The Quiverfull Movement： How High Fertility Ideologies Die
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Summary
In this episode, we discuss the Quiverful Movement and what happened to them, and how we can avoid them in the future. The movement was a conservative christian pushback against secular trends aiming for demographic growth to influence culture and politics. It emerged in the late 20th century as a response to feminism and modern birth control, it derives its name and philosophy from plasm 127:3-5 which compares children to arrows in the hand of a warrior symbolizing divine blessings and strengths through procreation.
Transcript
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hello simone i'm excited to be here with you today today we are going to be discussing
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the quiverful movement and what happened to them because i was noticing at the recent
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pronatalist convention we had lots of conservative religious people come yeah yes it was about two
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thirds of the people there was as i said it's about one third just tech bros one third just
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religion bros one third tech and religion um and so what there wasn't a lot of was
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evangelical and especially what there noticeably wasn't a lot of was quiverful and if you are
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unfamiliar with the quiverful movement i will give you a brief background the movement primarily
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based in the united states with some spread in the uk emerged in the late 20th century as a response
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to feminism and modern birth control it derives its name and philosophy from plasm 127 3 through 5
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which compares children to arrows in the hand of a warrior symbolizing divine blessings and
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strengths through procreation and it also says the children of your youths implementing in that
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line that you should have kids while you're still young oh which is one of the key things now is how
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do we get people in their 20s to start having a kid again so you think oh this is so promising this
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is perfect okay great start yeah basically it it argues and i actually find it to be a really
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important passage in the bible it says that you know the children you have in your youth are like
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the arrows in your quiver for your adulthood because what it's basically telling you is that while you're
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young you should fill your arrow with quivers so that when you go to war you have the boat but but it
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it talks about having kids as a preparatory thing for a full life rather than a capstone of it
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which is actually a really powerful way to see having children yes anyway adherents self-identify as
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quiverful or full quiver or qf christians issue all forms of contraception including natural family
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planning and sterilization viewing family sides is solely determined by god this is the wheel people
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ah okay first place i'm seeing cracks here yeah note that this might be why they don't have many
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kids anymore because biological fertility has been falling and you really need to plan on kids when
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catherine pokalock she was on our show she did she did a big thing where she interviewed 50 people who
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had over five kids only one of them used this message so it is very rare to use this among large
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families this natalistic approach is part of a broader conservative christian pushback against secular
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trends aiming for demographic growth to influence culture and politics early influences include
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works like a full quiver family planning and the lordship of christ by rick and jan hess which
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framed large families of a fulfillment of divine command the movement gained traction in the 1980s
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and 90s aligning with other conservative ideologies like christian patriarchy which emphasized male
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headship and female submission now before we go further with this that's that's basically the gist of what
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the movement was it was the spooky pro natalists that i knew of growing up like if somebody had said
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what is the pro natalist movement i would have said quiverful in when i grew up in the 90s 100
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but they've basically gone extinct as we showed in a recent episode pro natalism significantly out
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competes quiverful as something like a search term these days and so the question is what happened to
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them why aren't they going to like natalist conferences why aren't they in talks with you know
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with all of the the political talk about natalism these days and jd vance in office why isn't there
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some quiverful you know thinker or talker stepping up and catching news because there isn't and it's
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uniquely interesting because they were having lots of kids and so this is important to us you know it
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shows that just having lots of kids isn't enough and can even lead to the extinction of your movement
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and so this is something that we have to look out for i mean we are a christian high fertility movement
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right so how do we pass that on intergenerationally when they failed to do this yeah so let's explore
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the movement and let's explore how it fell apart and how we can avoid that the movement reached peak
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visibility during the 2000s and 2010s largely due to media exposure families like the duggars featured
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on the reality show 19 kids and counting became public faces that they did not explicitly identify
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as quiverful their lifestyle was 19 children mirrored the movement's ideals bringing it into
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mainstream awareness at this time estimates suggest that around 10 000 adherents with a focus on large
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families often 6 to 12 children as a strategy for demographic shift in cultural influence and no
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here they were not that big 10 000 movements at their peak right and i think that that and the
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evangelicals more broadly sort of were overplayed by the media as a much larger movement than they
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ever really were this period saw the movement's doctrine such as rejecting birth control and
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emphasizing homeschooling to maintain indoctrination became widely discussed however the movement faced
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significant controversies that likely contributed to its decline in prominence reports of spiritual
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abuse dehumanizing practices and patriarchal control emerged with former members like vicky
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garrison a turned activist highlighting the darker side the grudge article from 2023 noticed the
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movement's association with christian patriarchy where wives were expected to be subservient and
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fathers controlled all aspects of family life making it harder for members to leave specific cases such
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as women continuing pregnancies against medical advice nearly dying underscored the physical and
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emotional toll as seen in examples like garrison's seventh child critiques also focused on
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sustainability with physical emotional and financial strains on families the movement's vision for large
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families was seen as impractical in modern context and political strategy aiming for influence through
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demographic growth was questioned for limited electoral impact outside of conservative communities
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amplified by media and former members testimonies likely eroded its broader appeal
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so what are your thoughts so far well i think the really strong thing is this message of starting your 20s
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and kids are an asset the let jesus take a wheel no family planning not even natural family planning approach
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is insane and what really bothers me about the man has to be the leader approach is that only works when you
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have an exceptional man like i'm super cool with 100 being subservient to you because you are the most
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exceptional man i've ever discovered in the entire history of humanity like alexander the great no no
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sorry napoleon no i don't think so you yeah sure absolutely 100 so i yeah i just i i i don't think that this works
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you have to have a sword and shield relationship you have to have a relationship in which people have
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domains of ownership in which both women and men are seen as bringing respect to the table and i think
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where a community maybe even externally has a little bit more of an ability to be like
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you need to work on yourself we're putting the other partner in charge right now because
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you're a hot mess and and that i don't know it just feels like there's too much room for things to go
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out of control and for abusive dynamics to form what are your thoughts well i i mean i even with
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everything that you think of me and even with you saying you know you have the final shot on everything
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i don't treat that in the way like a dugger would treat that right like we still live in a way that most
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people would see as highly gender egalitarian and i think this is part of the problem that people
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relate to this is that yes women on average want to be the submissive partner in a relationship and
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often relationships work better when a male takes the lead or dominant role but part of that dominant
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role is not pushing the other person around forcing them to do things they don't want to do
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you know how did one of our one of our listeners put it really well or it's that mother of someone who
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respect so much you know you are mentioned that dominance real dominance especially like in these
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in these relationships never shows up as a man putting a woman down or pulling rank it is just
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natural dominance it's natural leadership if you have to put a woman down or tell her to do something
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or order her around or act dominant like performatively you have already lost you are showing that you do
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you don't have dominance and yes to force someone to do something like that you're absolutely right
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that's a sign that they don't want to follow what you have to say yeah just based on what you have to
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say yeah i think real dominance manifests real husband dominance manifests in a wife going out of
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her way to try to anticipate his needs and the needs of the family without ever being asked because she
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understands her role he she understands what he brings to the table she understands his vision
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and if a man doesn't communicate his vision if he doesn't do these things she will not anticipate
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his needs she will not have the drive to to act on them or she won't think that they're that his his
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vision is legitimate and she won't act on it because there's very little motivation when you feel a lot
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of cognitive dissonance so i think that that's that's a big problem because i feel like that's not
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in ideal quiverful relationships that probably happens but i just don't you know like welcome to the
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world no relationship except for ours is if you ask is ideal yeah well and i think it is it's like
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our daughters growing up they're not going to feel like they're in a household where a man has all the
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power and a woman can't like yeah you you but i think also in in very extreme power dynamical
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relationships or at least like you know when a man really leads some things like part of what
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leadership means is delegating a huge swaths of influence to other people and i think in in many
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households where you see divisions of labor you will see like whoa like she i mean i control all the
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finances i control like a lot of things and you control a lot of things and they'll see that there's
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there's control on both ends and if someone's micromanaging they're not actually being a good
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leader and i think that's also where you see the ordering around and this perception
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of dominance that is performative and not yeah it's almost like they're larping being a man they
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they heard this concept of being a man and they like i understand that all of the power that i have
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over you is a gift from you to me and one that can be revoked it is power i have not due to some
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divine right but due to the fact that you trust me enough you know and uh if you stop trusting my
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decision making i'm not gonna have that power anymore and that's the way i relate to it and
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well that's how it's been for every natural leader throughout history every king every general understands
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that if he doesn't in any single moment manage to be naturally dominant his people will not follow
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there will be a rebellion there will be mutiny there will be whatever right like captains on ships don't
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stay captains because their title is captain captains on ships stay captain because they are the best
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leader for the ship like that changes and this is why you have desertion this is why you have mutinies
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this is why you have revolutions yeah no i i agree 100 and i you know i think
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yeah i just agree and i think that that's going to keep a lot more people in our cultural tradition
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then would stay in their tradition if you have a cultural tradition where you would just strictly
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be better off like if i'm born a woman leaving of course you're going to bleed women and then you're
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going to bleed men who think that the tradition's unfair and we've been seeing this more recently it
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used to be that women stayed with conservative traditions at a higher rate than men but recently
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the trend has reversed and women have started leaving at a higher rate so for example now mormonism
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is a majority male religion which never used to be the case yeah all the friends that we knew who
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even converted in were women because they really bought the wholesome family lifestyle thing we knew
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a lot of women who've converted out too that's true that's true yeah because of the feminist issues
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yeah and they're like wait a second this is super not okay with me this is deeply unfair like yeah
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from their perspective anyway i'll keep going here the decline it seems driven by multiple factors
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the backlash from abuse scandals such as those within the dugger family which received more
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attention post-2015 the unsustainable demands on adherence highlighting but highlighted by critiques
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of health and autonomy and a cultural shift away from such extreme natalism in broader society well
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there i don't i don't know i mean maybe i guess yeah birth rates have fallen it's become less cool
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while not extinct its influence is likely reduced with a smaller more insular community compared to its
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earlier ambitions of demographic and cultural dominance while specific 2025 deconversion rates
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for quiverful children are not available anecdotal evidence suggests for example what it was like to
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grow up in quiverful cosmopolitan features hannah ediger raised in the movement who is now completely
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in a new life implying deconversion a reddit post in our deconstruction our deconstruction of large
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quiverful families and i read a lot about on this thread discusses large families and deconversion
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though it's anecdotal the lack of numerical data is a gap but a pattern exists especially given
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controversies like abuse within the dugger family as mentioned in the untold truths of quiverful
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christianity grunge supports the idea of higher deconversion so i was like okay let's go to that
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family that had 19 the duggers how many of their kids stayed in both the religion and its high fertility
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goal 11 of their children did oh like what's the two of the 19 yeah that's bad but it's not as bad as you
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think because what we actually find is if you then say okay let's just look at the older ones because
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some are like 16 16 18 19 those don't count right so let's only look at the 12 who are over 25 right
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now only two of those 12 don't have children and of the other 10 all of them have over two children but
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one there there are a few that are pregnant with their third but yeah so they are dramatically higher
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fertility than normal interesting huh just anecdotally every time i hear some interview
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with someone who deconverted and and had a really large religious family it was a quiverful family
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not not mormon not oh i guess there's eight passengers so there's that one well eight passengers
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with another really large christian family that got famous and her kids they were mormon so
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deconverting yeah i guess can are are some mormons quiverfuls i i guess you should ask like how
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religiously siloed is this concept of because it's a biblical line you don't have to be like
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whatever i imagine you can you can be any movement yeah it's like whatever but i i would count her as
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part of that larger movement you know very strict parenting very very different parenting style than
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our parenting as well like we are known as being strict because we use like light corporal discipline
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with our kids which is super taboo these days but this is not like what quiverful families do
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where they do like very serious spankings and stuff like that yeah or like i i think it overlaps
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with that book that guides mothers to like teach their baby to stay on a small blanket and like
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hurt them a little yes actually that was one of the the controversies we're going to be talking about
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okay yeah so there's also just this like how it works well like they're just trying to use
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condition like basic conditioning to learn how blanket training works right so you you you put your
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infant on a like square blanket on the ground and it doesn't have any fence or walls or anything and
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then every time they go towards the edge of it you like flick their wrist or do something that hurts
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them a little bit so they associate going off the blanket with pain and eventually they will just
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stay on the blanket and not go off of it and that is convenient especially for mothers of larger
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families because they can just put the blanket down anywhere and expect that their kid is going to stay on it
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and that's dead i don't know there's just something like deeply dystopian and really sad about that to
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me like you just like a broken i don't know our kids lack that for going off beds but you know our
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kids our kids yeah like that even when like they they have a real scare and like wanna like they just
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they just desperately want to fall off surfaces and we are constantly being like this is a cliff do not
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i i understand your point here but i just i i what our our corporal punishment is more like you are
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about to severely hurt yourself or put yourself in danger or one of your siblings in danger you gotta
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knock this off like let's you're not listening to my words this is different it is i'm going to
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break your will i'm going to make you a compliant domesticated human and yes this is you're right
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the the difference is that they are trying to domesticate their children and we're trying to
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make our children maximally fierce it's a completely different way of relating to them
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well it's very backward versus puritan honestly the puritan way of raising kids and we like some
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things about it like this idea of having kids like confront their mortality and all that like some
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some harsh elements of puritan upbringing historically they had them look at corpses and stuff and be like
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like staring into graves until they cried like i i get that like except that when we do that with
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our children they just don't get it you know or they do but they don't care i guess i think you're
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you're absolutely right where it is moving away from strictness for the sake of strictness i'd almost
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say like it's like two dogs like one dog you're trying to force to follow every order that's ever given
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right and the other dog you're training to fight other dogs like okay we're training our dads the
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way you would train a pit bull you know you want to wonderful just be absolutely unhinged and and and
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and go but you know to a pit bull every toddler and a small dog is just another snack that's that is
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how pit bulls see the world you got to see our video on the one ethical genocide i do think we should
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get rid of pit bulls um i agree with you but it's just like a different way of relating to raising a
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thing like is the boundaries that you are placing on them to make them stronger is it to get them to
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be tougher or is it because you're trying to get them to follow a very constrained trajectory
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and with us now does this mean that they have a higher chance of leaving the family
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yes because you're you're trying to make them like have will and want to leave the family but in a way
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because of that it also brings them back to the family not through like punishment or fear or
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whatever but through pride and that i'm a collins and this is what i was always taught growing up you
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are a collins and collins are better than other people it's just very clear it's like this is what's
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expected of you because you're collins and i was like well other people don't do that and they go well
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other people aren't collins and i remember being like oh yeah like i have more rules of this type
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this like expected of my personal behavior because i'm better than other people and i think that
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i i don't know if my opinion of myself has changed much as time has gone on but i think
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that kids would relate the same way is that if you if you do this right they're gonna be like
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yeah but i'm the best right why would i leave a family when the family is super awesome and
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especially if i like my siblings and that was something that was noted in the thread over and
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over again when people were complaining about their large families they would complain about
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stuff for like obviously some therapist or urban monoculture person had gotten their hooks in them
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and that's weird but they always said that they really appreciate all their siblings
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and they wouldn't want any of them not to exist and that that's the thing that was most
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important to them and exciting about growing up that way and so you really don't get this and i i'd say
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this is true of the large families i know i do not see this pushback of like oh i wish my siblings
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didn't exist it's just the totalitarian way that the religion was communicated to them is what causes
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them to to split off and i think within religions that have lower deconversion rates like judaism
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like orthodox judaism it is the factions that are either isolated from the rest of the world those
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have very low deconversion rates like they isolate them educationally and everything like that
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so they can't easily get a job in the outside world which is not great i wouldn't do that
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yeah or the ones that are just like strict in their belief system but not in like
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authoritarianly pushing it on children through things like punishment
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but let's get into some of the any thoughts before i go further no no go further
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all right let's get into some of the controversies so i'm gonna start with all the controversies that
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don't involve josh because that's a whole different scenario so this was a controversy
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brought up in the docuseries shiny happy people where one daughter who also wrote a book about this
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and complained a lot she she's like jill unpaid 7.5 years of labor this isn't helping was raising the
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other kids this is in being on air but she mostly just complained about being on tv a lot and and not
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liking tv at her wedding and another important business and i'm like fine but i don't really have
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anything to do with you being in a large family it has to do with their father exploiting them which
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that's pretty clear from all the stuff that happened and then another big backlash and this caused
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tlc's removal of the show apparently or was part of it was derek dillard's quote-unquote homophobic
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tweets in 2017 where he where what did he say he called transgenderism a myth
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okay so stupid if you're gonna have like a transphobic tweet that's that's a pretty stupid
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transphobic tweet it caused him to be removed from counting on family tensions yeah i i don't
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it's not what like that's mainstream these days yeah he he came too early right you know now we've got
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the travestock report now we've got you know everything that's going on since the post-election
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vibe shift for everyone's like okay yeah it's probably a culture-bound illness and and leads
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to a lot of unaliving attempts that don't exist in any other culture on earth no other culture on earth
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i mentioned this before i'll mention every chance i get no other culture on earth and no other time
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period on earth while you see gay people everywhere throughout history and cultures trans people are
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completely absent except for modern context and note here i'm not talking about gender fluidity gender
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fluidity exists all over history but being obsessed with the gender that other people see you as to the
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point where you would want to kill yourself because they don't see you as the gender you see yourself
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this is not a phenomenon anywhere else in human history and and obviously it's a very mentally taxing
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phenomenon that we would prefer didn't exist and proliferate so he's completely right about this
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next year you have tutors marriage to sex offender this is tab as a page so tutor married convicted
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sexual assault offender duggars through engagement party significant backlash question family values
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whatever the josh is the big one and it's the one that i'm more worried about i want to learn from
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the most prominent scandals on josh duggar the eldest child in touch weekly published a 2006 police
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report revealing josh as a teenager molested five underage girls including four sisters jill jessa jinga and
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jana well they really like those jays with offenses occurring between 2002 and 2003 when he was 14 to
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15 the report later confirmed by people detailed groping while victims slept confessed to parents
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and received counseling but the revelation led to tlc or at least was part of it canceling 19 kids and
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counting on june 16th 2015 as noted in josh duggar's wikipedia this fallout was named one of the
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10 big scandals of 2015 by usa today and the washington post listed josh as one of the most
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hated people online that year the same year on august 19th 2015 gawker reported josh had active
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accounts on ashley madison this is when the leak happened i guess a website for extramarital affairs
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confirmed by people leading to his public apology on the family website admitting a pornography addiction
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and cheating on his wife anna he checked into a face-based rehab program centered in rockford
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illinois on august 2015 as per people victims jill and janna came forward in 2015 interviewed on kelly
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file with megan kelly well he creepily watched behind the camera by the way what he was there on set
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like they were coerced into doing that just horrible the whole thing was horrible and this is i mean it's
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i don't care what your arousal problems might be or like what what inconvenient things turn you on
00:25:33.580
you're garbage person if you do these things like what i think just over and over again chose to hurt
00:25:42.360
people and do things to people without their consent it's he's just a garbage person and the fact
00:25:48.460
hold on we'll we'll see more about this but continue the fact that well you a quiverful
00:25:56.300
family that raises someone like that is not clearly is is is not creating a culture that is
00:26:02.540
good it is not imparting fitness at all failure drop it they i disagree i'm gonna push back a little
00:26:12.220
longer they had 19 kids okay and he was their first true yeah you get bad apples with i'm just like i i
00:26:21.020
look at this and i think that you and this perception you have that if we raise our kids right they won't
00:26:27.660
do this is inaccurate i think that we have to be constantly vigilant even if we're good parents 100%
00:26:36.620
in terms of how we train them how we train them to report and talk to us about things which
00:26:42.060
apparently wasn't happening effectively in this but also what what you do when problems are reported
00:26:47.340
because this was reported multiple times and well and he went to counseling after it was reported but
00:26:54.620
i think that it was reported by him and not by things like his sisters and stuff like this and i
00:26:58.780
think you need a system where the entire family is like on watch or i think this is also reported by
00:27:04.860
girls from other people's families it wasn't just him coming forward i don't think this was him
00:27:11.180
coming well i mean i look at things he's doing when he's 14 and 15 and this requires i mean i actually
00:27:15.500
think that this is why it's good to have all the kids sleep in the same room they were in the same
00:27:18.860
room by gender at least because it's much easier to what safety in numbers yeah safety numbers one of the
00:27:26.380
other kids can report on the kid who's doing the wrong thing and every kid knows that every other kid is
00:27:31.260
watching yeah they snitch on each other they would absolutely snitch on each other and i think that
00:27:37.660
that's a powerful way you can prevent creepy kids from being creepy to other kids right uh
00:27:45.020
and yeah i i i see how something like this could happen if like the oldest kid is the problem as well
00:27:51.820
because then you have to worry about reprisals and stuff like that which is why maybe it matters that
00:27:56.940
you focus on the oldest kid being more moral or focus a lot on moral teachings with the older kid
00:28:02.140
we're fortunate and that our oldest kid is very obsessed with rules no he won't let us continue
00:28:08.460
like i'm driving and a naughty word is said on a show that i'm watching or on a song because that's a
00:28:14.460
bad show you got to turn it off you gotta you gotta play something else he won't he will not let me
00:28:19.900
watch things that have curse words in them which i absolutely love yeah he won't have it i love it which is
00:28:25.580
why one of the reasons we're trying to remove curse words from the show which i'm doing more of you
00:28:29.100
know yes even believing them out when they're in the little clips so i don't but you know we don't
00:28:34.220
know what he's going to be like when he goes through puberty you know it's it's it's worth really working
00:28:38.860
on that with the oldest kids to ensure that we set a good sort of direction yeah yeah and what we've
00:28:45.500
seen with other kids is if you look at like the the eight passengers situation the older kids are the
00:28:51.980
ones who basically set up a deconversion pipeline for the younger kids yeah and so yeah but we'll
00:28:58.220
get into more of this so in april 2021 you might not know about this josh faced another scandal when
00:29:03.980
he was arrested on april 29th for receiving and possessing child pornography oh yeah
00:29:08.460
was material from may 2019 depicting abuse of children under 12 as detailed by people he pleaded guilty
00:29:16.620
facing up to 20 years and a quarter million dollar in fines uh found guilty in 2021 blah blah blah to
00:29:23.660
12 years in prison with 20 years under supervision prohibited from unsupervised contact with minors
00:29:29.580
and fines of 50 100 per people family reactions varied was michelle and anna supporting him
00:29:36.860
while his cousin amy duggar king opposed calling the family delusional in an ex post urging anna to divorce
00:29:43.500
as noted in people now so i asked how did they teach sex ed to their children because like what
00:29:49.180
could have led to this behavior right and i actually think a lot of the behavior is downstream of this
00:29:53.100
the dunggar family well known for their conservative christian beliefs and future reality tv show
00:29:57.260
provided limited sex education primarily emphasizing abstinence until marriage it seems likely that men
00:30:02.540
received a brief talk and a christian themed book before marriage while women were given little to no
00:30:08.860
formal education accepting guidance from their husbands their homeschooling curriculum based on
00:30:14.300
the advanced training institute ati program avoided discussion of sex creating a taboo and spreading
00:30:20.300
misinformation with strict modesty rules and limited physical contact before marriage that's what i think
00:30:26.860
a lot of this comes down from and i think a lot of the deconversions come down from this if you teach
00:30:31.020
somebody as i've always said like engaging with pornography makes you a bad person and they're a young man
00:30:37.100
as we know basically all young men except those in the most extreme religious conditions like there's
00:30:42.140
a famous case where they tried to do a study and they wanted to find men who had never seen used porn
00:30:47.180
before as as like a control in the study and they had to abandon it because they couldn't find enough
00:30:52.060
men in that category and i think a man has to be pretty sexually atypical to fall into that category
00:30:57.660
and that being the case you know it means that if you teach them while you're sinful and this is really
00:31:03.260
horrible if you're engaging in this stuff especially with the internet as it is these days then you just
00:31:08.140
have all of them thinking that about themselves which makes them think well then why not just leave
00:31:16.220
well if yeah either you stay and you're secretly a monster or you leave yeah and then it's like well
00:31:22.460
then what's the additional bad to molestation yeah yeah yikes not good tell someone they're a monster for
00:31:30.620
doing this is this is also why we push back against things like louise perry's while we like her as a
00:31:36.380
person and as an influencer her idea that women are only into choking because men have like diluted
00:31:43.020
them and women are only into like being put in positions of let's put masochistic submission because
00:31:49.500
of men liking this stuff that's not the data doesn't support it untrue yeah this is driven by women women
00:31:56.300
prefer this more than men prefer doing it men did not make 50 shades of gray a bestseller and women
00:32:01.260
were not buying it to show off to men yeah what what we see is is if you are honest about this stuff
00:32:07.260
and you tell your daughters hey it's normal to be into this stuff it's normal to be into what was the
00:32:14.140
whole vampire phenomenon it was about having guys come on it's normal normal normal to be into this as a
00:32:21.980
woman don't think that you're sinful don't think that you're a deviant just don't think that just
00:32:29.020
because it turns you on you want it either like yeah it's another really important point here just
00:32:34.780
because something turns you on doesn't mean you morally condone it or that you want it to happen
00:32:38.380
or that it would be good if it happened so that's yeah and i think that that when we when we break away
00:32:45.180
from this dugger mindset around something like pornography or the louise perry mindset you don't have kids
00:32:50.700
feel ashamed about things that are totally normal and through that there's less of a an idea of like
00:32:58.220
oh i don't like being in this family or oh i'm i'm sort of scared to be in this environment or this
00:33:03.500
household because i know that i'm not living up to the standards that i assume everyone else is living
00:33:09.020
up to right when in reality very few people actually live up to these standards uh and and then you because
00:33:16.300
you're already breaking one moral norm it's like well i'm already a horrible person and then you
00:33:20.060
begin to contextualize this into your identity and i think that that what people need to realize one of
00:33:26.060
the things that we always point out and we have you can look at our our cast looks about to go extinct
00:33:30.060
episode i talk about low fertility rates and high deconversion rates among some other christian
00:33:36.540
movements and i think was in these movements there's this perception that well how quickly could you
00:33:42.220
really disappear as a movement that at least attempts to be high fertility and attempts to espouse
00:33:47.100
high fertility values and i think the dugger show you how quickly fast the quiverful movement shows you
00:33:52.220
how quickly fast a generation yeah that's how fast definitely like two generations yeah i'm also looking
00:34:01.580
at google trends interest over time for quiver quiverful not as a search term but it's like the broader
00:34:08.300
religious concept sharing this with you just so you have it it it had spikes every now and then it
00:34:15.180
probably mostly due to media stuff and the most recent spike was in 2022 may and it was one of the
00:34:22.860
smaller spikes that has ever taken place so it is it is clearly on the on the downfall it appears to be in
00:34:29.580
its death throes yeah well i and this is why i think like authoritarian religious structures are
00:34:37.580
just a very bad at working in a modern context yeah and if that's the way you're relating your
00:34:42.620
religion to kids they will leave it and they will help your other kids leave it interestingly when you
00:34:48.300
compare quiverful to natalism quiverful religious concept natalism belief the 2004 to present total
00:34:57.100
search volume for quiverful is much larger like it definitely was a way bigger concept than
00:35:01.900
pro natalism in the past but basically ever since only 2023 when you and i started really pushing
00:35:12.380
for it natalism has clearly started to take over yeah very interesting whereas quiverful has kind of died
00:35:20.540
out quiverful had much bigger spikes i think that's probably mostly because of the duggars though
00:35:25.500
well and and media and you know i haven't molested a kid so yeah let's keep it that way
00:35:34.700
you've slapped kids though and i'm sure that helped with overall awareness so there we go right
00:35:40.140
whatever it takes bob gate was uh there's a bob gate i just i just gotta get a slapping machine
00:35:47.500
we'll get that with the documentary when it comes out
00:35:49.580
we're gonna have slap competitions now that i know it's a it's a sport the kids can i love you
00:35:57.580
practice on each other all right have a great day simone we'll go to the next episode i love you
00:36:06.380
you have the graphs by the way oh okay i just learned about an entirely new sport that there are
00:36:13.660
professional large stadiums filled with viewing this sport okay i didn't know it existed and
00:36:23.980
i would watch this maybe i am actually tempted to go watch the recorded versions of this can you guess
00:36:30.860
what it is do you need a hint that you would watch it okay what would you want yeah i need a hint i have
00:36:36.300
nothing other than that it's a sport oh the the medieval knights one no oh well the medieval knights
00:36:44.780
one looks pretty cool i've not heard of that so that's like actual jousting or no like they dress
00:36:50.620
up as knights and do like sword combat it looks pretty okay so like in the knight's tail when they
00:36:56.060
did the in the ring and they were doing sword combat yeah that kind of okay nope that's not it but
00:37:01.660
i didn't know that was a thing so that's awesome thank you for giving me one oh yeah so well i don't
00:37:06.060
know cool okay think of a game show where a man was an indian man was quite
00:37:16.380
disturbed by a woman's act it was a slapping game yes slapping competitions slapping comedy
00:37:22.620
and they feel like slow cams and you get points taken off if you flinch and it's both men and women
00:37:27.900
they have you know heavyweight lightweight categories etc they're they're medical professionals
00:37:32.780
on staff there's knockouts people break their wrists people break their noses and they have
00:37:37.900
you can see like the slow-mo of the slap hitting them and like the hand like reverberates as though
00:37:46.780
it is rubber the face of course ripples it and interestingly the person i was watching comment
00:37:53.180
on it for a little bit who taught me about this notice that women could take the slaps better
00:37:58.220
than men women seem to flinch a lot less and and looking at her footage it was really impressive the
00:38:03.660
men were flinching and i'm obviously the men are a lot stronger so i get it but moan this is why
00:38:10.300
these women have a lot more training than the men i mean shut up you terrible person you could just go up
00:38:19.580
there have no problem at all you are a professional at getting slapped just so people know i don't slap
00:38:27.580
my wire actually our kids would be amazing at it because remember in front of that journalist we
00:38:32.780
we did like we had like and they didn't flinch at all they would have gotten points in a slap
00:38:37.420
competition for their utter lack of flinching which is okay also simone i have to convince you
00:38:44.460
icksian labs is actually the perfect name for the studio remind me who the icks are in dune
00:38:50.460
so the icks are known for so there's two factions that produce a lot of technology in dune one is the
00:38:57.420
tylaxu that you don't really like so they do the biological engineering technology yeah the icks are
00:39:02.780
known for technology that skirts the butlerian jihad rules so they're the ones that are are they
00:39:07.820
the ones that are the personal computers of the wealthy people no no no what are they called make
00:39:13.420
real computers like like they're they're very if the tylaxus thing is sort of like being weird and
00:39:20.620
creepy whatever like the icks are known as being like overly clean like everything in their civilization
00:39:27.020
looks like an apple store they have a republic unlike the other governments in the empire which
00:39:32.940
are all like a like imperial or whatever and they create ai technology that is like clearly illegal so
00:39:40.860
like if you have on like a headset that like scans the environment and is like picking out like
00:39:45.660
ar so they do technology like that super advanced super clean technology hologram projectors stuff like
00:39:53.500
that okay so i like it except for the fact that when pronounced out loud it sounds like ick and
00:40:02.140
ick is even seeing come back like there's the new parlance of giving me the ick and it is not i think
00:40:11.020
something we would want as a brand name i don't it does not you didn't like mundo a mundo used with
00:40:19.260
other things because you saw it as negative but when i hear i think like necronomis mundo or whatever you
00:40:26.140
you know i think telenovelas and spanish tv so no no i'm i'm not that i have anything against
00:40:36.540
spanish as a language i just like i i don't think that's useful we'll keep playing with it if bruno likes
00:40:45.500
ick i'm gonna go with it because i like it so much well i respect bruno so i will defer to him but
00:40:52.780
the other one we have is is what is it sentience sentient systems but the reason i don't like
00:41:00.780
sentient systems that much i was thinking about like me at the third party developing on a platform
00:41:04.940
that was made by sentient systems and i'm like what i want to tell people that i like that sounds a
00:41:10.220
little like lame i don't know more than ixian ixian is cool sentient systems sounds a little lame and
00:41:18.860
then if you shorten it it becomes ss which was side scrollers problems i grew up with the initials
00:41:25.420
ss didn't realize that that it was problematic until it was a little late speaking of names maybe
00:41:33.180
our audience can settle a score although i've basically already overridden it because i've
00:41:37.020
just declared bankruptcy on having a dune related name for our next so our next kid is is the first
00:41:44.380
name okay but you don't no no take out the part where we give his first name because i need to
00:41:48.620
set up all his like domains and stuff and i don't want people camping on okay we'll take it but then
00:41:53.820
it doesn't mean anything if you just have the second name but whatever okay you just want the second
00:41:57.660
name so our yes we we are choosing a middle name for our fifth son who also we joke is the quiz
00:42:05.340
at hadara because he's got a really great potential iq based on his polygenic scores it puts him in like
00:42:12.140
the 98th to 98th sorry 99th percentile so that's like wow he's he's amazing and so i was joking we
00:42:19.100
should give him the middle name of atreides but then malcolm said no we should give him the middle name
00:42:24.460
of tylaxu and i think atreides it's honorable it's stately it's outside the normal moral constraint
00:42:33.900
because it's not as though paul is a goodie all the time he understands no hold on but atreides is
00:42:42.700
so basic tylaxu if you if you're going for nominative determinism and all of our kids have
00:42:47.500
gone nominative deterministic so far you know tylaxu is exactly the path we'd want them to go down
00:42:53.420
humanitarian crises using people's bodies against their will no no they don't even have a will anymore
00:42:59.820
they remove their brain there are alleged characters who say that they were used for
00:43:04.860
this purpose meaning that they do have a brain no that was there is sentience that the son did where
00:43:10.620
he went crazy and then he had them free isn't that still canon not in a meaningful not to any real fan
00:43:18.940
simone it is it is the bio crafter species that's what we want i do i do really want bioengineering to be
00:43:27.820
a family thing but i don't i just the humanitarian crisis angles just not there's no humanitarian
00:43:38.540
crisis it's a whiners it's the lisa simpson who calls us also atreides just sounds like a great name
00:43:45.180
and you'll you won't let me name any of our kids artanis so i need something that's like a
00:43:50.940
cool three-syllable kind of sci-fi a starting name give me something here the audience can weigh in
00:44:15.260
subscribers while i'm standing up i'm not holding it this is very fancy like and subscribe to the
00:44:24.220
channel if that is really fancy if you don't like us subscribe to the channel well you can still
00:44:31.900
i'm gonna comment the like down below tell us what you think about this in the comment below in our video bye