Dale Partridge - Is Christian Nationalism Biblical？ with Jeff Durbin and Dale Partridge

00:00:00.000 Welcome to a special audio and video edition of Real Christianity. My name is Dale Partridge

00:00:04.580 and in this episode I have a powerful discussion with Pastor Jeff Durbin where we unpack a biblical

00:00:09.920 definition of Christian nationalism. What does the term really mean? Is it supported by scripture

00:00:14.700 and how should Christians feel about it? But more than that, we also tackle post-millennial hope

00:00:19.860 and practical ways for Christians to be kingdom-minded in a fallen culture. All that and more

00:00:25.060 coming up right now.

00:00:30.000 Hey guys, welcome to this episode of Real Christianity. My name is Dale Partridge. I'm

00:00:48.280 here with Jeff Durbin. We're at Apologia Studios. We're going to be talking about an important

00:00:53.560 conversation, a touchy conversation for some, Christian nationalism. What does it mean? What's

00:00:58.660 biblical definition of that term there's so many people that are out there having different

00:01:04.020 perspectives different ideas about this term i'm going to turn it to you jeff what is like when you

00:01:10.180 think of christian nationalism what does it mean and when you think of a biblical uh example or

00:01:16.500 biblical definition of christian nationalism how should we be thinking about that faithfully

00:01:20.740 biblically yeah it's interesting because this uh terminology christian nationalism christian

00:01:25.860 nationalist is something that is becoming very popular. It's almost like you didn't even hear

00:01:31.400 this terminology three years ago, but now it's all over the place. People are doing news reports

00:01:36.900 on Christian nationalism and everything else. So when that first was being used, my first response

00:01:41.480 is, I don't really know who started this and what group this represents. So you're always fearful

00:01:46.520 sort of as a Christian, as a pastor, you're fearful saying, well, I've always believed the

00:01:52.840 gospel is always taught. The Great Commission says you want to win the nations to Christ,

00:01:56.520 so yes, you want all the nations to be Christian nations, but it was more like a confusing moment

00:02:01.280 of going, who's involved in this? Who created this terminology, and who's ahead of this movement?

00:02:07.900 Is there such a thing? And so, there's a leeriness to say, well, of course I believe that,

00:02:14.060 but I also don't want to get linked up with somebody.

00:02:15.920 Yeah, are you getting associated with a group of people that are extremists with an unbiblical view?

00:02:19.720 Exactly. And it's just a matter of seeing the Christian nationalism and understanding conceptually

00:02:25.820 that that's just the Great Commission. So what I've said about this in the last year is I've

00:02:31.180 said, why is everybody so surprised about this? Why is this such a shock? And I think there are

00:02:36.040 some very clear answers as to why it's so shocking, and that's that the evangelical

00:02:39.040 church in the West has stepped away from foundational principles related to the gospel

00:02:44.900 of the kingdom the authority of christ the lordship of christ over every detail of life

00:02:50.180 christ over culture all of that so it would make sense that the you know leftists liberals the

00:02:55.860 atheists the you know the humanists uh the secularists would hear wait you believe that

00:03:02.340 every nation should come under the authority of jesus you want everybody to to be sort of

00:03:07.700 like in a christian nation to understand yeah they're shocked by that because the christian

00:03:12.420 church in the west evangelical church has so stepped away from fundamental aspects of biblical

00:03:19.300 truth biblical revelation and the gospel itself and so it of course it's shocking to them to hear

00:03:25.700 that there are christians who believe that christ is king you know and this is this shouldn't be

00:03:31.780 shocking to the church now i understand that the world is going to have this element of um they

00:03:37.780 create their laws their secular government their secular laws and they would call it democratic

00:03:42.900 but as soon as a christian says well we actually want christian laws uh we become some sort of

00:03:48.500 extremist right yeah and and i think it comes down to another issue and that's the myth of neutrality

00:03:53.940 the myth of neutrality that that atheists constantly pretend the unbelievers constantly

00:03:58.020 pretend and unfortunately let's just be honest to failures within the christian community christians

00:04:03.780 have have um have held on to the myth of neutrality and pretended the myth of neutrality for a long

00:04:09.060 time and uh if you look in christian history christian history is is in no way um uh perfect

00:04:15.780 and it's not you can't point to any place in christian history where it was a utopia but you

00:04:19.860 can see the church being sanctified through time and doing things that are glorifying to god and

00:04:24.020 just right and true and you can see the christian church in history has had a pretty consistent

00:04:28.660 hold around the authority of christ over all things and so if you look at just the nation

00:04:32.980 that we're speaking from right now this great experience experiment that we're a part of

00:04:37.780 you can see early on when people are coming over um whether it's the huguenos the puritans the

00:04:44.740 pilgrims whoever they be when they're starting colonies it's in the atmosphere it's just assumed

00:04:51.460 that when we are creating a colony a culture a community a town or whatever that christ has

00:04:57.060 authority here that's just the assumption is the operating assumption when they're making their

00:05:01.380 laws you can look at the laws of new england you can look at the the the first uh case law system

00:05:07.140 that john j our first supreme court justice puts into place they're just quoting freely comfortably

00:05:13.780 and with peace they're quoting from the law of god the pentateuch they're quoting you know

00:05:19.140 easily from exodus easily from leviticus the assumption is is that um christ is king he has

00:05:26.820 authority so if we're going to ask a question about what is right and true and lovely and

00:05:30.740 beautiful in our culture or we're going to ask question of what's just we're going to look to

00:05:34.660 the law word of god to find out what that actually is and again it wasn't perfection but you see that

00:05:40.660 that's just the operating assumption is that christ is king and it's one of things i say

00:05:45.060 often i try to say as much as i can um we often say as christians very comfortably jesus is lord

00:05:51.780 not understanding that early on in the history of the church the first century in particular

00:05:56.180 saying jesus is lord is treasonous it's uh subversive yeah many were martyred by it you're

00:06:02.260 killed for it i mean the early christians i often say as again as much as i possibly can the early

00:06:06.580 christians weren't killed for worshiping this man named jesus rome is pagan you can worship whatever

00:06:12.660 you please the problem with the early christians is they were saying christ is king that he is

00:06:17.140 lord they wouldn't say kaiser kurios they wouldn't say that caesar is ultimate they said no jesus is

00:06:22.260 ultimate i can't say that i'll be a good citizen i'll be a great citizen i'll live peaceably i'll

00:06:27.860 pay my taxes but no caesar is not ultimate he's not lord jesus is lord for that they were killed

00:06:34.100 and so it's just been understood throughout christian history that christ is king of kings

00:06:39.620 this is what i always say we say it so easily king of kings and lord of lords but we don't really

00:06:44.660 think about the implications of that claim yes the implications of the claim is that christ is the

00:06:49.860 king the ruler the one with full authority over the kings of the earth today not someday but he

00:06:57.700 has all authority in heaven and on earth today that's a claim made by jesus before the ascension

00:07:03.060 before some very confused disciples yeah and lord of lords means he has authority over the lords of

00:07:08.340 the earth today so christians have been making that claim since the very beginning this isn't a

00:07:11.780 novelty yeah this is all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth and go therefore to

00:07:17.060 make disciples of all nations so this is again this is just when we think about creating christian

00:07:21.620 nations it is not a shocker it shouldn't be a shocker the problem is that we have a gap between

00:07:25.940 what the church says and what the church does right and that gap now has been going wait you're

00:07:31.620 actually saying that you're meaning what you say you're actually gonna to to to produce what you

00:07:37.060 actually say you're gonna produce that becomes threatening right to the secular culture one

00:07:40.180 thing that you said that was important yes you could read the mayflower compact you're gonna

00:07:44.500 see the christianity that the biblical uh bib line as as uh spurgeon would say bleeding out

00:07:50.980 of those documents you're going to see i read the inauguration of thanksgiving by george washington

00:07:56.180 it sounds like the apostle paul wrote it i mean you're just reading you're like this was our

00:08:00.980 president writing these things right it was again it was a part of the air and we are still writing

00:08:06.580 as a church and a culture on the coattails of that righteousness today and so what would you

00:08:12.900 say to somebody who claims themselves to be a christian a follower of christ would maybe even

00:08:18.660 say these words like king of kings lord of lords but actually you know is against the idea of

00:08:25.780 christianity influencing the government or christianity having some sort of interplay in

00:08:31.300 the culture at an influential level that would actually change the way that um that the culture

00:08:37.780 views authority yeah i would say to that person you you have a misunderstanding of the scope of

00:08:44.340 the gospel and uh typically what we understand the gospel to mean today is one aspect of the

00:08:51.220 gospel and that's reconciliation and peace with god through faith in christ uh we're talking about

00:08:56.020 things like the atonement itself we're talking about the imputation of righteousness god forgiving

00:09:00.820 our sins because of what's accomplished at the car at the cross so in other words what we understand

00:09:05.620 the gospel to mean today popularly in evangelicalism is this personal intimate relationship with jesus

00:09:13.220 that's really it yep is that you know jesus uh died for you and rose again so that you can have

00:09:18.020 a personal romance with him now i'm saying that to make sure that it's very clear like we're not

00:09:22.580 saying something else we're we're we're dumbing down the gospel itself to this personal intimate

00:09:27.860 relationship with jesus which by the way is true yeah i i am saved by him i am known by him i'm

00:09:34.020 loved by him my name was on his hands he understands uh my sins he forgave me my sins

00:09:40.980 it's finished it's very personal my name's in the book of life that is a personal name it's

00:09:45.380 mine but that's not all it is exactly so i would say that it's it's an it's a um it's

00:09:50.260 sort of a taking the gospel itself and squishing it down to one concept justification by faith

00:09:57.140 and really what you see jesus teaching and say just the gospel according to matthew

00:10:01.620 just read the first five chapters and you'll see that jesus very clearly understood and it's very

00:10:07.220 clearly being taught there in matthew that he has the royal right to the throne that's why his

00:10:11.620 genealogy is there yep uh because the king of the world who was going to have dominion over

00:10:16.180 the entire earth and the knowledge of god was going to cover the earth like the waters cover

00:10:19.460 the sea and all the nations were going to obey him matthew has to show you that he has a right

00:10:23.460 to that throne so he gives you jesus genealogy i think through his his adopted father joseph

00:10:28.660 the royal right to the throne lucas marries uh clearly and so he has a physical right to that

00:10:33.220 throne and he has the royal right via adoption through joseph's lineage that's just a excursion

00:10:38.740 but sure when you read um matthew chapter 3 you see john the baptist the first thing that he's

00:10:42.820 preaching when he comes in he's saying repent for the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of god the

00:10:46.340 rule of god in the world is at hand now it's important because that's what the jews were

00:10:50.740 expecting they were expecting a kingdom that would bring justice and righteousness and salvation

00:10:56.180 to all the nations every tribe tongue people and nations so it's good news to them when john the

00:11:01.300 baptist says the kingdom of heaven is at hand they were anticipating this ruler uh this messiah to

00:11:07.140 come and bring salvation and justice righteousness and the law of god to the nations so it's good

00:11:14.980 news to them so when jesus goes into the wilderness defeat satan the temptation the first thing that

00:11:19.940 he's preaching when he comes out of that temptation is repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and

00:11:24.660 And it says that he's going about preaching the, here it is, gospel of the kingdom.

00:11:29.480 So evangelicals today have squished down the gospel to this one concept of justification,

00:11:33.380 and they've missed the good news of the kingdom.

00:11:36.480 So when someone says, well, I'm against the whole idea of like Christ ruling and reigning

00:11:40.300 over every single nation, I would say, well, you don't understand why the rule of Christ

00:11:43.700 is good news then.

00:11:44.460 So in other words, you don't have any good news of his kingdom.

00:11:47.280 You have good news of reconciliation and peace with God through faith, but you don't know

00:11:51.940 what makes the kingdom, the rule of the Messiah, such good news for the world. And it's good news

00:11:58.020 for the world because, and this is a problem, you know, we talked today about so many evangelical

00:12:03.860 pastors that will make claims or at least teach theologically in line with something like what

00:12:10.040 Andy Stanley teaches, where you sort of have to unhitch the Old Testament from the New Testament.

00:12:14.940 You know, the Old Testament, that's just that law stuff. That's that mean old God from the Old

00:12:18.600 testament and what we have in jesus is a sweet god who just loves us and just wants to you know

00:12:23.300 personal relationship with jesus and it's that's the focus right and whereas the old testament

00:12:27.020 same god and by the way same gospel being proclaimed and that revelation of god is the

00:12:33.740 same god it's his word that revelation of god told the story of a messiah who would bring the nations

00:12:39.040 to god he would bring salvation and reconciliation and peace with god but he would also rule over

00:12:43.860 the nations and all the nations were going to come to obey him it's one of the things you ask

00:12:47.560 the question about christian nationalism and like christian nations the nations obeying jesus

00:12:54.200 yeah it's in the first book of the bible i mean not only do you have the promises to abraham

00:12:57.880 of him having offspring like the stars and like the sand of the sea that's a very successful

00:13:01.880 kingdom in my book that's a lot of people but you also see that the those movements towards

00:13:07.160 this understanding of the messianic king that actually rules the nations like genesis 49 10.

00:13:12.120 this one who is coming, to him shall be the obedience of the nations. The obedience of the

00:13:17.720 nations sounds like Christian nationalism, right? Yeah. I mean, when we look at that,

00:13:23.100 just that basic term, I think about what you're saying here, Jeff, you have me so many things

00:13:27.100 that are firing off of my brain, but we often think that Christianity is some fairly new

00:13:32.840 religion when reality, we need to think about it as the fulfillment of a very old, and I would say

00:13:36.940 that very first and true religion. Yeah. And so we need to recognize obviously the systematic

00:13:41.460 nature of the old testament the new testament how that the jews were looking forward to a king

00:13:46.020 yet we are not looking to christ as king as as we should and but as savior but a savior only yes

00:13:52.820 savior only yeah so we look at him as savior we don't look at him as king we don't look at his

00:13:56.180 lord oh and i know actually the emphasis in scripture i think his savior is used very few

00:14:00.820 times in comparison to the term lord in in the greek is used many many many times it's actually

00:14:06.260 the primary description of Jesus' character.

00:14:08.820 What He does is Savior, but who He is is Lord.

00:14:11.540 And I think that focus has been obviously missed,

00:14:13.380 but I think about like a backyard.

00:14:14.660 I used to live in Oregon, and we'd have this backyard

00:14:17.300 where it was grass, and then it was the trees,

00:14:20.100 and it was the foothills, and then it was the mountains.

00:14:23.220 And I think a lot of Christians today

00:14:24.900 are focused on the backyard,

00:14:26.740 which is that personal relationship with Jesus,

00:14:28.420 the gospel of Jesus Christ, the thing that I'm saved,

00:14:31.540 justification by faith alone and Christ alone.

00:14:33.540 And we get that, and that's what even a lot

00:14:35.220 the reform camp focuses so heavily on, but we miss the kingdom and all the other elements that come

00:14:41.780 with that gospel. And as soon as we bring those elements up, people are shocked, like, what,

00:14:45.780 is this a different version of Christianity? It's like, no, this is actually the historic

00:14:49.300 version of Christianity. And it's why people were building, you know, spending 300 years building

00:14:54.420 buildings and establishing governments and establishing rule and allowing Christ in every

00:14:59.380 part of their life. And why we are having such a different view where we're building churches

00:15:03.860 inside of strip malls, and we're just, what I'm leading into is this element of eschatology,

00:15:10.180 long-term view, looking at Christ as king, the last things. How should we be looking

00:15:15.960 at this whole discussion of Christian nationalism as it relates to eschatology?

00:15:21.960 And I know that we're both post-millennial. We both have that view. For someone that's coming

00:15:28.000 into this world that's got a pre-millennial view or a dispensational view, they might not even know

00:15:33.060 what the amillennial spot is.

00:15:34.700 I don't want you to spend a lot of time

00:15:35.740 describing all the positions,

00:15:37.100 but explain the post-millennial position

00:15:39.520 and how it contrasts to the pessimistic view

00:15:43.700 that's generally held by most people in the church.

00:15:46.220 Yeah, well, it goes back to the question

00:15:48.700 of the Old Testament.

00:15:50.820 What does it say about this coming Messiah, this King?

00:15:54.700 It's important that we recognize

00:15:56.660 that the New Testament, the New Covenant,

00:15:59.480 New Testament documents are not a novelty.

00:16:01.920 It's not something that dropped into the first century as something that totally surprised them.

00:16:06.600 I mean, Jesus actually chastises people for not believing what the Scriptures had said about him.

00:16:12.120 Like, after he's raised again from the dead, he's on the road to Emmaus.

00:16:14.860 He's got some very confused disciples.

00:16:16.460 They're like, oh, we thought he was the Messiah and everything else.

00:16:18.660 Well, Jesus calls them slow of heart to believe all the prophets had spoken, right?

00:16:22.300 So he challenges them that you were supposed to know this.

00:16:25.380 The prophets foretold this.

00:16:26.860 The message of Jesus is not a novelty.

00:16:29.280 this is really of course old covenant new covenant old testament new testament but it's really one

00:16:34.760 revelation from god of what he's going to do in redemptive history so you you can't divorce one

00:16:40.080 from the other and and it's important you make the comment about you know this personal relationship

00:16:44.140 with jesus the person who sort of takes the gospel and squeezes it down to just a justification a

00:16:50.880 person this personal relationship with jesus we're not saying that it's either or it's the gospel of

00:16:55.820 kingdom or it's what you got we're saying that you um are missing the glory of it because it's

00:17:01.260 not just personal salvation for you it was salvation for the nations yes you're missing

00:17:07.260 that what we're saying is that it wasn't just this you know private relationship with jesus

00:17:11.660 for a few people here or there it was that jesus came to win the world to god the knowledge

00:17:16.220 of god covering the earth like the waters cover the sea is all-encompassing uh you know psalm 22

00:17:22.780 where it gives us that vision of the passion of the messiah down to details like they pierced his

00:17:26.780 hands and his feet well how does that psalm end this is just three this is peppered throughout

00:17:31.100 the entire old testament you've got all these different portraits of the messiah you know

00:17:35.580 this ruling reigning king this one who brings justice to the nations this holy one this righteous

00:17:41.180 one this one who won't grow faint or weary until he's established justice in the earth and the

00:17:45.500 coastlands wait for his law isaiah 42. it says in this passion psalm it says like here's what he's

00:17:51.820 he's going to do clearly he's going to die but then it says as a result as a result of this

00:17:56.360 passion it says all the families of the earth will return to worship Yahweh well that sounds

00:18:01.100 like Christian nationalism to me yes all the families of the earth all the nations coming to

00:18:05.600 worship Yahweh that's the this that's the scope so it's bigger than my private salvation it's the

00:18:10.820 world and so when you look at the old testaments there's no getting around the fact that the

00:18:18.100 kingdom of the messiah is going to be all-encompassing the kingdom of the messiah was

00:18:22.800 going to be here on this earth with real benefits to the to the world and the reason i'm saying that

00:18:28.280 is not to go into all the details of the differences between amel and not spiritualized

00:18:32.220 we it's not this just the spiritualized thing it's not just out there somewhere in this gassy

00:18:37.940 experience or vaporous existence out there we got to get to that spiritual realm out there whereas

00:18:42.920 god's not concerned with the physical you can't get away from the fact the pre-millennialists

00:18:47.400 have it right they're they're right when they say no i'm sorry that this rule of the messiah is going

00:18:54.040 to impact this world it's physically going to impact this actual world they're right about that

00:18:58.360 yes they're wrong in the time timing yeah um but the amillennialists who will essentially

00:19:03.320 spiritualize the whole thing away out there and really just essentially operate on the basis of

00:19:07.720 like god's not really concerned with this physical world and the transformation of institutions in

00:19:11.480 the world the kingdom's gonna come after this world it's it's like out there somewhere well

00:19:15.880 well they're right that it is a spiritual reign that began in the first century postmill and

00:19:20.520 amel all agree on that because that's what jesus and the apostles taught uh very clearly um but

00:19:25.800 they're wrong in terms of they're missing what the old testament and new testament clearly teach

00:19:31.080 about the reign of christ and the impact it actually has in this world so as an example

00:19:36.680 i think it's most important not to say you know jeff can you articulate this and articulate this

00:19:41.480 in a way that that inspires me so i'll follow i don't want that what does the scripture say genesis

00:19:46.520 49 10 one of the first promises where you begin to get a a vision of who this messianic king is

00:19:52.120 it says that uh to him should be the obedience of the nations now i often point this out because i

00:19:57.000 think it is powerful that when the apostle paul uh gives a systematic explanation of the gospel

00:20:03.480 in romans that's where we love to go to explain justification but that's only part of his

00:20:08.200 discussion it's a very important part it's everything we need to die for it but romans

00:20:13.640 one he opens up his letter to the church in rome by saying about christ that the goal is to bring

00:20:19.800 about the obedience of faith among the nations for the sake of his name what's that sound like

00:20:25.800 that sounds like genesis 49 10 all the nations obeying this one and paul opens his explanation

00:20:31.560 of the gospel with those very words all the nations obeying jesus and he ends romans 1 romans 16

00:20:39.480 he ends with that he ends with to bring about the obedience of faith among all the nations

00:20:45.160 for the sake of his name so when someone says you really want all the nations to obey jesus

00:20:52.120 i'm sorry that's christianity why are we disputing this are you surprised this is the goal of every

00:20:57.880 missionary right when you send a missionary into a foreign country your hope and your prayer and

00:21:04.040 your investment of money and all you're giving is hoping that a hundred years from today that that

00:21:09.080 nation is saturated with christians yeah which would make it a christian nation and uh so your

00:21:14.600 sincere desire as a believer should be that your nation becomes a christian nation right and that

00:21:21.000 it would dictate and determine and influence its leaders its government its laws its politics its

00:21:26.200 it's education, it's media, everything.

00:21:29.080 We should not, I think about Doug's tagline,

00:21:32.140 all of Christ for all of life, right?

00:21:34.100 I think that's such an important perspective

00:21:36.220 that we have missing in the church today,

00:21:38.860 where we have compartmentalized Christ

00:21:40.740 to that justification by faith alone,

00:21:42.760 but we're not actually experiencing

00:21:47.200 the further part of the kingdom.

00:21:48.380 Again, that backyard metaphor that I was talking about there.

00:21:51.880 And so, again, when you go back to the Great Commission

00:21:55.360 And Jesus says, all authority has been given to me

00:21:57.500 in heaven and on earth.

00:21:58.640 So we have a ruling and reigning king now.

00:22:00.560 We know the scriptures throughout the New Testament

00:22:01.960 talk about a ruling and reigning Christ now.

00:22:04.820 We have the reality that the commission actually go

00:22:10.200 and to make disciples of the nations.

00:22:12.280 So we have a mission there.

00:22:13.540 We also know that the kingdom of God

00:22:14.740 is like a mustard seed that starts out small,

00:22:16.600 which aligns up with church history, right?

00:22:18.260 We have a small church in 70 AD

00:22:22.140 that's moving on post that time.

00:22:24.720 And then what do we have now?

00:22:25.720 We have a growing church.

00:22:27.840 And so I think about, you know,

00:22:31.080 the kingdom of God is like 11 and 11 and the whole lump.

00:22:33.000 We're seeing this happen.

00:22:34.720 So many people are pessimistic

00:22:36.040 because every opportunity of something bad

00:22:39.280 happening in the world, it reinforces their pessimism.

00:22:43.140 Right.

00:22:43.360 You know, they're like, you know,

00:22:44.480 someone robbed my neighbor's house. 0.99

00:22:46.040 See, the world's coming to crap. 0.97

00:22:47.660 You know, Jesus must be coming back soon. 0.97

00:22:49.080 Everything's bad.

00:22:50.060 Oh, something happened on the news today.

00:22:51.620 Everything's bad.

00:22:52.180 So every possible piece of bad news

00:22:54.180 becomes an affirmation of everything getting worse.

00:22:56.580 But talk to me about how actually systematically

00:22:59.720 over the centuries, we're actually seeing an improvement

00:23:02.960 because we're seeing more people come to Christ,

00:23:05.300 more people indwelt by the Holy Spirit,

00:23:07.260 more people raising their children

00:23:08.660 and multi-generational faithfulness,

00:23:10.400 more churches being established,

00:23:11.900 more Christians are filling the earth.

00:23:14.260 Is that trend gonna stop?

00:23:16.600 No, because, and I'm not saying that just as an optimist,

00:23:21.600 optimist i'm saying that because the certainty we have is is the revelation of god it's what he

00:23:26.080 whatever he has spoken we have certainty about christians can have disputes over things that are

00:23:30.860 not clear in scripture or not even talked about in scripture we can have grace and respect for

00:23:34.860 one another and we can have all these other side areas where we might disagree and say well we're

00:23:38.820 not really certain about that maybe we have some principles here and there in scripture but we can

00:23:41.900 have disputes over those things and that's great we should do that but when it comes to the

00:23:45.760 certainty that we have and say that's that's the truth and it's going to happen it's based upon the

00:23:50.020 revelation of god scripture says psalm 110 1 the very the most quoted verse from the new testament

00:23:57.220 from the old testament in the new testament i always say it's god's favorite bible verse

00:24:01.420 apparently is psalm 110 1 the lord said unto my lord sit at my right hand to make your enemies a

00:24:06.780 footstool for your feet the new testament loves that verse god loves it because it's quoted so

00:24:11.800 much more than anything else in the old testament alluded to quoted from and when paul um quotes

00:24:17.200 that verse in first corinthians 15 explains the gospel and what he says in the first century after

00:24:23.360 the cross after the resurrection after the ascension of jesus he says he must reign jesus

00:24:29.760 so he's reigning now first century paul's context he must reign until all of his enemies are made a

00:24:35.680 footstool for his feet and the last enemy is death so for the apostle paul if you write down his

00:24:40.800 timeline of history just draw it as draw it out on a piece of paper his timeline is he's reigning now

00:24:46.000 and he's going to do so until every enemy is under his feet and then finally death will be defeated

00:24:50.480 after what every enemy is defeated yes the kingdom is established yeah so the progress of the kingdom

00:24:55.120 of god in history is this upwards swing and it is a process it's a process um isaiah 9 6 through 7

00:25:03.440 teaches that it's a process we know the christmas first el gabor mighty god uh the son the child

00:25:09.840 given to us it says of the increase of the increase of his government end of peace there will be no

00:25:15.040 wind there you go see and uh on the on the throne of david to establish with justice and righteousness

00:25:21.920 forevermore the zeal of the lord of hosts will accomplish this in isaiah 42 very clear verse i

00:25:27.440 think it's the the verse that kicked dr white over the edge on post-millennial thinking was

00:25:32.800 he was reading isaiah 42 amongst the massive text but he said to me when he when he was really

00:25:38.800 digging into he said jeff this is a process it's it's a process right like it's not going to drop

00:25:44.320 out of the sky and hit the earth and obliterate it it's a process it says that he will not grow

00:25:49.040 faint or weary isaiah 42 until he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for

00:25:55.280 his torah um and so it's clearly a process mustard seed to large tree 11 and a lump of

00:26:01.360 dough so when someone says to me i'm sorry i'm just no go go run it over here but when someone

00:26:05.840 says to me um and by the way like especially the last 200 years uh christians believe that

00:26:13.120 you know we're the last generation this is the last generation this guy's the antichrist that

00:26:17.040 guy's the antichrist yeah i mean that's just a theme through christian history is like thinking

00:26:20.800 you're in the you're in the very last terminal generation yeah um but so we especially believe

00:26:26.080 that but when someone says to me uh today you really believe that the world is gonna

00:26:32.160 become more christian and transform like look at the world today look at the wars going on

00:26:36.560 look at the evil look at transgenderism look at all of this stuff the the destruction of human

00:26:40.960 marriage look at all that we've lost i i would say no for sure um it's a mustard seed that

00:26:46.960 becomes a tree and there's moments of historic judgment in history where you know god judges

00:26:51.200 nations uh but you know we started with 11 very confused disciples at the ascension of jesus yeah

00:26:57.120 you know they they're just like wait what yeah all authority and go get the nations because he's

00:27:02.320 because he's in charge and someone someone says to me you know it doesn't look like uh

00:27:06.560 the world around us is getting better i'd say more christians more professing christians in

00:27:11.840 the world today than any time in human history in more nations that we've ever been before

00:27:17.920 and i can communicate the gospel now right now i can grab my phone i can open it up and i could

00:27:24.400 preach christ and his crown rights and his glories and his gospel live to people in new zealand

00:27:31.040 australia all of africa all over europe i can talk to people all over the world and spread

00:27:36.080 christ into their nation right now like in an instance the word of god is on billions and

00:27:40.880 billions of phones already you know it's just continuing to be downloaded uh across the world

00:27:46.480 we have so much i mean how many there's 50 000 church buildings in the united states right now

00:27:50.160 right i mean yeah it is absolutely an increase uh and it's so funny why are why why aren't these

00:27:58.720 verses being taught why why is this perspective being overstepped i mean i know historically

00:28:03.520 this wasn't the case. We know that this was the view of the Puritans. We know this is the view of

00:28:08.000 the pilgrims coming over and why America is the way that it is.

00:28:12.340 They're post-mill.

00:28:13.620 They're post-mill. We also know that this was the way of even medieval Europe and

00:28:16.860 those that were saved in that generation as well.

00:28:20.500 Athanasius.

00:28:21.260 Athanasius and the early church. And so, why is this not being taught? And actually,

00:28:26.880 I'm going to say one last thing. Keep that question there. The other thing is that people

00:28:30.560 need to know that we're not saying that we do this. It's that to the spirit of God, if I look

00:28:36.060 at a spear and I think the front of the spear is the gospel. And I go, the spirit of God is right

00:28:41.960 at the front, saving souls, bringing them to life, regenerating, born again, transforming life. But

00:28:48.200 from that point is it's permeating, not just your relationship with the Lord, but also the way that

00:28:54.020 you raise your kids and the way that you educate your family and the way that you do church and

00:28:57.200 the way you do community and the media that you do

00:28:59.300 and the way you spend your money and the economics

00:29:01.480 and the government and the politics

00:29:03.160 and the people you hire at your police station

00:29:04.660 or whatever it is, it just needs to permeate further.

00:29:08.140 It's just not, it's like stabbing the heart

00:29:10.520 and they're like, okay, let's just wait

00:29:12.560 until Christ comes back.

00:29:13.860 Why is this, there's this gap between salvation

00:29:18.860 and actual culture change?

00:29:22.720 So I don't have all the answers,

00:29:25.080 but I would think there are some issues you can look at and say,

00:29:29.900 you can point to and say,

00:29:30.720 okay, that's clearly a cause of the woes that we have today.

00:29:33.780 So I would say, first of all, it's the pulpit,

00:29:36.000 and it's the proclamation of the gospel coming from the pulpit

00:29:39.540 and the proclamation of the gospel not coming into the public square

00:29:43.180 or coming into the public square in a way that's not the gospel the apostles preached.

00:29:47.000 So we preach a gospel today that is very,

00:29:51.920 will you give Jesus a chance?

00:29:53.320 Will you try Jesus?

00:29:54.140 so sort of like even like a play on the myth of neutrality even as i tell someone the gospel maybe

00:29:59.740 i just need to make friends with them for a while and just show them through my good deeds that they

00:30:03.580 should follow jesus too you know sort of a thing uh and that's not to say that we shouldn't be

00:30:07.580 doing good works in the world and we want we don't want people to glorify our father in heaven by

00:30:12.060 seeing those good works of course we do but those good works aren't going to save my neighbor from

00:30:16.860 their sin the proclamation of the gospel that you read in the book of acts was a proclamation of the

00:30:21.260 gospel that that had an emphasis on the lordship of jesus christ and it was a command to repent and

00:30:27.900 to believe they didn't come into the to the public square placating the people they came into the

00:30:32.940 world and it created riots they're being lowered out of windows they're being beaten they're being

00:30:38.300 thrashed by the people around them and what else is happening acts chapter 9 while people are

00:30:43.100 taking oaths to kill paul and they want him dead it says the church is built up they experience

00:30:48.300 peace and they were multiplied why they're a faithful proclamation of the gospel that preaches

00:30:52.860 it with clarity this is who jesus is this is what he did here's what's wrong with you now you need

00:30:57.020 to repent and believe in a hurry and come to christ for forgiveness and salvation it was an

00:31:01.740 understanding that god is holy christ is king you better repent and believe it wasn't a uh will you

00:31:07.180 give jesus a chance try him out it's not just savior or he's not just savior he's lord right

00:31:12.620 and that was the understanding and and the whole concept of repent and believe right like a biblical

00:31:17.660 faith is a repentant faith yep but we teach people today oftentimes you hear kind of it's very

00:31:23.180 popular today that if you just acknowledge and acquiesce to these facts about jesus and just say

00:31:28.380 they're true then your ticket is punched you're going to heaven one day and and sorry the demons

00:31:33.340 do that too they they acquiesce to all the facts of the gospel they would say those are all true

00:31:37.900 facts but they will not turn to them they won't turn to christ and so we have a a proclamation

00:31:42.860 of the gospel that isn't clearly communicated and we also have a proclamation of the gospel that's

00:31:47.820 not coming into the public square christianity is supposed to be the christian church is supposed to

00:31:53.100 be that help meat of jesus that brings about his dominion in the world but it's supposed to go into

00:31:59.020 the world we've treated sunday worship services as the even the the evangelism tent let's invite

00:32:05.740 people to come to this place of worship and maybe we can build our worship service in such a way

00:32:10.460 where it's going to be very appealing and attracting to unbelievers well scripture says

00:32:15.340 that unbelievers hate god they're enemies of god they they don't seek for god they're fallen they're

00:32:19.740 dead in their sins and trespasses what they need is they need the power of god to bring them to

00:32:24.380 salvation which is only the gospel itself and it is an odd thing that we would take unbelievers and

00:32:31.100 say please come to church to get saved the the church the local gathering is supposed to be the

00:32:37.180 place of the saved it's not to say we don't want unbelievers to show up of course we do but i want

00:32:41.980 to say this if if a if a unbeliever who doesn't know christ comes into a solid biblical church

00:32:47.500 not a perfect church but a solid biblical church i think after a couple of weeks apart from

00:32:52.460 regeneration they're not coming back i've got story after story of that happening in our local

00:32:57.100 fellowship where unbelievers come they hang out for two or three weeks i've even had people tell

00:33:01.020 me afterwards about four weeks coming to church don't show up anymore they're clearly unbelievers

00:33:06.140 we've given them the gospel all of that we know they're unbelievers and they've told me

00:33:11.260 yeah you know i it's clear i'm not a christian and i i don't really belong there and not like

00:33:16.780 they're not welcome but they just know through the message being preached from the pulpits

00:33:21.820 that we're encouraging them not to pretend yeah yeah you know what i mean and so but but here's

00:33:26.700 the point the the place that we're supposed to go to bring the gospel which is the power of god for

00:33:32.700 for salvation is the public square yes out acts you see that's the methodology of the leaders of

00:33:38.780 the church the apostles they go to the public square which is interesting because jesus said

00:33:43.580 that he would build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it gates are not an

00:33:48.780 offensive moving force gates are defensive yep so we tend to think of like the gates coming to

00:33:54.300 fall on the church and they're not going to beat us yeah no jesus says he's going to build his

00:33:57.980 church and the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against it meaning the church is supposed to be

00:34:01.740 the offensive force in history that's conquering this this this place of satan and darkness and

00:34:09.340 the gates of hell can't prevail against us we're going to overcome them and so we're supposed to

00:34:13.660 go into the public square so i think that's an answer but there's also the issue and this is

00:34:18.220 clearly a major issue while eschatology and you know we agree fundamentally on mill post mill

00:34:26.460 pre-mill we agree christ is returning he's returning physically there's going to be a

00:34:30.700 resurrection of the just and the unjust there's a final day of judgment all we all agree on that

00:34:35.100 that's the core stuff we all we're brothers on and that's what's important and these these

00:34:40.300 eschatological issues are technically side issues but they are side issues with so much dramatic

00:34:47.500 impact and so when someone says to a congregation or congregations of believers that the world's

00:34:53.740 going to go to hell in a handbasket all your work here is irrelevant this stuff is just a throw away

00:34:58.940 anyways don't bother polishing brass on a sinking ship literally solid believing teachers have said 0.99

00:35:04.780 those sorts of things when you teach christians that they will act and live accordingly they will

00:35:12.220 and so when you tell christians that it's better that the culture goes to hell because it means

00:35:17.260 christ is returning at any moment yeah you're actually excited for it to get worse yeah you

00:35:22.220 literally how many videos will you find on youtube right now if you go to find some uh cultural

00:35:29.180 demise some destruction some evil famine or whatever in the world where you see christians

00:35:33.580 literally uploading videos thrilled guys at any moment we're out of here we're out of here and

00:35:39.260 all they're saying is like to my loved ones if you see this video just know like you know and

00:35:44.140 rather than saying today is the day of salvation you should be going out into the world and preaching

00:35:50.700 that gospel look irrespective of your eschatological beliefs the marching orders are the same for all

00:35:57.260 of us win the nations baptize them teach them to obey jesus but what happens is is that eschatology

00:36:06.140 matters and it has an impact and so if you train christians that all of this is irrelevant to god

00:36:14.300 and the best thing is to get pulled away into the spiritual gassy existence out there somewhere

00:36:19.740 they will live and act accordingly they'll build accordingly i mean i've talked to

00:36:23.420 and this probably happened to you as well how many people have you ever um interacted with christians

00:36:28.860 who have said yeah when i believed that before about like the destruction of the world and it's

00:36:34.300 good for us and the secret rapture all this stuff like my wife and i didn't want to have any kids

00:36:38.780 because we thought what's the point of having children right now if jesus is about to return

00:36:42.700 i don't want them to be living during the tribulation i mean they literally plan their

00:36:46.380 families around it yeah and it goes even further than that it's not just their their family uh

00:36:50.780 planning but it also is their business planning um the christian is is checked out there is no

00:36:56.860 culture war for them long term they're not they're not thinking about multi-generational

00:37:00.940 inheritances for their children they're not uh investing their money why don't we have any good

00:37:05.660 tv for our children in the church because the church is checked out and so we're forced to

00:37:10.300 put our kids in front of terrible media yeah when in reality we could have great content but nobody's

00:37:15.580 thinking that way we used to it used to yeah and it's so frustrating even for young families i know

00:37:20.780 right now man if there was some really great content for kids on television

00:37:25.260 christian families would be eating it up but nobody's building yeah that way because again

00:37:28.780 we think that you know why are you going to paint a house that's burning down what's the point yeah

00:37:32.300 what's the point and so now we've talked about this and i think a lot of people have a bunch

00:37:36.300 of questions about the theological implications of this however let's take it to practicality so

00:37:42.620 so now you've got uh this post-millennial view how is that playing out here at apologia

00:37:50.220 tempe phoenix area for us in sedona cottonwood arizona just north of you guys

00:37:56.540 how is that playing out practically in a way that you're going well i'm not going to check

00:38:01.340 out from the culture i'm actually going to build and i'm going to push and i'm going to leave

00:38:04.860 a multi-generational inheritance and i'm expecting my children to take over and expect them to do the

00:38:09.100 same and we're going to build over and over a colony for christ that lord willing in a hundred

00:38:14.380 years will be much bigger than it is today and a hundred years later it's much bigger than it is

00:38:18.220 that time so what are you doing practically here and then i want to get into a specific issue about

00:38:24.940 your event yeah so um i would say first and foremost it starts with teaching um teaching

00:38:31.420 the church people who are under our care teaching our families these truths from the gospel the

00:38:36.780 the authority of Christ over all things, the hope we have for the future,

00:38:41.140 the understanding that all of life is under Christ,

00:38:45.060 whether it's individual, whether it's the family, whether it's the church,

00:38:48.160 whether it's the state, teaching Christians,

00:38:51.120 even things like your work and your labors are worship, right?

00:38:56.880 Yes.

00:38:57.200 You don't need to be this pastor to get to the elite status of the spiritual.

00:39:01.220 The spiritual stuff is not just taking place in the church.

00:39:04.500 Yes.

00:39:04.540 is taking place everything is under the rule of christ everything matters and is you want to do

00:39:09.660 it for the glory of god and so you know encouraging artists and encouraging people to create media

00:39:15.500 encouraging people to build businesses that are that are that produce good things for the glory

00:39:21.180 of god um and and training people to have a comprehensive christian worldview and one that's

00:39:27.980 also not tinged with gnosticism right you know what i mean like seeing just this this spiritual

00:39:33.580 is what's better and this is all a throwaway and it's tainted with with sin and evil god's not

00:39:37.020 concerned with it that's gnosticism yeah you know what i mean so like really trying to fight against

00:39:41.500 uh gnosticism when the christian the christian church i think about like you know when you think

00:39:45.100 about the amish you think oh they build great things when you think about the the christian

00:39:48.860 church you think oh if it's christian i kind of don't want to watch that movie no i don't ever i

00:39:52.700 i hate christian yeah christian music not really excited you know so we've earned a reputation

00:39:58.060 of terrible creation yeah when we in reality we are the ones that have truth we understand beauty 0.66

00:40:04.060 in a way that no other human being outside of christ can understand yet we are producing the

00:40:09.340 worst stuff yeah and it wasn't it's not our history it's not our history yeah look at the

00:40:14.940 buildings and look at buildings the architecture the art yeah the schools yeah the schools medicine

00:40:20.140 science all of that we did that these ivy league schools you look at harvard and yale and you look

00:40:25.020 at things like even oxford and cambridge those are christian institutions we built that stuff

00:40:30.460 and uh we walked away from it i think because for the reasons i've already stated we we we lose the

00:40:37.100 the vision the view of christ as lord over all things um we again we're tins with gnosticism

00:40:43.100 um in in more ways than we could possibly understand and we think this is all a throwaway

00:40:47.980 so we just we do we literally throw it away it becomes part of the trash heap of history

00:40:51.820 and so so i i think it's important so when i when i think about what we're doing however

00:40:57.340 imperfectly we want to first train and teach a full comprehensive biblical worldview yep to put

00:41:04.060 that deposit into this generation so they could pass it along to the next we have tried to make

00:41:09.820 sure that we model as as leaders at apologia what it should look like to go preach the gospel in the

00:41:15.740 public square we i've always felt uh it's there's so much hypocrisy if a pastor or leader says to

00:41:23.340 the church body you need to be preaching the gospel in in the world around you reach people

00:41:28.620 around you and they never see their pastor or their leaders doing it and so we've always had

00:41:33.580 the mindset no we're supposed to lead from the front that's what the apostles did they were the

00:41:38.380 ones going into the public square they were bringing people with them the world's the the

00:41:42.060 christian churches saw them and said they're our example and that's the kind of trouble they would

00:41:46.700 cause godly righteous controversy and uh and so we have always believed that we need to be bringing

00:41:52.300 our church into the public square and i gotta tell you one of the greatest blessings and humbling

00:41:57.580 honors for me today and it's funny i've seen some people complain um we put a lot of videos on an

00:42:04.540 apology of studios now sometimes a lot of times they're not of me now early on most of the videos

00:42:10.220 were all of me because you know we're just building a church and growing and raising people

00:42:13.660 up and those sorts of things so if it's going out and we're preaching the gospel or getting in some

00:42:18.060 conflict the cameras are there it's kind of me leading this and now people are saying well where's

00:42:23.500 jeff like you got all these videos now of of these other guys they have no idea who they are out

00:42:27.980 preaching the gospel and in conflict with others and teaching this or teaching that and those i

00:42:32.060 want to see jeff and they're like no this is the mission is to get more people not just jeff right

00:42:37.180 i mean i i'm an absolute failure as a pastor if i don't make myself obsolete like that that's the

00:42:45.100 goal of a pastor you know like it or not that's the goal of pastor you are to teach in such a way

00:42:50.140 preach in such a way live in such a way serve in such a way that you make yourself obsolete

00:42:55.660 that sounds like a strange thing to do for a career but this isn't a career yeah it's a calling

00:43:00.940 and so we're raising people up and we are we have our church is out at the abortion mill all week

00:43:06.620 long they're at strip clubs preaching the gospel they're at downtown phoenix where there's 20 000

00:43:11.740 people that show up uh they're at asu they're on mill avenue and it's not me it's our church body

00:43:18.220 it's men and women who are out there preaching the gospel they're doing that and they're going

00:43:22.620 they have an understanding the the mission is to go to the world and bring it to the public square

00:43:27.260 so we're trying to raise the people that will see the mission in that way they will bring the

00:43:30.860 gospel to the world we bring the authority of christ the claims of christ the call to repentance

00:43:36.140 to legislators and and we do it in a number of areas but one particular area people are well

00:43:41.420 aware of with apologia is is the area of end abortion now yep so you'll see videos of us in

00:43:47.980 louisiana you'll see videos of us in colorado you'll see before legislatures we've gotten bills

00:43:54.460 of abolition and equal protection into multiple states across the union we have more coming over

00:43:59.260 the next six months um and uh we we we were a part of the bill um that was the historic bill

00:44:06.300 in 50 years of roe versus wade never a bill of abolition that made it to hearing then past

00:44:11.740 hearing onto the floor ours was that bill created no small controversy it was rachel maddow talked

00:44:17.580 about it as new york times i mean i think today i saw it on cnn i mean it's months old but they're

00:44:22.620 still talking about it and uh so we're part of the movement of churches and raising up churches that

00:44:27.980 are trying to abolish abortion in the name of christ yes and we're almost there and so um praise

00:44:34.220 the lord for that and uh so there's there's that aspect yeah i think that you know a lot

00:44:39.180 of people don't realize that these moral issues are moral issues because they're against the moral

00:44:43.500 law of god when you think about transgenderism when you think about homosexuality when you think

00:44:46.940 about abortion pornography divorce this shouldn't be the secular world talking about these things

00:44:53.260 that these are christian issues because they're god's issues because they're ten commandment

00:44:56.860 issues right and and so um we need to be out again bringing the kingdom beyond the backyard

00:45:02.380 of justification by faith alone,

00:45:04.460 but in to those layers that go deeper and further out.

00:45:08.780 There's something important here.

00:45:10.040 This is probably a key issue.

00:45:11.760 People will say today,

00:45:12.680 because they've been trained to say it by pastors.

00:45:15.360 Let's be honest.

00:45:16.020 It came from the pulpit first.

00:45:18.380 You know, Christians shouldn't get involved in politics.

00:45:20.340 Let's be honest.

00:45:21.240 It's pastors who taught them that.

00:45:22.920 They're reciting what their leaders have taught them.

00:45:25.060 So when someone says to me, you know,

00:45:27.280 Christians shouldn't have anything to do with politics.

00:45:29.800 What the implicit argument there

00:45:31.900 is that jesus isn't lord over that yes and that's what that's what they're saying exactly i'm sorry

00:45:36.700 i don't buy that yeah uh all authority in heaven and on earth means on earth too yes now that means

00:45:42.380 also over legislators and and i will say king of kings and lord of lords should refute that

00:45:46.860 immediately because he has the authority to tell the kings of the earth what to do but you also

00:45:51.420 have passages in scripture that are explicit psalm chapter 2 the father says to the son ask of me i'll

00:45:56.700 give you the nations for your inheritance the very ends of the earth for your possession sounds like

00:46:00.220 christian nationalism and then he says to the kings of the earth be wise um to obey the son

00:46:05.660 or you'll perish that's from god to the rulers of the world you obey my son or you'll perish

00:46:11.340 so when someone says christians shouldn't be involved in politics i would say you need to

00:46:14.220 read your bible um because that's just not the message of the bible um he has all authority

00:46:20.300 there too but but the key issue here is this is that when someone says christians shouldn't be

00:46:24.620 involved in those areas i want to say respectfully wait a minute in the legislature they are dealing

00:46:32.300 with moral issues of the ten commandments yeah yeah directly of those issues yeah they're they're

00:46:37.900 think about every every single law that's put into place in a legislature what are they what are they

00:46:43.340 doing what are they saying with these laws they're saying that we have a moral responsibility we have

00:46:49.420 an ought to do a b or c so what they do is they legislate based upon their responsibility

00:46:56.460 morally to do this or that so the legislature deals with moral issues oughts we ought to do

00:47:04.540 this we ought not do that now all i say in this regard is to christians when you say christians

00:47:11.420 shouldn't be involved in that area are you saying that jesus has nothing to say about morality and

00:47:17.580 And if you say, oh, Jesus has something to say

00:47:19.940 about morality, I would say, fantastic.

00:47:22.300 So then you have to bring the message of Jesus

00:47:24.180 into the legislature.

00:47:25.640 Because if it's moral issues,

00:47:27.280 it's something that Jesus governs.

00:47:29.280 And Jesus says, you're to teach the nations to obey him.

00:47:33.340 And that includes legislature.

00:47:35.500 Legislation, yeah, yeah.

00:47:36.540 Go therefore and make disciples of the nation,

00:47:38.040 teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.

00:47:40.080 And this is, again, it shouldn't shock anybody.

00:47:42.280 But what I think that this conversation,

00:47:44.800 and I still wanna talk to you more about

00:47:47.600 how this is permeating here locally,

00:47:49.320 but this conversation is just taking the gospel

00:47:53.160 beyond salvation, grace through faith in Christ alone.

00:47:59.820 Just the basics of, again, even in the Reformed camp,

00:48:03.560 it's going beyond that spot,

00:48:05.420 but we need to figure out how are we going to,

00:48:09.180 how are we gonna bridge that gap?

00:48:10.440 How are we getting individuals, what's that first step?

00:48:13.240 And I like what you're doing here locally,

00:48:14.380 getting the gospel out?

00:48:15.800 Should we be thinking about the gospel

00:48:18.320 and all of Christ and all of life?

00:48:20.380 What is an easy first step

00:48:22.420 to kind of take that gospel further in your own life?

00:48:25.520 I think about kids, I think about your education

00:48:27.220 and how you're training your kids,

00:48:28.240 or I think about the media that you're consuming,

00:48:30.260 or what were those first elements that you're like,

00:48:33.000 Christianity is not gonna just stay here

00:48:34.800 in a spiritual realm.

00:48:35.640 It's gonna actually go here next and here next.

00:48:39.640 I mean, obviously you're talking about politics.

00:48:41.420 That seems a little bit like, where do I even begin?

00:48:44.200 a big jump it's a jump yeah so in terms of the basic level stuff um it starts with the family

00:48:50.680 that's the key issue it starts with the family and however imperfectly we all do it it we need

00:48:55.720 to be clear and communicating the good news of of the kingdom and christ's authority to our family

00:49:01.800 christ isn't just lord over our family he's lord over all the earth he's he's savior and king and

00:49:08.440 within our churches the message that he is savior and king he has authority over all things

00:49:14.360 communicating a a complete comprehensive christian worldview to our kids and this

00:49:19.880 this is a key issue um years ago i was a little a little gentler at saying it um but i'm not as

00:49:27.080 gentle today i'm not mean-spirited about it but not as gentle and more forceful christians have

00:49:31.560 got to get their kids out of the public school government education system because those are

00:49:36.760 places where they have a worldview they are instructing and discipling your children they

00:49:42.360 are teaching them about ethics they are teaching them metaphysics and ontology they are teaching

00:49:47.400 them epistemology how they can know what they know they're teaching a view of origins and all those

00:49:52.280 things are in conflict with the christian worldview they are spending more time discipling your

00:49:56.760 children than you are admit it yep and that's a key thing we have to just finally come to terms

00:50:01.160 with admit the fact that they are spending more time discipling and educating your children than

00:50:06.680 than you are. And they're doing it in a foreign worldview. So many Christians wonder, how are my

00:50:11.400 kids going just so far astray and all these different things and adopting these crazy things?

00:50:16.040 We did everything right. You sent them. You sent them to be trained. And so get your kids out. We

00:50:22.000 have to raise up our children in a comprehensive Christian worldview and have them prepared to be

00:50:28.120 able to deal with the world, to argue with the world, to contend for Christ, all of that. And

00:50:32.900 And so I think it starts premierly in the family.

00:50:37.100 And I think it's important for us to raise our kids and to talk about in our churches

00:50:41.800 to see the whole world again as under Christ's rule and authority, and to do what you do

00:50:46.560 to the glory of God.

00:50:47.980 And we have to influence the world with the light of Christ and the gospel itself in every

00:50:52.560 area of life.

00:50:53.920 We need to make sure that we're not training our children and our churches to view life,

00:51:00.040 world in a compartmentalized way the spiritual over there and this is just the mundane sort of

00:51:05.240 earthly physical stuff doesn't really matter no christians should be doing what we've done in

00:51:10.040 history and that's doing we do to the glory of god making beautiful things for god uh being

00:51:15.800 innovative for god because you think about you know it's something that uh david and i david

00:51:20.920 bonds and i were talking about recently just the creation account alone you can see there that god

00:51:26.840 is creator what does he do he makes beautiful things he makes good things and he's innovative

00:51:33.160 he makes it out of nothing and you know and he's god we're the creatures we're supposed to take

00:51:38.440 dominion over the earth that's that is really our calling and vocation is to be the image of god

00:51:43.080 and light of god in the world so christians should be making good things they should be innovative

00:51:47.720 you know they should be responsible beautiful exactly and so we we had that view in history

00:51:52.760 it's all over it's not new this isn't a novelty but we have to recover that and recovering that

00:51:57.960 i think is going to come down to essentially do we believe that christ is lord like that's the

00:52:04.440 key issue that he's actually in authority over all these things today so we need to be basically

00:52:09.560 raising people up to to know these things to believe these things to hold these things

00:52:13.880 and send them off into the world uh to be people who bring light and salt to the world

00:52:18.280 And this is obviously an organic, over time, you know, in many years, it takes even,

00:52:24.360 as I've shifted into this theological position, it's taken me a lot of unlearning and relearning,

00:52:30.120 a lot of breaking of old habits, a lot of trying to communicate and persuade this conversation

00:52:35.960 with other people, verbal processing, theological stuff. I mean, it's just a lot because you've been

00:52:42.520 living in it as a culture in the church here in America for so long that you don't realize

00:52:47.640 how much of it's on you yeah and so just i i'm just encouraging by this listening and watching

00:52:53.000 is to take the time and be okay with the journey i mean it took me how many years did it take you

00:52:58.280 to go from you know an arminian view to a reform view to a post-millennial view to a theonomic view

00:53:03.320 i mean it's just usually takes people a lot of time years yeah and be patient on that journey

00:53:07.480 you don't need to make these big transitions but the thing i think a lot of people appreciate is

00:53:11.160 that they know that there's alternative views because no one ever even heard about post-millennialism

00:53:15.960 in the modern, in the last 50 years. People were like, what? When you think about David Chilton,

00:53:21.080 back when he was writing these books, he had to be a nutcase to that community, right?

00:53:24.600 Yeah, for them. All those guys that were like the sort of more historic view,

00:53:29.640 look like crazy in that time period. Yeah. It's like homeschoolers in the 80s.

00:53:35.720 You're doing an event here, and I want to talk about that because this is another

00:53:38.600 outflow of this perspective. It's going out further. It's training up men. It's training

00:53:46.120 up families. It's giving them vision, theological vision, understanding of encouraging them to

00:53:53.520 take the glory of God beyond salvation. And you're having an event. Tell us about this event. Don't

00:53:59.400 just tell us about this event, but tell us the long-term plan that's happening every year.

00:54:03.700 Yeah, absolutely. So I just ought to say one word to the last thing you said about the time

00:54:08.580 and the patience and how you sort of like you start rethinking things one of the things that

00:54:12.680 will happen regularly when i'm traveling the country and i meet people who have been blessed

00:54:17.120 and impacted by our ministry our teaching ministry is i'll have people often come up to me and say

00:54:21.380 hey i'm post mill now and um i've always been very clear i'm not trying to get people on my team

00:54:26.700 yeah right i'm not trying to have people just join this club isn't this the cool that post mill club

00:54:31.220 yeah i want these truths to be in people so that they live accordingly so what i always say is the

00:54:36.440 same thing when guys will come to me or girls will come to me and say hey i'm post mill now

00:54:39.540 i'll say praise god let's get to work and then because that's the that's the main issue that i

00:54:45.920 want to make sure i press is that these things these concepts these truths have implications for

00:54:52.140 for your life and the world so let's get to work that's that's what i'm trying to communicate not

00:54:57.440 let's let's get on my team but let's get to work and and it will shape you and make you rethink a

00:55:03.480 of stuff so when it comes to um and you know if you think about things in a different way if you

00:55:10.120 go from thinking this is the terminal generation we're at the very end to thinking perhaps we're

00:55:16.040 in the infancy of the church yeah that'll change right because then you go oh i gotta start thinking

00:55:22.120 about my grandkids i'm gonna have descendants a thousand years from today right yeah like what

00:55:26.520 if there's like another 25 000 years of church history yeah like that that that can do two things

00:55:32.200 it can shock people and it can anger people yeah because they do like i don't want that like i'm

00:55:35.960 going to get out of here tonight yeah and and and just to challenge people with that thought alone

00:55:41.080 what if we're actually when people 25 000 years from now are looking back they'll be looking at

00:55:46.440 us as the as part of that infancy of the church it was just it was just 2 000 years in you know

00:55:51.640 what i mean like we are so far along now what if we are the infancy of the church there's a lot to

00:55:56.360 do it'll make you rethink so much about your kids your grandkids the stuff that you're doing the

00:56:01.240 businesses that you're building yeah you know i mean it just changes a lot so with that in mind

00:56:06.360 reform con is not it's our conference it's not just something to do uh it's actually super expensive

00:56:13.720 and uh we're probably going to lose our butts on it but um but it's worth it for us as an investment

00:56:18.920 because what we hope to do here is to to give a christian conference experience that is good

00:56:27.640 that blesses people that's fun you know you're going to learn a lot you're going to have

00:56:32.200 fellowship we're hoping to because you know typically christian conferences can be amazing

00:56:36.040 you can learn so much but like you know it's like two or three days of a theological beat down yeah

00:56:40.280 you know what i mean like you're there like eight in the morning and you just get talked to every

00:56:43.640 hour for like you know till nine at night the next day it's all over again by the middle of the

00:56:48.360 second day you've forgotten everything you've learned because you just can't contain it all

00:56:52.280 and it's great but it's also kind of a beat down um we want to have a christian conference where

00:56:56.920 you are equipped you are taught you learn you learn a lot but you get to fellowship you get

00:57:02.040 to enjoy yourself we have an after party we have performances so we have leaders in different areas

00:57:08.040 who are believers and lead like believers in those areas and just do it well like we've got a a sports

00:57:14.280 star um uh baseball professional baseball teams across the country um he's incredible uh and we

00:57:22.440 have you know david bonson is all over the news fox business fox news all over the news as a

00:57:29.000 leader not because they're like let's get the christian guy on talk about economics because

00:57:32.520 he's good at what he does and guess what he is the son of greg bonson yeah and he's operating

00:57:39.400 off a christian worldview he's appealing to scripture and his thinking and all the rest

00:57:43.240 but the world goes to him because he's just good at what he does better than most people and so

00:57:47.400 they're appealing to him so we have david bonson to talk about economics we have education uh i'm

00:57:52.920 doing something actually in terms of arts and performance um and so there'll be performances

00:57:58.520 scattered throughout all these different talks your brain a break yeah and you're going to enjoy

00:58:02.360 yourself you know you're going to have a good time and and the the issue though is is with the

00:58:07.160 conference we want to do our very best to continue to teach and encourage believers to see that the

00:58:15.480 word of god the revelation of god is the standard for everything now that's it shouldn't it shouldn't

00:58:22.760 seem controversial or be controversial to say that but when you say by this standard this is

00:58:28.760 the standard for everything yeah and you say that applies to education guess what that does that

00:58:33.560 comes right into the face of public education you can't you can't say by this standard for knowledge

00:58:40.840 and then go there so how do christians take back over education like we once owned it by this

00:58:46.520 standard how does that look so we have you know leaders in that area to do exactly that thing

00:58:50.360 teach you how to do it in the area of economics in the area of politics and government how do we

00:58:55.240 bring this standard by this standard to our government officials we have people who are

00:58:59.320 doing that we're doing that and others are doing that we have the area of the arts and performance

00:59:04.440 and all of that. So, the whole theme of the conference is by this standard, and that really

00:59:10.860 is, yeah, it's an outworking of the theological position of our church and others that say that

00:59:17.840 Christ has all authority and His law is the standard, and it matters everywhere. So, Reform

00:59:22.820 Con by this standard is all of life under the authority of Christ and standing on the Word of

00:59:29.460 God as the standard. And this is October for this year, 2022. Reformation Day weekend. Okay.

00:59:36.980 Amen. And this is something that, again, if you can't make it this year, you can come next year.

00:59:41.340 Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you're doing this because it's, yeah, it's not a business. We're

00:59:46.440 not trying here to make money. Right. Not that it's a bad thing to make money, but the reality

00:59:51.240 is that we need more churches, more ministries, more businessmen to put on resources to educate

00:59:59.680 men and women and families on what it really means to live a whole Christian life with a

01:00:06.240 complete biblical worldview. And so, I appreciate that you're doing that.

01:00:10.600 They can get tickets at reformcon.org.

01:00:13.200 I was just going to say that. And anything else that you want to share,

01:00:18.420 where should people be following your journey i know end abortion now has been kind of like a

01:00:21.540 highlight thing for you right now um what what are a couple links things that you want to just kind

01:00:26.740 of let people know about yeah so apologyastudios.com is where people can go to get all the shows we do

01:00:33.780 different platforms uh they can do all access and they can get access to all this additional

01:00:38.420 content and support our ministry they can also get bonson you which is completely for free awesome

01:00:44.180 and uh the bonson family entrusted us with uh greg bonson's life work and so seminary lectures

01:00:52.340 church everything from philosophy to apologetics to history to exegesis i mean you name it it's

01:00:59.140 a seminary course for free uh from one of the greats in church history it's all at apology

01:01:04.180 studios.com you can go to apology studios on youtube and look at over 2 000 videos of us

01:01:09.140 on the streets doing public debate moderated public debate just tons of teaching um endabortionnow.com

01:01:15.540 is where people can go to get free training and free resources to go save lives at the abortion

01:01:19.540 mill and be a part of this journey with us as a church where we abolish abortion and criminalize

01:01:24.660 it for the glory of god tens of thousands of babies have been saved uh through the churches

01:01:29.140 that we've partnered with and we've raised up to do this work uh that's a life well lived as far

01:01:34.820 as i'm concerned um and so that's what's going on there and abortion now.com so yeah people can go

01:01:40.260 to any of those places and tons of sermons from you and dr white yep and uh they've been a great

01:01:46.260 resource to me over the years and so uh so yeah thanks everybody if you're watching this is a video

01:01:52.660 for joining and listening to jeff durbin and myself talk about a biblical worldview of christian

01:01:57.940 nationalism what does that really look like uh if you are a regular listener to this podcast thank

01:02:02.740 you guys so much your listenership and your faithfulness it means a lot to our ministry

01:02:07.460 if you leave a review you don't even need to write something just go in there let us know how things

01:02:11.620 are going we'd love to have you continue to be a part of our show um and this episode is real

01:02:16.420 christianity my name is dale partridge jeff durbin thanks for having me brother we'll see you guys

01:02:20.020 See you guys next time.

Dale Partridge - September 25, 2022

Is Christian Nationalism Biblical？ with Jeff Durbin and Dale Partridge

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