00:06:42.440to establish his literal 1,000-year millennial reign on earth,
00:06:47.540seated on a rebuilt temple davidic throne uh ruling from the place of israel so with a
00:06:54.600re-establishment of the sacrificial system right all of these things that uh and in their defense
00:06:59.420you know they would say not because christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient but this sacrificial
00:07:04.320animal sacrificial system being reinstated would serve as a memorial looking back to the atoning
00:07:10.400sufficient sacrifice of jesus and what he's accomplished strange but yes to be strange
00:07:14.400Yeah, strange, but it wouldn't be fair to say that that aspect is full-blown heresy.
00:07:20.160So all that being said, so the historic premillennialism is just the idea that pre, so to make it very simple, premillennialism means that Jesus is going to return before this millennial reign of Christ.
00:07:32.920So the millennium is, well, it's a sci-fi spaceship that was used by Han Solo.
00:16:47.820but it is important that you understand the difference
00:16:50.820between the pre-mill and that historically,
00:16:52.680And I would say the most potent Christianity in the last millennia was really that Puritan era.
00:17:00.020Like it was just, I mean, when you read Puritan work and the Puritan prayers, you just go, I'm not this mature.
00:17:07.560I'm not this aggressive or assertive or invasive or intense about the gospel, but they are.
00:17:14.260And so there's something there that was driving them.
00:17:17.180And the American Puritans particularly, I mean, you have William Perkins and guys who, you know, you have the English side of things, but then you have the ones who came to the new world.
00:17:26.980They especially, it was their post-millennial eschatology that was the driving force that caused them to be able to risk life and limb, to cross oceans, to start this new world.
00:17:38.960But they really believe that the society, that the churches that they would plant, first and foremost, and that the families that they would build, the posterity that they would have, that this would be a city on a hill.
00:17:54.060But they also believe that the society that they would build at large, the cities, the colonies, the nation that would become out of this American experiment would be a city on a hill.
00:18:04.540And not in the same way in a one-to-one ratio with the uniqueness of the nation state of Israel under the old covenant.0.70
00:18:11.780They were using that language because it's good language and it was true and they were right.
00:18:16.320They weren't saying that America would be the replacement for Israel.0.86
00:18:21.000If there's any replacement, which I don't appreciate that term, it comes actually from a pejorative of replacement theology.
00:18:26.920But if there is any replacement for Israel, it would be the church, not America.
00:18:31.000but america has been a city on a hill not in the same light not in the same way um but there has
00:18:37.240been no nation in the last 500 years that has been more benevolent that is lent towards um
00:18:43.000eradicating poverty disease crime uh that is i mean when you think about just even the world
00:18:49.040economy and i'm not talking about a globalism that comes from klaus schwab and the guys you know
00:18:54.440who are maniacally laughing and trying to you know end everyone's life but a good sense of
00:18:59.480globalism still with the distinct sovereign nations but being able to participate in with
00:19:04.280one another in such a way that economies flourish and uh and that cost of living is driven down and
00:19:10.280innovation is on the rise that was accomplished by america not being the the world police but as
00:19:16.680doug wilson has said it being the world coast guard making the seas getting rid of pirating
00:19:21.480and allowing for nations to be able to interact and engage at the level of markets with one another
00:19:27.740America has done all of that and more.
00:19:30.320And in that sense, it has been a light to the world.
00:19:48.200The second thing is that it's a literal thousand years and it's at some point in our future.
00:19:53.060And then the third thing is that premillennials, whether it be historic or dispensational, but especially the dispensational premillennial, is going to see the world is generally getting progressively worse until Christ finally returns.
00:20:06.520The postmillennial is going to believe that Christ's second coming will follow his millennial reign.
00:20:11.500So we believe that we're actually in the millennial reign of Christ right now, and that his physical return that's in our future, not just in the future of the immediate audience that the New Testament writers were addressing, but in our future as well, here in the 2000s, we believe that Christ, his physical return will come at the end in our future, and that will be the end of the millennial reign.
00:20:35.500reign. We also believe that this millennial reign is not a literal thousand years, very likely could
00:20:40.700be 10,000 years, 20,000 years. And it's comprised from 80, 70 to all the way to Jesus' final
00:20:47.100physical return. And we generally see the world as getting progressively better. Not that there
00:20:52.800aren't dips and spikes along the way, just like the stock market there, you know, it's not a
00:20:57.680perfectly, perfectly inclining line. There are dips and spikes along the way, but the trend is
00:21:04.380generally up. And then all-mill, the three things about all-millennialism would be Christ's second
00:21:08.920coming. Again, like post-mill, we'll follow the millennial reign. We're currently in that
00:21:13.700millennium. It's not necessarily a literal thousand years, but it started, the millennium is comprised
00:21:18.980from the time of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, and it will end with his second,
00:21:26.160his final physical return, which is in our future. And they generally see the world as being
00:21:31.680being conformed more to the image of christ but allowing for an up and down struggle between good
00:21:39.040and evil until christ returned the world won't necessarily always be progressing or digressing
00:21:45.200christ will return when he sees fit and he could return at a down point or an up point but overall
00:21:51.360the world is going to be kind of kind of at an equilibrium it's not it's not this trending up so
00:21:59.040So those are the three main aspects of those.
00:22:01.280And I guess the easiest way to say it is that pre-mill and post-mill,
00:22:05.780we agree on the nature of the millennial reign of Christ.
00:22:09.440And then all-mill and post-mill, we agree on the timing.
00:22:13.840So when you think of the millennial reign of Christ,
00:22:16.280this time period where Christ is ruling and reigning in human history,
00:23:25.700All-mill disagrees with pre-mill on timing and nature, but we over here, we share one piece with all-mill, one piece with pre-mill, which means if you want to be just America's evangelical sweetheart, moderate position, post-mill is the position for you.
00:23:40.500Well, I want to talk about this difference between optimistic and pessimistic eschatology.
00:23:46.560Because essentially, yes, you see in the premillennial or the dispensational premillennial position a pessimistic eschatology.
00:23:56.340It means that you believe that the world will progressively get worse until Christ returns and rescues his church from the failure of the world.
00:24:05.980and the post-millennial would have an optimistic view,
00:24:09.520meaning that we believe that the Great Commission
00:25:10.720We have enough evidence historically of 2,000 years at this point to realize that the church is not going.
00:25:16.560Why would we believe that the church is going to get smaller?
00:25:18.700Because that would essentially say that Christ is failing to convert sinners.
00:25:24.520But he never fails to convert sinners.
00:25:26.500Right. That some particular enemy of Christ in the Christian gospel actually is more powerful than the gospel itself.0.58
00:25:34.120Secularism, I think, within this, our current point in church history, I think secularism is one of the most formidable enemies that the church has faced thus far.
00:25:43.720But I don't believe that secularism is stronger than Christ and his kingdom.
00:25:49.140yeah, and the potency of the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. And not just for
00:25:54.340the Jew, but for the Greek and for the whole world. And so I believe that secularism will fall. In
00:25:59.340fact, I think that secularism in many ways is already falling, that it is a self-defeating
00:26:04.880ideology. It's a suicidal, you know, it's a parasite. So secularism really only, just like1.00
00:26:10.300socialism and all of its different aspects, right? It's not a viable, tenable position. It's parasitic
00:26:15.780and it's not symbiotic, right? There are certain things that we find in nature where
00:26:19.840this certain plant can support this other plant and the plant that grows on top of that, you know,
00:26:24.360original plant actually benefits that plant. It's, you know, it's mutually beneficial.
00:26:28.480But secularism, it only erodes and like a parasite eats and ultimately destroys its host.0.76
00:26:35.720And as chrysidom continues to wane, the host is dying, or at least on the surface appearing to
00:26:43.760die, as Christendom begins to erode, secularism actually erodes with it. Because secularism
00:26:51.960only really looks potentially successful when writing off of the prior foundations of a
00:26:59.240Christian society. And so anyway, so secularism will actually defeat itself. And then we'll
00:27:05.340immediately see, well, he's got to return to something. We need a standard. We need this.
00:27:08.780We need that. We need Christ. And people will return to Christ and the gospel will be preached.
00:27:13.260So that's one other aspect that's worth mentioning with post-millennialism is it's not just believing that, this is one of the common questions. I don't know if you've gotten this, Dale, but one of the common questions I get from my listeners is they say, can you tell me, Joel, how post-millennialism and a general equity theonomic view, those two things, general equity theonomy with post-millennial eschatology, can you tell me how your position, Joel, is different than Bill Johnson's position with Bethel and the seven mountain mandate?
00:27:42.280Yeah. That's an important thing to discuss right now because a lot of people go, when you say as a post-millennial take dominion and talking about the cultural mandate in Genesis, the first chapters of the Bible, people think that we're confusing with the charismatic movement that's behind Bethel.
00:28:02.240So explain the difference between those briefly.
00:28:03.780So, yeah, so there's many differences, but I'll do my best to that briefly point of your question.
00:28:09.140But C. Peter Wagner is often viewed by many as kind of the father of that seven mountain.
00:28:14.060And guys, you know, Schaeffer gets, Francis Schaeffer gets a bad rap for that.
00:28:43.300Education, the family, that sphere is responsible for education, but that is another realm.
00:28:49.580And so all that being said, the point is, you know, Schaeffer and other guys, you know, really coined this idea of there are seven mountains, seven different, you know, aspects of human society.
00:28:59.020And we want Christians, we want all seven of them to be Christianized by the Christian gospel.
00:29:03.960We want Christians to be influential in the Christian faith to win out in each of these realms.
00:29:09.040Now, if we don't, what's the alternative?
00:29:12.000I mean, that's really, there is no neutral ground.0.92
00:29:14.740Because if it's not Christian art and media, what will it be?0.96
00:29:57.340He says, because these gods aren't even real, they're objectively fake, a Christian with faith and a clear conscience can eat the food sacrificed to idols.
00:30:06.500But then there's another sense in which he says, but in participating in the rituals and the practices of these cults, he said, although the God that they serve is not real, there is a God that behind it, a lowercase g God behind it that is real.
00:32:04.960It's a loving thing to make it illegal that two men can't get married.
00:32:08.980Yeah. How many neighbors, unborn, pre-born neighbors, pre-born is the term I should use, but how many pre-born neighbors in my state of Texas alone have been loved rather than killed simply because Roe was overturned? And how was Roe overturned? Conservative Supreme Court justices. And how did they get placed? People voted for Donald J. Trump. Go figure. God draws straight lines with crooked stick.
00:32:33.560You know, like, you know, but and then you think like the last two years, Afghanistan, 13 service members died.
00:32:40.740Was that loving to our those 13 neighbors that we had?
00:32:43.400And all everything that's come out of that, all the people that lost their job because of force, mandated vaccines.
00:32:49.020And you think if if if Trump had won the 2020 election, this isn't even to make a case that Trump's a Christian.
00:32:56.180Trump would not be an elder in my church, nor would he be an elder in yours.
00:32:59.500I don't know if he's regenerate. I hope so.
00:33:01.260And I think it's possible, but, but in many ways, it seems unlikely.
00:33:04.460Some of his rhetoric around, um, uh, repenting and asking for forgiveness, you know, those,
00:33:09.720those kind of quintessential lines are like, Oh, I can't believe he said that.
00:33:12.920So I'm not even making a case that Trump's a Christian.
00:33:14.980But what I'm saying is, um, that if Trump had won the 2020 election, um, our neighbors,
00:33:19.980not just in the United States, but because the United States is so influential around
00:34:55.280I would just say that the big difference is,
00:34:56.800One, the theonomic post-millennial, guys like Greg Bonson, guys like you, guys like me, guys like Doug Wilson, we believe that the world's going to get better in real tangible terms.
00:35:07.020But we believe, and this is the linchpin, we believe that because we actually think that through the preaching of the gospel, there's eventually going to be more people who come to faith in Jesus Christ than those who don't.
00:35:16.800Yeah, and we believe that, that it's going to happen over the generations.
00:35:21.300The problem is that when you have a pessimistic eschatology, you look out your neighbor and someone stole your Amazon package and you're like, the world's coming to the end.
00:35:30.260And so every essential, every bad experience or sinful experience is a confirmation bias for why the world's getting worse.
00:35:38.120Well, the reality is you have to also look that there's people coming to Christ, you know, in India and the Middle East and in Brazil and Cuba and in great numbers.
00:35:47.180And there's people that used to beat their kids now love their kids.
00:35:50.180and there's people that used to be alcoholics
00:36:39.080and just bona fide good old-fashioned religion converting the heart.
00:36:43.400The gospel actually produce a mass amount of Christians.
00:36:46.740The charismatic seven mountain mandate, they believe that ultimately the Christians are going to change the world top down by getting Christians in the right positions of influence and power in each of these things, which we do want to see that happen.
00:37:03.660But they think that that's going to happen first. So you could have 10% of the population that's0.59
00:37:09.360Christian, but these influential Christians can get into these levers, behind these levers of power
00:37:15.560and they believe that these individuals will have more power as saints prop them up and pray for
00:37:24.440them. So it's this idea of we're going to fast and pray for so-and-so and he's going to be exalted.
00:37:30.900and as we pray for him, it's like this Christmas cheer
00:40:17.320not with a bunch of roman centurions and not even with the sanhedrin or the pharisees and philosophers
00:40:22.040yeah right in the positions of power within judaism uh judaism uh but he actually started
00:40:27.400with with the grass roots he started with all it's like your hillbilly elegy um kind of thing
00:40:32.920and that's part of the reason why trump won was because um just your your true blue conservative
00:40:40.200uh who just salt of the earth blue collar kind of guy you know just doing his best to get by
00:40:44.920and holds to, you know, traditional marriage and those kinds of things had been made fun of and
00:40:49.720mocked, publicly mocked on news stations and on every television show and every Hollywood production
00:40:54.660for decades. And then they all went into the voting booth where they were anonymous and where
00:41:00.820they wouldn't get punched in the face. And they voted for a giant middle finger to all the elites,
00:41:06.420namely Donald J. Trump. And Trump, you know, has his problems. But my point is, in that sense,
00:41:13.400You know, I remember one of the things that he said that was true and good was, he was like, they don't hate me, they hate you, and I'm just standing in the way.
00:41:20.580And I think that there was something there.
00:41:24.140And I'm not even saying that Trump is the way forward, because I kind of prefer that he wouldn't be.
00:41:29.140But what I am saying is, but there is something to that.
00:41:32.480There's an essence of those who are forgotten.
00:41:35.920That's where the gospel goes into the byways, not just the highways, but the byways.
00:41:40.160It goes, I think of the parable of, you know, like you go and invite all the invited guests, but they reject it.
00:41:46.500They don't come to the wedding banquet of the lamb.
00:41:49.160And then, you know, the master sends them to all the people, you know, to the homeless and to the people who never would have been invited.
00:41:56.980And I feel like that's what the gospel does.
00:41:58.980The gospel of Jesus Christ, it goes to the least suspected individuals, but it reaches many.
00:42:05.440And then the masses at a grassroots level ultimately come and topple empires like Rome is overthrown by peasants.
00:42:16.160The thing is, is that every generation before this, I mean, you know, you don't build thousand year long cathedrals if you think that Jesus is coming back on Thursday.
00:42:26.880You don't build Cambridge and Oxford and Princeton and Harvard and Yale as the Christians did.0.94
00:42:33.840If you think Jesus is coming back on Thursday, you have a long view of history and a long view of the future, which is this optimistic that the kingdom will continue to come about through the power of the gospel because of Jesus Christ, who is behind that.0.95
00:42:49.680He will not stop converting sinners into saints and that the word of God is powerful, that the law of God is powerful, that the moral standards of righteousness for how we should dictate our lives is powerful.
00:43:01.500the truth is powerful. And so there's so much there. And so we got to stop talking because
00:43:05.780we're going along. Um, and I do want to talk about a handful of resources that we can just
00:43:10.720leave people with to go on. One thing that was helpful on my journey, just at the beginning
00:43:15.780was R.C. Sproul's, uh, last days, according to Jesus, last days, according to Jesus on YouTube,
00:43:21.060it's on Amazon. Yeah. It's on Amazon. You can watch the, the, the, the, the videos of it,
00:43:25.900but he talks about what's called partial preterism, 70 AD, and that's really helpful.
00:43:32.320Doug Wilson, Dr. James White. Yeah, Doug Wilson, when the man comes around,
00:43:37.240is his commentary, but a brief commentary and engaging and even humorous at times
00:43:42.140in typical Wilson fashion. But it's when the man comes around, a commentary on the book of
00:43:47.400Revelation. Really helpful. Last days, according to Jesus, that's Sproul. That's really helpful.
00:44:37.840And we don't want to persuade you necessarily
00:44:42.620to go into the post-mill position in this episode.
00:44:44.700What we want you to do is to know that there is a valid alternative within orthodoxy that has seemed to be missing for a few generations, but was absolutely prominent in previous generations.
00:44:56.540And so check out postmillennialism, look into it some more.
00:45:00.940Don't just adopt a theology because you grew up in a certain way in a certain church.
00:45:05.140Actually understand the positions and make a decision based off scripture.