Based Camp - Why People Leave Their Religion & How We Will (Try To) Guard Against It

00:00:00.000 let's talk about science inconsistency because this is a bigger problem for christianity than

00:00:03.040 christians like to pretend so christians will be like look at all of the great things that we

00:00:07.420 the western tradition have accomplished and what they are carefully ignoring here is that most of

00:00:15.160 the most important scientists in the past hundred years if they were born within the judeo-christian

00:00:20.320 tree left the judeo-christian tree either during their period of most productive work or at least

00:00:25.760 before they die so you don't really get to like clearly there's a problem here for whatever reason

00:00:31.240 your most productive scientists are leaving the tradition this is a big problem it's actually

00:00:36.860 interesting how symbiotic like if this takes off how symbiotic it is with traditional cultural

00:00:41.040 traditions and that it literally sees it as a religious order to help protect their members

00:00:46.520 from deconverting and it only wants to prevent the people who they would otherwise have bleeding off

00:00:53.860 from it but they would really rather not fall to the urban monoculture we can act as a good backstop

00:01:02.040 which can prevent talented individuals from falling into the urban monoculture so it's acting as part of

00:01:07.120 this cultural economy that prevents the true dangerous force from destroying our civilization

00:01:13.460 before it can reach the stars and ensuring that the western cultural tradition does join the stars to

00:01:20.860 some extent so i'm gonna be like why don't you care about the eastern cultural tradition because it's

00:01:23.740 not us like i have no connection to that it would be weird and almost kind of racist for me to attempt

00:01:29.580 to simulate that or simp that you know we can we can work to help them where we can but we're not part

00:01:35.340 of that tradition would you like to know more simone and malcolm are back hello simone this is gonna be a

00:01:43.280 fun particularly spicy episode today i always get worried because our religion episodes they typically

00:01:49.060 perform really poorly at first and then they do better after a while i think it's lower click

00:01:54.900 through higher watch time but they're my favorite episodes to do because it's a topic that i just have

00:02:00.860 been thinking so much about recently and i think you know in the question of pronatalism

00:02:07.060 becomes such an existential question for our species because in writing the pragmatist guide to

00:02:13.860 crafting religion i mean from the pronatalist perspective it seems to be the only thing like

00:02:19.380 religious cultures that are able to motivate high fertility in wealthy groups like the only thing

00:02:25.880 like i have not found anything else that reliably seems to do it but then in addition to that in

00:02:32.340 writing the pragmatist guide to crafting religion it just became really obvious to us that uh there's a

00:02:37.140 correlation between the rise of mental issues in our society and dangerous viral memes like the virus

00:02:46.240 which is what we call the the urban monoculture sometimes and the decline of religious traditions

00:02:52.140 i mean religious traditions may have been like a janky antivirus that had a bunch of bloatware on it

00:02:58.740 but it was the only antivirus we had yeah and when people ripped it out they didn't realize how

00:03:05.700 susceptible they were making the population to extremely virulent and and quite selfish and

00:03:11.820 dangerous memetic sets and we're now beginning to see the fallout of all of that this all comes to a

00:03:16.800 problem for us right so a lot of people are like well then just go back to one of the old religions

00:03:21.740 and we've done an episode on this but but it's something i want to pontificate on more while also

00:03:26.220 talking about how we construct a system for our kids which is designed to have a low low bleed rate like

00:03:33.860 withstand this storm this what you know this this it's like a bunch of the century storm that's

00:03:40.440 only getting worse every year that all of the religious traditions have to intergenerationally

00:03:45.120 weather against before we get to the other side of this so so how do i build that but in thinking

00:03:50.540 about that i think a lot of people from more traditional religions will be able to think about

00:03:54.580 some of the tools and techniques that we're using and where they could implement them within their

00:04:02.180 existing systems to lower the bleed rate with their own kids now and in part to answer you know why

00:04:09.620 not one of the old traditions which is a question that constantly comes up yes i think it goes worse

00:04:15.960 talking about so recently i was interviewing my dad about his life we've done hours and hours of this

00:04:19.900 now so i'll see if i posted on here and i was asking about you know when he left the religious

00:04:24.260 tradition right like when my family left the faith because if he's half me right what it means that if i

00:04:30.540 tried to raise my kids in one of these the traditional religious contexts they might leave

00:04:35.940 as well for whatever reason he left christianity right and he was as antagonistic enough towards

00:04:41.340 christianity that he refused to get married in a church for example i recently oh wow and when he

00:04:47.280 was normally even like totally indifferent people deigned to get married in a church if a spouse cares

00:04:52.440 about it and he bragged about never once going into the central church where all of the like a lot of

00:04:57.360 formal stuff is done at stanford he went really out of his way to avoid ever setting foot in there

00:05:02.760 so that's intense that that is uh yeah the level of useful antagonism he had toward these institutions

00:05:08.060 so he when he was younger was in sunday school and he ended up the it was apparently a fairly big thing

00:05:16.900 where he was punished pretty severely like it was considered like a pretty big deal that he had done

00:05:22.100 this and what he had done was gotten very interested in the logistics of the noah story

00:05:28.760 and trying to figure out how that was possible because you know someone was talking to you about this

00:05:34.720 you're like yeah all the measurements are there like if you really want to like get nerdy and go deep

00:05:40.040 on the logistics of this to try to figure it out that's the type of thing that of course anyone who's seen

00:05:46.100 me talking you know i talk about humans as intergenerational entities it's exactly the type of thing that would

00:05:51.160 have happened had my dad stayed in the faith and raised me in the faith right and this that he would

00:05:57.120 be punished for asking these technical questions was a really hard thing for for him to take like he

00:06:03.340 couldn't stand following a tradition that would punish him for asking questions like this and and that's

00:06:10.140 what had him turn away from it and this was really interesting to me for a couple reasons right

00:06:15.560 like if i think about it as us from a cultural group you know if we have a group of 20 kids and one of

00:06:21.460 them is just incessantly demanding answers to this like very niggly like technical question

00:06:27.900 that will be our golden child yeah and it's standing up to authority to do this to me that one person is

00:06:35.280 worth the other 19 kids in the bedroom combined if i had a religion and i was trying to like convert

00:06:39.960 people into it i would spend extra attention to that person and this is when we talk about like

00:06:44.920 genetic selection effects and stuff like that within religious traditions this is how you can get a

00:06:48.560 genetic selection effect but we'll talk about this later in like personalities and stuff like that

00:06:53.080 but the the next thing is is is it's like well then there's lots of iterations of christianity

00:06:59.760 that don't take a realism stance to the noah's ark story right the problem here is the iterations of

00:07:08.620 christianity that typically loosen interpretations around what is in the bible you know they start

00:07:15.440 saying oh this is all just metaphor or whatever they also loosen interpretations around morality and

00:07:21.900 moral rules and moral restrictions yeah and what i want is an iteration of christianity that it contains

00:07:29.380 a lot of the the rules and framings that are useful for living a good life but is also compatible

00:07:37.320 with an extreme level of skepticism an extreme level of of picking apart these stories and also of

00:07:45.000 of of you know sort of unrestrained scientific research and questioning and and i feel like this

00:07:52.700 is necessary if we're getting to the stars like like absolutely necessary from the the the biological

00:07:59.320 perspective and that it appears that we really need religion or some religious structure to stay

00:08:03.700 psychologically healthy and from the carrying on our ancestral traditions you know into space into

00:08:12.000 the interstellar empire that humankind ends up or we aim for humankind to end up creating um

00:08:18.560 and and and so that's really what we're attempting to do here and it may turn out like a person may come to us

00:08:26.880 and they may be like the reason why when you start loosening the slack in this one area it ends up

00:08:33.240 loosening all the slack that's just a truism of religion you can't you can't and i'm like maybe

00:08:39.460 maybe except the problem is is that when i take a real history like obviously i'm very trained in

00:08:46.880 religious history i know a lot of religious traditions i know like i'm i'm very interested in

00:08:52.020 the religious history of america this is something that is deeply interesting to me no one's really

00:08:57.120 tried this before genuinely the closest is probably mormonism typically when people try to adapt a

00:09:04.440 religious tradition to allow for looser interpretations or metaphorical interpretations of

00:09:11.320 the older stories they always go in the loosen everything approach the idea of really tightening in one

00:09:17.760 area but loosening in the other is something that i just haven't seen and so you could say our family

00:09:23.540 is treating itself with an experiment and that's why we're using judaism as a backup and you can see

00:09:28.100 the video on why we're using judaism as a backup to this experiment but i actually have a lot of

00:09:31.460 confidence the experiment will work and now finally you know to go into this a person might say well

00:09:35.640 what do you mean like everything about the religion you created it's it's completely like this is

00:09:40.340 just what's logically necessary for the best interest of our species and and for the best health of

00:09:45.760 your kid and it's like yes yes actually and i i do believe it right but i think if it was well

00:09:52.920 constructed i would believe it you know that's the way rituals work you do rituals we're pre-programmed

00:09:57.460 to believe these religions so i put this out and i believe it but well but i mean i think it's also

00:10:01.920 believable because it's it was also based on our best understanding of reality from what we've learned

00:10:10.900 about science physics psychology etc so yeah and now a lot of people are like come on you guys

00:10:16.980 that's the silliest thing ever are you actually saying that a secular tradition about a metaphysical

00:10:23.040 entity that people believe was in the best interest of kids could really do well in a world like our

00:10:29.700 world today and it's like santa like santa is mopping up the old traditions in terms of its

00:10:37.920 intergenerational fidelity and growth in mindshare these days like we have seen that this works but

00:10:44.740 i also think that it's something that we are really dedicated to and actually believe and sometimes when

00:10:48.780 people talk to me they're like wait you really believe this stuff don't you i can never tell

00:10:52.040 and there was this one book that you had me read while you were writing the pragmatist guide to

00:10:55.900 crafting religion about faith and about religion that was written by an anthropologist who went into many

00:11:01.940 different obscure cultures and like tribal systems and asked them lots of questions about their faith

00:11:07.840 watched them practice their faiths and maybe this is because it was very close to what you would call

00:11:14.040 a super soft religion or like you know that kind where you just sort of go back to like you know

00:11:18.480 reciting a spell so that your usb cord goes in the right way the first time right like just the really

00:11:23.720 weird sort of default intuitive religion but one thing that was really interesting that she observed

00:11:30.440 was that people would both could both and do both have faith and not have faith so she would be

00:11:40.240 like what in in you know the same day this man at the same day she would ask do you believe in ghosts

00:11:44.860 and they'd be like obviously not and then like you know in the evening something like oh i just saw a

00:11:49.600 ghost you know you know i'm praying to this ghost for this and she's like what like and so it was very

00:11:55.620 context based and the the faith would come in the in certain settings or when it was useful or when it

00:12:02.960 was needed i also saw this a little bit in japan like just sort of like spending extended time with

00:12:10.020 families that hosted me and whatnot where like i don't think buddhism and shinto necessarily are like

00:12:18.080 seamlessly combinable as religions right like logically for all the rules etc but like many many many

00:12:25.420 japanese hold both shinto and buddhism you go to shinto when your baby's born and you go to like

00:12:31.440 the buddhist thing when someone dies like there's just like you choose this for this and this for

00:12:35.980 this and you sort of pick and choose which is kind of indexy right where you're like let's just combine

00:12:40.100 our favorite things from both of these religions and i think in the moment they fully believe each i had

00:12:47.480 a friend when i was a kid named nicholas who was raised as well at one point my mom explained to me in front

00:12:53.880 of him that he was raised half jewish and half christian and he's like no i'm all jewish and i'm

00:12:59.580 all christian and he was like very serious about this and i do i do kind of think that that's somewhat

00:13:05.980 possible because i think that only a certain strain of humanity or certain like iq level or like genetic

00:13:11.500 tendency level is going to really struggle with that logical logical consistency nonsense like the rest are

00:13:17.940 able to be very contextual about how and when they believe and i believe that there's a significant

00:13:22.800 amount of both anecdotal and more systematically research documentation supporting that i think

00:13:27.780 this study that simone mentioned here is actually really important to understanding how we relate

00:13:32.700 to religion and how our religion is constructed we both 100 believe our religion is true but also

00:13:40.980 100 believe that it's something that we artificially constructed because it was psychologically

00:13:46.660 useful to us and our family and a lot of people will look at this and they'll be like that

00:13:52.540 that can't be true you can't have a religion where both the secular theory of the religion exists

00:13:59.160 overlapping the theistic interpretation of the religion and it's like well yes you can and

00:14:05.660 historically it was actually pretty common for people to have these overlapping frameworks about

00:14:12.200 belief because so we'll get to that in a second but let's go into it so what i wanted to ask you to

00:14:17.220 start simone sort of let's take an inventory why are the various reasons that you think people

00:14:22.800 leave religious traditions intergenerationally these days okay so there's what you pointed out

00:14:29.700 where there's just like logical inconsistencies they can't deal with another one where i watched a

00:14:34.660 friend lose hold on before you go further i want to pull at this logical inconsistency thing because

00:14:38.900 they fall into two categories okay i think noah's ark is a really good example of doing this

00:14:43.060 so there's two ways because as we go through each of these like let's talk about them a little bit

00:14:47.100 right so logical inconsistencies i think is a real one the problem is is that when people try to fix

00:14:53.200 the logical inconsistencies there's three routes they go down and they're all pretty bad route number

00:14:59.000 one is just to deny that there's any inconsistency and and say that like somehow we don't understand it

00:15:04.280 or there was a miracle involved in this that wasn't particularly noted in the bible like maybe noah's

00:15:10.100 ark really did have all the full animal sizes in the world on it and just like somehow it worked

00:15:14.620 because magic except that's not really talked about like they don't talk about the magic like

00:15:19.780 like so it just doesn't seem plausible to me that that you're getting magic there but like

00:15:24.080 it's not mentioned in the story that they were using all this magic to do this yeah there's also a

00:15:28.900 bunch of other weird things about noah's ark like apparently god wasn't pissed at any

00:15:33.560 seaborne mammals or fish or bacteria we'll get to that in a second so the next problem i don't want

00:15:42.180 to get into all the problems with the noah's ark story yeah one is is they try to create like a

00:15:46.240 science-y explanation right like maybe it was all baby animals or maybe it was as i've heard more

00:15:54.580 recently maybe it was a total world flood but like he took the dna from all the animals and went to

00:15:58.740 space or maybe i'm just picturing like all the really cute like cutest noah's ark ever everything

00:16:05.100 yeah but these feel to me like like if you're an outsider and you're like doubting a religion or

00:16:10.380 you're trying to be convinced of a religion they feel like sophistry and very weak sophistry it feels

00:16:16.360 like you're really trying it's like okay but if that was the story then the bible would have said

00:16:20.900 baby animals it doesn't say baby animals like you're adding things that make it plausible because we

00:16:27.420 know stuff now that they didn't know then the final answer which i really hate is to say that

00:16:32.500 this is all metaphors which i also also just by the way the baby animals thing wouldn't do given the

00:16:37.980 duration of the flood because they would have most of them would have grown to like close to full size

00:16:44.200 by the time it was over so so so the the the answer that we would come up with with our tradition

00:16:49.500 for our kids to this is that this was a full revelation from the period of people of that time period

00:16:55.040 like what they were capable of understanding and if you look at when the noah's ark story was delivered

00:16:59.640 you know you are looking at like bronze age civilization you look at these people level of

00:17:05.920 education and understanding of the world and there was probably something that was trying to be or that

00:17:11.140 needed to be conveyed by this story and it was a direct real revelation insofar as we were able to

00:17:16.420 understand it yeah like you can kind of picture almost like imagine someone came from the future

00:17:21.000 but then had to explain this in like layman's terms to people of that time and eventually like i can

00:17:29.000 imagine the person first tells the truth and then like tries to like dumb it down and then finally

00:17:33.840 they're like okay okay okay imagine god's really mad and so he he tells this one guy to build a boat

00:17:40.220 and put all the animals on the boat and then like he floods the earth to get rid of everything else

00:17:44.920 like but you can just imagine like someone getting increasingly well no that's what i basically think god did

00:17:49.480 like he talked to us like we were idiotic children yeah and that was the way he handled it but then

00:17:54.640 okay go to the next why did what's the next reason people leave yeah so there's there's a couple people

00:17:58.500 that i know or that you and i know who to a certain extent left their religion because they really

00:18:06.060 didn't like the way that certain groups and specifically certain groups that they were members of

00:18:11.260 like women were treated by it and like sort of what the the teachings were about women

00:18:15.560 specifically in this case in the two cases i'm thinking of it was like well women you know sort

00:18:21.340 of kind of don't belong in leadership positions and they belong you're thinking of mormons right the

00:18:26.400 people who you're thinking of right i'm thinking of mormons and other conservative christians okay

00:18:30.580 yeah no it is it is a big problem within our society right now and it's a big problem in that i think

00:18:36.920 that aiming for true equality also causes issues i think another issue here is sexual restrictions

00:18:42.760 that evolved so i'm going to group these into two into the same category sexual restrictions and

00:18:48.240 traditions that evolved was in religions because they helped them compete in an intergenerational

00:18:52.340 context historically but now are counterproductive and really just lead to bleed so the other thing

00:18:58.520 here i would say is like gay rights and gay marriage within traditions if you look at god i don't

00:19:03.680 find the guy's channel when i'm doing this the guy who does videos on us occasionally and we're

00:19:07.440 going to have on our channel soon paul vanderclade yeah paul vanderclade he's done a number of

00:19:11.420 videos on fights within the church and he's from the reform christian church which is a calvinist

00:19:17.220 church actually pretty similar to the the iterations of christianity that we came from and the church

00:19:21.760 right now is continually having rifts and splits over gay marriage and you see this across christian

00:19:29.020 traditions today it's actually a really really easy tactic that progressives can use to pull people

00:19:34.480 out of religious traditions because it feels arbitrary and when you talk to religious people you're like

00:19:40.440 why is this bad and they're like because it's sin because it's not the way humans were meant to work

00:19:47.020 and it's like well it just feels really capricious and evil that god would then make some humans

00:19:52.880 arbitrarily more attracted to the same gender like why would he do that and and i know people who are

00:19:59.200 gay and they seem perfectly happy and if you actually look at studies that have been done on gay

00:20:03.200 people adopting kids those kids actually do better than the kids in straight families now the reason for

00:20:07.940 that is almost certainly because those families have been much much more vetted than straight families

00:20:12.320 but it's it's still just like a truism of the studies that have been the the good studies that

00:20:17.540 have been done so far um so the the there's sort of a few problems that are overlapping here so the

00:20:24.440 question first is is why did religions take these perspectives if you take our world view of this

00:20:29.540 right they took these perspectives because the iterations of them that took these perspectives in a

00:20:33.440 historic pre-birth control context had more kids than the iterations that didn't so you know when

00:20:40.260 they said uh don't be gay when they said don't have sex with animals when they said don't have sex with

00:20:46.640 your wife when she's menstruating when they said don't engage in pornography when they said you know

00:20:51.680 never masturbate outside of sex all of these things are really just meant to increase the rate

00:20:56.280 of reproductive sex individuals are having even if that wasn't like why the individual who came up with

00:21:01.900 them came up with them there have been iterations of these traditional religious systems that didn't

00:21:06.660 have these stipulations to them but they were out competed by the ones that did have these

00:21:11.660 stipulations because the ones that did have these stipulations had higher fertility rates and the

00:21:16.780 fertility rates matter so much in terms of which religions ended up in which iterations of which

00:21:21.940 religions ended up dominating and which ones didn't end up dominating the problem is in a modern context

00:21:27.600 a lot of these stipulations are extremely counterproductive as we continually point out

00:21:33.780 there's been great studies done on levels of religiosity and porn consumption the more the porn

00:21:38.180 is is like banned in a region from a social context when it's not like actually illegal the more people in

00:21:44.080 that region will consume porn it like has the exact opposite effect you would want um with gay

00:21:49.480 individuals you're not really increasing birth rates that much anymore by by banning this and yet you're

00:21:55.180 leading to like really high church division by banning this um and when we get to a world of

00:22:01.100 artificial wombs and stuff like that it becomes almost irrelevant from a fertility rate perspective

00:22:04.900 and then you've got the problem of women and women's rights and everything like that and why women i mean

00:22:11.380 women and men have a level of sexual dimorphism to them right and it is true that it seems that the

00:22:19.240 cultural groups that put men in charge like if you go historically like way back it seems much more

00:22:24.540 common in these early societies when you're talking about like the true diversity of humanity to have

00:22:28.760 some matriarchal societies and some patriarchal societies the patriarchal societies outcompeted

00:22:34.400 the matriarchal societies i mean that's just what we see that's why most of the historic surviving

00:22:39.980 societies in the world are patriarchal societies so having a patriarchal mindset does seem to confer

00:22:45.960 some advantages however i also think it has disadvantages in terms of the productivity of

00:22:52.560 a society and by looping one perspective on reality i mean as humans we get this cool thing

00:22:57.460 like people are often like wouldn't it be cool if we got to have like neander saws here who could see

00:23:01.460 the world from a totally different but like kind of aligned perspective and i'm like but we kind of

00:23:05.760 get that with genders and and not fully utilizing the intellectual capacity of one gender especially in a

00:23:10.980 world where manual labor isn't that useful anymore and and household labor isn't that useful anymore

00:23:16.120 you're you're leaving a lot on the table when you do that and so i don't know if it makes the same

00:23:21.400 sense to to build this sort of restriction what are your thoughts i have and maybe an even more tempered

00:23:27.100 view i you know a lot of the religious traditions around what when men and women should do i think are

00:23:35.520 refined like many of them are built on relative advantages that each gender has right so like

00:23:42.500 that's great but as we know from our research in sexuality and all sorts of other areas with both

00:23:48.800 men and women there are always outliers like there there are some there are some women who are very

00:23:54.100 much more masculine than men and much better suited for men's roles than women's roles there is a subset

00:23:59.660 of men that is way more suited for women's roles than men's roles so i think like just not being so

00:24:04.540 strict about like which role you want to take on you know like women can never serve in the priesthood

00:24:10.300 or like men can never take care of kids is here's the interesting thing i think if you go to a

00:24:16.120 traditionalist religious framework and you start to loosen roles around women in church it ends up

00:24:21.980 loosening a lot of the moral restrictions because when people are following the rules of the traditional

00:24:27.800 religious system and they don't know why it has those rules some of those rules are for like this

00:24:34.240 evolved context and other of those rules are like actually useful rules in terms of of out

00:24:40.100 competing other groups or not sinning or stuff like that i think it's really hard to loosen one of these

00:24:45.880 rules without loosening rules across the board if you don't have some sort of higher order logic for

00:24:51.320 why some rules are loosened and not others hmm um yeah i mean like i don't know when it comes to

00:24:59.520 leadership positions and having perspectives valued i mean i think patriarchal societies

00:25:04.440 seem to be fitter for a good reason but i think that the best system is a patriarchal society that

00:25:12.280 is is built in the way that a true patriarchal society is which is entirely meritocracy

00:25:18.360 you know just the the fittest the smartest the strongest wins and if one of those is a woman

00:25:23.160 fine right like and and i think this is how things have often been throughout history

00:25:27.600 there have been many people in very patriarchal societies who have been strong enough ruthless

00:25:33.340 enough etc to make it work queen elizabeth catherine the great margaret thatcher etc right like they

00:25:38.600 made it work but the rules weren't changed for them so i just want to make it clear that i'm like

00:25:42.420 not fighting for some switch over to the ginocracy with like you know bureaucratic rules and everyone has

00:25:48.860 to listen to everyone else and things like that i think it's just there are some rules that are too hard

00:25:54.040 and fast or like you know your role as a woman is to grow up and marry a man and homeschool your kids

00:26:00.200 which is great for many many many many women but like you're gonna lose some incredible talent if

00:26:06.180 you make that you're going to lose the best women yeah the highest competence highest creativity

00:26:12.520 highest ambition women which are the ones that we would want the most which is also really interesting

00:26:17.540 so so everybody who knows sort of where we're going with a lot of this stuff we are actually

00:26:22.580 specifically trying to build a religious system that is not conflicting with the pre-existing religious

00:26:29.120 systems and that it laps up these types of women who would be kicked out of these systems for

00:26:35.040 being too ambitious or the people who ask too many questions but prevents them from falling all the way

00:26:41.680 to the urban monoculture or the virus so sort of a like we have an audience that we are building this

00:26:47.440 was a was a target for because we think that you know the troublemakers within these religious

00:26:52.320 traditions so the way that we try to tackle this system on both ends from within the religious system

00:26:58.340 we're building is one have an internal hierarchy where the the social order of the hierarchy is a

00:27:06.360 meritocracy but not a bureaucratic meritocracy because bureaucratic meritocracies overvalue the female's

00:27:12.880 perspective whereas if you have a true meritocracy which is measuring somebody's ability

00:27:17.400 to succeed within a real world context which can often be measured by things like efficiency gains

00:27:22.340 which are well measured by how much money someone has earned over their life and how much money of

00:27:26.540 that has gone back into the system these these systems are going to be very good at filtering out

00:27:32.160 a genuine meritocracy which will lead to a system likely where within this type of measuring capacity

00:27:38.760 you're going to get more men but it doesn't prevent the the best of the best women from participating in it

00:27:45.400 and it has a clear reason for how it's sorting people it's sorting them on their ability to succeed

00:27:51.100 within real world scenarios i.e within the the the big game that we're all playing within any sort of

00:27:57.680 capitalistic system um or or adjacent to capitalistic system of resource acquisition the second category is

00:28:05.600 when you're talking about things like like gay trans everything like that if we just focus on the point

00:28:11.400 it's about fertility rate and all other rules flow from that it removes the need to cause full schisms

00:28:19.540 over things like gay acceptance and trans acceptance which would allow for better weathering against one

00:28:26.020 of the core tools that the progressive movement has against religious traditions now a person might

00:28:31.940 rightly point out that this way of motivating higher fertility rates and religious fidelity is going to

00:28:38.140 work significantly less well for less intelligent people or people with less self-control within

00:28:44.580 those communities you can't say okay think about the end goal then act towards that end goal you need

00:28:50.440 to give them simplistic rules like uh you know get them to have more kids by telling them not to

00:28:56.600 masturbate so when they want to relieve themselves they're doing it and not to have sex with your wife

00:29:01.020 when she may not be fertile like she's menstruating or something like that and that is true but you've got to

00:29:06.340 keep in mind the theological end goal of our religion which is focused around intergenerational

00:29:12.720 improvement with the the end state being eventually becoming whatever this entity god is in the distant

00:29:20.360 future what this means for us is that it would be almost sinful to focus on those individuals and thus

00:29:30.160 care for us and thus cares a lot less about really either recruiting or ensuring that those within

00:29:37.900 the faith who have less self-control or less innate intelligence are breeding like we actually almost

00:29:44.340 would want to discourage them from breeding as heavily as the other members of the community

00:29:48.140 so we really don't mind that effect of this whereas other religions are generally more focused on quantity

00:29:56.160 over quality when they're looking at the the way that their religion relates to intergenerational

00:30:02.920 fertility rates so what would you say a next reason you've seen people leave

00:30:06.840 i i think it's maybe this is too much like the other categories but lifestyle like they're just

00:30:13.800 not into that kind of lifestyle like stylistically i've never seen somebody leave for this i hear a lot

00:30:20.240 of people from traditions that think that people leave for this reason but i haven't seen it myself

00:30:24.680 i have not seen somebody leave a tradition because of the rules except for in so far as how those

00:30:30.200 rules look immoral i.e. preventing this otherwise qualified person from being in this position

00:30:36.200 or prevent this otherwise loving couple from wanting to marry rules like actually very interesting

00:30:42.280 like bans on pornography bans on premarital sex stuff like that what i see those rules doing is people

00:30:47.800 just break them and then stay in the tradition no it's true they do not push people out of the

00:30:52.440 tradition they they people break them they may have premarital sex without the amount of contraception

00:30:58.120 they might otherwise use or something like that or they might have more premarital sex as we pointed

00:31:02.920 out you know sex education delays the incidence of first sexual and activity so uh you know counterproductive

00:31:10.200 but it doesn't actually push people out of religions genuinely and i watch tons and tons and tons of ex-religious

00:31:17.160 content i can't even think of a single incident of this not one i have ever seen i have seen people

00:31:24.840 talk about how happy they were about not having to follow these rules after leaving a tradition after

00:31:31.400 some area of logical inconsistency pushed them out of the tradition like they're like oh this

00:31:36.440 logically just doesn't make sense to me or there was this contradiction here and here or higher

00:31:42.600 reps within my movement we're doing this really unethical thing that's another thing that pushes

00:31:46.200 people out often which we can get to um yeah yeah yeah yeah and that happens a lot in like smaller

00:31:50.440 religions where like a cult leader starts buying too many bentley's and poisoning people yeah yeah

00:31:55.080 that's that's where that happens but the the in fact i almost get the impression when i hear people

00:32:00.680 talking about like all of the cool stuff they can do now that they couldn't do in their religion

00:32:04.920 i get sort of a cringe crying thing like it you know that meme where it almost feels like they're not

00:32:11.160 really happy with all the new things they're doing but there's a level of cognitive dissonance

00:32:15.480 with not actually feeling that much better once they've left the tradition and so they try to

00:32:20.200 justify it as being a good decision through talking about all of these new things they can do now

00:32:26.840 but i've never heard of it as an inciting factor although although i and i will point out here i have

00:32:32.840 heard as an inciting factor the individual you know where you will get like i wanted to do something

00:32:39.080 and this was the inciting factor was specifically things where they can't logically understand why

00:32:45.080 it's being banned so this is not something like it's something like the gay thing right or the you

00:32:51.880 know or the women in church thing like they're competent why can't they have these positions

00:32:57.800 so then this comes to the the next point that i wanted to really go over which is a lot of the

00:33:02.600 individual logical problems that people end up stumbling upon was in religious traditions

00:33:08.200 that end up causing people to deconvert so first i call it the good god problem right the good god

00:33:16.920 problem we've talked about it before there's a lot of argumentation around it which is how can you have

00:33:21.960 an all-powerful god who is good all good as well and yet have the world that we live in today

00:33:28.360 i think that there's an easy solution to this and it's the one that we adapt which is to just say well

00:33:33.080 he's not a good god not in the way that we mean good he might have some higher order understanding

00:33:37.480 of good that we don't fully understand but it is patently clear to me like you can't say that oh

00:33:43.160 the suffering in the world happens because of decisions that humans make because a lot of

00:33:46.840 suffering the world is very obviously happening outside of the decisions that humans and it's

00:33:50.600 pointless and it's pointless yeah you you like you could say oh butterfly effect and stuff like that and

00:33:57.400 it's like yeah well you didn't need to set up the system this way it's just all of the little like

00:34:03.080 niggly things you do to try to get out of this problem are one just not necessary you can just say

00:34:09.160 well then it's not an all-good god and two if i'm actually basing this tradition on like the western

00:34:16.200 canon history the judeo-christian tree i i think even just from the text it's pretty hard to argue

00:34:23.080 that like the god of the old testament is a good entity from the way that we as humans mean good

00:34:30.040 when we talk about good in the vernacular yeah so problem number one that's how we try to get around

00:34:35.560 that in terms of something that pulls people out of religions problem number two which is one we

00:34:39.960 mentioned a lot but it is a much bigger problem than people believe is that you cannot have a

00:34:45.880 universalizing religion that contains the possibility of miracles and have it start locally

00:34:52.840 so let me explain what i mean by this right christianity has a big problem with this

00:34:59.480 christianity most iterations of christianity are supposed to apply to every human in the world

00:35:03.880 it is a revelation that is of total utility to every human in the world because it was complete when it was

00:35:08.600 made but the problem is is that it took so long to reach most of the world and a person might be like

00:35:15.320 yeah but like what else was supposed to happen and this is why i say you can't have miracles in these

00:35:19.400 traditions jesus is able to do things like raise people from the dead and yet he's not able to

00:35:24.360 like warp to a few different locations on the world just to slow to speed up the speed that it's

00:35:29.960 it's spreading i mean at least do you know one revelation in east asia one revelation in like

00:35:35.400 the british isles and one revolution yeah like why why not on tour why not even an attempt to go on tour

00:35:42.920 right like this is all made slightly worse by the fact that jesus died fairly young and this was a

00:35:50.520 death that he had preconceptions of he knew this was going to happen he knew he was going to die and

00:35:55.880 had at least some control over where and how it happened because he made himself the sacrifice which means

00:36:04.120 that he could have delayed that for another 25 years or so so that he could get on like a boat and go to

00:36:11.080 china and go to some other far parts of where boats could take you back then maybe south africa and and

00:36:17.720 then created seeds of christianity in those two places before coming back and getting martyred but

00:36:24.440 he didn't why why was this a completely localized revelation when it didn't need to be and jesus had

00:36:32.520 the power to perform miracles which could have prevented this from happening given what happens to people's

00:36:38.840 souls who don't have jesus christ within most christian theologies or do not know jesus christ

00:36:45.160 within most christian theologies and the the answer that that that i have i've never heard a compelling

00:36:52.280 answer to this mormons have the best answer which is to say he did go on tour we just didn't hear about

00:36:56.440 it and i'm like well at least they're trying but there's a number of other logical problems that come

00:37:00.840 from the mormon tradition which which make it not a a great answer which specifically comes from the

00:37:07.560 canonization of of future prophets they're like oh yeah we can have future prophets but then they

00:37:11.720 canonize some of the future prophets while they're still alive which leads to that you're not getting

00:37:15.720 a lot of time to vet what they're saying to make sure it's not going to have huge contradictions in it

00:37:20.040 like you know the the the prophet who said if evolution is true mormonism is false that's the

00:37:26.040 problem what undo undo undo yeah so but but keep it on within the mormon tradition is not that much of

00:37:34.360 a problem because future prophets can override past prophets which you don't have in a lot of

00:37:38.840 traditions but to me there's some other problems with doing that that we'll get to um

00:37:45.560 the the jews fix this problem by the way and we were like oh yeah we like the jewish system for

00:37:49.480 this and the calvinist system problem by saying it's not a universalist tradition it's not meant

00:37:54.360 for everyone therefore it's very easy to say oh that's why he didn't perform a miracle to deliver

00:37:58.760 it to more people faster and the way that we solve this more broadly is we're like actually everyone

00:38:03.080 always had access to the true revelation that was meant for their people in so far as they follow

00:38:07.640 their traditions in sort of a conservative iteration see our video on the tesseract god for how we get

00:38:12.360 around this problem we also fix the multiple face problem with this and the multiple face problem

00:38:18.200 is a much bigger problem than a lot of practicing christians seem to realize it is if you are

00:38:24.120 trying to convert somebody who is an outsider to christianity this is the problem of like a lot of

00:38:30.040 their arguments against atheism are arguments against atheism more broadly but that are not

00:38:35.720 very compelling for just go to their tradition versus other traditions and we have a few systems

00:38:42.680 that we've used to attempt to get around this one is the tesseract god concept to be like oh these

00:38:46.600 multiple christian traditions are actually full iterations and full revelations but then we also

00:38:51.720 use our profit system to get around this so our profit system is to say well the you determining

00:38:58.200 which messages are from god to you is a democratized thing with a few stipulations around this so we say

00:39:05.560 any individual can decide by by prayerfully examining evidence and and by evidence you know we're looking at

00:39:13.000 things that can't easily be faked like the person one predicted future events or like verifiable

00:39:18.360 miracles happened around them you can use these individuals are meant to communicate some

00:39:23.640 information to you they might be only to communicate information to you this also fix the textual

00:39:28.600 inconsistency problem so for example people who are familiar with like texture textual differences in

00:39:33.960 biblical traditions the number of the beast was in different traditions of some old text it looks like

00:39:39.800 may have actually been 616 or believed to be 616 throughout a large portion of the christian world

00:39:46.440 what we would say is well actually both iterations are completely true and the 616 was meant to be read

00:39:53.480 by somebody within the region or maybe a number of somebodies within the region that that was read right

00:40:00.840 um so that is that is how we get around that problem is by democratizing it now this leads to

00:40:07.880 another problem if you allow for the possibility of future prophets then you have the problem of

00:40:13.960 a person being able to say i'm a prophet follow me right listen to everything i do and it can become

00:40:19.400 very culty so the way you get around this is you make a rule basically all prophets have to be dead

00:40:26.520 that's just a rule you cannot say that someone is a prophet and you should not look for prophetic

00:40:31.400 wisdom from an individual who's not dead that is just not the way god communicates god will only

00:40:36.280 communicate through dead prophets now this also helps to prevent prophet profiteering whereby you

00:40:41.320 have someone start to exploit followers in ways that are really bad and selfish yeah so then the

00:40:49.800 next problem you have is science inconsistency and and the big problem here is the teleological and

00:40:56.360 ontological arguments which people think are good religious arguments but they're actually really

00:41:01.080 bad religious arguments and they kind of argue against religion in a way and they're both

00:41:05.320 solved and removed questioning here from people who so first let's talk about science inconsistency

00:41:10.280 because this is a bigger problem for christianity than christians like to pretend so christians will

00:41:13.960 be like look at all of the great things that we the western tradition have accomplished in the past you know

00:41:21.400 200 years right and what they are carefully ignoring here is that most of the most important scientists in

00:41:29.400 the past 200 years or i'd say at least 100 years if they were born within the judeo-christian tree left

00:41:35.800 the judeo-christian tree either during their period of most productive work or at least before they died

00:41:41.240 so you don't really get to like clearly there's a problem here for whatever reason your most productive

00:41:46.920 scientists are leaving the tradition this is a big problem and and it's a problem with science and

00:41:52.600 inconsistencies of the noah's ark variety that we were talking about we get around these with the the

00:41:58.360 you know one the individual revelation problem but two the so when i talked about the mass problems

00:42:04.280 i'll get to the ontological and teleological arguments in just a second but the the future

00:42:09.720 god problem where we're like okay in a million years in a hundred thousand years if we're still alive

00:42:13.880 would you say our descendants are more like a god than a man consistent was our existing science

00:42:18.840 consistent with our existing understanding of the world to say they would be more like a man

00:42:23.400 than the way we would conceive a god is just not consistent with that so to argue against this

00:42:29.000 perspective really the only argument you can make is time travel is impossible or or influencing the

00:42:35.160 timeline is impossible which is a pretty bold claim to make when like i would just be like well how

00:42:43.480 do you know that like you have no more claim to knowing that than i have to knowing that it is possible

00:42:48.360 and so it makes arguing against this religion from a scientific perspective

00:42:53.560 pretty difficult unless we get some like hard scientific understanding in the future

00:42:58.440 that definitely 100 there is no way that you could manipulate the timeline but that would rely

00:43:05.320 on a full and complete understanding of physics which i don't know how close we are to being at yet

00:43:10.600 and a full and complete understanding of physics which rules that out which i don't think it looks

00:43:14.840 like if the direction physics is going like when you look at a lot of quantum stuff and stuff like

00:43:18.840 that it actually looks like future entities likely can if we're sort of extrapolating into the future of

00:43:25.400 physical understanding of the universe can probably influence events in the past now let's get to the

00:43:30.200 ontological and teleological arguments so the ontological argument is the argument against

00:43:35.000 acs where they're like okay well what created the universe then which in the atheist mind is of

00:43:39.000 course well then what created god then right and then god people like well we don't have to answer that

00:43:42.360 question because god's special and you're exempt from having to answer that question and then the

00:43:46.040 atheist is like well that's very uncompelling to me if you're making me answer that question but you

00:43:50.280 say you don't have to answer that question because i could just say well the universe has existed in

00:43:53.960 an endless cycle of existence and non-existence and who's to say the universe is the type of thing

00:43:57.240 that needs to start you know you could have like a big bang and a big crunch a big bang and a big

00:44:00.360 crunch right we solve both of these problems by saying that the universe did potentially have

00:44:04.840 a beginning you can see our what's behind the fabric of reality video on this we talk about this a few

00:44:09.000 times i don't want to go over the full argument here but basically it's mass exists outside of

00:44:14.520 the universe things that are described by mass exist as graphical equations of those things so

00:44:19.320 you don't need to actually be playing them and so anything that can be described by an equation exists

00:44:24.600 as an emergent property of that equation if that didn't make a lot of sense in the way i just explained

00:44:28.200 it just watch our video our full video on what's behind the fabric of reality on on this particular

00:44:32.920 topic i figure it's probably worse taking a few minutes just to give a fuller explanation of how

00:44:37.400 this model for reality works because it is the model for reality that i have seen that takes the

00:44:42.360 fewest presuppositions and the few presuppositions it does take seem intuitively true to me the first

00:44:50.600 is that two things and two things is always four things whatever reality you're in yes you can get

00:44:57.800 things like non-euclidean geometry but mass broadly holds constant across all realities and is therefore

00:45:05.320 a thing that exists outside of realities two that if you have an equation like a graphical equation

00:45:13.480 the line that that equation is representing exists outside of that equation as an emergent property of

00:45:20.360 that equation even before i graph that line on something like a piece of paper that equation is in a way

00:45:27.880 that line finally that our reality can be described by a single or set of mathematical equations e.g. the laws of

00:45:38.040 physics and the way things interact was in our reality can be defined by a single mathematical equation if

00:45:45.240 i only hold those three things to be true that means that our universe must exist like even if a material universe

00:45:53.960 exists in the way that we think our universe exists with you know atoms and everything like that

00:45:58.920 alongside that universe a separate graphical representation of the mathematical equation that

00:46:04.280 described how those things interacted must also exist and therefore via occam's razor we don't need to

00:46:11.000 assume that the physical reality that we believe exists exists and so this this model argues that

00:46:18.520 because our universe can be described by a single equation and all equations exist outside of time

00:46:24.040 and all universes this universe would exist no matter what is a graphical representation of that

00:46:28.760 equation and all universes that can be described by a single equation exist this is also why our

00:46:36.360 understanding of time is kind of funny because we see time as just one variable in this equation and not a

00:46:43.560 particularly important or immutable variable within this equation all moments of time exist simultaneously

00:46:51.720 as simply variable points within this graphical representation i'd also note here that this way of

00:46:58.120 framing reality means that we no longer need to answer the question why does the universe exist the

00:47:04.200 universe must exist if math exists instead we need to answer the question what brought math into existence or

00:47:11.160 why does math exist asking why math always exists as an inherently true thing feels a lot closer to

00:47:18.600 the type of thing that you don't really need to prove in the same way that arguing well god exists as an

00:47:24.360 always inherently true thing does or at least seems like an easier presupposition to me than an all-knowing

00:47:31.880 sentient entity that is infinitely complex versus the simplicity of math but it solves a few problems

00:47:38.440 it solves the ontological problem and it solves the the teleological problem it also solves the what

00:47:44.520 happens if we're in a simulation problem in that it makes a universe that is being run within a simulation

00:47:51.640 functionally uh from a moral standpoint position identical to a universe that is not in a simulation

00:47:59.000 again watch the video on what's behind the fabric of reality if you want to learn more about this

00:48:03.240 the teleological problem is like how did we happen to be in a universe that had these exact

00:48:08.280 laws of physics play out exactly as they did like you needed numbers to be so precise now a lot of

00:48:13.560 people fix this with the anthropic principle it's like well why did humans evolve on a planet with

00:48:17.720 water when we needed water well we wouldn't have evolved on any other planets we wouldn't be asking

00:48:21.080 the question if we didn't have water but then it's like yeah but it is kind of weird that the universe

00:48:25.160 happened to be created this way but if you believe this math iteration of why reality exists well

00:48:31.080 everything that could be described by an equation exists so there are parallel universes all the

00:48:37.240 the other universes where humans wouldn't exist to be asking this question also exist and people

00:48:42.600 aren't asking this question and that's why we're not in one of those universes any anything you want

00:48:47.000 to add to this simone because i've been talking ranting for a while no i mean hold on we got some

00:48:54.600 some more ones here that are actually pretty important okay another one is historicity historicity

00:49:00.280 is i think a bigger problem for strict christian interpretations than if you haven't left christian

00:49:05.320 circles you're really going to be aware of we're building out a school system right now for kids

00:49:09.560 right and i want that school system to be usable by people who have strict christian interpretations

00:49:14.280 because we want to be an ally to these groups we want to relieve them of their troublesome members

00:49:19.720 you know if if that's a problem for them but we also want to protect them from the virus because i

00:49:24.680 think that they we could be wrong about creating this tradition and if we are then they're probably the only

00:49:30.280 hope we have of our species seeing the stars and and achieving what we're meant to achieve at the

00:49:35.160 species at least what what you and i believe so uh the in this this tree we have a certain marking

00:49:43.000 for nodes like like pieces mastery levels that are associated with things that i think could get

00:49:50.840 really strict christian interpretations of reality mad at us for and if you buy it and you click the i don't

00:49:56.520 want any of these things in here it like just deletes all those nodes from the tree the problem is is it

00:50:01.560 pretty much just delete everything around jesus's life to except for the stuff that's just in the bible

00:50:08.360 to everything at the great schism like all of that stuff is just like thanos when you do this because

00:50:14.760 if you talk and you look into a lot of this stuff you know he wasn't the only jewish miracle worker

00:50:20.600 in the the the what is now israel in that time period you know there were a number of others

00:50:26.680 when you're talking about like honi the circle drawer or hania bendoza or someone bar yahi and it's

00:50:32.840 it's one of the things where it's like he just doesn't seem that particularly remarkable outside of

00:50:38.840 the impact he has had on history when you compare him with other well-known miracle workers of the time

00:50:44.840 period and but but then you say well he performed more miracles than them and it's like yeah well we have

00:50:50.040 a lot more text on him we only have the names of a few miracles that these other people produced

00:50:54.760 but and the knowledge that he was seen as similar to them in some texts right such a lesson about you

00:51:00.760 know the importance of marketing and investigating right i'm forced to point all of this out because

00:51:06.040 a lot of people mistakenly believe that jesus's miracles or people purporting to have seen jesus's

00:51:13.720 miracles is evidence of jesus's divinity when miracle workers during that time period and at

00:51:20.840 that part of history were actually fairly common and the list i gave was not even exhaustive you know

00:51:26.760 you also have individuals like apollonius of tiana who was a greek philosopher who lived in the first

00:51:32.680 century a.d and was seen performing miraculous deeds having supernatural powers and who raised people from

00:51:39.080 the dead even if you're just constraining your knowledge of this to the bible you have individuals

00:51:44.600 like simon magus who the bible talks of as a sorcerer somebody with magical powers now of course

00:51:50.920 he tries to buy jesus's magical powers which is where the term simony comes from but it shows that

00:51:55.880 even when he a sorcerer saw jesus's magical powers he was like oh it's another magician i should buy these

00:52:02.600 so that is the way that jesus's powers came off to professional somatological performers of his

00:52:09.320 own time period even was in the context of the bible i should also point out the virgin birth thing is

00:52:15.240 also not particularly unique even in the united states today 0.8 percent of women who give birth

00:52:21.560 claim to be virgins now what's interesting is i have to take things out like you know when we take out

00:52:27.800 this sort of stuff or what's going on in in history during this time period from our courses

00:52:33.720 that go to strict christian households you might be like well why would you do that if they know

00:52:37.640 from the bible that individuals like simon magus existed and it's well because some strict christian

00:52:43.960 theology finds ways to gloss around this or to not mention this and it is kind of sad to me because i

00:52:50.360 think it's actually more powerful to say that jesus is set apart and i believe he has set apart

00:52:57.480 not because of his miracles but because of his prophecy but that is you know neither here nor

00:53:03.720 there but from our perspective because an individual's efficacy as a prophet is determined

00:53:11.240 by the impact they have on history those people are next to irrelevant it solves the historicity problem

00:53:17.400 for us yeah and then the the the final problem i wanted well the irrelevant rules problem that we

00:53:23.880 we talk about a bit here but then this has a another really important thing that we really wanted to

00:53:29.960 work into this which was we wanted to structure the religious tradition in a way where individuals who

00:53:36.920 are completely atheistic could live and work within it going all the way up to individuals who are much

00:53:44.040 more like actually believing it um so it needed to have interpretations that work for both of those

00:53:52.600 and then it also needed to have interpretations that work for children and adults and and dumb people

00:53:59.000 and smart people and this is really important because if you look at pretty much all the successful

00:54:03.560 traditions they do this right like totally uh you know a child who sees god is like existing on a cloud

00:54:11.400 and like an old guy with a beard and basically they're thinking of you know an interpretation

00:54:16.840 of zeus really but but certainly not the christian god but it's it's the way that we explain these

00:54:22.200 stories to children you know some people make fun of us they're like what you guys are taking like

00:54:26.680 actual like warhammer 40k stuff and just explaining to your kids that's how your demon you know world

00:54:32.760 works works and it's like what and i'm like well okay you're a christian do you believe in like a red

00:54:38.040 devil with like hooves and horns that is not from the bible that is all extra biblical fan fiction

00:54:44.520 a lot of religions do this and the reason why like you don't throw out that interpretation of the

00:54:49.800 devil is because it's iconic and it's good and it helps get across certain lessons and we've had

00:54:53.880 different interpretations of the devil throughout time like the devil at the crossroads who is you

00:54:58.520 know maybe making deals or playing a fiddle or something like that right like these were relevant

00:55:03.960 to convey certain concepts to people of those periods around like con men and other sorts of

00:55:09.720 swindle men that were around them and not deleterious to the religious tradition so someone i want you to

00:55:16.360 talk a bit about how our tradition is sort of built for kids and stupid people like what did that look like

00:55:22.600 for us i mean a lot of it looks like and we've been discussing this internally forever holidays because

00:55:29.400 that's how so many people primarily relate to religion people always talk about like well what

00:55:35.640 kind of christian slash jew are you like do you won't do you go to church every single day week or are

00:55:41.560 you only there for like easter or christmas or like these special holidays and that's i think where we

00:55:47.880 decided to start when it came to building traditions because it's the holidays that people show up for

00:55:53.160 especially if they follow the right holiday criteria which include things like being super

00:55:58.680 photographable and and really fun and very kid-friendly often involving gifts often involving

00:56:04.280 fun decorating schemes often involving fun meals that kind of thing and so that's how we for our

00:56:09.480 upcoming holiday the future police right yeah yeah so we have the future police which is we will also

00:56:15.960 call like among adults the agents of provenance in our religion steal things from our children that

00:56:22.440 are sort of addictive skinner box like devices or toys the audience knows about this tradition

00:56:27.320 talk about what they look like like the way that we portray them to our kids so with future day the

00:56:32.920 the vision of the future police that our kids are normalizing around is more like stormtroopers or

00:56:38.920 robocop and not so much like this very amorphous could not you know we can't even fathom more like what

00:56:45.880 one would read had described where you know just like it who knows what what is embodied like it's such an

00:56:51.560 abstract concept like totally above us so obviously with our holidays things get dumbed down because

00:56:57.640 it makes it more approachable and fun so the gist is that the future police within our tradition they

00:57:03.000 look like stormtroopers to a kid right like they look like actual futuristic police like they would see

00:57:10.680 in a sci-fi or something like that whereas to an adult in our tradition they follow much more closer to

00:57:16.520 the words of winwood reed you know you i think ethereal beings of which we cannot even conceive

00:57:22.200 they're they're a being or a type of entity that is beyond our powers of conception the words we were

00:57:28.520 looking for were you blessed ones who shall inherit that future age of which we can only dream you pure

00:57:34.840 and radiant beings who shall succeed us on the earth and if we're going to look at how he describes

00:57:40.840 sort of what they look like or the way they should be conceptualized he says these bodies which

00:57:46.280 now we wear belong to the lower animals our minds have already outgrown them already we look at them

00:57:52.040 with contempt a time will come when science will transform them by means which we cannot conjecture

00:57:58.280 and which even if explained to us we could not understand just as the savage cannot understand

00:58:03.240 electricity magnetism or steam disease will be extirpated the causes of decay will be removed

00:58:10.200 immortality will be invented and then the earth being small mankind will migrate into space

00:58:16.280 and will cross the airless saharas which separate planet from planet and sun from sun the earth

00:58:21.800 will become a holy land which will be visited by pilgrims from all the quarters of the universe

00:58:27.000 finally men will be masters of the forces of nature they will become themselves the architects of

00:58:32.520 systems the manufacturers of world man then will be perfect he will then be the creator he will

00:58:39.400 therefore become what the vulgar worship as a god there is but a difference in degree between the

00:58:44.520 chemist who today arranges forces in his laboratory so that they produce gas and the creator who arranges

00:58:50.760 forces so they produce a world between the gardener who plants a seed and the creator who plants a nebula

00:58:57.560 we do not wish to extirpate religion from the life of man we wish to him to have a religion which will

00:59:04.120 harmonize with his intellect and which inquiry will strengthen not destroy we wish in fact to give him a

00:59:10.920 religion for now there are many who have none and that really just aligns with our mission here we

00:59:17.720 are not looking to remove people for religion we are looking to create a religion that people who

00:59:25.160 right now live without religion or who would otherwise deconvert from religions can accept and

00:59:31.000 a religion which as as it he says uh will harmonize with his intellect in which inquiry will strengthen

00:59:37.880 not destroy and this is not the way that we sell this to kids we sell this to kids as

00:59:45.480 you know stormtroopers basically right and you can even do different iterations of the future day

00:59:50.440 tradition where you have like evil future day police before the kids promise to make the world a better

00:59:54.120 place and then like nice looking ones where you change their visual schema and this also is true

00:59:58.920 with our profit system right our profit system can be taken by a child to mean that these individuals are

01:00:07.080 actual profits in the way that like other religious traditions mean it where it's like a god is talking

01:00:12.360 to someone and that person is passing on moral advice or if you take sort of the adult understanding

01:00:17.800 these are individuals who are being influenced by potentially quantum events and like butterfly effect

01:00:24.520 stuff to go down specific pathways to say the things that need to be said but it's not necessarily

01:00:31.400 a revelation from god as in an entity is actually talking in their ear now it might be but it's not

01:00:37.800 necessarily another thing that we haven't yet really mentioned or delineated is it was in our system we see

01:00:43.640 the mystical arts or mystical approaches to things to always being a pathway to evil and i should

01:00:49.240 point out here i i did not say that they are untrue or inaccurate i am just saying that opening your

01:00:56.360 mind to those sorts of possibilities innately destroys human intellect in a way that is really

01:01:05.480 really damaging a human's ability to process the world in an ordered and structured manner if you want to

01:01:11.960 word this in the way we would explain this to a child i would explain it very similar to the way

01:01:16.920 that you know in like the warhammer 40k universe you would talk about chaos opening your mind to the

01:01:23.080 warp or to chaos would potentially give you some level of magical powers or prescience or something like

01:01:30.200 that but it is an incredibly dangerous thing to do and it's how demons can come in and take over your

01:01:35.880 body so you see there we're using a metaphor to explain something that we think is just a useful

01:01:41.640 thing for a person in terms of how they're mentally developing and how they engage with the truth

01:01:47.480 to prevent them from falling off the path of of logic and righteousness or to put it another way

01:01:54.280 a witch is a witch it doesn't matter if they became a witch to to try to make the world a better place

01:02:00.680 or help people it doesn't matter if they became a witch using instructions that came from one of the

01:02:07.720 abrahamic traditions being a witch will always corrupt your mind and soul you were telling me that it

01:02:13.320 with your head the the certain amount of it after a while it just with your head that's why i'm usually

01:02:18.600 kind of like almost autistic is i'm just being constantly why because lower entities will come in

01:02:24.600 and violate your free will they know all your they see right through you they will not manipulate your

01:02:30.920 free will unless you ask them in i have dude do not say that i'm going to get killed i've 100

01:02:38.040 communicated with something i'm not judging anybody i'm just saying be careful the question is whether

01:02:42.520 that something was actually in my imagination or in my mind or that something was something that takes

01:02:47.400 place in another dimension once you open that gate it's all bad they why is it all bad why why

01:02:53.160 can't you experience that interdimensional being and learn something from it and be a better

01:02:59.320 person because because every time it gets controlled it starts murdering everybody they wind

01:03:04.440 up killing everybody in every case it always starts beautiful it always starts great problem is

01:03:08.840 some of it makes sense that that's where the psychosis comes in whoa it's going to create a giant

01:03:13.480 societal crisis where most of the people are already going to get killed because an evil force wants

01:03:17.720 conflict so i'm saying no no no it's all chaos stop it this is the nature of the beast now people might

01:03:24.120 be like well do you really believe in those sorts of things and the answer is no like the logic side

01:03:28.120 of me doesn't believe in those things but i do think it's useful to build into a religious construct

01:03:33.800 awareness of the mystical stuff so even if we do have dumber people join our tradition we can explain

01:03:40.440 to them in a way that they can understand why it is not useful in society for them to engage with

01:03:45.640 mystical hoodoo in addition it provides some layer of buffering against any would-be magician who wants

01:03:51.720 to try to prove that they have some sort of magical or supernatural connection and use that to pull

01:03:57.720 people from the path of righteousness if you're wondering why we take this view on witchcraft well

01:04:01.800 when i look at the wealthiest people of the world or the most powerful people in the world i don't see

01:04:06.200 a bunch of people who are practicing this sort of mysticism or witchcraft which

01:04:10.280 leads me to believe either it doesn't have real world efficacy or there is some additional cost

01:04:17.960 tied to using it at that sort of a level which prevents people who do use it for these sorts

01:04:23.560 of grander things from achieving their desired outcomes in fact when i look at people who practice

01:04:29.400 mysticism they primarily seem to be on the lower end of the power scale which leads me to again take

01:04:35.400 away either it doesn't work or it has a huge very negative blowback effect on the individuals using

01:04:41.560 it either way it's worth warning practitioners about another thing that this system allows for

01:04:49.560 is the incorporation of more modern profits while also understanding that profits are relevant insofar as

01:04:56.600 they are useful to kids so one that we were talking about recently was the martyr marvin haymeyer and

01:05:03.640 the miracle of the killdozer miracle of the killdozer so this was an event that happened in 2004 anyone

01:05:09.560 can go and learn about it if you don't know what it is trouble began in 2001 when the zoning commission

01:05:15.960 approved the construction of a concrete factory adjacent to marvin's shop for many years he may had used

01:05:22.760 this route to get to his shop as it was really the only access road leading there construction

01:05:28.200 of the plant would block this route however he may try to appeal the zoning commission's decision

01:05:34.120 but was denied he tried to petition the city with neighbors and friends but was once again

01:05:39.560 unsuccessful the concrete plant was going to be built so marvin said all right all right you win

01:05:45.960 i'll just have to find another way to my shop he petitioned to construct a new access road

01:05:51.160 and he even bought all the heavy machinery so he could just do it all himself well guess what he was turned

01:05:57.160 down again to add insult to injury the construction of the factory cut he-mare's connection to the sewage line

01:06:06.040 and granby town council fined him for not being hooked up to the sewer with his livelihood seemingly in ruins

01:06:13.720 marvin felt he had no recourse he began planning his next move he would write notes and record

01:06:19.800 audio tapes about his predicament i was always willing to be reasonable until i had to be unreasonable

01:06:26.520 sometimes reasonable men must do unreasonable things but it did contain a miraculous element which was

01:06:34.120 that multiple individuals had been in his shed and saw him building a tank and none of them noticed or

01:06:41.800 thought to ask him about it and his interpretation of this was that god was occluding their vision and that's

01:06:47.640 not even the most unbelievable thing about all of this numerous people had actually visited marvin

01:06:54.120 during the year and had been in his shed and not one of them said anything about the homemade tank

01:07:03.080 sitting in the corner like what was going through their heads as they looked around that garage

01:07:09.240 hmm nice toolbox may get one of them for myself broken boiler there by the looks of it oh expensive power

01:07:17.400 drill might ask for a loan of that real old pair of boots there giant bulldozer fitted with composite

01:07:25.240 armor tree gun ports on its own surveillance system on more he may believe that god had built him for this

01:07:33.480 job and that it was god who clouded the judgment of the people who entered his shed now well then

01:07:40.200 this means that we can then take multiple interpretations of this right first also the

01:07:45.880 miracle that nobody died during the the killdozer as people would call it rampage right righteous

01:07:51.480 rampage against bureaucracy on june the 4th 2004 marvin lowered the armor onto the killdozer cabin

01:07:58.360 one last time sealing himself inside began his rampage by tearing through the wall of his muffler shop

01:08:04.920 and then the concrete plant before making his way into town for two hours he terrorized the town of

01:08:11.000 granby he destroyed the town hall the office of a local newspaper that editorialized against him

01:08:17.480 the home of a judge and many others every building he destroyed was owned by somebody that had previously

01:08:25.000 wronged him in all he smashed up 13 buildings causing about seven million dollars worth in damages

01:08:33.080 but it should be noted that nobody was armed police made continuous attempts to stop the rampage local

01:08:39.720 and state patrol including a swat team followed the killdozer everywhere it went firing shots at the cab

01:08:46.360 with no effect they then tried to take out the cameras which again failed as they had the bulletproof

01:08:51.720 shielding they climbed aboard trying to figure out a way to put a bullet inside the beast a flashbang

01:08:59.000 grenade was even dropped in the exhaust pipe but nothing they could do could stop it they even brought

01:09:06.360 out a wheel tractor scraper to fight the machine but the killdozer has just pushed it aside so it it

01:09:14.120 teaches us the evils of bureaucracy what's expected of us in a no-win situation against the evils of bureaucracy

01:09:20.360 it it happened there was it was miraculous in in those ways but it also shows the way that god can

01:09:25.640 intervene with things god can intervene with things through occluding people's vision of something

01:09:30.760 that should be obvious to them and we're going to go into this with the hasidic community i think in a

01:09:35.160 different video or we're going to go over the oh well we'll save this for the other video that's another

01:09:39.880 way that can be used another thing that we use in terms of like the kid version versus adult version

01:09:44.760 is we take as the core prophet of the religion winwood reid right and we say as efficacy of his

01:09:50.920 tradition you can look at how his predictions turned out right and it is pretty supernatural how accurate

01:09:58.440 he was much more to from my perspective supernatural and accurate and no vagueness in his predictions

01:10:05.400 like you have in a lot of other like nostradamus-y sorts of predictions or so that's useful to us

01:10:10.920 right in terms of providing some sort of like logical proof to our kids that this was actually

01:10:16.120 inspired by some sort of divine entity but it's also useful to us that we were able to vet the prophet

01:10:21.880 you know hundreds of years after his death instead of having to appoint prophets while they're still alive

01:10:29.160 and world opinions can change pretty dramatically and stuff that they were involved in either

01:10:34.200 scientifically like views they have end up being just like super wrong like winwood reid he was famously

01:10:39.640 involved with the writing of the descent of man right you know one of the most important scientific

01:10:43.800 books so you could say he was at the the nexus of this but then he he also you know if i read you

01:10:49.000 know things he said so you know he was around during the civil war so this is him talking about you know

01:10:54.760 giving black citizens equal rights and he says but it need not be feared that they will become

01:11:00.680 hostile to those with whom they reside experience has shown us that whenever aliens are treated as

01:11:06.440 citizens they become citizens whatever may be their religion or their race it is a mistake to

01:11:11.960 suppose that the civilized black american calls himself an african and pines to return to his

01:11:17.640 ancestral land if he is born in the states he calls himself an american he speaks with an american accent

01:11:23.480 and he loves and hates with an american heart and i think that you know we're able to vet for this you

01:11:28.360 know make sure the guy who we were choosing in the prophet didn't say a bunch of stuff that would get

01:11:32.600 him disqualified with the obvious hard contrast here being mormonism which accidentally built racism

01:11:38.600 into it theology and then had to override that with future prophets but obviously that's going to

01:11:44.360 push a lot of potential converts away from the religious system oh yeah you were you were just

01:11:49.880 telling me this morning this story about one word read that you didn't even know about originally

01:11:54.440 when going through all of his texts because he doesn't personally seem to write about it very much

01:11:59.080 anywhere but he spent extensive time traveling through africa and at one point he found himself

01:12:03.720 inconveniently either put into a position of servitude or like literally enslaved and he was he was posed

01:12:10.120 with a series of very difficult seemingly impossible they were supposed to be impossible feats which he then

01:12:16.920 executed with you know aplomb and grace you know thus uh securing his release you know this is the kind of

01:12:23.800 stuff that prophets do you know just crazy crazy stuff in addition to you know really calling a shot

01:12:29.480 also proving that they could do insane things and i i love that kind of color of a historic prophet i love

01:12:36.120 it yeah well i mean you see this with with catholic saints all the time just like these insane stories

01:12:41.400 about the quirky things that they did that were impossible but so cool you know it's it's so click bait

01:12:47.800 but that's what you need you know you need yeah and i talked about like the the mormon prophet

01:12:51.640 problem was there anything else that you wanted to to say to this concept about preventing sort of

01:12:56.680 intergenerational bleed and the ways we've sort of thought about this and how we constructed our

01:13:01.560 religious system yeah i wish that organized religions would think more about this from a

01:13:09.240 really practical standpoint because i think right now the conversations are how do we keep people from

01:13:14.440 leaving more just like how do we get people to lean more into the religion instead of looking within

01:13:20.200 i think you can kind of look at it from like a relationship microcosm of it's as if people are

01:13:25.720 in these relationships that may not be going so well like they might not be sustainable they're like oh

01:13:31.160 man like how can i you know how can i get my wife to just stay with me like you know what what do i need

01:13:37.240 to tell her like how do i how do i convince her that this is a really good marriage instead of like

01:13:42.040 looking at oneself and being like how can i be a better husband like am i am i doing something wrong

01:13:47.160 am i not showing enough appreciation maybe i should help out around the house more maybe i shouldn't

01:13:51.880 abuse her like all sorts of things right like and so i think that the churches need to look

01:13:56.120 not at their members but rather at their own policies and doctrine and understand deeply what

01:14:05.080 they need to internally change to keep people yeah well and so there's a few other things i wanted to

01:14:11.080 sort of note here one is is is the way like a lot of people wonder about the christian like judeo-christian

01:14:18.600 framing that we've chosen for this um like you could probably construct something like this without a

01:14:23.720 judeo-christian framing but we believe in like when we think about go to the stars we want to go to

01:14:29.400 stars with a contiguous cultural tradition you know the western cultural tradition which i think is

01:14:34.360 encapsulated within the judeo-christian tree of religions and through framing and through taking

01:14:40.760 their prophets as our prophets what we can do is prevent or lower the probability of attack from

01:14:47.400 these groups while also making it easier to talk to these groups from their own perspective a huge

01:14:54.040 problem that a lot of religious groups have when they're trying to convert people out of different

01:14:57.720 religions or trying to relate to people from different religions is they will talk to them from the

01:15:01.720 perspective of their religion they're like how can you doubt jesus when he did you know the bible

01:15:06.360 says these things about him and it's like well they don't believe the bible so that's why now if you

01:15:12.200 take the tesseract god concept that means if ever anyone from this tradition like any of our kids

01:15:17.880 are talking to a jewish person or a christian they believe that that jewish person or a christian

01:15:23.000 has a whole revelation of god so one they're not going to be as interested in converting that person

01:15:27.800 unless the only alternative if that person is going to leave their ancestral tradition and

01:15:31.480 move to the the virus right so in that case they would pick the person up like these rebels who

01:15:36.520 we're talking about but there's no one real motivation to be dangerous to devout christian

01:15:41.400 or jewish groups because they believe that these people do have full access to tradition but when

01:15:45.240 they are talking to that person who's deconverting they can argue from a jewish perspective to that

01:15:51.480 person you have to speak in someone's own terms yes while also lowering the probability of attack so

01:15:58.280 if a christian group sees you as an iteration of christianity or a muslim group sees you as an

01:16:02.200 iteration of islam they are less likely to attack you so long as you aren't a very closely related

01:16:08.840 iteration so the two highest attacked groups that you're going to get within traditions are and you

01:16:15.000 can see our judeo front problem video on this that we do a lot talk a lot about this is when religious

01:16:20.360 traditions are very closely related like shia and sunni you're going to have a lot of conflict there

01:16:24.440 or the early catholic protestant split but when religions become more distantly related but are

01:16:29.640 still part of the wider grouping of religions you typically get pretty low amounts of conflict

01:16:34.600 and when religions get very distantly related like christianity versus pagan religions you get a

01:16:39.560 really high amount of conflict again a great example of both of the dangers of playing this stratagem

01:16:45.880 too closely or too far we can see in the mormon tradition in the early days of the mormon tradition

01:16:51.800 they were much more differentiated in terms of their lifestyle and beliefs than modern day christians

01:16:57.320 and as such they were often in active and very hot conflict with nearby christians i mean at one

01:17:03.720 point they went to war with the us government that's how much conflict the mormons used to be in

01:17:09.320 with nearby christian communities but as time has gone on a unique and i'm not sure if it's a genetic

01:17:15.240 thing was in mormonism or or something that has become a norm was in mormonism but more than any

01:17:21.080 other community mormons seem to want to really really be seen as normal and fit in and be

01:17:28.600 respected for being normal and wholesome but this has led to a problem in that they have started to

01:17:35.880 cover up the ways that they are different from other christians and this has happened through two

01:17:41.880 core sort of chains within the mormon tradition the first is a huge number of their converts are

01:17:48.520 catholics due to where they are converting people which has led to a level of catholization of

01:17:53.400 mormonism which makes a lot of sense i mean you could draw a lot of parallels between the mormon

01:17:57.560 central hierarchy and the catholic central hierarchy from the perspective of a new convert but then you

01:18:02.040 have the second problem which is the mormons who are in the utah the traditional uh mormons mormons of

01:18:07.960 the original mormon cultural and ethnic group they have done very poorly recently because that's the group

01:18:14.440 that really really has this strong desire to fit in and so when they are being preached to by their

01:18:20.440 pastors or whatever you call a pastor in mormonism many of those pastors will often leave out the way

01:18:25.640 that mormonism is different from mainstream christianity because those are the things that if

01:18:30.760 their parishioners repeated in public would get them chastised you know the multiple mortal prohibitions

01:18:37.480 problem or the ideas about intelligences and in the ways that human reincarnation may exist or the

01:18:44.520 idea that humans will eventually become gods themselves or like god and we go into this in

01:18:51.800 the are we mormons videos but the point being is when mormons come to us and they go mormons don't

01:18:56.680 believe this what they mean is that their local preacher doesn't mention this stuff and it's like yeah

01:19:03.160 that's a problem because historically your prophets used to talk about this stuff all the time and me

01:19:09.080 as somebody who really likes studying those sort of weirder aspects of mormonism and finds them much

01:19:13.480 more compelling than the more modernized iteration of mormonism is really into those works like the

01:19:18.520 old orson pratt stuff but this leads to a problem in that the mormon church has lost a lot of its identity

01:19:26.360 from my perspective because of this and is becoming more and more just like any other christian tradition

01:19:32.680 which is of course a risk that you know suppose our system takes off and our kids do really well

01:19:38.280 and they stay within the system and it becomes this large religious group well if it's existing

01:19:42.440 alongside other christian groups and it doesn't have built into its dna this internal drive to rebel

01:19:50.600 and to paint oneself as as different and to be sort of an iconoclast it will face the same problem

01:19:57.640 mormonism does which is just shave off all the parts of it that are really really sharply different

01:20:04.280 from other streams of christianity and it doesn't need to like actively decide to shave it off as i've

01:20:09.240 said it can just be due to where preachers are shifting the focus of their teachings so this allows us to

01:20:15.320 lower the amount of conflict but also logically lower the amount of conflict because we're not an

01:20:20.040 active threat to their devout members like we view it as one of our religious duties to protect

01:20:25.320 people from deconverting from these conservative religions and develop systems that help protect

01:20:29.400 people in these conservative traditions because they increase the diversity of religious systems

01:20:33.400 out there like if you look at the motivations of our system but two if they believe that their system

01:20:39.400 is really the true system our system captures all of the teachings of their systems so if we end

01:20:45.000 up being one of the traditions that goes to the stars their systems could re-emerge out of our system

01:20:50.600 you know it could be god's way of of taking certain religious faiths to the stars that end up dying

01:20:56.200 out through other means also everything that we're aiming to do you know protect conservative religious

01:21:01.640 groups as well as ensuring that humanity becomes an interstellar species and ensure the continued

01:21:07.640 diversity of humanity this might be a problem to some progressive groups or some totalizing religious

01:21:12.280 traditions i.e traditions that eventually want to convert everyone but those religious traditions and

01:21:16.520 those traditions are typically enemies of all other religious traditions because they're totalizing

01:21:20.600 right you know so we we get to be nice there without also having any form of open conflict in

01:21:28.040 regards to that and also people should keep this in mind from our own perspective so they understand

01:21:33.000 that this isn't just altruistic or anything like that we send people back to the other conservative

01:21:38.360 traditions because one we believe that increases the diversity of ideas out there and our belief system is

01:21:45.240 really centered around i guess what you could call cultural darwinism or the idea that the cultural

01:21:50.040 traditions that survive are god's will and that is how god displays his will to us but for cultural

01:21:56.040 traditions to compete you need multiple cultural traditions a healthy ecosystem is a diverse one and

01:22:01.880 that is true at the cultural level as well but in addition to that part of the reason we are not

01:22:07.240 interested in the people who are active in rebelling against their ancestral traditions actively is because

01:22:14.200 we view them as inferior we specifically want the type of people who ask a ton of questions in our

01:22:20.120 video on the genetics of religious traditions and how quickly you can get these sort of sociological

01:22:25.080 tendencies concentrated in religious groups we are almost you could say specifically farming rebellion

01:22:31.560 because we see that as being the core of the the human fire of the human spirit that allows humanity to

01:22:39.560 thrive and is what allows this cycle of intergenerational improvements and what will fuel the next

01:22:45.880 generation of our practitioners to go against us and try to improve the system while still having

01:22:53.240 enough of a drive to compete and enough of a drive towards logic that they are okay with being judged

01:22:59.480 directly against us this is where our system of encouraging our children to rebel comes from which is to

01:23:06.360 say our system if you look at the index in the pragmatist guide to religion and the way it's

01:23:10.920 structured is it encourages our children to rebel but still stay within the larger framework and then

01:23:18.120 they get judged against their own parents and then other ancestors and other members of the tradition by

01:23:23.240 their own children in terms of their efficacy and rearing children i.e in terms of how those children come

01:23:28.600 out from their own perspective if this is your first time hearing about this essentially we tell our

01:23:33.560 children anything that you think that we did poorly as parents or in this tradition we constructed we

01:23:39.960 strongly encourage you to try to make it better to build better systems to adapt systems from other

01:23:47.000 cultures that you think are stronger than the systems that we used with you but do know that there is

01:23:53.480 this central book called the index which you write your perception on how these traditions ended up affecting

01:23:58.920 you in but your children are also going to be writing in and when your grandchildren are choosing how

01:24:04.440 they're going to rebel and are choosing different structures of traditions they can use this book and

01:24:10.200 judge whether or not you actually did a good job in your restructuring of things and they might go

01:24:15.960 back to ancestral ways believing that you did not build a system that was effect as effective as the

01:24:21.400 systems that came before you and so the only way a person would deconvert from this really so long as

01:24:27.080 they're not converting to one of the older traditions is if they didn't think they could do a better job

01:24:32.920 or if they didn't like this metric that we are using to judge a person's competence or the competence

01:24:38.920 of their ideas and that metric is how their children judge the competence of those ideas so all of this

01:24:44.760 is completely egotistical from our perspective us one not wanting to convert people out of conservative

01:24:51.640 traditions but also us sending people back to and protecting people from deconverting from conservative

01:24:56.120 traditions as well as our belief in you know we see ourselves as an ancestral chain we see ourselves

01:25:02.840 as intergenerational entities and that ancestral chain comes out of the judeo-christian traditions

01:25:07.320 so obviously we're also going to see some benefit to protecting those traditions which is also why we

01:25:12.120 encoded them in all of this it's not all just about protection however it is also about protection our

01:25:17.880 goal of intergenerational human improvement at both the spiritual and biological and technological level

01:25:24.680 means that we have faith that within five or six generations members of our tradition will be

01:25:31.880 fairly unassailable from pretty much any other existing tradition in the world today especially

01:25:36.760 when you look at things like the the dropping rates of the polygenic scores that are associated with

01:25:41.720 iq in the general population our real goal here is just to protect our practitioners until we can reach

01:25:51.320 the stage in which this form of protection is no longer necessary i.e protection because we are not

01:25:58.440 an active threat to these groups and they rightly see us as carrying on their traditions and as in a

01:26:05.240 way a part of their traditions the final thing i wanted to touch on is value system which are

01:26:10.680 determined through the ways that the internal hierarchy of a religious tradition works and that

01:26:16.680 this hierarchy is passed down through the way you teach kids what to value and what not to value

01:26:21.960 something that we have repeatedly set up in videos that we have done is we do not believe it is

01:26:27.640 appropriate for anyone to be a preacher unless they have a alternate source of income that they earned

01:26:34.280 on their own i.e it's not mom and dad's money and i.e they are not being paid to preach like we see both

01:26:41.800 of those things as having really negative incentive systems and i should point out here that we're not

01:26:46.600 the only religious tradition to have this prohibition this used to be part of one chain of judaism

01:26:52.600 obviously it wasn't part of judaism during the second temple period and it hasn't been adopted by the

01:26:56.840 hasidic schools of judaism but if you do look at what is written in the talmud you'll get lines

01:27:01.960 like rabbi galeman the son of rabbi yedda hanazi said excellent is the study of the torah together

01:27:08.920 was worldly occupation for the exertion in both of them causes sin to be forgotten all study of the

01:27:15.720 torah in absence of worldly occupation comes to nothing and in the end leads to sin which is what we

01:27:22.040 believe all religious study that is done in absence of labor that moves society forwards is always going

01:27:31.560 to lead to sin like physical labor or inventive labor or basically anything outside of just teaching

01:27:38.120 so would you this group or persuasion of this time period any rabbi that came to them and did not have

01:27:46.280 a job outside of being a rabbi like they did not have another way that they were supporting themselves

01:27:51.960 was teaching and preaching sin and only sin and it should be clear that they they mean this pretty

01:27:58.600 explicitly here if i go on with this quote it then says and all of the work for the community

01:28:04.680 let them for the sake of heaven for the merit of their ancestors sustains them and their righteousness

01:28:09.720 will endure forever and for you who work for the community god says i credit you with a great reward

01:28:17.000 as if you yourselves had done it on your own and then another quote here any father who does not

01:28:23.640 teach his son a trade teaches him banditry and then the other person exposes some surprise at this

01:28:30.360 statement and he goes can it enter your mind that he actually teaches him banditry and then the person

01:28:35.960 basically replies since the son has no profession with which to support himself it is likely to turn

01:28:41.560 to theft for livelihood which is what we see the selling of preaching as being the selling of preaching

01:28:48.760 is a form of theft within our tradition but you can see this is why it is useful for us going back

01:28:55.160 to the traditions of our ancestors back to the wisdom contained within this judeo-christian tree for this

01:29:02.120 extreme wisdom which is still so relevant today all religious study outside of a worldly occupation

01:29:10.840 ultimately leads to sin and this is because of the negative incentives that you're going to get

01:29:16.280 when people begin paying you to tell them what they want to hear this is why you have so many churches

01:29:23.320 bending on their key principles to keep their parishioners but what it also does is it leads to part

01:29:30.040 of the way that you judge a preacher is their real world efficacious accomplishments which means you

01:29:35.720 need this level of real world efficacious accomplishments and there is some level of

01:29:40.760 status hierarchy within the preachers of this system based upon independent research that they're doing

01:29:45.960 that allows them to add to the human body of knowledge and keep the religion being a living religion as we

01:29:51.800 call it versus the dead religion where living religions are religions that are constantly in an internal

01:29:55.800 communication updating themselves and and and producing really top-tier thinkers whereas dead

01:30:03.000 traditions and anyone can look out at historical traditions and see this are ones where they used

01:30:06.600 to produce a lot of top-tier thinkers but they haven't in a few centuries and so it ensures that we we stay

01:30:12.520 that while also preventing the negative and then you've got the profit system where you can't go around claiming

01:30:17.560 you're a prophet or something like that that it's a sure sign that you're not a prophet within this

01:30:21.160 tradition if you're doing that this can only be determined after an individual dies which prevents

01:30:26.120 that level of abuse but also allows individuals like it's very hard to like want to be a preacher

01:30:32.440 within this system to make money if that's seen as a sign of like a low status preacher right so you don't

01:30:37.960 have the same negative incentive structure there what else would you say simone so our religions value

01:30:45.560 systems which we're all a lot around obviously long-termism but also industry efficacy working

01:30:51.880 hard but also being very intellectually minded and open-minded are obviously like reinforced by values and

01:30:58.600 the texts that we choose but also like sort of we'll say low culture elements like we have a list of

01:31:04.600 approved films and they range from movies like clueless to indiana jones to starship troopers like these are not

01:31:12.120 you know i don't know like weird obscure documentaries this is very popular media but

01:31:18.120 then of course it goes back to our holidays you know our holidays are just future day for example

01:31:22.680 another holiday we have we currently call lemon week it may get a better name eventually but it involves

01:31:28.360 of course colorful fun motifs of lemons and lots of citrus treats and meals but over this week of citrus

01:31:34.680 treats and lemon decorations and all that fun each family member who's intellectually capable of doing this

01:31:41.240 has just like a topic that deeply deeply offends them like just they they hate it so much and they have

01:31:48.920 to very earnestly steel man their position and share it with the family so they have to dive into these

01:31:56.520 you know these groups subreddits or their texts or their videos or whatever it is and really really

01:32:01.720 understand it um from a good faith perspective and then explain it to the family and give a very strong

01:32:07.960 pitch to the family and the family will judge if you have not been intellectually honest if you are

01:32:12.200 just straw manning them if you're making them look bad we will judge you and shame you and then at the

01:32:17.480 end of the week everyone gets to plant a fruit tree and then enjoy the fruits of their bitter but productive

01:32:24.040 exercise so you know these are examples of ways that we dumb it down make it fun make it approachable

01:32:29.320 but i'll hopefully pass down these values all right well we can go to the next video i guess talk about this more some

01:32:35.160 other time there are other things i wanted to talk to you but this video is just getting too long

01:32:38.200 yeah and i'm talking too much i don't like it when you're not adding a lot so i don't give a

01:32:44.200 shit what people think i don't give a shit what people think of our philosophy when people like leave

01:32:48.840 all these comments on like you know religious philosophy and this and this and this i cannot be bothered you

01:32:54.600 guys i cannot be bothered just live your lives follow your religion and we'll see how you do

01:33:00.120 and those who accuse us of being consequentialists yeah we are 100 it's quite immoral to not be a

01:33:06.360 consequentialist why would you not be a consequentialist we're material everyone who says

01:33:11.240 really do you think the ends justify the means that's that's people who disagree with us

01:33:16.920 yeah the ends always of course well i mean if you're if you're leading to a good most moralizing

01:33:23.160 people so everything else is just is just moral set dressing that's what so most people live by

01:33:31.800 malcolm that's what they live by but i believe consequentialist groups will out compete non

01:33:36.840 consequentialist groups i'll tell you that um we'll see through the consequences right for anyone who's

01:33:42.680 watching this and doesn't know what consequentialism is consequentialism is the ethical theory that judges

01:33:47.560 whether something is right or wrong based on what its consequences are rather than judging actions

01:33:52.600 based on whether or not they adhere to certain rules or duties or intentions so essentially a

01:33:59.400 non-consequentialist would say well i didn't intend for me sending all of that aid money indiscriminately

01:34:06.920 to africa to end up funding terrorists and leading to a huge escalation and violence therefore it was a

01:34:12.840 good thing for me to do it while a consequentialist would say it doesn't matter you should have tried to

01:34:18.040 figure out what matters is that the money you sent made the situation worse and therefore it was a

01:34:23.720 bad thing and this is because consequentialism and the reason a lot of people don't like consequentialism

01:34:28.280 is because it requires a level of self-responsibility and accountability that a lot of people aren't

01:34:35.160 willing to take we saw this for us when our travel company really suffered during the pandemic

01:34:40.520 and a lot of investors were like oh you know it's an act of god don't worry about it and we're like no

01:34:45.240 like you you never get to shirk responsibility just because it would have been hard to predict it

01:34:51.080 of all of the things we could have predicted something like this we could have done more

01:34:54.520 to prepare for something like this we are 100 responsible when we fail regardless of what our

01:35:04.040 intentions are the moment you take a philosophy that allows somebody wiggle room out of that they will

01:35:10.120 use that to justify basically just following orders or just following traditions or well i thought it

01:35:17.160 was going to help and i think this is being one of the core problems of the progressive mind virus

01:35:22.040 it's it it takes such an anti-consequentialist mindset where it really really really wants to

01:35:26.840 push this idea of as long as what you intended was good i.e well by telling a fat person that it was

01:35:34.680 going to have long-term negative effects for them to keep eating i was trying to lessen their

01:35:39.480 emotional pain but of course that has the consequence of causing much more damage in the

01:35:44.040 long run so they have this anti-consequentialist viewpoint where they're like well my intention

01:35:47.800 was nice and that's why i didn't mention it and that's why we hate this anti-consequentialist mindset

01:35:52.280 so so so much that said and we have an upcoming video on this there is one instance where a

01:35:58.120 deontological viewpoint that is the the viewpoint that what matters is duty and tradition over the

01:36:04.600 consequences of inaction is higher utility than a consequentialist viewpoint and that is for

01:36:09.560 individuals who are taking on the role of a knight instead of a king within their cultural tradition

01:36:15.480 and and we'll talk about this within a video basically you always want the leaders and the

01:36:19.480 people who are planning the grand strategy of a group to be consequentialist but you want the rank

01:36:25.320 and file brave soldiers pushing forward the tradition to be deontologists for people who

01:36:31.160 are wondering why the lights different in parts of this filming it's because we wanted to have simone

01:36:35.800 talk more well then if we've got a little bit of extra time is there anything else you wanted to say

01:36:39.960 on the religion episode because i'd really love more thoughts about passing on value systems from you

01:36:46.440 good and evil etc like what do you think about the idea of just creating a completely like

01:36:51.800 a constructed religion yeah it's like so i guess what would happen if a family because i what i

01:37:00.920 wonder is like how many people are going to take what you wrote in the pragmatist guide to crafting

01:37:04.440 religion and just run with it right just like all right what the hell and we know some people are

01:37:10.200 doing this we just don't know what their religions are like yet and when we start formally putting

01:37:15.080 together the index which is a collection of families who want to be loosely allied who all will have

01:37:20.440 different cultures and religions but would like to share data on their performance of their cultural

01:37:24.600 religions and sort of categorize their their cultural practices and beliefs so we can all sort of learn

01:37:29.960 from each other and we'll start learning from them then because we're going to catalog all these things

01:37:34.360 however i imagine some people are going to do some really weird shit like for example maybe someone's

01:37:39.720 going to be like santa claus you know you're just saying right like oh santa claus has taken on like

01:37:43.640 a lot more than a lot of other religious concepts what if someone's like let's just make this a

01:37:47.640 friggin religion like let's go for it all the way you know not just not just christmas but like

01:37:52.760 throughout the year you know he sees you and well the elves are building stuff right now and like

01:37:58.280 you know we have to to serve you know i don't know well so this is this is really interesting and

01:38:05.000 so a lot of people don't know that this is the way our religion is structured unless they've seen

01:38:08.360 like ancillary interviews or read the pragmatist guide to crafting religion but we strongly encourage our

01:38:14.040 kids to dissent from our theological views but stay within the religious system in the same way that

01:38:20.600 like capitalism it turns the greed of society into efficacy we tried to build a system that turns the

01:38:28.680 desire to prove others wrong the rebelliousness wrong rebelliousness into fidelity to cultural traditions

01:38:39.160 and the way that we do that is by creating strict measures by which an individual's life is judged

01:38:44.680 and we do this when an individual dies we've talked about this in other things is we're like what were

01:38:48.120 they aiming for did they live a life well and what do their kids think of them because you know that's

01:38:52.760 how an individual is best judged because your kids are judging you from either the value set that you

01:38:56.760 taught them and that they kept or they abandoned the values that you taught them in which case you failed in

01:39:02.200 that regard so are your kids judging you by an evolved iteration of the value set that you created

01:39:09.160 and that is the way we we work with our kids we're like okay you think you can do better than us

01:39:15.080 you think you can do more for your kids than we did for you then try create a better system yeah but

01:39:22.600 your kids will judge you in the same way you judge us within this central document which is called the index

01:39:30.120 index and then future generations will judge which of us was best well so i think there are some

01:39:37.080 examples of already totally made up religions that kind of started getting traction right like the church

01:39:43.000 of the subgenius for example which you loved when you were a kid did sort of build up a bit of a cult

01:39:49.240 following right like it's sort of dedicated to hedonism yeah which is not great right but i'm just saying like

01:39:55.160 there have been some entirely like ironically made up religions where people have in the end

01:40:01.960 started getting caught up in it like there is precedent for this and while i think you know we

01:40:08.120 just had this long conversation about how you know logical inconsistencies will leave people just

01:40:15.000 wanting more and leaving the faith yeah well and i also think another thing that a lot of people might

01:40:19.640 hear all this and they're like where are you guys actually strict within your ruling system because

01:40:23.400 you seem to abandon a lot of you know what people complain about in terms of the arbitrary restrictions

01:40:27.400 of religion and that's true we are attacking what are the arbitrary ones the ones that people are

01:40:32.760 most complaining about whereas we are going much further with the ones like self-denial and attack on

01:40:39.720 any form of hedonism to the extent where any level of self-aggrandizement all of that are status

01:40:45.320 hurting things within our cultural group if you go out and you are adorned in lots of jewelry or

01:40:51.160 something like that that is a sign that you are a sinner and that you are not someone to be trusted

01:40:57.640 but i oddly think a lot of this is actually cribbed from our really early relationship conversations

01:41:02.840 before we ever had kids about raising kids and like some of the advice that we said on that we liked

01:41:07.640 the most especially about having teenagers was like basically have no rules just have a very very

01:41:14.360 small number of rules that actually matters enforce them like mad but they have to be rules that make

01:41:19.640 sense and that's it like yeah and this is this is also really interesting so a lot of people look at

01:41:24.520 our thing like our very low temperature we keep in the house and stuff like that in the winter and what

01:41:29.240 they misunderstand is when they look at this they say oh so you live you know in constant pain like

01:41:34.760 why don't you do an additional pain rituals right like the opus day or something like that

01:41:39.560 which we would see as indulgent signs of vanity and what a waste of time because you are wasting

01:41:45.880 time to demonstrate something pain and efficacy is something that you drive through to reach an end

01:41:52.760 goal and that you should be expected to drive through whereas signs of vanity or narrative building

01:41:58.920 or self-indulgence we understand that all humans are sinners and to attempt to not sin at all

01:42:05.240 is a pass to personal damnation but to to to aggrandize the sin to say i'm actually good

01:42:15.080 because i waste my time working out to look good like beyond what's just healthy that is also the

01:42:20.680 highest one of the highest orders of sin although within our system we do have the single highest order

01:42:25.000 of sin which is stagnation that is the sin above all other sins is personal stagnation or or cultural

01:42:32.280 stagnation or any form of stagnation which is why we talk about this concept of living in dead religions

01:42:37.320 is the dead religions are the ones that have allowed themselves to stagnate whereas humanity's

01:42:41.720 greatness is defined by our intergenerational improvement and intergenerational advancement

01:42:47.640 which which does you know potentially put us into conflicts with some religious traditions except

01:42:52.760 we see them as as useful as a different perspective and thus thus worth maintaining as much as we can

01:42:59.400 um but it's actually interesting how symbiotic like if this tradition takes off how symbiotic it is

01:43:05.720 with traditional cultural traditions and that it literally doesn't want and it sees it as a

01:43:11.560 religious order to help protect their members from deconverting and it only wants to prevent the

01:43:18.840 people who they would otherwise have bleeding off from it who are bleeding off for mental fortitude

01:43:24.920 reasons instead of corruptibility reasons so if i'm going to categorize these two things corruptibility

01:43:31.480 reasons is they're bleeding off because they just want to have a lot of sex or something like that or

01:43:35.560 they want to you know just indulge in their you know some form of personal identity and in which case

01:43:41.400 we don't want them but then integrity reasons is they see some area of logical inconsistency they just

01:43:46.840 can't get over but they would really rather not fall to completely to the urban monoculture we can act as

01:43:55.960 a good backstop which can prevent talented individuals from falling into the urban monoculture

01:44:01.720 um so it's not acting as an outright conversion mechanism but as part of this cultural economy that

01:44:08.840 prevents the true dangerous force from destroying our civilization before it can reach the stars and ensuring that

01:44:16.840 the western cultural tradition does join the stars to some extent so i'm gonna be like why

01:44:21.480 don't you care about the eastern cultural tradition because that's not us like i have no connection to

01:44:24.760 that it would be weird and almost kind of racist for me to attempt to simulate that or simp that you

01:44:31.720 know we can we can work to help them where we can but we're not part of that tradition anyway i

01:44:37.320 love you to decimum would you like to go over together i can go over by myself you said it's a lot

01:44:44.120 easier with me helping yeah but i bet it's easier for you not to help yeah but no you bought me

01:44:51.560 puddings today we're going we're going together so meet me in the kitchen yeah okay you're the best i love

01:44:56.440 you

Based Camp - January 26, 2024

Why People Leave Their Religion & How We Will (Try To) Guard Against It

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