Based Camp - Wokes Don't Want You to Know Dissociating is Scientifically Beneficial (The Data)

00:00:00.000 Some leftist is going to clip it and be like, you know that Simone chick? 1.00

00:00:03.980 She's in a constant state of trauma response.

00:00:06.520 She's in a constant state of disassociation being married. 0.56

00:00:09.140 Well, so Simone, you're telling me that the only way you get through life with me is being in a constant state of disassociation.

00:00:15.400 What I want is when we have the documentary, okay?

00:00:20.240 I want that to be one of the themes.

00:00:22.160 Like, we don't believe in love.

00:00:23.620 You're in a constant state of disassociation.

00:00:26.300 Our kids live in terror every day.

00:00:30.000 Part of me, though, part of me thinks it might be the way that my mind is set up.

00:00:35.320 Would you like to know more?

00:00:36.660 Hello, Malcolm.

00:00:37.600 I'm excited to be speaking with you today because I have been really mulling over the concept of disassociation.

00:00:44.460 And you don't even seem to be that familiar with it.

00:00:47.340 I think it's because I consume a lot of left-leaning content.

00:00:50.340 But I frequently hear people talk about disassociating.

00:00:54.220 And especially when people are talking about abuse.

00:00:56.620 They're like, oh, like, I disassociated.

00:00:58.460 And it's like in the context of going through something terribly traumatic.

00:01:02.840 And it's invariably framed as a bad thing that it's happening.

00:01:07.680 Disassociation, bad.

00:01:09.440 And this strikes me as really weird because whenever I come across research on the effect of sort of different perspective thinking or taking,

00:01:17.500 like if you think in terms of the third person, it's only positive.

00:01:23.180 I've never actually seen research that frames thinking about yourself or a situation you're in from some distance as coming out negative.

00:01:31.560 And yet all these people on the left only talk about it in negative context, but in a sort of very different context.

00:01:37.780 So for a while, I've been operating under this assumption that basically we need to be thinking like Elmo talks.

00:01:44.360 And yet all these people think it's bad.

00:01:46.760 So I decided to educate myself.

00:01:47.900 I have no idea where you're going with it.

00:01:50.000 Because I've always heard dissociation is bad.

00:01:52.560 I have only heard of it in a – when you say dissociation, I think of grape.

00:01:56.460 I'm like, oh, she said dissociation is good.

00:01:58.800 It's good when you're being grape.

00:01:59.920 That's the only –

00:02:00.840 No, but it is – I mean, would you rather be in yourself while you're being bombed in a bad way or would you rather not? 0.95

00:02:08.480 Simone, you are a messed up person.

00:02:10.680 I'm just saying it's a good – it's a good psychological technology. 0.98

00:02:20.760 Good.

00:02:21.240 You're going to feel a little pinch now, mothers.

00:02:22.640 Sorry, Mr. Starch.

00:02:27.920 Whatever traumatized your son in his past, we'll find it.

00:02:33.480 Like, I'm the bad guy on the show, and I am totally not.

00:02:37.400 You are.

00:02:38.240 Well, I'm wearing my Warhammer clothing today.

00:02:42.900 Oh, yeah, you got your Warhammer clothing.

00:02:44.680 Someone pointed out that all I needed was an Inquisitor's hat and my outfit would be complete.

00:02:48.020 And I'm like, oh, yeah.

00:02:49.500 We need to get you an Inquisitor's hat.

00:02:51.320 We do.

00:02:51.660 Come on, guys.

00:02:52.060 Actually, I looked – there's not a lot of good – maybe I need to commission something.

00:02:57.560 But, yes, a Warhammer's Inquisitor's hat would be appropriate, and thank you for that comment.

00:03:02.260 Well, they're very Puritan-looking.

00:03:03.660 Come on.

00:03:03.920 They are.

00:03:04.300 They're a street – I know.

00:03:05.500 That's the way it works.

00:03:06.680 That's what techno-Puritanism is.

00:03:09.320 Okay, we didn't invent it.

00:03:10.520 We just discovered it.

00:03:11.700 Okay?

00:03:12.520 It's been out there.

00:03:13.780 Now, hold on.

00:03:14.200 No, they've got some good ones here.

00:03:15.480 I'll send you one right now.

00:03:16.800 Oh, really?

00:03:17.240 Oh.

00:03:19.580 But anyway, anyway, now that I hear it.

00:03:21.080 No, I just – we need to think like Elmo talks, all right?

00:03:26.680 And, you know, Malcolm needs to take a break, okay?

00:03:29.660 That is how our life needs to be.

00:03:31.240 Okay, explain this to me.

00:03:31.780 I went through the research, so I'm going to walk you through it.

00:03:33.740 You're driving me to disassociate right now, Simone, because you don't have your Inquisitor's hat on yet.

00:03:39.300 I know.

00:03:39.840 I know.

00:03:40.340 The trauma you're going through.

00:03:42.160 So I looked into it, though, because I'm like, okay, well, am I getting disassociation wrong?

00:03:45.680 So I looked into what that is.

00:03:47.180 I looked into the research on, you know, different perspective-taking interventions.

00:03:51.140 And ultimately, I think all of us should disassociate, always and proactively.

00:03:58.540 And I think people who frame it as a bad thing are missing the point and also are more like classic leftist progressives who take a victimhood mindset and who take a –

00:04:07.140 Simone, do you know what's going to come of this podcast?

00:04:09.980 Yeah.

00:04:10.180 Some leftist is going to clip it and be like, you know that Simone chick? 1.00

00:04:13.320 She's just – she's in a constant state of trauma response.

00:04:16.740 She's in a constant state of disassociation being married to Malcolm.

00:04:19.520 Here's the thing, actually.

00:04:22.720 We'll go into it, but a lot of the symptoms of disassociative identity disorder are, like, common traits of mine.

00:04:32.240 So this is great fodder.

00:04:33.660 But you got to dish it.

00:04:34.880 Grist for the mill, friend.

00:04:36.300 But anyway, this really matters.

00:04:37.720 It's like a broader meta-based camp thing because a recurring theme in our discussions has been about contextualization.

00:04:47.300 How do we contextualize this self?

00:04:49.280 What is consciousness?

00:04:50.360 Are we conscious?

00:04:51.240 What are we?

00:04:52.120 You know, this whole ship of Theseus thing, right?

00:04:54.120 Like, can you actually live forever when your views constantly change, when your cells switch out?

00:04:59.920 You know, like, we constantly talk about this in the context of that.

00:05:03.420 We talk about where we draw the definition of self, right?

00:05:06.640 How, like, conservatives have a sort of circle of self closest around, like, your core family and then your community or religion, whereas progressives, you know, the self is like, you know, foreigners, especially migrants who are refugees, et cetera, and, like, much less your own group.

00:05:22.640 If you're white, then it's hatred of your own group. 0.68

00:05:24.660 So we talk about that kind of contextualization of identity.

00:05:28.540 We also talk about how identity politics have, you know, sort of ruined society.

00:05:33.080 And people are even commenting on the episode that we ran as we're recording today, which was on why there's been this rise of anti-Semitism.

00:05:40.140 And that a lot of people are kind of blaming Reform Jews for inventing identity politics and then just talking about how damaging identity politics as a concept has been.

00:05:50.800 And it really is very damaging to society to get people to associate more with, like, groups, like my group.

00:05:58.160 And I would note for that episode, I do think that Reform Jews played a role in inventing identity politics, but I don't think a bigger role than, like, the Unitarian Universalists.

00:06:06.900 Yeah, and you pointed that out.

00:06:07.900 And I think blaming, you know, real Jews for what Reform Jews are doing is about as bad as blaming, like, real Christians on what Unitarian Universalists are doing, right? 0.65

00:06:18.320 That's a very valid point, yeah.

00:06:20.120 But anyway, identity politics are bad.

00:06:22.080 I don't care who invented them. 1.00

00:06:23.380 They suck. 0.98

00:06:23.980 So, you know, we need to have a lot of different conversations about the contextualization of self and me and how we view ourselves and our lived experience, to use a term commonly used on the left. 0.98

00:06:36.720 Because it's important and it is profoundly, it has a profound effect on our life and on society.

00:06:42.940 And so this is an important conversation to have, and that's why we're getting into it.

00:06:46.240 You've never even thought about it.

00:06:47.540 So let's first start with what people are talking about when they talk about disassociation, especially with regard to disassociation in moments of trauma and abuse.

00:06:57.780 So people are usually describing disassociation as a mental shutoff, where the mind disconnects from feelings and the body or surroundings to get through something overwhelming or unsafe.

00:07:10.100 It's a common, often automatic trauma response when someone is going through something really tough.

00:07:16.360 So clinically, it's a process where thoughts or feelings or memories or a sense of identity become disconnected from one another.

00:07:24.540 And it exists on a spectrum of mild zoning out to more severe states where a person feels detached from reality or themselves.

00:07:31.960 Like you'll hear people say things like, you know, I was watching myself go through this or something.

00:07:38.540 They'll use language like, I was watching it happen from outside my body, or it felt like a dream or like a movie.

00:07:44.680 And then during versus after the traumatic experience where disassociation happens, it can occur basically while it's happening, but it can also happen after where you might have patchy or missing memories or difficulty feeling emotions.

00:08:02.720 And basically, when disassociation is frequent or uncontrollable, and if it interferes with daily life, though this is a very subjective evaluation, in my opinion, it can be diagnosed as a dissociative disorder.

00:08:19.160 For example, depersonalization or derealization disorder, which I'd never heard of before.

00:08:24.380 Disassociative identity disorder, which I had heard of before.

00:08:27.260 And these are actual mental health conditions in which a person has ongoing problems with memory or identity or perception or a sense of self because of repeated or severe disassociation, which is typically linked with trauma.

00:08:39.440 And it goes beyond ordinary zoning out and starts to interfere with life and relationship and functioning.

00:08:45.520 So that there are multiple types of it.

00:08:47.480 There's dissociative amnesia where episodes of memory loss and just basically like, I don't remember this happening, or I don't remember this thing about me, or life events that may have been traumatic, like they just have no memory of it, or forgetfulness, or people enter like fugue states where they could travel or wander with no memory of it later.

00:09:06.780 There's also depersonalization or depersonalization disorder, which I'd not heard of, like I said, persistent or recurring feeling of being detached from one's own body or experiences, which is depersonalization.

00:09:19.200 And then there's the feeling that the world around you is unreal or foggy or dream life, which dreamlike, which is derealization.

00:09:26.200 Even though technically you understand, like on an intellectual, factual level, you know that the things that are happening around you were real.

00:09:32.880 And then there's disassociative identity disorder, or DID, which is also called multiple personality disorder, which I think you've said isn't really real.

00:09:42.680 Yeah, so the preponderance of evidence is that this is like being trans or something. 0.85

00:09:46.600 It's one of these disorders.

00:09:48.460 Yeah, so I don't really think that has that much to do with this.

00:09:52.100 But what I think is, one, I think this is funny, because as you know from just living with me, I don't remember anything.

00:09:59.080 You're like, do you remember me talking about this on our podcast?

00:10:01.580 And I'm like, nope, no memory.

00:10:03.080 Or like, do you remember this movie we watched?

00:10:04.500 And I'm like, I don't remember any of that.

00:10:06.180 And I have to write everything down or take pictures of things, or I just don't.

00:10:10.280 Well, so Simone, you're telling me that the only way you get through life with me is being in a constant state of disassociation.

00:10:16.640 What I want is when we have the documentary, okay?

00:10:21.520 I want that to be one of the themes.

00:10:23.400 Like, we don't believe in love.

00:10:24.860 You're in a constant state of disassociation.

00:10:27.500 Our kids live in terror every day.

00:10:30.880 Part of me, though, part of me thinks it might be the way that my mind is set up, like my operating system.

00:10:37.780 Like, or just, I think it could be, it could have a genetic factor.

00:10:41.660 And I don't know, maybe this isn't true.

00:10:43.260 Other parents can chime in in the comments.

00:10:45.220 But like, our kids claim to have a bunch of memories that aren't real.

00:10:49.220 Like, Torsten talking about learning karate in the jungle with his grandfather.

00:10:54.600 Like, I learned, wait, what?

00:10:56.640 Torsten, come on.

00:10:57.180 He comes up with all these stories.

00:10:59.300 Well, he always says, if he doesn't know where he learned something, he'll just say, well, I learned it when I was a baby from my grandfather.

00:11:05.340 Yeah, or like, or he'll have some kind of backstory.

00:11:08.100 But my favorite was about learning karate in the jungle with his grandfather.

00:11:11.200 I'm like, what kind of backstory are you building, man?

00:11:13.900 I learned karate in the jungle with my grandfather.

00:11:14.620 Like, yes, you did, Torsten.

00:11:16.400 We are going with that now.

00:11:17.860 Like, 100 freaking percent.

00:11:20.700 That was just amazing.

00:11:22.320 But I think maybe it's just genetic or it's the way that I, like, I don't ruminate on things.

00:11:27.340 And I think I'm a lot less stressed and happier because of it.

00:11:31.120 And so maybe I'm such a fan of this concept of disassociation because I'm like, yeah, what's the problem with that?

00:11:36.700 Like, and you know how, like, sometimes I reboot?

00:11:38.860 Like, you'll find me, like, literally zoning out, uh-oh, like, staring at an open fridge.

00:11:44.400 And then I'll be like, my name is Simone and I am.

00:11:46.440 And then I reboot and I'm like, oh, I'm looking for string cheese for Torsten.

00:11:49.500 And like, oh, I'll find myself again.

00:11:51.020 But I have to reboot with my name is Simone and I am because I forget it.

00:11:55.420 But I don't know.

00:11:56.460 Like, I don't know what's going on, Malcolm.

00:12:00.160 But what I think is happening is it is obviously horrible when people are abused or mistreated.

00:12:06.440 It's not, I'm not, I'm not trivializing that.

00:12:09.740 What I think may be happening is that the extreme hardship people have experienced that leads them to innovate or responsibly develop disassociation as a coping mechanism has uncovered a survival mechanism that is both useful in these extreme environments, but also could be very useful in everyday mundane life.

00:12:30.140 And here's the thing, the research backs it up.

00:12:33.080 What?

00:12:33.860 Come on.

00:12:34.760 No, it does.

00:12:35.420 No.

00:12:35.880 No, it does.

00:12:37.160 It does.

00:12:37.720 Because I've come across all these different studies.

00:12:39.320 And like, I didn't really put it together until I really started harrumphing and thinking about all these people talking about disassociation negatively.

00:12:46.640 Because you know how I used to save all these studies?

00:12:48.820 I sort of stopped doing it when I could just ask AI and find any study I was interested in learning about.

00:12:53.780 I used to save studies that were like, oh, this is useful.

00:12:56.040 This is useful.

00:12:56.620 And a bunch of the studies that I'd found, there was a very common theme of like, oh, like if you're having a conflict as a couple, you know, just have the couple like outline it or discuss it as though they're discussing another couple's problems and they're going to build a better solution.

00:13:10.640 Or like, you know, if you're trying to get yourself to say, okay, okay.

00:13:13.740 I'm agreeing with you more here.

00:13:14.960 You're persuading me.

00:13:16.100 Well, that's the thing is it's framed in such a different context that you don't connect the two, but they're the same thing.

00:13:24.120 So here's the thing.

00:13:24.980 So several lines of research, not just the whole like conflict resolution among couples, suggested taking a third party or distanced perspective.

00:13:34.640 But distance is just another word for disassociated.

00:13:37.200 Third party is just another word for disassociated from one's own life.

00:13:41.200 So that's third person writing or future self age, progressed image interaction, that kind of thing can help with emotion regulation.

00:13:48.460 It can help with planning and it can even help with some health related behaviors.

00:13:53.200 So the following I'm going to summarize is, is just justice.

00:13:56.040 And you can ask any AI, just ask any AI about this.

00:13:58.840 And for those who follow us on Substack or on Patreon, I'm going to include all my notes in this and links to sources in the show notes.

00:14:04.980 I asked both Brock and Perplexity, they pulled up a bunch of studies.

00:14:08.420 Here's what Brock found that they found mostly the same research, but okay, let's, let's go through some of it.

00:14:13.420 So there's one sort of cluster of themes, which is just self distancing.

00:14:17.020 Like in other words, taking a third person perspective or visual fly on the wall view disassociation, right?

00:14:23.880 Oh, like it was like watching a movie.

00:14:26.760 Except when you do it proactively, it's actually really effective.

00:14:29.900 So research, research led primarily by a guy named Ethan Cross, and then Oslam Iduck demonstrates that adopting a self distance perspective, like thinking about oneself in the third person using one's name or visualizing from an observer's viewpoint, just the Elmo approach.

00:14:47.200 Elmo thinks this reduces emotional reactivity and promotes adaptive reflection on personal situations, including pain and conflicts and stress.

00:14:56.760 So in both 2005 and 2008 research that Cross was on and Iduck was on one of them, they, they found that participants reflecting on negative experiences like anger or depression from a self distance perspective showed lower emotional and physiological reactivity, like lower blood pressure.

00:15:15.540 So like your actual cortisol levels here are lower compared to a self immersed first person view, the self distancing facilitated reconstructing events rather than recounting them reducing stress.

00:15:26.240 So you're not reliving the trauma, which is exactly what was described in that one of two forms of disassociation where it's happening after the fact where people are distancing themselves from the traumatic event, but it doesn't have to be traumatic.

00:15:37.980 It could be that time where you could be that time where you had road rage or that time you relate to class or that time you bombed on a test or that time you embarrassed yourself in front of friends or colleagues, right?

00:15:46.340 So in 2010, Iduck and Cross found that spontaneous self distancing during reflection on conflicts predicted less rumination, lower emotional reactivity over time, and more problem solving behavior in couples interactions.

00:15:59.640 So this can make your relationships more productive, which is very different from the way that people talk about disassociation in the, in the context of relationships, they always talk about it in terms of like, oh, this enables the abuse to keep happening because it allows you to tolerate it essentially is what they're trying to argue.

00:16:17.720 But this points out that when properly applied, it helps you problem solve and resolve the conflicts.

00:16:25.360 So it's, it's like saying, you know, like, oh, like she drank water and she died of water poisoning.

00:16:30.940 Like it's a tool you it's, it's, it's not good or bad.

00:16:34.920 In 2014, they found that third person self-talk, like, why is Simone upset?

00:16:39.580 If I were doing it for myself, why is Alma upset?

00:16:42.600 Reduced emotional reactivity under stress, including in socially anxious individuals.

00:16:47.300 Hello, that's me without requiring extra cognitive effort.

00:16:51.440 And, and this was supported by ERP and fMRI evidence showing decreased activity in brain regions linked to emotional pain.

00:16:58.980 So you, people can't just be like, oh, this is just subjective reports.

00:17:01.680 No, like they're doing functional MRIs.

00:17:03.920 It's so good that I forced you to dissociate.

00:17:06.420 Thank God.

00:17:07.420 Horrendous, horrendous behavior.

00:17:10.240 You're going to run wild with this.

00:17:11.700 How do so many people get the idea that it's a bad thing?

00:17:13.840 Like in the moment though, it's also really useful.

00:17:17.300 So we're not talking just about reflecting on other events, but they, in this case, Mosser et al in 2017 found that silent third person self-talk quickly.

00:17:25.480 That is within one second, lower distress when viewing aversive images or recalling painful memories, aiding emotion regulation for pain, like experiences.

00:17:34.140 So like if you're going through something rough and you immediately try to recontextualize yourself, like if you sort of proactively disassociate, like intentionally, it'll, it'll be less painful as it happens to you.

00:17:45.560 And then Grossman and Cross in 2014 found that self-distancing enhanced wise reasoning about interpersonal conflict, reducing bias and promoting balanced perspectives.

00:17:54.600 So it's making you a better colleague, friend, lover, spouse, whatever, a parent, like it's just, it's a smart thing to do.

00:18:03.720 And these effects extend to reducing reactivity in PTSD veterans, though some subjective distress duds did persist.

00:18:11.280 But I mean, obviously if you've been through something crazy, of course, but it does improve also interpersonal criticism delivery.

00:18:17.760 Because, you know, when, when you, when you detach things from yourself emotionally, obviously they get better.

00:18:22.240 Another thing, and this is not, this is a little different, but you know, this is something that I do a lot and I want to get into it a little bit is the concept of temporal distancing, like thinking about your future self or a broader time perspective.

00:18:33.640 So right now we're recording this in January.

00:18:36.060 This is the month of future day in our, in our techno Puritan family.

00:18:39.460 That's our religion.

00:18:40.300 And this is one in which we try to get our kids to begin thinking about the long-term future and future generations and the future police and identifying with the long-term future.

00:18:49.620 And throughout my entire life, I have done things like right to myself in the future and really contextualize myself as just one link in an unbroken chain.

00:18:57.960 Like I'm just serving the concept of future Simone, which is in turn serving the concept of future generations and human flourishing.

00:19:06.140 Like I, it's very disassociative, but on a more granular level, just in terms of like, oh, can we make people happier or like healthier?

00:19:15.160 There's, there is really interesting research on this concept of temporal distancing.

00:19:18.660 So it's not just a weird techno Puritan thing to be super into stuff like this.

00:19:22.420 So it really just broadly involves viewing situations from a future oriented or broadened temporal lens and Brunhelm and Senegal and I, I duck again, the same guy who did the other like distanced studies in 2015 found that adopting a temporal distance, like this too shall pass reduced emotional distress and stress reactivity by focusing on impermanence.

00:19:46.580 You know, when you know, when you know that you're just kind of like going through this blip in time and that time.

00:19:50.340 Are you saying that this is what incel should be doing?

00:19:52.340 I mean, I can imagine no one in society that's more traumatized than our incel fans.

00:19:56.460 But, but they don't, they can't necessarily say this too shall pass.

00:20:00.180 It's dark, but.

00:20:01.720 Well, their life will pass one day.

00:20:03.600 I mean.

00:20:03.900 That's true.

00:20:04.720 That's true.

00:20:05.380 And they can also just make tow it like.

00:20:08.620 Go see our episode on men just choosing to raise kids on their own.

00:20:13.020 I think it's just so based.

00:20:14.300 It's super cool.

00:20:15.440 And then Chishima et al in 2021 found that writing letters to or from one's future self during COVID-19 in this case increased temporal distancing and immediately decreased negative affect and it boosted positive affect.

00:20:27.720 So it can really help to just put things in perspective if you're going through something stressful, like say, I don't know, a global pandemic.

00:20:35.440 And then White et al in 2018 found that self distancing from future stressors, like visualizing them from afar, reduced vivid negative imagery and facilitated adaptive coping.

00:20:45.700 So just in general, like being less stressed, thinking with that temporal distance is really helpful.

00:20:51.080 And then sort of along those lines, I remember reading about these and I found them really interesting studies that had people see like AI age diversions of themselves caused some interesting effects.

00:21:02.960 So research by Hal Esner Hirschfeld focuses on enhancing continuity with one's future self, particularly through visualizations of an aged self.

00:21:12.160 So in 2009, he found that there was higher future self continuity, like feeling connected to your future self.

00:21:18.100 Owning this used to be something that you like had to pay a bunch of money to do or have specialized software.

00:21:21.940 I know, I know.

00:21:22.340 You could just like throw your image into Grok and be like, show me old.

00:21:25.460 I want to show, I want to see myself bald.

00:21:27.820 I've been wanting to see that since I was a kid.

00:21:28.940 Ew.

00:21:29.220 No, because your family's never going to, no, you just need to see yourself like old with white hair because you're never going to go bald.

00:21:34.460 I'll never be bald in my life.

00:21:35.960 Maybe I should see what I look like with a beard.

00:21:37.660 I'll never have a beard either.

00:21:38.760 I don't, I don't know.

00:21:40.300 Okay.

00:21:40.760 Well, yeah, do it and put it in this video.

00:21:42.740 I don't know.

00:21:43.800 Don't.

00:21:44.800 People can say if I, if I look better, like, should I,

00:21:48.080 if I have had a beard or be bald, you know what I'm going to do?

00:21:52.700 Oh, I would.

00:21:53.480 Yeah.

00:21:53.700 I am curious to see what our audience says about you having a beard.

00:21:56.680 Cause everyone's like, well, all he needs to do is just present as more masculine and then your audience will respect you.

00:22:04.080 And I guess a lot of people don't realize, like when I don't have my glasses on, I actually have a lot of features that like look maxers go.

00:22:12.840 I know you just take them off.

00:22:14.120 And I know like I did some title cards to photos of you when, when you didn't have your glasses on and people were like, 0.98

00:22:20.000 it's literally like those stupid B movies where like the boy takes the teenage girl's glasses off. 0.97

00:22:28.660 And he's like, oh, you're beautiful. 1.00

00:22:31.200 You, you look, you look masculine.

00:22:33.800 Then we went, we did the viral rounds recently.

00:22:36.120 One of the top comments was looks max jaw or.

00:22:39.120 You have an amazing jaw.

00:22:40.420 I forget.

00:22:40.780 And your cheekbones are fantastic.

00:22:41.900 Which I think is a term in the looks max community.

00:22:44.360 Oh, mogging. 0.96

00:22:44.960 Yeah.

00:22:45.480 Yeah.

00:22:45.840 Which, which is funny that they, they could see it, but through the glasses and people.

00:22:50.060 They're able to look at actual morphology.

00:22:51.940 Like they're looking at the pieces.

00:22:53.360 I think a lot of people just can't see beyond thick glasses.

00:22:56.380 I think that you, and I wear them intentionally.

00:22:58.500 I want people to think I'm a nerd.

00:22:59.660 No, we, we, we want to trigger people.

00:23:01.820 That's the thing is people are like, well, just get rid of the glasses.

00:23:04.000 I hate their glasses.

00:23:05.360 And tons of people on Twitter have even gone to the, the, and I've sent you some of the

00:23:08.920 photos of texts and triangle glasses.

00:23:10.580 They're like, well, he needs thick triangle glasses.

00:23:12.520 If you're going to do this, wow.

00:23:13.740 Like the glasses practically have their own morph.

00:23:16.240 Cutler and gross, by the way, guys, amazing brand.

00:23:18.420 Love them.

00:23:18.720 You know, my signature glass, if people don't know this, they used to be circular wireframed.

00:23:22.980 Yeah.

00:23:23.180 They were barely visible.

00:23:24.180 Yeah.

00:23:24.620 I only started these glasses right before this show.

00:23:27.820 Yeah.

00:23:28.900 So if you go to, because you got these for me first to cutler and gross.

00:23:32.000 And then your mom was like, I love these glasses.

00:23:36.100 I mean, she got you those as a gift.

00:23:38.860 They're a gift from his late mother.

00:23:40.620 People get off his, but also they troll people.

00:23:42.720 So we're not going to stop anyway.

00:23:45.100 But anyway, the point I was making is, is this digital manipulation of pictures and stuff

00:23:49.500 like this.

00:23:50.020 What, what, how does it help you go, go through that?

00:23:52.240 So it, it, it, it helps.

00:23:54.400 It encourages long-term planning behavior.

00:23:57.720 Hirschfeld found in one 2011 piece of research that interacting with age progressed versus

00:24:02.420 virtual renderings of oneself increased future oriented decisions, such as delaying rewards.

00:24:07.280 So that's amazing.

00:24:08.620 And we're checking out on 2018 found that enhancing future self-continuity via letter

00:24:14.100 writing promoted healthier behaviors like exercise and reduced unethical choices by prioritizing

00:24:20.960 long-term benefits.

00:24:22.240 And then other related interventions like vivid future self-visualization.

00:24:26.660 So like cheaper before the age of AI, because they didn't want to pay.

00:24:30.000 You're basically sociopath maxing.

00:24:31.600 It improved ethical and health related planning.

00:24:33.960 No, it made people more ethical, not less ethical. 0.58

00:24:36.520 You're, you're, you're an ethical sociopath. 1.00

00:24:38.480 It's like the ethical slut. 1.00

00:24:39.840 Like. 0.99

00:24:40.100 Yeah.

00:24:40.480 Yes. 0.65

00:24:40.980 I'm the ethical sociopath.

00:24:42.280 That's, that's called pragmatism.

00:24:44.240 Malcolm.

00:24:44.980 Pragmatism is, is ethio sociopathy, ethical sociopathy, I think, broadly.

00:24:49.340 But the point is that just across a bunch of different domains, it's super clear that disassociating

00:24:56.920 from who you are right now, like associating with your future self or looking at yourself

00:25:01.600 in the third person, just elbowing yourself is good.

00:25:05.060 And the, the basically disassociation is reactive and self-distance is proactive.

00:25:10.160 And the difference in framing I've encountered seems to come down to perspective and specifically

00:25:16.080 perspective based on an internal versus an external locus of control.

00:25:20.880 And, and the biggest criticism of disassociation, like I said, is that it basically, it's just

00:25:25.860 too effective.

00:25:26.780 It's so effective that it contributes to PTSD symptoms or can increase the risk of re-victimization.

00:25:33.700 Like, oh, you'll stay with this partner who's causing trauma because you're able to endure

00:25:39.180 it.

00:25:39.540 Right.

00:25:40.100 Cause like.

00:25:40.520 The reason why it's so useful, I think it's because it prevents the greatest sins, but

00:25:46.960 also the core motivations of people who are in the urban monoculture, which is to say,

00:25:53.960 attempting to sort of maximize self-acceptance or in the moment, like personal experiences,

00:26:00.380 like pleasure, et cetera.

00:26:02.220 Right.

00:26:02.420 And a lot of the quests that you see on an urban monocultured life is this.

00:26:08.280 Very embodied.

00:26:09.280 Very embodied.

00:26:10.560 Very, I'm looking to find myself, accept myself.

00:26:14.680 So, and we say just at step one, no, none of that matters.

00:26:20.520 Yeah.

00:26:20.980 Yeah.

00:26:21.200 Drop I, drop me, drop the concept of self.

00:26:24.840 You are nothing.

00:26:25.980 You are, you are a conveyor, a vector of your values.

00:26:30.080 You are intentionally chosen values, your objective function.

00:26:33.860 You exist only to serve it.

00:26:35.800 You are an ephemeral blip in, in the, the continuous chain that is humanity or whatever

00:26:41.660 it is that humanity eventually becomes.

00:26:44.200 Humble yourself before that.

00:26:46.000 Totally.

00:26:46.320 So I, I, I, I, yeah, I'm just, here's me saying everyone should proactively disassociate and

00:26:53.320 not just because it creates better internal results in terms of mental and physical and

00:26:58.080 financial health and better ethical decision-making, but it also just produces good social results.

00:27:03.880 Like when you, when you read classics, like how to win friends and influence people, Dale

00:27:08.100 Carnegie just goes on and on about how people's favorite word is their first name.

00:27:12.740 And like all the social, like how to be charismatic experts talk about how you should focus on other

00:27:18.040 people and what they're doing and what they're thinking.

00:27:19.700 And, and the worst kind of bore in any social context is the person who always brings it back

00:27:25.040 to themselves.

00:27:25.580 Who's just so obsessed with themselves.

00:27:27.240 And we also talk about people who, who have brain rot.

00:27:29.880 We just constantly talk about, I'm going to take a shower and I'm going to do this.

00:27:33.000 Or like, I don't know, they just talk about their, their stuff and them all the time.

00:27:36.960 No one cares about those people.

00:27:38.440 So no one's even going to like you.

00:27:39.900 If you're that kind of fully embodied person who just can't get away from I and me.

00:27:44.840 What?

00:27:45.120 Yeah.

00:27:45.280 I guess we even talk about this.

00:27:46.760 We even have to talk about this in the context of sexuality, how bad it is to identify with

00:27:50.600 the things that arouse you again, you, you already were disassociation pilled.

00:27:55.600 You already were all about disassociating.

00:27:58.560 You just didn't realize it.

00:28:02.000 Well, okay.

00:28:03.000 So, no, I, I agree that, that, that, that this overly embodied sense, you, it is important

00:28:07.960 to be maximally disassociated at all times in all decision-making.

00:28:12.480 Yes.

00:28:13.560 So yeah, I, I agree with that.

00:28:15.840 And I even wonder if I can start.

00:28:17.320 And it's great that I don't remember anything that happens because I'm just equally delighted

00:28:20.820 by every time we watch a movie for like the 11th time.

00:28:24.340 See, this is why I can watch Home Alone with the kids like endlessly during the holiday season

00:28:28.680 and you can't take it more than twice.

00:28:30.640 Cause I'm like, Oh, you can't believe that just happened.

00:28:34.220 I can't believe it.

00:28:35.980 He got hit in the face with an iron and he survived this movie.

00:28:39.760 It defies, it defies biology.

00:28:41.980 That would be, since now we're doing homeschooling, that would be an amazing, like he has to

00:28:47.020 be older for this, but like to do a detailed, we'll have him do like a YouTube video on this.

00:28:52.320 I'm like the detailed biology of Home Alone, like exactly what would actually happen if

00:28:58.340 all of these things took place.

00:28:59.360 I know they will have done YouTube.

00:29:00.380 Like the temperature at which skin burns and what degree burns would he have and what would

00:29:04.800 actually, anyway, and also the physics, the physics of Home Alone.

00:29:09.440 We're going to have so much fun homeschooling.

00:29:10.780 I can't, I can't believe it.

00:29:13.440 You are the weird one, Simone, and the wrong one.

00:29:16.860 I am not Simone.

00:29:18.560 No, you are not Simone.

00:29:19.660 You are a third dimensional entity.

00:29:22.660 I am, I am, I am operating the puppet that is Simone that exists to serve our objective 0.61

00:29:28.940 function, which is long-term human flourishing.

00:29:31.720 Yeah.

00:29:32.520 I like that.

00:29:33.100 I know.

00:29:33.380 I mean, I, I think you're broadly right with all of this.

00:29:35.840 Why do you think progressives hate it so much?

00:29:38.220 I think because progressives are deeply embodied in the, in the concept of me and my feelings

00:29:44.820 and, and they are way too much in their heads about everything.

00:29:47.760 They make everything, they're, they're just, they're so shoved into their brains and their

00:29:53.280 internal rumination.

00:29:54.600 And this is how you end up with everything from spoonies to trans people, because they're 1.00

00:29:59.200 overthinking it.

00:30:00.120 They're like, ah, like I kind of like, ah, like, you know, women's shoes. 0.95

00:30:04.940 And they're like, I'm a woman.

00:30:06.180 When like, no, you're, you're just overthinking it.

00:30:08.120 You're way too much in your head.

00:30:09.220 Get out of your head. 0.92

00:30:10.120 Disassociate.

00:30:10.660 Stop it.

00:30:11.700 And they're like, yes, I'm disassociating.

00:30:13.460 It's bad.

00:30:13.880 And I'm like, no, you're disassociating.

00:30:15.360 You will make sure that anybody who works for us disassociates. 0.76

00:30:19.840 It's the only way they're going to survive.

00:30:21.760 I think you're right.

00:30:23.240 It's so antithetical to the urban monoculture's value set that they can't understand because

00:30:27.360 it's not actually like a negative experience to disassociate.

00:30:30.600 Well, no, but again, the reason why people disassociate, the reason why it happens spontaneously

00:30:35.100 is it is a survival mechanism.

00:30:37.080 It makes the intolerable tolerable.

00:30:39.580 And it, how can it be so illogical or like, how, how is it so crazy to extrapolate from that?

00:30:44.600 Like, okay, well, if disassociation makes the, the intolerable, most horrible experience

00:30:48.980 as possible, like your leg is being cut off, you disassociate, right?

00:30:51.740 Like terrible things do happen to people and they do disassociate in very intense ways.

00:30:56.180 So, okay.

00:30:57.260 So then, and, but also then now you're waiting in a grocery store line and you're pissed

00:31:00.960 off because someone is wearing stinky perfume and you're like, you disassociate a little

00:31:05.120 and it becomes a lot less stressful.

00:31:06.980 And here's the thing, like people, but there's, there's, there's this like reverse hedonic

00:31:12.720 treadmill where like thing, you know, good things, like the best thing possible happening

00:31:19.320 to you, you normalize to it, but also the worst thing possible happening to you, you normalize

00:31:23.260 to it. 0.97

00:31:23.640 But also people start also equally making the worst of really stupid, bad things, right? 0.98

00:31:28.840 Like the most privileged people in the world. 0.98

00:31:30.920 And this is all like, this is why we have spoonies.

00:31:32.600 This is why we have the most wealthy societies ever that have the best amenities ever being

00:31:38.280 miserable, right?

00:31:39.080 Is they still are stressed and miserable and afraid.

00:31:43.720 And so I think they should be reacting to things with coping mechanisms that allow them

00:31:48.820 to, to, to not like, I feel like the cortisol level that people are experiencing driving

00:31:53.120 to work is not that different in many cases from the cortisol level.

00:31:57.280 People were experiencing like, you know, running, running from bears in the woods or like possibly

00:32:03.720 dealing with even some more like scenarios.

00:32:05.620 Like people are just, they have such bad mental health these days that they're having

00:32:09.320 that same level of reaction.

00:32:11.380 I mean, people weren't being treated with, with severe anxiety disorders the same way

00:32:16.880 in world war II.

00:32:17.820 I mean, they were still experiencing severe anxiety, but I don't know.

00:32:21.600 They weren't coping with it as, as, as, as well.

00:32:23.960 I feel like people are coping worse with far easier problems today than they were in the

00:32:30.000 past.

00:32:30.720 So again, disassociate.

00:32:32.900 So I, I, what was I going to say?

00:32:35.140 It's interesting that the pronatalist movement advocates, right?

00:32:38.600 The ones who are like, well, humanity is good that we're saying, well, and of course we

00:32:42.040 say this from an external perspective.

00:32:43.680 Like I don't actually, you know, embody myself.

00:32:46.820 And I think that this is an interesting point that the antinatalists often heavily embody

00:32:51.320 themselves, which is in part, I think why they have such hatred for their own lives.

00:32:57.040 Whereas the pronatalists typically search for meaning in something other than their 1.00

00:33:01.760 subjective experience of reality, which makes meaning very easy to find.

00:33:06.480 And I think that that's what comes with disassociation.

00:33:08.720 And that sort of core to this philosophy is that meaning in life comes through something

00:33:15.440 other than your subjective personal experiences of reality.

00:33:18.740 Yeah.

00:33:19.640 Yeah.

00:33:21.600 See, this is more interesting than you thought it would be, isn't it?

00:33:23.780 I'm actually going to make this one of the religious episodes.

00:33:26.000 So I'll put it on the techno Puritan website and everything.

00:33:28.640 That's so cool.

00:33:30.100 Yay.

00:33:30.360 I think you did a good enough one.

00:33:33.280 I did a religion part of the religion dissociate all the time.

00:33:38.160 That is, that is the most Calvinist thing ever.

00:33:40.620 Just the total check out.

00:33:45.240 I love it.

00:33:46.140 I love it.

00:33:46.940 Well, I also love you very, very much and I'm excited to do another episode with you.

00:33:53.300 Another conversation.

00:33:54.500 I love our talks.

00:33:55.900 Thank you.

00:33:56.600 Yes.

00:33:57.160 All right.

00:33:57.780 Have a good one, Simone.

00:33:58.700 Love you.

00:33:59.500 Love you too.

00:34:00.140 Love you too.

00:34:02.920 Okay.

00:34:03.480 Actually.

00:34:07.340 By the way, I heard this from the, oh God, what is it called?

00:34:12.020 What's that podcast?

00:34:13.040 That's about fertility ill-conceived the one about natalism that I've, I've started listening

00:34:19.820 to.

00:34:20.520 They mentioned in one of their podcast episodes, sperm racing, and I need to look into it.

00:34:28.240 Like some young kid raised maybe more than $10 million to do competitive sperm racing events.

00:34:40.720 Sport racing, bird racing? 0.56

00:34:43.420 As in the stuff in ejaculate. 0.98

00:34:47.720 Sperm racing. 0.97

00:34:48.440 Oh yes.

00:34:48.920 I heard about that.

00:34:49.800 I had not heard about that.

00:34:52.680 I guess I can kind of see the investment case for it in an age of sports betting and celebrity,

00:34:58.840 like, well, content creator culture.

00:35:01.560 Like, whose would win?

00:35:03.100 Joe Rogan or Donald Trump?

00:35:04.760 You know, that kind of thing, right?

00:35:05.820 Like, I could kind of see it, but there are some issues with it in that the, the actual

00:35:12.540 races are not live.

00:35:14.280 They are recorded and then played at the live events.

00:35:17.740 So it's not, it's not even like it'd be, it would be way too easy to rig.

00:35:22.480 And that's my biggest issue with it.

00:35:25.720 That's your biggest issue.

00:35:27.700 Yeah.

00:35:28.180 I mean, what, I, how is it that?

00:35:31.480 I mean, I think it's, it's better than, for example, dog racing.

00:35:35.440 I like, I like horse racing, but mostly because of the names, the names are fantastic.

00:35:41.580 I think what adds an appeal to this is among men, any man can participate and they don't 0.53

00:35:48.680 necessarily have to train for it.

00:35:50.560 Right.

00:35:50.740 Like you can't, you know, there've been all these instances in which like Elon Musk will

00:35:55.620 challenge Mark Zuckerberg to fight like an MMA fight.

00:35:59.580 And then they always get canceled because, oh, you'd have to train and like, you know,

00:36:05.120 you have to be in really good condition.

00:36:06.300 You have to know fighting technique, all these things.

00:36:08.380 Like it's way too much work.

00:36:10.080 Whereas the way that most men report preparing for things like this is, okay, well, I just

00:36:15.420 won't get any, any, any hot tubs and I won't drink for a little bit and I'll eat better.

00:36:19.500 Like there's not a whole lot you have to do to improve sperm quality.

00:36:25.380 I think you do need to do it, what, six months in advance or something.

00:36:28.980 I just, anyway, I could see it because we like to see famous people compete and this

00:36:34.740 allows famous people to compete in a way that is very tied to their identity and masculinity.

00:36:39.940 But I don't think they would.

00:36:41.740 Because they'd be afraid of their, their.

00:36:43.640 You don't know how good you are at this.

00:36:45.280 You have no idea from looking at yourself.

00:36:47.760 Go to an embryologist and be like, Hey, please.

00:36:49.940 Or just, I mean, there are, there are tons of, of services that will test your sperm

00:36:53.880 motility and sperm count and all sorts of things like that.

00:36:57.060 So you could, you could already self-assess before you ever promise faster than like 80%

00:37:05.140 of other sperm.

00:37:05.800 And you're like, okay.

00:37:06.360 Yeah.

00:37:06.640 Like I'll take my chances against.

00:37:09.620 That's too much effort to self-assess.

00:37:12.160 And it's not.

00:37:13.540 It literally is.

00:37:14.620 It is into a thing and send off your sample kit.

00:37:17.140 I don't get what's so difficult.

00:37:18.600 It's not a sample kit thing.

00:37:20.280 You'd have to go to a lab and it's worse than all of that because the category that

00:37:25.160 overlap with celebrity, like being older, being often, you know, slightly sedentary are also

00:37:33.620 going to overlap with lower sperm quality.

00:37:36.100 Well, that's one of the reasons I think why maybe it has some prominent backers is that

00:37:41.360 people want to raise awareness about the fact that male fertility does fall off.

00:37:47.400 This, I think it came up in the ill-conceived podcast because they felt it had strong natalist

00:37:53.560 undertones and that like, oh, this is actually just natalist propaganda, murmur, murmur.

00:37:57.660 And I realized why I like that podcast so much.

00:38:00.780 It's a snark podcast.

00:38:02.540 It's, it's really just snark, but make it about natalism.

00:38:06.980 And there's snark about everything.

00:38:08.440 I mean, you and I both love fundy snark.

00:38:10.100 There's lots of trad snark that I love.

00:38:12.580 I mean, who doesn't love snark?

00:38:14.180 And I feel like snark is more fun when it's adjacent to something that you actively like.

00:38:19.200 I love royal gossip, for example.

00:38:21.620 So royal snark is something I listen to a lot.

00:38:23.700 And there are lots of YouTubers whose full-time career is just being pissed about the royals.

00:38:30.960 Just, oh, I can't believe the Harry and Meghan's latest PR agent quit.

00:38:37.020 They've gone through 11 PR people in five years.

00:38:40.740 Can you believe they must be terrible people?

00:38:43.100 Snark, snark, snark.

00:38:44.380 I think it's just so great.

00:38:45.940 But like, isn't it wonderful though, when you can hear the snark and it's about people,

00:38:49.520 you know, you know, when they're like, oh, I can't, I hate those Collinses. 1.00

00:38:54.060 Oh, apology. 0.83

00:38:55.400 He's so terrible.

00:38:57.160 Oh my God.

00:38:57.700 Kevin Dolan.

00:38:59.280 And it's like, oh, like, you know, it's just.

00:39:01.460 They won't even talk about us.

00:39:02.980 We're like Voldemort to them.

00:39:04.400 Yeah.

00:39:04.640 They were, they were like, we're never going to do a full podcast on them.

00:39:07.920 Yeah.

00:39:08.520 I actually wrote to them and told them if they ever need to cover anything adjacent to us,

00:39:12.260 they should just search AI because we make our content really easy to index on, on AI.

00:39:17.880 Because it's, it's obviously going to be too hard for them to actually.

00:39:20.920 Do real research out.

00:39:22.680 They would die.

00:39:23.360 They would, they would, they would disassociate to use, you know.

00:39:28.060 Another podcaster I regularly listen to covered our viral interview.

00:39:30.860 Did you see that one I sent you?

00:39:33.240 Not beyond just the Romanian guy?

00:39:35.780 The black lady.

00:39:36.940 Which one?

00:39:38.940 I'll pull it up here.

00:39:40.180 Her name is Amala Ekoponobi.

00:39:44.720 She's got 2.5 million followers.

00:39:47.420 Wow.

00:39:49.120 I don't know.

00:39:50.020 Is she conservative?

00:39:51.140 Most of the.

00:39:52.180 Yeah.

00:39:52.400 She's a black conservative woman. 0.92

00:39:54.380 Young.

00:39:55.060 Younger than us.

00:39:55.700 Everyone's younger than us.

00:39:58.280 We're old.

00:40:00.260 Well, she's quite young.

00:40:01.480 I get the impression.

00:40:02.120 I think she's in her twenties or something.

00:40:03.660 Oh, okay.

00:40:04.440 And very reasonable takes.

00:40:05.940 Very like center line.

00:40:07.780 Nice.

00:40:08.440 Very nice.

00:40:09.980 Okay.

00:40:10.340 Sorry for chatting with you.

00:40:12.100 It just, it's nice to chat with you, but I'll, I'll get into the podcast now.

00:40:15.400 So here we go.

00:40:17.860 The brush and a bowl of mush.

00:40:19.420 Yeah.

00:40:20.220 The quiet old lady whispering.

00:40:23.000 Right.

00:40:24.660 Good night room.

00:40:25.700 Good night moon.

00:40:31.040 Good night cow jumping over the moon.

00:40:34.580 Good night light.

00:40:35.540 Where's the light?

00:40:36.760 Right there.

00:40:37.640 It takes your face.

00:40:39.080 Good night red balloon.

00:40:40.600 Where's the red balloon?

00:40:42.480 Where is it?

00:40:43.420 Right there.

00:40:44.300 There.

00:40:44.720 Oh, good night bears.

00:40:46.360 Good night chickens.

00:40:47.560 Good night kittens.

00:40:48.640 Good night kittens.

00:40:49.720 Good night glubs.

00:40:51.400 Glubs.

00:40:52.280 Good night gloves.

00:40:53.280 Good night clocks.

00:40:54.260 Good night clocks.

00:40:55.380 Good night, stars and moon.

00:40:57.100 Good night, stars and moon.

00:40:58.240 Good night, socks.

00:40:59.420 Good night, socks.

00:41:00.660 Good night, house.

00:41:01.820 Good night, mouse.

00:41:04.020 We don't say good night to our mouses, do we? 0.99

00:41:05.760 Do we kill them? 0.99

00:41:07.000 Yes, we do. 1.00

00:41:08.900 Good night, home.

Based Camp - December 31, 2025

Wokes Don't Want You to Know Dissociating is Scientifically Beneficial (The Data)

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