Based Camp - December 18, 2023


Who's Killing More Babies, Us or Catholics


Episode Stats

Length

45 minutes

Words per Minute

169.09

Word Count

7,749

Sentence Count

172

Misogynist Sentences

20

Hate Speech Sentences

47


Summary

In this episode, Simone and I discuss the Catholic Church's stance on abortion and prenatal science, and why we don't think it's a religion at all. We also talk about why we think Catholics should be kicked out of the church.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 biblical quotes do do a fairly good job of arguing that abortion is murder, but they actually also
00:00:05.380 do a fairly good job at arguing that talking somebody out of IVF is also murder.
00:00:15.000 That kid. So the Jeremiah 1.5, it says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Right. Which
00:00:21.720 implies life begins before conception, just as we say. We also believe we can determine truth
00:00:29.500 through investigations of nature and reality. After a sperm fertilizes an egg, that can split,
00:00:36.380 and that's where identical twins come from. That would mean the human soul splits. But even more
00:00:40.980 damning than that, human chimeras can also form. This is when two fertilized eggs end up combining
00:00:48.880 together into a single human being. If you look historically, you look at people like Augustine
00:00:56.120 If Hippo said that the soul enters a developing fetus 40 days after it begins developing,
00:01:03.420 Thomas Aquinas had the same view. I didn't realize how recently the Catholic Church had made a switch
00:01:09.420 on this issue. I think a lot of Americans, I did know how recently regular Protestants had made a
00:01:13.960 switch on this issue. This was seen as like a weird Catholic thing. It's a weird Catholic thing that had
00:01:18.680 only been around for about a hundred years. When you look at studies that show that half of all men
00:01:24.620 could be infertile without IVF by 2060, this is really important when you're talking about the
00:01:30.440 future of the Catholic Church. Would you like to know more? Hello, Simone. I am so excited to be joining
00:01:38.720 you for today's very, very spicy topic. And it is one that we have avoided going into detail on
00:01:47.860 mostly because I was like, let's just like not engage with it. I don't want to create a fight
00:01:52.660 within the prenatalist community or anything like that. And the group that we would be arguing the
00:01:59.040 most against within this episode are Catholics. Who we love. Don't worry. We love. It's actually
00:02:06.920 difficult for me because of every religion I have never, there's, there's no other religion where I
00:02:13.120 have literally really liked every single person I have ever met from that cultural group, except
00:02:19.820 Catholics. Catholics. I've literally liked every Catholic I have ever met. And yeah. Have you met
00:02:24.940 an unpleasant Mormon? I'm sorry, but like, I doubt that this is possible. I have met unpleasant Mormons.
00:02:30.760 Oh, that's true. There are some more progressive Mormons, which are really sort of status-seeky in a way
00:02:36.400 that I find kind of annoying and cringe, but generally I like Mormons a lot too. I I'm giving
00:02:42.240 you that. Okay. Um, but I've just never personally, and I think it's because I've met less Catholics
00:02:48.320 than I met Mormons. And that's why maybe I have this perception. If you can count it, it's fewer.
00:02:54.240 And if you can't, then it's more or less. Of course, of course. Sorry. I got it. So, so I am starting
00:03:02.260 that episode, this episode with that, because the other thing I need to admit going into this
00:03:07.880 is I approach Catholicism with a lot of bias against it as a religious group, specifically
00:03:19.780 for, it's an aesthetic bias. It's a bit like if I went to someone and I liked all of these people,
00:03:27.000 but they all had like runes carved in their head and stuff. And like, if they looked like
00:03:34.960 heretics from Warhammer 40k, so you might be being like, come on, Catholics don't come off
00:03:39.640 that way. Unironically, the Catholic aesthetic and perspective is like somebody went in to
00:03:47.720 Indiana Jones in the last crusade. And they're just like, yes, grab the big golden mug. That's
00:03:54.960 the right one. Which one is it? You must choose. Choose wisely. For as the true grail will bring
00:04:03.920 you life, the false grail will take it from you. I'm not a historian. I have no idea what it looks
00:04:12.060 like. Which one is it? Let me choose. Oh, yes. It's more beautiful than I'd ever imagined. This certainly is
00:04:27.920 the cup of the king of kings. Eternal life. What is happening to me? He chose poorly. It would
00:04:52.020 not be made out of gold. That's the cup of a carpenter.
00:05:10.440 You have chosen why? Because my perception, like when I read the Bible is like,
00:05:15.920 Jesus is not about like a guy on a giant throne framed in like golden outlays telling people what's
00:05:24.020 true and what's not true. You know, I look at something like the Pope Stephen VI and the cadaver
00:05:30.960 syndrome. You know, he put a dead pope on trial and had him hung. And I'm like, come on, this is not
00:05:36.580 like this system for deciding who God is talking through does not seem like it's working to me.
00:05:41.620 It's not selecting very well. It's not selecting very well. Well, so then then people will be like,
00:05:47.180 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But not all Catholic churches are like these big ostentatious displays
00:05:52.000 that make it look like somebody from the dark ages just went buck wild with a bedazzler. It's like,
00:05:57.180 yeah, you know, sometimes they do big displays of human corpses and bones. There's something I'd like
00:06:04.960 to show you. Something you might enjoy as one animal lover to another.
00:06:21.240 Something wrong, Mr. Ventura?
00:06:23.660 Of course not. This is a lovely room of death. Take care now. Bye-bye then.
00:06:30.800 It's like, you know, you're in this. Why human bones? Why the corpse cathedrals?
00:06:39.140 Have you looked at our caps recently?
00:06:43.460 Our caps?
00:06:44.700 The badges on our caps. Have you looked at them?
00:06:48.400 What? No. A bit?
00:06:50.680 They've got skulls on them.
00:06:55.760 Have you noticed that our caps have actually got little pictures of skulls on them?
00:07:02.140 I don't, uh...
00:07:03.500 Hands.
00:07:06.620 Are we the baddies?
00:07:10.520 We should be able to hold them at this point here, at least for a few hours.
00:07:14.060 I mean, why skulls, then?
00:07:17.760 Why skulls?
00:07:19.520 I mean, what does skulls make you think of?
00:07:22.800 Death.
00:07:24.100 Cannibals.
00:07:25.440 Beheading.
00:07:26.240 Um,
00:07:27.300 pirates.
00:07:28.320 Oh, you haven't been listening to ally propaganda.
00:07:30.520 Of course they're gonna say we're the bad guys.
00:07:32.560 But they didn't get to design our uniforms.
00:07:34.880 I need to say here,
00:07:36.880 it's actually kinda cool
00:07:38.460 in, like, a 40k, like, grimdark way.
00:07:41.880 Like,
00:07:42.040 grimdark way, sure.
00:07:43.840 It appeals to my young,
00:07:44.760 goth self,
00:07:45.980 and it appeals to my, like,
00:07:47.460 historian self.
00:07:48.800 But there's another part of me that is like,
00:07:52.440 yeah, but,
00:07:54.040 you know,
00:07:54.460 this person,
00:07:55.340 he's like,
00:07:56.220 you know,
00:07:56.800 it's like a person comes up to me,
00:07:57.920 but he looks like a 40k, like,
00:07:59.440 Warhammer cultist.
00:08:00.480 And he's like,
00:08:01.320 hi,
00:08:01.940 I'm Father Frank,
00:08:02.960 the bloodthirster,
00:08:04.080 and I have very pleasant things to say to you.
00:08:06.680 And I'm like,
00:08:07.640 yeah, but, you know,
00:08:08.400 all the ornateness,
00:08:09.280 because from our perspective,
00:08:11.200 right,
00:08:12.060 any wealth,
00:08:13.180 especially unearned wealth,
00:08:15.600 is a sign of sin.
00:08:18.240 Like,
00:08:18.560 indulging in unearned,
00:08:21.180 aesthetic pleasures within our reality
00:08:23.840 is a sign of sin.
00:08:26.280 And to indulge in that within a religious center
00:08:28.740 is like marking it as a house of sin.
00:08:32.420 I say all this because I think it's really important to note
00:08:35.300 when I am approaching a topic
00:08:37.300 with an extreme amount of personal bias,
00:08:40.340 which in this case,
00:08:41.420 I feel I am.
00:08:42.220 Let's get back to the topic at hand,
00:08:43.940 because this is really interesting to me.
00:08:45.660 So,
00:08:46.200 first,
00:08:47.820 it's important to understand
00:08:49.320 our perspective on when life begins
00:08:51.780 in relation to IVF,
00:08:54.760 and the Catholic perspective,
00:08:56.460 and the history of the Catholic perspective,
00:08:58.020 as well as the mainstream conservative perspective
00:09:00.820 in the U.S.
00:09:01.520 we as humans are responsible
00:09:04.400 every time I make a decision,
00:09:06.100 every time I make a choice
00:09:07.500 for everything that happens within the timeline
00:09:10.340 or reality that is created
00:09:12.280 because of that choice.
00:09:13.500 Mm-hmm.
00:09:13.960 So,
00:09:14.720 if I stop a sperm from fertilizing an egg
00:09:17.260 the moment before it fertilizes that egg,
00:09:19.340 or I squash the fertilized egg
00:09:21.060 the minute after that egg was fertilized,
00:09:23.320 to me,
00:09:23.700 those are two acts of exactly equal moral import.
00:09:27.600 Right.
00:09:28.040 Whereas to a Catholic,
00:09:29.240 one is killing a human life,
00:09:30.680 and the other is merely just generically immoral.
00:09:33.500 Whereas to me,
00:09:34.260 they do not seem particularly different.
00:09:36.200 But to me,
00:09:36.820 this also means that you are technically ending a human life
00:09:39.340 if a couple intended to have a child,
00:09:41.440 and you talk them out of having that child.
00:09:44.900 So,
00:09:45.460 anything that prevents a human child
00:09:48.240 from coming into existence,
00:09:49.940 because it is the actual human children
00:09:51.900 that have, like,
00:09:52.860 the moral weight to them,
00:09:54.260 right,
00:09:54.480 like these actual conscious entities,
00:09:56.340 you are responsible for ending that life.
00:09:59.560 So,
00:09:59.700 life starts as a spectrum of potentiality.
00:10:04.540 Yes.
00:10:05.420 And the more potentiality that has
00:10:06.860 to becoming an actual child,
00:10:08.300 the closer that is to an actual life.
00:10:11.440 That kid?
00:10:17.280 But why?
00:10:18.660 They are replacements of people
00:10:19.960 who had their existence consumed
00:10:21.520 by denizens of the Crimson World.
00:10:23.920 So,
00:10:24.580 first we need to get into
00:10:25.760 what Catholics actually think
00:10:28.000 and what conservatives actually think in the U.S.,
00:10:30.020 because a lot of people
00:10:30.920 are just not up to date
00:10:31.980 with their history on this subject.
00:10:33.460 Well,
00:10:33.960 yeah,
00:10:34.140 and it's not just so,
00:10:35.540 I think most people know
00:10:36.660 what Catholics and conservatives think,
00:10:38.200 which is life begins at conception,
00:10:39.700 and it's very,
00:10:40.960 very bad
00:10:41.600 to throw any...
00:10:43.100 I might be surprised at you here.
00:10:45.280 This is what they think today.
00:10:47.220 Yes.
00:10:47.700 So,
00:10:48.040 if you go to the 1970s
00:10:49.380 and you look at the National Conservative Conference,
00:10:51.460 where they did a poll on this,
00:10:53.140 more conservatives
00:10:53.980 were pro-abortion
00:10:55.720 than were anti-abortion.
00:10:57.380 This is because Catholics
00:10:59.520 used to be mostly a Democrat thing.
00:11:01.980 The Conservative Party
00:11:03.200 became anti-abortion
00:11:05.400 primarily to recruit Catholics
00:11:08.340 after a failed electoral cycle.
00:11:11.160 Oh, boy.
00:11:11.680 That was the purpose of it,
00:11:13.660 and they were really focused
00:11:14.720 on making this initiative
00:11:15.580 of the state's rights.
00:11:16.540 That's how they got their base on board with it,
00:11:18.560 even though their base
00:11:19.120 didn't really care about it.
00:11:20.640 Historically,
00:11:21.240 Protestants never really cared about this.
00:11:23.060 You know,
00:11:23.400 even Mormons,
00:11:24.120 you can look at what the Mormon teaching is,
00:11:25.540 they're totally pro-IVF,
00:11:26.980 so long as it's the husband's semen
00:11:29.000 and the wife's eggs
00:11:29.980 and you're not using another person.
00:11:31.780 So,
00:11:32.360 historically,
00:11:33.280 Protestants didn't really care about this.
00:11:35.280 Protestants started to care about this
00:11:36.960 and started to flex about this
00:11:38.540 because it began to become associated
00:11:40.340 with conservative identity
00:11:41.540 in the United States.
00:11:42.800 And people were like,
00:11:43.740 well, this is my team,
00:11:44.780 so this is what I believe.
00:11:46.200 But there wasn't like
00:11:46.880 a doctrinal reason for this.
00:11:48.480 And we'll get to the Bible
00:11:49.400 because this is also really interesting
00:11:51.340 if you look at quotes from the Bible.
00:11:52.840 But then you can be like,
00:11:53.460 yeah,
00:11:53.820 but Catholics have always been pro-this,
00:11:56.140 haven't they?
00:11:56.980 No,
00:11:58.240 they have not.
00:11:59.900 This is really interesting.
00:12:01.920 So,
00:12:02.280 if you look historically,
00:12:04.200 you look at people like
00:12:05.640 Augustine of Hippo,
00:12:07.180 a really important Catholic theologian
00:12:09.200 of the 4th and 5th century,
00:12:10.740 said that the soul
00:12:12.500 enters a developing fetus
00:12:14.460 40 days after it begins developing
00:12:17.820 if it's a male
00:12:19.060 and 80 to 90 days
00:12:21.020 after it begins developing
00:12:22.260 if it's a female.
00:12:23.020 Thomas Aquinas had the same view.
00:12:27.340 Now,
00:12:27.980 people would be like,
00:12:28.560 okay,
00:12:28.940 okay,
00:12:29.180 okay.
00:12:29.920 But what does the Bible say on this?
00:12:31.620 Like,
00:12:31.800 I have seen that the Bible says
00:12:33.320 abortion is wrong.
00:12:34.740 Right?
00:12:35.840 It does say that.
00:12:36.780 It absolutely does say
00:12:37.940 that abortion was wrong.
00:12:38.940 This perspective
00:12:40.040 that the Catholic Church took
00:12:42.080 with a completely logical
00:12:44.200 and morally aligned perspective
00:12:46.200 with the Bible
00:12:47.920 before IVF technology
00:12:50.440 was invented,
00:12:51.360 which is when they took it.
00:12:52.760 So,
00:12:52.940 when did the Catholic Church
00:12:53.880 take this perspective?
00:12:55.440 In 1869
00:12:57.020 with Pope Pius IX
00:12:59.640 when he said
00:13:01.100 delayed animation
00:13:02.060 was wrong
00:13:03.120 and affirmed
00:13:04.320 immediate insolment
00:13:05.360 at conception
00:13:06.080 and this has been
00:13:07.140 the Church's baseline teaching
00:13:08.500 ever since.
00:13:09.380 But this is not like
00:13:10.320 obviously what all
00:13:11.860 great Catholic thinkers
00:13:12.860 ever thought.
00:13:13.560 In fact,
00:13:14.000 the greatest of Catholic thinkers
00:13:15.300 thought otherwise
00:13:16.540 from this perception.
00:13:17.900 Yeah,
00:13:18.040 I guess I've not really heard
00:13:19.140 of anything else
00:13:19.840 that Pope Pius IX
00:13:21.060 has done,
00:13:21.700 to be fair.
00:13:22.400 In case you were wondering
00:13:23.300 what he did do,
00:13:24.060 he was the longest serving
00:13:25.260 pope in history
00:13:26.020 and he oversaw
00:13:27.460 the First Vatican Council
00:13:28.580 where he affirmed
00:13:29.900 his own papal infallibility.
00:13:32.840 And he is more
00:13:33.980 controversially known
00:13:35.180 for being the pope
00:13:36.860 who issued
00:13:37.820 the syllabus of errors.
00:13:39.400 This was a document
00:13:40.320 that argued
00:13:41.080 that things like
00:13:42.420 the following three statements
00:13:43.740 were errors
00:13:44.560 for Catholics to hold.
00:13:46.200 Every man is free
00:13:47.120 to embrace and profess
00:13:48.220 that religion
00:13:48.900 which guided by the light
00:13:49.920 of reason
00:13:50.320 he shall consider true.
00:13:51.580 In the present day
00:13:52.400 it is no longer expedient
00:13:53.780 that the Catholic religion
00:13:54.860 should be held
00:13:56.160 as the only religion
00:13:57.380 of the state
00:13:57.940 to the exclusion
00:13:58.920 of all other forms
00:13:59.880 of worship.
00:14:00.920 It has been wisely decided
00:14:02.760 by law
00:14:03.380 in some Catholic countries
00:14:04.720 that persons coming
00:14:06.140 to reside therein
00:14:07.360 shall enjoy
00:14:08.060 the public exercise
00:14:09.000 of their own peculiar worship.
00:14:10.720 basically it lays out
00:14:13.100 that Catholic countries
00:14:14.980 should not allow
00:14:16.000 non-Catholic worship
00:14:17.400 within them
00:14:18.200 and lays out
00:14:19.760 sort of the idea
00:14:20.720 of the modern
00:14:21.500 Catholic caliphate.
00:14:22.980 So of course
00:14:23.480 this is somebody
00:14:23.980 who we are going to
00:14:25.180 have some
00:14:26.380 moral differences with
00:14:28.380 when you look at
00:14:30.200 the world
00:14:30.880 from our perspective.
00:14:31.960 Yes, which is important
00:14:33.960 when we're talking
00:14:34.600 about like our problems
00:14:36.200 with how popes
00:14:37.220 are chosen
00:14:37.760 and the intellectual
00:14:38.500 thing of popes
00:14:39.080 but anyway
00:14:39.600 let's get back
00:14:40.540 He's not like famous
00:14:41.540 for you know
00:14:42.240 his various liaisons
00:14:44.040 female liaisons
00:14:45.320 etc.
00:14:46.520 No, let's
00:14:46.960 oh did he have
00:14:48.600 a problem with females?
00:14:49.600 No, I'm just saying
00:14:50.420 like other popes
00:14:51.420 were worse than him
00:14:52.880 for sure
00:14:53.440 in terms of like
00:14:54.160 actually being
00:14:54.920 fairly
00:14:55.480 you know
00:14:56.940 good
00:14:57.680 practicing religion.
00:14:59.840 So
00:14:59.960 so now
00:15:01.040 we're going to talk
00:15:01.620 about actual
00:15:02.320 biblical quotes
00:15:03.200 and and again
00:15:04.400 these actual
00:15:05.000 biblical quotes
00:15:05.580 do do a fairly
00:15:06.400 good job of
00:15:07.000 arguing that
00:15:07.500 abortion is murder
00:15:08.800 but they
00:15:09.820 actually also
00:15:10.800 do a fairly
00:15:11.220 good job
00:15:11.740 at arguing
00:15:12.560 that talking
00:15:13.000 somebody out of
00:15:13.500 IVF is also
00:15:14.460 murder.
00:15:15.140 So let's
00:15:16.320 talk about them.
00:15:17.580 Well Malcolm
00:15:18.420 your attempt
00:15:19.160 to use Bible
00:15:20.080 quotes to argue
00:15:21.040 with a Catholic
00:15:22.160 on the issue
00:15:23.240 of when life
00:15:23.740 begins is kind
00:15:24.540 of like
00:15:24.940 a civil law
00:15:26.700 lawyer
00:15:27.120 arguing about
00:15:28.160 law with
00:15:29.040 a common law
00:15:29.720 lawyer.
00:15:30.040 So to understand
00:15:31.800 what she's
00:15:32.200 saying here
00:15:32.680 civil law
00:15:33.280 and common
00:15:33.680 law are two
00:15:34.180 of the most
00:15:34.540 common law
00:15:35.020 systems used
00:15:35.600 in the world
00:15:35.940 today.
00:15:36.880 Civil law
00:15:37.500 says that
00:15:37.940 law is what
00:15:38.660 is in the
00:15:39.240 text
00:15:39.660 whereas common
00:15:40.840 law says
00:15:41.920 that law
00:15:42.620 is based
00:15:43.160 on previous
00:15:43.720 court decisions.
00:15:45.160 We in the
00:15:45.560 U.S.
00:15:45.920 actually have
00:15:46.400 a combination
00:15:46.840 of both
00:15:47.780 legal systems
00:15:48.400 but typically
00:15:49.040 you're using
00:15:49.560 one or the
00:15:49.860 other.
00:15:50.440 So let's
00:15:50.940 go through
00:15:51.340 some of
00:15:51.740 these quotes.
00:15:52.920 Okay
00:15:53.060 Jeremiah
00:15:53.540 1-5
00:15:54.620 quote
00:15:55.420 before
00:15:57.020 before
00:15:58.060 underline
00:15:59.380 here
00:15:59.800 I formed
00:16:00.840 you in
00:16:01.220 the womb
00:16:01.740 I knew
00:16:02.460 you
00:16:02.920 and before
00:16:04.100 you were
00:16:05.420 born I
00:16:06.020 consecrated
00:16:06.620 you
00:16:07.000 I appointed
00:16:07.920 you a
00:16:08.480 prophet
00:16:08.860 to nations
00:16:10.320 okay
00:16:11.400 now Paul
00:16:12.600 in Galatians
00:16:13.240 1-15
00:16:13.800 says that
00:16:15.000 God
00:16:15.360 quote
00:16:15.760 had set
00:16:16.540 him apart
00:16:17.460 before
00:16:18.580 he was
00:16:20.080 born
00:16:20.500 okay
00:16:21.160 so
00:16:21.520 repeatedly
00:16:22.020 in the
00:16:22.400 Bible
00:16:22.620 what you're
00:16:23.000 going to
00:16:23.500 say
00:16:23.920 and
00:16:24.580 this
00:16:25.180 is
00:16:25.360 what's
00:16:25.600 really
00:16:25.820 interesting
00:16:26.140 so the
00:16:26.500 Jeremiah
00:16:26.820 1-5
00:16:27.280 is like
00:16:27.560 really
00:16:27.860 the most
00:16:28.260 damning
00:16:28.540 because it
00:16:28.880 says
00:16:29.020 before
00:16:29.760 I formed
00:16:30.420 you
00:16:30.620 in the
00:16:31.160 womb
00:16:31.480 I knew
00:16:31.900 you
00:16:32.180 which implies
00:16:33.400 life
00:16:34.360 begins
00:16:35.160 before
00:16:35.960 conception
00:16:36.540 just as
00:16:37.600 we say
00:16:38.040 now if
00:16:38.520 you look
00:16:38.980 at other
00:16:39.260 quotes
00:16:39.480 I'm
00:16:39.640 just
00:16:39.760 going
00:16:39.840 to
00:16:39.880 go
00:16:39.980 through
00:16:40.140 like
00:16:40.360 all
00:16:40.680 of
00:16:40.800 the
00:16:40.900 quotes
00:16:41.100 used
00:16:41.280 to
00:16:41.380 argue
00:16:41.600 that
00:16:41.860 life
00:16:42.700 begins
00:16:43.000 at
00:16:43.100 conception
00:16:43.420 but
00:16:43.620 are
00:16:43.720 really
00:16:43.900 more
00:16:44.100 just
00:16:44.280 arguments
00:16:44.560 against
00:16:44.780 abortion
00:16:45.140 right
00:16:45.460 sorry
00:16:46.500 Isaiah
00:16:47.380 44-24
00:16:48.240 talks about
00:16:49.400 God as
00:16:49.960 your
00:16:50.140 redeemer
00:16:50.460 who formed
00:16:50.880 you in
00:16:51.200 the womb
00:16:51.620 except
00:16:52.380 again we
00:16:53.060 know from
00:16:53.680 Jeremiah
00:16:54.040 1-5
00:16:54.860 that God
00:16:55.640 knew us
00:16:55.900 before he
00:16:56.420 formed us
00:16:56.860 in the
00:16:57.060 womb
00:16:57.280 so you're
00:16:58.020 not
00:16:58.280 arguing
00:16:58.820 anything
00:16:59.160 by saying
00:16:59.480 your
00:16:59.720 redeemer
00:17:00.120 who formed
00:17:00.600 you in
00:17:00.820 the womb
00:17:01.100 or you
00:17:01.780 could say
00:17:02.120 in
00:17:02.320 plasm
00:17:02.680 139
00:17:03.500 for
00:17:04.240 you
00:17:04.780 formed
00:17:05.380 my
00:17:05.680 inward
00:17:06.220 parts
00:17:06.800 you
00:17:07.180 knitted
00:17:07.540 me
00:17:07.780 together
00:17:08.140 in
00:17:08.380 my
00:17:08.520 mother's
00:17:08.980 womb
00:17:09.240 you
00:17:09.820 saw
00:17:10.360 my
00:17:10.700 unformed
00:17:11.260 substance
00:17:11.800 in
00:17:12.220 your
00:17:12.420 book
00:17:12.760 were written
00:17:13.400 every one
00:17:14.560 the days
00:17:15.340 that were
00:17:15.600 formed
00:17:15.980 for me
00:17:16.600 when as
00:17:17.580 of yet
00:17:18.060 there was
00:17:18.580 none of
00:17:19.020 them
00:17:19.220 so he
00:17:21.300 was in
00:17:22.080 God's
00:17:22.960 book
00:17:23.480 before
00:17:24.420 he was
00:17:25.560 conceived
00:17:26.240 okay next
00:17:27.640 Genesis
00:17:29.500 2-24
00:17:30.780 therefore man
00:17:32.180 shall leave
00:17:32.700 his father
00:17:33.140 and mother
00:17:33.540 and be
00:17:33.920 joined
00:17:34.320 to his
00:17:35.700 wife
00:17:36.120 and they
00:17:37.460 shall become
00:17:38.080 one flesh
00:17:38.800 exactly what
00:17:39.720 we would
00:17:40.220 say given
00:17:41.160 the system
00:17:41.860 where life
00:17:42.880 begins before
00:17:43.800 conception
00:17:44.300 so this
00:17:45.540 is really
00:17:45.900 interesting
00:17:46.280 this seems
00:17:47.000 to be
00:17:47.340 backed up
00:17:48.000 by the
00:17:48.620 bible
00:17:49.120 okay
00:17:49.600 but being
00:17:51.160 protestants
00:17:51.600 the catholics
00:17:52.080 don't do
00:17:52.780 this as much
00:17:53.280 as protestants
00:17:53.820 do but
00:17:54.200 being
00:17:54.460 protestants
00:17:54.900 we also
00:17:55.400 believe that
00:17:56.000 God
00:17:56.240 inscribes
00:17:56.980 truth
00:17:57.740 in
00:17:58.600 nature
00:17:59.800 and in
00:18:00.660 reality
00:18:01.360 and we
00:18:02.100 can determine
00:18:02.820 truth through
00:18:03.700 investigations of
00:18:05.040 nature and
00:18:05.640 reality
00:18:06.080 okay
00:18:07.040 so this
00:18:08.500 is
00:18:08.620 what I mean
00:18:09.720 by this
00:18:10.100 is God's
00:18:10.740 not like
00:18:11.300 stupid
00:18:11.640 right
00:18:11.860 like again
00:18:12.560 we are not
00:18:13.080 like traditional
00:18:13.840 Christians
00:18:14.260 but we
00:18:14.720 believe
00:18:15.200 that God's
00:18:16.180 intention
00:18:16.600 was carved
00:18:17.760 into the
00:18:18.400 bible
00:18:18.760 for us
00:18:19.620 to study
00:18:20.020 and learn
00:18:20.460 from
00:18:20.800 if he
00:18:21.760 very
00:18:22.620 intentionally
00:18:23.260 has the
00:18:23.780 bible
00:18:24.020 multiple
00:18:24.680 times
00:18:25.520 say life
00:18:26.380 begins
00:18:26.780 before
00:18:27.160 conception
00:18:27.680 and never
00:18:28.780 once
00:18:29.560 has it
00:18:30.200 say life
00:18:30.680 begins
00:18:31.060 at conception
00:18:31.840 then my
00:18:33.000 read is
00:18:33.740 that would
00:18:34.080 have been
00:18:34.260 a very
00:18:34.840 easy
00:18:35.340 thing
00:18:35.760 for God
00:18:36.220 to put
00:18:36.540 in the
00:18:36.960 bible
00:18:37.260 if he
00:18:37.820 thought
00:18:38.220 if that's
00:18:38.700 what he
00:18:38.940 intended
00:18:39.220 to say
00:18:39.600 it would
00:18:40.400 have been
00:18:40.600 a very
00:18:41.080 easy
00:18:41.560 thing
00:18:41.940 for multiple
00:18:42.740 iterations
00:18:43.320 of the
00:18:43.680 Christian
00:18:43.960 tradition
00:18:44.380 to pick
00:18:44.820 up
00:18:45.100 and yet
00:18:45.920 really
00:18:46.700 only
00:18:47.100 Catholics
00:18:47.520 picked
00:18:47.820 this up
00:18:48.200 for a
00:18:48.480 long
00:18:48.660 time
00:18:48.980 and it
00:18:50.000 would
00:18:50.100 have been
00:18:50.260 a very
00:18:50.520 easy
00:18:50.700 thing
00:18:50.860 for early
00:18:51.380 Catholic
00:18:51.720 theologians
00:18:52.260 to pick
00:18:52.560 up
00:18:52.780 and yet
00:18:53.480 they
00:18:53.660 didn't
00:18:53.980 pick
00:18:54.200 it up
00:18:54.600 so it
00:18:55.340 seems
00:18:55.740 pretty
00:18:56.040 clear
00:18:56.400 to me
00:18:56.820 that God
00:18:57.300 did not
00:18:57.700 intend
00:18:58.160 that
00:18:58.360 he was
00:18:58.700 trying
00:18:58.960 to tell
00:18:59.440 us
00:18:59.740 and again
00:19:00.420 I believe
00:19:00.840 that God
00:19:01.860 reveals himself
00:19:02.600 over time
00:19:03.440 through science
00:19:04.180 and through
00:19:04.600 understanding
00:19:08.700 now let's
00:19:09.380 talk about
00:19:09.780 this
00:19:10.160 so Catholics
00:19:12.280 will say
00:19:12.620 yeah yeah
00:19:13.040 but let's
00:19:13.780 play it
00:19:14.080 safe
00:19:14.300 you know
00:19:14.520 the first
00:19:15.040 time
00:19:15.580 a biologically
00:19:16.960 and genetically
00:19:17.760 distinct
00:19:18.360 human being
00:19:19.060 exists
00:19:19.480 is when a
00:19:20.140 sperm
00:19:20.420 fertilizes
00:19:21.020 an egg
00:19:21.640 and therefore
00:19:22.780 we should
00:19:24.300 say
00:19:24.780 that that
00:19:25.480 is when
00:19:26.160 ensolification
00:19:27.200 happens
00:19:27.820 so you know
00:19:28.820 when you talk
00:19:29.240 about these
00:19:29.460 other people
00:19:29.780 they basically
00:19:30.100 say the soul
00:19:30.580 enters the
00:19:31.280 fertilized egg
00:19:32.060 later
00:19:32.380 except
00:19:33.620 God could
00:19:34.800 have made
00:19:35.160 us that
00:19:35.640 way
00:19:35.880 some species
00:19:37.360 work that
00:19:37.960 way
00:19:38.220 humans
00:19:39.300 don't work
00:19:40.120 that way
00:19:40.540 because after
00:19:41.680 a sperm
00:19:42.620 fertilizes
00:19:43.180 an egg
00:19:43.660 that can
00:19:44.700 split
00:19:45.180 and that's
00:19:46.060 where identical
00:19:46.520 twins come
00:19:47.340 from
00:19:47.640 if we go
00:19:49.200 with the
00:19:49.620 other
00:19:49.860 interpretation
00:19:50.440 that would
00:19:50.740 mean the
00:19:50.960 human soul
00:19:51.440 splits
00:19:51.840 but even
00:19:52.740 more damning
00:19:53.500 than that
00:19:54.180 human chimeras
00:19:55.500 can also
00:19:56.140 form
00:19:56.480 this is
00:19:57.300 when
00:19:57.600 two
00:19:58.400 fertilized
00:19:59.460 eggs
00:19:59.900 end up
00:20:00.480 combining
00:20:01.020 together
00:20:01.580 into a
00:20:02.500 single human
00:20:03.280 being
00:20:03.780 with the
00:20:04.580 DNA
00:20:05.020 of two
00:20:06.100 people
00:20:06.580 some famous
00:20:07.440 cases around
00:20:08.060 this was
00:20:08.420 like one
00:20:08.840 woman had
00:20:09.240 her children
00:20:09.680 taken from
00:20:10.280 her or
00:20:10.620 something
00:20:10.860 because they
00:20:11.660 genetically
00:20:12.240 weren't her
00:20:12.840 children and
00:20:13.460 nobody could
00:20:13.880 find out why
00:20:14.520 and she's
00:20:14.860 like no I
00:20:15.260 swear I
00:20:15.860 had these
00:20:16.320 kids they're
00:20:16.740 genetically
00:20:17.080 mine and
00:20:17.760 it turned
00:20:18.080 out she
00:20:18.400 was a
00:20:18.640 chimera between
00:20:19.280 her and
00:20:19.860 her technical
00:20:20.520 sister where
00:20:21.400 her reproductive
00:20:22.060 organs were
00:20:22.680 actually biologically
00:20:24.260 her sister's
00:20:25.080 reproductive
00:20:25.460 organs who
00:20:26.480 they had
00:20:26.900 merged together
00:20:27.620 in the womb
00:20:28.120 now why did
00:20:30.200 God allow this
00:20:30.900 to happen in
00:20:31.460 humans when this
00:20:32.000 doesn't necessarily
00:20:32.640 happen in all
00:20:33.420 biological life
00:20:34.100 forms because
00:20:34.760 he was
00:20:35.240 trying to
00:20:36.440 tell us
00:20:37.160 something and
00:20:38.700 the implications
00:20:39.700 of getting this
00:20:40.720 something he's
00:20:41.460 trying to tell
00:20:42.260 us are very
00:20:43.780 important and
00:20:45.560 of increasing
00:20:46.460 importance right
00:20:48.320 because it means
00:20:49.400 that so so let's
00:20:50.500 talk about why
00:20:51.220 they're very
00:20:51.680 important for
00:20:52.540 Catholics
00:20:53.000 specifically so
00:20:54.100 when we talk
00:20:54.600 about things like
00:20:55.320 falling fertility
00:20:56.080 rates okay that's
00:20:57.560 one thing but
00:20:58.440 when you look at
00:20:59.120 studies that show
00:20:59.760 that half of all
00:21:00.840 men could be
00:21:01.540 infertile without
00:21:02.440 IVF by 2060
00:21:03.940 this is really
00:21:05.300 important when
00:21:05.940 you're talking
00:21:06.340 about the future
00:21:07.280 of the Catholic
00:21:07.980 Church okay when
00:21:10.360 you look at
00:21:10.900 something like
00:21:11.540 Catholic majority
00:21:12.360 countries in
00:21:13.000 Europe having a
00:21:13.840 fertility rate of
00:21:14.800 can you guess
00:21:15.360 what it is Simone
00:21:16.000 1.9 1.3 no
00:21:21.920 oh my gosh
00:21:23.320 it's really low
00:21:25.100 wow so so
00:21:27.620 like right now
00:21:28.900 Catholics are
00:21:29.560 headed towards
00:21:30.060 extinction now
00:21:31.140 we may see
00:21:31.760 conservative
00:21:32.280 Catholic traditions
00:21:33.700 outpace progressive
00:21:35.000 Catholic traditions
00:21:35.740 but here's the
00:21:36.900 interesting and
00:21:37.540 great thing about
00:21:38.180 Catholicism when
00:21:39.900 we argue and
00:21:41.120 we say all this
00:21:42.100 and this is
00:21:42.980 probably going to
00:21:43.380 be what I'm
00:21:43.660 titling the episode
00:21:44.260 I think Catholics
00:21:44.940 are going to
00:21:45.260 change their mind
00:21:45.740 about this because
00:21:46.600 the Catholic Church
00:21:47.340 isn't stupid it
00:21:48.400 took these positions
00:21:49.700 because they were
00:21:50.900 the morally correct
00:21:52.080 positions when they
00:21:53.100 were taken before
00:21:54.420 IVF existed when
00:21:56.520 they were fighting
00:21:57.100 against abortion
00:21:57.980 yes they were
00:21:59.260 fighting for a
00:22:00.260 moral position
00:22:01.140 that was
00:22:01.980 absolutely correct
00:22:03.040 the lady couldn't
00:22:04.040 understand any
00:22:04.940 other position and
00:22:05.880 so of course they
00:22:06.620 were going to take
00:22:07.080 this position but
00:22:08.240 now that IVF does
00:22:09.700 exist and they are
00:22:10.680 preventing human
00:22:11.720 beings from coming
00:22:12.700 into this world
00:22:13.920 it's a very very
00:22:16.540 different argument
00:22:17.600 with very different
00:22:18.780 implications and
00:22:20.780 it's something that
00:22:21.660 their early thinkers
00:22:22.660 didn't believe it's
00:22:23.980 something that the
00:22:24.720 Bible doesn't support
00:22:25.980 so yeah they'll
00:22:27.860 change their minds
00:22:28.580 on this you know
00:22:29.660 it's the way that
00:22:30.580 they'll survive and
00:22:31.580 they're not stupid
00:22:32.320 and Catholics are
00:22:33.180 good intelligent
00:22:33.940 people they make
00:22:34.500 up as I pointed
00:22:35.540 out other than
00:22:36.560 conservative Jews I
00:22:38.200 point out multiple
00:22:39.280 times if you talk
00:22:40.060 about the conservative
00:22:40.580 intellectual class the
00:22:41.560 vast majority is
00:22:42.420 Catholics or Jewish
00:22:43.500 in ancestry which
00:22:45.360 which to me you
00:22:46.500 know it adds a lot
00:22:47.320 to the conservative
00:22:47.820 movement to happen
00:22:48.380 but here's where
00:22:50.440 this gets more
00:22:51.020 interesting so Simone
00:22:52.320 and I before we did
00:22:53.140 an episode on this
00:22:53.840 we're like there's
00:22:54.480 gotta be something
00:22:55.360 we're missing right
00:22:56.660 right and there
00:22:58.020 was this one of my
00:22:59.220 former classmates in
00:23:01.300 school actually then
00:23:02.940 went on to become an
00:23:04.540 ordained Catholic
00:23:05.420 priest so like this
00:23:06.480 is extremely helpful
00:23:07.300 we're like okay we
00:23:08.080 have someone on the
00:23:08.800 inside let us email
00:23:10.360 him and hopefully
00:23:11.820 he'll get back to us
00:23:12.660 and he did and he
00:23:13.860 was very generous to
00:23:15.040 take time to speak
00:23:15.800 with us and give us
00:23:17.180 both what he called
00:23:18.480 sort of the simple
00:23:19.100 answer and the more
00:23:21.280 complicated hard answer
00:23:22.480 both of which were
00:23:23.200 incredibly helpful with
00:23:24.840 you know the
00:23:25.340 the simple answer
00:23:26.380 basically being you
00:23:27.880 know if you have a
00:23:28.600 doubt about when
00:23:29.660 human life begins you
00:23:30.720 should err on the
00:23:31.560 side of the earliest
00:23:32.360 possible moment
00:23:33.900 but that doesn't
00:23:35.140 work with our
00:23:35.780 argument yeah because
00:23:37.040 we're we're erring on
00:23:37.900 the side of the
00:23:38.320 earliest possible
00:23:39.040 moment we believe it
00:23:39.900 begins before
00:23:40.780 conception but
00:23:41.800 continue but in
00:23:44.280 that way I guess and
00:23:45.000 this is going to
00:23:45.600 become ironic very
00:23:46.440 soon he's talking
00:23:47.600 about the earliest
00:23:48.280 possible moment in a
00:23:49.320 material sense when
00:23:50.540 you have a material
00:23:51.880 fertilized embryo the
00:23:53.620 deeper metaphysical
00:23:54.580 answer appears to
00:23:56.840 be related to a
00:23:58.540 split in materialistic
00:24:00.940 thinking that took
00:24:01.780 place around the time
00:24:03.000 of Rene Descartes so
00:24:04.680 the my my former
00:24:06.800 classmate and our
00:24:07.460 friend briefed us on
00:24:09.080 Aristotle's four
00:24:10.440 causes which I
00:24:12.100 wasn't familiar with
00:24:13.140 and Malcolm wasn't
00:24:13.780 either but there are
00:24:16.540 according to
00:24:17.640 Aristotle four causes
00:24:18.840 to a thing there is
00:24:19.980 the material cause that
00:24:21.460 from which as a
00:24:22.980 constituent present in
00:24:24.220 it a thing comes to
00:24:25.500 be so bronze or
00:24:27.200 silver are causes of
00:24:29.060 the statue and the
00:24:30.280 bowl then there's the
00:24:31.760 formal cause the
00:24:33.420 form i.e. the
00:24:34.840 pattern the form is
00:24:36.480 the account of the
00:24:37.400 essence and the parts
00:24:38.740 of the account then
00:24:40.120 there's the efficient
00:24:40.920 cause this is the
00:24:41.920 source of the primary
00:24:42.960 principle of change
00:24:44.800 or stability so the
00:24:46.600 man who gives advice
00:24:47.580 the father of the
00:24:48.520 child the producer is
00:24:50.420 the cause of the
00:24:51.420 product and the
00:24:52.500 initiator of the
00:24:53.400 cause is a cause of
00:24:55.160 what changed so like
00:24:56.160 the cause is sort of
00:24:56.840 why why it happened I
00:24:57.900 guess the efficient
00:24:58.380 cause and then
00:24:59.180 there's the final
00:24:59.760 cause which is
00:25:01.160 something's end what
00:25:03.040 it is for in its
00:25:04.880 cause as you know
00:25:06.660 health is the cause of
00:25:07.760 walking according to
00:25:09.060 some people so the
00:25:10.840 first two causes are
00:25:12.320 pretty sort of like
00:25:13.160 literal and
00:25:14.020 materialistic but our
00:25:16.200 friend argued that the
00:25:17.060 second two causes are
00:25:18.500 sort of what got thrown
00:25:19.580 out with the bath
00:25:20.760 water after Descartes
00:25:22.960 very much changed
00:25:24.000 philosophy around a
00:25:25.860 sort of mathematically
00:25:26.560 based metaphysical
00:25:27.960 understanding of
00:25:28.560 reality that we cannot
00:25:29.660 trust anything that we
00:25:31.040 cannot prove
00:25:31.820 mathematically that we
00:25:32.980 cannot see that we
00:25:33.980 cannot touch and with
00:25:37.160 that change in
00:25:37.920 philosophy a lot of
00:25:39.360 really important
00:25:40.240 metaphysical stuff was
00:25:42.120 lost and so
00:25:44.500 so essentially
00:25:45.840 the he's arguing
00:25:49.860 the efficient cause
00:25:51.020 and the final cause
00:25:52.100 were lost in that
00:25:53.160 and that's sort of
00:25:53.860 where like the soul
00:25:55.080 of a person comes in
00:25:56.360 their essence their
00:25:57.740 humanness which
00:25:59.220 doesn't have like
00:26:00.260 measurable human
00:26:01.380 elements was lost so
00:26:03.240 people you know
00:26:04.160 trying to to throw
00:26:06.700 the argument of the
00:26:08.600 Catholic Church of
00:26:09.260 when life begins into
00:26:10.180 these materialistic
00:26:11.080 terms is kind of losing
00:26:12.740 the point in the first
00:26:13.580 place according to this
00:26:14.540 argument because it is
00:26:16.920 not actually about
00:26:17.700 materially what's
00:26:18.660 happening and when
00:26:19.440 this is about the
00:26:20.120 human soul this is
00:26:21.040 about when something
00:26:21.580 becomes human and
00:26:23.060 going back to the
00:26:23.700 original argument
00:26:24.580 which is what it
00:26:25.200 looks like when you're
00:26:25.820 looking at the
00:26:26.260 original works on this
00:26:27.020 continue right and
00:26:28.340 when it comes back to
00:26:29.080 that original much
00:26:29.740 simpler argument if
00:26:31.080 we're not sure and we
00:26:32.140 can't be sure because
00:26:32.980 this is all stuff that
00:26:34.080 is not you know
00:26:34.740 material this is all
00:26:35.660 very complicated we
00:26:37.040 should have the
00:26:37.820 biggest preponderance
00:26:39.000 of caution possible
00:26:40.560 yes which again would
00:26:42.660 have us say
00:26:43.480 yeah so you're
00:26:44.480 killing kids and
00:26:45.600 you're killing lots
00:26:46.320 of kids given the
00:26:47.920 increasing fertility
00:26:49.380 decline and as the
00:26:50.760 fertility decline
00:26:51.420 increases you're
00:26:52.380 killing more and
00:26:53.120 more kids every year
00:26:54.220 like I understand why
00:26:55.420 they took the original
00:26:56.000 perspective but here's
00:26:56.660 where it gets really
00:26:57.100 interesting so this
00:26:58.240 entire argument you
00:26:59.260 know was based on
00:27:00.320 Aristotle the original
00:27:02.620 yeah like this this
00:27:03.620 this idea of the
00:27:04.680 formal and efficient
00:27:05.440 cause also being
00:27:06.780 really important beyond
00:27:07.820 material mathematically
00:27:08.720 proven things all of
00:27:10.020 his stuff was
00:27:10.580 Aristotelian because
00:27:11.760 he's basically saying
00:27:12.680 that there was like a
00:27:13.660 pre-descartes and
00:27:14.980 post-descartes era
00:27:16.120 and the pre-descartes
00:27:17.520 era at least when it
00:27:19.500 came to like modern
00:27:20.280 philosophy as we're
00:27:21.240 familiar with it was
00:27:22.460 driven by Aristotelian
00:27:24.080 before we go further
00:27:25.440 I gotta ask a lot of
00:27:27.440 questions yeah
00:27:27.860 Aristotle's thought
00:27:28.800 life didn't begin until
00:27:29.660 40 days after for boys
00:27:31.160 and 80 days after for
00:27:32.160 girls
00:27:32.400 so Aristotle does not
00:27:38.220 believe that his theory
00:27:39.460 agrees with this
00:27:40.520 preacher
00:27:40.860 sorry
00:27:42.280 what
00:27:43.460 for boys it's so much
00:27:48.020 earlier whereas like in
00:27:49.340 reality you know like a
00:27:51.220 zygote like it starts out
00:27:52.740 is like you know the
00:27:53.840 default blank is like
00:27:54.940 female and like you have
00:27:56.140 to go through more steps
00:27:57.220 to become a boy so like I
00:27:59.020 guess if you're trying to
00:27:59.880 like make a scientifically
00:28:00.760 based version of this it
00:28:02.180 should be
00:28:03.560 the boys start at 80
00:28:05.220 days and girls start at
00:28:06.940 40 days
00:28:07.740 forget that
00:28:10.000 because
00:28:10.720 girls
00:28:11.540 anyway
00:28:12.400 they need to have time
00:28:13.360 for their penises to
00:28:14.360 invert
00:28:14.700 don't you understand
00:28:15.840 if begin
00:28:17.380 he thought it began 40
00:28:19.740 days after the embryo
00:28:20.760 started developing or 80
00:28:22.060 days after in the case of
00:28:23.040 a woman
00:28:23.320 well I don't think our
00:28:24.280 friend knew that
00:28:25.340 no he didn't know this
00:28:26.520 but this is what's
00:28:27.320 interesting and this is
00:28:28.200 why
00:28:28.620 yes
00:28:29.100 you know if so the
00:28:31.060 bible doesn't support
00:28:31.940 this the early catholic
00:28:33.080 thinkers don't support
00:28:34.480 this it's a decision
00:28:35.720 that made sense and
00:28:36.680 saved lives when the
00:28:37.880 decision was made
00:28:38.780 yes
00:28:39.260 now likely leads to
00:28:40.480 more death than it
00:28:42.040 helps and at the end
00:28:42.900 of the day the groups
00:28:43.620 that believe it whatever
00:28:44.500 the case is if human
00:28:46.120 fertility continues to
00:28:47.140 decline at the rate it
00:28:47.920 has been declining are
00:28:49.360 going to become extinct
00:28:50.600 so it's a relative what
00:28:51.840 they believe you know
00:28:52.680 and this is where we get
00:28:53.960 to the final another
00:28:55.060 point that he was
00:28:56.040 pointing out right he's
00:28:57.220 like well um you know
00:28:59.940 you can't use this
00:29:00.700 technology because it's
00:29:01.620 profane because of like
00:29:02.860 the associations with it
00:29:04.300 because it's playing
00:29:04.960 god
00:29:05.480 right because it's
00:29:06.960 playing god and this
00:29:08.500 brings me to my two
00:29:11.060 boats and a helicopter
00:29:11.940 people who don't know
00:29:13.060 two boats and a
00:29:13.640 helicopter it's a famous
00:29:14.740 sermon which is a guy
00:29:16.660 is praying to god and
00:29:19.160 he says he's a very
00:29:20.460 pious man and he says
00:29:21.480 please save me for this
00:29:22.480 flood and then a boat
00:29:23.880 comes and he says oh
00:29:25.580 no don't worry god's
00:29:26.780 gonna save me i've been
00:29:27.780 praying to him i'm a
00:29:28.660 very pious man and so
00:29:29.700 the boat leaves and then
00:29:30.500 the next boat comes he
00:29:31.780 goes don't worry you
00:29:33.440 know god's gonna save
00:29:34.600 me don't worry about it
00:29:35.360 the water's getting
00:29:36.260 higher he's on his roof
00:29:37.560 you know really last
00:29:38.660 chance a helicopter comes
00:29:40.140 down and he's like nope
00:29:42.620 go away god's gonna save
00:29:44.780 me and then he dies in
00:29:46.120 the flood and goes to
00:29:46.820 heaven and he's at the
00:29:48.180 pearly gates and you know
00:29:50.260 he asked saint peter he
00:29:51.280 goes why didn't god save
00:29:52.900 me and he goes what the
00:29:53.980 fuck were the two boats
00:29:55.020 and a helicopter for
00:29:55.960 and you're french not
00:29:57.820 included in the original
00:29:58.740 sermon of course not
00:29:59.900 included no but i
00:30:00.960 actually think that this
00:30:01.860 is this is a thing to
00:30:04.040 spit on god's miracles to
00:30:06.100 think that you as a
00:30:07.860 human know what a
00:30:11.360 miracle from god is
00:30:13.180 supposed to look like and
00:30:15.100 then to turn down to
00:30:16.800 deny god's miracles from
00:30:18.980 you yeah on his plan for
00:30:20.940 your life which which is
00:30:22.580 to have a big happy
00:30:24.000 thriving family which he
00:30:25.160 has told you this and
00:30:26.280 you have turned down his
00:30:27.340 pathway it's like do you
00:30:29.280 think god is stupid do
00:30:31.240 you think he didn't know
00:30:32.580 that ibf wasn't going to
00:30:35.100 be invented do you think
00:30:36.360 that if he knew that ibf was
00:30:38.540 going to be invented he
00:30:39.840 wouldn't have worded
00:30:40.640 things differently in the
00:30:41.500 bible do you think that he
00:30:42.980 wouldn't have had people
00:30:44.320 like thomas aquinas that he
00:30:46.020 wouldn't have had people
00:30:46.860 like saint augustine say
00:30:48.340 different things about when
00:30:49.260 life begins it's almost as
00:30:51.700 if he very intentionally
00:30:53.340 worded things in a way
00:30:54.720 where it could be confused
00:30:56.600 into before ibf technology
00:30:59.300 being used to prevent the
00:31:01.540 wanton abortion and murder
00:31:03.000 of many you know later stage
00:31:05.000 fetuses okay but also once
00:31:08.240 the technology was invented be
00:31:10.000 revisited and then say ah
00:31:11.760 okay so this is what god
00:31:12.920 meant all along and it's just
00:31:14.920 like he's left so many
00:31:15.960 innumerable hints that that
00:31:17.800 was his intention it is
00:31:18.920 astounding and then to spit
00:31:21.300 on his miracle or to act
00:31:22.960 like he didn't expect ibf to
00:31:24.820 be invented or he didn't
00:31:25.800 know it was going to be
00:31:26.420 invented it just astounds
00:31:27.420 me but worse than that it's
00:31:29.380 worse than the guy from two
00:31:30.240 boats in a helicopter
00:31:30.820 because he's not just
00:31:31.440 spitting on god's miracles
00:31:32.320 for him he is like cursing
00:31:35.080 out the helicopter pilot and
00:31:36.800 trying to like pass an
00:31:37.900 amendment to prevent the
00:31:38.840 helicopter pilot from
00:31:39.760 rescuing anyone else
00:31:40.660 that is where yeah we kind of
00:31:43.360 draw a line here right is
00:31:44.480 that like it's one thing to
00:31:45.740 be like let's be cautious
00:31:47.220 let's not you know let's
00:31:49.000 not do anything imprudent
00:31:50.340 it's another thing to
00:31:51.600 impose that on other
00:31:52.620 people that can be
00:31:53.620 incredibly damaging
00:31:54.420 though I'm going to take
00:31:55.580 a moment to just give you
00:31:56.780 know a fair defense of the
00:31:59.360 catholic approach here which
00:32:00.560 is and I think our friend
00:32:01.720 pointed this out on the
00:32:02.400 call like there are some
00:32:04.160 you know amazing at the
00:32:05.580 time innovations that we
00:32:06.800 introduce that that are
00:32:07.920 quite helpful that can be
00:32:09.180 quite meaningful and then
00:32:10.520 they have unforeseen
00:32:11.520 consequences that can be
00:32:12.960 quite damaging and this is
00:32:14.500 where I do think you know
00:32:15.520 have approaching
00:32:16.420 technology with caution
00:32:17.640 and observance is
00:32:19.920 important and this is why
00:32:21.000 you know I think in the
00:32:21.640 end yes probably the
00:32:22.720 catholic church is going to
00:32:23.660 change their stance on
00:32:24.520 this and many other
00:32:25.520 religious organizations
00:32:26.440 probably will as well but
00:32:28.200 they're not crazy to say
00:32:29.520 hey let's let's wait until
00:32:30.720 let's see how this plays
00:32:31.880 out although I think we're
00:32:33.340 getting to the point where
00:32:34.260 you know IVF is is proving
00:32:36.400 to be pretty safe as a
00:32:39.000 bet pretty reliable yeah
00:32:40.400 so here now we've got to
00:32:42.260 talk about you know what
00:32:43.300 he said because like yeah
00:32:43.960 but ultimately you are
00:32:45.420 destroying the the embryos
00:32:48.360 which could if they were
00:32:50.020 implanted in somebody become
00:32:51.260 human lives right right
00:32:52.820 and this is where I'm like
00:32:54.960 yeah but come on like I
00:32:56.220 personally I really do not
00:32:57.980 think they believe they are
00:32:58.920 human lives I think they
00:32:59.760 use this for the sake of
00:33:00.540 argument but I think if you
00:33:02.060 said you can push a button
00:33:03.500 you can either destroy 10
00:33:05.160 embryos or kill a five-year-old
00:33:07.140 kid which button do you
00:33:08.780 press every time they're
00:33:10.780 going to destroy the embryos
00:33:11.860 even if you made the
00:33:13.160 button you know 25 embryos
00:33:16.140 50 embryos to save you know
00:33:18.080 a 10-year-old kid they're
00:33:19.600 going to press that button
00:33:20.400 because intuitive argument
00:33:21.640 is in favor of the idea of
00:33:23.040 potentiality and a five-year-old
00:33:24.720 kid obviously has more human
00:33:26.200 potentiality than an embryo
00:33:27.720 but the potentiality does
00:33:29.340 still matter I need to
00:33:31.160 remind the audience here
00:33:32.060 that us and Catholics are
00:33:33.780 arguing to try to find out
00:33:35.480 what's truth with the same
00:33:37.580 goal we are on the same
00:33:39.140 team meanwhile the
00:33:40.260 antinatalists come in here
00:33:41.840 and they're like they're
00:33:43.740 looking at this trolley
00:33:44.540 problem we've set up and
00:33:45.600 they're like multi-track
00:33:47.180 drifting
00:33:47.600 but yeah and and and this
00:33:52.220 is I I think one of those
00:33:54.020 things where when you look
00:33:54.960 at what they're saying it
00:33:56.020 just to me it doesn't pass
00:33:58.120 like a sanity test with
00:33:59.840 these embryos right like
00:34:01.220 yes if you allowed them to
00:34:02.720 develop past their current
00:34:04.460 stage every sperm that I
00:34:06.580 emit if I allowed it to
00:34:08.200 contact a human egg in some
00:34:09.740 way it could eventually
00:34:10.800 become a human being if I
00:34:12.380 take this perspective what I
00:34:13.840 should do is just ejaculate
00:34:15.340 one freeze it try to take
00:34:17.140 every single one of those
00:34:18.540 little sperms and put it
00:34:20.120 with one little egg it
00:34:21.800 reminds me of that legally
00:34:23.020 blonde scene where she's
00:34:24.500 like well shouldn't he be
00:34:25.340 responsible for every
00:34:26.320 emission although mr
00:34:27.900 Huntington makes an
00:34:28.720 excellent point I have to
00:34:30.680 wonder if the defendant kept
00:34:31.860 a thorough record of every
00:34:33.460 sperm emission made
00:34:34.460 throughout his life
00:34:35.340 interesting why do you ask
00:34:40.240 well unless the defendant
00:34:43.220 attempted to contact every
00:34:44.760 single one night stand to
00:34:46.000 determine if a child
00:34:46.920 resulted in those unions he
00:34:48.880 has no parental claim over
00:34:50.080 this child whatsoever why now
00:34:52.220 why this sperm
00:34:53.200 I see your point and for
00:34:57.260 that matter all masturbatory
00:34:59.620 emissions where his sperm was
00:35:00.680 clearly not seeking an egg
00:35:01.820 could be termed reckless
00:35:02.700 abandonment you are killing
00:35:04.580 it would be considered
00:35:06.480 reckless abandonment
00:35:07.700 whole humans yeah with
00:35:10.080 every emission if you take
00:35:11.840 this perspective because
00:35:12.860 every one of them has the
00:35:14.640 potential to become a full
00:35:15.980 human being although yeah we
00:35:17.320 will say many religious
00:35:18.120 conservatives have also been
00:35:20.040 very against any non-procreative
00:35:22.800 mission we'll do the Monty
00:35:23.400 Python scene here you see we
00:35:25.960 believe I'm a Roman Catholic and
00:35:30.720 have been since before our
00:35:32.260 bombers every sperm is sacred
00:35:37.960 every sperm is great if a sperm is
00:35:45.320 wasted God gets quite irate
00:35:50.560 every sperm is sacred every sperm
00:35:52.800 is great when a sperm is wasted
00:35:54.720 God becomes quite irate because
00:35:56.680 you know it is a logical thing
00:35:58.600 like this is a logical deduction
00:36:00.080 if you're taking this life
00:36:01.020 begins a conception approach
00:36:02.300 yes so like of course people
00:36:04.160 have come to it before but it's
00:36:05.760 also I don't know from my
00:36:07.360 perspective kind of silly because
00:36:08.800 I do believe you're choosing
00:36:09.820 between timelines with every
00:36:11.160 decision you make and erasing
00:36:12.360 children when you choose
00:36:13.600 that kid but why they are
00:36:22.460 replacements of people who had
00:36:23.660 their existence consumed by
00:36:25.780 denizens of the crimson world
00:36:27.220 now this is where it gets more
00:36:28.200 interesting to us so people would
00:36:29.640 be like do you think you are
00:36:31.360 killing humans if you don't end
00:36:32.980 up using all the embryos you
00:36:34.180 created right now we want to use
00:36:36.280 all the embryos we created we do
00:36:38.040 think that that is killing humans
00:36:39.300 but also when you take this
00:36:42.400 timeline splitting view killing
00:36:44.640 humans doesn't have quite the
00:36:46.280 same weight it does within other
00:36:48.140 views because you are also
00:36:50.460 responsible for everything that
00:36:52.240 happens with on the timeline
00:36:53.140 you're choosing let me explain
00:36:55.520 right so suppose I had like 50
00:37:00.160 kids I was just like okay well
00:37:01.460 then I have to maximize all the
00:37:02.980 kids I can have and I do
00:37:03.800 literally everything I can to
00:37:05.500 have as many kids as I have to
00:37:07.180 the extent where it lowers the
00:37:09.000 quality of life of my existing
00:37:10.460 kids and my ability to give
00:37:12.120 them a good childhood and my
00:37:13.500 ability to give them a culture
00:37:14.580 that they want to pass on in
00:37:15.580 the future and it leads to them
00:37:17.140 not having grandchildren or like
00:37:19.220 abusing their grandchildren in
00:37:20.420 some way so in the end you're
00:37:21.720 you're essentially killing
00:37:22.800 potential future generations
00:37:24.460 exactly every decision I make I'm
00:37:28.280 not just responsible for the one
00:37:30.620 person that creates or doesn't
00:37:32.160 create I'm responsible for all of
00:37:34.440 the ripple effects of that
00:37:35.660 decision yes centuries into
00:37:37.780 humanity's future yes I do not get
00:37:40.620 out every decision I make all of
00:37:44.220 the future rests on that
00:37:45.320 decision and everything that
00:37:46.840 could happen rests on that
00:37:47.800 decision and I am fully
00:37:49.500 responsible for all of that but
00:37:52.160 this is true not just for
00:37:54.340 creating an embryo this is true
00:37:55.560 of getting out of the bed in the
00:37:56.440 morning like people often you
00:37:58.200 know like in terms of our
00:37:59.100 personal productivity I think one
00:38:00.760 thing that really helps us it's
00:38:01.780 just getting out of bed in the
00:38:02.640 morning some people wake up when
00:38:04.080 the alarm goes off and they're
00:38:05.320 like oh I could go back to
00:38:06.260 sleep I'm literally thinking how
00:38:07.540 many hundreds of thousands of
00:38:09.660 humans are going to die because I
00:38:11.480 go back to sleep yeah right if I do
00:38:14.520 not perform the function I was
00:38:16.680 born to perform how many hundreds
00:38:19.660 of thousands of people die for
00:38:21.340 every moment of indolence and of
00:38:23.080 course being a human I will sin to
00:38:26.220 be a human who thinks that you will
00:38:27.920 not sin is to be extremely
00:38:30.620 susceptible to sin but you know
00:38:34.840 whether it's drinking or whether
00:38:36.060 it's the few days where I do fall
00:38:37.900 back asleep because I'm just
00:38:38.900 feeling that tired but I am
00:38:41.360 responsible for all of the souls
00:38:43.340 that bear the burden of my sin and
00:38:47.600 that number is innumerable and
00:38:50.600 therefore with every decision I
00:38:53.100 make it needs to bear an enormous
00:38:55.920 amount of conscious thought from my
00:38:58.500 perspective and I really cannot be
00:39:01.120 flippant with this stuff and so you
00:39:05.400 know all of this is really
00:39:06.120 interesting to me because I think it's
00:39:07.820 really an answer are you technically
00:39:09.480 killing a human or are you
00:39:10.640 functionally killing a human right I
00:39:12.740 understand the technical like
00:39:14.260 legalistic argument that you are
00:39:15.960 killing a human if you do not use an
00:39:17.960 embryo or you destroy an embryo yeah
00:39:20.100 but functionally through not doing that
00:39:22.620 a little 10 year old boy doesn't come
00:39:24.860 into this world or a little 10 year old
00:39:26.620 girl who is cute and says mama dad I
00:39:28.980 love you Emily what's wrong I'm the
00:39:32.180 last kid to be born what if by that
00:39:34.460 time mom and dad don't want me no way
00:39:37.020 but I've seen lots of families make
00:39:38.860 promises and then break them not us
00:39:42.400 Emily I will see to it personally that
00:39:46.580 you're not forgotten you promised to
00:39:48.460 me promise and this is something that
00:39:50.340 we bear every day because we Simone
00:39:54.700 could not get pregnant naturally yeah
00:39:56.700 so every one of our kids who I
00:39:59.500 interact with every day every time
00:40:01.300 they say data I love you they give me
00:40:03.680 this big hug they would not exist in
00:40:07.240 this world if I took this other
00:40:11.680 interpretation or if somebody convinced
00:40:13.720 me of this other interpretation I would
00:40:15.220 have erased them from the human timeline
00:40:18.700 that kid yeah very very obviously
00:40:29.960 immoral in equivalent to killing them
00:40:32.620 and and everything else is just fudging
00:40:35.920 the numbers to get out of the moral
00:40:37.700 weight of the action that you have
00:40:40.100 undertaken and I understand that many
00:40:41.800 people have taken that action in the
00:40:42.880 same way that many people have had an
00:40:43.980 abortion and killed a human being and
00:40:45.760 like I don't want to like really rub it in
00:40:47.400 for them you know you killed a human in
00:40:48.940 the same way I don't want to rub it into
00:40:50.020 people who didn't use IVF when they
00:40:51.100 could have you killed a human or a lot
00:40:53.060 of humans but I I think that it is
00:40:56.380 worth understanding our perspective on
00:40:58.480 this and our larger perspective is is
00:41:00.440 like we can evangelize our perspective
00:41:02.280 towards Catholics but I do not think that
00:41:04.320 any cultural group our cultural group for
00:41:05.980 example should ever use a legal system
00:41:08.100 to try to enforce another cultural group
00:41:10.360 to live by their values I believe that
00:41:14.180 that is one of the ways that God shows
00:41:16.460 what's true and what's not true is which
00:41:18.920 groups proliferate and which groups
00:41:20.660 don't proliferate and if I tip the scale
00:41:23.800 there then I have acted sinfully and
00:41:26.800 arrogantly to think that I understand
00:41:29.120 God's plan and God's miracles more than
00:41:32.160 he intended them to unfold it's a very
00:41:34.580 interesting question for us and I guess
00:41:36.260 the things that really shocked me when I
00:41:37.680 went into this was one I didn't know the
00:41:39.200 position of the early church on this
00:41:40.680 two I like I didn't realize how recently
00:41:43.260 the Catholic church had made a switch on
00:41:45.280 this issue I think a lot of Americans so I
00:41:47.060 did know how recently regular Protestants
00:41:49.340 had made a switch on this issue this was
00:41:50.720 seen as like a weird Catholic thing like
00:41:52.520 my granddad who was a conservative
00:41:53.700 congressman he even told me when I was
00:41:55.020 growing up he was like yeah it was really
00:41:56.100 weird because he was there during the
00:41:57.640 70s when this switch happened and he was
00:41:59.520 like it was considered like a weird
00:42:01.300 Catholic thing for my early political
00:42:03.940 career and then it became like a
00:42:05.280 mainstream conservative thing well and
00:42:06.920 around that time it's a weird Catholic
00:42:09.080 thing that had only been around for
00:42:11.120 about a hundred years yeah which in the
00:42:14.620 larger scheme of the church is not that
00:42:17.140 much time in the end yeah and it was a
00:42:19.620 good thing I'm saying it was a good
00:42:20.900 thing when it happened and I'm glad yeah
00:42:22.500 like here's another example of one of
00:42:24.340 those things like a technology that can
00:42:26.500 be very very good and life-saving at the
00:42:28.180 time and then has to be dropped you
00:42:30.300 because it starts killing people can you
00:42:31.500 guess what it is what is it asbestos
00:42:34.840 so keep in mind at the time when
00:42:38.220 everything was made out of wood
00:42:39.560 untreated thousands and thousands of
00:42:43.420 people died in fires all the time
00:42:45.400 because there was you know things would
00:42:48.040 just suddenly become engulfed in flames
00:42:50.060 people wouldn't have time to escape
00:42:51.260 people died and asbestos saved so many
00:42:54.740 lives because it slowed the rate of
00:42:57.000 burning of cities of houses you know
00:42:59.800 asbestos roofs all this asbestos in
00:43:01.940 buildings was truly life-saving
00:43:04.100 asbestos has been banned in in some
00:43:07.940 part of the world but for here in
00:43:11.760 Quebec we're telling that you should
00:43:14.600 use more asbestos really and then you
00:43:19.840 know we got to the point where we had
00:43:20.920 other fire returning chemicals and
00:43:22.340 materials and we reached a point at
00:43:24.040 which asbestos no longer made sense we
00:43:27.180 didn't need it anymore and so we have to
00:43:29.000 get rid of it and carefully remove it
00:43:30.380 from buildings because it is you know we
00:43:32.140 know how longer lifespans and how the
00:43:33.900 asbestos is going to get to us but the
00:43:35.800 point is that there can be a time when
00:43:38.080 something saves lives and is very very
00:43:40.100 good and then that same thing later on in
00:43:43.300 in the presence of other technologies and
00:43:45.160 understandings needs to be removed we
00:43:47.560 have to change that doesn't mean that
00:43:49.240 asbestos was always bad and always evil
00:43:51.680 it means that there's a time and a place
00:43:53.360 for things and I think that's where we
00:43:55.160 are with the Catholic Church and when
00:43:56.860 life begins right yeah well and I and I
00:43:59.160 would say that you know was this like
00:44:00.860 just a quick summary like God is not an
00:44:04.160 idiot okay God did not say once in the
00:44:07.500 Bible that life begins at conception
00:44:08.720 yet he said multiple times it begins
00:44:10.820 before conception yeah okay he has
00:44:13.620 multiple times within the Bible said
00:44:15.660 that baby's lives matter because he
00:44:17.680 thinks abortion is wrong and we think
00:44:18.780 abortion is wrong you know after a
00:44:20.220 certain period right but he he also like
00:44:23.100 he'll say like oh the baby jumped for joy
00:44:24.680 within the womb right like at a certain
00:44:26.400 trimester or something it's like great
00:44:27.580 you know we agree with that if you kill
00:44:30.280 a woman who's like heavily pregnant you
00:44:31.940 have killed two people you have not
00:44:33.400 killed one person because that person
00:44:34.780 would have come to existence they had
00:44:35.820 high potentiality right but if you
00:44:38.760 convince somebody to not have a kid you
00:44:41.620 have also killed somebody right so so
00:44:43.720 and God coded our biology he could have
00:44:46.420 made it so identical twins didn't exist
00:44:47.860 he could have made it so human chimeras
00:44:49.640 didn't exist and yet he coded that into
00:44:52.320 our biology the things do not happen by
00:44:55.840 accident I think if you look at God's
00:44:58.640 plan whether it's the Bible or human
00:45:00.220 biology or even the original arguments
00:45:02.800 like Aristotle and stuff like that he has
00:45:05.040 made his will imminently clear and I
00:45:08.820 really am looking forward to the day
00:45:11.300 when and again I again no animosity
00:45:13.720 towards Catholics this is just something
00:45:14.780 that we have like a really strong
00:45:16.240 difference of perception on but I I hope
00:45:19.460 and I genuinely believe that the
00:45:21.320 Catholic Church is going to change its
00:45:23.060 perception on this which will lead to
00:45:25.700 innumerably more humans come who are
00:45:28.840 waiting to come into existence coming
00:45:30.900 into existence fingers crossed
00:45:33.080 bonds and joy well-haha
00:45:34.840 okay
00:45:44.820 okay
00:45:47.040 now
00:45:48.540 how