00:02:13.660Number one, I'm planning to take a semi-sabbatical for the next three months starting in March.
00:02:21.120So our team has made special arrangements for the podcast.
00:02:25.540So for the first five Wednesdays of March 2021, we will be airing five interviews that I recorded with five incredible theologians.
00:02:36.380We have Dr. Steve Lawson talking about expository preaching, Dr. James White I spoke with about
00:02:43.660apologetics, Doug Wilson, we talked about the biblical family, Dr. Tom Askell from Founders
00:02:51.260Ministry, we talked about boldness in ministry, and Dr. Dustin Benj, we are talking about church
00:02:57.980history. And so it's going to be an incredible series. It's called the Theologian Series,
00:03:02.820And we have several more interviews coming out later in the year.
00:03:07.860For the month of April and part of May, we're going to be re-airing our top seven most popular episodes out of the, I don't know, by that time, maybe 140 total episodes.
00:03:20.380And then I'm going to return with a new season of Real Christianity with a focus on some more verse-by-verse exposition of really popular biblical passages.
00:03:32.820And it doesn't mean that I'll stop the topical issues, but I'm going to spend a little bit more time tackling some important passages of Scripture and breaking them down expositionally for you.
00:05:30.080And you have all of these people that are across this spectrum. In the seminary world,
00:05:37.800You basically have EMTs, which is like the mature Christian at the church who's a lay person and has read the entire Bible and maybe led some Bible studies.
00:05:49.480And then the very next step on the continuum or on the spectrum is, you know, someone that's got, you know, four or five years of seminary, you know, 10,000 hours and $80,000 to go through it.
00:10:43.200These are people who, Christians, who believe that the possessive miraculous gifts of the New Testament are continuing on today.
00:10:55.620That these miraculous gifts can be possessed by individuals and they're still happening now.
00:11:00.660And this group has a wide range of people in it from radical Pentecostal movements and churches maybe like Bethel and Prosperity Gospel, you know, folks on that side, all the way to a more conservative continuationism held by people like maybe John Piper, Wayne Grudem, and Sam Storms.
00:11:23.120The second is called the cessationist, right?
00:13:28.940There are arguably seven spiritual gift lists in the New Testament, and these lists make up
00:13:36.780approximately 20 spiritual gifts or gifted offices like apostles, pastors, teachers, etc.
00:13:43.100Now, theologically speaking, these 20 gifts are broken down into two classifications of spiritual
00:13:52.100gifts. And the first is the temporary miraculous gifts, and the second one is the permanent
00:14:00.240ministering gifts. So those are the two camps that a cessationist would put these 20 gifts,
00:14:06.560those two classifications. So we'll talk about this. Basically, 11 permanent ministering gifts,
00:14:14.200and there's nine temporary miraculous gifts. And so let's start with the temporary miraculous
00:14:20.800gifts. So I believe the possession of the revelatory and miraculous gifts of the Spirit
00:14:29.380seized at the death of the apostles and the completion of the scriptures. Now, when I say
00:14:34.280revelatory, I mean people who possess the spiritual gift to speak divine revelation
00:14:40.600on behalf of God, basically apostolic authority writing God's words down.
00:14:47.340Now, when I say, yeah, I should actually say, you know, I believe these revelatory and miraculous gifts associated with the apostles and prophets were given specifically for three reasons.
00:15:02.020Number one was the production of the canon of Scripture, the completed Bible.
00:15:07.540Number two was the establishing of the church or the authority of the church.
00:15:13.320And number three is the authentication of their message to a fallen world.
00:15:20.480In fact, some theologians have actually called these temporary gifts confirmatory gifts,
00:15:27.500as basically their central purpose in the scripture was to confirm,
00:15:32.820to validate God's messengers who were called to establish the new covenant era.
00:15:38.620They didn't have the scriptures at this point,
00:15:40.200So they had signs and wonders coming to confirm the message that they did carry by verbal action.
00:15:50.380So we actually see this testified in the scriptures, Acts 22, Peter says, when he's preaching at Pentecost, he says,
00:15:59.000men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with
00:16:05.160mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst. So God attested
00:16:11.900about Christ through mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him. Hebrews 2,
00:16:21.540three through four says, it was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us,
00:16:27.680the apostles, by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various
00:16:35.160miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. 2 Corinthians 2.12,
00:16:41.960the signs of a true apostle were performed among you with the utmost patience, with signs and
00:16:47.880wonders and mighty works. Acts 19.11, and God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul.
00:16:56.980Now, signs and wonders were not only, you know, the mark of an apostle.
00:17:04.940That wasn't the only mark, I should say.
00:17:07.600Acts 1, 21 through 22 actually presents further qualifications that include, you know, being an eyewitness account to the resurrected Lord.
00:17:18.200These are further qualifications of this gifted office, spiritual office of apostleship.
00:17:26.080And I say this because I don't believe there are or have ever been any God-ordained apostles since the death of the 12 apostles.
00:17:39.620And we'll get back in a second to talking about the validation message that this was a purpose for validating.
00:17:44.860But I just want to talk about, you know, God used these certain individuals, specifically the apostles we're talking about now, who they are.
00:17:52.140There's many people out there in the world that are claiming that they're apostles, and
00:17:55.640I want to kind of refute that for a second.
00:17:58.200So I don't believe that there are any God-ordained apostles.
00:18:02.200And additionally, as a cessationist, I don't believe there are or have ever been any God-ordained
00:18:17.180Ephesians 2.2 says a really important statement.
00:18:20.780It says, So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, verse 20, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.
00:18:38.960Okay, the Bible says that the apostles and the prophets are the foundation of the New Testament church.
00:18:46.540and I don't know how many foundations your house has, but mine has one. We don't lay
00:18:52.920foundations, build upon them, and then lay additional foundations. That's what the Mormon1.00
00:18:58.140church has done and the Jehovah's Witnesses have done. They've laid another foundation on top of
00:19:05.260the already existing foundation, and it's heresy, and it needs to be rejected. So I also want to
00:19:13.420talk about. I don't believe that there are anyone, individuals in the church today who possess
00:19:21.100miraculous gifts for the ministry, including, which we just talked about, the apostleship
00:19:27.840or prophecy, and with a capital P, meaning infallible words from God. Healing, when I say
00:19:35.600healing, I mean, I don't think they possess the gift of immediate healing of, you know, like the
00:19:40.080biblical example, blindness, leprosy, paralysis, right? I don't believe that people possess
00:19:46.020the ability to perform wonders, raising people from the dead, feeding thousands with little,
00:19:50.320changing water into wine. Speaking in phonetic tongues, meaning the possession of an ability to
00:19:56.840basically speak the gospel in real foreign languages to the speaker for the proclamation
00:20:02.480of the gospel or interpreting phonetic tongues, discerning of spirits, right? Identifying and
00:20:10.380casting out certain types of demons. And even I don't believe that people possess the ability to
00:20:16.560have words of supernatural wisdom or knowledge, meaning that they're knowing the thoughts of
00:20:20.940others or of the future. Now, I'm not saying that God can't heal someone through your prayers
00:20:29.460or that God can't give a Christian, by the way of the Holy Spirit,
00:20:32.880a supernatural insight about a particular situation.
00:20:36.020No, what I am saying is that I think these miracles can still happen,
00:20:40.360but I'm convinced that they are not possessed gifts
00:20:44.740as you would see them in the apostolic era in the New Testament.
00:20:49.260And the other thing is they're not normative.
00:21:28.600So another point I want to make in regard to people who, again, claim they possess the gift of, say, healing.
00:21:36.660There's a major difference between the biblical examples of healing.
00:21:40.680And again, this is like the immediate restoration of physically visible issues like lifelong blindness, muteness, deafness, leprosy, withered body parts, paralysis, epilepsy, right?
00:21:51.360And there's a big difference between those biblical examples of immediate, visible healing and these modern, quote, healers who are healing people's lower back pain and, you know, taking their knee pain away and their headaches are gone and they're making a leg a half inch longer.
00:22:16.220I mean, there's a big difference there, okay?
00:22:19.120The first group is an undeniable miracles and was used by Jesus and the apostles, again,
00:22:26.100specifically to validate the gospel message that they were from God, while the second
00:22:32.520group is, you know, inconclusive miracles and almost always used to glorify the person
00:23:38.800So, I talked about before, capital P, prophecy.
00:23:42.400I'm going to talk now about lowercase p, prophecy.
00:23:44.900Now, according to the New Testament, the definition of prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14, 3 states,
00:23:51.580but one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
00:23:58.360That's a very different definition of prophecy than the foretelling of future that's coming from the prophet's mouth that is authoritative and we are called to obey.
00:24:19.480So the lowercase p prophecy, which we have now, is not a foretelling of the future according to God's perfect revelation, but is actually a foretelling of God's truth according to Scripture.
00:24:33.140And so that's, you know, the Old Testament prophets like Jeremiah or Ezekiel or Isaiah, or even maybe say John the Baptist, right, is, you know, the last Old Testament prophet, first New Testament preacher kind of thing.
00:24:50.020John the Baptist, I mean, these are infallible words of what's coming from the Lord.
00:24:55.520That's a very different capital P prophecy than the New Testament prophecy,
00:24:59.300which is, again, more like a forth telling of truth according to God's word,
00:25:05.740which, again, another word for that is just preaching, biblical preaching.
00:26:36.540as each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards
00:26:44.020of the manifold grace of God. So that was where I got that passage or that idea of, you know,
00:26:48.380you have at least one gift. So I believe that these possessive ministering gifts are continuing
00:26:57.500on today and furthering the edification of the body according to the truth of scripture.
00:27:03.800And I believe this because if you travel across the world and you visit, say, 100 churches in 50 different countries, you're going to see an abundance of these ministering gifts.
00:27:14.800But what you won't see is the type of miraculous gifts seen in the scriptures being possessed by individuals.
00:27:21.900You're not going to see New Testament-like possession of gifts where there's just miracles happening all over the place.
00:27:28.440you know, if you did, you would also see the same crowds that are flocking to see these people for
00:27:35.480healing as they did with Jesus. Okay, but you don't see that. That's not true to our Christian
00:27:42.440experience. Furthermore, if you believe that the miraculous gifts are still possessive gifts,0.94
00:27:51.560and you believe, as the scripture says, that God gives these Christian spiritual gifts for the0.76
00:27:57.980edification of the body, then you must admit that God, by this kind of low manifestation of
00:28:05.300miraculous gifts, is, you know, purposefully withholding his blessing and spiritual nourishment
00:28:12.240for his church, which again is obviously a blasphemous notion. And the only sound conclusion
00:28:20.400for the vastly absent nature of these miraculous gifts is that they have seized
00:28:27.720and that any and all miracles since have been produced by God in isolated circumstances according to his will.
00:28:39.280But they're not normative. They're not possessive.
00:28:41.880It was for a time to validate the message before the doctrines of the words of God were inscripturated
00:28:49.160and put in to an authoritative base for the church.
00:28:54.580I mean, that's just what they were there for.
00:28:56.360Now, to be clear, I believe that God still heals people, and I believe that the Lord
00:29:03.760may, in a particular circumstance of evangelism, permit the isolated experience of phonetic
00:29:09.300tongues or even a prophetic word of knowledge in the spiritual conversion of his children.
00:32:16.340it is important to note that they were not just spiritual gifts.
00:32:20.660They were also designated as a sign gift
00:32:24.180and part of a cluster of gifts named by Jesus in Mark 16.
00:32:29.580These sign gifts were given to individuals
00:32:32.500to authenticate the message of the gospel. The early Christians had no New Testament in the
00:32:38.520early years following the ascension of Christ. As the gospel went out to the Jew and Gentile alike,
00:32:45.000it needed the witness of the signs to undergird its authority until the written scriptures
00:32:50.000established that authority base. And again, this is written in the 1500s about this theological
00:32:57.440perspective of the cessation of the miraculous gifts. John MacArthur explains tongues a little
00:33:04.220bit more when he says in one of his books, and I quote, according to 1 Corinthians 14,
00:33:11.2405 through 17, and 27 through 28, the foreign language, that is tongues, requires translation
00:33:18.820so that those in the congregation who did not know the language could be edified. While many
00:33:26.140Charismatics claim to have the gift of tongues, generally an untranslatable, non-phonetic,
00:33:33.120extra-biblical, angelic tongue, it is clear that no one today possesses a definition of tongues
00:33:41.240like those defined in Scripture or demonstrated by the early church in the apostolic era.
00:33:47.020End quote. So, really, you know, to conclude, I believe that modern Charismatics have either
00:33:55.280A, fabricated false giftings and spiritual experiences, or what is probably more likely, B, they've confused, overestimated, or incorrectly designated the ordinary ministerial gifts of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer.
00:34:14.720They've confused them or overestimated or incorrectly designated them with the miraculous and revelatory gifts that have seized.
00:34:22.580And I believe that this kind of spiritual over-credentialization of people in the church calling themselves prophets and apostles and healers has created a great deal of confusion in the church over spiritual giftedness and has actually generated ambiguity on the boundaries of scriptural authority and spiritual authority in the church.
00:34:47.460And by that I mean, I believe that those who are continuationists not only are making a statement on the nature of the charismatic status, but they're also indirectly attacking the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture.
00:35:04.700And that is that the proponents of continuationism, again, mostly I'm speaking to the hyper-charismatic and Pentecostal movements, but by their actions implied directly or indirectly that God's word and the preaching of the gospel are not adequate or sufficient.
00:35:24.060and that the church needs these additional divine, you know, divine information and miraculous signs
00:35:33.000and wonders to further validate God's mission in the world. And I think that's wrong. You know,
00:35:40.040Romans 10, 17 says, so faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. Hebrews
00:35:45.5204, 12 says, for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword,
00:35:50.500piercing to the division of soul and spirit and the joints of marrow,
00:35:53.600and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
00:35:59.200God used signs and wonders to validate his messengers.
00:36:04.540Okay, in the apostolic era, he did the same thing.
00:36:07.940Okay, but after the scriptures were revealed by these God-ordained individuals,
00:36:12.700the Holy Spirit continued his miraculous work on making dead hearts come alive
00:36:19.520And he did that through the Word of God, through the preaching of the Word of God.
00:36:24.800And the miraculous signs to authenticate the gospel message were no longer needed.
00:36:32.500Okay, now as John 3.8 says, the Spirit is here now, and he brings life to whomever he wills.
00:36:41.040And so, yes, believe that God can do miracles and that believe that God can work signs and wonders according to his will.
00:36:52.820But anyone who claims that they are an apostle, they're a prophet or a healer, or anyone who said, hey, I have a word from the Lord for you.
00:37:02.740Be very, very weary of that and sit down with them.
00:37:08.300And in a spirit of gentleness and love and help, sit down with them and show them how their actions stand in opposition to the scriptures.
00:37:21.500And again, make room for miracles in your theology, even as a cessationist.
00:37:32.760But again, this possession, this hyper-spiritual movement that's very congruent with our emotional
00:37:41.000era, we need to be cautious about that, and we need to be careful, and we need to understand
00:37:47.040a biblical theological understanding of spiritual gifts.
00:37:53.020So as always, guys, I'm going to leave you with several resources that'll help further
00:37:58.720this discussion for you because, you know, 20 minute podcast, this one's probably a little bit
00:38:03.340longer, but 20 minute podcasts are never going to offer you the depth you need to fully grasp some
00:38:09.980of the topics that we hit on the show. So you're going to have to, at some point, put on your big
00:38:15.640boy or big girl pants and go get some of these resources and take a deeper dive so that you can
00:38:21.080actually comprehend the depths of these topics and defend them and stand for them and be convicted
00:38:26.980over something in terms of you're not just wishy-washy. You're not in the middle. You're
00:38:30.540not just ignorant. We are in the information age. We are flooded with constant bombarding0.99
00:38:38.540of different perspectives in the church. We need to have our theological status
00:38:44.220concrete, anchored in the Word of God. And so pick up some of these resources. Watch some of
00:38:51.300these things. Take a deeper dive on some of these issues. These are going to be available for you.
00:38:57.880This is episode number 132. You just go to relearn.org, go to podcast, and you can find that
00:39:01.940there. If you even type for spiritual gifts, it'll probably pop this episode up.
00:39:05.560The first resource I'm going to give you is an hour-long sermon by Tom Pennington, who's the
00:39:13.460Dean of Master's Seminary in Dallas, the distance location there. He has a sermon called A Case
00:39:20.640for cessationism. It's really thorough, great piece of information for a one-hour segment.
00:39:30.280There's a video, a short video that I mentioned earlier, Tom Schreiner and the gift of our
00:39:36.620modern-day prophecy. It's just a short interview. John MacArthur did a four-minute video on cessation
00:39:42.800of spiritual gifts. I link that for you as well. I have two books that I think you should check out.
00:39:48.200One is Spiritual Gifts, What They Are and Why They Matter by Tom Schreiner.
00:39:53.120He does a very good job of explaining this and creating a theological defense for cessationism
00:39:59.720while not being rude to a continuationist perspective, especially those that are on the conservative spectrum.
00:40:09.520But he does absolutely defend with an incredible amount of scriptural support his position there.
00:40:17.360Another book that would have a similar endorsement from me is Strange Fire.
00:40:25.300This is by Dr. MacArthur, and the subtitle is The Danger of Offending the Holy Spirit with Counterfeit Worship.
00:40:33.220It's a really important book, I think, to read in this time, in this age,
00:40:36.780And being aware of the vast variety of spiritual interpretations on, or I should say interpretations on spiritual gifts and how we get back to scripture and looking at what the Bible says and what is valid and what is invalid.
00:40:55.840So those are all there available for you, links for you on the website or on the episode post page for the show.
00:41:05.220So last things, guys, if you have not left a review yet, we are so close to passing 6,000