Dan Martell - Getting People To Hate You with Nathan Latka (Creator of The Top Podcast) - Escape Velocity Show #29

00:00:00.000 if you find an excuse in the world of something that's making you unhappy and you chew and you're

00:00:03.640 already unhappy about something you will use that thing as an excuse to validate your unhappiness

00:00:07.920 Nathan Laka what's up dude I'm gonna come across for the handshake it's funny one time I did that

00:00:26.120 and the water went flying everything goes flying yeah I'm surprised Jared lets us that's true

00:00:29.880 escaping a velocity this is true man jared's so trustworthy with his electronics on this table

00:00:35.000 we'll see we'll see uh how far we get um so nathan what's the latest man what are you up to man you

00:00:41.280 know i i podcast is doing well yeah i need to do a better job is it to the top well so i changed

00:00:47.140 dash actually so i called it the top podcast because of seo purposes okay when i launched

00:00:51.580 i looked at what the number one search term was for podcast and it was the top what's the top

00:00:54.980 podcast dude are you serious yeah that's the only reason i named it the top because i couldn't

00:00:58.680 I understand, because it's all sassy stuff, but the top.

00:01:01.740 Yeah, it was just an SEO play.

00:01:03.540 Wow.

00:01:04.080 Yeah, so I just switched it, actually.

00:01:05.520 So we passed 10 million downloads,

00:01:07.200 and I said, I should just make it what it is.

00:01:08.820 10 million downloads.

00:01:09.660 Yeah, yeah, man.

00:01:10.320 That's really cool.

00:01:11.400 Yeah, but it's not easy.

00:01:13.260 Is it four years?

00:01:14.160 Yeah, I was going to say, it took four years.

00:01:15.400 Daily.

00:01:15.900 Consists daily.

00:01:17.220 Daily, 15 to 20 minutes.

00:01:18.640 I mean, it's not easy.

00:01:19.440 I think there's a lot of people thinking about getting

00:01:21.000 in the podcast space, and you do this great

00:01:22.460 with all the videos you put out.

00:01:23.460 Like, you have to kind of commit to doing something.

00:01:26.000 I said 10 years.

00:01:26.920 Yeah, with no views.

00:01:28.260 You'd have to be happy doing it with no views.

00:01:30.220 Well, hopefully one my mom has to watch.

00:01:32.160 Yeah, and Renee.

00:01:32.740 Somebody has to watch, Renee, hopefully.

00:01:34.520 But yeah, I mean, that's the thing that's

00:01:36.480 been impressive is the consistency.

00:01:40.860 So you've got that, the magazine.

00:01:42.540 We were just talking about getting that out,

00:01:44.880 hustling them, which I mean, again,

00:01:47.520 great investors say you have to believe in something

00:01:49.500 everybody else thinks is wrong and be right.

00:01:52.560 How's the magazine been working out?

00:01:53.880 Yeah, dude, I'll share the economics with you.

00:01:55.180 This is crazy to me, because I thought

00:01:56.460 it was just going to be a loss leader.

00:01:57.760 I would like kind of lose money on it,

00:01:59.340 but I compared it to like the book.

00:02:00.660 So the book would retail for $21.99.

00:02:02.720 The magazine I now sell for 29 bucks,

00:02:04.760 plus there's a $79 Excel file upsell,

00:02:07.820 where you get the-

00:02:08.640 On the book online, there's a funnel.

00:02:10.060 On the magazine.

00:02:11.480 On the magazine, it has a funnel.

00:02:12.520 It has a funnel.

00:02:13.360 Got it.

00:02:14.200 Yeah, so we start off at seven bucks

00:02:15.200 and then I couldn't ship them profitably.

00:02:17.040 So I said, let me just try 29 bucks.

00:02:18.720 And we do great.

00:02:19.660 I mean, we sell probably about a thousand of them a month.

00:02:21.300 And then that 29 grand subsidizes another 9,000

00:02:24.640 that we send out free to addresses of CEOs that I have.

00:02:27.560 The upsell is a spreadsheet of the data.

00:02:29.440 Yeah, it's basically what I saw people doing was VCs.

00:02:32.100 I'd go into their office.

00:02:32.820 They'd have my magazine out and said, Nathan, everything.

00:02:34.780 They give it to an assistant.

00:02:35.620 Yeah, they hire VA. 0.99

00:02:37.300 And so there's literally someone there

00:02:38.400 sort of typing the raw data I printed into Excel.

00:02:41.240 I'm like, oh, I'll just upsell that for 79 bucks.

00:02:44.340 And literally it says, save your VA for Excel work.

00:02:48.540 That's a copy on the page.

00:02:49.780 Yeah, brilliant.

00:02:50.240 So we convert about 43% of people that buy the magazine upsell.

00:02:53.820 So the average cart value on that checkout page

00:02:55.560 is about 60 bucks on a magazine.

00:02:57.560 So it's very profitable, way more profitable than the book.

00:03:00.200 That's crazy.

00:03:01.180 And because with the book, you went through a traditional publisher, you really don't,

00:03:04.720 you got to pay almost retail, right?

00:03:06.140 It's like 20% less.

00:03:07.600 Yeah, you can get wholesale.

00:03:09.040 I mean, the way you make money on a book is you want to get a nice big advance right up front.

00:03:15.000 And so we got a healthy advance and that made it worth my while to do everything.

00:03:18.720 But then, you know, you negotiate to get it into kind of airport shops.

00:03:22.780 Then you track the sell through right there.

00:03:24.600 And then I'll call up the airport shops and go, listen,

00:03:27.360 the book's selling great.

00:03:28.860 I'm going to yank them off from the airport shelves

00:03:30.960 unless you give me a discount on magazine placement

00:03:33.400 in the books in the airport.

00:03:35.020 Really?

00:03:35.520 So you start to leverage these assets,

00:03:37.360 this brick and mortar, old school, old media assets.

00:03:40.480 So you've got magazine, podcast.

00:03:42.940 Podcast started, magazine, book.

00:03:45.340 The book is about capitalism.

00:03:47.160 So it's interesting watching, and I

00:03:48.540 know we talk a lot offline about here's what I started,

00:03:52.500 here's where I'm pivoting, here's what I'm doing.

00:03:54.580 Um, walk me through kind of like, cause you know, you're, you're also a controversial dude.

00:03:59.620 Yeah. You don't mind us. We talk about it. No, not at all. You should put all this out there.

00:04:02.260 All right, cool. Yeah. Anything I've told you privately, if you're comfortable sharing it,

00:04:04.980 I'm comfortable hearing it. I appreciate it. Just, just cause like, I always, people are like,

00:04:07.940 what do you think of Nathan? I'm like, here's the deal. You follow him online. I know you have

00:04:11.700 a perception of him. I know him personally, he's a good dude, but if you don't get a chance to sit

00:04:16.180 down with them, sometimes if you just consume the public stuff, especially certain channels,

00:04:20.180 You're not going to get the full picture.

00:04:22.520 But let's just talk about your focus early.

00:04:26.100 How's that morphed?

00:04:27.100 What are you doing today in regards to content production?

00:04:29.860 Because, dude, you even did the Facebook food truck stuff

00:04:34.120 that led to a TV show that you shot but didn't get picked up

00:04:37.700 or didn't get bought or somebody changed jobs.

00:04:41.200 And that's the other thing I tell people.

00:04:43.700 You can't bet against Nathan.

00:04:45.420 Well, I'll just hustle.

00:04:46.580 You're a rising star, bro.

00:04:47.960 I'll hustle anyone.

00:04:48.920 I mean, you know, I'm slightly sweating now because you know,

00:04:51.600 before this, I was out hustling, you know,

00:04:53.100 doing magazine distribution, but like you guys, I was like, dude,

00:04:56.500 there's a volunteer process.

00:04:57.240 I don't know if you can see on my fingertips here,

00:04:59.120 but they're like jaded from all the, yes.

00:05:02.260 I mean, so like, and we were talking about like,

00:05:04.080 I'm probably too cheap in that regard.

00:05:05.300 Like I need to like hire some people.

00:05:06.620 Leverage.

00:05:07.200 But I'm horrible with people, man.

00:05:08.540 I mean, there's a lot of people that want to support you though,

00:05:10.860 man.

00:05:11.360 I know, I know.

00:05:12.160 You just got to give them permit, like ask.

00:05:13.860 Yeah.

00:05:14.360 And then look, to your point about like online versus in person,

00:05:17.900 you know, I kind of feel like I have a secret

00:05:20.460 with anyone who knows me in person

00:05:22.440 because they know like my energy,

00:05:24.720 like they've hugged me.

00:05:26.920 They've like, they know I'm a good dude in person.

00:05:29.260 And so they almost become for anyone who like doesn't,

00:05:32.260 hasn't met me and they'd be like,

00:05:33.900 Dan, I saw you like we're at a conference with Nathan, 0.99

00:05:36.720 but like, man, that guy seems like a, you know, butthole. 0.94

00:05:39.760 If you'll watch him on his podcast, 0.98

00:05:41.320 he's so mean to people and you're like, dude.

00:05:43.500 And then you almost feel like you both have a position

00:05:46.060 and now all that matters is you're talking about me, right?

00:05:49.840 So like, what I've learned is you wanna move people,

00:05:53.020 if everyone has a 50% view of you,

00:05:55.440 you wanna move as many people to 1% 0.87

00:05:57.460 and as many people to 100 as possible.

00:05:59.160 You wanna get them out of the middle.

00:06:00.220 Polarize.

00:06:01.060 Polarize, so you would be,

00:06:02.260 because we know each other, we're friends,

00:06:03.200 I'd say, you know, you're 90, 100%, you know me,

00:06:05.280 you know I'm a good dude,

00:06:06.320 but everyone else who only knows me maybe online,

00:06:08.240 I really want them to hate me so that when they see you.

00:06:10.840 It's so, I mean, I just don't get it.

00:06:13.200 I get it, we've talked for everyone.

00:06:15.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:16.620 But I mean, things like, I don't know

00:06:20.440 the whole political landscape, but I

00:06:21.900 think you did a TV spot or whatever,

00:06:23.520 and you're talking about capitalism.

00:06:25.420 And I know you say things to get people going.

00:06:31.380 I guess just from a personal brand,

00:06:33.600 is it because for those people that

00:06:37.160 are resonating with that message, they're

00:06:40.140 going to love you more?

00:06:42.400 And then I always talk about invisible doors.

00:06:45.220 if you do certain things, and I'm not saying this is you,

00:06:47.680 but there are people out there that behind closed doors,

00:06:50.860 they don't act right or whatever.

00:06:53.320 And these invisible doors close on them,

00:06:55.080 and they don't even realize it.

00:06:57.160 Is that a concern?

00:06:58.280 Because if you're trying to do deals with,

00:07:00.940 like, dude, you're an investor, you're an entrepreneur,

00:07:03.280 you work with VCs, private equity firms, et cetera.

00:07:06.580 Is there a concern that you're going

00:07:08.920 to be led down to say something that all of a sudden is going

00:07:11.020 to cause you some friction there?

00:07:13.600 So I think this comes with confidence.

00:07:15.040 When I launched the podcast, the way I got my first guess is I just said, we will have a million downloads by the end of the summer.

00:07:20.100 But I said it with such confidence.

00:07:21.440 What people heard was, this guy already has a million downloads.

00:07:23.280 I want to go on a show.

00:07:24.480 So then I got 60 pre-recorded and then emailed everyone and said, hey.

00:07:27.440 This is that future living stuff we were talking about.

00:07:28.840 So my point is, though, is like, yeah, yeah, and you teach this, right?

00:07:32.860 You teach this.

00:07:33.360 And we were talking the other day about the right way to do it.

00:07:35.780 WeWork and what's appropriate and what's not.

00:07:37.580 But I think the point there is most people will never make that statement, launching a podcast from nothing, because they're going, wait.

00:07:43.360 I don't want to tell everyone I'm like a million views and then not get a million views.

00:07:46.740 Like, what's that going to say about me, right?

00:07:49.640 I just have the thing is if you put it out there and then you work really hard, like

00:07:53.680 it's going to happen, man.

00:07:55.080 Speak your future.

00:07:55.720 It's going to happen.

00:07:56.540 You got to put it out there.

00:07:57.560 So yes, at some point, maybe someone will say, Nathan, I saw you on CNN or Fox and you

00:08:04.440 said something politically that I don't agree with and they get in a big hufflepuff about

00:08:08.320 it.

00:08:08.960 You know, if someone sees me in that one aspect and makes a snap judgment like that, it's

00:08:12.840 probably not someone I want to have a long-term relationship

00:08:14.840 with anyway, because they did no diligence to try and actually

00:08:17.400 get to know me and maybe why I said I like capitalism

00:08:20.960 or over-socialism or whatever statement I made.

00:08:23.660 So I'm not hugely concerned about it.

00:08:25.280 So what I'm hearing is the confidence side,

00:08:28.360 is you're OK saying things.

00:08:30.400 Is it because you know, give me enough time, I will win,

00:08:33.840 and anybody that I want to do deals with, they have to.

00:08:37.020 Because that's what I see, is you've got the data set.

00:08:39.500 So it's like certain people,

00:08:41.640 even if they feel like they might not align with a comment

00:08:45.920 and they don't know you,

00:08:47.060 will still move forward to at least have a conversation

00:08:49.800 because you also are winning.

00:08:52.100 Is that like?

00:08:53.240 Yeah, I mean, I think it's for me,

00:08:57.140 because it's like if you're the tallest building in the city,

00:09:00.420 like regardless what you think of me.

00:09:02.600 There's a shadow.

00:09:03.440 Yeah, like people are like Gary Vee, blah, blah, blah.

00:09:05.480 He's too this, he's too that, but you can't deny,

00:09:08.560 You can just publicly look at his number,

00:09:10.020 let alone his track record.

00:09:11.140 You have to pay attention.

00:09:12.000 Yeah, so what do you just like, if he's like,

00:09:14.800 if he reaches out to you to co-invest in a deal,

00:09:16.520 you're going to say no because of his too much cussings.

00:09:19.300 Yeah, like no, you're not because he's a guy that

00:09:22.720 gets stuff done, right?

00:09:23.940 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:24.560 Is that the way you think about it?

00:09:25.720 100%.

00:09:26.260 Yeah, so you're going to win.

00:09:27.300 You're going to build.

00:09:27.960 You're going to say these things, and you're going to do it.

00:09:30.800 And you just trust that the right people are going to be cool.

00:09:34.660 Correct.

00:09:35.160 And by the way, this is what people miss.

00:09:37.620 it's actually way cheaper.

00:09:40.220 You know, people spend millions,

00:09:41.280 hundreds, billions of dollars to make people love you,

00:09:43.620 right, advertising.

00:09:44.700 It's way cheaper to make people hate you.

00:09:46.800 Like you make one statement that you really believe in

00:09:49.700 that like maybe you filtered for your whole life

00:09:51.480 and you finally had the confidence to say it,

00:09:52.860 but it's something you really believed in

00:09:54.020 and a lot of people start hating you for it.

00:09:56.040 They're still watching.

00:09:57.000 And if you're selling sponsorships-

00:09:58.420 It's fascinating, man.

00:09:59.440 You know, your cack on haters is cheaper

00:10:02.340 than your cack on lovers. 0.92

00:10:04.460 Man, I'm not there.

00:10:06.000 I don't, like, you know what I mean?

00:10:07.240 It's not your style.

00:10:08.080 I'm good, I'm just saying.

00:10:08.900 It's not your style.

00:10:09.740 I'm not there, but I think one time you were telling me

00:10:11.780 about the Mixergy thing, you wanted Andrew.

00:10:14.720 Dude, he didn't want to do it.

00:10:15.800 Yeah, you're like, dude, write this really aggressive

00:10:18.100 headline against me about why I'm out.

00:10:20.020 What was it?

00:10:20.860 Yeah, he wanted to do something really fluffy and nice.

00:10:22.820 Andrew's a great guy.

00:10:23.740 I mean, my-

00:10:24.560 Such a good dude.

00:10:25.400 He's one of the first people I listened to

00:10:26.240 in the startup world, Mixergy.

00:10:27.080 Yeah, for sure.

00:10:27.920 And I was like, Andrew, I'll come on the show,

00:10:29.260 but it needs to be a bold, aggressive headline.

00:10:31.320 He's like, well, what about this?

00:10:32.260 And it wasn't strong enough.

00:10:33.100 He said, say, is Nathan Latka a bull artist?

00:10:37.600 That's what I wanted the headline to be.

00:10:38.940 And he used it, and it gets so many clicks.

00:10:41.340 If you type Nathan Latka on Google,

00:10:42.340 it's one of the top results.

00:10:43.340 So everyone who really doesn't want to like me

00:10:45.600 clicks that article, because people

00:10:46.800 click on what they agree with.

00:10:47.920 I know it's traffic generating, because all these affiliates,

00:10:50.840 you see them like, is this program a scam?

00:10:54.040 Fake.

00:10:55.740 And then it's this incredible copy of like.

00:10:59.220 Convincing them.

00:10:59.780 Yeah, they get you here, and then they

00:11:01.040 walk you through, and by the end, you're like, whoa.

00:11:02.620 I hate them.

00:11:03.500 Yeah, it's like, oh, this could work.

00:11:05.640 So I get that people click, because that's

00:11:07.360 where they're at, right?

00:11:08.300 It's like chocolate broccoli.

00:11:09.340 Meet them where they're at, give them what they need.

00:11:12.060 I've never heard that.

00:11:12.680 Chocolate broccoli.

00:11:13.340 I use it all the time in marketing.

00:11:14.560 I love that.

00:11:15.100 You know, especially with products, people are like,

00:11:16.980 but it does this.

00:11:17.760 I'm like, yeah, but your customer's not there.

00:11:19.600 This advanced crazy stuff, that's what you know they need,

00:11:22.320 but they're trying to buy this.

00:11:23.520 You've got to meet them here, and then you get permission

00:11:26.060 to give them what they need.

00:11:26.980 That's fascinating.

00:11:28.100 Yeah, but I mean, you understand the human psyche.

00:11:32.600 In regards to the things you're working on,

00:11:35.440 I mean, I actually read your book, which is fascinating.

00:11:38.100 If people have not, I have this whole shelf.

00:11:41.560 Dude, you're busy.

00:11:42.220 I'm shocked you had time to jump in.

00:11:43.780 One thing I do read is I just queue up books.

00:11:46.200 Because I just, dude, I remember when I first started reading,

00:11:49.360 I was just in awe that people wrote these incredible books.

00:11:52.080 And then I remember somebody gave me,

00:11:53.560 I think it was Keith Ferrazzi in Never Eat Alone

00:11:55.840 talks about you should email the authors,

00:11:57.720 because most people don't.

00:11:58.980 So I started emailing authors.

00:12:00.200 And I was so giddy back when I was in my early 20s

00:12:02.600 that they wrote back with thoughtful,

00:12:04.400 you know, because they're writers.

00:12:05.480 I'm like a five-word emailer.

00:12:07.220 They're like 200 words.

00:12:09.660 And then slowly but surely, friends of mine

00:12:12.560 started publishing books.

00:12:13.460 I have a whole shelf at my house that's just friends books.

00:12:16.460 So you're a physical guy, not a Kindle guy.

00:12:18.720 I read on Kindle.

00:12:19.540 I buy the physical.

00:12:20.860 Read on Kindle, buy the physical.

00:12:21.980 I always read the book.

00:12:23.160 I want to read it on Kindle because it travels better.

00:12:25.520 It saves my shoulder carrying around books in a backpack.

00:12:29.280 But I love to buy it for the library.

00:12:31.500 Interesting.

00:12:32.200 I want to see it, I want to remind,

00:12:33.540 because I feel like it's like a signaling when I see it,

00:12:36.040 it reminds me of like, oh yeah, there was this thing.

00:12:38.160 But back to your book, it's very actionable.

00:12:40.560 Yeah.

00:12:41.100 Like, dude, you didn't write this, you know, let's, you know.

00:12:44.920 It's not a theory.

00:12:45.680 No, no, there's none of these books.

00:12:46.860 It's like, whatever, you guys have all read them.

00:12:48.860 It's like this simple concept,

00:12:50.280 and it's just story after story.

00:12:52.360 It's like you literally give them email templates,

00:12:54.560 tax returns, process steps.

00:12:57.760 I mean, you know, a very reminiscence

00:13:00.460 to a four hour work week.

00:13:02.680 How has that feedback from the market,

00:13:04.960 again, I don't understand why'd you write that book

00:13:06.880 versus a SaaS financing book?

00:13:09.200 Or like, how did you decide to do that specific book?

00:13:13.000 So the book deal actually came along

00:13:14.880 because publishers were putting their business authors

00:13:18.420 on my podcast during book tours,

00:13:20.540 and they saw me move volume.

00:13:21.700 And what's the title again?

00:13:22.860 How to be a capitalist without any capital.

00:13:25.340 And what's funny is when I go on liberal TV stations,

00:13:27.900 they'll use author of without any capital.

00:13:31.060 But I go on conservative ones like Fox,

00:13:32.780 and they'll use author of how to be a capitalist.

00:13:35.340 To my mind, it's just be a capitalist.

00:13:38.040 I think it's a blue jacket with your face on it.

00:13:41.300 But it's funny, you give a headline,

00:13:42.680 and people hear what they want to hear.

00:13:44.560 And that's what they feed out.

00:13:46.660 Back to your question, that book deal

00:13:48.060 came along because publishers knew I could sell.

00:13:50.720 They had no idea if I could write.

00:13:52.480 This comes back to your product that you teach.

00:13:54.100 Distribution sometimes is way more important than the product.

00:13:57.380 There's a lot of great products that never see the light of day

00:13:59.400 because of horrible distribution.

00:14:00.960 So the book to me was like a board game.

00:14:03.000 I'd seen Ryan Holiday and Tucker right there in Austin do these.

00:14:06.280 I'm like, let me see if I can do a book.

00:14:08.540 And my biggest fear was I was going to get a big advance,

00:14:11.460 which we got a great advance, but that I was going to sell a lot of copies

00:14:13.720 and it was going to be a bad book.

00:14:15.260 But thankfully-

00:14:16.120 Your biggest fear was you knew you could sell the copies,

00:14:18.240 but is this a good book?

00:14:19.660 Exactly.

00:14:20.140 I wanted to make it actionable.

00:14:21.640 So we actually engineered the book for airport bookshelves.

00:14:24.780 In other words, if you pick it up and you flip to any page,

00:14:27.380 there will either be a bold headline or a screenshot

00:14:30.500 that's designed to suck you in. 0.85

00:14:32.420 And that's why I did the short story format

00:14:35.280 over and over, touching podcast sponsor fees,

00:14:38.320 LOIs I failed on, failed acquisitions.

00:14:40.000 Well, I don't think people realize

00:14:41.700 you actually deliver on the promise.

00:14:44.000 Yeah, I tried, I really tried.

00:14:45.980 No, because you know how it is,

00:14:47.960 it's like people, you can give them 0.86

00:14:49.080 the frigging checklist of templates

00:14:50.300 and it's just like, they won't do it. 0.96

00:14:52.440 You've given them all that, end the process,

00:14:54.900 end the deal with the objections

00:14:56.200 and they just got to do it.

00:14:58.580 Sorry, I keep interrupting.

00:15:00.260 I find it fascinating that people continuously,

00:15:03.840 they want to learn the how, but they're just not the doers.

00:15:06.660 But you wrote this book.

00:15:08.820 How does it fit in the world of Nathan Latka's brand?

00:15:13.900 Or was it just an experiment?

00:15:16.060 Well, it was to see how many.

00:15:18.160 It was really, it was a board.

00:15:19.480 It's like, do you play Settlers of Catan?

00:15:21.160 Or any of you guys play board games?

00:15:22.820 I don't play.

00:15:23.480 No, not at all?

00:15:24.320 Weird, I don't watch team sports.

00:15:25.320 I'm weird, man.

00:15:28.160 That's where I find time to read.

00:15:29.440 I literally just talk about business.

00:15:30.900 So nothing competitive, sports, board games.

00:15:34.660 Nope, don't watch team sports.

00:15:36.040 Gosh, amazing.

00:15:36.760 I know, I just lost like half the listeners.

00:15:38.680 Well, I'm a Redskins fan, so like I wish I didn't follow team.

00:15:41.040 I know, I watch, yeah.

00:15:41.300 I wish I wasn't a Redskins fan.

00:15:43.840 I don't have any, man.

00:15:45.380 I've been to it.

00:15:46.060 I think it was a Redskins in Ohio.

00:15:48.360 I don't even know what the team was.

00:15:49.440 It's my only NFL game.

00:15:50.800 I viewed the book, though, as a board game.

00:15:52.760 Like there's old media.

00:15:54.180 There's these authors that are very academic,

00:15:56.140 ex-PhDs to do.

00:15:57.700 And then there's these people that put out

00:15:58.920 sometimes kind of slimy-ish books

00:16:02.160 that are really just like,

00:16:04.020 click here on my affiliate link to go buy my product.

00:16:06.380 And what I want to do is kind of really mix it up.

00:16:09.000 I really respected how Tim wrote 4-Hour Work Week

00:16:11.480 in terms of he included so many scripts and things.

00:16:13.920 Incredible book, yeah.

00:16:14.780 Really good book.

00:16:15.580 But it hadn't been updated in 10 years.

00:16:18.540 And so I thought there was a real opportunity

00:16:19.780 to jump in and talk about that.

00:16:21.560 And I talk about real experience.

00:16:22.920 it's a handoff. Yeah. So it did well. We just passed 25,000 copies sold at the Wall Street

00:16:27.500 Journal bestseller list. And people, we put it all up actually for free at capitalistbook.com.

00:16:32.420 So we put a lot of it out for free. A lot of it is in like blog posts or you have the book for

00:16:36.180 free? No, like you can actually, there's a little image where you can click through all the pages

00:16:39.680 of the book on capitalistbook.com. Really? The thesis though, is you're not actually,

00:16:43.480 you're not, you're not actually buying the content. You're buying intimacy. Like you buy

00:16:47.860 a Kindle or the book, you just explained why you buy them. Yeah. It's triggers or it's lighter on

00:16:52.280 your shoulders when you travel.

00:16:54.040 The content is out there, but the packaging

00:16:56.180 is what people buy, the delivery.

00:16:58.740 And how does that fit in the grand scheme?

00:17:01.960 But how did that fit into your world outside of it?

00:17:05.160 Are you going to do another book?

00:17:07.600 Was this more top of funnel broad?

00:17:11.060 I know that you had the TV show.

00:17:12.820 And unpack that for some people that aren't aware.

00:17:16.460 Yeah, because that's why people are like,

00:17:18.040 what do you think of Nathan?

00:17:18.780 I'm like, dude, he's going to win.

00:17:20.660 he's one of the best marketers out there,

00:17:22.540 regardless how you believe of the approach,

00:17:25.100 because I still, I get it, but I don't think,

00:17:27.200 it's definitely not for me.

00:17:30.020 If you continue to do this,

00:17:31.900 like you're going to be a household name,

00:17:34.520 how do you think of that in regards

00:17:36.040 to the different projects you're working on?

00:17:38.660 So I can't tell you that I was intentional

00:17:40.780 when I launched the book,

00:17:41.620 that I knew exactly what it was going to do for my brand,

00:17:43.980 but here's what has actually happened.

00:17:46.100 And the book came before the TV show.

00:17:49.000 The book, yeah, so the order was podcast, book deal.

00:17:55.260 Was that YouTube buying taco truck thing?

00:17:58.620 That was before the book deal.

00:18:01.200 Yeah, because I felt like they were watching that.

00:18:02.760 Yes.

00:18:03.640 Yeah, so what that was was I had seen Shark Tank,

00:18:07.280 and I said, this is a massive hit.

00:18:08.700 There should be like a Facebook-y version of this.

00:18:11.380 Let me take my phone and record myself walking down a street in a city,

00:18:15.140 Austin, Texas, with my checkbook and pen,

00:18:17.880 and trying to buy a company on the spot.

00:18:19.600 It's entertaining.

00:18:20.440 So like two, I think 1.2 million people watched live.

00:18:23.340 And I wrote this lady named Ming,

00:18:24.500 a $6,000 check to buy her food truck,

00:18:27.120 to relieve her loans.

00:18:28.120 Royalties are, yeah.

00:18:29.020 Yeah, she paid me back 75 cents per meal 1.00

00:18:31.140 until I was paid back and then 10 cents per meal

00:18:32.760 in perpetuity.

00:18:33.600 So I got like a 25% IRR on that deal.

00:18:37.040 So it worked well, but the trick was there.

00:18:39.200 I was proving again, we were in the middle of negotiations.

00:18:41.260 But it's joking, because like, I mean, you know,

00:18:43.040 like finance, like it's not scalable.

00:18:44.900 It's high risk, yeah.

00:18:46.120 But it's educational.

00:18:47.900 Yes.

00:18:48.440 Most people wouldn't even have known to ask the questions you've asked.

00:18:51.320 Exactly.

00:18:51.780 Like, the point there is not for, like, I'm going to make money on that.

00:18:54.220 I sell sponsorships in the feed to Chase.

00:18:56.080 Yeah.

00:18:56.340 So even if you lost the capital invested, it didn't matter.

00:18:58.900 Oh, yeah.

00:18:59.060 I had sponsors on that episode that were spending way more than six grand.

00:19:01.900 Yeah.

00:19:02.120 Like, my total deal price.

00:19:03.860 Yeah.

00:19:04.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:04.840 Like, I love playing board games that you've already engineered where you can't lose.

00:19:07.940 Yeah.

00:19:08.540 Those are fun board games to play.

00:19:09.960 Right, guys?

00:19:10.540 You can't lose.

00:19:11.520 Can't lose.

00:19:11.700 So, can't lose.

00:19:12.440 But I guess the point there was I shot that in the middle of negotiations with publishers

00:19:17.400 when they were giving me a book deal kind of advances and proposals.

00:19:20.780 So it was another thing for my agent to say, look, Nathan knows how to drive traffic.

00:19:24.520 He just got a million views on this thing.

00:19:25.960 And it was just a selfie shot video in Austin.

00:19:28.440 So it was leverage.

00:19:29.240 So it was part of the funnel to get the book deal.

00:19:31.700 Yeah.

00:19:31.860 Now, people didn't know that watching it.

00:19:33.480 Very strategic.

00:19:34.320 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:34.600 Super strategic.

00:19:35.240 Yeah.

00:19:35.560 Like, I didn't even know about, like, sponsors or anything.

00:19:37.900 I was just like, man, he's just, like, mucking around.

00:19:39.880 Yeah, no, it's a minute 11.13 in that video on my Facebook page.

00:19:42.820 You see me say, Ming, before I make a deal in your food truck, 0.87

00:19:45.180 I want to use my Chase card to try your Pad Thai 1.00

00:19:47.240 because I get 3x meal points on my Chase preferred reserve card.

00:19:51.900 That's the exact line, I swear.

00:19:53.660 11.13.

00:19:54.580 Oh, my gosh.

00:19:55.520 Jared, is this good stuff or what?

00:19:56.820 This is hilarious.

00:19:58.340 I just, I guess, like, so, I mean, if people don't know,

00:20:02.540 I mean, you're also, like, you know, a founder, software guy,

00:20:05.880 scaled, exited, hey-o, like, you know,

00:20:08.160 and then I see you do these things. 0.98

00:20:09.380 And I mean, I'm personally, I'm like, why is he fucking around doing this? 0.96

00:20:12.500 Yeah, it's just so small. 0.93

00:20:13.600 But I guess it's that whole thing of like, it's like the longer you can go by being misunderstood, right?

00:20:19.500 Because that's Bezos.

00:20:20.260 He's like, I'm OK being misunderstood.

00:20:21.820 No, you never want to be understood.

00:20:23.360 Then there's no open loop in the viewer's heads.

00:20:25.080 Well, congratulations, Nathan Latka.

00:20:26.000 Yeah.

00:20:26.540 You always want people thinking about you.

00:20:28.380 You want them wondering.

00:20:29.300 If you resolve all the conflicts they have about understanding you, then they don't think about you.

00:20:32.780 Exactly.

00:20:33.580 You want to be misunderstood.

00:20:35.200 You want everyone to always be guessing and wondering and talking to their friends.

00:20:38.640 What do you think this guy's doing?

00:20:39.600 What the heck does that mean?

00:20:41.220 You want that.

00:20:42.120 Well, congratulations, because you're pulling it off.

00:20:44.640 These are all things I've always wondered when I see these.

00:20:47.100 We don't have enough time when we catch up to cover it all.

00:20:49.620 The book has helped, though.

00:20:50.480 So you know this.

00:20:51.120 I've just closed a fund, or a process, literally,

00:20:53.860 right now, closing a fund.

00:20:55.200 There have been so many people putting money and going,

00:20:58.440 Nathan, I was in the airport the other day.

00:21:00.660 I saw your book on the bookshelf.

00:21:02.040 It reminded me, yeah, I want in the fund.

00:21:03.920 Where do I wire the $200,000, right?

00:21:06.060 Top of mind awareness.

00:21:06.920 Yes.

00:21:07.320 Or like founders will be like, yes,

00:21:09.180 I want you to invest in my company.

00:21:10.640 Or yes, I want to give you 2% advisor shares.

00:21:12.640 Like you have a podcast and a MAGA, your magazine.

00:21:15.180 You have distribution.

00:21:16.240 I saw your magazine at the VC firm

00:21:17.920 that I visited on their desk.

00:21:19.260 Like they're reading your magazine.

00:21:20.300 Like this stuff all kind of builds itself.

00:21:22.100 How much of that was like a strategic versus kind

00:21:26.920 of it kind of connecting the dots looking back.

00:21:29.640 Like how much of it was like, this is what I'm doing

00:21:32.020 for these reasons.

00:21:33.280 Because like, again, going back to like the TV show

00:21:36.060 is essentially you did the Facebook version of this,

00:21:39.000 got the book deal, and then I guess what network?

00:21:43.380 So a little secret on anyone trying to get on TV.

00:21:47.500 TV production companies, their top of funnel

00:21:50.340 is this back end private forum that book publishers publish

00:21:54.900 their new author deals.

00:21:57.660 And so production companies will,

00:21:59.560 the second that the publisher Random House publishes,

00:22:02.580 we just gave Nathan an advance.

00:22:04.560 This is the working title.

00:22:05.920 As soon as you get the, like, deal?

00:22:08.160 As soon as we sign the deal with Random House.

00:22:11.060 Not when it gets published publicly.

00:22:12.060 Not when it gets published.

00:22:13.300 Yeah, yeah.

00:22:13.580 The deal's signed.

00:22:14.220 The deal's signed.

00:22:15.320 Random House will post on this forum, here's the working title.

00:22:18.260 Because they want you to get on TV because.

00:22:20.780 Yeah, they want that exposure.

00:22:22.340 But really, they use this forum to tell other publishers, like, just to stay up to date.

00:22:26.240 Okay.

00:22:26.660 But TV folks will watch the titles, research the personalities behind the book, and then option rights to a TV deal.

00:22:34.420 Why?

00:22:34.680 Because they figure if somebody vetted the person to do a book deal that they're interesting

00:22:38.740 around the story.

00:22:39.320 Especially if the advance was in the multiple six figures.

00:22:41.360 OK.

00:22:41.920 Yeah.

00:22:42.940 So I got appointed on that day.

00:22:45.080 I got like six inbound emails from production companies in New York saying, have you thought

00:22:49.880 about TV?

00:22:51.340 Tell me more about the book.

00:22:52.340 And then I got them all in a bidding war, basically.

00:22:54.360 I put them all at a table in New York, big boardroom, 47th floor, and said, what ideas

00:22:58.740 do you have?

00:22:59.220 Here's the book concept.

00:23:00.260 And then, I mean, in regards to, and you said we can talk about anything we talk about privately.

00:23:05.260 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:06.260 What I find fascinating is like, I don't know.

00:23:08.260 I would be a little nervous shooting a frigging, was it like reality TV?

00:23:12.260 How much of it was scripted? 0.72

00:23:13.260 What was the premise of the show?

00:23:14.260 Oh, this was a battle dance.

00:23:15.260 Like they wanted to script it.

00:23:17.260 Explain to people what the show was.

00:23:19.260 Yeah, so the working title was Latka's Million Dollar Road Trip.

00:23:22.260 Okay.

00:23:23.260 Do you always want your name in everything you do?

00:23:24.260 Yes.

00:23:25.260 Okay.

00:23:26.260 100%. 1.00

00:23:27.260 You should write a book just on all this shit. 1.00

00:23:28.260 You know how hard I had to fight. 1.00

00:23:29.260 I know, but like, I think you have so ninja level deep,

00:23:33.420 like just the top.

00:23:34.220 Some people just say, Nathan, you're just egotistical. 1.00

00:23:36.460 You just shit your name everywhere. 1.00

00:23:38.620 Again, if you don't know, you would assume that. 1.00

00:23:40.700 But I think if you understand the principles.

00:23:43.780 It all raises, everything raises each other.

00:23:45.760 So it's called Latka?

00:23:47.180 Latka's Million Dollar Road Trip.

00:23:48.820 And so I start with a suitcase of a million bucks in New York.

00:23:52.220 I grow across the country.

00:23:53.860 I go into basically each city, and I interview five companies.

00:23:57.240 I walk in randomly to these companies on the street

00:23:59.360 in the downtown.

00:24:00.200 That's what you wanted to do?

00:24:01.720 This is what they wanted to do.

00:24:03.240 They wanted to script.

00:24:04.380 They wanted to basically tell the people

00:24:05.860 I was coming in.

00:24:06.640 Ahead of time?

00:24:07.480 Ahead of time.

00:24:08.320 And this is, they do this because most people,

00:24:10.380 personalities on TV, they couldn't do it off the spot.

00:24:13.580 They would just freeze.

00:24:14.420 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:15.260 They couldn't do it on the spot.

00:24:16.100 When I see, like when I watch, you know, what's it?

00:24:19.680 The Profit.

00:24:20.580 The Profit or like the billionaire out of Texas,

00:24:24.540 the restaurateur.

00:24:25.840 Tellman, is it Tellman?

00:24:28.560 Oh yeah, yeah.

00:24:29.400 Tellman for Tito or something.

00:24:30.720 With the lobster.

00:24:31.940 Yeah, yeah, that guy.

00:24:32.940 So like when they're like,

00:24:33.700 oh, very nice to meet you for the first time.

00:24:35.160 Like, there's no way you guys just met.

00:24:37.660 Like you met and then he went outside and you walked in.

00:24:39.720 So you pick up on that stuff.

00:24:40.880 I do too.

00:24:41.720 And so I told the crew, I said, let me be vulnerable.

00:24:45.000 Like I understand I'm gonna embarrass myself.

00:24:46.760 I'm gonna walk into some of these places cold

00:24:48.180 and they're gonna say, get the hell out. 0.59

00:24:49.860 And we need that on film.

00:24:51.540 That's like authentic.

00:24:52.580 And it made them more nervous than me, right?

00:24:55.560 Because you have to remember, we had a crew of 30 people.

00:24:58.140 I mean, there was a crew of 30. 0.63

00:24:58.980 And they need to get the shot.

00:24:59.700 Not only that, there's two lawyers.

00:25:01.800 There's a crew of 30 people?

00:25:02.800 Yeah, there's two lawyers.

00:25:03.780 Because it makes it look like not produced.

00:25:06.480 They're all behind the scenes.

00:25:07.980 But you have to remember, the crew,

00:25:09.420 as we're going into random people,

00:25:11.000 I'm talking to a random person on the street,

00:25:12.540 after I move past them and they're filming,

00:25:15.280 lawyers have to go in and get release forms

00:25:17.260 from every person I engage with.

00:25:18.000 Every person?

00:25:18.800 Every person, even if they're in the background.

00:25:21.900 So it's a ton of, and then there's the makeup crew.

00:25:24.300 Do they pay these people?

00:25:25.540 For sign off?

00:25:26.660 Who?

00:25:27.160 The lawyers that try to get permission.

00:25:29.280 Like what if somebody's like, no.

00:25:30.740 Oh, no, then we can't use the footage.

00:25:32.040 You just blur it?

00:25:32.700 Yeah.

00:25:32.980 I've seen that.

00:25:33.680 Oh, that's why you sometimes see this person was blurred.

00:25:36.520 These two other people are not.

00:25:37.960 Yeah.

00:25:38.460 They didn't want to sign the release.

00:25:39.340 I got pretty good, though, at finding people on the street

00:25:41.720 that I knew would like being on TV.

00:25:45.340 You can kind of tell.

00:25:46.180 Oh, you can tell.

00:25:47.260 You can really tell, actually.

00:25:48.220 It's pretty easy.

00:25:49.800 So no, I wanted the randomness.

00:25:51.440 So no, we shot in Denver.

00:25:53.060 They spent a million five on the pilot shooting

00:25:55.500 for a week in Denver.

00:25:56.340 How many episodes?

00:25:57.400 We shot two episodes, but here was the issue.

00:25:59.640 You shot a million five on two episodes?

00:26:02.280 Oh, I thought you shot like 10.

00:26:03.540 No, dude, it's a different world from what we operate in.

00:26:05.280 We can shoot a video.

00:26:06.860 Yeah, iPhone.

00:26:07.680 Two, 300 bucks.

00:26:08.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:09.520 I mean, I wanted to have Ming at the food chart. 0.98

00:26:11.300 It was free.

00:26:12.440 And I'm like, why are you guys spending like 750 an episode?

00:26:16.140 This is crazy.

00:26:17.440 But then you see the whole thing.

00:26:19.400 The people.

00:26:19.940 Yeah.

00:26:20.940 That, by the way, that whole business model

00:26:22.320 is going to get disrupted.

00:26:23.820 Yeah, completely, because it's so expensive.

00:26:25.700 And so you shoot these two episodes.

00:26:27.600 You did get the real reactions that you wanted?

00:26:31.500 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:26:31.980 So what we did is a combination.

00:26:33.600 So they basically said, Nathan, we

00:26:34.860 don't think you're going to walk into a random thing

00:26:36.820 and get a deal done.

00:26:38.020 We think we're going to waste a lot of time shooting and following,

00:26:40.240 and you're not going to be able to get it done.

00:26:42.280 And I said, well, it's about speed.

00:26:43.740 I have to be able to get into enough places fast enough.

00:26:46.700 So I would have to get into about maybe six,

00:26:50.220 Maybe two would say get out, or the cameras would intimidate. 0.74

00:26:52.920 Because remember, I'm at a disadvantage

00:26:54.400 when there's a crew with me.

00:26:55.200 A phone's easy.

00:26:56.040 Way easier.

00:26:56.660 But there's 30 people.

00:26:58.020 It's intimidating.

00:26:59.180 So I have to charm the business owner when I walk in.

00:27:02.320 I have to say something like, hey,

00:27:03.900 no, they've got these big $20,000 cameras.

00:27:05.980 They don't bite.

00:27:06.580 You are a charmer.

00:27:08.580 You know exactly how to get people.

00:27:09.980 Some people like charm.

00:27:11.060 But if you have a big ego, they actually

00:27:13.200 will don't like charm.

00:27:13.980 Like the farm one you did with the farmer, that old man?

00:27:16.560 Yeah.

00:27:17.060 That's a borderline, because those old school guys,

00:27:19.600 Well, they love to draw.

00:27:20.780 Yeah, you look slick.

00:27:21.740 Slick, city slicker.

00:27:23.540 Yeah, so you got a Tom Ford suit on the ranch.

00:27:26.200 Yeah, you got to talk yourself down a little bit so you can, yeah.

00:27:29.040 Yes, and I cheated a little bit in that episode,

00:27:31.260 because there's a lot of people, and this is true in startup world,

00:27:33.700 where they don't allow themselves to be taught by people

00:27:38.840 they want to be mentored by because they think they know everything.

00:27:41.200 OK, one sec.

00:27:41.940 They don't allow themselves to talk by people

00:27:43.460 they want to be mentored by?

00:27:44.340 So let's say that I knew that you could do something for me.

00:27:46.920 Dan Martell could do something for Nathan Latka.

00:27:48.980 And I know you're really good at product demos.

00:27:50.900 Well, I think I'm pretty good at product demos,

00:27:52.680 but I'm going to bluff like I'm not.

00:27:54.360 And I might send you an email like, Dan.

00:27:56.220 Yeah, to allow yourself to be mentored.

00:27:57.720 Yes, exactly.

00:27:59.660 And then, if you position that the right way,

00:28:02.740 you will eventually that night go, Nathan

00:28:04.640 asked amazing questions.

00:28:05.480 I see a lot of myself in Nathan.

00:28:07.280 That's my go-to.

00:28:08.280 It's like ask for advice on things,

00:28:09.920 even if you already have the answer.

00:28:11.240 100%.

00:28:12.260 So I felt bad.

00:28:12.720 Because if that's their area of expertise.

00:28:14.220 Oh, so you did that with him.

00:28:15.220 I felt bad in that episode.

00:28:16.380 I didn't feel bad, actually.

00:28:17.080 I had to do it because he was.

00:28:18.220 What did you ask him about?

00:28:18.920 He was an ex-sheriff, and so my mom runs a dude ranch. 1.00

00:28:21.760 So I'm very good at roping.

00:28:24.040 But you would never guess that I'm good at roping.

00:28:26.660 So when we were chatting, and he was sitting on his stool,

00:28:28.880 and there was a rope on the side of the table.

00:28:30.480 But you could also talk to a certain degree of roping,

00:28:34.900 so you'd be like.

00:28:35.640 But I didn't.

00:28:36.260 You didn't?

00:28:36.760 You literally said, yo, what's that crazy thing on the wall?

00:28:38.940 Hey, looks like you have a rope, and there's a cow like, 1.00

00:28:41.480 Rusty, you think you could teach me how to rope?

00:28:43.460 And he's like, well, you know, he's looking at me like.

00:28:48.420 And I'm like, okay, so what do I do with the rope?

00:28:51.100 And I do it, and I fling it. 0.99

00:28:53.380 And he's all like, oh shit, Nathan, you got skills. 0.99

00:28:56.660 And I'm like, Russ, you told me all the right things, man. 0.99

00:28:59.040 How many times does that happen?

00:29:00.800 Nathan, wow.

00:29:01.620 But like, that's an example of,

00:29:03.160 I probably pushed it a little bit for the cameras there,

00:29:05.280 but that is a real, real thing.

00:29:07.660 And on that, when you're doing the show,

00:29:09.740 how much of like, it's kind of like when you do video,

00:29:12.960 you do need to go 20% more energetic.

00:29:15.540 Like people meet me and sometimes they're like, 0.99

00:29:17.920 Sometimes they're like, fuck, 1.00

00:29:18.980 you really are like this in real life. 1.00

00:29:20.300 And other people are like, oh, I expected you

00:29:22.300 to be all over the, like off the walls.

00:29:24.340 Cause like, yeah, but because when you're on video,

00:29:26.780 you do need, so how much of that comes into the show

00:29:30.400 when you were doing that?

00:29:31.220 Like that you were.

00:29:32.240 Well, this is why I didn't want it to be scripted. 0.95

00:29:34.060 What sucks your energy doing reality TV

00:29:36.280 is if you have to play a character that you're not.

00:29:38.640 Cause everything you say, every motion you make.

00:29:41.240 Dude, that makes so much sense, man.

00:29:42.640 Yeah, see if they just let me be naturally me,

00:29:44.380 I can shoot for 20 hours a day.

00:29:45.920 That's why when people are like,

00:29:46.860 How are you not drained when you bash all this?

00:29:49.020 Because it's natural for you.

00:29:50.460 It's like, I don't have to think about it.

00:29:52.080 It's like saying you got to think to talk to somebody.

00:29:54.360 Yeah.

00:29:54.860 But if you had a producer saying, be tougher,

00:29:59.380 set up straighter, you're too weak on these, whatever.

00:30:03.960 Oh, interesting.

00:30:04.980 So it's actually when you're too far away from just who you are

00:30:08.120 and that's the mental strain, that's

00:30:11.100 where you get fatigued or tired.

00:30:12.600 And by the way, this is true, this

00:30:14.020 is a macro example of our whole world right now.

00:30:16.020 on Instagram. Everyone is trying to be something that they're not. And it's tiring. It's tiring.

00:30:20.540 They're less productive. They get more health issues. They sleep less. Like people, you got

00:30:25.840 it. The problem with there's, you have to be comfortable with who you are. Yeah. Be you.

00:30:29.600 Totally. Unapologetic. That's interesting. So you do the show, you put time into it. And then

00:30:35.260 the guy at, who was it? CNBC, NBC? So what we did is we, the production company that we signed the

00:30:40.040 deal with was called Cineflex. So we worked with them for many, many, many months kind of shooting

00:30:44.000 this, they got a bidding war going between a couple

00:30:46.580 production companies.

00:30:47.400 CNBC is ultimately who ended up buying the pilot.

00:30:50.240 And they're known for financial type stuff.

00:30:52.440 CNBC, yeah.

00:30:53.660 And by the way, I didn't really want to do a show.

00:30:57.200 There was one point where Bravo was really interested.

00:30:59.300 Yeah.

00:30:59.800 And I wouldn't have done it.

00:31:00.620 Yeah.

00:31:01.120 Now does Andy, so I watch, that's my dirty secret.

00:31:03.980 I watch The Housewives.

00:31:05.440 How much do you think?

00:31:06.020 Don't judge me, or I don't care, I guess.

00:31:07.280 How much do you think Andy Cohen makes?

00:31:08.520 But I don't even, my question to you

00:31:09.880 is, is he really the owner of Bravo, or what does he do?

00:31:13.040 No, he started off behind the camera

00:31:14.580 and conceptualized kind of the reunion shows

00:31:17.460 of Real Housewives, conceptualized a lot of this stuff 1.00

00:31:19.340 and said, you know what?

00:31:20.100 I can't find on-air talent to create the drama

00:31:22.820 that I need live.

00:31:23.700 I'm going to get in front of the camera.

00:31:25.120 This was many years ago.

00:31:26.180 Okay, but he's not the owner of Bravo.

00:31:28.320 Oh, no, no, no.

00:31:29.040 But he's the, I mean, he's-

00:31:30.180 Okay, but he's like everybody on when he does the shows

00:31:33.600 and he's interviewing, it all seems like Andy this.

00:31:36.600 And like, I called Andy when I was having this issue.

00:31:38.880 Yeah.

00:31:39.640 Like-

00:31:39.920 No, the person you see on camera never owns this.

00:31:42.220 It's like, look-

00:31:42.540 Well, that's why I was like, dude, is he the owner of Bravo?

00:31:46.420 Because he's in all the shows, and they talk about, like, he's the guy.

00:31:48.840 No, but he is probably their highest paid talent.

00:31:50.920 Okay, so he's just like Regis and Kathie Lee.

00:31:53.780 Totally.

00:31:54.300 Okay.

00:31:54.880 Yeah, or any of your favorite news anchors.

00:31:56.300 Most people do not know.

00:31:58.080 I don't even know what a modern example is.

00:32:00.220 Regis and Kelly.

00:32:00.920 I was born in 89, Dan.

00:32:02.180 I'm like Kathie Lee, man.

00:32:03.380 This isn't even Kelly.

00:32:04.980 Oh, okay.

00:32:05.540 This is before.

00:32:06.360 Exactly.

00:32:06.700 You don't even know Kelly. 1.00

00:32:07.240 Holy shit. 1.00

00:32:08.320 But, yeah, so the show went with CNBC. 0.99

00:32:12.540 I was signed with CEA because my speaking business

00:32:15.300 took off during this whole process.

00:32:16.960 I went from 10 grand, I think, to 50 grand

00:32:18.820 and interviewing Ashton Kutcher in Vegas,

00:32:20.700 and CEA was doing all that stuff.

00:32:22.980 So they negotiated a deal with CNBC.

00:32:24.800 I got executive producer credits, which was great,

00:32:26.880 plus an episodic fee.

00:32:27.720 Why does that matter to get EP credits on?

00:32:29.480 Because it will then, every time you're on the network,

00:32:32.260 right at the beginning of the show,

00:32:33.100 it will say produced by Latka, CNBC.

00:32:36.240 Oh, that's why you see Mark Wahlberg.

00:32:37.980 Yeah, they negotiate for that, EP credits.

00:32:40.100 They want that because then if somebody else is thinking

00:32:41.780 doing a show, and they're like, oh, he

00:32:43.280 was involved in the show.

00:32:44.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want credit for that kind of stuff.

00:32:46.580 And that means it tells them that you were creative input

00:32:49.540 to the show.

00:32:50.880 And remember, the core of what the show was,

00:32:53.180 I came up with myself on Facebook Live.

00:32:55.540 Yeah, when you did the Facebook Live.

00:32:56.340 So I really own most of the idea and the rights.

00:32:59.920 And so anyways, we did it with CNBC.

00:33:02.660 Jim Ackerman, who was the president of CNBC at the time,

00:33:04.800 was the internal buyer, buy-in.

00:33:06.720 He was unfortunately released or walked away recently.

00:33:11.300 So my deal essentially went with that just like product sales.

00:33:13.960 Yeah, you got to need two or three internal buy-ins.

00:33:16.840 So it wasn't a horrible situation because this was the big draining thing

00:33:20.440 that you might not appreciate or people might not appreciate

00:33:23.420 for one episode, one 47 minute episode, which is an hour long thing

00:33:27.140 because of commercials, it took five days shooting,

00:33:29.960 essentially 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.

00:33:31.180 to produce 40 minutes to produce content.

00:33:33.360 Really?

00:33:33.820 That's how you and I batch podcasts and escape velocity.

00:33:36.600 Wow.

00:33:37.300 It's not efficient.

00:33:38.760 It's not it's not efficient,

00:33:40.300 but it's probably more efficient than it used to be,

00:33:42.520 because especially with the reality show

00:33:45.120 versus a stage show and da-da-da-da-da.

00:33:47.860 Yeah.

00:33:49.800 Let's talk about disrupting startup finance.

00:33:52.600 Let's do it.

00:33:53.060 Yeah, because this is the thing that I love about you, Nathan,

00:33:56.120 is that when you find a thing, you go deep.

00:34:00.420 I mean, we were hanging out poolside at an event,

00:34:02.620 and all of a sudden, you pulled out

00:34:04.300 a bunch of term sheets and spreadsheets,

00:34:07.000 And you're like, yeah, here's what I'm doing.

00:34:09.200 Highlighted, dog-eared.

00:34:11.160 I'm like, wow.

00:34:12.060 Like, there's people, you know?

00:34:14.360 So talk about what's changing.

00:34:17.440 Because this feels like an entertainment podcast

00:34:19.520 or a thought leadership podcast.

00:34:20.760 But like, in regards to SaaS funding,

00:34:24.640 there's definitely been this migration in the landscape

00:34:27.340 with revenue-based financing.

00:34:28.920 And like, there's always been Silicon Valley Bank.

00:34:30.640 But you're not venture backed.

00:34:32.200 You're really not talking to them.

00:34:33.340 They, you know, they're de-re-re.

00:34:34.720 Like, it's not really risky capital

00:34:36.360 because they know the players and who's

00:34:37.860 going to fund the next rounds.

00:34:39.240 But with SAS, there's such an incredible, predictable model

00:34:42.360 behind it.

00:34:44.280 There's some new players, some new options.

00:34:46.580 How do you see those and the true thoughts of it?

00:34:50.760 And you can name them if you want.

00:34:52.380 And then what's your perspective to what

00:34:54.480 you want to bring to the market?

00:34:55.480 So ultimately, what I'm trying to do

00:34:56.460 is help founders get cheaper capital.

00:34:58.300 And so there are essentially six forms,

00:35:00.520 like literally six financial vehicles

00:35:02.220 founders can get money on.

00:35:03.840 The most expensive is equity, right?

00:35:06.660 Then under that, I would say you have.

00:35:08.640 And equity means they're giving you

00:35:10.500 money for a percent of shares in your company.

00:35:14.460 Yes, and this is typically in the form of a convertible note

00:35:16.780 or YC safe or things like that, or priced around directly,

00:35:19.860 meaning they put an equity value immediately.

00:35:22.600 It's not debt.

00:35:23.520 Right under equity, I would say you

00:35:25.500 have these new form of kind of seals, shared earnings income

00:35:29.460 agreements.

00:35:30.720 And what this means is, OK.

00:35:33.300 What's interesting is all this stuff

00:35:34.420 has existed in other industries.

00:35:37.020 We're just now coming into SAS.

00:35:39.040 That's why when people go, Nathan, how do you

00:35:40.500 go into this?

00:35:41.100 This is not new stuff.

00:35:42.300 No.

00:35:42.800 I mean, there's a reason why it's called a SEAL

00:35:45.360 because this is what they call it in other industries.

00:35:48.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:35:48.500 I mean, SAS is just new.

00:35:50.540 So it hasn't brought all the old models in.

00:35:52.480 But all the shared earnings income agreement is,

00:35:54.420 is essentially, Dan, I'll write you $100,000 check

00:35:56.940 into your company right now for 10% of the business.

00:35:59.940 You have the right over the next 10 years

00:36:01.800 to buy back my $100,000 for 300 grand.

00:36:04.460 So I get a three extra of my money.

00:36:05.680 So this is NDVC, Tiny C, Ernest Capital.

00:36:09.300 Some mixture of this.

00:36:10.600 Yeah, some of them have different things.

00:36:12.100 They have value add, they have different terms,

00:36:14.300 but it looks like that.

00:36:15.640 Some force you to repay.

00:36:17.500 Yeah, you have the ability to buy back the equity, essentially.

00:36:19.800 Well, sometimes, I forget who it is,

00:36:21.520 and I don't want to get this wrong,

00:36:22.360 so I'm just going to say, look it up.

00:36:23.580 One of them forces you to repay back 3x.

00:36:25.920 Within five years.

00:36:27.400 Yeah, OK.

00:36:28.300 So it can be, again, founders don't

00:36:31.040 how to evaluate these because each dimension has a different impact to total cost of capital.

00:36:36.160 Correct. Yeah. You know, equity don't have to pay back. Yeah. But it's more expensive. Debt,

00:36:40.240 you have to pay back. But they don't even know how to run the numbers. It's hard. Yeah. Cause

00:36:43.360 they're like really difficult. Yeah. You're assuming you're gonna be successful. What degree

00:36:47.280 it's, but it's, it's, it's all forms. Are we ranking these as the most expensive, second most

00:36:51.760 expensive? Equity is the most expensive. Okay. Let's just say if you're successful, let's,

00:36:54.640 let's assume this, let's assume you're watching right now, you're a million dollar AR company.

00:36:58.640 And in five years, you sell for $10 million.

00:37:02.120 So I'm talking like a two-hitter, not a crazy thing,

00:37:06.800 not a bankrupt thing.

00:37:08.300 Million now, you sell for $10 million.

00:37:10.640 Equity is going to be your most expensive.

00:37:12.200 You raised $1 million.

00:37:13.100 Well, let's say you raised, I don't know, a million bucks

00:37:14.960 and you sold 10% of the company.

00:37:16.260 You sell for $10 million, that's worth, obviously, $1 million.

00:37:19.320 So obviously, that math wouldn't work.

00:37:20.540 But you get the point.

00:37:21.240 Equity is most expensive.

00:37:22.140 Under that, you have a seal.

00:37:23.120 Under that, you have what's called an RBF, revenue-based

00:37:25.020 financing.

00:37:25.760 And all that means is, hey, Dan, I'll

00:37:27.800 I'll give you up to 6x your current MRR right now.

00:37:30.200 So if you're doing a million.

00:37:31.040 So let's just go back to SEAL real quick,

00:37:32.240 because the equity is pure money in.

00:37:34.460 I own a percentage.

00:37:35.720 When you sell, I get a proportionate to that percentage.

00:37:39.620 SEAL is money in.

00:37:42.140 If you decide not to sell, you still got to pay it back.

00:37:46.400 There's four different forms.

00:37:47.360 You can choose to pay it back.

00:37:48.800 You can choose to leave it as equity.

00:37:50.280 And one of them forces you to start paying it back.

00:37:52.280 There's a repayment start date.

00:37:53.360 So their unique thing is maybe the valuation is better,

00:37:57.300 The equity they're asking for is smaller.

00:37:59.660 Well, I would say their value is actually optionality.

00:38:02.980 You can choose, as a founder, do you

00:38:04.620 want to treat it like debt or do you

00:38:05.920 want to treat it like equity, depending on how your business

00:38:07.860 does.

00:38:08.360 OK, so if you decide instead of just doing a $10 million base

00:38:10.420 hit, you want to go for $100 million,

00:38:11.940 you can buy them out because you know that's

00:38:13.740 going to be worth more.

00:38:14.700 You got it.

00:38:15.160 Look at Wistia, how they raise money to buy out the debt.

00:38:18.740 Now, that debt was not on a seal.

00:38:20.140 But the idea of that concept, giving the founders

00:38:22.500 that option on day one when the money's put in,

00:38:24.440 that's essentially what's happening.

00:38:25.980 OK, we'll come back to those, because this is, OK, cool.

00:38:30.120 Equity debt, seal, RBF, revenue-based financing.

00:38:33.480 Yeah, which is fascinating.

00:38:34.980 There's enough data in the market.

00:38:36.160 We can create some kind of trend line predictability.

00:38:38.520 Of course, yep.

00:38:39.500 And based on that, we're willing to lend you 5X MRR, 6X MRR,

00:38:44.160 monthly reoccurring revenue, so that you essentially

00:38:46.540 can defer, maybe if you're, instead of doing an equity

00:38:50.740 round, you can defer it, get some more scale.

00:38:53.600 It's, yeah.

00:38:55.220 It's great, because it doesn't hit your,

00:38:56.640 it doesn't dilute you at all, right?

00:38:58.320 So let's, same example, million dollar company today,

00:39:01.780 let's say you grace $500,000 on a RBF,

00:39:06.060 you will then pay that back typically between 1.3

00:39:08.800 and 1.6x repayment cap, somewhere between,

00:39:12.320 call it 900 grand and a million two on the 500,

00:39:17.280 and you will pay that back over a three to six year period.

00:39:20.080 Okay.

00:39:21.080 And so that's-

00:39:21.920 So the IRR, like what's that cost?

00:39:23.840 Yeah, well, so that's just the pure repayment cap.

00:39:27.600 But there's other things like an advance fee.

00:39:29.300 So when they advance the $500,000,

00:39:30.680 sometimes they'll charge 1.5% of the $500,000.

00:39:33.080 So there's fees.

00:39:33.780 There's fees.

00:39:34.700 And then you're paying it back on a percent of gross revenue

00:39:38.080 each month, between 4% and 9% of your monthly gross revenue.

00:39:41.340 Yeah.

00:39:41.840 Do you have this online somewhere?

00:39:43.180 Yeah, it's all, it's just look up like, no,

00:39:46.100 you can just Google venture debt cost of capital.

00:39:48.860 OK, perfect, and they'll give you like a comparison.

00:39:50.720 Yeah, you'll see my article, but you'll

00:39:52.100 see a lot of other people commenting.

00:39:53.180 Your debt cost capital.

00:39:54.020 Yeah.

00:39:54.340 So anyways, to build out the full thing,

00:39:56.540 again, you've got equity is the most expensive.

00:39:58.200 You've got SEALs the second most.

00:39:59.480 You've got RBF, which is kind of the third, sorry,

00:40:02.180 the third cheapest.

00:40:03.520 Under that, you've got mezzanine debt.

00:40:04.980 And all mezzanine debt is, it's a combination of debt

00:40:08.600 plus 0.5% to 1% of the company, which

00:40:13.240 is where they're usually warrants.

00:40:15.580 And then the least expensive.

00:40:17.560 But you've got to be at some level of scale.

00:40:19.060 You have to be more than $5 million, $10 million

00:40:20.940 AR to get that stuff.

00:40:21.940 Like, we want a track record.

00:40:23.140 Yeah.

00:40:23.640 Yeah.

00:40:24.140 So you can't get a loan from the bank,

00:40:26.380 or it's a special bank that likes to do mezzanine.

00:40:28.040 It's like SAS capital kind of place in the space.

00:40:29.440 And it's only because they create,

00:40:30.880 people need to understand, in the finance world,

00:40:33.220 they're able to do this because they have a portfolio approach.

00:40:35.740 They do a lot of these.

00:40:37.420 So people get pissed.

00:40:38.660 They're like, why won't my bank do this?

00:40:39.940 It's like your bank may not specialize

00:40:41.700 in this financial instrument.

00:40:44.500 Well, banks don't know how to value MRR as an asset.

00:40:46.940 That's a whole nother, yeah.

00:40:48.180 Yeah, banks can't.

00:40:48.940 That's why this is taking off, is banks can't touch SAS

00:40:51.180 companies.

00:40:51.680 There's no physical collateral.

00:40:52.680 One of my good buddies just raised,

00:40:54.640 I think he did a debt round from a bank in Canada.

00:40:59.460 They beat out SVB because they were saying.

00:41:01.680 CIBC?

00:41:02.500 It was Bank of Montreal.

00:41:03.720 Oh, yeah, you told me about this.

00:41:04.680 Yeah.

00:41:05.380 So that's cool that they're saying, hey,

00:41:07.180 we don't want to lose the business.

00:41:08.400 This is great for entrepreneurs, right?

00:41:10.340 Because this whole space, debt lending

00:41:12.420 is going to be raised to the bottom.

00:41:13.800 Whoever builds the largest loan book,

00:41:16.320 loaning to software companies, will bring down the cost.

00:41:19.200 And if they're a good person and they care about founders,

00:41:21.040 they will pass the savings off to founders.

00:41:23.180 So you know right now, I'm about to deal with an intro

00:41:25.540 that you made for me, and that particular CEO,

00:41:27.980 I told him, I'll loan you the money at a cheap rate,

00:41:31.360 and I said, every CEO you bring me that I loan more money to,

00:41:34.440 I'll knock a percent interest off both of your payments.

00:41:38.480 Oh, you're doing the Dropbox model.

00:41:39.960 Yes, in lending.

00:41:41.560 Wow, do you think that's sustainable,

00:41:43.180 or is that just now to see it?

00:41:44.100 No, it's hugely sustainable.

00:41:45.740 Because the only reason I can do this

00:41:47.740 is because I've got about 3,000 SaaS companies

00:41:49.800 that have connected their bank to my back end.

00:41:52.080 So I can do real regression analysis

00:41:54.060 and basically have a credit score to SaaS companies

00:41:56.040 to predict their default risk.

00:41:57.540 So I can bring down the cost to capital

00:41:59.300 because the confidence I have in the ARR stream,

00:42:01.400 net revenue retention of greater than 130%.

00:42:03.880 CAC is low, right?

00:42:05.560 Team is really strong.

00:42:06.720 They're older than five years old.

00:42:08.460 Even if they're bootstrapped, I can still do these deals.

00:42:10.260 OK.

00:42:11.580 So you said there were six?

00:42:13.800 Yeah, so you've got MEZ debt and then senior.

00:42:15.720 Senior debt.

00:42:16.340 And what is that?

00:42:16.960 Senior debt is SVB, right, or square one.

00:42:19.800 They will, they will give you, if you've raised 10 million from VC, they'll come in and give

00:42:23.540 you a $2 million line, $3 million line on top of that.

00:42:26.180 Our friend David at Grasshopper, right?

00:42:27.720 Did that before the exit to juice some stuff, but you can get that, but you can only get

00:42:31.440 that if you've already got on the VC track.

00:42:33.760 Yeah.

00:42:34.060 See, I think there's an opportunity to give like million dollars SAS or $2 million bootstrap

00:42:37.820 SAS CEOs funding.

00:42:39.420 So they never have to go the VC route.

00:42:40.680 They keep their whole company.

00:42:41.860 Yeah.

00:42:42.300 Now the seal, I just want to come back to that.

00:42:44.300 It sounds like if you're a founder, do you think seal makes sense?

00:42:48.760 it almost sounds like this is maybe what you do

00:42:51.500 when you don't know what you want to do.

00:42:52.660 Exactly.

00:42:53.240 That's why there's only, so to give you

00:42:54.800 a sense of which of these vehicles are most popular,

00:42:57.460 there's only been about 20 million total deployed

00:43:00.040 on all time on SEALs into SAS.

00:43:02.280 Wow.

00:43:02.780 Versus, it's got to be billions.

00:43:04.840 Billions.

00:43:05.480 Yeah, billions on the equity side.

00:43:07.000 Yeah, mezzanine billions.

00:43:08.120 Yeah, hundreds of millions, if not billions probably on the,

00:43:11.020 so SEAL is the smallest asset class.

00:43:13.120 OK.

00:43:13.560 There's been about 280, 290 million on RBFs

00:43:17.560 across the major players.

00:43:18.640 Lighter Capital, SAS Capital, Espresso.

00:43:20.200 But Espresso started as shred financing.

00:43:21.880 We can talk about that later if you want.

00:43:23.320 But yeah, there's different paths for them

00:43:25.240 to get into the financial thing.

00:43:27.000 And then even within, from a terms point of view,

00:43:29.920 I mean, there's warrants.

00:43:34.540 It's hard to evaluate.

00:43:35.680 But you're saying some people have done the deep digging

00:43:37.720 to say, here's the true cost of capital

00:43:39.120 for each different one?

00:43:39.960 Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've done a ton of digging on this.

00:43:42.040 Well, dude, you had like just printed off,

00:43:45.160 read through it, figured out how this would map out.

00:43:48.220 Yeah, that's because a lot of these folks have actually

00:43:49.800 paid me for deal flow over the past couple of years.

00:43:52.000 So I've actually helped them build their own loan tip.

00:43:54.640 I've helped founders raise from them.

00:43:56.060 I've been in the term sheet negotiation.

00:43:57.820 So I see all the gotchas.

00:43:59.800 And I feel like these guys, honestly, some of the providers,

00:44:02.640 they're just, the cost of capital is 25%, 26% IRR.

00:44:06.140 It's egregious.

00:44:07.240 I mean, you should be lending some of these CEOs.

00:44:08.920 You don't think the default rates justify that?

00:44:13.220 No, I think what happens is you've

00:44:14.540 got a company like Lighter Capital, which

00:44:16.460 has 50 people on their headcount,

00:44:18.080 and they just moved to the new offices in Seattle.

00:44:20.320 That's expenses.

00:44:21.320 How do you think they pay for the expenses?

00:44:22.720 They gotta charge higher interest rates

00:44:24.320 to cover their overhead.

00:44:25.960 I'm a one man show,

00:44:27.560 so I can pass all the savings on to founders.

00:44:30.180 But does that mean, and I know you have the data,

00:44:32.360 does that mean you're doing less due diligence

00:44:34.320 that maybe they are?

00:44:36.160 No, because most of their headcount is not underwriters.

00:44:38.360 They spend most of their time marketing sales.

00:44:41.520 They have people spending up Facebook ads,

00:44:44.520 going to events, sponsoring booths.

00:44:46.460 Like, I've got all that kind of taken care of already

00:44:48.800 because of the brand.

00:44:49.760 Yeah.

00:44:50.260 So no, I'm doing a lot of due diligence.

00:44:51.640 When someone gives me their bank account access and all,

00:44:54.380 I mean, I'm taking all historical data.

00:44:55.880 I'm printing out almost 450 charts.

00:44:58.080 And then I'm-

00:44:58.580 I mean, ClearBank's doing this for e-commerce companies.

00:45:00.020 ClearBank's doing this for e-commerce, yeah.

00:45:01.880 The most sophisticated software back in I've

00:45:04.140 seen for analyzing SaaS companies, and frankly,

00:45:05.860 it's not that sophisticated, is Andreessen.

00:45:09.140 They have a model where you connect,

00:45:10.800 and then they do some analysis.

00:45:11.900 They don't connect it, but they basically

00:45:13.440 have the best note-taking system from their analysts

00:45:16.040 on companies in Salesforce.

00:45:17.920 It's not true real API access data.

00:45:20.220 OK, just good information.

00:45:22.740 Just good information, yeah.

00:45:24.860 Where do you, I mean, where do you see,

00:45:26.300 if you were starting a SaaS company today,

00:45:28.560 what would you focus on?

00:45:30.320 What are the?

00:45:31.980 Dan, I would never start a SaaS company today.

00:45:33.900 No, I know we've talked about this.

00:45:35.280 Yeah, we're buying.

00:45:36.980 You go buy.

00:45:37.680 So we buy.

00:45:38.280 What's the characteristics of a company

00:45:40.840 from your perspective?

00:45:41.940 What would you be looking for in regards

00:45:44.080 to highest ROI, least amount of effort.

00:45:47.500 And not that there's no effort, but just like, you know.

00:45:49.900 I'd fly as far as possible away from San Francisco

00:45:52.580 and New York.

00:45:53.080 Anything that's going to get covered on TechCrunch.

00:45:54.160 Yep, anything on TechCrunch.

00:45:55.540 I'd go to the middle of country somewhere.

00:45:57.280 I'd look at farmers, waste, anything people do every day.

00:46:02.400 They throw away stuff.

00:46:03.640 Maybe, OK.

00:46:04.600 They poop, so look at bathroom related stuff. 0.92

00:46:09.200 But there's all kinds of software.

00:46:10.780 They eat, they lock their doors, there's

00:46:12.940 a software for that, right?

00:46:13.940 They consume alcohol.

00:46:14.560 They consume alcohol.

00:46:15.440 Yeah, look at what people do a lot of.

00:46:17.140 They drive.

00:46:17.860 They drive, and then figure out, is their subscription

00:46:21.260 business already there, where they don't know how to actually

00:46:23.880 run a subscription business.

00:46:24.680 They kind of fell into it.

00:46:25.380 When you say subscription business,

00:46:26.200 you mean a SaaS to the businesses that support that industry.

00:46:29.040 Yeah, I should say.

00:46:29.940 I should.

00:46:30.440 Yeah, because I'm thinking box.

00:46:31.260 I should say monthly recurring.

00:46:32.360 Yeah.

00:46:32.560 Monthly recurring payments.

00:46:34.320 I thought you were doing a subscription box.

00:46:35.620 I was confused.

00:46:36.460 Sorry, monthly recurring, like a waste management company

00:46:38.760 in the middle country.

00:46:39.340 Could you imagine you on a waste management company?

00:46:41.380 Grow the hell out of that.

00:46:42.280 Crush it. 0.95

00:46:42.780 Yeah.

00:46:43.240 Yeah.

00:46:44.960 What would ACVs look like?

00:46:46.700 What would the go to market look like?

00:46:48.120 What do you like?

00:46:48.740 Is it mid-market?

00:46:50.920 I think most your value doing that kind of thing

00:46:53.180 is actually finding an unsexy market and getting the deal

00:46:56.820 done.

00:46:57.320 Because all the other stuff is table stakes.

00:46:58.660 Like, you know what the optimal ACV is

00:47:00.040 if you want a field sales team.

00:47:01.740 Like, you know what you've got to get churned down to

00:47:03.340 to get a 6x valuation multiple when you sell your company

00:47:06.280 to Salesforce.

00:47:07.000 Like, we know everyone knows these things,

00:47:09.140 but executing them is different.

00:47:11.080 And I think you get, it's kind of like when you buy real estate.

00:47:13.080 They say you make your money when you buy.

00:47:15.140 I think same thing in SaaS.

00:47:16.460 Yeah, so you just look for the right opportunity.

00:47:18.340 Yeah.

00:47:18.880 What's the next 16 months look like for you?

00:47:23.140 Obviously, building the loan tape to a billion dollars

00:47:25.300 is the vision.

00:47:27.280 How does the media empire you've built support that?

00:47:32.020 What are you working on?

00:47:33.140 Yeah, I mean, everything.

00:47:34.240 And as a magazine, that was an experiment.

00:47:35.540 Are you going to keep doing it for?

00:47:36.700 Oh yeah, we ship now about $10,000 a month.

00:47:38.540 But you said, I'm going to promise to do it for a year,

00:47:40.720 I'll keep doing it.

00:47:41.300 It's profitable.

00:47:42.040 OK, so you're going to keep doing the magazine.

00:47:43.600 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:47:44.180 We're making money on it.

00:47:45.100 All right, cool.

00:47:45.520 We're making money on a magazine.

00:47:46.640 I know, but it's just like, opportunity costs.

00:47:49.000 Like, do you want to do other stuff?

00:47:50.200 Is it something?

00:47:50.700 Well, no, the magazine basically writes itself.

00:47:52.480 It's just an export of the data.

00:47:54.440 And the text is a transcription of podcast episodes.

00:47:56.980 It's not a ton of work to put together.

00:47:59.020 It's a different form factor.

00:48:00.320 It's the same way you cut these up, right?

00:48:01.900 Like Instagram, Twitter, repurpose, exactly.

00:48:05.380 But no, I mean, literally, all I am focused on is,

00:48:09.220 My thing is I have too much deal flow from SaaS founders.

00:48:13.060 It's literally, most of my meetings

00:48:14.800 I've been with bankers and stuff trying

00:48:16.360 to figure out who's going to write me the $100 million

00:48:18.340 check after I deploy this first $5 million fund

00:48:21.220 that I've raised.

00:48:22.300 So my main thing is figuring out who

00:48:25.600 are the right partners to come in as LPs,

00:48:28.000 how to make sure I deploy the capital in a smart way,

00:48:30.940 and then just scale that up as fast as I possibly can,

00:48:34.300 to $1 billion, $2, $3 billion loan book.

00:48:36.400 Throughput in the center there.

00:48:38.180 Yeah, and think of velocity, speed.

00:48:40.220 I want to build it where a founder can go to a website,

00:48:42.440 click a button, and get a loan from me instantly.

00:48:44.200 And I've done amazing due diligence in 30 seconds or less

00:48:46.820 because of all the analysis I do on the banking data.

00:48:50.240 I mean, where can people find you online?

00:48:51.820 All over the podcast, et cetera.

00:48:53.540 Where would you like them to go right now?

00:48:55.320 What's the thing you want to push the most right now?

00:48:57.700 I mean, I'm going to guess your audience is mostly

00:49:00.060 going to be interested.

00:49:01.180 It's a hundred.

00:49:01.680 Yeah, how do I get capital the cheapest?

00:49:05.540 And so I would really recommend that article I wrote.

00:49:08.620 Just search Latka Venture Debt, because there's

00:49:10.580 a big Excel file I put at the top of it

00:49:12.180 with all the Venture Debt players and their cost of capital.

00:49:15.340 Oh, you've got this already done up.

00:49:16.700 Yeah, you can go down it with links to all their term sheets.

00:49:19.200 I think there's about 50 main players.

00:49:20.960 50?

00:49:21.460 That participate in that stack we talked about.

00:49:23.800 Seal down the senior debt.

00:49:25.020 Dude, I'll link it up in the description.

00:49:26.220 I think that's going to be the most valuable for your folks.

00:49:28.360 Well, it's what I wanted to, so I asked you.

00:49:30.660 So I mean, if you've got that, we'll link it up.

00:49:32.300 Yeah.

00:49:33.040 Nathan, I appreciate it.

00:49:33.820 Man, we're going to do round two.

00:49:34.980 Boom! 0.99

00:49:35.480 You do so much stuff.

00:49:36.580 Thanks, man.

00:49:37.200 We'll catch up.

00:49:38.100 I appreciate you, man.

00:49:38.680 Appreciate you, Dan.

00:49:39.280 Thank you.

00:49:39.920 Thanks for watching this episode of Escape Velocity.

00:49:43.140 Be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment with your biggest insight from our conversation.

00:49:48.620 Be sure to check out the next episode.

Dan Martell - June 04, 2020

Getting People To Hate You with Nathan Latka (Creator of The Top Podcast) - Escape Velocity Show #29

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