Based Camp - Why Did Men Waste Time Being Gentlemen？

00:00:00.000 I think that's one reason why men are misunderstanding what it looks like to be dominant and then 0.93

00:00:04.980 ending up just kind of acting like trailer trash when they try to be dominant, you know, 1.00

00:00:09.160 it's just, you know, they-

00:00:09.980 Oh my gosh, I love-

00:00:12.140 No, it's true what you're saying, right?

00:00:14.180 Every cultural group has different, more refined ways to handle these dominant fights that don't

00:00:21.540 involve two males making themselves look big and then like physically attacking each other

00:00:25.620 because that's really costly.

00:00:27.940 And this is what Simone means.

00:00:29.440 She mentally is associating this with lower socioeconomic groups because lower socioeconomic 0.98

00:00:37.020 groups, like anyone who's resource scarce, are going to have less luxury of the ability

00:00:43.520 to suppress these things.

00:00:45.180 And often their families have been in this situation for multiple generations.

00:00:48.400 So they might have lost even the cultural software for how do I handle a dominance fight with 0.68

00:00:55.340 another male other than puffing myself up and then beating him up?

00:00:59.620 I think we've lost, we've lost a lot of the ways that people historically demonstrated dominance

00:01:06.180 in, this sounds terrible, this sounds really classist, but in a civilized fashion.

00:01:11.900 Would you like to know more?

00:01:14.520 Mm-hmm.

00:01:14.920 Hello, Simone. 0.69

00:01:18.900 Hello, Malcolm.

00:01:20.020 How are you doing?

00:01:22.120 Absolutely spectacular today.

00:01:25.000 It is so wonderful to have you back from a business trip.

00:01:28.120 So something happened recently that was really telling for me because, you know, I see this

00:01:33.940 was in some conservative communities and it's something that I'm getting really worried about,

00:01:37.480 which is somebody who's like, why do you put your wife's name first when you write books

00:01:44.060 and in correspondence?

00:01:45.760 You know, don't you know that you're the man and that that means you're better than her?

00:01:50.700 And so you should be putting all of your stuff first.

00:01:54.480 And I think this shows how far we've descended from most traditional cultural beliefs, which

00:02:00.680 is if you look at manners books, that's just polite manners.

00:02:04.900 Like opening the door for a woman, like all of these nice little things that guys used

00:02:12.040 to be expected to do for women. 0.94

00:02:14.400 And then progressive culture came like a glacier and cleaned all of those things clean, so clean

00:02:21.780 that we don't remember them almost, you know, with Gen Z's coming around and they're trying 1.00

00:02:26.020 to reclaim their masculinity.

00:02:27.380 But in so doing, in so reclaiming this masculine role, they, you know, through people like the

00:02:37.920 way that this has been portrayed by individuals like Andrew Tate, it almost comes across as

00:02:42.580 every interaction you have with a woman who like you love and have a long-term relationship

00:02:47.060 with is, is to some extent to exert your dominance over that woman.

00:02:52.200 Whereas most of the traditional cultures in the world will say, no, no, no, no, no.

00:02:56.680 It's to make her feel special and treasured and to protect her.

00:03:01.520 Now, this actually has very big effects if you're talking about long-term fertility of a culture.

00:03:08.320 So why do you do, like, why, it's not just to be nice.

00:03:14.280 Like, I'm not just, you know, within my family's life, putting my wife upon a pedestal to be

00:03:19.840 nice to her.

00:03:20.920 I'm not doing all of these things that we traditionally call manners, like ensuring that I walk on

00:03:25.760 the side of the street where a car is going to splash us, it splashes me first, opening

00:03:30.440 doors, all of these little things like that, standing up from a table when she gets up.

00:03:35.240 Thank you, by the way.

00:03:36.920 Right.

00:03:37.320 No, I mean, I don't do all of those things just to be like a weirdo.

00:03:43.240 I do them for a very specific reason.

00:03:47.600 It's so that when my daughters see the way I treat my wife, they desire that outcome for

00:03:56.480 themselves in the future.

00:03:58.260 And when my sons see the way I treat my wife, they treat their own wives that way.

00:04:05.580 And then their own daughters think, oh, being a wife is awesome. 1.00

00:04:12.000 And so someone, I wonder, you had talked to me before about what you've felt like growing

00:04:16.220 up.

00:04:16.860 Right.

00:04:17.500 Yeah.

00:04:17.940 So I thought growing up when I was young just meant, you know, giving a bunch of things

00:04:23.360 up, like giving up your career and then having to take on a whole bunch of additional

00:04:28.080 responsibilities.

00:04:28.800 So just basically meant more work, but, you know, not really being celebrated.

00:04:33.780 Not that my father wasn't absolutely amazing to my mother.

00:04:37.200 He was, but there was no like elevated status in, in Silicon Valley, like in the very progressive

00:04:42.560 Bay area for women. 0.92

00:04:44.060 I remember the first time I saw someone stand up when a woman got up at a table. 0.91

00:04:48.020 And when the first time I saw a man, like a ceremonially open a door for a woman, I was 0.79

00:04:52.300 floored.

00:04:53.420 I really liked it.

00:04:54.200 Well, so you've been around my family, like you've been around my cousin.

00:04:57.820 Yeah.

00:04:58.080 And they're like, yeah, they're, they're very, yeah, they're, they're raised like Southern 0.61

00:05:02.220 gentlemen and I'm all for it.

00:05:04.580 But yeah, so there was definitely, I mean, like I had zero incentive to, to, to not only

00:05:09.900 have kids, but get married at all because why, I mean, it just basically meant that you

00:05:15.040 were technically more entangled with a friend that was supposed to make you happy for the

00:05:21.800 rest of your life, which isn't really what, you know, we found marriage to be about and

00:05:25.660 what it's not sustainable.

00:05:26.440 But I think what's more interesting about this is that a lot of these men's rights activists

00:05:32.300 are sort of like manosphere figures that are complaining about your behavior online or

00:05:36.260 missing is, is they think that like showing deference to women is, I don't know, suggesting

00:05:42.780 that they are in a position of power or yielding power to them.

00:05:46.140 And I think it, there's something more interesting at play in American culture there where, where

00:05:51.000 shows of, of power or shows of politeness are no longer seen as shows of power where

00:05:58.700 in, in earlier times they were.

00:06:01.500 So in, in the book, Albion Seed by David Hackett Fitcher, he talks about, especially in the South

00:06:07.860 where the cavaliers first migrated to the American colonies, there was the concept of condescension

00:06:14.180 was very different from what it is in a modern America.

00:06:16.880 Do you remember this part where he, he was basically talking about-

00:06:19.760 Yeah, no, it was a very positive thing.

00:06:21.200 Yeah.

00:06:21.460 So, well, no, condescension was essentially like noblesse oblige.

00:06:24.520 So when you condescended to someone, you, through your more informed or your more powerful,

00:06:29.980 more educated, more, you know, whatever, from a position of power, you were showing kindness

00:06:34.520 to someone who hierarchically, powerfully, whatever was below you.

00:06:39.880 So condescension was like benevolent paternalism.

00:06:44.880 And I feel like part of what has happened in, in American culture is that there's a lot

00:06:50.780 of status anxiety or like, like around even acknowledgement of differences.

00:06:53.840 I think it's more than that.

00:06:55.140 So I think something that the manosphere accurately points out is that as a man, when you show emotional

00:07:02.360 weakness or you defer to a woman in your life consistently, for many women within our current

00:07:09.760 cultural context, they will permanently look less upon you.

00:07:14.760 They will, you know, like you've talked about this.

00:07:17.580 Some people are like, oh yeah, you know, open up to your wife, you know, have a cry, show

00:07:20.980 how sad you are about something.

00:07:22.820 And you've been like, actually, this can permanently damage your relationship with somebody, even if

00:07:27.640 they don't want it to.

00:07:28.660 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because especially because if someone like if they're, I mean, using our

00:07:33.940 terminology, if they're lore in your relationship, the thing that they use to attract you and

00:07:39.700 bring you in was, oh, I'm very powerful.

00:07:42.380 I'm very strong.

00:07:43.900 And the thing of value that I provide to you is to feel like you're always surrounded by

00:07:47.860 this invulnerable, super powerful person.

00:07:50.220 Of course, it's going to break the entire selling point when that person suddenly becomes

00:07:55.280 vulnerable and where you, the other partner, find yourself in a position where you feel

00:07:59.360 like you need to be the powerful one, which, you know, many people just don't want to do

00:08:03.360 that.

00:08:03.580 They want to surrender, you know?

00:08:05.400 No, absolutely.

00:08:06.140 Yeah.

00:08:06.420 And so I think that they do recognize this aspect where.

00:08:10.880 And there's something there, but there it's so there's a big difference between vulnerability

00:08:15.580 and and showing like, I don't know, putting someone on a pedestal or like groveling at

00:08:22.180 their feet and showing a polite deference to to someone.

00:08:27.640 Well, I'll divide this because I think you're capturing something really true, but I called

00:08:32.660 the way I treat you in our family pedestalization, which is to an extent, but it's a bit of a wrong

00:08:37.300 word because I think when we think of pedestalization within the manosphere, what we're thinking of is

00:08:43.180 the way that we sometimes pedestalize a woman who we have a crush on or something like that.

00:08:48.320 Right.

00:08:48.520 And we begin to think too much of them or treat them with too much deference, you know,

00:08:52.240 before relationships start, when I first started dating you, I treated you not this way as

00:08:58.580 much.

00:08:58.960 No, but you know, when I realized and when it was very clear that our relationship was long

00:09:05.980 term and I began to integrate with you identity wise, it became very important when I thought

00:09:12.660 about the image I am portraying to my daughters around what a marriage means.

00:09:17.640 And so this sort of divides things into three broad categories.

00:09:22.320 Okay.

00:09:23.480 Behavior patterns you can show, right?

00:09:25.780 One is the behavior pattern where you as a guy are sublimating yourselves to a wise desires

00:09:32.660 because she is pushing these desires upon you.

00:09:34.940 She is saying, I want this.

00:09:37.360 I want that.

00:09:38.180 I want you to change X, Y, Z about yourself.

00:09:40.840 And you're like, oh, okay.

00:09:42.280 Okay.

00:09:42.800 Yes.

00:09:43.160 Whatever you want, you know?

00:09:44.640 Right.

00:09:45.380 And, and, and this is true.

00:09:46.860 This is a submissive position, which can, if it is not what a woman wants, hurt her perception 1.00

00:09:53.060 of you permanently.

00:09:54.480 Totally.

00:09:54.780 Even if you were just trying to make her happy.

00:09:57.160 Right.

00:09:57.360 Then there's the secondary position, which is to say, okay, I am going to constantly show

00:10:04.120 my dominance to the women in my life, constantly build frame in which I am this hotshot and

00:10:12.520 they are this weaker person than me.

00:10:15.820 Right.

00:10:16.020 Um, and one thing that I would always say, and, and this is, this is something I'd so

00:10:22.360 want to, like, I actually think Andrew Tate has some good points.

00:10:25.340 I don't hate everything he says.

00:10:27.100 I think he has some interesting things, but I think the, the one thing I would frame or

00:10:32.400 my biggest disagreement from him is weak women make weak sons. 0.95

00:10:36.700 And it's true. 0.56

00:10:38.440 And if you have a whole attraction strategy, if you have a whole life strategy for how you

00:10:44.180 are treating your wife that consistently disempowers her, you are making a weak mother and weak 0.99

00:10:51.400 mothers genetically and socially will lead to weak daughters and weak sons, which permanently 0.99

00:10:57.480 weakens your family line.

00:10:59.220 Well, and furthermore, treating a mother, any mother figure or woman in a relationship like 0.66

00:11:04.840 trash, isn't going to inspire daughters to be really excited to enter those relationships 1.00

00:11:10.900 or have kids. 0.95

00:11:11.140 People are like, oh, my sons will be okay.

00:11:12.740 But then your son's daughters will not be okay.

00:11:15.160 So anyway, but then there's this other category.

00:11:17.280 So I've, I've talked about this dichotomy of categories of, of, of male to female treatment.

00:11:21.160 Yeah.

00:11:21.720 Then there's this other category of treatment, which used to be the gentleman.

00:11:26.620 Okay.

00:11:27.840 And it's funny in historic society, like when, when, when these manners came up, it's almost

00:11:34.300 like they didn't conceive that there might be a world in which women lorded over men.

00:11:39.240 They were just like, how do you not lord over your wife too much?

00:11:42.940 And so this, this whole new category of behavior is like a new thing that nobody really knew

00:11:46.620 how to deal with.

00:11:47.280 So it wasn't really considered when all these rules were created, but a lot of it means that

00:11:51.900 you have to be there to protect your wife and your wife's emotional state to somewhat

00:11:58.600 anticipatorily.

00:12:01.280 Right.

00:12:01.720 So you went on a trip, right.

00:12:04.160 And I know the things you care about.

00:12:05.820 You just came back from a business trip, making our family money.

00:12:08.140 I love that.

00:12:08.620 Right.

00:12:08.900 And I didn't have to go.

00:12:10.700 And I, I know that you don't care about flowers or stuff like that, but you really care about

00:12:15.040 how clean things are.

00:12:16.140 So, I mean, it's a point of having the car detail when you got back and having the house

00:12:19.660 look really pristine when you get back because early in our relationship, which you would

00:12:23.580 leave the house would just fall to hell when she left all the dishes would pile up, 0.97

00:12:29.240 everything like that.

00:12:30.180 And I saw it emotionally hurt her.

00:12:32.540 Now, she didn't then go to me and say, Hey, Malcolm, never do this again.

00:12:37.920 Right.

00:12:39.680 But she knew because of the, the priors I had set in our relationship that when I had obviously

00:12:47.980 emotionally hurt her or put her in a bad emotional state that I had shown in the future, I don't

00:12:54.620 like hurting my wife.

00:12:56.080 So in the future, I went out of my way to try to prevent those states.

00:13:00.800 Right.

00:13:01.000 And that showed how much I cared about her while also showing, I think, you know, if I had

00:13:06.980 kids who were more cognizant in the house right now, that dad's really thinking about how mom

00:13:14.620 feels and he's trying to make her feel special, particularly when she puts herself out from

00:13:21.580 the family, but also just every day.

00:13:23.220 But yeah, I think there's something else that has been lost that men are missing out on.

00:13:31.420 And, and it's again, like it comes back to class.

00:13:35.200 Like I was saying earlier, a lot of the discomfort, I think, or a lot of where this got lost was

00:13:39.540 this, this sort of loss of comfort with there being class differentiation, or frankly, in

00:13:44.360 any differentiation, gender differentiation, anything like that.

00:13:47.120 So like men opening doors for women, people acknowledging that there are different social

00:13:51.460 classes, like it just makes people super uncomfortable.

00:13:53.520 And we all pretend that it's not real, even though we all know that it's there and we

00:13:57.980 all experience it every day.

00:14:00.220 And, and if, I think that's one reason why men are misunderstanding what it looks like to

00:14:05.640 be dominant and then ending up just kind of acting like trailer trash when they try to

00:14:10.120 be dominant, you know, it's just, you know, they, they think. 0.63

00:14:12.400 Oh my gosh.

00:14:13.420 I love, no, it's true what you're saying.

00:14:15.780 Right.

00:14:16.200 And, and, and this is because when an individual is resource scarce.

00:14:20.600 Oh God, this is going to sound so bad, no matter how I say it.

00:14:24.500 Do it.

00:14:25.060 Okay.

00:14:25.400 Let's not see what an individual is resource scarce.

00:14:27.300 When an individual is under a lot of emotional stress, their inhibitory pathways don't function

00:14:32.520 the way they would normally function.

00:14:34.760 You know, if you had like a full civilizational construct around an individual and they begin

00:14:39.560 reacting in a way that is very animalistic, it's, it's, it's their base impulses.

00:14:46.860 Right.

00:14:47.500 And so when they are asserting dominance, you know, it's what you think you're better

00:14:52.300 than me.

00:14:52.880 You think you're better than me.

00:14:53.960 Well, what is a person saying when they're saying that they're really saying, do you think

00:14:57.360 you're of a higher dominance position than me in this local hierarchy that we've created?

00:15:02.320 How dare you think you are dominant in, in comparison to me?

00:15:06.040 And when they do that, Oh, you think about, you know, they're puffing themselves up like

00:15:09.620 an animal trying to get in like a gorilla and another gorilla, like in a dominance fight.

00:15:13.200 Right.

00:15:13.780 And humans default to this.

00:15:15.300 Right.

00:15:16.140 However, every cultural group has different, more refined ways to handle these dominant

00:15:23.140 fights that don't involve two males making themselves look big and then like physically

00:15:27.340 attacking each other.

00:15:28.440 Because that's really cost.

00:15:30.600 If you have to solve every dominance fight was like actual physical violence, their actual

00:15:35.000 you know, and this is what Simone means when she says she mentally is associating with this,

00:15:43.400 this was, was like lower socioeconomic groups because lower socioeconomic groups, like anyone

00:15:49.840 who's resource scarce is, is, are going to have the less luxury of the ability to suppress

00:15:57.060 these things.

00:15:57.480 And often their families have been in this situation for multiple generations.

00:16:00.820 So they might have lost even the cultural software for how do I handle a dominance fight with 0.68

00:16:07.660 another male other than puffing myself up and then beating him up.

00:16:12.140 Right.

00:16:12.340 I think we've lost, we've lost a lot of the ways that people historically demonstrated dominance

00:16:19.200 in, this sounds terrible, it's really classist, but in a, in a civilized fashion.

00:16:24.420 So anyone who's read the original, like Peter Pan by J.M.

00:16:27.700 Berry will recall that the, the constant fight between Peter Pan and Captain Hook was actually

00:16:34.500 pretty interesting.

00:16:35.320 And both of them were like pretty obsessed with good form, good form.

00:16:39.340 They were always like, oh, that was bad form.

00:16:40.980 That was good form.

00:16:41.980 And it wasn't, it wasn't about who won the fight.

00:16:45.420 I mean, they, they both really cared about the fight, the art of the fight, and also like

00:16:48.980 playing with good form.

00:16:50.540 And I think that there's something about traditional successful masculinity that involves good form,

00:16:58.720 not just like successful showing of dominance or violence or disregarding another party.

00:17:05.720 It involves fighting right, fighting fair and fighting clean.

00:17:10.040 I forgot who said this anyway.

00:17:11.800 Well, I'm going to find whoever said it from our listeners.

00:17:15.320 They'll be like, oh, I know who said this quote.

00:17:16.920 So the quote is something like a, a true gentleman is defined by an individual who knows how to

00:17:23.920 open a quarrel and maintain one.

00:17:26.800 And what that means is that actually part of, at least in the Victorian period, being part of

00:17:32.280 this upper class society was about starting specific quarrels with individuals, but also

00:17:39.900 all of the rules for how these quarrels worked, right?

00:17:43.560 You could be one of these guff people who has seen, what's an example of somebody who is like

00:17:48.160 bad at quarrels, Andrew Jackson, right? 0.94

00:17:50.820 He'd just shoot anyone. 0.83

00:17:51.840 He'd be like, okay, going to a duel, directly to a duel. 0.85

00:17:55.480 You disagree with me, duel time.

00:17:57.640 The man did not know how to fight.

00:17:58.960 And that would have been seen within the period.

00:18:00.340 And it was seen within the political advertisements is like a very low class way of handling these

00:18:04.420 disagreements, whereas within these, and again, sorry, we're talking about class so much here.

00:18:10.860 And I really need to be clear what I mean by this in a historic context.

00:18:15.760 Every cultural group had its own complicated set of rules for disagreeing with another individual

00:18:22.800 and conflicting with another individual.

00:18:25.320 But those broke down and would become more and more the pre-evolved set of rules, which

00:18:31.760 previously I referred to as animalistic, but it's really humanistic.

00:18:34.940 It's really the way humans act if they lived on a desert island and were never exposed to

00:18:40.100 any other cultural group.

00:18:41.060 Yeah.

00:18:41.200 Like we're talking about the presence or evidence or trappings of culture, AKA civilization.

00:18:48.020 Like the presence of a set of values of traditions of, of basically pro-social per that culture

00:18:56.680 or religion, um, uh, civilizational technologies or the absence of them.

00:19:02.900 And the problem is what we're discussing is, is that there's, there's basically an absence

00:19:06.320 of civilizational, cultural, religious, whatever you want to call it, technologies in male

00:19:11.760 dominance, especially as demonstrated to women.

00:19:14.100 Right.

00:19:14.700 Well, yeah, but you, you can, I mean, there's other ways around this.

00:19:18.200 So when I was in high school, you know, one of the things I always told you about the,

00:19:20.820 the fights, I got in a lot of fights in detention and stuff like this.

00:19:24.620 And I realized pretty early, there was a specific strategy I would use in my fight.

00:19:28.660 So I would physically often lose the fights individuals.

00:19:32.840 I was not the strongest kid.

00:19:35.400 I mean, I was, I was medium strong.

00:19:36.840 Like I knew how to fight, but I couldn't ensure that I would always win a fight.

00:19:41.940 However, what I could ensure, and I always went into fights with this strategy is always

00:19:47.560 give my opponent a bloody nose or a black eye because after the fight, even if they physically

00:19:54.660 caused more damage, I'm in more pain.

00:19:57.040 I have more long-term damage to my body because of that fight.

00:20:01.020 They walk out and they go to a group and the public sees the two of us and they did damage

00:20:06.320 to my torso or some other area.

00:20:08.340 I have a few bruises that are easy to cover up, but they have a black eye for the rest

00:20:12.640 of the week, or they're walking out of that fight with a bloody nose.

00:20:16.720 People perceive the public perception is they lost the fight.

00:20:21.780 And what they misunderstood going into that fight is they thought the purpose of that fight,

00:20:26.780 even from an animalistic, you know, middle school, high school context was to hurt me.

00:20:32.180 The actual purpose of the fight was to determine our positions in the local hierarchy of our

00:20:39.540 high school or middle school.

00:20:41.200 Actually funny, but most people, our listeners might be surprised that I always was really

00:20:45.680 obsessed with protecting any group that I thought was disenfranchised was in my current

00:20:50.300 community context.

00:20:51.020 So most of the fights I would get into were protecting gay people because I would, so this

00:20:56.280 might seem really weird to a Gen Z audience today, but when I grew up, you know, me standing

00:21:03.620 up to people who were using derogatory terms that I can't even say on YouTube now towards

00:21:09.940 gay kids at my school to protect them was something that would cause them to fight me. 1.00

00:21:16.520 I mean, let's talk about why it caused them to fight me, because this is actually really

00:21:18.780 interesting as well.

00:21:19.420 So when you're talking about like how human social hierarchies work, when, when, when one

00:21:25.060 group of people is like making fun of another individual, if I come and I stand up for that

00:21:31.220 individual, I say, Hey, stop this.

00:21:32.940 You guys, I have actually asserted myself even was in their dominance hierarchy as head, like

00:21:38.380 above the highest person was in their dominance hierarchy.

00:21:41.960 And if they capitulate to that, if they walk away, they have lost status within their local

00:21:48.500 dominance hierarchy and was in the global dominance hierarchy of the school.

00:21:51.640 So they're almost sort of like trapped, like they, they can't avoid, and we'll do another

00:21:56.020 episode on, on bullying because this people not understanding how like high school dominance

00:22:00.140 hierarchies work, it causes a lot of bullying, but they're trapped.

00:22:03.020 You know, they actually have to fight me to, to show that, that they haven't lost face,

00:22:09.500 but if they then come out of that fight with physical damage and black eyes were the thing

00:22:13.260 I always really aim for because those last for about a week. 0.85

00:22:15.780 And so, you know, they can then tell people, Oh, I beat up Malcolm, but they have a black 1.00

00:22:20.740 eye and I look fine on the other side of the classroom.

00:22:23.420 It doesn't sell.

00:22:25.140 It doesn't sell.

00:22:26.000 And, and this is where all of this comes down to is so much of the ways that we act and

00:22:32.460 posture are about changing our dominance positions vis-a-vis other people was in our

00:22:38.500 society.

00:22:38.900 But we forget how those around us are judging that and how those within our own family are

00:22:45.380 judging that.

00:22:46.000 And this is where, when we're talking about the way a man treats a woman in a long-term

00:22:49.420 relationship, why it's very important to like intentionally build a culture for your

00:22:54.080 family.

00:22:54.860 I don't think you ever feel that I am like putting myself in a submissive position to you

00:23:01.160 when I am going out of my way to make you feel good about yourself.

00:23:04.860 Do you, or like, how is it that I have prevented that framing?

00:23:10.640 Yeah, I think, I think it, a lot of it depends on contextualization.

00:23:15.460 So when condescending to a woman or when showing deference to a woman comes from a position of

00:23:22.920 power, then you're, you're asserting dominance essentially.

00:23:26.480 So when, you know, think about all the scenarios of like traditional gentlemen, you know, a traditional 0.59

00:23:31.580 gentleman, paying for a meal, paying for a meal that comes from a position of power.

00:23:35.940 Well, hold on, not always.

00:23:37.540 If a, if a, if, you know, there's two different ways you can end up paying for a meal.

00:23:41.620 What is another person's like snidely.

00:23:43.760 Oh, like stiffing you or something.

00:23:45.120 Right.

00:23:45.580 The other one is Southern gentleman style where everyone's fighting to pay for the meal.

00:23:49.580 You know, happens whenever we're visiting my family because the person who pays for the

00:23:53.440 meal has shown their higher social status than the other people in the community.

00:23:56.660 Right.

00:23:57.240 Yeah.

00:23:57.520 Yeah.

00:23:57.920 Yeah.

00:23:58.140 But yeah, so I would say, yeah, opening doors, the, the, the very classic example that freaks

00:24:03.580 me out of the man throwing down his coat.

00:24:06.140 So the woman doesn't, you know, step in the mud puddle. 1.00

00:24:09.180 Well, a man who does that has to be in so much of a position of power.

00:24:12.660 They can have people to clean his coat for him or several coats that he can change into.

00:24:16.460 Right.

00:24:16.640 So a lot of these gallant moves actually are dominance displays.

00:24:20.880 It's just, I think people have forgotten the context of them.

00:24:23.860 Whereas when instead it comes from a position of weakness, oh, I'm afraid.

00:24:28.140 And because my female partner is unhappy, I need to go make her happy. 1.00

00:24:33.420 Or I'm afraid because my female partner is going to get angry at me. 1.00

00:24:37.300 If I don't appease her, then it, you know, comes from the completely wrong position.

00:24:41.860 And it shows a lot of submission on the male part.

00:24:44.140 So I think a lot of it is it's proactive.

00:24:45.860 Like you were saying earlier, one of the things that you do is anticipate my needs.

00:24:50.140 So I'm not asking you to do something.

00:24:52.360 You are anticipating my needs and acting ahead of me acting as though I need something or

00:24:57.400 showing that I need something.

00:24:59.040 So if it's anticipatory and if it's a, if it's a display of having either more emotional

00:25:04.740 control, more resources, more strength, all those sorts of things, you know, like lifting

00:25:09.020 up suitcases for me.

00:25:10.300 And when you always put, you know, my suitcase in the overhead bin, you always handle our

00:25:13.660 luggage.

00:25:14.300 Like that is, that is a, that's a dominance display.

00:25:16.960 So I think that's the key differentiating.

00:25:19.240 How you're culturally relating to it.

00:25:21.720 That makes it one.

00:25:22.820 And I actually think that this is an important thing was in relationships, right?

00:25:26.260 When you are dating a woman, as a guy today, I would say, you get a chance to see how she

00:25:33.660 reacts to gentlemanliness.

00:25:36.860 I guess I would call it if she perceives it as a weakness, right?

00:25:42.680 And I think you can tell pretty quickly, does she, does she think that she's the one scored

00:25:47.180 a point on you by you being gentlemanly to her?

00:25:50.200 There's really nothing you can do.

00:25:51.820 There is no way that that relationship ends happily unless you just go like full Tate and

00:25:58.720 you basically dominate her and treat her like a house slave, right? 1.00

00:26:02.820 But if she has the acculturation and the upbringing, which many women, so the great thing is you

00:26:09.580 might be like women these days, no women these days, especially if we're talking Gen Z from 0.99

00:26:15.360 the families that are actually having kids.

00:26:17.100 A lot of them have the class, regardless of their economic status, to see that politeness

00:26:24.060 and gentlemanliness is a kindness to them.

00:26:26.740 Because it's many of these more traditional families that are having these large families 0.68

00:26:30.100 and women in these families are raised to recognize these things.

00:26:33.900 If you are dating women who don't recognize that when you are opening the door for them, 0.98

00:26:39.760 that it is not because you are beneath them, right? 0.99

00:26:43.860 If a woman thinks that, then she's trash, right? 1.00

00:26:46.360 No, you know, I think it's two things here. 0.97

00:26:48.760 One is I feel like the key differentiating factor between submissive male action that's

00:26:54.220 deferential towards women and dominant male action that's deferential towards women is

00:26:58.100 whether it's proactive or reactive.

00:27:01.420 Proactive is a dominance display.

00:27:03.260 Reactive is a submission display.

00:27:05.400 Second, I kind of feel like proactive male dominance displays and deference of women are 0.99

00:27:11.020 shit tests from men. 0.99

00:27:12.360 So if you as a man take a proactive dominance display, you pay for the meal, you open the door 0.99

00:27:16.820 and the your date, your female date, like sniffs at that or doesn't appreciate it. 0.75

00:27:23.020 And that's key.

00:27:24.100 Then, you know, she's not a good match. 1.00

00:27:26.340 Like she needs to be shown right away that it's super not cool that she did that.

00:27:31.140 And if she doesn't change, then she's not a good match.

00:27:33.320 But it's one of those things where you point out in the practice guide to relationships,

00:27:36.880 how if you don't immediately draw lines with partners and explain this reaction is totally

00:27:42.460 not cool.

00:27:43.480 You know, if we keep doing this, like we are not a we, then, you know, nothing's going to

00:27:48.260 happen.

00:27:48.520 But what do you think about that as, as a.

00:27:50.320 I think that's a really good point.

00:27:51.820 And it comes, you know, when you talk about paying for meals, I think that's almost the

00:27:55.920 core of it, right?

00:27:57.660 Whenever I would date women on the first date, I would usually, unless I took them to an 1.00

00:28:03.100 unusually expensive restaurant, like I did with you on the first date, I would usually

00:28:06.620 go 50 50, right?

00:28:08.520 But even when I take them to an expensive restaurant, like when I took you to an expensive restaurant

00:28:12.120 and I would pay for it, if you hadn't thought to pay for it, I would have treated that as

00:28:17.560 a extreme red flag.

00:28:19.420 And you didn't, but you're like, no, no, no, you know, I have to do this.

00:28:22.260 And I'm like, no, no, no.

00:28:23.140 I took you to a more expensive restaurant than you would have gone to.

00:28:25.260 You know, I bought you drinks.

00:28:26.660 You've never really drunk before.

00:28:28.240 You know, so we're, we're, I'm the first restaurant I took her to.

00:28:31.600 Um, she goes, oh, I don't drink and I don't eat meat.

00:28:33.840 And I was like, well, you know, what I say, like, that's not happening if you're dating

00:28:40.060 me.

00:28:40.320 And so she goes, okay, I guess I'm eating meat and drinking, but you know, I, I, I put

00:28:44.280 her in that position, but she still fought back against me paying for it. 1.00

00:28:47.440 So I knew that she had a level of gratitude for me doing that.

00:28:50.460 And I think that this is an area where we begin to see a corruption of the gentleman values

00:28:55.180 that can happen after a few generations of a culture.

00:28:57.340 And we need to really work to make sure it never happens, especially with our daughters

00:29:00.180 is just because they know a man is, can show their dominance through paying for something. 1.00

00:29:05.080 They should never expect them to.

00:29:07.260 Yeah.

00:29:07.380 And also never exploited.

00:29:08.740 I mean, at least in media, I don't know if this happens in practice.

00:29:12.180 It's, it's implied that a lot of women are like, oh, it's a free meal. 1.00

00:29:15.320 Like I'll go on this date.

00:29:16.500 Cause it's a free dinner and I don't feel like paying for dinner, but I want to go

00:29:19.620 out.

00:29:20.160 And that's, that is really screwed up.

00:29:23.220 Or they see it as an exchange.

00:29:24.740 Like I go out, he does this, I get this.

00:29:28.220 Instead of he is showing his, his upbringing through how he's treating me and his level

00:29:34.980 of respect for me.

00:29:36.220 And I do think the other thing that you said there is the anticipatory aspect of being

00:29:40.240 a gentleman when you're in a really like long-term relationship with somebody, you're one of

00:29:47.320 the core things that you're supposed to do as a partner.

00:29:48.900 And you do this for me all the time as well, is you try to understand them the best you

00:29:54.600 can.

00:29:55.320 So, you know, the things that are necessary, the things that are harder for them than for

00:29:59.540 you and, and the, the things you could do to make them feel special and that you aren't

00:30:05.060 doing those things just on days where you're trying to make them special.

00:30:08.560 But that is a natural part of every interaction you have with them.

00:30:14.640 And I think that that is, is the key, but that they never lose their gratitude for that.

00:30:21.080 And as I've said over and over again, when you're choosing who you marry, the single most

00:30:26.000 important thing is not how hot they are.

00:30:29.860 It's, it's not how smart they are.

00:30:32.480 I think the second to the most important thing is work ethic.

00:30:34.480 Work ethic is a very important, but it's how much gratitude they are capable of showing

00:30:39.720 because some people in our society have just been trained out of showing gratitude.

00:30:46.560 You know, if you were to embody, you know, we were talking about Andrew Tate earlier, like

00:30:49.720 a full Tate mindset.

00:30:51.200 I genuinely don't know if he's capable of feeling gratitude for the things the woman in 1.00

00:30:56.000 his life do for him.

00:30:57.020 And that would lead to a really like not great long-term relationship.

00:31:01.520 Like, I think he's smart about a lot of things.

00:31:03.040 I just, you know, and it may just be framing.

00:31:05.180 It may just be the way he's showing himself to the public.

00:31:06.760 That's like biteable, like hookable for young guys, but the ability of both yourself and

00:31:13.280 a partner to show and genuinely feel gratitude when the other person anticipates their needs

00:31:19.340 and goes out of the way to address them.

00:31:20.980 I think that's just so, so, so key.

00:31:24.440 And no matter how perfect a partner is for you, if they are unable to feel gratitude when

00:31:30.720 you go out of your way to be nice with them, so they can be the hottest, smartest, richest

00:31:34.860 person in the world.

00:31:36.340 If they don't feel gratitude when you go out of your way for them, the relationship won't

00:31:41.480 last.

00:31:41.840 It will devolve.

00:31:43.600 It might be five years.

00:31:44.860 It might be 10 years.

00:31:45.940 But a breakup of a relationship, especially the longer the relationship is, the more you

00:31:51.460 suffer, you know, either because they get some of your kids who do then get raised in 0.56

00:31:55.900 an environment where they're like poisoned against you or all of the other terrible aspects.

00:32:02.300 Well, this has been fun to talk about.

00:32:04.720 I think what we're going to focus in on more with our kids and teaching them like inter, inter-gender

00:32:11.480 relations, is a heavy emphasis on good form, proactive, anticipatory, kind action on both

00:32:21.380 parts.

00:32:21.660 It doesn't matter what gender you are, what role you're playing, whatever.

00:32:25.000 And then looking for gratitude from that partner when you show that action.

00:32:29.400 And if you don't see it, either show that that's super not okay and see if they change

00:32:32.960 or just drop them.

00:32:34.380 Yeah.

00:32:36.100 I love you, Simone.

00:32:37.040 And I hope that our daughters can see that and that they grow up believing and that our

00:32:41.600 sons grow up understanding how a woman should be treated within our cultural group so that

00:32:46.860 their own daughters are really excited to become wives and mothers.

00:32:51.700 I think there's no way they're not going to see it.

00:32:53.820 I love you so much, Malcolm.

00:32:55.180 You're the best.

00:32:55.680 I love you too.

Based Camp - August 21, 2023

Why Did Men Waste Time Being Gentlemen？

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