Why Did Men Waste Time Being Gentlemen？
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode, I sit down with author and author Simone Simone Tate to talk about her new book, "Manners and Masculinity: How To Be Dominant in the 21st Century." Simone and I talk about how society has evolved over the past century, and why it's important to be assertive and assertive in our relationships.
Transcript
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I think that's one reason why men are misunderstanding what it looks like to be dominant and then
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ending up just kind of acting like trailer trash when they try to be dominant, you know,
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Every cultural group has different, more refined ways to handle these dominant fights that don't
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involve two males making themselves look big and then like physically attacking each other
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She mentally is associating this with lower socioeconomic groups because lower socioeconomic
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groups, like anyone who's resource scarce, are going to have less luxury of the ability
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And often their families have been in this situation for multiple generations.
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So they might have lost even the cultural software for how do I handle a dominance fight with
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another male other than puffing myself up and then beating him up?
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I think we've lost, we've lost a lot of the ways that people historically demonstrated dominance
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in, this sounds terrible, this sounds really classist, but in a civilized fashion.
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It is so wonderful to have you back from a business trip.
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So something happened recently that was really telling for me because, you know, I see this
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was in some conservative communities and it's something that I'm getting really worried about,
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which is somebody who's like, why do you put your wife's name first when you write books
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You know, don't you know that you're the man and that that means you're better than her?
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And so you should be putting all of your stuff first.
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And I think this shows how far we've descended from most traditional cultural beliefs, which
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is if you look at manners books, that's just polite manners.
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Like opening the door for a woman, like all of these nice little things that guys used
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And then progressive culture came like a glacier and cleaned all of those things clean, so clean
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that we don't remember them almost, you know, with Gen Z's coming around and they're trying
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But in so doing, in so reclaiming this masculine role, they, you know, through people like the
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way that this has been portrayed by individuals like Andrew Tate, it almost comes across as
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every interaction you have with a woman who like you love and have a long-term relationship
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with is, is to some extent to exert your dominance over that woman.
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Whereas most of the traditional cultures in the world will say, no, no, no, no, no.
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It's to make her feel special and treasured and to protect her.
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Now, this actually has very big effects if you're talking about long-term fertility of a culture.
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So why do you do, like, why, it's not just to be nice.
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Like, I'm not just, you know, within my family's life, putting my wife upon a pedestal to be
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I'm not doing all of these things that we traditionally call manners, like ensuring that I walk on
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the side of the street where a car is going to splash us, it splashes me first, opening
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doors, all of these little things like that, standing up from a table when she gets up.
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No, I mean, I don't do all of those things just to be like a weirdo.
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It's so that when my daughters see the way I treat my wife, they desire that outcome for
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And when my sons see the way I treat my wife, they treat their own wives that way.
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And then their own daughters think, oh, being a wife is awesome.
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And so someone, I wonder, you had talked to me before about what you've felt like growing
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So I thought growing up when I was young just meant, you know, giving a bunch of things
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up, like giving up your career and then having to take on a whole bunch of additional
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So just basically meant more work, but, you know, not really being celebrated.
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Not that my father wasn't absolutely amazing to my mother.
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He was, but there was no like elevated status in, in Silicon Valley, like in the very progressive
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I remember the first time I saw someone stand up when a woman got up at a table.
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And when the first time I saw a man, like a ceremonially open a door for a woman, I was
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Well, so you've been around my family, like you've been around my cousin.
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And they're like, yeah, they're, they're very, yeah, they're, they're raised like Southern
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But yeah, so there was definitely, I mean, like I had zero incentive to, to, to not only
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have kids, but get married at all because why, I mean, it just basically meant that you
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were technically more entangled with a friend that was supposed to make you happy for the
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rest of your life, which isn't really what, you know, we found marriage to be about and
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But I think what's more interesting about this is that a lot of these men's rights activists
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are sort of like manosphere figures that are complaining about your behavior online or
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missing is, is they think that like showing deference to women is, I don't know, suggesting
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that they are in a position of power or yielding power to them.
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And I think it, there's something more interesting at play in American culture there where, where
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shows of, of power or shows of politeness are no longer seen as shows of power where
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So in, in the book, Albion Seed by David Hackett Fitcher, he talks about, especially in the South
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where the cavaliers first migrated to the American colonies, there was the concept of condescension
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was very different from what it is in a modern America.
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Do you remember this part where he, he was basically talking about-
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So, well, no, condescension was essentially like noblesse oblige.
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So when you condescended to someone, you, through your more informed or your more powerful,
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more educated, more, you know, whatever, from a position of power, you were showing kindness
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to someone who hierarchically, powerfully, whatever was below you.
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So condescension was like benevolent paternalism.
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And I feel like part of what has happened in, in American culture is that there's a lot
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of status anxiety or like, like around even acknowledgement of differences.
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So I think something that the manosphere accurately points out is that as a man, when you show emotional
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weakness or you defer to a woman in your life consistently, for many women within our current
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cultural context, they will permanently look less upon you.
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They will, you know, like you've talked about this.
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Some people are like, oh yeah, you know, open up to your wife, you know, have a cry, show
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And you've been like, actually, this can permanently damage your relationship with somebody, even if
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, because especially because if someone like if they're, I mean, using our
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terminology, if they're lore in your relationship, the thing that they use to attract you and
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And the thing of value that I provide to you is to feel like you're always surrounded by
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Of course, it's going to break the entire selling point when that person suddenly becomes
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vulnerable and where you, the other partner, find yourself in a position where you feel
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like you need to be the powerful one, which, you know, many people just don't want to do
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And so I think that they do recognize this aspect where.
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And there's something there, but there it's so there's a big difference between vulnerability
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and and showing like, I don't know, putting someone on a pedestal or like groveling at
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their feet and showing a polite deference to to someone.
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Well, I'll divide this because I think you're capturing something really true, but I called
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the way I treat you in our family pedestalization, which is to an extent, but it's a bit of a wrong
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word because I think when we think of pedestalization within the manosphere, what we're thinking of is
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the way that we sometimes pedestalize a woman who we have a crush on or something like that.
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And we begin to think too much of them or treat them with too much deference, you know,
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before relationships start, when I first started dating you, I treated you not this way as
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No, but you know, when I realized and when it was very clear that our relationship was long
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term and I began to integrate with you identity wise, it became very important when I thought
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about the image I am portraying to my daughters around what a marriage means.
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And so this sort of divides things into three broad categories.
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One is the behavior pattern where you as a guy are sublimating yourselves to a wise desires
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This is a submissive position, which can, if it is not what a woman wants, hurt her perception
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Even if you were just trying to make her happy.
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Then there's the secondary position, which is to say, okay, I am going to constantly show
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my dominance to the women in my life, constantly build frame in which I am this hotshot and
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Um, and one thing that I would always say, and, and this is, this is something I'd so
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want to, like, I actually think Andrew Tate has some good points.
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I think he has some interesting things, but I think the, the one thing I would frame or
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my biggest disagreement from him is weak women make weak sons.
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And if you have a whole attraction strategy, if you have a whole life strategy for how you
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are treating your wife that consistently disempowers her, you are making a weak mother and weak
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mothers genetically and socially will lead to weak daughters and weak sons, which permanently
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Well, and furthermore, treating a mother, any mother figure or woman in a relationship like
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trash, isn't going to inspire daughters to be really excited to enter those relationships
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But then your son's daughters will not be okay.
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So anyway, but then there's this other category.
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So I've, I've talked about this dichotomy of categories of, of, of male to female treatment.
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Then there's this other category of treatment, which used to be the gentleman.
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And it's funny in historic society, like when, when, when these manners came up, it's almost
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like they didn't conceive that there might be a world in which women lorded over men.
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They were just like, how do you not lord over your wife too much?
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And so this, this whole new category of behavior is like a new thing that nobody really knew
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So it wasn't really considered when all these rules were created, but a lot of it means that
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you have to be there to protect your wife and your wife's emotional state to somewhat
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You just came back from a business trip, making our family money.
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And I, I know that you don't care about flowers or stuff like that, but you really care about
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So, I mean, it's a point of having the car detail when you got back and having the house
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look really pristine when you get back because early in our relationship, which you would
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leave the house would just fall to hell when she left all the dishes would pile up,
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Now, she didn't then go to me and say, Hey, Malcolm, never do this again.
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But she knew because of the, the priors I had set in our relationship that when I had obviously
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emotionally hurt her or put her in a bad emotional state that I had shown in the future, I don't
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So in the future, I went out of my way to try to prevent those states.
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And that showed how much I cared about her while also showing, I think, you know, if I had
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kids who were more cognizant in the house right now, that dad's really thinking about how mom
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feels and he's trying to make her feel special, particularly when she puts herself out from
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But yeah, I think there's something else that has been lost that men are missing out on.
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And, and it's again, like it comes back to class.
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Like I was saying earlier, a lot of the discomfort, I think, or a lot of where this got lost was
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this, this sort of loss of comfort with there being class differentiation, or frankly, in
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any differentiation, gender differentiation, anything like that.
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So like men opening doors for women, people acknowledging that there are different social
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classes, like it just makes people super uncomfortable.
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And we all pretend that it's not real, even though we all know that it's there and we
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And, and if, I think that's one reason why men are misunderstanding what it looks like to
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be dominant and then ending up just kind of acting like trailer trash when they try to
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be dominant, you know, it's just, you know, they, they think.
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And, and, and this is because when an individual is resource scarce.
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Oh God, this is going to sound so bad, no matter how I say it.
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Let's not see what an individual is resource scarce.
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When an individual is under a lot of emotional stress, their inhibitory pathways don't function
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You know, if you had like a full civilizational construct around an individual and they begin
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reacting in a way that is very animalistic, it's, it's, it's their base impulses.
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And so when they are asserting dominance, you know, it's what you think you're better
00:14:53.960
Well, what is a person saying when they're saying that they're really saying, do you think
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you're of a higher dominance position than me in this local hierarchy that we've created?
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How dare you think you are dominant in, in comparison to me?
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And when they do that, Oh, you think about, you know, they're puffing themselves up like
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an animal trying to get in like a gorilla and another gorilla, like in a dominance fight.
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However, every cultural group has different, more refined ways to handle these dominant
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fights that don't involve two males making themselves look big and then like physically
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If you have to solve every dominance fight was like actual physical violence, their actual
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you know, and this is what Simone means when she says she mentally is associating with this,
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this was, was like lower socioeconomic groups because lower socioeconomic groups, like anyone
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who's resource scarce is, is, are going to have the less luxury of the ability to suppress
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And often their families have been in this situation for multiple generations.
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So they might have lost even the cultural software for how do I handle a dominance fight with
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another male other than puffing myself up and then beating him up.
00:16:12.340
I think we've lost, we've lost a lot of the ways that people historically demonstrated dominance
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in, this sounds terrible, it's really classist, but in a, in a civilized fashion.
00:16:24.420
So anyone who's read the original, like Peter Pan by J.M.
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Berry will recall that the, the constant fight between Peter Pan and Captain Hook was actually
00:16:35.320
And both of them were like pretty obsessed with good form, good form.
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And it wasn't, it wasn't about who won the fight.
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I mean, they, they both really cared about the fight, the art of the fight, and also like
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And I think that there's something about traditional successful masculinity that involves good form,
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not just like successful showing of dominance or violence or disregarding another party.
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It involves fighting right, fighting fair and fighting clean.
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Well, I'm going to find whoever said it from our listeners.
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They'll be like, oh, I know who said this quote.
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So the quote is something like a, a true gentleman is defined by an individual who knows how to
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And what that means is that actually part of, at least in the Victorian period, being part of
00:17:32.280
this upper class society was about starting specific quarrels with individuals, but also
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all of the rules for how these quarrels worked, right?
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You could be one of these guff people who has seen, what's an example of somebody who is like
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He'd be like, okay, going to a duel, directly to a duel.
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And that would have been seen within the period.
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And it was seen within the political advertisements is like a very low class way of handling these
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disagreements, whereas within these, and again, sorry, we're talking about class so much here.
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And I really need to be clear what I mean by this in a historic context.
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Every cultural group had its own complicated set of rules for disagreeing with another individual
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But those broke down and would become more and more the pre-evolved set of rules, which
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previously I referred to as animalistic, but it's really humanistic.
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It's really the way humans act if they lived on a desert island and were never exposed to
00:18:41.200
Like we're talking about the presence or evidence or trappings of culture, AKA civilization.
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Like the presence of a set of values of traditions of, of basically pro-social per that culture
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or religion, um, uh, civilizational technologies or the absence of them.
00:19:02.900
And the problem is what we're discussing is, is that there's, there's basically an absence
00:19:06.320
of civilizational, cultural, religious, whatever you want to call it, technologies in male
00:19:11.760
dominance, especially as demonstrated to women.
00:19:14.700
Well, yeah, but you, you can, I mean, there's other ways around this.
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So when I was in high school, you know, one of the things I always told you about the,
00:19:20.820
the fights, I got in a lot of fights in detention and stuff like this.
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And I realized pretty early, there was a specific strategy I would use in my fight.
00:19:28.660
So I would physically often lose the fights individuals.
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Like I knew how to fight, but I couldn't ensure that I would always win a fight.
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However, what I could ensure, and I always went into fights with this strategy is always
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give my opponent a bloody nose or a black eye because after the fight, even if they physically
00:19:57.040
I have more long-term damage to my body because of that fight.
00:20:01.020
They walk out and they go to a group and the public sees the two of us and they did damage
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I have a few bruises that are easy to cover up, but they have a black eye for the rest
00:20:12.640
of the week, or they're walking out of that fight with a bloody nose.
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People perceive the public perception is they lost the fight.
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And what they misunderstood going into that fight is they thought the purpose of that fight,
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even from an animalistic, you know, middle school, high school context was to hurt me.
00:20:32.180
The actual purpose of the fight was to determine our positions in the local hierarchy of our
00:20:41.200
Actually funny, but most people, our listeners might be surprised that I always was really
00:20:45.680
obsessed with protecting any group that I thought was disenfranchised was in my current
00:20:51.020
So most of the fights I would get into were protecting gay people because I would, so this
00:20:56.280
might seem really weird to a Gen Z audience today, but when I grew up, you know, me standing
00:21:03.620
up to people who were using derogatory terms that I can't even say on YouTube now towards
00:21:09.940
gay kids at my school to protect them was something that would cause them to fight me.
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I mean, let's talk about why it caused them to fight me, because this is actually really
00:21:19.420
So when you're talking about like how human social hierarchies work, when, when, when one
00:21:25.060
group of people is like making fun of another individual, if I come and I stand up for that
00:21:32.940
You guys, I have actually asserted myself even was in their dominance hierarchy as head, like
00:21:38.380
above the highest person was in their dominance hierarchy.
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And if they capitulate to that, if they walk away, they have lost status within their local
00:21:48.500
dominance hierarchy and was in the global dominance hierarchy of the school.
00:21:51.640
So they're almost sort of like trapped, like they, they can't avoid, and we'll do another
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episode on, on bullying because this people not understanding how like high school dominance
00:22:00.140
hierarchies work, it causes a lot of bullying, but they're trapped.
00:22:03.020
You know, they actually have to fight me to, to show that, that they haven't lost face,
00:22:09.500
but if they then come out of that fight with physical damage and black eyes were the thing
00:22:13.260
I always really aim for because those last for about a week.
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And so, you know, they can then tell people, Oh, I beat up Malcolm, but they have a black
00:22:20.740
eye and I look fine on the other side of the classroom.
00:22:26.000
And, and this is where all of this comes down to is so much of the ways that we act and
00:22:32.460
posture are about changing our dominance positions vis-a-vis other people was in our
00:22:38.900
But we forget how those around us are judging that and how those within our own family are
00:22:46.000
And this is where, when we're talking about the way a man treats a woman in a long-term
00:22:49.420
relationship, why it's very important to like intentionally build a culture for your
00:22:54.860
I don't think you ever feel that I am like putting myself in a submissive position to you
00:23:01.160
when I am going out of my way to make you feel good about yourself.
00:23:04.860
Do you, or like, how is it that I have prevented that framing?
00:23:10.640
Yeah, I think, I think it, a lot of it depends on contextualization.
00:23:15.460
So when condescending to a woman or when showing deference to a woman comes from a position of
00:23:22.920
power, then you're, you're asserting dominance essentially.
00:23:26.480
So when, you know, think about all the scenarios of like traditional gentlemen, you know, a traditional
00:23:31.580
gentleman, paying for a meal, paying for a meal that comes from a position of power.
00:23:37.540
If a, if a, if, you know, there's two different ways you can end up paying for a meal.
00:23:45.580
The other one is Southern gentleman style where everyone's fighting to pay for the meal.
00:23:49.580
You know, happens whenever we're visiting my family because the person who pays for the
00:23:53.440
meal has shown their higher social status than the other people in the community.
00:23:58.140
But yeah, so I would say, yeah, opening doors, the, the, the very classic example that freaks
00:24:06.140
So the woman doesn't, you know, step in the mud puddle.
00:24:09.180
Well, a man who does that has to be in so much of a position of power.
00:24:12.660
They can have people to clean his coat for him or several coats that he can change into.
00:24:16.640
So a lot of these gallant moves actually are dominance displays.
00:24:20.880
It's just, I think people have forgotten the context of them.
00:24:23.860
Whereas when instead it comes from a position of weakness, oh, I'm afraid.
00:24:28.140
And because my female partner is unhappy, I need to go make her happy.
00:24:33.420
Or I'm afraid because my female partner is going to get angry at me.
00:24:37.300
If I don't appease her, then it, you know, comes from the completely wrong position.
00:24:41.860
And it shows a lot of submission on the male part.
00:24:45.860
Like you were saying earlier, one of the things that you do is anticipate my needs.
00:24:52.360
You are anticipating my needs and acting ahead of me acting as though I need something or
00:24:59.040
So if it's anticipatory and if it's a, if it's a display of having either more emotional
00:25:04.740
control, more resources, more strength, all those sorts of things, you know, like lifting
00:25:10.300
And when you always put, you know, my suitcase in the overhead bin, you always handle our
00:25:14.300
Like that is, that is a, that's a dominance display.
00:25:22.820
And I actually think that this is an important thing was in relationships, right?
00:25:26.260
When you are dating a woman, as a guy today, I would say, you get a chance to see how she
00:25:36.860
I guess I would call it if she perceives it as a weakness, right?
00:25:42.680
And I think you can tell pretty quickly, does she, does she think that she's the one scored
00:25:47.180
a point on you by you being gentlemanly to her?
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There is no way that that relationship ends happily unless you just go like full Tate and
00:25:58.720
you basically dominate her and treat her like a house slave, right?
00:26:02.820
But if she has the acculturation and the upbringing, which many women, so the great thing is you
00:26:09.580
might be like women these days, no women these days, especially if we're talking Gen Z from
00:26:17.100
A lot of them have the class, regardless of their economic status, to see that politeness
00:26:26.740
Because it's many of these more traditional families that are having these large families
00:26:30.100
and women in these families are raised to recognize these things.
00:26:33.900
If you are dating women who don't recognize that when you are opening the door for them,
00:26:39.760
that it is not because you are beneath them, right?
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If a woman thinks that, then she's trash, right?
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One is I feel like the key differentiating factor between submissive male action that's
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deferential towards women and dominant male action that's deferential towards women is
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Second, I kind of feel like proactive male dominance displays and deference of women are
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So if you as a man take a proactive dominance display, you pay for the meal, you open the door
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and the your date, your female date, like sniffs at that or doesn't appreciate it.
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Like she needs to be shown right away that it's super not cool that she did that.
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And if she doesn't change, then she's not a good match.
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But it's one of those things where you point out in the practice guide to relationships,
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how if you don't immediately draw lines with partners and explain this reaction is totally
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You know, if we keep doing this, like we are not a we, then, you know, nothing's going to
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And it comes, you know, when you talk about paying for meals, I think that's almost the
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Whenever I would date women on the first date, I would usually, unless I took them to an
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unusually expensive restaurant, like I did with you on the first date, I would usually
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But even when I take them to an expensive restaurant, like when I took you to an expensive restaurant
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and I would pay for it, if you hadn't thought to pay for it, I would have treated that as
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And you didn't, but you're like, no, no, no, you know, I have to do this.
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I took you to a more expensive restaurant than you would have gone to.
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You know, so we're, we're, I'm the first restaurant I took her to.
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Um, she goes, oh, I don't drink and I don't eat meat.
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And I was like, well, you know, what I say, like, that's not happening if you're dating
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And so she goes, okay, I guess I'm eating meat and drinking, but you know, I, I, I put
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her in that position, but she still fought back against me paying for it.
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So I knew that she had a level of gratitude for me doing that.
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And I think that this is an area where we begin to see a corruption of the gentleman values
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that can happen after a few generations of a culture.
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And we need to really work to make sure it never happens, especially with our daughters
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is just because they know a man is, can show their dominance through paying for something.
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I mean, at least in media, I don't know if this happens in practice.
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It's, it's implied that a lot of women are like, oh, it's a free meal.
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Cause it's a free dinner and I don't feel like paying for dinner, but I want to go
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Instead of he is showing his, his upbringing through how he's treating me and his level
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And I do think the other thing that you said there is the anticipatory aspect of being
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a gentleman when you're in a really like long-term relationship with somebody, you're one of
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the core things that you're supposed to do as a partner.
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And you do this for me all the time as well, is you try to understand them the best you
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So, you know, the things that are necessary, the things that are harder for them than for
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you and, and the, the things you could do to make them feel special and that you aren't
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doing those things just on days where you're trying to make them special.
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But that is a natural part of every interaction you have with them.
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And I think that that is, is the key, but that they never lose their gratitude for that.
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And as I've said over and over again, when you're choosing who you marry, the single most
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I think the second to the most important thing is work ethic.
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Work ethic is a very important, but it's how much gratitude they are capable of showing
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because some people in our society have just been trained out of showing gratitude.
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You know, if you were to embody, you know, we were talking about Andrew Tate earlier, like
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I genuinely don't know if he's capable of feeling gratitude for the things the woman in
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And that would lead to a really like not great long-term relationship.
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Like, I think he's smart about a lot of things.
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It may just be the way he's showing himself to the public.
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That's like biteable, like hookable for young guys, but the ability of both yourself and
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a partner to show and genuinely feel gratitude when the other person anticipates their needs
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And no matter how perfect a partner is for you, if they are unable to feel gratitude when
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you go out of your way to be nice with them, so they can be the hottest, smartest, richest
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If they don't feel gratitude when you go out of your way for them, the relationship won't
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But a breakup of a relationship, especially the longer the relationship is, the more you
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suffer, you know, either because they get some of your kids who do then get raised in
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an environment where they're like poisoned against you or all of the other terrible aspects.
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I think what we're going to focus in on more with our kids and teaching them like inter, inter-gender
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relations, is a heavy emphasis on good form, proactive, anticipatory, kind action on both
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It doesn't matter what gender you are, what role you're playing, whatever.
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And then looking for gratitude from that partner when you show that action.
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And if you don't see it, either show that that's super not okay and see if they change
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And I hope that our daughters can see that and that they grow up believing and that our
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sons grow up understanding how a woman should be treated within our cultural group so that
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their own daughters are really excited to become wives and mothers.
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I think there's no way they're not going to see it.