Dale Partridge - Reasons Why Postmillennialism Absolutely Matters - Dale Partridge & Joel Webbon

00:00:00.000 What is postmillennialism and why is it an important eschatological understanding for

00:00:05.360 us to have as Christians? Today, I'm going to be talking with Pastor Joel Webbin. We're going to

00:00:10.180 have a great conversation, give you the basics and an introduction to the concept. All that

00:00:13.660 more coming up right now. 0.99

00:00:30.000 Welcome to this special edition of Real Christianity.

00:00:36.840 If you're watching this on the video version of our show,

00:00:40.660 we have Pastor Joel Webin from Texas with me

00:00:44.280 talking about the, I would say,

00:00:47.720 very important and very popular discussion

00:00:50.400 of eschatology right now.

00:00:52.120 This morning, I actually watched an episode

00:00:54.680 from Jack Hibbs, who was on the news,

00:00:58.900 national news covering the discussion that it said 40 percent no actually i think it was 60

00:01:05.480 it was somewhere between 40 and 60 of american christians believe that we are quote in the end

00:01:12.340 times now that is obviously just a really nobody's ever believed that before wow and so that's novel

00:01:17.980 uh we we know as christians who have studied their bible that anytime past the resurrection

00:01:24.080 and ascension of Jesus that we are in the end times.

00:01:27.180 And so we're going to talk about post-millennialism.

00:01:31.540 What is it?

00:01:32.360 But we're going to also answer just some of the basic questions

00:01:37.040 on what is premillennialism?

00:01:40.500 What is dispensationalism?

00:01:42.220 What is amillennialism?

00:01:43.800 And what is post-millennialism?

00:01:45.300 And how should those inform the way that we live and act as Christians?

00:01:50.860 Now, this is one of those topics that you can write a 900 page book on.

00:01:56.140 And so we're going to, we're going to go as deep as we can.

00:01:59.060 And Joel, I would say knows more on this topic than I do,

00:02:02.800 but it will banter back and forth on this issue.

00:02:05.460 So where do you want to start?

00:02:08.340 I think it would be really helpful for your listeners.

00:02:10.580 First and foremost, thanks for having me on the show.

00:02:12.400 Yeah.

00:02:12.600 But I think it'll be helpful for the listeners if,

00:02:15.320 and this is something I don't typically do.

00:02:16.820 i typically uh address things very very very long

00:02:22.760 just very thorough painfully thorough but i thought maybe we could just give them snapshots

00:02:29.560 like here here's a brief concise 30 000 foot view of all three positions yes and then come in with

00:02:36.380 a long-form discussion and and pulling out you know the implications okay let's do it okay

00:02:41.200 so uh let's start with so pre-mill all-mill post-mill okay those are the three main positions

00:02:51.660 and technically you could say that there's really kind of four because pre-mill kind of has two

00:02:56.820 subcategories main subcategories of the historic pre-mill position and then the um all too popular

00:03:03.260 uh dispensational pre-mill position and that's where you would find guys like jack hibbs that's

00:03:08.000 that would also be John MacArthur. That's the left behind series. So if you subscribe to the

00:03:12.220 left behind series of eschatology, that's dispensational premillennialism. Right. Which

00:03:16.820 is people, at least in Western culture, especially in America, I would say that most people, if you're

00:03:23.940 saying what's dispensational premillennialism, that would be the equivalent of two fish, you

00:03:28.000 know, swimming up next to each other in the ocean. And one of the fish says, man, the water sure is

00:03:32.460 ice today and the other fish says what's water yeah you know so uh you're you're a dispensational

00:03:38.060 pre-mill uh long before you're um a born again regenerate christian yeah this is something that

00:03:44.700 dispensational premillennialism is essentially the air we breathe in america um even non-christians

00:03:51.100 even non-christians think in dispensational terms yes yeah that's that's the framework

00:03:55.100 which is water which again we're if we were fish just to have some basic history on dispensationalism

00:04:00.700 It wasn't a part of the historical doctrine of the church.

00:04:05.160 It came out in 1830 with the gentleman's name, Darby.

00:04:10.500 Gentleman's name, Darby, he is producing a different way

00:04:16.140 to look at the history of the Bible through dispensations

00:04:19.640 rather than through covenants.

00:04:21.340 And we don't have time to talk about that,

00:04:24.560 but that is, again, it wasn't historic to the church.

00:04:27.660 It had never been viewed that way prior.

00:04:30.700 to that time and um which is why it's different than the historic pre-millennial position

00:04:37.160 so i'll let you dive into pre-millennialism and you know what the millennium is and things like

00:04:43.240 that yeah so that was john nelson darby and then it really was popularized a little bit later

00:04:48.240 in 1909 by the scofield reference bible yes so scofield um really took darby's thoughts and made

00:04:55.840 them popular in the sense that this was, if you think of like the John MacArthur, uh, study Bible

00:05:00.260 or reformation has scrolls, you know, his, um, edit notes and stuff like that. Uh, this Schofield

00:05:05.900 Bible took dispensational, um, dispensational exegesis from Darby and put it in the margins.

00:05:14.160 So, and it became such a popular Bible that, you know, all these people are reading this Bible

00:05:19.120 and just thought, this is how you interpret the text. So it was a formative resource that

00:05:25.180 essentially that shaped a generation shaped a generation of how they view eschatology that

00:05:29.580 was inconsistent with how previous generations that's right had viewed eschatology right so we

00:05:34.160 have three main views pre-mill uh all-mill and post-mill within the pre-mill there are technically

00:05:38.680 two subcategories historic premillennialism and dispensational premillennialism to draw that

00:05:44.320 distinction very very briefly is uh the dispensational premillennialism is a novel

00:05:49.960 position that's really only existed for about 150 years, that would be Darby and then popularized

00:05:55.660 by Scofield and in the Left Behind series. The big difference between that and historic

00:06:01.220 premillennialism, which would have been guys as early as, you know, second century, like

00:06:06.060 Justin Martyr. The difference is that the historic premillennialism doesn't emphasize or even

00:06:14.180 necessarily hold to a rapture. That's the big difference. So your dispensational premillennialism

00:06:19.900 is your quintessential view that Jesus is going to come back

00:06:24.340 for a secret rapture of the church,

00:06:26.840 exclusively the people of God who are born again.

00:06:29.620 And that's typically going to be a pre-trib rapture,

00:06:32.980 meaning it's going to occur before seven years of tribulation.

00:06:37.400 And then after the seven years of tribulation,

00:06:40.120 then Jesus will return a second time

00:06:42.440 to establish his literal 1,000-year millennial reign on earth,

00:06:47.540 seated on a rebuilt temple davidic throne uh ruling from the place of israel so with a

00:06:54.600 re-establishment of the sacrificial system right all of these things that uh and in their defense

00:06:59.420 you know they would say not because christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient but this sacrificial

00:07:04.320 animal sacrificial system being reinstated would serve as a memorial looking back to the atoning

00:07:10.400 sufficient sacrifice of jesus and what he's accomplished strange but yes to be strange

00:07:14.400 Yeah, strange, but it wouldn't be fair to say that that aspect is full-blown heresy.

00:07:20.160 So all that being said, so the historic premillennialism is just the idea that pre, so to make it very simple, premillennialism means that Jesus is going to return before this millennial reign of Christ.

00:07:32.920 So the millennium is, well, it's a sci-fi spaceship that was used by Han Solo.

00:07:42.280 No, I'm just kidding.

00:07:43.220 That's not the kind of, that's the millennium, Falcon.

00:07:46.680 But no, the millennium is, it's simply a thousand-year rule and reign of Christ as king.

00:07:52.780 Not just savior meek and mild, but as king.

00:07:55.040 Now, the question is, of course, that word millennium refers to 1,000.

00:07:59.900 It's a numerical view.

00:08:01.280 So the pre-mill is going to believe that that's a literal 1,000 years.

00:08:05.860 And what makes it pre is really what you're talking about is simply the return of Christ.

00:08:10.060 Does Christ return before the millennium where he rules and reigns for 1,000 years or after?

00:08:16.040 So post-millennialism is simply saying that Christ is going to return at the end of his millennial reign.

00:08:22.540 Pre-millennialism is that Christ is going to return before his millennial reign.

00:08:27.820 And all millennialism, technically that word all would be like amoral, you know, or all sexual, asexual.

00:08:37.220 So it's the antithesis.

00:08:38.860 It's that there is no millennium, but that's not fair to today's average all millennial, you know, theologian.

00:08:47.240 They would say, no, we believe in a millennial reign of Christ.

00:08:51.060 It's all in the sense we're anti or against a millennial view.

00:08:55.900 in the sense that we don't believe it's a literal thousand years and we believe that we're in it

00:09:02.040 right now, which is fair. That's the same view as the post-millennial, but the big difference

00:09:07.800 between all-mill and post-mill is that the all-millennial typically would date the beginning

00:09:14.080 of this millennial reign of Christ at the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ,

00:09:20.500 the inauguration of the kingdom, whereas the post-millennial actually would date it in AD 70,

00:09:26.860 that the beginning of this millennial reign of Christ actually starts with the destruction of

00:09:32.020 Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70, so about a 40-year difference. So the all-mill and the

00:09:36.520 post-mill disagree in two regards. We disagree a little bit about the timing, but for the most part,

00:09:41.440 we agree on the timing of the millennial reign of Christ, but we disagree a little bit in regards

00:09:45.580 to the start. Is it the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, or is it AD 70,

00:09:50.800 approximately 40 years later in the destruction of the temple? That's one difference between

00:09:54.900 post-mill and all-mill is the start of the timing. Other than that, though, the timing factor of the

00:10:00.440 millennium, the time factor post-mill and all-mill agree on, but the nature of the millennium, the

00:10:06.940 nature of this rule of Christ in this millennial period, that's where the all-mill and the post-mill

00:10:12.120 actually disagree sharply.

00:10:14.040 The all-mill is going to see this millennial reign of Christ

00:10:17.500 in a much more ethereal, spiritual sense.

00:10:21.100 Whereas the post-millennial is going to say,

00:10:23.000 it is a spiritual reign and Christ is literally seated

00:10:25.860 at the right hand of the Father ruling in heaven,

00:10:28.200 but he has all authority on earth and heaven.

00:10:30.700 Which of course, to be fair, again, I don't want to straw man,

00:10:33.260 virtually every all-millennial is going to say,

00:10:35.120 of course Christ has all authority on earth.

00:10:37.700 But they act as if there is no true authority

00:10:41.380 on earth because they've spiritualized essentially the millennium reign of christ right essentially

00:10:49.180 there is no kingdom in history in terms of uh earthly history there's no human history

00:10:55.520 manifestation of that kingdom it only manifests in spiritual terms right it only manifests in

00:11:01.680 terms of evangelism regeneration church planting insofar as church planting serves as gospel

00:11:08.300 outpost for the purpose of regeneration, but it doesn't really, that kingdom is not, that mustard

00:11:14.660 seed is not growing into a tree and that leaven is not working through the whole batch of dough

00:11:18.700 in terms of culture, in terms of Christendom, in terms of art and science and education and media.

00:11:26.480 Right. And so there's a lot of people who are all millennial who would really push back on the idea

00:11:31.860 of a Christian nation. And not just that, they'd have a problem with a Christian school. They would

00:11:37.360 say the only thing that really can be Christian is a person, an individual person. I've heard

00:11:41.800 all millennial guys, some of the Westminster Two Kingdom, radical Two Kingdom guys that

00:11:45.980 have problems even with the idea of a Christian family. You know, they like it in the sense that 0.99

00:11:51.020 they're Presbyterian and they have a new covenant understanding, you know, in terms of children

00:11:56.240 being a part of the covenant if they're children believers. But still, even then, they struggle

00:12:01.540 with this idea of, are you really a Christian family if not every single member of your family

00:12:06.380 is regenerate. Yeah. And so we need to see that, yeah, between the amillennial and postmillennial

00:12:11.780 position, we have this kingdom that essentially isn't materializing. But we have to remember that

00:12:18.520 as Christians, the evangelization of a nation should ultimately result in the Christianization

00:12:27.880 of a nation because we know that our Christianity doesn't remain uninfluential in our decisions on

00:12:37.300 how we, it doesn't remain private because it changes the way that we do our banking. It changes

00:12:43.140 the way that we do our finances. It changes the way that we run our businesses. It changes the

00:12:47.040 way that we raise our children and the way that we educate the people in our home, the way that

00:12:52.400 we consume media, the way that we vote. It changes all these things so that when a person is

00:12:58.340 regenerate, it should materialize into physical reality. Right. There should be a physical,

00:13:05.620 tangible impact. And that is really the glory of the kingdom of God or the radiance of the

00:13:12.820 kingdom of God coming through Christ's people. Right. So we believe the Christian faith is a

00:13:20.040 visible faith, we believe that it's a public faith, and we believe that it's a potent faith.

00:13:26.140 And I think that's my problem. And again, not trying to characterize or straw man,

00:13:30.800 but that's my problem in general with many, maybe not all, but many all millennials is that, you 0.99

00:13:37.360 know, I've often described it like this. Premal believes that the kingdom is not yet, but soon.

00:13:44.620 Postmill believes it's already, but not fully.

00:13:48.480 And all millennials believe that it's already, but not really.

00:13:52.580 Yes.

00:13:53.360 Not already, but not yet.

00:13:55.300 Already, but not really.

00:13:56.920 It's already here, but not really.

00:13:59.300 It's an impotent kingdom.

00:14:01.120 It's an impotent kingdom.

00:14:01.940 And you have to know that in reformed Christendom,

00:14:07.360 the vast majority of people are amillennial and postmillennial.

00:14:12.360 In the reform world.

00:14:13.060 and the reform world there is john macarthur obviously and john piper um and some of the other

00:14:21.860 theologians of yesteryear were in that position as well um but of you know uh sinclair ferguson

00:14:30.720 or rc sproll or um godfrey godfrey or uh tom schreiner um you know some of these great

00:14:38.520 theologians that are here are not holding that premillennial position, historic or dispensational.

00:14:44.500 And so when we talk about that, yeah, the premillennial has to recognize if you hold

00:14:50.140 this position, that they can't say that there's actually a kingdom right now. And that's kind of

00:14:57.700 the vernacular of the Christian world is that, you know, we're going to do some kingdom work.

00:15:01.600 Well, if you're a premillennial and you're going to be consistent with what you're saying,

00:15:04.420 there really is no kingdom that's right yet not yet there is no kingdom yet there is a church

00:15:09.280 uh but there is no kingdom in the pre-millennial view you're correct and so um my journey and it

00:15:16.440 might be helpful to share your journey is that i went from uh the fish that was wet in dispensational

00:15:21.660 pre-millennialism um studied at also the master's seminary for a time under john macarthur and

00:15:27.740 the faculty there, which I love dearly. And then shifted into the amillennial position,

00:15:35.120 Votie Bauckham sits in the amillennial position. And then, you know, having had such a close

00:15:41.900 relationship over the years with Doug Wilson, Doug had been, you know, continuing to show me

00:15:48.360 a variety of perspectives on post-millennialism. And then I realized that Augustine held these

00:15:56.340 positions. And arguably Calvin held these positions. And the vast majority of Puritans

00:16:02.640 held these positions. The founder of Banner of Truth, Ian Murray, holds these positions. And

00:16:09.980 Jonathan Edwards, which is arguably America's greatest theologian, held this position.

00:16:15.520 Many of the Puritans, if not half or over half.

00:16:19.040 Yeah. Held the post-millennial position. And B.B. Warfield and J. Gresham Mason. 0.97

00:16:25.040 and some of the men that I've really looked up to.

00:16:27.980 Surprisingly, not Abraham Kuyper, though. 1.00

00:16:29.820 He was all-mill.

00:16:30.860 Well, you know, what's interesting is that I had to read- 0.72

00:16:32.880 But he served the post-mills well.

00:16:34.320 Yeah, I had to read a lot of these Puritan works

00:16:39.140 at the Master's Seminary.

00:16:42.360 And so, again, there's a respect for one another.

00:16:45.640 None of these are heretical views,

00:16:47.820 but it is important that you understand the difference

00:16:50.820 between the pre-mill and that historically,

00:16:52.680 And I would say the most potent Christianity in the last millennia was really that Puritan era.

00:17:00.020 Like it was just, I mean, when you read Puritan work and the Puritan prayers, you just go, I'm not this mature.

00:17:07.560 I'm not this aggressive or assertive or invasive or intense about the gospel, but they are.

00:17:14.260 And so there's something there that was driving them.

00:17:17.180 And the American Puritans particularly, I mean, you have William Perkins and guys who, you know, you have the English side of things, but then you have the ones who came to the new world.

00:17:26.980 They especially, it was their post-millennial eschatology that was the driving force that caused them to be able to risk life and limb, to cross oceans, to start this new world.

00:17:38.960 But they really believe that the society, that the churches that they would plant, first and foremost, and that the families that they would build, the posterity that they would have, that this would be a city on a hill.

00:17:54.060 But they also believe that the society that they would build at large, the cities, the colonies, the nation that would become out of this American experiment would be a city on a hill.

00:18:04.540 And not in the same way in a one-to-one ratio with the uniqueness of the nation state of Israel under the old covenant. 0.70

00:18:11.780 They were using that language because it's good language and it was true and they were right.

00:18:16.320 They weren't saying that America would be the replacement for Israel. 0.86

00:18:21.000 If there's any replacement, which I don't appreciate that term, it comes actually from a pejorative of replacement theology.

00:18:26.920 But if there is any replacement for Israel, it would be the church, not America.

00:18:31.000 but america has been a city on a hill not in the same light not in the same way um but there has

00:18:37.240 been no nation in the last 500 years that has been more benevolent that is lent towards um

00:18:43.000 eradicating poverty disease crime uh that is i mean when you think about just even the world

00:18:49.040 economy and i'm not talking about a globalism that comes from klaus schwab and the guys you know

00:18:54.440 who are maniacally laughing and trying to you know end everyone's life but a good sense of

00:18:59.480 globalism still with the distinct sovereign nations but being able to participate in with

00:19:04.280 one another in such a way that economies flourish and uh and that cost of living is driven down and

00:19:10.280 innovation is on the rise that was accomplished by america not being the the world police but as

00:19:16.680 doug wilson has said it being the world coast guard making the seas getting rid of pirating

00:19:21.480 and allowing for nations to be able to interact and engage at the level of markets with one another

00:19:27.740 America has done all of that and more.

00:19:30.320 And in that sense, it has been a light to the world.

00:19:33.360 It has.

00:19:34.400 Amen.

00:19:35.280 Amen.

00:19:35.920 So where do we want to go?

00:19:38.480 Yeah.

00:19:38.840 So I would say, okay, so with premillennialism, there's three main things.

00:19:43.440 It's a Christ second coming.

00:19:45.280 It's pre. 0.94

00:19:45.820 It's right before the millennial reign. 0.88

00:19:47.400 And they would hold.

00:19:48.200 The second thing is that it's a literal thousand years and it's at some point in our future.

00:19:53.060 And then the third thing is that premillennials, whether it be historic or dispensational, but especially the dispensational premillennial, is going to see the world is generally getting progressively worse until Christ finally returns.

00:20:06.520 The postmillennial is going to believe that Christ's second coming will follow his millennial reign.

00:20:11.500 So we believe that we're actually in the millennial reign of Christ right now, and that his physical return that's in our future, not just in the future of the immediate audience that the New Testament writers were addressing, but in our future as well, here in the 2000s, we believe that Christ, his physical return will come at the end in our future, and that will be the end of the millennial reign.

00:20:35.500 reign. We also believe that this millennial reign is not a literal thousand years, very likely could

00:20:40.700 be 10,000 years, 20,000 years. And it's comprised from 80, 70 to all the way to Jesus' final

00:20:47.100 physical return. And we generally see the world as getting progressively better. Not that there

00:20:52.800 aren't dips and spikes along the way, just like the stock market there, you know, it's not a

00:20:57.680 perfectly, perfectly inclining line. There are dips and spikes along the way, but the trend is

00:21:04.380 generally up. And then all-mill, the three things about all-millennialism would be Christ's second

00:21:08.920 coming. Again, like post-mill, we'll follow the millennial reign. We're currently in that

00:21:13.700 millennium. It's not necessarily a literal thousand years, but it started, the millennium is comprised

00:21:18.980 from the time of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, and it will end with his second,

00:21:26.160 his final physical return, which is in our future. And they generally see the world as being

00:21:31.680 being conformed more to the image of christ but allowing for an up and down struggle between good

00:21:39.040 and evil until christ returned the world won't necessarily always be progressing or digressing

00:21:45.200 christ will return when he sees fit and he could return at a down point or an up point but overall

00:21:51.360 the world is going to be kind of kind of at an equilibrium it's not it's not this trending up so

00:21:59.040 So those are the three main aspects of those.

00:22:01.280 And I guess the easiest way to say it is that pre-mill and post-mill,

00:22:05.780 we agree on the nature of the millennial reign of Christ.

00:22:09.440 And then all-mill and post-mill, we agree on the timing.

00:22:13.840 So when you think of the millennial reign of Christ,

00:22:16.280 this time period where Christ is ruling and reigning in human history,

00:22:20.840 you and I as post-millennials,

00:22:22.820 we agree with our all-millennial brothers in regards to the timing.

00:22:26.780 We both agree that we're in the millennium now.

00:22:29.040 But we strongly disagree on the nature of the millennial reign of Christ.

00:22:34.460 They believe that it's more so an ethereal, spiritual reign,

00:22:37.620 whereas we think that it's spiritual and strongly physical with tangible results.

00:22:43.440 But the pre-mill, when I look at someone like John MacArthur

00:22:46.760 and he talks about what the millennial reign of Christ will be

00:22:49.680 and what it'll look like, I'm like, I've got more in common with him

00:22:53.180 than I have the all-mill brothers that I have in Christ.

00:22:56.060 because when he talks about Christ ruling and reigning,

00:22:59.420 it's a real deal, tangible, physical, earthly reign.

00:23:04.000 So I would say that the post-mill and pre-mill agree on the nature of the reign of Christ

00:23:09.040 and the post-mill and the all-mill agree on the timing,

00:23:11.880 which means, I like saying this to listeners because they think post-mill is this extreme view,

00:23:16.040 it means that post-mill is actually the middle view.

00:23:18.140 It's the moderate view.

00:23:20.220 You have pre-mill on one side, you have all-mill on the other side,

00:23:24.140 and they disagree about everything.

00:23:25.700 All-mill disagrees with pre-mill on timing and nature, but we over here, we share one piece with all-mill, one piece with pre-mill, which means if you want to be just America's evangelical sweetheart, moderate position, post-mill is the position for you.

00:23:40.500 Well, I want to talk about this difference between optimistic and pessimistic eschatology.

00:23:46.560 Because essentially, yes, you see in the premillennial or the dispensational premillennial position a pessimistic eschatology.

00:23:56.340 It means that you believe that the world will progressively get worse until Christ returns and rescues his church from the failure of the world.

00:24:05.980 and the post-millennial would have an optimistic view,

00:24:09.520 meaning that we believe that the Great Commission

00:24:12.000 will be fulfilled,

00:24:13.340 not because we as the church are so great,

00:24:15.960 but because Christ is the one,

00:24:17.980 the head of the church that is doing,

00:24:20.500 he's the one that is actually moving the needle

00:24:22.880 in regards to the establishing of the kingdom

00:24:26.260 and the saving of his people

00:24:27.320 through the proclamation of the gospel

00:24:28.680 by the power of preaching or reading the word.

00:24:32.420 And so we believe, like you said earlier, and Jesus explains that the kingdom of God is like leaven that leavens the whole lump.

00:24:42.760 And that slowly over time, over the centuries, as more and more of the world is converted to Christ, which we are seeing,

00:24:50.980 today we are at approximately 30% of the world is professing Christians.

00:24:58.040 We know that is obviously an inflated number in the sense that are all those individuals regenerate? 0.82

00:25:02.660 No.

00:25:03.480 But there is a continued growth.

00:25:06.520 The church will never get smaller.

00:25:09.340 It never has historically.

00:25:10.720 We have enough evidence historically of 2,000 years at this point to realize that the church is not going.

00:25:16.560 Why would we believe that the church is going to get smaller?

00:25:18.700 Because that would essentially say that Christ is failing to convert sinners.

00:25:24.520 But he never fails to convert sinners.

00:25:26.500 Right. That some particular enemy of Christ in the Christian gospel actually is more powerful than the gospel itself. 0.58

00:25:34.120 Secularism, I think, within this, our current point in church history, I think secularism is one of the most formidable enemies that the church has faced thus far.

00:25:43.720 But I don't believe that secularism is stronger than Christ and his kingdom.

00:25:49.140 yeah, and the potency of the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. And not just for

00:25:54.340 the Jew, but for the Greek and for the whole world. And so I believe that secularism will fall. In

00:25:59.340 fact, I think that secularism in many ways is already falling, that it is a self-defeating

00:26:04.880 ideology. It's a suicidal, you know, it's a parasite. So secularism really only, just like 1.00

00:26:10.300 socialism and all of its different aspects, right? It's not a viable, tenable position. It's parasitic

00:26:15.780 and it's not symbiotic, right? There are certain things that we find in nature where

00:26:19.840 this certain plant can support this other plant and the plant that grows on top of that, you know,

00:26:24.360 original plant actually benefits that plant. It's, you know, it's mutually beneficial.

00:26:28.480 But secularism, it only erodes and like a parasite eats and ultimately destroys its host. 0.76

00:26:35.720 And as chrysidom continues to wane, the host is dying, or at least on the surface appearing to

00:26:43.760 die, as Christendom begins to erode, secularism actually erodes with it. Because secularism

00:26:51.960 only really looks potentially successful when writing off of the prior foundations of a

00:26:59.240 Christian society. And so anyway, so secularism will actually defeat itself. And then we'll

00:27:05.340 immediately see, well, he's got to return to something. We need a standard. We need this.

00:27:08.780 We need that. We need Christ. And people will return to Christ and the gospel will be preached.

00:27:13.260 So that's one other aspect that's worth mentioning with post-millennialism is it's not just believing that, this is one of the common questions. I don't know if you've gotten this, Dale, but one of the common questions I get from my listeners is they say, can you tell me, Joel, how post-millennialism and a general equity theonomic view, those two things, general equity theonomy with post-millennial eschatology, can you tell me how your position, Joel, is different than Bill Johnson's position with Bethel and the seven mountain mandate?

00:27:42.280 Yeah. That's an important thing to discuss right now because a lot of people go, when you say as a post-millennial take dominion and talking about the cultural mandate in Genesis, the first chapters of the Bible, people think that we're confusing with the charismatic movement that's behind Bethel.

00:28:02.240 So explain the difference between those briefly.

00:28:03.780 So, yeah, so there's many differences, but I'll do my best to that briefly point of your question.

00:28:09.140 But C. Peter Wagner is often viewed by many as kind of the father of that seven mountain.

00:28:14.060 And guys, you know, Schaeffer gets, Francis Schaeffer gets a bad rap for that.

00:28:18.040 It's not his doing.

00:28:19.020 He was great, but he's often used a lot of his, because he talked about how there are seven main realms, right?

00:28:24.700 We have three sovereign spheres, the home, the church, and the state.

00:28:26.880 And these are all instituted by God himself.

00:28:28.940 God instituted the family, the church, and the state.

00:28:31.360 But there are other realms of human society outside of those three sovereign spheres.

00:28:36.180 For instance, economy, markets, vocation, media, entertainment, right, education.

00:28:43.300 Education, the family, that sphere is responsible for education, but that is another realm.

00:28:49.580 And so all that being said, the point is, you know, Schaeffer and other guys, you know, really coined this idea of there are seven mountains, seven different, you know, aspects of human society.

00:28:59.020 And we want Christians, we want all seven of them to be Christianized by the Christian gospel.

00:29:03.960 We want Christians to be influential in the Christian faith to win out in each of these realms.

00:29:09.040 Now, if we don't, what's the alternative?

00:29:12.000 I mean, that's really, there is no neutral ground. 0.92

00:29:14.740 Because if it's not Christian art and media, what will it be? 0.96

00:29:17.820 It will be demonic. 0.67

00:29:19.040 You cannot share, right?

00:29:20.460 You cannot eat at the table of demons and the table of Christ.

00:29:24.000 That's why Paul actually says in 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians,

00:29:27.420 when he's talking about food sacrificed to idols,

00:29:30.020 Paul doesn't allow for any neutral ground.

00:29:32.640 So Paul actually says, he admits, he says,

00:29:35.200 well, in a sense, you can eat the food sacrificed to idols

00:29:37.640 because their idols are no gods at all.

00:29:40.920 There's no such thing.

00:29:42.340 They're fake gods.

00:29:43.580 They're not real.

00:29:44.380 It's out of the same piece of wood,

00:29:46.460 you chop off half of it to throw in your fireplace

00:29:48.780 to stay warm during the winter.

00:29:50.100 And the other half, you carved into the image

00:29:52.060 of an ox or an eagle and you bow down and worship. 0.94

00:29:54.580 Like it's silly.

00:29:55.500 You know, Isaiah talks about that

00:29:56.540 and Paul talks about that.

00:29:57.340 He says, because these gods aren't even real, they're objectively fake, a Christian with faith and a clear conscience can eat the food sacrificed to idols.

00:30:06.500 But then there's another sense in which he says, but in participating in the rituals and the practices of these cults, he said, although the God that they serve is not real, there is a God that behind it, a lowercase g God behind it that is real.

00:30:21.540 And it's the demonic God.

00:30:22.960 It's Satan. 0.89

00:30:24.340 And so he says, Christians cannot,

00:30:26.140 what fellowship does light have with darkness?

00:30:28.080 Christians cannot eat at the table of demons

00:30:30.880 and eat at the table of the Lord.

00:30:32.960 These are two contradictory positions.

00:30:35.360 And so all that being said, neutrality is a myth.

00:30:37.640 There's no such thing as moral neutrality.

00:30:39.320 Christ says this himself when he says,

00:30:41.280 a man is either for me or he is against me.

00:30:44.160 And so if we're not for Christ,

00:30:46.880 if we don't have Christian art, we have satanic art.

00:30:50.020 And that's the trend is when you abandon Christian principles,

00:30:52.740 you may it may not look like satanism you might say joel you're being extreme that's hyperbolic

00:30:58.100 language but then what's the story that we just recently saw with the um it's some clothing line

00:31:03.360 that kim kardashian i guess you know sponsors for and they had they had little teddy bears dressed

00:31:08.660 up in s&m leather whips and and so and kids holding it it was this big scandal balenciaga

00:31:15.320 i think that's the name that's right yeah well and and people are like that's crazy uh it's like

00:31:20.500 No, they can't help themselves.

00:31:22.240 They cannot help themselves.

00:31:23.500 You reject Christ and you are eating at the table of demons. 0.94

00:31:26.400 And if we don't have Christian politics, 0.92

00:31:27.860 what we do have is what happened three days ago, 0.73

00:31:30.580 which was a rainbow-colored White House. 0.85

00:31:33.360 And so there is Christian politics. 0.95

00:31:36.660 Yep.

00:31:37.060 And there is...

00:31:38.320 Christian art.

00:31:39.640 But then there's demonic politics. 0.70

00:31:41.440 That's right.

00:31:41.760 And so if we don't Christianize our policies that govern our nation...

00:31:48.760 And I always argue for people that the most loving thing you could do is vote for godly leaders to enact righteous laws.

00:31:58.020 Right. That's loving your neighbor.

00:31:59.360 That's loving your neighbor.

00:32:00.240 And it's loving to make it illegal for them to murder their baby.

00:32:04.540 Right.

00:32:04.960 It's a loving thing to make it illegal that two men can't get married.

00:32:08.980 Yeah. How many neighbors, unborn, pre-born neighbors, pre-born is the term I should use, but how many pre-born neighbors in my state of Texas alone have been loved rather than killed simply because Roe was overturned? And how was Roe overturned? Conservative Supreme Court justices. And how did they get placed? People voted for Donald J. Trump. Go figure. God draws straight lines with crooked stick.

00:32:33.560 You know, like, you know, but and then you think like the last two years, Afghanistan, 13 service members died.

00:32:40.740 Was that loving to our those 13 neighbors that we had?

00:32:43.400 And all everything that's come out of that, all the people that lost their job because of force, mandated vaccines.

00:32:49.020 And you think if if if Trump had won the 2020 election, this isn't even to make a case that Trump's a Christian.

00:32:56.180 Trump would not be an elder in my church, nor would he be an elder in yours.

00:32:59.500 I don't know if he's regenerate. I hope so.

00:33:01.260 And I think it's possible, but, but in many ways, it seems unlikely.

00:33:04.460 Some of his rhetoric around, um, uh, repenting and asking for forgiveness, you know, those,

00:33:09.720 those kind of quintessential lines are like, Oh, I can't believe he said that.

00:33:12.920 So I'm not even making a case that Trump's a Christian.

00:33:14.980 But what I'm saying is, um, that if Trump had won the 2020 election, um, our neighbors,

00:33:19.980 not just in the United States, but because the United States is so influential around

00:33:23.780 the world at large.

00:33:25.260 And you think of, of, of all the stuff with the Nordstrom, uh, Nordstrom pipeline and

00:33:29.840 the energy crisis that europe's about to um to experience as we're going into a cold winter and

00:33:34.880 you think about would russia actually invade with trump in office would that have changed things in

00:33:39.840 ukraine you look around the whole world and you can make an argument that millions of neighbors

00:33:44.240 would have been better loved and when i say loved i mean the way that the bible the book of james

00:33:48.240 talks about love being clothed and warm and well-fed millions of neighbors globally would

00:33:54.080 have been better loved in a biblical definition of tangible physical love for neighbor simply by

00:33:59.440 voting for trump yeah and it's not because and it's not because uh of trump in the sense of that

00:34:05.360 we are you know hey go vote for trump it's that he was the better alternative he was the best vote of

00:34:12.880 two not christian options right exactly yeah so it's not to say trump's the best guy in the world

00:34:18.480 although he he is objectively the best president in my lifetime yes and that's not to and and and

00:34:24.560 that's back to your point it's a low bar yeah looking up looking at policy it's a low bar

00:34:28.880 And so, yeah, we're talking about how do we find,

00:34:32.020 we're not trying to find Christian candidates.

00:34:34.840 Ideally, that would be great to find regenerate candidates

00:34:37.740 that are wonderful.

00:34:39.700 But we're not talking about that in that specific situation.

00:34:42.680 But we're also doing the best with what we have.

00:34:44.120 So all that back to the C. Peter Wagner

00:34:45.760 and the Seven Mountain Mandate

00:34:47.160 and the dominionism that gets a bad rap,

00:34:51.620 and rightfully so, like Bethel and Bill Johnson,

00:34:54.420 those kinds of things.

00:34:55.280 I would just say that the big difference is,

00:34:56.800 One, the theonomic post-millennial, guys like Greg Bonson, guys like you, guys like me, guys like Doug Wilson, we believe that the world's going to get better in real tangible terms.

00:35:07.020 But we believe, and this is the linchpin, we believe that because we actually think that through the preaching of the gospel, there's eventually going to be more people who come to faith in Jesus Christ than those who don't.

00:35:16.800 Yeah, and we believe that, that it's going to happen over the generations.

00:35:20.520 Over thousands of years.

00:35:21.300 The problem is that when you have a pessimistic eschatology, you look out your neighbor and someone stole your Amazon package and you're like, the world's coming to the end.

00:35:28.680 Jesus come back.

00:35:29.960 Right.

00:35:30.260 And so every essential, every bad experience or sinful experience is a confirmation bias for why the world's getting worse.

00:35:38.120 Well, the reality is you have to also look that there's people coming to Christ, you know, in India and the Middle East and in Brazil and Cuba and in great numbers.

00:35:47.180 And there's people that used to beat their kids now love their kids.

00:35:50.180 and there's people that used to be alcoholics

00:35:51.620 that are now set free

00:35:52.320 and there's people that used to look at porn

00:35:53.480 and we don't see those things,

00:35:55.440 but we know that the church is continuing to grow

00:35:57.280 because the power of Christ is behind it.

00:35:59.020 And so that we can say,

00:36:00.060 hey, you know what?

00:36:00.620 The world's going to get better. 0.70

00:36:01.640 We might be in a downturn generation

00:36:03.260 where the West is going to get flattened

00:36:05.480 and judgment of God 1.00

00:36:06.400 so that it raises up another generation

00:36:08.860 that's going to take a stand for the gospel,

00:36:11.740 take a stand for the truth.

00:36:12.840 And we're going to see prosperity of the gospel,

00:36:15.720 not the prosperity gospel,

00:36:16.980 but prosperity in the gospel

00:36:18.080 in the sense that it's continuing to convert

00:36:19.540 and change something maybe that we saw here in the 1700s in America.

00:36:24.760 We might see that again,

00:36:26.300 but it might take 200, 300, 500,000 years from now for that to happen.

00:36:31.120 So those are the changes.

00:36:32.080 One, we believe that things will get better

00:36:33.900 because we actually think it'll be bottom up.

00:36:36.640 It'll be grassroots.

00:36:37.720 It'll be the gospel being preached

00:36:39.080 and just bona fide good old-fashioned religion converting the heart.

00:36:43.400 The gospel actually produce a mass amount of Christians.

00:36:46.740 The charismatic seven mountain mandate, they believe that ultimately the Christians are going to change the world top down by getting Christians in the right positions of influence and power in each of these things, which we do want to see that happen.

00:37:03.660 But they think that that's going to happen first. So you could have 10% of the population that's 0.59

00:37:09.360 Christian, but these influential Christians can get into these levers, behind these levers of power

00:37:15.560 and they believe that these individuals will have more power as saints prop them up and pray for

00:37:24.440 them. So it's this idea of we're going to fast and pray for so-and-so and he's going to be exalted.

00:37:30.900 and as we pray for him, it's like this Christmas cheer

00:37:35.000 that's going to make Santa's sled fly

00:37:38.100 and he's going to win this election

00:37:40.380 and then he's going to be able to put in this policy.

00:37:43.320 All we need is one Christian governor 0.72

00:37:45.800 and that's going to change everything. 1.00

00:37:47.000 Right, and it's going to happen relatively soon.

00:37:49.060 And so what you're saying is absolutely right.

00:37:50.700 We believe the difference is we actually think

00:37:52.580 there's going to just be a ton of people who believe in Jesus

00:37:55.260 and we think it's going to happen over time.

00:37:57.500 Yeah, so yeah, we don't believe in the idea that,

00:38:00.340 oh, we just need one Christian governor and that's going to change our state. No, we believe 0.67

00:38:03.780 that you need to preach the gospel faithfully to thousands upon thousands of people. And as

00:38:08.500 the Lord regenerates those people, those people will essentially Christianize their lives. 0.80

00:38:13.120 And that's how you get the Christian governor. We're a democracy. Now, of course, we are a 0.86

00:38:16.960 representative constitutional republic. Praise God, we're not a raw democracy. But I'm just

00:38:22.000 saying in terms of electing officials, we do that through a democratic vote. So we believe within

00:38:27.080 the post-millennial framework. We do want Christian governors and we want a Christian

00:38:30.380 president. How do we get that? We get that by 50% of the population plus one being born again

00:38:35.780 by the preaching of the gospel. Yes. And that is exactly true because we know

00:38:39.540 that the way you change culture is primarily you have to change minds. And the way you change

00:38:48.740 minds is you have to change hearts. And the way you change hearts is the gospel. And so we're

00:38:52.680 going upstream. Right. And we're going, well, if you change the heart and I don't care if it takes

00:38:57.500 250 years to change, uh, this state that we live in or this town that we live in, we're going to

00:39:03.800 be faithful by proclaiming the gospel, a multi-generational faithfulness. That's going to

00:39:08.740 be a father is handing down faith to sons, sons, handing down faith to grandson, uh, because the

00:39:14.360 gospel is being proclaimed. And we're going to see that multiply across our city and, and change

00:39:20.240 this city over the next generation or two or three or four. And what that does is it causes

00:39:24.160 Christians to care about the same types of people that Jesus did. Because when you're thinking like

00:39:31.820 a politician, or if you're thinking like the seven mountain mandate, or you're thinking about,

00:39:36.740 you know, the way that your sophisticated gospel coalition, you know, kind of person might be

00:39:42.880 thinking, you're thinking about high up people, influential people, important people, you know,

00:39:48.680 but it's different than what Paul said,

00:39:50.140 like not many of you when the gospel came to you were wise or understanding or

00:39:55.260 a prominent position noble.

00:39:56.900 And then you think,

00:39:57.760 all right,

00:39:57.900 how many Christians are there now?

00:39:59.040 30% of the world,

00:40:00.280 8 billion,

00:40:01.300 you know,

00:40:01.620 give or take.

00:40:02.240 So it's like,

00:40:03.020 I mean,

00:40:03.380 that's,

00:40:03.740 that's a lot of the 2.5 billion Christians.

00:40:06.360 And,

00:40:06.460 and what did it start with?

00:40:08.060 Um,

00:40:08.400 it's not just that it started with a small number and now we have a big

00:40:10.800 number,

00:40:11.180 but it's also not just the quantity change,

00:40:13.280 but it's the quality.

00:40:14.200 Jesus started with fishermen.

00:40:15.860 He started not, 0.93

00:40:17.320 not with a bunch of roman centurions and not even with the sanhedrin or the pharisees and philosophers

00:40:22.040 yeah right in the positions of power within judaism uh judaism uh but he actually started

00:40:27.400 with with the grass roots he started with all it's like your hillbilly elegy um kind of thing

00:40:32.920 and that's part of the reason why trump won was because um just your your true blue conservative

00:40:40.200 uh who just salt of the earth blue collar kind of guy you know just doing his best to get by

00:40:44.920 and holds to, you know, traditional marriage and those kinds of things had been made fun of and

00:40:49.720 mocked, publicly mocked on news stations and on every television show and every Hollywood production

00:40:54.660 for decades. And then they all went into the voting booth where they were anonymous and where

00:41:00.820 they wouldn't get punched in the face. And they voted for a giant middle finger to all the elites,

00:41:06.420 namely Donald J. Trump. And Trump, you know, has his problems. But my point is, in that sense,

00:41:13.400 You know, I remember one of the things that he said that was true and good was, he was like, they don't hate me, they hate you, and I'm just standing in the way.

00:41:20.580 And I think that there was something there.

00:41:22.580 That was a unique movement.

00:41:24.140 And I'm not even saying that Trump is the way forward, because I kind of prefer that he wouldn't be.

00:41:29.140 But what I am saying is, but there is something to that.

00:41:32.480 There's an essence of those who are forgotten.

00:41:35.920 That's where the gospel goes into the byways, not just the highways, but the byways.

00:41:40.160 It goes, I think of the parable of, you know, like you go and invite all the invited guests, but they reject it.

00:41:46.500 They don't come to the wedding banquet of the lamb.

00:41:49.160 And then, you know, the master sends them to all the people, you know, to the homeless and to the people who never would have been invited.

00:41:56.980 And I feel like that's what the gospel does.

00:41:58.980 The gospel of Jesus Christ, it goes to the least suspected individuals, but it reaches many.

00:42:05.440 And then the masses at a grassroots level ultimately come and topple empires like Rome is overthrown by peasants.

00:42:15.800 I mean, yeah.

00:42:16.160 The thing is, is that every generation before this, I mean, you know, you don't build thousand year long cathedrals if you think that Jesus is coming back on Thursday.

00:42:26.180 Okay. 0.99

00:42:26.880 You don't build Cambridge and Oxford and Princeton and Harvard and Yale as the Christians did. 0.94

00:42:33.840 If you think Jesus is coming back on Thursday, you have a long view of history and a long view of the future, which is this optimistic that the kingdom will continue to come about through the power of the gospel because of Jesus Christ, who is behind that. 0.95

00:42:49.680 He will not stop converting sinners into saints and that the word of God is powerful, that the law of God is powerful, that the moral standards of righteousness for how we should dictate our lives is powerful.

00:43:01.500 the truth is powerful. And so there's so much there. And so we got to stop talking because

00:43:05.780 we're going along. Um, and I do want to talk about a handful of resources that we can just

00:43:10.720 leave people with to go on. One thing that was helpful on my journey, just at the beginning

00:43:15.780 was R.C. Sproul's, uh, last days, according to Jesus, last days, according to Jesus on YouTube,

00:43:21.060 it's on Amazon. Yeah. It's on Amazon. You can watch the, the, the, the, the videos of it,

00:43:25.900 but he talks about what's called partial preterism, 70 AD, and that's really helpful.

00:43:32.320 Doug Wilson, Dr. James White. Yeah, Doug Wilson, when the man comes around,

00:43:37.240 is his commentary, but a brief commentary and engaging and even humorous at times

00:43:42.140 in typical Wilson fashion. But it's when the man comes around, a commentary on the book of

00:43:47.400 Revelation. Really helpful. Last days, according to Jesus, that's Sproul. That's really helpful.

00:43:52.440 That's Matthew 24.

00:43:54.760 Postmillennialism made easy by Kenneth Gentry.

00:43:57.180 Yeah.

00:43:57.640 He shall have dominion by Kenneth Gentry.

00:43:59.800 Yep.

00:43:59.880 Yep.

00:44:00.120 So Keith Matheson wrote a piece on it, a book on it, who's a Ligonier guy.

00:44:06.680 And so there's lots more.

00:44:09.680 Jeff Durbin is also another gentleman that's in the postmillennial position.

00:44:14.240 And for him, if you like to watch stuff like this rather than read a book, I get that.

00:44:17.980 you know, then Apologia, just go to Apologia and check out.

00:44:21.800 And you've had, Joel has a ministry called Right Response Ministries

00:44:26.420 and has got a YouTube channel with lots of videos and resources

00:44:29.100 and lots of videos interviewing guys like Jeff and guys like Doug

00:44:33.020 and guys like me there as well.

00:44:35.260 So lots of resources for you there.

00:44:37.840 And we don't want to persuade you necessarily

00:44:42.620 to go into the post-mill position in this episode.

00:44:44.700 What we want you to do is to know that there is a valid alternative within orthodoxy that has seemed to be missing for a few generations, but was absolutely prominent in previous generations.

00:44:56.540 And so check out postmillennialism, look into it some more.

00:45:00.940 Don't just adopt a theology because you grew up in a certain way in a certain church.

00:45:05.140 Actually understand the positions and make a decision based off scripture.

00:45:09.020 And postmillennialism takes a bit.

00:45:11.380 It takes a bit of time because you have to have a rich understanding of the Old Testament.

00:45:14.840 You have to have a rich understanding of the New Testament.

00:45:17.160 You have to, it's theologically dense.

00:45:21.720 And so just be patient on your journey.

00:45:23.660 It took me several years.

00:45:24.800 It took you several years.

00:45:26.220 And so just continue that conversation.

00:45:28.440 But thank you guys for joining us.

00:45:31.400 I would recommend you follow Joel on his podcast, his YouTube.

00:45:37.200 You know, he's on Twitter as well.

00:45:38.380 And so as always, if you're a regular listener to the show,

00:45:42.440 could you guys leave a review?

00:45:43.380 You don't need to type anything.

00:45:45.920 You just need to tap the stars.

00:45:47.500 But if you do write something, I will read it.

00:45:49.500 And we are blessed by your listenership.

00:45:52.040 This is Real Christianity.

00:45:53.760 My name is Dale Partridge, Pastor Joel Webin,

00:45:55.540 and we will see you guys next time.

Dale Partridge - January 04, 2023

Reasons Why Postmillennialism Absolutely Matters - Dale Partridge & Joel Webbon

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