Based Camp - Why is Fertility Collapse Happening Faster in Some Places Than Others？ (& Are Women at Fault？)

00:00:00.000 Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be talking about

00:00:03.500 a theory about fertility rates that come out from Cremieux, friend of the show. Don't know

00:00:08.820 if he's ever been on. We should ask him. Nice guy. But anyway, he has done a new theory where

00:00:15.520 he tries to understand why fertility rates fall faster in some countries than other countries,

00:00:21.580 i.e. what is protective of fertility rates. And the gist of the argument is that these countries

00:00:29.660 modernized later, and that caused them to maintain more of their ancestral culture,

00:00:35.500 specifically the misogyny and gender roles, which is not properly updated for the new context,

00:00:42.860 and leads to a crash in fertility rates. And I thought that the theory was really interesting,

00:00:47.620 so let's go over it piece by piece, because I think he might be onto something here.

00:00:51.680 But any thoughts before I start? Let's dive in. Let's do it. All right, let's get a graph on screen

00:00:57.320 here. You got to enhance. Enhance. Yeah. Give us the visual. And the premise that Cremieux sets is,

00:01:08.840 what differentiates the countries in orange from the countries in blue? Why did the orange countries

00:01:14.280 plunge into ultra low fertility, while the blue ones have maintained themselves better? 0.99

00:01:19.120 So let's talk about the two country groups. Orange includes Korea, Spain, and Italy, while blue includes

00:01:27.660 the United States, France, and the United Kingdom.

00:01:31.040 And Cremieux groups them into two sets. He says the countries in the first set are group one nations.

00:01:37.240 In the second set, they are group two nations. Notice anything about their growth rates? One thing

00:01:42.120 is that they've all grown to similar enough levels. Another is the acceleration of the pace of growth.

00:01:49.120 So in the second tweet, he shares two additional graphs showing different trajectories of growth

00:01:55.920 and different fertility rates. In group one, nations started off a bit richer, and they grew at a more

00:02:03.160 stable pace. In group two, the nations started off poorer, but they caught up to group one by growing

00:02:08.200 faster in the latter half of the 20th century. Their fertility rate trajectories followed suit.

00:02:15.160 And so what you see here is a really interesting thing in group one countries, where we've talked

00:02:19.860 about it in other videos, but around the 1930s, there was a huge fertility crash that a lot of

00:02:24.120 these group one countries recovered from. This was mostly due to medical technology, although

00:02:28.000 housing in the war played a role as well. And you can look at our video on, you know, the baby boom

00:02:35.020 to get more information on this. But the gist being is that if you take the baby boom as an anomaly,

00:02:42.100 and you sort of try to draw a through line through these, it looks fairly stable. Whereas these other

00:02:49.200 countries start to crash really dramatically and pretty quickly. And what's interesting is most of

00:02:56.740 the crash in these other countries' fertility rates happens between 1920 and I'd say 1980. So before

00:03:05.120 our modern time. And that's where they're dropping for much higher initial fertility rates. So if you

00:03:10.940 look at it, like sort of the mean fertility rate at the beginning of this period in 1920 for the group

00:03:16.420 two, all of these countries where they started with a much higher mean fertility, let's say around

00:03:21.160 four or maybe even 4.5. Whereas the other group started with a mean fertility of 3 to 3.5. So

00:03:30.660 it's almost as if the higher fertility you start with, the lower your fertility goes over time.

00:03:37.140 Yeah. And Cremieux has a theory around this. Cremieux writes, all societies used to be pretty sexist.

00:03:42.940 They used to repress women in various ways. And that was just that for all of human history. But as

00:03:47.400 societies have developed, one of the major changes has been that women's status has quickly moved up

00:03:52.980 to the levels that have only once been seen by men. With slow continuous growth, these norms changed

00:03:58.700 and women's acceptance was taken up gradually without much need for pushing. But with rapid growth,

00:04:04.760 the picture is far different. The norms have changed more slowly than the markets. And that may have

00:04:10.220 been disastrous. You can see plenty of signs of this everywhere. For example, in the group one nations that

00:04:15.100 experienced slow and steady growth, men and women tend to have more similar household labor

00:04:19.220 distributions. He then shares a graph of time use and fertility among the 12 group one and group two

00:04:25.240 nations. And there is somewhat of a negative correlation between total fertility rate and female 0.99

00:04:30.220 minus male daily hours of unpaid household labor. He continues, similarly, in the case of distributions

00:04:37.060 in the home is incidentally related to fertility among this group of developed countries. He shows

00:04:43.020 another graph with negative correlation between time and fertility among 20 nations. He writes,

00:04:48.640 I'm aware there are issues with treating this as if it's causal. But the point here is less about

00:04:54.820 the particular example of household time use and more about how norms change over time with slow versus

00:05:00.140 rapid growth. Take South Korea as an example. In South Korea, men's attitudes towards women are still

00:05:05.640 pretty unrefined. A potential result, enormous sex differences and getting along in politics. 1.00

00:05:11.060 These gulfs are opening up the world over, but South Korea is the most extreme example. 0.98

00:05:17.800 Here he shares a Financial Times graph showing the ideology gap opening up between young men and women

00:05:22.600 in countries across the world. With South Korea being the first country shown, and just over time,

00:05:28.900 especially from 2015 to 2020, the gap is just like, like they're just becoming different species.

00:05:34.340 Whereas in the US, the gap is violent, but not that insane. In Germany, it's a little bit less bad

00:05:40.820 in the UK. It's also, I mean, they're all getting worse. And this resonates with me. I mean, I could

00:05:46.420 see a lot of the tension there making sense. I actually think Grok came up with a better answer,

00:05:52.020 but I do like this answer. It's definitely something that is contributing to the fertility collapse that

00:05:57.920 we're seeing in Italy and Spain is the idea that not, sorry, not Italy and Spain, South Korea. I don't

00:06:03.940 know why you said that, but it was likely the same thing is that men are staying much more misogynistic

00:06:10.120 in their attitudes and expectations of their wives than men are in the United States. And if you get

00:06:16.840 female liberation in terms of the workforce, with all the misogynistic attitudes now, marriage becomes

00:06:22.280 an incredibly raw deal for women, just in terms of hedonism. I'm not saying in terms of like genetics

00:06:26.660 or whatever, but if you are expected to handle the kids, handle the house and handle a career that's

00:06:33.100 equivalent to your husband's career. And he just, what does whatever, like takes the status bosses you

00:06:38.960 around. Like why would you want that? Right. And then a lot of men feel like, well, you know, you should

00:06:46.040 give us like, we do need to maintain some degree of our historic culture. So I understand why they're

00:06:50.720 pushing back and they think a lot of women have gone too far and their accusations around men,

00:06:54.840 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, if you look at the level of misogyny and misandry in Korea, 0.98

00:06:59.300 it is at a completely different level than what you see in the United States or something like that.

00:07:03.900 Like these two genders are almost two separated political classes now. And that's definitely more 1.00

00:07:10.320 in Italy. I grew up partially in Italy. I lived there for a year when I was a kid. And one of the things

00:07:14.980 I distinctly remember is the constant catcalling. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. And this is,

00:07:20.420 this was true when I was growing up there. And I remember this being an American from Texas,

00:07:23.740 being in Italy and in Texas, I don't remember ever hearing catcalling.

00:07:28.180 Golly. Okay. You just wouldn't do it. Like you'd get beaten up or something, you know,

00:07:32.380 but in Italy, no, it's considered very normal for guys to be, you know, really. And, and people who

00:07:38.840 don't understand why catcalling is bad. Like you are intentionally harassing in a way that is meant

00:07:45.340 to be derogatory of their status in relative to your status, a woman. A lot of people think that

00:07:52.360 this is like, I don't know that there's like, there might be some women who have like a weird 1.00

00:07:55.800 fetish for it. They're not even a weird fetish. I'd actually say it's probably a normal fetish

00:07:59.140 to like being publicly humiliated by men saying you're attractive. But I don't think that it is

00:08:05.060 something that you're going to see a lot of in countries where women are seen as, 1.00

00:08:10.720 you know, tough or deserving of their own like rights. Now, when I put this into any thoughts

00:08:17.680 before we go to what Grok has to say? I'm no, you have me so curious about what

00:08:21.760 Grok is going to say. I can't say no. All right. So what I put into Grok to sort of test it.

00:08:28.280 So if you look at the countries that he includes in the two groups, I decided to only include a few

00:08:35.060 of the countries that he includes in the two groups to see if Grok's findings hold true for the

00:08:39.800 other groups that are in the two groups. So the full two groups that he used was Denmark, France,

00:08:45.000 Germany, Sweden, UK, US. The second group was Greece, Italy, Japan, Korea, Portugal, and Spain.

00:08:52.280 So I decided let's just do two. Okay. So what's the difference between South Korea, Spain, and Italy

00:08:57.500 and the US, France, and the UK? All right. Culturally speaking. Sure. What?

00:09:02.880 It says the most striking thing would be respect for elders with, and this is definitely true, 0.50

00:09:09.280 with the US, France, and the UK having much lower levels of this than Spain, Italy, and South Korea.

00:09:17.520 And so then my question could be, oh, is that cultural distance also true in the other countries

00:09:21.800 here, like Greece and Portugal? Yes, it is. Okay. What about the other countries on the other side?

00:09:28.480 Germany and Denmark? Yeah, definitely. Way lower respect for elders. And if I actually think about

00:09:34.360 where countries have seen fertility collapse hit the hardest, like Japan, Korea, China,

00:09:40.380 these are all countries that have a unique respect for elders. Where has fertility hit uniquely lowly?

00:09:46.560 Greater Appalachian cultural region, as we've mentioned, which has almost no respect for elders

00:09:50.260 at all. Like elders are kept alive, but like... We won't kill you, but... We won't kill you,

00:09:59.640 but it's all... We'll resent you a little bit. And Jewish culture. And I actually argue Jewish culture 1.00

00:10:05.860 does not have a particularly high respect for elders when contrasted with, let's say, Korean or

00:10:11.300 Japanese or Confucius culture. You have like a little degree, but I don't... I'd say less than

00:10:17.420 Christian, even like your modern, like East Coast Christian. Elders are just not assigned a high

00:10:23.420 status unless they can meritocratically prove that they deserve a high status. So it's not that you

00:10:30.120 don't see elders in positions of status. It's just that being elder in and of itself is not a thing

00:10:34.580 deserving of respect. Okay. And so the question could be, why would that cause... Well, let's go into

00:10:40.600 it a bit more before we ask why. Yeah. South Korea, Spain, and Italy appear to have a cultural

00:10:46.380 similarity and that they have a deep respect for their elders rooted in traditions like Confucianism

00:10:50.640 in South Korea and Consolacism in Spain and Italy. This respect manifests in behavior such as using

00:10:54.900 formal language, giving up seats for elders, and prioritizing family roles, which contrasts with

00:11:00.380 the more individualistic and youth-focused culture that the U.S. and the U.K. and France. However, it shows

00:11:05.920 a... France, it says, shows a blend of this. Hmm. Okay. Here, it also divides stuff with looking at

00:11:12.840 individualism versus collectivism, with the cultures on this side being much more individualistic,

00:11:18.560 which I also see, and much more low power difference, which I also see. So that's another

00:11:22.980 thing that could be causing this. Greece, Italy, Japan, Korea, Portugal, Spain, all are less

00:11:28.620 individualistic, more collectivist and have higher power differences, whereas the U.S., U.K., Sweden,

00:11:34.740 Germany, France, and Denmark all have fairly low power differences. So let's think about how this could

00:11:41.720 have caused a fertility issue, right? Okay. Yes. The respect for elders is, I guess, it's fairly

00:11:48.440 obvious to me. Like, where, when resources are limited and demographic collapses are already

00:11:54.320 underway, do you distribute the resources that are left? You're going to, if you could choose more

00:11:59.980 babies or elders, you're going to choose elders. Yeah. I mean, a country like Korea should be spending 1.00

00:12:05.340 as much on family creation as it spends on elder care. 100%. Yeah. And I'm fairly sure,

00:12:11.700 it's not, I'll add and pose, but I'm fairly sure it's not even like, you know, maybe one-tenth what

00:12:15.540 it's spending on elder care. Okay. I found myself surprised on this one. They only spend about double

00:12:19.660 on elderly costs. In elderly costs in South Korea, it's around 51 to 54 billion USD. And in children,

00:12:26.300 it's around 18 to 22 billion USD per year as of 2025. So the elderly care ratio is two to 2.5x

00:12:33.860 birth incentives. Yeah. If you look at, so, so that makes perfect sense to me because it's about,

00:12:39.780 or me as an individual, like if one of my parents was like, oh, I'm ailing, come help me. I can't

00:12:45.940 survive on social security. It's in a message. I have four kids, you knob, F off. Yeah. Like your problem.

00:12:56.580 Your problem. Hey man, I got five kids to beat. I'd be like that scene from Team America where

00:13:03.840 he's like, if you get caught, you may need to take your own life. And he slides a hammer across the

00:13:07.720 table. Well, you'll probably want to take your own life. Here, you'd better have this. 0.99

00:13:19.040 All right, team. That's it. We've got a job to do. That'd be me. I'd be like, you know,

00:13:23.360 you know what to do. You know what to do. Okay. So that I see. Now let's talk about individualism.

00:13:30.800 Why would high individualism lead to higher fertility rates in these cultures? The answer

00:13:35.380 here could be that you have an easier time resisting the monoculture and dominant cultural

00:13:40.020 practices within your country. And so you're going to have more people who sort of buck the trend,

00:13:45.140 which I could definitely see leading to higher fertility rates in many of these countries.

00:13:50.000 You were going to say something? No, no, no. I'm agreeing with you. Yeah. And then high power

00:13:56.080 distance. That makes a lot of sense. I think in the modern world, high power distance just doesn't

00:14:00.420 really work that well anymore. This is where like your boss is like really high above you in status.

00:14:05.660 And this is actually really true in a lot of Latin America where we're also seeing a unique

00:14:08.700 fertility collapse. It's sort of across Catholic cultures because you have like the people who 0.78

00:14:13.420 matter and then the people who are the people, right? And why this leads to fertility collapse is I think

00:14:18.280 the people, people like don't see a point in continuing the cycle anymore. They don't want

00:14:22.320 to put people into this system where they're going to be an underclass. And yeah, that makes perfect 1.00

00:14:28.180 sense to me. Why would you continue to participate in that? The final sort of hypothesis I'd have here

00:14:34.360 about what would lead to this is just a longer time to evolve a resistance to the urban monoculture.

00:14:40.760 I think the urban monoculture didn't really care or the iterations that existed before it,

00:14:46.500 like the pro-domal iterations of it, didn't really focus on these other countries when they were

00:14:51.320 super poor and culturally different. And I think that was leading to their high fertility rates at

00:14:55.320 that period. And so they didn't have a century for the people who are slightly lower fertility rate

00:15:02.500 when exposed to the urban monoculture to die out disproportionately. And so now they're all dying

00:15:07.000 out at once. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. It's so dire. That is, that is interesting. I don't

00:15:19.620 know. I still, I'm still finding myself, however, gravitating toward the, the misogyny thing just

00:15:27.300 because so much of this problem is couples just failing to get married. True. And a misogynistic

00:15:35.140 attitude pervading a culture where women have an option not to marry is going to lead to women 0.97

00:15:39.680 not as enthusiastically engaging with the marriage culture. And every high fertility family we know 0.87

00:15:46.360 personally has husbands has husbands who contribute a lot are extremely supportive. If they, if they're

00:15:55.680 the breadwinners, they also contribute a lot of labor. Um, if they are not the sole breadwinners,

00:16:01.480 they contribute probably as much labor as their wife also breadwinners contribute, you know,

00:16:08.240 this is just like, actually, I might word it differently. I'd say every high fertility family

00:16:11.580 that we know has a husband who would be considered a simp by like the manosphere or the Andrew Tate

00:16:17.560 movement. And not necessarily like, like for example, us, I'm not like a simp in a traditional

00:16:22.040 term, but people have been like, Oh, Malcolm, you're like overly nice to your wife. You overly

00:16:26.120 pedestalize your wife. You, and I'm probably of all of the high fertility men that we know 0.64

00:16:31.420 the most traditionally masculine. Except for maybe Kevin Dolan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin

00:16:39.580 Dolan's pretty traditionally masculine, but yeah, the, the, yeah, I think that you're a hundred percent

00:16:46.140 right here. Women have kids when they feel supported and protected because a woman in a modern context is 1.00

00:16:53.520 just not going to feel like you have her back if you're pulling this. And, and the truth is,

00:16:59.060 is you don't, I think we saw this was a quiverful movement. And it's part of the reason the quiverful

00:17:02.880 movement sort of fell apart was a understanding of the man's role in the household. Instead of adapting

00:17:08.820 to modern and changing pressures, they tried to go with this dictatorial male in control woman at home 1.00

00:17:15.320 does nothing birthing. And it didn't create an environment that daughters wanted to recreate or that 0.87

00:17:21.800 sons were capable of recreating. Yeah, I agree. And, and actually here, I thought I read something

00:17:29.780 really interesting on our discord that somebody posted about the failure of the quiverful movement

00:17:35.240 to replicate itself. And I was like, Oh my God, this is so true. I've got to read it. So this is

00:17:41.460 from the person on the discord called cat. I don't know. It's some sort of vegetation and they have

00:17:50.940 three kids because people say that on the discord, how many kids they have. I have so many thoughts

00:17:55.280 regarding this topic as somebody who is raised quiverful adjacent Christian homeschooler who

00:18:00.360 attended quiverful co-ops, et cetera. But my family wasn't specifically quiverful ourselves.

00:18:04.800 I think the big factor of their failure is the way that they specifically and intentionally raised

00:18:10.540 non-agentic children. Boys in general have a, had a bit of a rudderless time over the past few

00:18:16.920 decades, but I've never seen anything like the slow motion catastrophe that has been the quiverful

00:18:22.040 boys aging out of their homeschooling regime. The prototypical quiverful family is a first generation 1.00

00:18:29.080 of fairly beta white collar husband, fairly crazy homeschooling mother, raising sons who are

00:18:36.300 simultaneously long house browbeaten under mommy's supervision his entire life while also being

00:18:41.780 inculcated with an irrational entitlement complex based on being male, not being accomplished.

00:18:47.520 They can't follow in their haired, checked out father's white collar footsteps because they are 0.97

00:18:53.300 undereducated colleges of this world, but they often don't have the connections or

00:18:58.860 savvy to make it in the working class trades world. So they either languish in some sort of 0.94

00:19:04.360 drifting failure to launch, or if their family is particularly committed to get married off and

00:19:09.160 are expected to support a family that increases by one every year, starting at the age of 18

00:19:13.720 on nothing but thoughts and prayers. It's such a mess. Anecdotally, I can confirm mass

00:19:19.500 deconversion rates. I don't think the Duggars are at all archetypical. They mostly compensate for the 0.98

00:19:25.160 above issue by having all that TLC money that Jim Bob bought real estate with. So he basically

00:19:30.080 supports his sons through the dad welfare. It's just crazy to me that they had all this IBLP

00:19:37.640 propaganda about how they were going to raise a Joshua generation that's going to take over the 1.00

00:19:42.420 government and lead a worldwide revival and then raise the least agentic children ever walked the 0.84

00:19:47.340 earth. Timid, sullenly. Not good. Not good. Complete and utter failure and refutation of the

00:19:54.420 movement's philosophy. Yeah. And yeah, I completely agree with that. And I think that that might be

00:20:00.060 what we're seeing in these cultures that have these stricter power differences between the old and the

00:20:03.440 young as well, is that they are, but they put really strict rules on their kids. And if you look

00:20:08.100 at our family, while we have rules for our kids, I expect them and will be proud of them when they break

00:20:13.280 those rules. That's part of why we use corporal punishment instead of limiting punishment to just

00:20:17.960 like yelling or emotional escalation. Because when a kid does something bad, it allows me to quickly

00:20:24.800 show them like, Bob, they did something wrong, but I still love you. Like it was recorded in that piece

00:20:29.700 so that they understand that breaking rules does not remove them from the circle of love of the family

00:20:35.800 and that I will set down a fence and rules for them. But I still, especially when they're breaking

00:20:42.720 rules in their own, you know, based on their own internal moral compass, have respect for them

00:20:47.240 in doing that. And, you know, you see this, as I've mentioned in previous episodes, like

00:20:51.880 Jordan Peterson, a guide to raising simps. Jordan Peterson is like, you just need to break the child's

00:20:58.460 will down until they listen to you. And I'm like, that is not a good idea. That raises non-agentic

00:21:04.120 children. You want to build the child's will up until they take from nobody. And if they don't

00:21:10.420 understand why you're giving rules and you're just like, you just obey the authority, then they're

00:21:14.440 just going to obey the urban monoculture. And I think a lot of these religious families, that's 0.60

00:21:17.920 what they were, just obey the authority, just obey the authority, just obey the authority. But they

00:21:21.120 thought the authority was always going to be the church. And they didn't realize that the authority

00:21:25.780 changes based on the person's context of their interacting within the real world. And so they were

00:21:30.820 easily browbeaten. And they also created males that like, who would want that? Like a lot of girls just 0.99

00:21:36.440 aren't going to want that. And, and so they, they get assist, you know, because it's like much worse

00:21:43.980 than like a Mormon community or something where you have more of the church, like keeping track of

00:21:48.080 things and less a chance that one man is going to be like overly domineering with his family or

00:21:54.820 something within these more dispersed Protestant communities. I, as a woman, honestly, I wouldn't want 1.00

00:22:01.840 to marry into one of these. I'd be really worried. Uh, especially if they were raised with a sort of

00:22:06.000 like, well, men lead the family attitude, like, and we have me as a man lead the family. I just

00:22:12.860 consider that a gift from Simone. Well, and back to our repeated theme of, of real dominance,

00:22:19.980 real dominance, isn't shut up and do what I say, follow my orders. Real dominance is demonstrating

00:22:25.660 through your competence, good decision-making and good leadership, natural leadership, that your plans

00:22:31.520 are trustworthy and the best way to go. People fall in line. There is no ordering and there's

00:22:35.720 no shutting people down and systematically training them to be compliant. You don't need to train people

00:22:40.920 to be compliant when they know you're right. And that's the big difference.

00:22:44.520 Yeah. Well, and we had the episode on, on Andrew Tate, where I was like, Andrew Tate's idea of

00:22:49.680 masculinity. It's like, he watched the gladiator and he's like, ah, the emperor. That's what the ideal

00:22:54.220 man is like. And that, that, you know, the, the gladiator Maximus, he's a simp. Whereas the exact

00:23:00.120 opposite is true, you know, and I pointed this out because if you watch it, he attempts to force

00:23:07.240 the women around him to follow his wills, literally at sword point, you know, like Andrew Tate being 0.99

00:23:11.360 like, this is why I have a sword. So women don't, you know, they talk down to me and you see the 1.00

00:23:15.720 emperor playing with like a sword in his house, you know, and wanting to be loved. And I think

00:23:20.900 that if you look at Maximus, none of this is about being loved by people or anything like that. He just

00:23:24.720 has a duty and he's carrying it out. And it's certainly not about like, if you look at the character of

00:23:29.680 Maximus, you look at the relationship he's framed at having with both his kids and the woman who has

00:23:33.100 that desperate crush on him is, is this is not a guy who is pushing around his wife, telling his

00:23:39.080 wife, like get in the kitchen, telling his wife, like you do what I say. Now, you know, the wife 0.99

00:23:43.720 is making him dinner because she cares about him. Right. And they're working on a shared goal or

00:23:47.900 something like that. Like you don't have any feeling like they don't have traditional gender roles,

00:23:52.340 but the traditional gender roles are carried out because those are the preferences of the male and the

00:23:57.800 woman. They are not carried out because the woman has some supernatural reason to be obedient or 1.00

00:24:03.280 some like biological mandate to be obedient to her husband. It's just average biological differences 0.99

00:24:09.620 here. Yeah. Yeah. Which means that there also is no commitment to those specific roles. And the

00:24:19.680 commitment is to where someone's propensity and skill lies. So if, for example, a man and a woman

00:24:27.420 or whatever configuration of people you want work to pair up and start raising kids together,

00:24:31.820 we're not going to be like, well, you're the woman. So of course you're doing those things. It's 0.93

00:24:34.860 well, okay. What are you going to contribute best? Do that thing. So if a man ends up doing all of the 0.99

00:24:40.140 cooking, indoor cleaning and infant rearing, fine, we're, we're not married to that. And I think a lot

00:24:45.000 of these really conservative religions are, um, and these, these cultures as well, like when the,

00:24:49.540 the man can't do that, even if he'd rather do that, like, even if the woman has the highest educational

00:24:54.320 degree and the greatest earning potential and the greatest professional network, she has to 1.00

00:24:58.380 become the mother who stays at home and somehow the less educated, less connected, less privileged 0.93

00:25:04.640 man has to earn enough for both. So this isn't just like a religious culture thing. This is also

00:25:09.160 within the wider online manosphere, right-leaning culture where recently there was a fight of memes

00:25:14.820 in which there was this concept of like the dad meme or the husband meme. And it's typically the

00:25:20.520 husband being like, Oh honey, of course I'll do X for you. Or I'll do Y for you. You know,

00:25:24.320 he's doing something sweet for the wives. It's like normal for her husband to do.

00:25:27.520 Yeah. This was known as the wife Jack meme wars. I was wrong. It wasn't about a husband meme. It was

00:25:32.280 a wife meme. And then a bunch of guys were like, Oh, like you guys posting what a simp you are,

00:25:37.980 you know? And the guys of course, complaining that these other guys are simps are unmarried. Right. And

00:25:42.380 it's like, well, that's genetically what's being preserved in the human condition. It's not a simp.

00:25:47.360 It's being able to work with people and being able to appreciate what other people are bringing

00:25:51.880 to the table. And it has become almost within these cultures seen as a sign of submission or

00:25:58.640 browbeatenness. If you are shown as making either concessions to your wife, or you are shown as

00:26:06.380 having appreciation for your wife. And yet anybody who is going to have a lot of kids knows that those

00:26:12.520 two things are like within a modern context, critical to, I think, having, let's say over

00:26:18.360 five kids. Like you just can't get to these sorts of numbers. If you're not doing that, if you're, if

00:26:23.420 you're taking the, you do what I say approach, you're going to really struggle to get that high

00:26:28.140 because the woman is just not going to be all about it. She's going to be like, what am I doing

00:26:31.880 all this for? Like, what am I raising my daughters for? Like, what's the point? Right.

00:26:35.360 Yeah. It's demotivating.

00:26:37.200 Yeah. Slave mentality. If you want to turn your wife into a slave, she's going to labor like a 1.00

00:26:41.720 slave. Intrinsic motivation is just a billion times more powerful than extrinsic motivation as

00:26:47.460 is seen across countless studies, research, anecdotal examples. So this shouldn't be common

00:26:53.940 sense. Their wives following them for the same reason in Gladiator, why people followed what the 1.00

00:26:58.280 emperor said instead of the reason why people followed what Maximus said. And it's, it's a completely

00:27:03.160 different, are they following you because you're inspiring them or are they following you because it's

00:27:05.900 rules and because you'll hurt them if they don't. And I think that, that this sort of like ideal of

00:27:13.200 male aesthetics, that's not really working for any man anywhere that I'm aware of, except for maybe

00:27:18.040 Andrew Tate is like super toxic. And with Andrew Tate, it basically only works because he's super

00:27:23.760 wealthy. Like women will do a lot of crazy nonsense for, for very wealthy men. Yeah. It's a trade-off. 1.00

00:27:29.720 Especially if they have like a public profile or something like that. Like you look at the

00:27:35.000 simp women that like Elon gets or something like that. But I could not treat you the way that Elon 1.00

00:27:40.740 treats his wives. Like I would never get away with that. Like you'd leave me. And I don't think that

00:27:47.080 like, and somebody's like, is that fair? It's like, dude, he's a, he's like a infinity billionaire.

00:27:52.320 Like fair is not part of the equation. It's a different social contract when you're interacting

00:27:57.940 with somebody like that. It's like, it's like, Oh, the King in, in like, you know, medieval Europe

00:28:04.260 or something like that treats their wives differently than you do. It's like a entirely 0.57

00:28:09.420 different social contract exists for the King. Of course. Like what, what are you like? How could

00:28:15.740 you think that? And I think that you get sort of two categories of influencers who like go into

00:28:20.800 this category of influence. One is they're super successful. They become super wealthy and they're

00:28:26.440 able to live some sort of like unrealistic life. The other, they go like the Nick Fuences path and

00:28:31.740 they end up like a forever celibate. Right. You know, where they can't like his advice on the way

00:28:38.000 you should treat girls leads to the extinction of your culture. Like he is living proof of that. 1.00

00:28:43.420 Yeah. He's not going to have any kids likely at this point, given how old he is already,

00:28:47.980 or at least not many, not unless he uses IVF, which he won't. And so my problem is, I mean,

00:28:54.400 men really can afford to delay fertility, but they're either ensuring that their children are 1.00

00:29:01.160 not going to be very healthy or they need to freeze their sperm. Guys, please freeze your sperm 0.99

00:29:08.380 for the love. Like, although here's my other problem with like genetic health, it degrades it around the 0.87

00:29:14.160 same rate as female genetic health. It just doesn't fall off a cliff. And these, these higher risk

00:29:18.180 factors that your child will get, if you have them with older sperm, like higher risks of cancer and

00:29:25.820 all sorts of other disorders, they get passed on to your grandchildren and their grandchildren. So what

00:29:30.340 are you doing? But beyond that, like, so, I mean, one, it is actually super possible if you free sperm

00:29:35.640 to have healthy children late in life and, you know, put that off. My problem is that older men 1.00

00:29:42.200 are still in a bad situation if they choose to do that, because either you end up with,

00:29:48.060 you know, your perfect, sexy, 20 something wife who is never going to be on your level because there's 1.00

00:29:55.100 so much of an age gap. You know, you're never really going to have an intellectual equal. I mean,

00:30:00.420 you might need someone who loves old souls, but still like age, you know, it's, it doesn't quite

00:30:06.060 work as neatly as I would hope on that front. And then, or you end up with an older woman who 0.99

00:30:12.400 probably hasn't frozen her eggs. And then you have the same problem with genetic material.

00:30:16.480 Well, and these men are going to be doing like you, okay, let me put it this way. You,

00:30:21.980 a guy right now, you're like, yeah, when I'm 50 or 60, I'm going to get a young woman and I'm

00:30:27.060 going to have lots of kids after I'm rich. Do you, do you want a child? Do you want to raise

00:30:32.220 a child and then have her raise child? Like, not just that, but like, do you even want to be having

00:30:38.180 that sex? Like, no, I'm being honest. Like you, do you really want like a 50 year old sleeping with 0.99

00:30:43.400 like a late 20 something? Like, do you think that's hot for the 50 year old, even at that point? Like

00:30:48.220 where you're taking all of the medications so that you're still horny and you're taking all of the

00:30:53.240 pills so that you can still get hard. Like that's not hot.

00:30:56.820 And then there's also the problem, like the most, and I, this is not spoken about enough. The most

00:31:04.020 unsexy type of sex is obligatory sex, especially if you know that the partner is like having sex 0.89

00:31:13.180 out of obligation and they may be great at acting, but I'm pretty sure that the vast, vast majority 0.80

00:31:20.400 of 20 something girls who marry wealthy and successful, much older men are faking it. 0.94

00:31:28.060 Which is the worst type of woman who's pretending to be into you. 1.00

00:31:32.100 Which is the worst type of sex. I just like, I could never, I could never have sex with someone 0.97

00:31:36.480 like that. I'm just saying that like, they think that what they're getting is just delaying and

00:31:41.820 then they get the young hot wife. And it's like, no, you get the young hot wife when you're young

00:31:46.240 and hot, or you get some other type of weird relationship. Not like you create that relationship

00:31:52.100 later in life. So that's going to be a possibility for them. But the reality is it's not either from

00:32:04.220 a genetic standpoint, that real of a possibility or from a, you know, they're not like, oh, I can delay

00:32:10.540 getting this now and I'll get it in the future. No, you're not getting it in the future. You're getting

00:32:14.440 some weird other thing, which is, which is not as fun. You know, you, anyway, love you to death,

00:32:20.860 Simone. I am glad that I settled down with you. I had another one that I'm not actually not going

00:32:26.560 to make, cause I just know it'll do bad, but it was really interesting to research, which was

00:32:31.420 if the trope of the bachelor party where people felt like they were like marrying a ball and chain

00:32:37.740 and like, oh yeah. Like this is my last moment to go wild. Yeah. I was like, is this real?

00:32:42.420 Like, is it, was this ever actually a thing that was practiced in large numbers? Cause it like,

00:32:46.660 doesn't seem. Well, I thought it was a condensed version of the sort of Catholic model that existed

00:32:51.740 back all the way to like ancient Roman times where it was just kind of understood that debaucherous

00:32:58.420 wealthy men would have all the female partners they wanted and then try to sober up later in life when

00:33:04.920 they got married and that a bachelor party is kind of compressing that for less wealthy people.

00:33:09.560 What, what, what did you find in your research? Well, yeah. I mean, apparently it did really

00:33:13.500 happen and it, you know, they were like, well, I understand that today. Cause I was like,

00:33:17.740 it doesn't even make logical sense. Like you're about to get married to presumably the person that

00:33:21.380 you love more than anyone in the world. And you've been so excited to spend your life with

00:33:24.840 like, why would you go out and sleep with other people right before that? Like, why would you want

00:33:29.360 that? And it was like, oh, well, you see people didn't actually used to love their wives

00:33:34.100 during this period of history. Yeah. I mean this, the, yeah, the alternate take there is

00:33:38.260 hold on, actually, maybe this was the sign of a better world in which people got married

00:33:47.600 as business arrangements and saw sex as something that they did separately, but also lived in

00:33:51.880 monogamous societies. A breaking of both, which is to say that it was this period of the boomers 0.96

00:33:57.140 where they got all of the divorces, you know, they had like the really high divorce rate

00:34:00.400 and they'd had terrible marriages. Like everybody knows, like the boomers were almost 1.00

00:34:04.360 like the pure infantilization of humanity where they were a generation that had very little 0.96

00:34:10.420 self-control, very little, like is obsessed with self-validation, just, you know, broke

00:34:16.620 a lot of social traditions that were actually really important without understanding what they

00:34:20.540 were doing. Didn't really pass money down to their kids intentionally. Didn't really establish

00:34:26.060 the idea of like intergenerational family units well in the way that their ancestors had.

00:34:30.400 They just sort of, after the greatest generation, it just like increasingly degraded.

00:34:34.700 And then you got to the boomers. And I think since the boomers, every generation has been sort of 0.62

00:34:40.080 building themselves a little bit back from that point. You know, you look at Gen Alpha and they're

00:34:44.920 definitely a lot more mature than the boomers in terms of the way they relate to things like sex

00:34:49.740 and sexuality and, and, and parties and wives and everything like that. And I think that the boomers 0.57

00:34:55.520 were this generation where they got married out of obligation because it was sort of like what they did.

00:34:59.700 They were like a generation that, that wanted to live this white picket fence ideal, or they had 0.60

00:35:06.440 like an ideal of what they wanted to live without thinking about why these things were ideals,

00:35:11.240 without thinking about why you had kids or without thinking about everything was just about like

00:35:14.660 hedonism and consumerism for them. Very much what I think, you know, something like Fight Club

00:35:20.880 was arguing against was the mindset of the boomer generation. And then you have other generations

00:35:28.400 trying to reestablish some sort of stable state norm after the boomers. 0.74

00:35:34.260 Huh. Well, that's interesting. It's an interesting idea. Okay.

00:35:39.980 I mean, they're the generation that had all of our societies that just take out debt forever, 0.90

00:35:43.860 instead of actually trying to build like stable civilizations. They're the generation that 0.98

00:35:48.120 frees the most whenever we bring up fertility collapse. They're the generation that's out. 1.00

00:35:52.140 If you look at these, these Trump protests, everyone is like, it's wild that they're all

00:35:56.320 like elderly white people. Those are the only people protesting. 0.61

00:35:59.900 So weird. So weird.

00:36:01.600 But they still get their news from the news, like CNN and stuff. And so they think that like,

00:36:06.340 oh, the evil Trump is out again. Well, and I guess it's, it's very boomer to think that protests

00:36:13.780 actually work because I don't know. I guess I should go to a protest one day and film and just

00:36:22.320 be like, you know, protests don't work. Nobody cares about what you're doing here.

00:36:27.200 No, you have wasted a day. Do you have nothing better to do with your lives?

00:36:31.020 One of the things that we really can't stand is listening to people who have really bad brain

00:36:35.980 rot and the kinds of people who attend protests are, I would argue the epitome of that type of

00:36:43.540 person. Remember at natal con, there were those protesters outside the opening night and

00:36:49.360 Kiera, the journalist from mother Jones. So try to talk to them sufficiently progressive,

00:36:56.120 right. Didn't look conservative, came up to them, approached them as a mother Jones journalist

00:37:01.640 and attempted to talk with him with them. And when I saw her after her attempted interaction,

00:37:07.640 she's like, well, I couldn't get a word on edgewise. Like she attempted to interview them

00:37:12.320 and they were so brain rotted that she literally couldn't ask them a question to get their opinion

00:37:20.460 on the matter. They were protesting.

00:37:22.520 Well, it's funny. You say that there's been a lot of videos that have been going viral

00:37:27.280 of people going to these Trump protests and trying to talk to people and they don't know 0.96

00:37:31.640 why they're there and they don't know why Trump is a fascist. They're like, Trump's a 0.90

00:37:34.960 fashion. They go, explain. Like, what has he done that makes him a fascist? And what the

00:37:40.880 right is taking away from this is, oh, these must be paid protesters who don't actually have

00:37:44.940 a vested interest in this. I don't think that's it. I think they're just brainless,

00:37:48.080 brain rotted automatons who are like, CNN says Trump is bad. No, I go to field and yell 1.00

00:37:54.360 at people. I genuinely think more people are like closer to like NPC automatons than you

00:38:00.340 would imagine.

00:38:03.520 Maybe. Maybe they're just all in the same Facebook groups. I imagine this is a Facebook

00:38:08.320 groups thing. If it's mostly boomers, it's just, oh, no.

00:38:12.200 Anyway, that makes sense, right?

00:38:13.520 Hey, no, it does. It does. Tonight.

00:38:18.740 For dinner? Hot dogs. Hot dogs.

00:38:20.960 Yeah, and I'm going to do my, we got them in all these.

00:38:23.220 I got your relish.

00:38:24.220 All these buns.

00:38:25.340 All these amazing. Oh, yeah. They're brioche buns. We really went all out for that.

00:38:30.420 You're going to toast the buns, of course.

00:38:32.320 With butter, obviously.

00:38:34.000 We are going to, though, save my curry for another night. I can have it tomorrow.

00:38:41.140 Yeah.

00:38:41.540 And I'll do hot dogs tonight.

00:38:43.160 Good lunch tomorrow. Hot dog night. Very American. Big deviation from your typical meal

00:38:49.120 choice. But everyone seems to want hot dogs right now, so.

00:38:53.780 Well, the kids wanted hot dogs, and I was like, you know what? We've got the onions. Now we've

00:38:58.020 got relish. We've got.

00:38:59.400 Do you want them in confetti or slices? Thin slices.

00:39:05.160 Oh, onions and hot dogs you typically want in slices to get more crunch.

00:39:08.700 Thin slices, yeah. Not. Although I guess I've seen it both ways.

00:39:10.840 Or I think of relish, and I think of the confetti.

00:39:12.780 No, either way works, honestly. The confetti works just as well, because you get crunched

00:39:16.180 from it, too. So, you know.

00:39:17.160 Actually, I'm thinking confetti is better, because you can really finely chop it, and

00:39:19.980 you don't want to have, like, really peeling off noodles. You know what I mean?

00:39:24.140 So, you guys in the comments need to answer this. Hot dog onions. Is it confettis, or is

00:39:30.220 it noodles? Confetti or noodles for hot dog onions?

00:39:33.960 Asking the hard questions. I'm more interested if you will have alternate theories between the

00:39:37.800 group one and group two countries. If it's that feminism didn't catch up as quickly with economic 1.00

00:39:45.140 development, which then led to a faster backlash and separation between the sexes, or if Grok's

00:39:49.640 theory was more accurate, or if it's something else that you think is going on, because I find

00:39:53.980 that quite interesting. I had previously thought that leapfrogging development, like really fast

00:39:59.000 development was a good thing, because you ended up getting, like, building infrastructure when tech

00:40:03.380 was already more advanced, so you ended up with much better systems than, say, the United States

00:40:08.260 had, because you were developing using, you know, third to fourth generation later technology and all

00:40:13.820 these other things, and so this is making me look differently at the benefits of developing quickly

00:40:18.440 and later. But, yeah, I'm curious to hear people's theories on that.

00:40:22.800 All right, Simone. I love you to death, and have a spectacular day.

00:40:26.640 Goodbye, my dear husband, and I will give you a call on your phone when you're at Nurse

00:40:31.020 Renee, so please, please, uh, thank you.

00:40:36.480 Wow!

00:40:38.080 Wow, you can read it.

00:40:40.320 I got a purple card.

00:40:42.020 Mommy, can you read it?

00:40:44.140 Sure, it says...

00:40:47.200 That is so cool.

00:40:51.760 Look at that, Josie.

00:40:53.180 Do you want to put it on the fridge?

00:40:55.300 Yeah.

00:40:55.700 Okay.

00:40:56.540 Okay.

Based Camp - April 08, 2025

Why is Fertility Collapse Happening Faster in Some Places Than Others？ (& Are Women at Fault？)

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Summary

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