Dale Partridge - Real Christianity #42： The Biblical Role of Women in the Church

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00:00:30.320 Welcome to Real Christianity. Today we are talking about the biblical role of women in the church.

00:00:37.660 So we are going to go there. This has been a highly requested episode and topic on what is the woman's role in church.

00:00:50.560 And so we're going to discuss, should women teach? Should women be pastors?

00:00:56.800 What does that look like in the biblical expression of church according to scripture? 0.98

00:01:01.660 We are going to tackle that in this episode.

00:01:05.320 Before we get started, if you guys haven't already, would you consider leaving a review on iTunes about the podcast?

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00:01:17.520 Again, this episode is available on Spotify, Google Play, YouTube, and iTunes.

00:01:23.140 If you're listening to this, you can watch this as a video on YouTube, which makes it really easy to share with people.

00:01:30.180 To start, I just want to ask you, why do you think this topic, babe, has been so, like so many women ask you about this question?

00:01:40.860 I know I get it all the time, probably weekly.

00:01:45.260 I mean, I'm in the pastoral office, but what do you think is going on?

00:01:50.900 Well, yeah, I get this question a ton, too.

00:01:53.220 And I think that we see so many women who read the word and they see what it has to say.

00:01:58.000 And in their hearts, they truly want to honor the Lord and they want to do what the word says.

00:02:02.300 But then they see something completely different played out in the church today.

00:02:06.220 And oftentimes by women that they admire and that they learn from.

00:02:10.280 And then we also see the opposite concern of women who have this deep, like fiery passion inside of them to teach and they want to exercise that muscle. 0.61

00:02:23.540 They just haven't quite understood the biblical way of expressing that gift. 0.65

00:02:28.280 Yeah, the boundaries of that.

00:02:29.480 And I know you actually have women in your life that you follow online, other teachers, and you go, wow, like how do they have a different perspective on this?

00:02:39.140 Why are they teaching that way or why are they doing those things that seem to be opposite?

00:02:44.440 Yeah. And yeah, they've gone to these incredible seminary schools and I didn't, you know,

00:02:49.200 my seminary school is learning from you and reading the Bible. And so, um, so yeah, sometimes

00:02:55.040 I'll get challenged a lot by why are they walking this way when I believe the Bible says to do this

00:03:01.340 and then I'll usually have that discussion with you, go back to the Bible and then we come back

00:03:04.940 to whatever, you know, we agree upon. Yeah, we have to remember that scripture teaches that

00:03:10.040 God will use the foolish things to confound the wise. He takes the simple people, the weakness

00:03:16.140 of us, and makes us strong. And so topics like these where you go, man, why is everybody else

00:03:24.400 not seeing it this way? Well, I think that's one we need to look at that as in terms of just

00:03:30.260 historical narrative. People always used to see it the way that we're going to preach it.

00:03:34.940 Um, but, uh, in a modern culture, yeah, a lot of people don't see it the way that we're

00:03:40.560 going to share it today.

00:03:42.240 And so, um, just on that point, let's dive right in and we're going to talk about the

00:03:48.240 role of women in the local church.

00:03:51.980 First, um, a local church is not just five Christians in a room with their Bibles.

00:03:58.740 Um, I can hear people say it now, but wait, what about that scripture, that passage that

00:04:04.100 says, where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there amidst them. That passage in Matthew 18

00:04:09.860 is actually referring to church discipline, and it's talking gather two or three together to

00:04:14.860 gather all the facts about this matter. If that was true, that two or three are gathered,

00:04:20.200 and that's when God comes together, then where's God when you're by yourself? And so again,

00:04:25.740 that passage is taken out of context pretty often. So what makes a church? And I'm going to

00:04:32.400 talk about what I think are the seven structures of a biblical church. And again, this is a

00:04:38.340 prerequisite conversation before we get into the topic of the biblical role of women in

00:04:44.120 the church. I'm laying the foundation for you so you can have a better understanding

00:04:49.160 of how we get to the interpretation that we have. So these seven structures, I'll go

00:04:55.000 through them quickly. What makes a church? The first thing is the book of Acts says that

00:04:59.220 Christians met regularly and on the first day of the week. Jesus rose on the first day of the week.

00:05:04.740 The Psalms predicted that he would rise on the first day of the week. That's when Christians 0.96

00:05:08.300 gathered at that point. Hebrews exhorts Christians to not forsake the gathering of yourselves 0.78

00:05:14.020 together as is the manner of some. They gather regularly and they gathered on the first day of

00:05:19.540 the week. That's one of those structural marks that you see in the scripture. And that's why

00:05:23.220 historically the church has gathered regularly and on Sunday. The second structure point is the

00:05:29.980 local church has church governance, and this is found in 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, deacons and elders.

00:05:38.780 So there's church governance in a church. There's local church discipline, and that's in Matthew 18,

00:05:45.120 1 Corinthians 5. That's another part of what makes a body of believers a church. There's communion,

00:05:52.520 And that's 1 Corinthians chapter 11.

00:05:54.840 There's giving, 1 Corinthians chapter 16, among many others, that talks about these are, again, pillars or marks or structure points of what makes a gathering of believers an actual church and not just four or five people who happen to be Christian together.

00:06:08.560 Point number six is there are rules and structures the local church meeting, the actual structure of the meeting has in regards to the schedule, in regards to how gifting, spiritual gifts can be used or not used.

00:06:22.520 And then the point number seven is that there are gender roles and even age roles that you can see for how the church should be played out.

00:06:31.900 The church meeting should be played out. And that's in 1 Corinthians chapter 14, 1 Timothy 2, Titus 2.

00:06:36.780 So these are just important parts to realize, OK, we're talking about what is the role of a woman in the local church?

00:06:44.520 And then now we understand what is a church. It's not just a bunch of people gathering.

00:06:48.380 It's just has to have all these structure points. 0.78

00:06:51.460 Yeah, and that's why a conference on a Thursday morning for work, even with many Christians present, isn't a church meeting. 0.57

00:06:58.780 Or why a Bible study with three ladies around at a coffee table isn't a church meeting.

00:07:03.660 And this is why a seminary class on theology isn't a local church meeting.

00:07:09.420 Imagine being at your friend's house for a worship night and all of a sudden decide that you're going to try and collect some giving or imposing church governance on your friend.

00:07:19.760 yeah that'd be a little awkward. It'd be awkward yeah it'd be super weird. So what we're saying is

00:07:25.340 that not all Christian gatherings are church gatherings. Yeah that's the core point not all

00:07:30.900 Christian gatherings are church gatherings. So now let's go to first Corinthians to see

00:07:35.680 what it has to say about women in the church. Now again I'm going to stall us for a second

00:07:42.060 because we got another prerequisite here. First we need to determine who this letter was written to

00:07:49.080 And why?

00:07:50.380 Well, I've heard several Christians explain away the relevancy and doctrines of the entire book of 1 Corinthians.

00:07:57.480 I've heard it many times.

00:07:58.540 I actually recall a preacher once saying, and I quote,

00:08:01.460 Remember, this letter was written to Christians 2,000 years ago for a culture 2,000 years ago.

00:08:08.100 And ultimately, this does two things that we need to be concerned about when you hear statements like that.

00:08:13.180 First, the disposition further advances the growing idea that when Scripture is tough on our flesh,

00:08:18.940 when we bump into it, it's unpopular or uncomfortable,

00:08:21.960 that we can always find a contextual angle to sidestep the authority of that Scripture.

00:08:27.340 The second thing is this posture implies that the words of that book in 1 Corinthians

00:08:32.720 are not relevant or authoritative to a modern community of believers.

00:08:37.700 They were only authoritative to a historical community of believers.

00:08:43.620 All that is a lie, and we know that because Paul clearly states who he wrote this letter to,

00:08:51.220 and it's not just for a distant Corinthian culture long ago.

00:08:56.660 And in verse 2, we actually see the letter's intended audience,

00:09:00.460 and Veronica's going to go ahead and read that section for us now.

00:09:03.840 Okay, 1 Corinthians 1, verse 2.

00:09:07.700 to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus called to be saints with all who in every place call on

00:09:13.720 the name of Jesus Christ our Lord both theirs and ours so ultimately Paul is addressing four groups

00:09:19.940 of people here the first one is going to be the church of God which is at Corinth is that you

00:09:24.480 no no so the second one is those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus

00:09:30.080 yes that you yeah that's me um number three those who are called to be saints again is that you

00:09:36.760 Yes, I'm called to be a saint.

00:09:38.480 Okay.

00:09:39.120 And then the fourth one is where it says,

00:09:42.160 With all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

00:09:47.280 Is this letter written only to the Corinthians?

00:09:51.160 No.

00:09:51.820 This is written to everybody with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

00:10:00.280 And so it's pretty evident that Paul, if you just want to, you know, he's going,

00:10:04.000 And hey, Corinth, sure, directly, it's to you.

00:10:08.020 And then called to be saints and sanctified in Christ Jesus.

00:10:11.700 And then all who in every place.

00:10:13.100 Man, this is a universal letter.

00:10:15.940 And so this is important to make sure that you guys understand

00:10:18.380 because we're going to talk about the doctrines of 1 Corinthians.

00:10:21.240 And if you don't believe that this letter is written to you.

00:10:25.380 To Christians.

00:10:26.060 To Christians universally, that it's authoritative in your life, 0.98

00:10:29.100 then you're going to just not be able to submit to the doctrines 0.89

00:10:32.960 that are taught within this letter. In seminary, I actually had the privilege to learn some of the

00:10:39.100 historical and cultural context of this letter, and I don't have time to share all that today,

00:10:43.760 but I do want to give you some basic context of the letter of 1 Corinthians because we're going

00:10:49.060 to talk about it here in a bit. So Paul wrote it from Ephesus. He had just got done spending about

00:10:54.640 18 months in Corinth, and he actually established the Corinthian church. He ends up going to Corinth.

00:11:02.060 he meets Priscilla and Aquila there. Priscilla and Aquila actually get kicked out of Rome.

00:11:06.980 They're also Jewish. They're also tent makers. They become friends. Paul's like, man, these Jews 1.00

00:11:11.380 don't want to listen to me because he goes to the synagogues first. He goes, I'm going to leave this 1.00

00:11:15.640 place. But actually the Holy Spirit says, no, no, no, you're going to stay here and establish a

00:11:20.260 church. Paul establishes this church. Then he moves on to Ephesus. He writes this letter back to them.

00:11:26.620 And so that kind of gives you a little bit of history and understanding of Paul cares about these people in a deep way.

00:11:33.880 And he's instructing them as a father, as a shepherd.

00:11:37.720 And now, like this letter and the rest of the New Testament epistles are universal teachings for local application.

00:11:46.180 Meaning that they're for the entire church of God, but they're to be applied in your own life, in your own church, in your own time.

00:11:53.740 And that's how we should be viewing these passages and these doctrines.

00:11:57.640 Now, the contents of this letter specifically in 1 Corinthians,

00:12:01.600 they're corrective and specific issues to the Corinthian church,

00:12:04.000 but the principles are universal.

00:12:06.060 And that's what we need to understand.

00:12:07.320 These principles are universal.

00:12:08.640 Sure, there are some direct things just to Corinth,

00:12:11.200 but generally the principles are universal.

00:12:14.020 And to give you some more foundation to stand on,

00:12:15.880 the church throughout history, if you look at this,

00:12:19.020 has believed that this letter is universal.

00:12:21.260 There's no way that this letter would have made it into the canon of Scripture, the New Testament canon, if the entire church in the establishing church, the early church, didn't view this letter as authoritative doctrine for the church of God.

00:12:36.820 And if we didn't have this letter or we didn't adopt or view 1 Corinthians as an authoritative letter, man, we wouldn't have so many of the doctrines on sexuality, on marriage, on church discipline, on church structure, unity, spiritual gifts.

00:12:51.260 love and the resurrection the first corinthians 13 chapter is the biblical definition of love

00:12:56.920 if we just kind of threw out first corinthians the doctrine and its authority we wouldn't have

00:13:02.460 first corinthians 13 which is so core to the christian faith or the resurrection in first

00:13:07.580 corinthians 15 it's one of the most important doctrines and passages on the resurrection so

00:13:12.780 what i'm saying is that we can't pick and choose or do the cherry picking of the scriptures that

00:13:17.540 we like from 1 Corinthians and the scriptures that we don't like. We need to really yield

00:13:21.680 to it as an authoritative letter in its entirety. Now again, we're getting there. We're getting

00:13:29.460 close to talking about these doctrines for biblical women. But quickly, I want to give

00:13:34.520 you just another point on hermeneutics. And the reason I'm telling you all this stuff

00:13:39.840 is because I want you guys to understand that I've studied this extensively. I'm not going

00:13:44.680 to say that I'm scholarly, but I will say that I've studied this passage extensively, and I am

00:13:50.500 looking at it through the lens of accurate interpretation tactics. I'm looking at the

00:13:56.660 grander theology, and just wanted to walk you through one last thing before we get into this

00:14:02.180 conversation. A quick hermeneutics lesson. So hermeneutics is the science and interpretation

00:14:08.440 of scripture or the art and science of interpreting scripture. And the mature and the wise

00:14:17.200 Bible reader gets to discern what type of texts are prescriptive and what types of texts are

00:14:24.860 descriptive. And I'm going to give you an example. The book of Acts in Acts chapter 2, which Acts in

00:14:31.280 general is a descriptive book. It's a historical narrative. Acts chapter 2 says this passage

00:14:37.420 about, man, the church came together and they gathered all things together and they shared

00:14:43.260 amongst themselves. This is what that church did. It's not necessarily what scripture is prescribing

00:14:49.180 us all to do universally. And so you have to recognize that, wow, that isn't prescriptive

00:14:55.760 doctrine. That is descriptive history. And you get to do that all throughout scripture.

00:15:01.020 And to go even a little bit deeper, if the text is maybe appealing to local customs versus universal principles.

00:15:09.540 These are things that I'm doing in the midst of putting together my theological argument or understanding.

00:15:15.300 And I'm going to give you an example of that, of customs and principles.

00:15:18.580 In the Gospels, Jesus sends out the 70.

00:15:21.620 You might remember that story. 0.52

00:15:23.260 And he tells them to not bring shoes.

00:15:27.440 It's one of the instructions.

00:15:28.980 Don't wear shoes.

00:15:30.480 Now, this is clearly, as you study this passage, accustomed to the time and accustomed to the era or the geographical era area that they were living in.

00:15:39.840 It's not a universal mandate for shoeless evangelism.

00:15:44.180 And so these are the kind of things we get to look at as we study this passage of Scripture.

00:15:51.500 Thanks.

00:15:52.020 So now that we know what a church is and we know who this letter is written to and we know how to discern different types of commands in Scripture, let's now go to 1 Corinthians 14.

00:16:04.100 But we're going to start with the end of this passage on women and then read the beginning and show how they connect.

00:16:10.460 So please stay with us as it is critical for you to understand this passage.

00:16:14.420 Yep.

00:16:14.540 1 Corinthians 14, 37 through 38.

00:16:17.540 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.

00:16:24.880 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

00:16:28.880 Okay, so Veronica just read the end of the passage that we're going to be discussing in this episode.

00:16:36.760 And wow, I'm going to read it one more time because it's a powerful piece of scripture.

00:16:42.400 It says, if anyone thinks that he is a prophet or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things that I'm writing to you are a command of the Lord.

00:16:53.560 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

00:16:58.620 Okay, this is rare for Paul to drop his apostolic authority in this extreme level.

00:17:04.740 But that's what he does right here.

00:17:07.040 The second thing I want to point out is that he's expecting resistance.

00:17:10.740 It's, he opens up this line with, hey, if anyone thinks that he's a prophet or spiritual,

00:17:15.500 he needs to acknowledge that the things I'm writing to you, they're not written for me.

00:17:19.000 They're a command of the Lord himself.

00:17:21.920 That's, that's like, he's expecting some resistance to what he just wrote.

00:17:26.820 And so just keep that in mind.

00:17:29.000 Point number three I want to make is, he says, these things that I'm writing to you are a command of the Lord.

00:17:34.540 Remember, we just talked about, about customs and, and principles.

00:17:37.740 And how often does the Lord personally give commands that are only for one local church?

00:17:46.360 Never.

00:17:47.180 That doesn't happen in anywhere in scripture where Jesus is giving specific, unique commands

00:17:52.160 that aren't applicable to any other church except this one church.

00:17:55.440 That doesn't happen anywhere in scripture.

00:17:58.020 How often does the Lord give commands which are actually just local customs

00:18:02.060 and not universal principles to the church?

00:18:04.860 No, that never happens either.

00:18:06.840 So, the Lord gives commands that are universal.

00:18:10.080 That's the point I'm trying to make here.

00:18:13.680 And if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

00:18:19.180 Wow, that is a powerful statement by the apostle.

00:18:22.320 And I'm going to explain what he's saying there.

00:18:24.740 He said that, first he said, anyone.

00:18:27.280 So, just a huge word.

00:18:29.080 They're not just someone in Corinth, but just anyone.

00:18:31.200 He says, if they don't recognize what I just wrote to you, then Paul himself will not recognize you as a member of the church.

00:18:43.640 That's what he's saying right there.

00:18:45.460 Now, he could even be saying, recognize you as a Christian.

00:18:48.440 I don't want to go that far.

00:18:50.160 But I definitely believe he's saying, if you don't recognize the command that I just wrote to you,

00:18:55.400 then me the apostle sent by jesus christ himself would not recognize you as a member of the church

00:19:01.720 pretty powerful verbiage there yeah so the big question we must answer is what did paul just

00:19:08.040 what is the command of the lord that if i don't recognize it means that he wouldn't recognize me

00:19:13.200 as a member of the church um so let's go back and read the previous four verses um and then

00:19:18.460 figure out how they connect with this passage yep uh first corinthians 14 verse 33 through 36 0.91

00:19:23.860 As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the law also says. 1.00

00:19:33.600 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 1.00

00:19:42.760 Or was it you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 1.00

00:19:47.700 if anyone thinks that he is a prophet or spiritual he should acknowledge that the things i am writing

00:19:53.060 to you are a command of the lord if anyone does not recognize this he is not recognized

00:19:58.020 there you go right so veronica put it all together right there is that what he's talking about

00:20:05.300 he's expecting resistance to the doctrine about women it was a problem then it's a problem now

00:20:11.380 Um, he, he, he, um, we realized that this intense command and this recognition of spiritual, uh,

00:20:20.520 belonging to the church is about women in the church. It's probably one of the most intense

00:20:27.520 passages that Paul writes out there. And so I want to make a couple important points for you

00:20:33.600 guys to consider. First, I didn't write it. So it's nice to be able to say that. And so if you're

00:20:42.680 frustrated at this for any reason, you get to go and take that up with the Lord. And I'm just

00:20:48.960 interpreting it according to what it says. Point number two, the section of the letter is speaking

00:20:54.980 to how a church should order their local church gathering. Okay, the verses that are right before

00:21:02.740 this passage on the women are talking about how the prophets or the teachers in the local church

00:21:08.880 should be presenting and reasoning the word of God in the local gathering. And so that's the

00:21:16.120 context that he just comes off the heels of how the prophets and teachers should be communicating

00:21:21.600 in the local meeting. And then it moves in and talking about the women. What Paul is saying here

00:21:27.200 is that while many things changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant,

00:21:34.060 women contending for the faith in the local gathering is not one of them.

00:21:39.580 And that's what he says right here in verse, I think it's 34.

00:21:43.720 He says, 1.00

00:21:45.020 The women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, 1.00

00:21:48.860 but should be in submission, as the law, capital L, also says. 1.00

00:21:54.120 What does he mean by that?

00:21:56.220 Well, a couple things that are important to mention is that, again,

00:22:00.840 some things change Old Covenant to New Covenant.

00:22:02.720 Lots of things change Old Covenant to New Covenant.

00:22:05.000 This wasn't one of them in terms of the societal behaviors inside the meeting of God's people.

00:22:12.300 And if you go to an Orthodox synagogue today, you'll see that the men and women are separated.

00:22:19.200 And some of them just maybe they're even intertwined.

00:22:22.020 but there's definitely not women contending for the faith in that meeting of people.

00:22:28.660 And Paul's saying that this is a command of the Lord, and it's going to remain the same.

00:22:34.540 Verse 35, which says, 0.55

00:22:37.600 If there is anything that they desire to learn, they the women, 1.00

00:22:41.160 let them ask their husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 1.00

00:22:47.520 Okay, I want to talk about this for a second. 0.93

00:22:51.580 Why would God say this?

00:22:54.180 Why would God say, hey, if you have a question, ask your husband at home.

00:22:57.340 But be silent.

00:22:58.040 Don't ask it in the meeting.

00:22:58.980 Ask it at home.

00:23:01.320 I want to just explain from our own experience what that has shown.

00:23:07.540 So Veronica and I, we've been married for, we're in our 10th year of marriage right now.

00:23:11.460 And so every time over our 10 years of marriage, if Veronica has a question for the church meeting,

00:23:19.600 We're at the church meeting.

00:23:20.900 The pastor says something.

00:23:22.480 A teacher says something.

00:23:24.160 She has a question.

00:23:25.060 She might write it down.

00:23:27.060 She doesn't go to Google.

00:23:28.400 She doesn't go to her friend.

00:23:29.760 She doesn't go to the pastor himself.

00:23:31.280 She doesn't go to her friend over here or another man.

00:23:35.460 She comes to me.

00:23:37.260 What does that do to me?

00:23:41.560 It makes you want to have the answers.

00:23:44.480 It does.

00:23:45.020 It makes me go.

00:23:45.900 It makes you want to provide that answer for me

00:23:48.480 and to go look into the word yourself.

00:23:50.920 It's a great strategy to actually get me to go seek out the word.

00:23:55.640 Ladies, if you want your husbands to get in the scriptures,

00:23:58.960 ask them questions about the scriptures in a humble heart.

00:24:02.320 And okay, so one, we figured out that there's actually a purpose in this practice

00:24:07.740 is that, man, you have a question and you ask me at home,

00:24:12.300 it actually stimulates me to get back into the word.

00:24:15.300 It's almost kind of like a leading from behind moment.

00:24:17.540 now let's just say um that over these the next 20 years of our marriage every time you have a

00:24:25.660 question um our daughter aria watches mom has a question about spiritual things from church she

00:24:33.160 goes and asks dad what does that teach aria to find a man who knows the word and can provide her

00:24:40.220 the answer exactly also to be a woman in submission to her husband and honoring her husband

00:24:46.500 yes awesome and now let's just look at the the other side is let's just say that we have two

00:24:53.740 little boys honor and valor and over 20 years these little boys see mom always asking dad

00:25:01.500 these spiritual questions what does it teach your little boys to have the answers yeah they need to

00:25:07.800 become men that have the answers and to find a woman who honors and respects them yes seeks after

00:25:13.840 them to have that knowledge and expects them to have that knowledge see this is really important

00:25:18.760 that god's practices reinforce his purposes and we have to like just not when we hear something

00:25:25.020 that's just uncomfortable we can't just immediately get frustrated we need to look deeper into some of 1.00

00:25:30.280 these things and um um so it says in the same verse for it is shameful for a woman to speak

00:25:37.240 in church. Shameful. That's a big word. It actually means it's dishonoring to God for a woman to speak 1.00

00:25:45.520 in church. Dishonoring. This is a crazy statement, especially in light of how many churches operate 1.00

00:25:51.960 today. Now, does this mean that a woman can't sing at church? Can she not correct her child 0.99

00:26:00.580 who is being disruptive at church?

00:26:04.200 I hope not because that happens to us a lot.

00:26:07.160 Can she not make a request for prayer at the church?

00:26:13.460 I don't take that interpretation.

00:26:16.580 And here's why.

00:26:18.320 In Acts 2.42, it says that the church gathered for four things,

00:26:23.180 to labor in the apostles' doctrine, for fellowship,

00:26:26.660 for the breaking of bread, and for prayers.

00:26:28.720 So it's saying that there's actually sections of the meeting.

00:26:32.360 I think that 1 Corinthians 14 whole section, even above this passage that we're talking about, implies that as well.

00:26:40.080 There's times for hymns and singing.

00:26:41.840 There's times for teaching time. 0.97

00:26:44.980 And I believe what this passage is teaching us is that in the local church, the women should be silent during the teaching time, the contending of the faith. 0.98

00:26:57.500 They shouldn't be teaching and there shouldn't be questioning or challenging or contending or reasoning or, you know, in the meeting with the men. 0.95

00:27:09.320 I think that's what it's saying here.

00:27:12.260 Now, let's look quickly at verse 36 and it says,

00:27:16.200 Or is it from you that the word of God came?

00:27:18.980 Or are you the only ones that it reached?

00:27:22.060 These are two sarcastic rhetorical questions that have an obvious no.

00:27:27.820 What that means is Paul saying, did the word of God come from the Greeks?

00:27:32.880 No, it came from the Jews and it came from Zion and it came from God's word.

00:27:39.040 The gospel came from there too.

00:27:41.180 And Paul knows he was a Pharisee and he knows,

00:27:44.740 and trust me, you Greeks who are prideful in your wisdom, 0.84

00:27:48.940 if you understand the cultural context of this letter.

00:27:52.980 He's letting people know, don't argue with me.

00:27:56.520 Don't fight me.

00:27:57.180 I promise that this is the wisdom of the Lord.

00:28:00.220 And he actually has so much expected resistance

00:28:03.880 that he ends up saying that statement of,

00:28:06.680 if you think you're a prophet or you think you're spiritual,

00:28:10.780 let it be known the things that I write to you

00:28:12.580 are a command of the Lord.

00:28:15.840 And verse 37.

00:28:18.940 Oh, sorry, I just read verse 37.

00:28:20.680 And again, it closes off with that passage.

00:28:24.300 If you do not recognize this, he is not recognized.

00:28:28.440 I just want to ask you a question.

00:28:29.840 If you gave this passage of scripture to an attorney and you said, hey, what does this mean?

00:28:34.000 What do you think they'd come back with?

00:28:36.500 Would they have to do theological gymnastics to get around it?

00:28:39.500 Let's just say that you took it to a 10-year-old and you say, hey, a group of 10-year-olds,

00:28:44.820 go read this passage of scripture and then form out a church meeting according to this passage 0.90

00:28:50.580 of scripture would they would the women be talking the girls be talking no it's pretty

00:28:56.280 evident and clear what this passage is saying it's amazing at what lengths we will go to avoid

00:29:02.640 the authority and jurisdiction of this passage yeah this passage can be really hard for a lot

00:29:09.380 of women to hear. Um, and I, it seems as though, uh, when they hear it, a lot of them will get 1.00

00:29:16.840 upset about this passage, almost as if it's an attack on their value. And frankly, that's just

00:29:22.440 not the case. Um, men and women are equally valuable, but different in their role, um,

00:29:27.640 and different in their marriages and their families and in the church. Um, so if you hear

00:29:32.500 this and you're upset, you're not seeing the bigger picture here. Um, men at their worst are

00:29:38.060 passive we know that um and god knows this women speak three to five times more than men 0.96

00:29:44.320 in our experience if you get five to seven couples in a room for a bible study the women

00:29:49.700 will naturally gravitate towards the praying um and sometimes even the teaching yeah definitely

00:29:55.040 the talking definitely the talking yeah spirituality um can somewhat can be somewhat of a um feminine

00:30:02.760 yeah type of experience yeah it's kind of feminine in nature um and that's why you're seeing so many

00:30:10.340 women take over almost every position on staff in the church these days um but ultimately we

00:30:16.620 get to conduct god's meeting god's way we don't get to bring our gifts our way that he gave us

00:30:24.040 we get to bring our gifts his way um we have to believe that god's practices like you had mentioned

00:30:30.940 earlier reinforce his purposes and instead of getting frustrated as women uh that you can't

00:30:37.360 speak for that one hour out of the 168 hours in the week be excited about what the lord is doing

00:30:42.540 in the men in your church uh when women don't speak the men have to yes um so be excited about

00:30:49.100 the man who was once passive but is now stepping up and stepping out of his comfort zone to pray

00:30:54.620 or to teach or to lead worship um at the core this is really just a self-control issue for women

00:31:00.780 which is one of the fruits of the spirit this is not oppression this isn't a diminished value

00:31:08.280 this is God's order for his meeting and we should be very careful to stand against it

00:31:13.680 very careful to stand against it yeah I think you're right we've actually seen this played

00:31:17.800 out in our own church we do we operate our little home gathering according to first

00:31:24.020 corinthians chapter 14 and and there's been many times where we've uh we've seen women that have

00:31:31.400 been obedient to this passage of scripture and are gifted communicators gifted teachers

00:31:37.220 why don't you share that story about uh there's that one example that i know we're thinking of

00:31:41.640 yeah there's a woman in our fellowship and she uh the men were discussing something in scripture

00:31:49.980 and you can just tell the spirit was moving in her and she was stirring and she really wanted to say

00:31:55.180 something but she was um being obedient to the word and sat there in silence um and prayed quietly

00:32:02.620 to herself um and as she finished praying quietly to herself you actually ended up speaking up and

00:32:12.400 saying the exact same thing that she wanted to share and she shared this with us after that's

00:32:16.540 i know um but she was like that's so cool she's like i was obedient i was really really struggling

00:32:21.200 because i really wanted to say something and i thought it was a good point she's like but i

00:32:23.960 didn't i stayed quiet i prayed and god used you god used the men and it was just really cool to

00:32:30.500 see it it's amazing to see if you just put the holy spirit at the head of the meeting that that

00:32:36.140 christ at the head of his church that he can take care of his meeting and make it edifying for

00:32:40.900 everybody. And so this isn't the only place, however, that this doctrine is taught. And again,

00:32:47.940 so if you're trying to escape the authority of this passage, you got to do it twice. And so we're

00:32:53.600 going to talk about the second place that this doctrine is taught. And again, I'm not speaking

00:33:00.960 or teaching on this with such authority because I think that the women need to be silent. That's 1.00

00:33:06.440 actually opposite of how I go, man, if I wrote it, I would probably have written it differently.

00:33:12.340 It took me many years for me to go, oh, my God, I understand why you have it this way.

00:33:18.540 And so hopefully my tone and the way that I teach this isn't coming off arrogant or intense.

00:33:25.120 I'm just trying to speak what it says.

00:33:27.580 And my heart is, I know that this is sometimes a hard journey for people to walk through

00:33:33.200 and to sit before the scriptures and evaluate them soberly.

00:33:38.760 The second place that this is taught is in 1 Timothy 3, 14 and 15.

00:33:45.140 I'm going to read you that verse real quick.

00:33:47.940 It says, these things I write to you.

00:33:49.620 Actually, sorry, I'm not going to read this passage.

00:33:51.820 I'm going to start backwards again.

00:33:53.640 And so this passage that we're going to talk about in 1 Timothy,

00:33:56.600 I'm going to go forward a few paragraphs

00:34:00.520 And we're going to start backwards at the very end.

00:34:03.740 Go to the front again, and then I'll show you how it connects one more time.

00:34:06.860 So bear with me.

00:34:07.880 1 Timothy 3, verse 14 and 15.

00:34:10.460 He says,

00:34:10.700 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly.

00:34:15.760 But if I'm delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God,

00:34:22.960 which is the church of the living God, the pillar and the ground of the truth.

00:34:27.340 So I want to explain what he's saying here.

00:34:29.960 He's saying, hey, Paul's like, hey, guys, I want to come to you,

00:34:32.860 but I'm going to write this letter just in case I can't make it to you.

00:34:35.740 And I want you guys to know how you ought to conduct yourself.

00:34:40.700 Like there's a way that you should or should not, ought or ought not.

00:34:44.540 It assumes a moral boundary of how you should behave yourself in the house of God,

00:34:51.200 which is where do churches meet at that time?

00:34:53.880 In houses.

00:34:54.440 In houses, the house of God.

00:34:55.860 which is the local church the house of god which is um uh which is the church of the living god

00:35:02.860 which is the universal church the pillar and the ground of the truth and means that the house of

00:35:08.160 the local church and the universal church is the pillar and the ground get a little visual going

00:35:14.900 here of the truth and the truth is god's word so we as a church are here to uphold god's truth in

00:35:22.840 the world. That's what the church does. So he says this, you go, okay, well, you just wrote how we

00:35:28.900 ought to conduct ourselves. Let's go figure out what you just told us. Let's go read those

00:35:33.020 instructions on how we ought to conduct ourselves. So if you pull back to first Timothy chapter two

00:35:38.920 and you start in verse eight, the title of my section in my Bible and my new King James Bible,

00:35:45.260 which has, you know, hundreds of theological editors, they titled this section men and women

00:35:51.680 in the church. So they all came to the same conclusion that this is talking about men and

00:35:56.520 women in the church. Verse 8, it says, I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting

00:36:02.900 up holy hands without wrath and doubting, and like manner also that the women adorn themselves in

00:36:08.480 modest apparel with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly

00:36:13.280 clothing, but which is proper for women professing godliness with good works. Let a woman learn in 0.94

00:36:19.300 silence with all submission and I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man 1.00

00:36:25.140 but to be in silence for Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived but the woman 0.98

00:36:32.840 being deceived fell into transgression nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue

00:36:38.640 in faith love and holiness with self-control so Paul actually gives us the reason why he doesn't

00:36:46.360 permit women to be teaching in the local church meeting um he says for adam was formed first

00:36:51.120 then eve and adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived fell into transgression

00:36:56.020 so he's saying two things first he's reinforcing that we as women were made for men and men were

00:37:02.640 not made for us um and following eve's design we were made to be the helper not the leader

00:37:08.500 secondly he points out that eve was the one who was deceived did you ever wonder why the serpent

00:37:14.200 didn't approach adam yeah because paul is teaching that the spiritual dna that was given to women 0.53

00:37:20.700 is more likely to be deceived than a man um in turn he's saying that this is why a woman should

00:37:26.740 refrain from teaching and having authority over a man yeah right um in james 3 verse 1 it says

00:37:34.440 my brethren let not many of you become teachers knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment

00:37:40.040 again this doesn't make us as women less it makes us different there are plenty of things

00:37:46.380 that women do far more efficiently than men but in the church meeting the scriptures are ultra

00:37:53.440 clear that we are not to be holding a position of teaching yeah um so let's see now i want to

00:38:00.100 remind you guys again that we don't believe that this doctrine applies to all facets of the

00:38:05.660 christian life if you want to teach a bible study or um teach at a conference go for it just take

00:38:12.260 heed the words of james um but i don't believe you're restricted by scripture um but if you're

00:38:19.760 asked to preach on a sunday morning at church i would caution you to sit before these scriptures

00:38:23.860 um and church history and make a sober evaluation yeah this is the really big point is that

00:38:30.820 we're talking about the role of women in the church. 0.53

00:38:35.300 And so, yeah, there's fantastic seminary professors that are women

00:38:41.360 that are teaching, but they're not teaching at the church. 0.98

00:38:45.100 They're teaching at seminary, which is not church.

00:38:48.180 And if you want to go teach a Bible study, go teach a Bible study. 1.00

00:38:52.220 I find it pretty fascinating that the women that do get frustrated 1.00

00:38:55.440 that they can't teach according to the scriptures. 1.00

00:39:00.820 they're usually the ones that aren't teaching during the week anyways.

00:39:03.800 So it's like, man, if you're actually teaching during the week

00:39:06.760 and you're getting to use that gifting in its fullness,

00:39:09.840 you're not usually frustrated that you have to,

00:39:13.300 that the Lord has requested you to be silent.

00:39:15.140 You have plenty of ministry.

00:39:16.520 Plenty of ministry, yeah. 0.99

00:39:17.560 The other thing that I've learned is that in a church filled with women 0.52

00:39:21.900 who are loved, cherished, and heard,

00:39:26.220 this doctrine doesn't rub that hard.

00:39:28.880 If you have a church filled with women who are just loved and their husbands care for them and they're heard and they're valued the way that the scriptures call us to value women, this passage doesn't really bother those women.

00:39:44.360 They're just ready to just be in their biblical role.

00:39:47.400 And that's just my experience.

00:39:49.300 um so before we close out i just want to talk quickly about the four common arguments which

00:39:57.700 are pretty funny some of them um but they are common arguments against this passage of scripture

00:40:03.340 or against this doctrine um the first one is uh the scribes wrote in this passage and this is a

00:40:13.920 real thing you guys can look up articles on this but they actually there's people that say oh it

00:40:19.060 was dark and they couldn't interpret the passage correctly as they transcribed it from one

00:40:25.240 document to the other. And they actually wrote this in the margin and eventually it made it into

00:40:29.900 the text. And, you know, these scribes are just kind of had their own opinion about women and

00:40:34.120 they wanted, and I just go, whoa. Sounds like a toddler, like child lying about trying to make

00:40:40.560 up this story to get out of trouble. I just go, if that's true, man, we can just escape any passage

00:40:47.460 of scripture by saying, uh, oh, the scribes wrote that passage and it actually wasn't Paul or he

00:40:52.620 didn't. Again, this is our creativity to escape the authority of scripture. So that's one. Um,

00:40:59.080 number two is what about first Corinthians 11? And this is probably the most valid argument in

00:41:05.540 terms of, I can see how people come to this conclusion. First Corinthians 11 talks about

00:41:11.480 creation order. It talks about women should be wearing their heads cover or covering their heads 1.00

00:41:16.380 when they pray or prophesy, and men should have a take or head coverings off when they 0.79

00:41:20.440 pray or prophesy. We did an entire podcast on that. You can find it

00:41:24.460 on relearnchurch.org. Now, what it's saying

00:41:28.440 is that, they're saying is that, hey, in 1 Corinthians chapter 14, Paul says

00:41:32.260 women can't teach. But just a couple chapters earlier, he says

00:41:36.380 that women can pray and prophesy as long as their heads are covered. 0.87

00:41:40.260 Is Paul some sort of schizophrenic maniac, and he doesn't know how to make decisions? 0.98

00:41:44.100 He says one thing over here and another thing over there. 1.00

00:41:46.540 No, Paul's not an idiot. 0.72

00:41:48.900 What's going on here is that if you read 1 Corinthians as a letter and not like one chapter at a time, 0.92

00:41:54.660 you'll realize that chapter 11 is talking about normal Christian life.

00:42:00.420 And chapter 14 is talking about life in the church meeting.

00:42:05.960 And it goes normal Christian life, chapter 11, it talks about communion.

00:42:09.620 Then chapter 12, it talks about spiritual gifts.

00:42:11.100 Chapter 13 is saying, hey, those gifts don't matter if you don't love people.

00:42:14.100 Chapter 14 is spiritual gifts and usage in the church

00:42:16.840 and then local church at the very end

00:42:18.080 and then the resurrection in chapter 15.

00:42:19.820 Like there's a flow to this thing.

00:42:22.180 And so what chapter 11 is saying

00:42:25.140 is that you can pray or prophesy with your head covered

00:42:27.980 is what it's saying.

00:42:28.860 It's not talking about church. 0.99

00:42:30.440 So Paul is not an idiot that's contradicting himself. 0.98

00:42:36.980 Number three is pretty common 0.99

00:42:39.420 is the women in Corinth were exceptionally loud. 0.99

00:42:44.100 Um, there's articles I'm telling you by like people who know their Bible and write these,

00:42:49.680 these arguments that they come up with this theory that the women in Corinth were exceptionally

00:42:56.760 loud and Paul needed to create this local custom specifically for them.

00:43:01.240 Um, and I go, man, that's so weird that the Lord is going to create a custom just for

00:43:05.680 one church here.

00:43:07.560 Um, but that's, that's one thing.

00:43:09.380 And I, I just go, this is folklore.

00:43:12.000 There's nowhere in Scripture that says that the women in Corinth were exceptionally loud

00:43:18.120 and that they needed a passage of Scripture to quiet them down.

00:43:22.500 And the number four common argument is,

00:43:27.020 but what about the Old Testament women like Deborah or Esther or the Proverbs 31 woman?

00:43:34.580 And again, these are great women,

00:43:36.760 But we can't take the Old Testament descriptions of how these women behaved in Israel's theocracy

00:43:45.460 and turn them into the doctrines of how women should behave in the local church under a new covenant.

00:43:53.840 They are totally different things.

00:43:56.720 And so it's great what Deborah did and that God called her to do that.

00:44:00.780 it's very different when the doctrines of the new testament have superseded the doctrines of the old

00:44:06.640 testament and now there are clear instructions on how women should behave in church and we can't

00:44:13.900 just ignore those because of what had historically occurred in the old testament okay we're closing

00:44:21.720 now guys and i know i know i've been talking a lot but i wanted to make sure that we're ultra clear

00:44:26.360 today. Ultimately, ladies, men, you have to ask yourself, are you wanting to be biblical regardless

00:44:37.380 of popularity or comfort or sometimes even understanding? We have to remember that

00:44:44.000 the Bible says that God's as high as the heavens are above the earth,

00:44:51.420 So are my thoughts above your thoughts and my ways above your ways.

00:44:55.040 Like, God has a way to do things that sometimes we don't understand.

00:45:00.520 And would you rather stand before the Lord and go,

00:45:02.800 Lord, I followed your instructions as it was written.

00:45:07.700 And him go, thank you, you honorable child, for following those instructions.

00:45:16.020 You are so faithful in that and obedient.

00:45:18.640 But actually, I didn't mean that.

00:45:20.500 But your heart was so good.

00:45:22.380 Thank you.

00:45:23.340 Would you rather that response from the Lord?

00:45:25.420 Or would you rather say, Lord, I actually assumed that you didn't mean what you wrote.

00:45:30.540 So I thought I would do it my way, which I think was a little bit better.

00:45:35.560 And I hope that's okay.

00:45:37.380 Like, imagine standing before the Lord saying that, in him responding, why didn't you obey me in this matter?

00:45:44.260 It was clearly written.

00:45:45.720 and so you gotta sit and go what side do i want to err on um jesus countless times throughout the

00:45:55.880 new testament and the gospels says if you love me you'll keep my commandments and paul says that

00:46:02.640 this is a command of the lord and so you get to sit here and evaluate this the question you got

00:46:08.340 to ask yourself is one do you believe how we are teaching this passage of scripture is correct and

00:46:14.580 I'm not saying that I'm 100% right.

00:46:16.840 I'm saying that I'm confident of what I'm teaching

00:46:19.880 based off of the study that I've done.

00:46:23.220 Do you believe that that's what it's saying?

00:46:25.280 And then the second thing you have to ask yourself is,

00:46:27.540 do you love Jesus?

00:46:28.980 Because if you do, you'll keep his commandments.

00:46:32.460 So that is the close of this episode.

00:46:38.560 Hot topic today.

00:46:39.860 Hot topic today and excited for you guys to walk that journey out.

00:46:44.580 As we close out, just a reminder, if you guys haven't, would you guys please leave a review?

00:46:50.240 They are very helpful for increasing the exposure of this show to other believers.

00:46:56.480 And on that note, we will see you guys next Wednesday for another episode of Real Christianity.

00:47:04.660 Take care.

Dale Partridge - April 24, 2019

Real Christianity #42： The Biblical Role of Women in the Church

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