know you wouldn't do that because you're not a big fan of elephants.
00:24:00.540
No, I don't really like elephants that much, whether you're talking dolphins or dogs or
00:24:04.660
If your response to this is, well, I haven't heard of us being close to that kind of technology.
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My question would be, if there was a group that was close to this kind of technology and
00:24:15.920
That being the case, the fact that you haven't heard about any group being close to this level
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of technology means nothing about our actual proximity to this level of technology.
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In fact, the only people who would know are people with a large public profile and who
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could be actively useful to the type of person working on this.
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I think that the world of intelligence is about to get a lot bigger.
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It's not just human and AIs in the future or human AIs.
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It's going to be a lot of things out there and that we will create our own aliens before
00:24:48.860
And by that, what I mean is very alien intelligences, maybe even reviving some extinct branches of
00:25:01.500
Because different things will exist in the future.
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I think there's this one inclination in the heart of man that fears change when they want
00:25:13.080
I understand the fear of radical change in society and can we adapt to it?
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And what differentiates us from them is our answer is resounding, yes, humanity can adapt.
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I believe in the boundless potentiality of man and where we're going as a species.
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And I have no fear for what man can accomplish when he joins together and sets his differences
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Because from my perspective, we already live in a utopia.
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When I contrast the world we live in today was the world of 150 years ago, was the world
00:25:50.300
When I look at the world 150 years ago, it was a utopia compared to the world 500 years
00:25:54.040
I'll read the quote from The Martyrdom of Man, this book that was written 200 years ago,
00:25:58.340
And as for ourselves, if we are sometimes inclined to regret that our lot is cast in these unhappy
00:26:05.060
days, let us remember how much more fortunate we are than those who lived before us a few
00:26:11.260
The working man enjoys more luxuries today than did the king of England in the Anglo-Saxon
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times, and at his command are intellectual delights, which but a little while ago the
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Let us follow their glorious example by adding something new to the knowledge of mankind.
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Let us pay to the future the debt which we owe the past.
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And he's saying, yeah, we basically live in a utopia today when contrasted with the old
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And when I look at this sort of march of history, I don't fear the future, and I think that's
00:26:53.040
You have to believe that things are getting better to want so vociferously for humanity
00:26:58.980
And for those who say there are a lot of pernatalists out there who don't hold this view, there are
00:27:04.020
a lot of people who call themselves pernatalists who have these, like a lot of fears who are,
00:27:09.700
These people are typically racial supremacists or religious groups that are against abortion,
00:27:18.660
Well, what are the religious groups that want their religion to win?
00:27:26.280
That's about Catholicism, or that's about whatever ethnic group is being provided.
00:27:33.260
No, it's solved through pernatalism for their group only.
00:27:35.800
For their group only, pernatalism and conversion, right?
00:27:39.160
And so you see this, like a great example of one of these individuals would be someone
00:27:42.560
like Lyman Stone, where he's nominally a pernatalist, but it's really about promoting
00:27:48.820
And we see them as being allies to the non-denominational pernatalist movement, which is what you mean
00:27:55.720
Is their core goal this pluralistic, non-denominational, non-ethnocentric, non-single cultural centric
00:28:04.480
high fertility rate, which is what makes this, when she says not pronatalism, is what makes
00:28:08.560
it not pronatalist, because there is another value system above pronatalism.
00:28:14.660
It's another value system which pronatalism is serving.
00:28:20.440
They are working with the pronatalist movement, but they have a different end agenda.
00:28:26.940
So this is what we mean when we're saying pronatalism.
00:28:28.400
But also within these communities, there also is like that when they are in the pronatalist
00:28:32.760
spaces, because they are often working with people from many different perspectives, they
00:28:37.920
So yeah, there is, and we talk about this, there is this period of detente now where we
00:28:42.320
have a common enemy that is trying to erase our unique cultures.
00:28:47.780
There could be a point at which some of these groups decide, okay, now we're in a stronger
00:28:53.140
position and we're going to try to force everyone to be like us.
00:28:55.920
At that point, then there will be conflict between these groups.
00:28:58.820
But for now, basically, as long as all these groups are not the dominating culture, they
00:29:07.320
And keep in mind, like when we're talking about like leaning into genetic stuff and stuff,
00:29:10.980
like why does that lead to such a positive perspective?
00:29:12.960
Because we think that these developments, these continued technological perspectives, so long
00:29:16.680
as we can resist their temptation, so long as we can walk through the valley of the
00:29:20.060
lotus eaters, we say this time it's a trial of the lotus eaters, all of these technologies.
00:29:24.500
Elon Musk tweeted recently that we'll be able to, our kids will be able to have AI wives that
00:29:28.560
are like better than any human you could have today and more caring and loving and complete
00:29:34.680
How do you motivate somebody to play this civilizational game when that's the alternative?
00:29:39.560
They have to have an intense belief, like fundamental belief in the future of the human species.
00:29:45.140
And the only other alternative is the fire and brimstone approach, which is to say we need
00:29:51.480
But this fire and brimstone approach, when it is practiced in this context, also isn't
00:29:56.300
This idea that technology destroys everything, every generation is getting worse, we are an
00:30:01.900
eroding society from some past greatness, that belief system, of course, also isn't very
00:30:08.560
And so it intrinsically doesn't lead to, we don't choose these things because we are, we
00:30:16.540
When I look at humanity's history, I think humanity's history is one of optimism.
00:30:24.000
I always replay the Civ songs and stuff like that, that we see as our songs.
00:30:30.220
You're plotting a new course again, aren't you?
00:30:35.200
We must adapt, press forward if we are to see our journeys end.
00:30:43.360
It is the nature of humankind to push itself toward the horizon.
00:31:02.180
We rise to the challenge and become something greater than ourselves.
00:31:13.380
People should definitely check them out, but I see them as being like the songs of the
00:31:17.580
movement, not just our songs as a relationship, but like this idea of intergenerational improvement
00:31:26.240
Yes, sometimes we have conflicts, but there is something beyond our civilization as we understand
00:31:33.000
it now that's going to be as incomprehensible to us as the civilization we have built is
00:31:44.440
And I think it's, I'm glad you highlighted this.
00:31:46.940
I think it's nice for people to know that there are causes out there that are not stressful
00:31:50.900
because most causes I would say are, but because most causes have to be coercive in order
00:31:57.180
Like you have to get people who are not on board and not okay with it to be okay with
00:32:03.240
So for those who would like a non-stressful, fun, optimistic cause, consider joining us.
00:32:12.140
If you look at the pronatalist subreddit or the antinatalist subreddit, the antinatalist
00:32:15.940
constantly brigade the pronatalist subreddit, like saying mean things, saying angry things
00:32:23.000
The pronatalists never brigade the antinatalist subreddit.
00:32:25.300
Because there's no point that, again, they're not part of the conversation.
00:32:30.320
And I would appreciate our fans, people in the movement.
00:32:33.320
Don't go and attack the people who are different from you.
00:32:37.240
Let's keep the positivity of this movement going.
00:32:39.680
I'm so happy that Kevin Dolan is getting all this attention right now.
00:32:50.280
And it's just so exciting for me because even though he's in this religious faction of the
00:32:54.780
movement, I like that side is getting traction as well.
00:33:02.260
I'm glad that the leading individual in the religious faction is a Mormon.
00:33:07.440
One of the most aligned iterations of a religion was this movement.
00:33:11.440
I'm just so excited for what's happening for him and all the positivity, even people like
00:33:15.660
us and him who potentially see the world so differently can work together like this.
00:33:25.460
You are the son of positivity in this universe, but I love you.