In this episode, we talk about the phenomenon of Dinks, and why they should not be allowed to have kids. We also talk about why Dinks are bad parents and why we should all be worried about them.
00:00:11.720The response that prenatalist communities or even just like broadly conservative people have to them is just totally wrong.
00:00:17.860These are people who really, really, really, really should not be having kids.
00:00:20.880We mean this both from a genetic reason, like as we've talked about, like a dink is obviously more likely to be narcissistic, less likely to want to give back to society, etc.
00:00:28.720But in addition to that, they're not going to be good parents.
00:00:50.680And I am excited to be here with you today because we are going to talk about a subject that I didn't really know about.
00:00:57.260But apparently there was some meme around this because a bunch of people got mad at people on the Internet about this because people on the Internet love to get mad and judge other people.
00:01:55.540How is that a good thing that we are basically forcing, you know, people who don't want kids to have children with people who they did not intend to have children with?
00:03:10.700They do come off as a little inseparable.
00:03:12.600Well, I mean, well, for context, like, dinks did start trending a lot recently because a lot of dinks are making TikTok videos specifically about it.
00:03:19.860And this one couple doing a sort of back and forth of dink lifestyle amenities went viral, which led to a lot of discussion.
00:03:27.880Our friend of the show, Edward Dutton, did a counter dink video that I'll put here and found randomly.
00:03:34.520It just came up because, oh, his voice sounds familiar.
00:05:29.060While, you know, you can look at individual things you're seeing and saying, that's not true of all married couples.
00:05:33.160I think that that is, it is disingenuous to make the claim that married couples and dinks have access to the same amount of resources.
00:05:42.780And that is really, really important is that they actually do have access to more resources.
00:05:49.800What is more interesting to me, and I think what causes the backlash to them, is why do they want these additional resources?
00:05:59.680What are they trading the continuation of our species and their culture and the improvement, like the intergenerational improvement of humanity?
00:06:09.000This great game that every single one of their ancestors participated in and sacrificed for.
00:06:14.160What they're pointing out when they talk about all the things that they can have because they're not parents, is they're pointing out what a sacrifice a parent is.
00:06:22.180And what a sacrifice every individual who came before them so that they had the privilege to opt out of this system.
00:06:29.680The sacrifices that that huge, great chain of individuals had to undergo for them to have the privilege to basically cash out now.
00:06:37.000It is as selfish as the boomers who go out there and just take out tons of debt in the name of future generations.
00:06:47.300They are cheating the system because they don't have to deal with the consequences personally.
00:06:52.700Now, what is also true is the genetic precursors to their psychological proclivities that lead to this sort of narcissistic and selfish behavior are going to be bred out of the population.
00:07:10.560And the cultural groups that did a bad job of motivating them to, you know, intergenerationally stay in this system are also going to be bred out of the population.
00:07:19.800And even if those groups are aggressively attempting to convert people intergenerationally, the groups they're converting from are going to get better at resisting them.
00:07:27.680We're just not going to see that anymore.
00:07:28.920You know, there's one study I saw recently that said something like 55% of Gen Z plans to not have kids.
00:07:36.080And for a huge portion of them is environmental concerns.
00:07:38.920So they have been so brainwashed by this environmental apocalypticism because every generation, every 20 years is an apocalyptic cult.
00:07:47.340You know, their kids are going to not have kids, you know, if they had kids because of AI, right?
00:07:51.500You know, you see this in the EA movement, which has just become this crazy, aggressive Luddite community.
00:07:57.160The moment, the moment, you know, I always go back to the Douglas Adams quote of everything invented after you were 30 is like an abomination and must be destroyed.
00:08:04.880The moment the leaders of the movement turn 30, all of a sudden, all new technological innovations are heresy and must be destroyed and a threat to the future of our species.
00:08:14.160And these young people really believe this sort of nonsensical panic who sometimes, you know, come into the movement now because they don't know that, you know, just old people who time has left behind yelling at the sky.
00:08:43.580So so these concerns, this sort of susceptibility to this form of apocalypticism, like environmentalist apocalypticism is hopefully going to be brought out of our species.
00:08:51.640Now, this will lead to more environmental catastrophes in the future.
00:08:54.340But I mean, humans have had a great, great job and done a great job at creating environmental catastrophes over and over and over again.
00:09:03.160You know, you look at like when the environmental protection act went into place, it went into place because lakes used to regularly catch fire in some areas.
00:09:35.920No, no, when they came to this country, they systemically exterminated hundreds of species, just completely changed the ecological landscape, caused huge ecological disasters.
00:09:54.640We had reached this one iteration of our species and thought it might go in the opposite direction.
00:09:59.060But the moment, you know, that then also became a sterilizing memetic context, like, you know, they then disappear.
00:10:06.600So you have these dinks and people are like, well, do you hold animosity to them?
00:10:09.780And it's like, no, I mean, really, I think I hold a level of pity for them.
00:10:14.080Because a lot of these people, you know, when I look at these women who are spending, you know, 300K or whatever on trying to get pregnant and they're like 45, they had this mindset when they were younger.
00:10:24.380Because they didn't realize or they didn't fully accept yet that what gives them the happiness that they were getting from things like this commercial extravagance, these trips, was going to change as they got older.
00:10:38.360And they just – it had probably already changed by the time they filmed these videos.
00:10:42.100They just built their self-identity because, you know, there's a lot of research on identity creation, which typically happens between, like, 18 and 24.
00:10:48.240And during that period of your life, you're in this mindset of, like, kids' ick because, you know, you are supposed to be going out there and finding a mate.
00:11:03.000But they mistakenly believe this because it's reinforced by society around them.
00:11:06.380So then they end up in these desperate states, you know, reaching out to, you know, our foundation being like, hey, can you fund me to get IVF?
00:11:12.740And we're like, no, that's not what the foundation does.
00:11:14.520That is – yeah, we should point out that that is something that has happened to us, that, like, many people who probably formerly identified as child-free or dink have contacted us and basically said, like, I can no longer afford IVF.
00:11:28.140Can you – you know, can you give me a grant?
00:11:37.360That you made your own bet is really at the end of the day.
00:11:39.880And people don't realize that they have thrown away their happiness and their future.
00:11:43.580No organization is going to – is going to invest in a person's fertility if they're in their 40s and having trouble having a kid because they're the same dollars that they could spend on that older person could help, like, you know, 10, 20, 20-year-olds have kids.
00:12:06.800So I guess, like, if I'm going to give one piece of advice to dinks of, like, here's how to really have absolutely zero regrets, like, freeze eggs, sperm, and or embryos.
00:12:18.960It doesn't – like, they do not work as well as people think they do.
00:12:21.860Yeah, but, I mean, some dinks are single.
00:12:24.080So, like, for the dink couple that went viral, I would encourage them to freeze embryos, obviously, because they were a couple and they had other people.
00:12:30.580But, like, I think many women and men don't have a partner and, therefore, like, you have to do what you can with what you have.
00:12:37.500So, yeah, I get what you're saying, Malcolm, but, like, at the same time, like, it's better than nothing.
00:12:45.080Maybe you'll have, like, a sister or a brother or a cousin who really, like, can't, you know, can't use their own material and they'd really appreciate you as a donor.
00:12:53.200And people who are horrified by this see our video on who kills more kids, Catholics or us.
00:12:57.400Like, you're like, no, creating an embryo via IVF is creating a kid and so you're murdering them if they don't end up being used.
00:13:02.800This is not what early Catholic theologians thought.
00:13:04.960This is not what most early Christian theologians thought.
00:13:07.160You know, you look like Augustus Epimbo or Thomas Aquinas.
00:13:10.780You know, they thought that the soul entered the developing embryo 30 days after it began developing.
00:13:15.840This is a fairly modern belief that is not really biblically backed.
00:13:20.360And then we go into this with lots of quotes and stuff like that.
00:13:22.980So just be aware that we're not out there advocating the rampant killing of kids.
00:13:26.920We're just trying to ensure that the kids who are meant to come into the world can and we don't end up with these heartbreaking situations.
00:13:32.080And we see we do see Dinks change their mind.
00:13:34.040But I think my larger stance of Dinks is, like, the response that pronatalist communities or even just, like, broadly conservative people have to them is just totally wrong.
00:13:43.220These are people who really, really, really, really should not be having kids.
00:14:35.700And I should point when we say, like, Dinks shouldn't have kids.
00:14:38.200You know, we don't we mean this both from a genetic reason, like, as we've talked about, like, a Dink is obviously more likely to be narcissistic, less likely to want to get back to society, etc.
00:14:47.800But in addition to that, I think that that they're not going to be good parents.
00:14:54.340And and even when it's heartbreaking, when somebody reaches out to us and they're like, I didn't start trying to have kids until X age because of whatever.
00:15:01.800It's like, well, so nobody chose to be with you who you were willing to accept.
00:15:06.280You know, like, that's a sign, OK, that you waited this long, that you didn't question what you were being told by society.
00:15:15.200All of these things are unfortunately like we live in a world where unfortunately not everyone is really equally fit to be a parent.
00:15:23.800And that the selfishness that is shown by these individuals means that they're much more likely to fall into this narcissistic parent category, which is really, really something that I would promote avoiding.
00:15:36.800One of the tweets that was done and like counter to the Dinkness, I think it was actually Elon's tweet to this, is he goes, it's really selfish to not have kids because what you're saying is somebody else's kids have to care for you in your old age.
00:15:47.940And I thought that that was a I mean, I don't think that's going to compel Dinks, but it is also a true statement.
00:15:54.580You know, when these people are, you know, promoting immigration and stuff like that, what they're essentially saying is we didn't take the time or make the effort to raise the next generation ourself.
00:16:05.060And therefore, you know, when I'm old and I'm living off of the the dole, off of society, off of Social Security or whatever, I need to import people from other countries to support me.
00:16:16.360But I also like I don't know. I don't know. I don't agree with that particular stance of Elon Musk.
00:16:22.320I don't like I think a lot of these people are going to die deaths of despair or they're just not going to get very good services or they're not going to get human help because the human help isn't available and they're going to have to deal with that.
00:16:34.720And that's that's just kind of on them or they'll be fine.
00:16:39.060And, you know, it's a market based thing and they will have saved the money necessary to pay a very pretty penny for whoever is very happy to receive that money to give them services.
00:16:50.200I don't like that argument to me doesn't do anything like either they're going to, you know, die alone on the floor or not being taken care of because they haven't planned accordingly or they're going to kill themselves, which I think a lot of I think euthanasia is going to see, especially in a post demographic collapse world, people are going to opt into humanely killing themselves when they become too old to either pay for their lifestyles or they're unhealthy, you know, or they're just going to be able to pay for someone like whatever.
00:17:19.260And that's fine. Like I'm OK with employment.
00:17:21.800So if they if they are paying for people, but a lot of these people don't really are not really planning to pay for them, they're going to die alone on the floor.
00:17:29.780Or they're going to be a major voting block because people aren't having as many kids and elderly people vote more than young people and they end up taking the money from the younger generations to support their indulgent lifestyles, which is something that we're already seeing the older generation do.
00:17:46.240That's where this unsustainable debt load and everything like that is coming from.
00:17:50.940And they will do that and they will keep doing that and they will do it more in the future until the system breaks.
00:17:57.960Because they don't care. They don't care about future generations and they don't care about people younger than them.
00:18:03.000They only care when you see the video. It's not like I'm a dink so I can give back to society.
00:18:07.560It's I'm a dink so I can indulge in personal hedonism as much as possible and we will have one, you know, the next generation is likely going to suffer to some extent because of these individuals.
00:18:18.360However, that suffering will to some extent be ameliorated with the knowledge that at least these individuals have removed themselves from our cultural landscape and our genetic landscape.
00:18:29.340And this is something that I think people really don't expect much, you know, running the peronatalist movement, people will come to us and they'll say, how do you convince this environmentalist who doesn't want to have kids?
00:18:39.980How do you convince this person who has no kids that they think they can't afford them or something?
00:18:44.620And it's like, well, except, you know, the less money you have, the more kids you have.
00:18:47.960So clearly people with less money than them are able to afford kids.
00:18:50.700Within all of these instances, we're just like, don't have kids with no argument for them.
00:18:54.920And they don't get it because they're not used to that.
00:18:56.400Every movement they've dealt with before says, everyone, you must do what we're telling you to do.
00:19:02.200When we come to them and they come to us and they're like, well, what do you think of me doing this?
00:19:06.420And we're just like, well, we don't care about you.
00:19:21.100And then there's the alternate group, which does matter for us to reach out to.
00:19:25.000These are young people who are being influenced, are brainwashed, and just need to know that this is an option for them, that this is a problem, and that these environmental nutjobs, we've done a video on this, are mostly lying to them.
00:19:36.720These AI nutjobs, we've done a video on this, are mostly lying to them.
00:19:39.960These things are not the threats that they're being told.
00:19:43.660If they had studied American history in something outside of our horrified, failing public school system, they likely don't know.
00:19:51.080What would be blindingly obvious to anyone who has actually studied American history is that America has a large apocalypticist movement that spreads, particularly within upper class communities, urban communities, stuff like that, about every 20 years, 25 years about.
00:20:05.620And this is just something that America has had forever.
00:20:08.960And no, they are not the first generation to think the world's about to end.
00:20:46.120And if they don't have these same problems, then it's probably not the same issue that these people think it is.
00:20:51.700And that they're really just looking for justification for decisions they were already inclined to make or wanted to make, while also making themselves feel morally important.
00:21:00.160Like they're at an important point in history.
00:21:01.460Because everybody wants to feel that way.
00:21:43.700I know that everyone's really concerned that, like, the upper classes have stopped having kids.
00:21:46.740And I need to, because Caesar was concerned about this.
00:21:48.920You know, there's famous laws that he was passing because he noticed that nobody was having kids anymore.
00:21:52.880And I need to plan out, like, geographically where are they going to live because Rome's going to become more destabilized in these areas, et cetera.
00:22:00.900And it puts a lot of responsibility on an individual.
00:22:03.020And it is both a gift and a curse that we are the generation that gets to engage in that responsibility.
00:22:09.300But because of that, this is no longer a situation of just convince everyone to have more kids.
00:22:15.220It's now a situation of empower the people who are going to build the next civilization to do a better job doing that instead of, you know, convert these, you know, pretty pathetic individuals.
00:22:28.580But here's something that I think is more interesting and under-discussed on this issue, which is the amount of butthurt you do get from pronatalist people about dinks and child-free couples.
00:22:39.700And I think what's really telling about the butthurt that you get from them and the fact that they react viscerally and are so judgmental really implies, it could imply, a tremendous lack of security in their decision and a certain amount of resentment that they do not share that same amount of affluence and freedom.
00:23:01.240And I think a lot of that may be because we do.
00:23:05.020This is what's really interesting, Sinan.
00:23:07.020When I look at the pushback against the dink movement, it does not come from like pronatalist parents.
00:23:14.180I see it occasionally there, but it's not predominantly from that group.
00:23:18.140The predominant group, because I was going through videos today on YouTube complaining about dinks.
00:23:22.000It's actually mostly from younger moderates who one day plan to have kids.
00:23:29.080So then I guess that would explain it more because then they're on the fence and they still feel more heavily the pressures of wanting all the nice stuff, right?
00:23:39.720And they might be closer to these communities or they haven't fully achieved, you know, the having kids yet and everything like that.
00:23:45.900I think that when people are on like the civilizational train, I'd say they don't really care about the people who are off the civilizational train.
00:23:52.560It's more like let's focus on everyone else who's on the civilizational train.
00:23:56.140And the dinks are just not participating in the civilizational train and the fight that they're having is with other people who aren't on it yet.
00:24:03.880I still, I still think that there are, I mean, in the commentary I've seen, there are some families that have a lot of kids that do, that do complain occasionally and bemoan like the hedonic sacrifices they have to make with kids.
00:24:20.740And I think that's just a product of living in a society that celebrates the lifestyle of a like late teen, early twenties, male or female.
00:24:29.940And I don't feel that way even a little.
00:24:48.460But I think this is important for the pernatalist movement to remember.
00:24:51.000Like, if you consider yourself part of the movement and you're out there advocating for it, when somebody comes to you and they go, well, how are you going to convince me to have kids?
00:24:58.540How do you convince, you know, the 20-something environmentalist who doesn't want to have kids?
00:25:06.600These people are not a part of the problem in that they're a part of the solution, to be honest.
00:25:13.220If there's a group out there that opposes you and is sterilizing themselves, do not, you know, fuck up your opponent when they are in the process of a great mistake.
00:25:24.680Like, you know, this is something that around the world, what great blessing it is to have your opponents primarily be a group that is sterilizing themselves.
00:25:35.760That is not a mistake that you want to get in the middle of, nor do you want to take too much relish in the fact that they are going to lead to more suffering within their own population in the long run.
00:25:47.840So, like, we can point out within our communities, wow, these people are really probably going to end up trying to get pregnant later.
00:25:53.100They're going to be really sad about this decision.
00:25:55.700They are going to suffer emotional and psychological consequences for this decision.
00:25:59.900But we do not publish that, you know, when we're doing, like, press stuff and stuff like that.
00:26:16.160Because the kids that are not burdened with having to live with these parents are fortunately, hopefully, going to be born into families like ours or like other high-fertility families that really are having kids because they want to make the world a better place intergenerationally and because they want to participate in this intergenerational cycle and not as an alternative to going on a trip to Florida every year in terms of the amount of happiness or status it gets.
00:26:49.220Do you have any other thoughts on your dinky dinks?
00:26:55.280One thing I'm just thinking about is before we had kids and we lived as a dink couple, having these thoughts of, like, well, I better enjoy sleeping through the night because I'm never going to do it again.
00:27:09.600And I do somewhat – as much as I know it's not really productive to have a conversation about, like, oh, actually being a parent isn't so bad.
00:27:45.960Like, a one-parent family is far – one, they're not really on the civilizational train.
00:27:52.940So they're not getting the benefits of having kids.
00:27:54.980And two, the effort required to raise one kid.
00:27:58.960The sacrifices you make to raise one kid are so much higher than the sacrifices you make when you're having seven or eight kids or something like that, you know.
00:30:32.820If you – like, after your first kid, if you're framing having more kids, like, you just assume you're going to have a bunch of kids.
00:30:37.880The way you build the routines around your kids, the way you build your routines around pregnancy are really different and just make the whole process a lot easier.
00:31:11.320It feels very much like a ghost house, which I think is really surprising to people when they normalize to two kids.
00:31:17.720When you normalize your brain to the idea I'll have, like, seven to 13 kids, which, you know, realistically we'll probably only get to seven even if we do everything right.
00:31:38.760And it feels so like we're doing so little.
00:31:41.120But we also end up making decisions like finding ways to take them out of daycare and stuff like that that actually are financially beneficial to us even now.
00:31:48.460But they're decisions we probably wouldn't have been forced to find solutions to had we not planned on having so many more kids.
00:31:55.720We would have been like, well, we can deal with the financial cost of – or the temporal cost of doing this or that.
00:32:02.400You're allowed and able to and encouraged to make very unsustainable financial choices.
00:32:09.100So, like, yeah, I guess it is true being a parent is way, way, way, way worse than being a dual income, no kids couple or person when you have just one, maybe two kids, extra stressful.
00:32:21.860And then after that, it can get – especially after four.
00:32:24.300That's when economies of scale, like, kick in.
00:32:26.680You know, when you actually look at literal unit economics, that's when it really –
00:32:49.580You have our blessing and you don't need it, but we don't need your blessing.
00:32:54.420Have a great life and I really hope that it does work out for you because I appreciate the service that you are playing to our species by removing yourself from the cultural and genetic pool.
00:33:28.520And what it does is if you click a little button within your Gmail account, sort of next to like, you know, the delete message button and stuff like that, it actually will just summarize the message up top.
00:33:37.040And you can click a button to automatically create an AI response to that message.
00:33:40.780And you can do this within messages, too.
00:33:43.200You get one of the six, you know, suggested AI responses or you can create a prompt and it will create a response for you.
00:33:48.640And it works spectacularly well from what I've seen so far that if you're worried about security or anything like that, I mean, he's my brother.
00:33:59.580Like, if it was anyone else out there creating, like, an AI product like this, I'd be worried about giving them access to my inbox as an AI.
00:34:08.060But this is, like, alternate timeline, Malcolm.
00:34:11.700I'm – I – yeah, just think what you will of that, you know?
00:34:15.820Alternate timeline, Malcolm, who worries about everything.
00:34:18.620Like, we were once in a building with him and he was like, how sure are you of the structural integrity of this building?
00:34:25.760Like, he was literally worried that the building was going to collapse on top of us.
00:34:30.800So, yeah, no, he's being extremely thoughtful about security and everything else.
00:34:34.760I will add, just in terms of, like, cool feature to this, I personally don't use it to compose emails because I don't like AI style of writing.
00:35:14.400And this will give me nice bulleted summaries in English of everything that happened in the entire email thread.
00:35:19.700It will even remind you, if there's, like, a chain that you summarize, it will say, like, so-and-so said this, and then you responded saying that.
00:35:28.300And then, you know, and it's genuinely wonderful.
00:35:31.660Really has reduced my stress palpably.
00:35:34.240Well, that's why he made it, you know.