Based Camp - The Quiverfull Movement： How High Fertility Ideologies Die

00:00:00.000 hello simone i'm excited to be here with you today today we are going to be discussing

00:00:04.240 the quiverful movement and what happened to them because i was noticing at the recent

00:00:09.280 pronatalist convention we had lots of conservative religious people come yeah yes it was about two

00:00:15.840 thirds of the people there was as i said it's about one third just tech bros one third just

00:00:22.260 religion bros one third tech and religion um and so what there wasn't a lot of was

00:00:30.200 evangelical and especially what there noticeably wasn't a lot of was quiverful and if you are

00:00:38.540 unfamiliar with the quiverful movement i will give you a brief background the movement primarily

00:00:43.640 based in the united states with some spread in the uk emerged in the late 20th century as a response

00:00:47.540 to feminism and modern birth control it derives its name and philosophy from plasm 127 3 through 5 1.00

00:00:54.580 which compares children to arrows in the hand of a warrior symbolizing divine blessings and

00:01:01.140 strengths through procreation and it also says the children of your youths implementing in that

00:01:06.060 line that you should have kids while you're still young oh which is one of the key things now is how

00:01:10.700 do we get people in their 20s to start having a kid again so you think oh this is so promising this

00:01:14.540 is perfect okay great start yeah basically it it argues and i actually find it to be a really

00:01:19.940 important passage in the bible it says that you know the children you have in your youth are like

00:01:25.500 the arrows in your quiver for your adulthood because what it's basically telling you is that while you're

00:01:34.700 young you should fill your arrow with quivers so that when you go to war you have the boat but but it

00:01:41.800 it talks about having kids as a preparatory thing for a full life rather than a capstone of it

00:01:48.680 which is actually a really powerful way to see having children yes anyway adherents self-identify as

00:01:56.700 quiverful or full quiver or qf christians issue all forms of contraception including natural family

00:02:03.640 planning and sterilization viewing family sides is solely determined by god this is the wheel people 1.00

00:02:09.380 ah okay first place i'm seeing cracks here yeah note that this might be why they don't have many

00:02:15.240 kids anymore because biological fertility has been falling and you really need to plan on kids when

00:02:18.860 catherine pokalock she was on our show she did she did a big thing where she interviewed 50 people who

00:02:24.860 had over five kids only one of them used this message so it is very rare to use this among large

00:02:31.060 families this natalistic approach is part of a broader conservative christian pushback against secular

00:02:35.380 trends aiming for demographic growth to influence culture and politics early influences include

00:02:41.440 works like a full quiver family planning and the lordship of christ by rick and jan hess which

00:02:47.360 framed large families of a fulfillment of divine command the movement gained traction in the 1980s

00:02:52.500 and 90s aligning with other conservative ideologies like christian patriarchy which emphasized male

00:02:57.940 headship and female submission now before we go further with this that's that's basically the gist of what 0.66

00:03:03.620 the movement was it was the spooky pro natalists that i knew of growing up like if somebody had said

00:03:09.460 what is the pro natalist movement i would have said quiverful in when i grew up in the 90s 100

00:03:13.800 but they've basically gone extinct as we showed in a recent episode pro natalism significantly out

00:03:21.820 competes quiverful as something like a search term these days and so the question is what happened to

00:03:27.720 them why aren't they going to like natalist conferences why aren't they in talks with you know

00:03:32.860 with all of the the political talk about natalism these days and jd vance in office why isn't there

00:03:38.420 some quiverful you know thinker or talker stepping up and catching news because there isn't and it's

00:03:45.740 uniquely interesting because they were having lots of kids and so this is important to us you know it

00:03:51.140 shows that just having lots of kids isn't enough and can even lead to the extinction of your movement

00:03:57.920 and so this is something that we have to look out for i mean we are a christian high fertility movement

00:04:03.200 right so how do we pass that on intergenerationally when they failed to do this yeah so let's explore

00:04:11.560 the movement and let's explore how it fell apart and how we can avoid that the movement reached peak

00:04:17.340 visibility during the 2000s and 2010s largely due to media exposure families like the duggars featured 0.95

00:04:24.080 on the reality show 19 kids and counting became public faces that they did not explicitly identify

00:04:29.180 as quiverful their lifestyle was 19 children mirrored the movement's ideals bringing it into

00:04:34.400 mainstream awareness at this time estimates suggest that around 10 000 adherents with a focus on large

00:04:40.200 families often 6 to 12 children as a strategy for demographic shift in cultural influence and no

00:04:45.740 here they were not that big 10 000 movements at their peak right and i think that that and the

00:04:51.760 evangelicals more broadly sort of were overplayed by the media as a much larger movement than they

00:04:56.760 ever really were this period saw the movement's doctrine such as rejecting birth control and

00:05:02.080 emphasizing homeschooling to maintain indoctrination became widely discussed however the movement faced

00:05:07.820 significant controversies that likely contributed to its decline in prominence reports of spiritual

00:05:13.620 abuse dehumanizing practices and patriarchal control emerged with former members like vicky

00:05:18.760 garrison a turned activist highlighting the darker side the grudge article from 2023 noticed the

00:05:24.500 movement's association with christian patriarchy where wives were expected to be subservient and

00:05:30.740 fathers controlled all aspects of family life making it harder for members to leave specific cases such

00:05:36.620 as women continuing pregnancies against medical advice nearly dying underscored the physical and

00:05:42.180 emotional toll as seen in examples like garrison's seventh child critiques also focused on

00:05:48.940 sustainability with physical emotional and financial strains on families the movement's vision for large

00:05:54.160 families was seen as impractical in modern context and political strategy aiming for influence through

00:06:00.360 demographic growth was questioned for limited electoral impact outside of conservative communities

00:06:05.580 amplified by media and former members testimonies likely eroded its broader appeal

00:06:12.140 so what are your thoughts so far well i think the really strong thing is this message of starting your 20s

00:06:19.380 and kids are an asset the let jesus take a wheel no family planning not even natural family planning approach

00:06:26.860 is insane and what really bothers me about the man has to be the leader approach is that only works when you

00:06:34.800 have an exceptional man like i'm super cool with 100 being subservient to you because you are the most

00:06:43.040 exceptional man i've ever discovered in the entire history of humanity like alexander the great no no

00:06:48.700 sorry napoleon no i don't think so you yeah sure absolutely 100 so i yeah i just i i i don't think that this works

00:07:00.100 you have to have a sword and shield relationship you have to have a relationship in which people have

00:07:04.420 domains of ownership in which both women and men are seen as bringing respect to the table and i think

00:07:09.680 where a community maybe even externally has a little bit more of an ability to be like

00:07:13.900 you need to work on yourself we're putting the other partner in charge right now because

00:07:18.400 you're a hot mess and and that i don't know it just feels like there's too much room for things to go

00:07:23.100 out of control and for abusive dynamics to form what are your thoughts well i i mean i even with

00:07:29.020 everything that you think of me and even with you saying you know you have the final shot on everything

00:07:34.120 i don't treat that in the way like a dugger would treat that right like we still live in a way that most

00:07:41.280 people would see as highly gender egalitarian and i think this is part of the problem that people

00:07:48.160 relate to this is that yes women on average want to be the submissive partner in a relationship and 1.00

00:07:54.280 often relationships work better when a male takes the lead or dominant role but part of that dominant

00:08:01.100 role is not pushing the other person around forcing them to do things they don't want to do

00:08:07.260 you know how did one of our one of our listeners put it really well or it's that mother of someone who

00:08:13.320 respect so much you know you are mentioned that dominance real dominance especially like in these

00:08:19.440 in these relationships never shows up as a man putting a woman down or pulling rank it is just

00:08:25.480 natural dominance it's natural leadership if you have to put a woman down or tell her to do something 1.00

00:08:31.180 or order her around or act dominant like performatively you have already lost you are showing that you do

00:08:37.160 you don't have dominance and yes to force someone to do something like that you're absolutely right

00:08:42.400 that's a sign that they don't want to follow what you have to say yeah just based on what you have to

00:08:47.760 say yeah i think real dominance manifests real husband dominance manifests in a wife going out of 1.00

00:08:54.040 her way to try to anticipate his needs and the needs of the family without ever being asked because she

00:08:59.520 understands her role he she understands what he brings to the table she understands his vision

00:09:04.600 and if a man doesn't communicate his vision if he doesn't do these things she will not anticipate

00:09:08.940 his needs she will not have the drive to to act on them or she won't think that they're that his his

00:09:14.680 vision is legitimate and she won't act on it because there's very little motivation when you feel a lot

00:09:19.240 of cognitive dissonance so i think that that's that's a big problem because i feel like that's not

00:09:23.500 in ideal quiverful relationships that probably happens but i just don't you know like welcome to the

00:09:29.980 world no relationship except for ours is if you ask is ideal yeah well and i think it is it's like

00:09:38.860 our daughters growing up they're not going to feel like they're in a household where a man has all the 1.00

00:09:44.300 power and a woman can't like yeah you you but i think also in in very extreme power dynamical 1.00

00:09:51.760 relationships or at least like you know when a man really leads some things like part of what

00:09:55.960 leadership means is delegating a huge swaths of influence to other people and i think in in many

00:10:06.020 households where you see divisions of labor you will see like whoa like she i mean i control all the

00:10:12.240 finances i control like a lot of things and you control a lot of things and they'll see that there's

00:10:16.600 there's control on both ends and if someone's micromanaging they're not actually being a good

00:10:20.120 leader and i think that's also where you see the ordering around and this perception

00:10:22.860 of dominance that is performative and not yeah it's almost like they're larping being a man they

00:10:30.120 they heard this concept of being a man and they like i understand that all of the power that i have

00:10:36.660 over you is a gift from you to me and one that can be revoked it is power i have not due to some

00:10:44.280 divine right but due to the fact that you trust me enough you know and uh if you stop trusting my

00:10:51.760 decision making i'm not gonna have that power anymore and that's the way i relate to it and

00:10:56.700 well that's how it's been for every natural leader throughout history every king every general understands

00:11:03.180 that if he doesn't in any single moment manage to be naturally dominant his people will not follow

00:11:12.020 there will be a rebellion there will be mutiny there will be whatever right like captains on ships don't

00:11:17.900 stay captains because their title is captain captains on ships stay captain because they are the best

00:11:23.420 leader for the ship like that changes and this is why you have desertion this is why you have mutinies

00:11:29.240 this is why you have revolutions yeah no i i agree 100 and i you know i think

00:11:36.580 yeah i just agree and i think that that's going to keep a lot more people in our cultural tradition

00:11:44.680 then would stay in their tradition if you have a cultural tradition where you would just strictly

00:11:48.760 be better off like if i'm born a woman leaving of course you're going to bleed women and then you're 0.99

00:11:54.660 going to bleed men who think that the tradition's unfair and we've been seeing this more recently it 0.92

00:11:59.560 used to be that women stayed with conservative traditions at a higher rate than men but recently

00:12:03.640 the trend has reversed and women have started leaving at a higher rate so for example now mormonism

00:12:09.380 is a majority male religion which never used to be the case yeah all the friends that we knew who 1.00

00:12:15.240 even converted in were women because they really bought the wholesome family lifestyle thing we knew 0.99

00:12:20.760 a lot of women who've converted out too that's true that's true yeah because of the feminist issues 1.00

00:12:25.260 yeah and they're like wait a second this is super not okay with me this is deeply unfair like yeah

00:12:30.120 from their perspective anyway i'll keep going here the decline it seems driven by multiple factors

00:12:36.240 the backlash from abuse scandals such as those within the dugger family which received more

00:12:40.960 attention post-2015 the unsustainable demands on adherence highlighting but highlighted by critiques

00:12:48.640 of health and autonomy and a cultural shift away from such extreme natalism in broader society well

00:12:55.000 there i don't i don't know i mean maybe i guess yeah birth rates have fallen it's become less cool

00:12:59.560 while not extinct its influence is likely reduced with a smaller more insular community compared to its

00:13:05.640 earlier ambitions of demographic and cultural dominance while specific 2025 deconversion rates

00:13:12.140 for quiverful children are not available anecdotal evidence suggests for example what it was like to

00:13:16.540 grow up in quiverful cosmopolitan features hannah ediger raised in the movement who is now completely

00:13:24.220 in a new life implying deconversion a reddit post in our deconstruction our deconstruction of large

00:13:30.660 quiverful families and i read a lot about on this thread discusses large families and deconversion

00:13:35.520 though it's anecdotal the lack of numerical data is a gap but a pattern exists especially given

00:13:41.820 controversies like abuse within the dugger family as mentioned in the untold truths of quiverful

00:13:46.480 christianity grunge supports the idea of higher deconversion so i was like okay let's go to that

00:13:52.040 family that had 19 the duggers how many of their kids stayed in both the religion and its high fertility

00:13:58.980 goal 11 of their children did oh like what's the two of the 19 yeah that's bad but it's not as bad as you

00:14:08.700 think because what we actually find is if you then say okay let's just look at the older ones because

00:14:15.260 some are like 16 16 18 19 those don't count right so let's only look at the 12 who are over 25 right

00:14:22.340 now only two of those 12 don't have children and of the other 10 all of them have over two children but

00:14:32.920 one there there are a few that are pregnant with their third but yeah so they are dramatically higher

00:14:40.680 fertility than normal interesting huh just anecdotally every time i hear some interview

00:14:48.660 with someone who deconverted and and had a really large religious family it was a quiverful family 0.96

00:14:53.020 not not mormon not oh i guess there's eight passengers so there's that one well eight passengers

00:14:58.420 with another really large christian family that got famous and her kids they were mormon so

00:15:02.600 deconverting yeah i guess can are are some mormons quiverfuls i i guess you should ask like how

00:15:09.540 religiously siloed is this concept of because it's a biblical line you don't have to be like

00:15:15.200 whatever i imagine you can you can be any movement yeah it's like whatever but i i would count her as

00:15:22.600 part of that larger movement you know very strict parenting very very different parenting style than

00:15:28.060 our parenting as well like we are known as being strict because we use like light corporal discipline

00:15:33.820 with our kids which is super taboo these days but this is not like what quiverful families do

00:15:38.220 where they do like very serious spankings and stuff like that yeah or like i i think it overlaps

00:15:43.200 with that book that guides mothers to like teach their baby to stay on a small blanket and like

00:15:49.560 hurt them a little yes actually that was one of the the controversies we're going to be talking about

00:15:53.800 okay yeah so there's also just this like how it works well like they're just trying to use

00:15:58.240 condition like basic conditioning to learn how blanket training works right so you you you put your

00:16:04.680 infant on a like square blanket on the ground and it doesn't have any fence or walls or anything and

00:16:10.460 then every time they go towards the edge of it you like flick their wrist or do something that hurts

00:16:14.400 them a little bit so they associate going off the blanket with pain and eventually they will just

00:16:21.160 stay on the blanket and not go off of it and that is convenient especially for mothers of larger

00:16:26.140 families because they can just put the blanket down anywhere and expect that their kid is going to stay on it

00:16:31.140 and that's dead i don't know there's just something like deeply dystopian and really sad about that to

00:16:37.580 me like you just like a broken i don't know our kids lack that for going off beds but you know our

00:16:45.180 kids our kids yeah like that even when like they they have a real scare and like wanna like they just

00:16:50.920 they just desperately want to fall off surfaces and we are constantly being like this is a cliff do not

00:16:57.100 i i understand your point here but i just i i what our our corporal punishment is more like you are

00:17:06.480 about to severely hurt yourself or put yourself in danger or one of your siblings in danger you gotta

00:17:12.540 knock this off like let's you're not listening to my words this is different it is i'm going to

00:17:17.760 break your will i'm going to make you a compliant domesticated human and yes this is you're right 0.87

00:17:25.780 the the difference is that they are trying to domesticate their children and we're trying to

00:17:30.120 make our children maximally fierce it's a completely different way of relating to them

00:17:34.880 well it's very backward versus puritan honestly the puritan way of raising kids and we like some

00:17:41.320 things about it like this idea of having kids like confront their mortality and all that like some

00:17:46.300 some harsh elements of puritan upbringing historically they had them look at corpses and stuff and be like

00:17:51.640 like staring into graves until they cried like i i get that like except that when we do that with

00:17:56.420 our children they just don't get it you know or they do but they don't care i guess i think you're

00:18:03.320 you're absolutely right where it is moving away from strictness for the sake of strictness i'd almost

00:18:08.440 say like it's like two dogs like one dog you're trying to force to follow every order that's ever given

00:18:16.400 right and the other dog you're training to fight other dogs like okay we're training our dads the

00:18:23.340 way you would train a pit bull you know you want to wonderful just be absolutely unhinged and and and

00:18:28.820 and go but you know to a pit bull every toddler and a small dog is just another snack that's that is 0.75

00:18:36.560 how pit bulls see the world you got to see our video on the one ethical genocide i do think we should

00:18:41.260 get rid of pit bulls um i agree with you but it's just like a different way of relating to raising a

00:18:46.760 thing like is the boundaries that you are placing on them to make them stronger is it to get them to

00:18:53.580 be tougher or is it because you're trying to get them to follow a very constrained trajectory

00:18:58.180 and with us now does this mean that they have a higher chance of leaving the family

00:19:03.680 yes because you're you're trying to make them like have will and want to leave the family but in a way

00:19:09.820 because of that it also brings them back to the family not through like punishment or fear or

00:19:17.460 whatever but through pride and that i'm a collins and this is what i was always taught growing up you

00:19:23.480 are a collins and collins are better than other people it's just very clear it's like this is what's

00:19:28.580 expected of you because you're collins and i was like well other people don't do that and they go well

00:19:31.280 other people aren't collins and i remember being like oh yeah like i have more rules of this type

00:19:37.000 this like expected of my personal behavior because i'm better than other people and i think that

00:19:41.920 i i don't know if my opinion of myself has changed much as time has gone on but i think

00:19:51.100 that kids would relate the same way is that if you if you do this right they're gonna be like

00:19:58.700 yeah but i'm the best right why would i leave a family when the family is super awesome and

00:20:05.040 especially if i like my siblings and that was something that was noted in the thread over and

00:20:08.580 over again when people were complaining about their large families they would complain about

00:20:11.580 stuff for like obviously some therapist or urban monoculture person had gotten their hooks in them

00:20:15.360 and that's weird but they always said that they really appreciate all their siblings

00:20:22.520 and they wouldn't want any of them not to exist and that that's the thing that was most

00:20:26.680 important to them and exciting about growing up that way and so you really don't get this and i i'd say

00:20:32.620 this is true of the large families i know i do not see this pushback of like oh i wish my siblings

00:20:37.620 didn't exist it's just the totalitarian way that the religion was communicated to them is what causes

00:20:44.240 them to to split off and i think within religions that have lower deconversion rates like judaism

00:20:50.060 like orthodox judaism it is the factions that are either isolated from the rest of the world those 0.96

00:20:55.960 have very low deconversion rates like they isolate them educationally and everything like that

00:20:59.340 so they can't easily get a job in the outside world which is not great i wouldn't do that

00:21:03.140 yeah or the ones that are just like strict in their belief system but not in like

00:21:09.580 authoritarianly pushing it on children through things like punishment

00:21:13.900 but let's get into some of the any thoughts before i go further no no go further

00:21:20.560 all right let's get into some of the controversies so i'm gonna start with all the controversies that

00:21:25.720 don't involve josh because that's a whole different scenario so this was a controversy

00:21:31.940 brought up in the docuseries shiny happy people where one daughter who also wrote a book about this

00:21:37.720 and complained a lot she she's like jill unpaid 7.5 years of labor this isn't helping was raising the 1.00

00:21:44.140 other kids this is in being on air but she mostly just complained about being on tv a lot and and not

00:21:50.140 liking tv at her wedding and another important business and i'm like fine but i don't really have

00:21:54.460 anything to do with you being in a large family it has to do with their father exploiting them which

00:21:59.900 that's pretty clear from all the stuff that happened and then another big backlash and this caused

00:22:06.400 tlc's removal of the show apparently or was part of it was derek dillard's quote-unquote homophobic

00:22:12.760 tweets in 2017 where he where what did he say he called transgenderism a myth 1.00

00:22:18.920 okay so stupid if you're gonna have like a transphobic tweet that's that's a pretty stupid 1.00

00:22:27.000 transphobic tweet it caused him to be removed from counting on family tensions yeah i i don't 1.00

00:22:34.700 it's not what like that's mainstream these days yeah he he came too early right you know now we've got

00:22:42.280 the travestock report now we've got you know everything that's going on since the post-election

00:22:48.040 vibe shift for everyone's like okay yeah it's probably a culture-bound illness and and leads

00:22:52.760 to a lot of unaliving attempts that don't exist in any other culture on earth no other culture on earth

00:22:58.220 i mentioned this before i'll mention every chance i get no other culture on earth and no other time

00:23:02.860 period on earth while you see gay people everywhere throughout history and cultures trans people are

00:23:08.560 completely absent except for modern context and note here i'm not talking about gender fluidity gender

00:23:13.780 fluidity exists all over history but being obsessed with the gender that other people see you as to the

00:23:19.660 point where you would want to kill yourself because they don't see you as the gender you see yourself

00:23:24.140 this is not a phenomenon anywhere else in human history and and obviously it's a very mentally taxing

00:23:29.120 phenomenon that we would prefer didn't exist and proliferate so he's completely right about this

00:23:34.260 next year you have tutors marriage to sex offender this is tab as a page so tutor married convicted

00:23:41.220 sexual assault offender duggars through engagement party significant backlash question family values

00:23:47.500 whatever the josh is the big one and it's the one that i'm more worried about i want to learn from

00:23:52.320 the most prominent scandals on josh duggar the eldest child in touch weekly published a 2006 police

00:23:59.460 report revealing josh as a teenager molested five underage girls including four sisters jill jessa jinga and

00:24:06.580 jana well they really like those jays with offenses occurring between 2002 and 2003 when he was 14 to

00:24:14.540 15 the report later confirmed by people detailed groping while victims slept confessed to parents

00:24:21.660 and received counseling but the revelation led to tlc or at least was part of it canceling 19 kids and

00:24:28.320 counting on june 16th 2015 as noted in josh duggar's wikipedia this fallout was named one of the

00:24:35.740 10 big scandals of 2015 by usa today and the washington post listed josh as one of the most

00:24:41.240 hated people online that year the same year on august 19th 2015 gawker reported josh had active

00:24:48.880 accounts on ashley madison this is when the leak happened i guess a website for extramarital affairs

00:24:53.540 confirmed by people leading to his public apology on the family website admitting a pornography addiction

00:24:58.860 and cheating on his wife anna he checked into a face-based rehab program centered in rockford

00:25:04.220 illinois on august 2015 as per people victims jill and janna came forward in 2015 interviewed on kelly

00:25:11.660 file with megan kelly well he creepily watched behind the camera by the way what he was there on set

00:25:20.380 like they were coerced into doing that just horrible the whole thing was horrible and this is i mean it's

00:25:27.100 i don't care what your arousal problems might be or like what what inconvenient things turn you on 0.98

00:25:33.580 you're garbage person if you do these things like what i think just over and over again chose to hurt 1.00

00:25:42.360 people and do things to people without their consent it's he's just a garbage person and the fact 1.00

00:25:48.460 hold on we'll we'll see more about this but continue the fact that well you a quiverful 0.98

00:25:56.300 family that raises someone like that is not clearly is is is not creating a culture that is

00:26:02.540 good it is not imparting fitness at all failure drop it they i disagree i'm gonna push back a little

00:26:12.220 longer they had 19 kids okay and he was their first true yeah you get bad apples with i'm just like i i

00:26:21.020 look at this and i think that you and this perception you have that if we raise our kids right they won't

00:26:27.660 do this is inaccurate i think that we have to be constantly vigilant even if we're good parents 100%

00:26:36.620 in terms of how we train them how we train them to report and talk to us about things which

00:26:42.060 apparently wasn't happening effectively in this but also what what you do when problems are reported

00:26:47.340 because this was reported multiple times and well and he went to counseling after it was reported but

00:26:54.620 i think that it was reported by him and not by things like his sisters and stuff like this and i

00:26:58.780 think you need a system where the entire family is like on watch or i think this is also reported by

00:27:04.860 girls from other people's families it wasn't just him coming forward i don't think this was him

00:27:11.180 coming well i mean i look at things he's doing when he's 14 and 15 and this requires i mean i actually

00:27:15.500 think that this is why it's good to have all the kids sleep in the same room they were in the same

00:27:18.860 room by gender at least because it's much easier to what safety in numbers yeah safety numbers one of the

00:27:26.380 other kids can report on the kid who's doing the wrong thing and every kid knows that every other kid is

00:27:31.260 watching yeah they snitch on each other they would absolutely snitch on each other and i think that

00:27:37.660 that's a powerful way you can prevent creepy kids from being creepy to other kids right uh

00:27:45.020 and yeah i i i see how something like this could happen if like the oldest kid is the problem as well

00:27:51.820 because then you have to worry about reprisals and stuff like that which is why maybe it matters that

00:27:56.940 you focus on the oldest kid being more moral or focus a lot on moral teachings with the older kid

00:28:02.140 we're fortunate and that our oldest kid is very obsessed with rules no he won't let us continue

00:28:08.460 like i'm driving and a naughty word is said on a show that i'm watching or on a song because that's a

00:28:14.460 bad show you got to turn it off you gotta you gotta play something else he won't he will not let me

00:28:19.900 watch things that have curse words in them which i absolutely love yeah he won't have it i love it which is

00:28:25.580 why one of the reasons we're trying to remove curse words from the show which i'm doing more of you

00:28:29.100 know yes even believing them out when they're in the little clips so i don't but you know we don't

00:28:34.220 know what he's going to be like when he goes through puberty you know it's it's it's worth really working

00:28:38.860 on that with the oldest kids to ensure that we set a good sort of direction yeah yeah and what we've

00:28:45.500 seen with other kids is if you look at like the the eight passengers situation the older kids are the

00:28:51.980 ones who basically set up a deconversion pipeline for the younger kids yeah and so yeah but we'll

00:28:58.220 get into more of this so in april 2021 you might not know about this josh faced another scandal when

00:29:03.980 he was arrested on april 29th for receiving and possessing child pornography oh yeah

00:29:08.460 was material from may 2019 depicting abuse of children under 12 as detailed by people he pleaded guilty

00:29:16.620 facing up to 20 years and a quarter million dollar in fines uh found guilty in 2021 blah blah blah to

00:29:23.660 12 years in prison with 20 years under supervision prohibited from unsupervised contact with minors

00:29:29.580 and fines of 50 100 per people family reactions varied was michelle and anna supporting him

00:29:36.860 while his cousin amy duggar king opposed calling the family delusional in an ex post urging anna to divorce

00:29:43.500 as noted in people now so i asked how did they teach sex ed to their children because like what

00:29:49.180 could have led to this behavior right and i actually think a lot of the behavior is downstream of this

00:29:53.100 the dunggar family well known for their conservative christian beliefs and future reality tv show

00:29:57.260 provided limited sex education primarily emphasizing abstinence until marriage it seems likely that men

00:30:02.540 received a brief talk and a christian themed book before marriage while women were given little to no

00:30:08.860 formal education accepting guidance from their husbands their homeschooling curriculum based on

00:30:14.300 the advanced training institute ati program avoided discussion of sex creating a taboo and spreading

00:30:20.300 misinformation with strict modesty rules and limited physical contact before marriage that's what i think

00:30:26.860 a lot of this comes down from and i think a lot of the deconversions come down from this if you teach

00:30:31.020 somebody as i've always said like engaging with pornography makes you a bad person and they're a young man

00:30:37.100 as we know basically all young men except those in the most extreme religious conditions like there's 0.56

00:30:42.140 a famous case where they tried to do a study and they wanted to find men who had never seen used porn

00:30:47.180 before as as like a control in the study and they had to abandon it because they couldn't find enough

00:30:52.060 men in that category and i think a man has to be pretty sexually atypical to fall into that category

00:30:57.660 and that being the case you know it means that if you teach them while you're sinful and this is really

00:31:03.260 horrible if you're engaging in this stuff especially with the internet as it is these days then you just

00:31:08.140 have all of them thinking that about themselves which makes them think well then why not just leave

00:31:16.220 well if yeah either you stay and you're secretly a monster or you leave yeah and then it's like well

00:31:22.460 then what's the additional bad to molestation yeah yeah yikes not good tell someone they're a monster for

00:31:30.620 doing this is this is also why we push back against things like louise perry's while we like her as a 0.97

00:31:36.380 person and as an influencer her idea that women are only into choking because men have like diluted 1.00

00:31:43.020 them and women are only into like being put in positions of let's put masochistic submission because 1.00

00:31:49.500 of men liking this stuff that's not the data doesn't support it untrue yeah this is driven by women women 0.59

00:31:56.300 prefer this more than men prefer doing it men did not make 50 shades of gray a bestseller and women

00:32:01.260 were not buying it to show off to men yeah what what we see is is if you are honest about this stuff

00:32:07.260 and you tell your daughters hey it's normal to be into this stuff it's normal to be into what was the

00:32:14.140 whole vampire phenomenon it was about having guys come on it's normal normal normal to be into this as a

00:32:21.980 woman don't think that you're sinful don't think that you're a deviant just don't think that just 1.00

00:32:29.020 because it turns you on you want it either like yeah it's another really important point here just

00:32:34.780 because something turns you on doesn't mean you morally condone it or that you want it to happen

00:32:38.380 or that it would be good if it happened so that's yeah and i think that that when we when we break away

00:32:45.180 from this dugger mindset around something like pornography or the louise perry mindset you don't have kids

00:32:50.700 feel ashamed about things that are totally normal and through that there's less of a an idea of like

00:32:58.220 oh i don't like being in this family or oh i'm i'm sort of scared to be in this environment or this

00:33:03.500 household because i know that i'm not living up to the standards that i assume everyone else is living

00:33:09.020 up to right when in reality very few people actually live up to these standards uh and and then you because

00:33:16.300 you're already breaking one moral norm it's like well i'm already a horrible person and then you

00:33:20.060 begin to contextualize this into your identity and i think that that what people need to realize one of

00:33:26.060 the things that we always point out and we have you can look at our our cast looks about to go extinct

00:33:30.060 episode i talk about low fertility rates and high deconversion rates among some other christian

00:33:36.540 movements and i think was in these movements there's this perception that well how quickly could you

00:33:42.220 really disappear as a movement that at least attempts to be high fertility and attempts to espouse

00:33:47.100 high fertility values and i think the dugger show you how quickly fast the quiverful movement shows you

00:33:52.220 how quickly fast a generation yeah that's how fast definitely like two generations yeah i'm also looking

00:34:01.580 at google trends interest over time for quiver quiverful not as a search term but it's like the broader

00:34:08.300 religious concept sharing this with you just so you have it it it had spikes every now and then it

00:34:15.180 probably mostly due to media stuff and the most recent spike was in 2022 may and it was one of the

00:34:22.860 smaller spikes that has ever taken place so it is it is clearly on the on the downfall it appears to be in

00:34:29.580 its death throes yeah well i and this is why i think like authoritarian religious structures are

00:34:37.580 just a very bad at working in a modern context yeah and if that's the way you're relating your

00:34:42.620 religion to kids they will leave it and they will help your other kids leave it interestingly when you 0.99

00:34:48.300 compare quiverful to natalism quiverful religious concept natalism belief the 2004 to present total

00:34:57.100 search volume for quiverful is much larger like it definitely was a way bigger concept than

00:35:01.900 pro natalism in the past but basically ever since only 2023 when you and i started really pushing

00:35:12.380 for it natalism has clearly started to take over yeah very interesting whereas quiverful has kind of died

00:35:20.540 out quiverful had much bigger spikes i think that's probably mostly because of the duggars though

00:35:25.500 well and and media and you know i haven't molested a kid so yeah let's keep it that way

00:35:34.700 you've slapped kids though and i'm sure that helped with overall awareness so there we go right

00:35:40.140 whatever it takes bob gate was uh there's a bob gate i just i just gotta get a slapping machine

00:35:47.500 we'll get that with the documentary when it comes out

00:35:49.580 we're gonna have slap competitions now that i know it's a it's a sport the kids can i love you

00:35:57.580 practice on each other all right have a great day simone we'll go to the next episode i love you

00:36:06.380 you have the graphs by the way oh okay i just learned about an entirely new sport that there are

00:36:13.660 professional large stadiums filled with viewing this sport okay i didn't know it existed and

00:36:23.980 i would watch this maybe i am actually tempted to go watch the recorded versions of this can you guess

00:36:30.860 what it is do you need a hint that you would watch it okay what would you want yeah i need a hint i have

00:36:36.300 nothing other than that it's a sport oh the the medieval knights one no oh well the medieval knights

00:36:44.780 one looks pretty cool i've not heard of that so that's like actual jousting or no like they dress

00:36:50.620 up as knights and do like sword combat it looks pretty okay so like in the knight's tail when they

00:36:56.060 did the in the ring and they were doing sword combat yeah that kind of okay nope that's not it but

00:37:01.660 i didn't know that was a thing so that's awesome thank you for giving me one oh yeah so well i don't

00:37:06.060 know cool okay think of a game show where a man was an indian man was quite

00:37:16.380 disturbed by a woman's act it was a slapping game yes slapping competitions slapping comedy 1.00

00:37:22.620 and they feel like slow cams and you get points taken off if you flinch and it's both men and women

00:37:27.900 they have you know heavyweight lightweight categories etc they're they're medical professionals

00:37:32.780 on staff there's knockouts people break their wrists people break their noses and they have

00:37:37.900 you can see like the slow-mo of the slap hitting them and like the hand like reverberates as though

00:37:46.780 it is rubber the face of course ripples it and interestingly the person i was watching comment

00:37:53.180 on it for a little bit who taught me about this notice that women could take the slaps better 1.00

00:37:58.220 than men women seem to flinch a lot less and and looking at her footage it was really impressive the

00:38:03.660 men were flinching and i'm obviously the men are a lot stronger so i get it but moan this is why 0.98

00:38:10.300 these women have a lot more training than the men i mean shut up you terrible person you could just go up 1.00

00:38:19.580 there have no problem at all you are a professional at getting slapped just so people know i don't slap 0.98

00:38:27.580 my wire actually our kids would be amazing at it because remember in front of that journalist we

00:38:32.780 we did like we had like and they didn't flinch at all they would have gotten points in a slap

00:38:37.420 competition for their utter lack of flinching which is okay also simone i have to convince you

00:38:44.460 icksian labs is actually the perfect name for the studio remind me who the icks are in dune 1.00

00:38:50.460 so the icks are known for so there's two factions that produce a lot of technology in dune one is the

00:38:57.420 tylaxu that you don't really like so they do the biological engineering technology yeah the icks are

00:39:02.780 known for technology that skirts the butlerian jihad rules so they're the ones that are are they 0.81

00:39:07.820 the ones that are the personal computers of the wealthy people no no no what are they called make

00:39:13.420 real computers like like they're they're very if the tylaxus thing is sort of like being weird and

00:39:20.620 creepy whatever like the icks are known as being like overly clean like everything in their civilization 1.00

00:39:27.020 looks like an apple store they have a republic unlike the other governments in the empire which

00:39:32.940 are all like a like imperial or whatever and they create ai technology that is like clearly illegal so

00:39:40.860 like if you have on like a headset that like scans the environment and is like picking out like

00:39:45.660 ar so they do technology like that super advanced super clean technology hologram projectors stuff like

00:39:53.500 that okay so i like it except for the fact that when pronounced out loud it sounds like ick and

00:40:02.140 ick is even seeing come back like there's the new parlance of giving me the ick and it is not i think

00:40:11.020 something we would want as a brand name i don't it does not you didn't like mundo a mundo used with

00:40:19.260 other things because you saw it as negative but when i hear i think like necronomis mundo or whatever you

00:40:26.140 you know i think telenovelas and spanish tv so no no i'm i'm not that i have anything against

00:40:36.540 spanish as a language i just like i i don't think that's useful we'll keep playing with it if bruno likes

00:40:45.500 ick i'm gonna go with it because i like it so much well i respect bruno so i will defer to him but

00:40:52.780 the other one we have is is what is it sentience sentient systems but the reason i don't like

00:41:00.780 sentient systems that much i was thinking about like me at the third party developing on a platform

00:41:04.940 that was made by sentient systems and i'm like what i want to tell people that i like that sounds a

00:41:10.220 little like lame i don't know more than ixian ixian is cool sentient systems sounds a little lame and

00:41:18.860 then if you shorten it it becomes ss which was side scrollers problems i grew up with the initials

00:41:25.420 ss didn't realize that that it was problematic until it was a little late speaking of names maybe

00:41:33.180 our audience can settle a score although i've basically already overridden it because i've

00:41:37.020 just declared bankruptcy on having a dune related name for our next so our next kid is is the first

00:41:44.380 name okay but you don't no no take out the part where we give his first name because i need to

00:41:48.620 set up all his like domains and stuff and i don't want people camping on okay we'll take it but then

00:41:53.820 it doesn't mean anything if you just have the second name but whatever okay you just want the second

00:41:57.660 name so our yes we we are choosing a middle name for our fifth son who also we joke is the quiz

00:42:05.340 at hadara because he's got a really great potential iq based on his polygenic scores it puts him in like

00:42:12.140 the 98th to 98th sorry 99th percentile so that's like wow he's he's amazing and so i was joking we

00:42:19.100 should give him the middle name of atreides but then malcolm said no we should give him the middle name

00:42:24.460 of tylaxu and i think atreides it's honorable it's stately it's outside the normal moral constraint

00:42:33.900 because it's not as though paul is a goodie all the time he understands no hold on but atreides is

00:42:42.700 so basic tylaxu if you if you're going for nominative determinism and all of our kids have

00:42:47.500 gone nominative deterministic so far you know tylaxu is exactly the path we'd want them to go down

00:42:53.420 humanitarian crises using people's bodies against their will no no they don't even have a will anymore

00:42:59.820 they remove their brain there are alleged characters who say that they were used for

00:43:04.860 this purpose meaning that they do have a brain no that was there is sentience that the son did where

00:43:10.620 he went crazy and then he had them free isn't that still canon not in a meaningful not to any real fan

00:43:18.940 simone it is it is the bio crafter species that's what we want i do i do really want bioengineering to be

00:43:27.820 a family thing but i don't i just the humanitarian crisis angles just not there's no humanitarian

00:43:38.540 crisis it's a whiners it's the lisa simpson who calls us also atreides just sounds like a great name

00:43:45.180 and you'll you won't let me name any of our kids artanis so i need something that's like a

00:43:50.940 cool three-syllable kind of sci-fi a starting name give me something here the audience can weigh in

00:43:58.860 atreides or tlalaxu as a middle name all right

00:44:03.660 is there anything else you want to say

00:44:15.260 subscribers while i'm standing up i'm not holding it this is very fancy like and subscribe to the

00:44:24.220 channel if that is really fancy if you don't like us subscribe to the channel well you can still

00:44:31.900 i'm gonna comment the like down below tell us what you think about this in the comment below in our video bye

00:44:39.260 so

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Based Camp - April 02, 2025

The Quiverfull Movement： How High Fertility Ideologies Die

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