Dan Martell - How To Scale a Remote Business with Liam Martin @ Time Doctor - Escape Velocity Show #45

00:00:00.000 This turned into a very interesting podcast quite quickly.

00:00:04.560 It's just how I view them.

00:00:05.600 Is this the way we do it?

00:00:07.100 Ignition sequence start.

00:00:09.040 Three, two, one.

00:00:20.040 Boom, we're here with Liam at Time Doctor.

00:00:21.780 How's it going, Liam?

00:00:22.540 You like that?

00:00:23.280 We get right into it.

00:00:24.500 Yeah, that was a little bit aggressive.

00:00:26.840 I know, you're about to tell me a story.

00:00:28.840 I was like, no, wait.

00:00:30.000 Super personal story.

00:00:30.900 We need to record this.

00:00:31.560 But we can record it.

00:00:32.240 Tell me, what was it?

00:00:33.720 So I met Marielle, who's my partner now.

00:00:37.680 Yeah, we had dinner the other night.

00:00:38.940 That was awesome.

00:00:39.720 Five-ish years.

00:00:40.140 Yeah, she teaches people how to be mermaids. 0.99

00:00:42.620 She does, yeah.

00:00:43.680 Is she the world?

00:00:45.060 OK, she's at the top in the world. 0.95

00:00:47.040 Yeah, there's no bigger influencer than her in mermaiding, 1.00

00:00:51.780 which is like.

00:00:52.680 Mermaiding.

00:00:53.520 Mermaiding.

00:00:54.180 So if you look at that niche, what

00:00:56.460 do you think of the niche of mermaiding is?

00:00:59.220 Well, I would take it's a subset of people that

00:01:02.400 like those My Little Ponies.

00:01:04.560 Yeah, OK.

00:01:05.220 Just kidding.

00:01:06.220 People that like to go swimming, I don't know,

00:01:09.240 maybe total addressable market of 5,000.

00:01:15.000 People?

00:01:15.660 Yeah.

00:01:17.280 Significantly more than that.

00:01:18.440 What do you think of just the mermaid tail sales per year are?

00:01:22.320 Oh, well, see, this is interesting

00:01:23.620 because my friend has three little girls

00:01:25.180 and they all have mermaid tails.

00:01:27.580 OK, I'm going to try a good guess here.

00:01:31.520 I'm going to do some math in my head, and we're going to go 50 million.

00:01:36.800 500 million.

00:01:37.940 Wow, 10x bigger.

00:01:39.180 That's bananas.

00:01:40.160 It is one of those little niches that you don't know is that deep

00:01:43.480 until you actually get into it.

00:01:44.840 And it's been really fun for me to do the reverse.

00:01:49.000 Because you've been helping her with marketing and stuff.

00:01:50.680 Co-founder of a software company.

00:01:53.340 And then what's the polar opposite of that?

00:01:55.800 it's a mermaid company and seeing whether those same fundamentals exist apply apply i had that

00:02:02.320 same experience with my brother with the home building i'm uh you know brick and mortar versus

00:02:06.460 ones and zeros it's so interesting and it actually it's like a dessert business it's kind of like a

00:02:14.240 oh okay let's see if i can do this let's kind of stretch myself a little bit in this direction what

00:02:18.440 do you mean by dessert business so running remote thanks for the coffee man this is awesome no

00:02:22.220 Running remote is what I consider my dessert business.

00:02:26.220 It's not the core.

00:02:27.220 It's the Friday business where I can say,

00:02:29.220 I'm going to work on this on Fridays,

00:02:31.220 and I'm going to commit the rest of my energy,

00:02:33.220 which was a lesson from you, by the way.

00:02:35.220 Don't get distracted.

00:02:36.220 Don't do 10 other things.

00:02:37.220 Yes.

00:02:38.220 Put in, can I afford to give eight hours a week to this?

00:02:42.220 If I can, and I can actually delegate it to the point

00:02:45.220 in which it's doing something, then great.

00:02:48.220 Any more time, if I see it starting to work into the main

00:02:51.220 to work into the main part of the business,

00:02:53.640 then I really need to do an assessment and figure out, OK,

00:02:55.760 is this something that I really want to do in a bigger way?

00:03:00.160 Are there income opportunities there

00:03:01.560 that could be bigger than what our software companies are

00:03:04.360 currently doing?

00:03:05.800 Yes or no?

00:03:06.780 And to be honest with you, going into a conference,

00:03:09.880 it's not a very profitable business model fundamentally.

00:03:12.820 Like if you're doing a good job, you're doing a 20% net.

00:03:17.060 Yeah, that's like in the top 10% of conferences.

00:03:19.500 So if you're breaking even, you're pretty happy with that.

00:03:22.880 If you're making 5%, 10%, you're pretty good.

00:03:24.960 So that's something that I need to be mindful of

00:03:28.980 because I like doing it.

00:03:30.380 OK, it's dessert.

00:03:31.860 You know it's not always the best thing for you,

00:03:33.540 but it tastes some good.

00:03:34.620 Yeah, exactly.

00:03:35.460 And Mirielle sees that as, did you

00:03:39.000 see that as helping her as a dessert business for you

00:03:42.060 or for her?

00:03:42.840 So interpersonal relationships.

00:03:45.300 Because that's what you were going to finish.

00:03:46.360 So like men and women or partners in business together.

00:03:51.640 I don't know whether or not that mixes very well.

00:03:53.500 I can't pull it off.

00:03:55.460 So I've been, I would say the majority of our fights

00:04:02.680 have been, and we don't fight, are around business issues.

00:04:08.740 So I've kind of decided I'm going to put this in a little box.

00:04:12.680 You do what you want to do.

00:04:14.300 So as an example, a couple of days ago,

00:04:16.880 she had an IP issue with one of her competitors, right?

00:04:20.280 And I told her not to do this thing.

00:04:23.240 And she said in her French Canadian accent,

00:04:25.820 I'm going to do whatever I want.

00:04:27.200 That's not probably how she said it, did she?

00:04:29.600 No, no explicit.

00:04:30.700 Yeah, OK.

00:04:31.620 So I said, cool, go ahead.

00:04:33.800 And within six hours, she had to very publicly take it down

00:04:36.860 and apologize and all these types of things.

00:04:39.460 because she's just a ready, fire, aim type of person,

00:04:44.800 which is very good as an entrepreneur.

00:04:47.980 But sometimes you step on a couple people's toes.

00:04:50.440 You will have to apologize.

00:04:52.300 Yeah.

00:04:52.840 So I'm legal in the back saying, hey,

00:04:55.220 I think you should really not do this. 1.00

00:04:57.400 I think this is going to actually bite you in the ass. 1.00

00:04:59.320 And I would say it bites her in the ass 1.00

00:05:03.160 more often than she succeeds. 1.00

00:05:05.140 But that's just the way that those relationships work.

00:05:07.420 She could watch this, Liam.

00:05:08.380 You're OK with it.

00:05:09.340 That's totally fine, because we've already discussed this.

00:05:11.680 I'm totally open.

00:05:12.760 OK, 100%.

00:05:14.020 So my mindset is, we might as well put it all out there.

00:05:16.540 OK, but you were going to tell a story of how you met her,

00:05:18.600 maybe, or something?

00:05:19.400 So I met her at Mastermind Talks.

00:05:21.860 Oh, wow, MMT.

00:05:23.220 First one in Toronto.

00:05:24.320 Yeah, where you were, too.

00:05:26.580 And I remember going in there.

00:05:29.260 And this is something that some people know,

00:05:33.640 but not enough people know.

00:05:35.740 I'm putting it out here, too.

00:05:37.740 She was maybe like, I don't know, 22, 23,

00:05:40.980 or something like that.

00:05:42.600 She really wanted to go to Mastermind Talks.

00:05:45.240 Yeah, and it's expensive, right?

00:05:46.740 It's a very significant investment.

00:05:48.120 It's a premium event.

00:05:48.980 Yeah.

00:05:50.020 So she shows up at the front desk, and she says,

00:05:52.360 hey, I've been sent to film.

00:05:57.400 I'm here to help the film crew.

00:06:00.900 So the people at the front desk, not true.

00:06:03.400 OK, this is interesting, because I know Jason very well.

00:06:05.600 I'm curious.

00:06:06.140 And I think most of you will forget Chandler Bolt.

00:06:08.480 I don't know if you know Chandler,

00:06:09.480 but he was a volunteer there, year one.

00:06:11.620 Amir Rosick.

00:06:12.980 Yeah, so actually, OK.

00:06:13.880 Lots of great people, you know, and it's just sort of like.

00:06:16.160 What happened?

00:06:16.820 So she, they told her, oh, well, why don't you go?

00:06:21.740 I met at that conference.

00:06:22.940 Because she tried to get in. 0.96

00:06:24.620 So she then went over to the videographer, Gebs.

00:06:29.300 Yeah, Michael Gebbins.

00:06:30.600 Who's a super happy guy.

00:06:31.820 One of the happiest people on planet Earth.

00:06:33.620 In the planet Earth, yes, accurate.

00:06:35.980 Then she said, well, I was sent by the front desk

00:06:40.220 to help you film.

00:06:42.360 And Gebs was like, oh, great.

00:06:44.700 Help me out.

00:06:45.760 So she was there for the two days.

00:06:48.740 This worked.

00:06:49.740 This worked.

00:06:50.360 She got in.

00:06:51.540 And then she approached me at lunch.

00:06:53.980 Why?

00:06:54.480 She started chatting with me.

00:06:55.900 So she thought that I was a really nasty guy

00:06:59.420 the first time that she met me.

00:07:01.320 She said that I was very kind of transactional in the way

00:07:05.160 that I interacted with people, which may have been correct.

00:07:08.700 I remember going into that event just being like, wow,

00:07:11.520 there are some fantastic people.

00:07:14.080 That was when we just started Time Doctor and Staff.com

00:07:18.420 as our other product.

00:07:20.020 And yeah, it was very transactional.

00:07:22.920 But then I said, oh man, this girl's really cute. 0.99

00:07:25.160 So I said, I got her phone number.

00:07:28.140 And then maybe about three or four days later,

00:07:30.160 we ended up connecting over drinks.

00:07:32.400 And it's like seven years later, I don't know, six years later.

00:07:36.580 Did Jason Gaynard ever find out that she?

00:07:39.460 I think I actually did tell Jason a couple of years ago.

00:07:43.160 Because that would be amazing.

00:07:44.400 I clipped this out and sent it to him.

00:07:45.860 It's crazy that it's just sort of like.

00:07:48.640 I just find this so fascinating because clearly I was there.

00:07:52.640 That was the event where I shared my story

00:07:54.820 for the first time ever.

00:07:56.200 Yeah.

00:07:57.200 That was intense, by the way.

00:07:58.460 Well, I didn't know how to tell it without, you know.

00:08:00.920 It's one of those things where you want to be raw,

00:08:04.680 but it can be intense.

00:08:06.740 But the fun fact, for those that don't know this,

00:08:10.860 is not only was it the first time I told it because of the big,

00:08:15.680 the reason was the charity component.

00:08:17.540 So whoever won the best talk would win.

00:08:19.040 I came in second behind Joey Coleman,

00:08:20.780 who was a world-class speaker, so he totally deserved it.

00:08:24.140 But before I go on, Renee goes to me,

00:08:26.900 my wife, fiance at the time.

00:08:28.480 She's pregnant. 1.00

00:08:30.260 She goes, my parents are on their way.

00:08:31.720 They wanted to surprise you.

00:08:33.660 They want to see your talk.

00:08:34.600 And I was like, don't let them leave until I talk to them.

00:08:39.060 And her mom broke down in tears when 1.00

00:08:42.040 I came off stage after and talked to her.

00:08:43.780 Because she said, I had no clue, but now it makes sense.

00:08:47.420 Because she couldn't understand me.

00:08:49.040 And anyways, it's neat to know that not only

00:08:52.160 was it a pivotal event for me, but for other people,

00:08:55.220 obviously yourself and many others.

00:08:57.020 And, you know, I think about you a lot in that context of where you came from and where you are now.

00:09:04.560 And not to necessarily be disingenuous, but like life's been pretty easy for me overall.

00:09:10.860 I'm very successful. I'm very happy of where I am right now.

00:09:14.220 You know, life is great.

00:09:16.700 But I didn't I wasn't dealt the cards that you were dealt at the beginning of that process.

00:09:22.440 And if I were dealt those cards, I don't know where I'd be right now.

00:09:27.780 And I think, and you do a lot of work about this as well.

00:09:32.880 I don't know where the majority of those people are.

00:09:35.180 Was it luck?

00:09:36.580 Was it mindset?

00:09:38.440 Was it skill?

00:09:39.580 You know, that's something that I think about a lot because I try to figure out, like, what are those people in society that have been dealt that bad hand and where can they go?

00:09:51.240 And you're an example of success, but there are plenty of people that haven't, you know, they've been dealt the same cards and they didn't get to where you are right now.

00:09:59.440 Well, so there's Jason, actually, Gaynard, same guy, MMT, invited a bunch of friends to do the Hustle 2.0 event, which is in prison in the U.S.

00:10:12.740 Yeah.

00:10:12.920 um, what prison was north of LA. And so we go into this prison, we spend a day with, uh, they don't

00:10:21.120 like to call them inmates. They call them, um, incarcerated individuals or, you know, offenders.

00:10:26.460 They just don't like the word inmate. And, uh, we do this program. And one of the exercises that

00:10:32.260 we do is called a step to the line. So step to the line is you have all the volunteers,

00:10:38.060 all the volunteers are entrepreneurs. Okay. So a lot of the people you would have met at, uh,

00:10:41.800 MMT are on this side.

00:10:44.540 And then on the other side, it's all

00:10:46.240 the incarcerated individuals, which are between 22.

00:10:50.680 And some of them are 56 years old.

00:10:54.180 And Kat, who runs the program, there's 0.74

00:10:57.300 a line in the front of us, all of us.

00:10:59.120 And she starts asking questions.

00:11:02.260 Things like, step to the line if you've ever drank.

00:11:08.500 You know what I mean?

00:11:09.440 And then everybody steps back.

00:11:10.480 And then it's step to the line.

00:11:11.860 And it just progressively gets more intimate.

00:11:15.820 Step to the line if you were raised by a single parent.

00:11:20.560 Step to the line if you've ever committed a crime

00:11:25.120 and not been caught for it.

00:11:28.300 Which, I mean, if you've ever, most of us have, right?

00:11:32.240 So all of a sudden now, you're starting

00:11:34.120 to see this where both parties step to the line, right?

00:11:38.320 Including the ones that are incarcerated.

00:11:40.340 And everybody that's on the line that is not in there,

00:11:43.340 we start realizing that we're not dissimilar.

00:11:46.740 And then it just gets continuous slower.

00:11:48.340 Steps in line if you've ever had a sibling die,

00:11:50.380 if you've ever had your parent abuse you,

00:11:53.120 if you ever lost a child.

00:11:54.560 I mean, it was such a powerful exercise

00:11:57.900 to just demonstrate, I think, what you're saying is

00:12:01.000 a lot of it is circumstance and environment.

00:12:05.620 And for whatever reason, some of us

00:12:10.320 discovered entrepreneurship.

00:12:12.300 And some of us had people show up in their lives like I had.

00:12:14.760 I had an incredible person named Brian that took me aside

00:12:17.640 and shared some words with me that transformed my life.

00:12:21.180 And some of them didn't.

00:12:22.920 So it's interesting that you say that,

00:12:25.740 and I appreciate it, because I think about it all the time.

00:12:28.480 Because my work with kids, it's like, what was it?

00:12:33.960 Because if I knew, I would obviously love to share it.

00:12:39.120 Yeah, my mother's a schoolteacher, or she was a schoolteacher.

00:12:42.000 She's retired now.

00:12:43.100 And the amount of kids that she saw going through that she just knew

00:12:49.120 without someone coming in to make that course correction,

00:12:53.160 they're moving in this direction in their lives.

00:12:55.340 And the vast majority of the time, she's right.

00:12:59.380 Did she feel like that's what she saw as it was somebody came into that child's life?

00:13:04.700 Well, so she was always telling me the horror stories, right?

00:13:08.560 Like the kid whose father murdered the wife, the mother, and was disposing of the body over a couple weeks while the kid is in the house.

00:13:20.580 And the psychological damage that that type of child experiences in the fifth grade.

00:13:25.940 And my mother has no psychologist, no sociologist, no social worker.

00:13:31.840 It's just her as the primary, you know, caregiver to be able to make sure that this kid is OK because they're being managed by their grandparents, that kind of thing.

00:13:40.360 Like that kind of stuff is just intense.

00:13:42.300 How do you overcome that?

00:13:44.480 How do you and there's plenty of people that are damaged to some degree.

00:13:51.980 Yeah.

00:13:52.160 But then how do you overcome that?

00:13:53.360 And I could say, well, there's definitely things that have happened in my life that have produced damage, but not to the same, not in the same degree to like the vast majority of people.

00:14:05.640 And trauma, my success stems from having a proper upbringing, you know, having an environment that's really great for me to be able to succeed.

00:14:16.520 I was able to pursue a sports career.

00:14:19.760 I was able to pursue graduate school.

00:14:23.060 All of the pieces came into place.

00:14:26.360 But there was no point in which I was just in a high speed

00:14:30.200 chase with a key of coke in the back and a gun.

00:14:34.200 That wasn't in my deck, right?

00:14:36.200 Yeah, I didn't pick up that joker.

00:14:39.000 And so that happens to a lot of people.

00:14:42.280 And it happens even to people that work for me.

00:14:46.180 And I try to think to myself, well, how can I actually like,

00:14:48.840 we had someone just recently who, about a year and a half ago,

00:14:53.220 that they were addicted to some restricted substances.

00:14:58.700 And we fired the person.

00:15:01.440 And we said, well, we'll pay for rehab.

00:15:03.940 And they didn't take that option.

00:15:07.780 And they couldn't work in the company anymore.

00:15:09.820 So how do you get that person to make that course correction?

00:15:15.500 Oh, that's hard, man.

00:15:16.700 I still haven't figured that out.

00:15:18.440 I do a lot better, obviously, with the ones that are ready for that change.

00:15:23.260 I get the call from the parent.

00:15:27.740 Yeah.

00:15:28.140 I mean, those are the ones that I just, it's, and I like, I feel for this, this person that, that, uh, that's worked with us for years.

00:15:39.000 And I was just like, where did that go wrong?

00:15:42.980 could I have come in three months earlier and possibly drop the hammer down and maybe things

00:15:50.100 would have been different you know you think about that and you think because you know we have about

00:15:54.100 100 people right now in 32 different countries all over the world it's very difficult to be able

00:15:58.900 to manage their day in day out of their lives yeah so there's a lot of other variables that

00:16:03.620 we measure from an HR perspective to make sure that they're okay and and even I have you know

00:16:09.100 I have friends of mine that have gone that direction as well,

00:16:11.300 but like figuring out where you can,

00:16:16.760 can I detect that earlier?

00:16:18.600 Could I have made that change two weeks earlier,

00:16:22.060 three weeks earlier?

00:16:22.840 I think I remember I was telling you about,

00:16:25.880 I put it on your group,

00:16:28.380 a friend of mine, Ryan, who had,

00:16:32.440 I call him, he died of mental illness.

00:16:36.360 I think that's at least the way that I want to interpret it.

00:16:38.760 And I've spoken to my therapist about this.

00:16:41.160 And a good friend of mine, entrepreneur, killed himself.

00:16:45.740 How long ago?

00:16:47.080 About two years ago.

00:16:49.120 Yeah.

00:16:50.920 And a good friend of mine.

00:16:55.340 And where he went wrong, I remember talking to him two weeks before he did it.

00:17:01.560 And I remember there were definite signs that something was going wrong.

00:17:05.060 and i was in hong kong because i was i had this fantastic i have this fantastic lifestyle i'm so

00:17:12.960 happy like i'm just incredibly happy as a person and uh i remember him saying oh yeah everything's

00:17:20.760 great you know i said well why don't you he ran an entrepreneur group i said you could use our

00:17:25.760 office space if you wanted to kind of i was trying to get him re-motivated and he said no no everything's

00:17:30.000 fine. Everything's fine. And, you know, nothing was fine. So where do you go with that? Was that

00:17:35.960 too late? Should I have spoken to him six months ago, a year ago? Was there something else that I

00:17:40.780 could have done? Um, and when I talked to my therapist, the answer is no. The answer is there

00:17:46.940 are people who, there are people who kill themselves and there are people who talk about

00:17:51.840 killing themselves. And unfortunately those are two very separate groups. Separate people. Yeah.

00:17:56.840 So the people that are going to kill themselves do it.

00:18:00.900 And they usually don't give you very good signs beforehand

00:18:04.120 that they're going to have it happen.

00:18:05.520 And suicide is a massive epidemic in our society.

00:18:09.660 And it's also massively over-represented in entrepreneurs.

00:18:15.000 And you coach entrepreneurs, right?

00:18:17.880 So mindset is one of those things

00:18:21.780 that is probably a pretty important component of your job.

00:18:25.440 And you're dealing with these high-level performers

00:18:27.600 that are doing absolutely amazing things.

00:18:29.400 Type A incredible people.

00:18:31.160 But then when you have that type A person,

00:18:34.000 maybe they're not interested in getting help.

00:18:36.300 Maybe they put that down in their box deep down,

00:18:40.740 and eventually it comes back.

00:18:44.200 Because one thing can go wrong, you're OK.

00:18:46.920 Two things can go wrong, maybe you're in a bad mood.

00:18:49.500 If seven things go wrong all at the same time,

00:18:51.900 it can happen to anybody.

00:18:52.940 Especially if you have your identity tied up in the business.

00:18:55.340 And that's a lot of the work I do.

00:18:56.780 I just had a client call me, just reach out to me a couple weeks ago.

00:19:00.440 And usually I can tell when the email is like, we need to talk.

00:19:05.000 And we get on the call and he shared with me, you know, like I've been drinking way too much.

00:19:11.500 I'm eating way too much.

00:19:13.120 And I'm like spiraling and I don't know how to stop it.

00:19:17.340 And you mentioned, you know, quickly that you talked to your therapist.

00:19:19.760 Like, you know, I think it's one of those things where I'm

00:19:24.020 a business coach, but I can also, you know,

00:19:28.980 I think I have a responsibility to set the example.

00:19:31.640 You know, and I think that there's some leading habits

00:19:34.100 that are positive, like working out and feeding your mind

00:19:37.660 and surrounding yourself with the right people.

00:19:39.280 And those are kind of like outside of the tactical things

00:19:42.740 that I teach on how to grow businesses.

00:19:45.580 I put in there because talking about getting a therapist

00:19:49.620 is probably a little too much.

00:19:51.060 Like some people don't want to be told that.

00:19:53.520 But in that case, I say, I talk about my therapist a lot

00:19:57.420 so that we're trying to break those barriers.

00:19:58.980 Totally.

00:19:59.560 And that's like what I said, because I was like, dude,

00:20:02.880 there's things that I'm not qualified to support you on.

00:20:06.580 And these are some of those.

00:20:09.220 Like when we started digging into why he unfortunately

00:20:12.060 had a family member take his life as well a couple of years

00:20:15.320 prior, was just wasn't sure if he was still

00:20:18.360 dealing with that if he was.

00:20:19.640 One of the big things that we discovered

00:20:21.340 was that he didn't feel deserving of his success.

00:20:24.840 He had grown the business 4X in a year

00:20:27.420 and started sabotaging himself, his relationship,

00:20:31.860 and his business.

00:20:32.640 He had like half his staff quit on him

00:20:34.260 because he became an absent owner.

00:20:37.140 That is a problem that a lot of people have.

00:20:41.160 I've had that problem.

00:20:42.120 Yep.

00:20:43.260 Self-sabotage, where it's just sort of like,

00:20:46.440 why are you not doing that? And actually I figured out a good technique, at least for myself to be

00:20:52.160 able to get past that, which is if it's, if it's the thing that you don't want to do,

00:20:56.600 usually the moment you do it, you immediately feel better. Like going to the gym. Yeah. Like

00:21:03.260 ripping off a bandaid, right? It's just sort of like, you know, it's the right thing. It's hard.

00:21:07.400 But once you do it, letting somebody go, I make videos of myself when I haven't been to the gym

00:21:13.140 in a while and uh the gym that i have is open till midnight so a couple years ago i made a

00:21:19.160 commitment to go into the gym every single day so just walk in i can walk right back out yeah

00:21:24.660 just get in the door yeah so that's been actually a challenge recently um that has been a big issue

00:21:30.400 for me and is going to the gym is going to the gym yeah uh i lost my workout partner so that's

00:21:36.820 just a major part of just that reliability that routine to be able to get back into it and i've

00:21:41.660 I've been doing a lot of traveling.

00:21:43.500 That's always super difficult.

00:21:44.900 Actually, I was able to work out in Cairo a week ago

00:21:47.600 with an Olympic cyclist, which was amazing.

00:21:51.840 These are the type of amazing opportunities

00:21:53.400 that I'm able to experience, which are just mind-blowing

00:21:57.740 and what entrepreneurship can open up for you.

00:22:00.440 But I still have these challenges.

00:22:02.340 So what I do is I make a video of myself

00:22:06.680 after I get out of the gym talking about how great I feel

00:22:11.060 after I got out of the gym.

00:22:12.440 To yourself?

00:22:13.060 Or do you put on social media?

00:22:14.060 Yeah, to myself.

00:22:14.560 No, I'm just like, Liam, you feel fantastic right now.

00:22:18.020 Like, you got endorphins running through your system.

00:22:20.060 Do this again.

00:22:20.620 You feel good.

00:22:21.180 Your back feels better. 0.95

00:22:23.240 Gosh darn it. 0.81

00:22:23.880 Do this again. 0.98

00:22:24.780 You look good.

00:22:26.280 I don't go that far.

00:22:27.120 You don't go that far?

00:22:27.740 OK, cool.

00:22:28.780 Maybe you do.

00:22:29.780 So that whole Saturday Night Live

00:22:31.980 skate where the guy's in the mirror

00:22:33.260 and he's talking to himself.

00:22:34.220 I don't know that one.

00:22:34.880 No?

00:22:35.220 No.

00:22:35.720 No.

00:22:36.220 Send it to me.

00:22:37.260 Yeah.

00:22:38.260 So I make these videos.

00:22:39.680 And I'm trying to figure out all these triggers

00:22:42.460 to be able to keep myself performing at a high level.

00:22:46.320 And that's actually, I mean, to go from the people

00:22:49.020 that are dealt that bad hand and maybe they falter

00:22:56.000 versus keeping yourself at that high performance level.

00:22:59.800 Yeah, man.

00:23:00.420 I mean, those are two separate issues.

00:23:01.760 Yeah.

00:23:02.240 But I think they're actually connected.

00:23:03.480 They're similar.

00:23:04.000 Yeah.

00:23:04.360 No, my whole thing is even that mindset,

00:23:06.760 you said it real quick, can't.

00:23:07.980 You know, like, I remind myself every day,

00:23:10.720 and one of my things is sweat every day,

00:23:12.540 is because I get to.

00:23:14.700 And I remind myself, I get to run today.

00:23:17.400 I get to work out today.

00:23:18.740 I get to work with my team or, you know, clients.

00:23:22.200 And because I never want to take it for granted,

00:23:25.660 because there's so many people that can't.

00:23:28.500 And I know them because I visit them, you know,

00:23:30.620 in prison or in rehab, or that, you know,

00:23:33.840 are physically impaired.

00:23:34.820 And they would love the opportunity to go run 5K.

00:23:37.320 They just physically can't.

00:23:39.020 And I just think that it's a really important mindset to kind of get to.

00:23:44.260 My uncle, who's a quadriplegic, I remember when we were going up some stairs

00:23:48.720 and I was walking up the stairs and I always used to run upstairs

00:23:54.560 and I walked upstairs at that one point.

00:23:56.040 He's like, why are you walking up the stairs?

00:23:58.320 And I said, I don't know.

00:24:00.100 He said, never walk upstairs, always run up them.

00:24:04.640 I can't run upstairs.

00:24:05.820 You should always run up the stairs.

00:24:07.860 So every flight of stairs, I run up the stairs.

00:24:10.320 Sprint.

00:24:11.160 And the moment I can't do that, man, something's wrong.

00:24:14.580 Something's broken.

00:24:15.420 Something's broken, yeah.

00:24:17.060 Yeah.

00:24:17.780 This turned into a very interesting podcast quite quickly.

00:24:22.480 It's just how I do them.

00:24:23.220 Is this the way we do?

00:24:24.320 It's how I do them.

00:24:24.940 We don't talk about business.

00:24:25.920 We don't talk about anything like that.

00:24:27.340 It's the conversation that we would have over dinner

00:24:31.580 that people get to listen in on, right?

00:24:34.200 So I've always been curious.

00:24:35.880 How did you and Rob become business partners?

00:24:39.900 Because Rob lives in Australia.

00:24:41.040 You live in Ottawa.

00:24:41.840 We're also very different people.

00:24:43.740 I coach both of you guys.

00:24:45.300 I feel like a marriage counselor sometimes.

00:24:47.520 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:48.520 No, so me and Rob met at South by Southwest.

00:24:52.420 I have a lot to thank for that conference.

00:24:55.440 Wow, that's where we met.

00:24:56.720 Yeah, the first South by, I was running a consultancy

00:25:03.220 that was helping YouTube channels basically monetize.

00:25:06.440 OK.

00:25:07.040 And I was doing one of the first instances

00:25:10.760 where you could basically have a URL inside of your advertisement.

00:25:16.620 So I was able to secure the Netflix CPA deal

00:25:21.200 for a particular YouTube channel.

00:25:24.480 And I took a percentage of that.

00:25:26.020 Wow.

00:25:26.420 Because they were giving like $20 signups

00:25:28.780 or something back then, right?

00:25:29.740 I think I was still under NDA, but it was-

00:25:32.160 More?

00:25:32.840 Very, very good, like millions and millions of dollars a month, as an example.

00:25:40.560 So that, I remember going to South by, spoke on this panel, met Rob, met you, and closed

00:25:51.740 a deal that was going to set me up for the next couple of years, like easily.

00:25:57.540 And from that, I actually, so at that point, YouTube was relatively new.

00:26:01.160 You know, it evolved, but it was at a certain point in which it really wasn't the big thing

00:26:07.700 that it is today.

00:26:08.400 Have you been going to events prior?

00:26:10.020 Was that like the first event that you got out to?

00:26:12.220 I had been to a couple of other events.

00:26:14.280 Actually, a friend of mine, Esprit, had put me on a panel for remote work.

00:26:19.660 So she knew that I was an expert on remote work, even because I was doing it for 15 years.

00:26:23.960 Yeah.

00:26:24.500 So I've always worked remotely.

00:26:26.680 It's always been my preferred way to work.

00:26:29.300 And you guys run the conference now?

00:26:31.160 We're running, running remote. Yeah. And so for us, uh, or for me, that was one of the first

00:26:38.920 conferences that I ever went to. That was like big, big, big. And, uh, yeah, I walked away with

00:26:44.540 a multimillion dollar deal in my pocket, um, and a business partner. And I came to the conclusion,

00:26:50.580 do I want to continue on with this YouTube thing or do I want to learn software? Because Rob,

00:26:55.560 Oh, wow.

00:26:56.180 Rob basically had an alpha of time doctor.

00:27:00.220 And Rob is a medical doctor, so that's

00:27:02.500 where the term time doctor comes from.

00:27:06.260 And he said, basically, this tool was able to.

00:27:11.240 So he's a doctor.

00:27:12.940 He's a medical doctor.

00:27:14.220 That makes a lot of sense.

00:27:15.520 Now that you say that, I can understand why.

00:27:16.940 He's an ER doctor.

00:27:17.820 Yes.

00:27:18.440 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:19.600 He looks like a doctor.

00:27:20.840 Right.

00:27:22.540 It makes sense.

00:27:23.420 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:24.420 No, I think we should get more into sort of me

00:27:27.300 and Rob's dynamic, because it's a really interesting.

00:27:30.360 So Rob is one of my best friends.

00:27:34.900 We are business partners.

00:27:36.420 I love in the first few conversations we had together,

00:27:39.160 he was like in his garage.

00:27:41.440 I think it was like- It's his kids, yeah.

00:27:42.900 Yeah, he's on his iPhone and like late at night

00:27:45.420 because he's Australia.

00:27:46.900 One of the best work ethics I've ever met.

00:27:49.660 Crazy, yeah.

00:27:50.760 His work ethic is insane. 0.96

00:27:53.280 But he is the polar opposite personality type from me.

00:27:57.400 So it's a yin and yang type of situation.

00:28:01.520 I like to get my information from people.

00:28:03.560 He likes to get his information from books, as an example.

00:28:06.280 Like, I would go out and say, OK, well,

00:28:08.040 how do you run Facebook ads?

00:28:09.840 Well, let's talk to five experts that do Facebook ads.

00:28:13.460 But Rob goes deep, and he's like, OK,

00:28:15.780 I'm going to go into this hole for the next 25 hours,

00:28:18.080 read all this information, come out the other end,

00:28:20.240 and say, this is how you run Facebook ads.

00:28:22.580 And that approach actually is quite good

00:28:24.720 if you can keep that relationship stable.

00:28:27.180 I actually think it's a really good founding team

00:28:30.180 because what he's good at, I'm not good at, and the reverse.

00:28:36.300 But it's interesting because it can provide unique challenges

00:28:39.120 in the way that we work.

00:28:40.760 And Rob is the CEO of the company.

00:28:42.260 And I think another important aspect to the way that we've succeeded

00:28:48.820 is Rob is the CEO of the company.

00:28:52.580 If Rob decides to do something, if he's made the decision,

00:28:55.980 that's the decision.

00:28:57.060 Even if I think it's a horrible decision.

00:28:58.640 Disagree and commit.

00:28:59.840 I disagree with your decision.

00:29:01.400 I think it's the wrong decision.

00:29:03.100 I'm going to try to make this decision as successful

00:29:05.640 as humanly possible.

00:29:06.260 Don't most people report to you?

00:29:08.060 No.

00:29:08.560 So it depends.

00:29:09.760 I do most of the marketing.

00:29:11.420 So marketing and sales, customer success,

00:29:14.180 they report to me.

00:29:15.500 And he manages engineering?

00:29:17.340 Engineering, support to a degree,

00:29:20.820 and then also runs the executive team.

00:29:22.760 OK.

00:29:23.380 Yeah.

00:29:24.120 So I'm one of those executives that sit on that team.

00:29:27.060 But fundamentally, at the end of the day,

00:29:28.940 Rob's the CEO of the company.

00:29:30.540 I've had a lot of private conversations with Rob,

00:29:32.560 which are just like, this is, we had an issue about nine

00:29:37.740 months ago.

00:29:38.240 And if you're a customer of Time Doctor,

00:29:39.540 you probably know, we went down for two and a half days.

00:29:42.540 Lost a million ARR in two days.

00:29:46.540 It was a disaster, right?

00:29:47.940 Like, a disaster.

00:29:51.060 And about a month later, Rob comes to me and says, well, you know, I think you're right.

00:29:56.420 We should have really re-engineered our tech stack way earlier.

00:30:00.460 We should have been paying down this technological debt.

00:30:02.620 And this was me two years ago saying, we need to do this.

00:30:06.500 We need to pause for six months.

00:30:08.420 And we need, and I was getting it from other people saying, you haven't refactored your tech in six years.

00:30:16.320 it's a ticking time bomb.

00:30:18.340 You're playing Russian roulette.

00:30:21.920 And because we're both not technical founders,

00:30:26.180 and Rob is the person that's leading the tech team,

00:30:30.020 I basically just said, okay, well,

00:30:31.760 all these other people are telling me

00:30:33.620 that this is a really bad idea,

00:30:34.940 but it's your decision,

00:30:36.920 and we're going to go the way you want to go.

00:30:39.680 And I mean, he told me that privately.

00:30:41.620 Now I'm telling everybody on YouTube,

00:30:42.800 But we do have that good relationship where he can come back and say, you know what?

00:30:48.900 You were right.

00:30:49.540 I was wrong.

00:30:50.820 Let's try to fix this problem and move forward.

00:30:54.220 But at the end of the day, if you're constantly fighting about those issues, I see a lot of young founding teams.

00:31:02.220 And they tear themselves apart because there's just lines that they say, like, this line and no further.

00:31:09.700 We are not doing this.

00:31:11.980 Well, then someone's got to go, right?

00:31:13.760 Like, it's not a holacracy.

00:31:16.740 It is a military service.

00:31:18.980 You are in, like, there is a general of the company,

00:31:21.520 and you can disagree.

00:31:23.720 But once that decision is made, you've got to move forward.

00:31:26.360 Sometimes making the wrong decision

00:31:28.700 is better than making no decision at all.

00:31:30.680 Yeah.

00:31:31.380 Yeah.

00:31:32.220 What have you learned about, like, building remote teams?

00:31:36.220 Like, from, you know, I know that you talked

00:31:38.280 about some situations that, you know,

00:31:42.340 some bad situations where you wish

00:31:43.760 you could have been more in the know.

00:31:46.260 Yeah.

00:31:47.360 But how do you build teams, even if they're distributed?

00:31:53.020 Well, and so we have a, well, we.

00:31:57.260 I have a friend of mine, Andreas Klinger,

00:31:59.340 who just started a fund.

00:32:00.200 I thought you just, like, went and said, like, we,

00:32:02.180 and then, like, OK, I'm going to make it about somebody else.

00:32:04.260 Yeah, no.

00:32:04.920 So I have this friend.

00:32:06.120 So I have this friend.

00:32:07.160 The reason is last year at Running Remote, my friend Andreas, who was the CTO at Product Hunt and now is the guy in charge of remote development at AngelList, he spoke at last year's Running Remote.

00:32:23.860 Fantastic presentation.

00:32:25.180 He just blew everyone away.

00:32:27.020 And he said, you know, I'd love to always have, I've always wanted a fund just to be able to fund remote companies.

00:32:35.700 Because one of the biggest variables that we've had,

00:32:38.000 and you're asking this question, how do you build remote teams?

00:32:41.160 It's so new, right?

00:32:43.020 We've been doing it for 15.

00:32:44.100 I've been doing it for 15 years.

00:32:46.160 Time Doctor's been up and running for eight years.

00:32:48.680 But remote work is relatively new, right?

00:32:51.120 Like the last five years, it's really starting to pop up.

00:32:53.560 I think we work enabled a lot of like distributed teams.

00:32:56.620 And then it crashed and burned.

00:32:57.820 And now we're going to be in trouble for the next couple years.

00:33:00.820 But, like, so now you have, and even tools like Slack, you know, these.

00:33:06.100 Oh, Zoom.

00:33:06.940 I mean, it transformed everything.

00:33:08.600 These infrastructure tools to be able to really work remotely.

00:33:11.120 Yeah.

00:33:11.500 Even, like, Office Vibes or, like, a fellow.app or, you know, like, to get you, you know, some sentiment of what's going on amongst your team.

00:33:19.680 Exactly.

00:33:19.880 Yeah.

00:33:20.280 So we've got all of these.

00:33:23.100 Now that we've just got the infrastructure in place, now we need to get the money.

00:33:27.560 So it was mind-blowing because Andreas raised, like, a couple hundred thousand in 20 minutes just saying, well, I've always wanted to build this fund connected to remote work.

00:33:38.440 And that's the thesis?

00:33:39.700 The thesis of the fund is because venture does not understand how remote work adds into their formula, because all venture capitalists have this formula, right?

00:33:52.140 It's like, come to the Valley, get really smart people, pay them $250,000 a year, and then you're going to produce this output.

00:34:01.000 Remote is a very different model.

00:34:05.100 So they don't know where to put that inside of their formula.

00:34:08.820 So our thesis is there are really great companies that are being built.

00:34:12.500 What are some ones that you could, like, I mean, I know of, like, Automatic, GitHub, but what are other ones?

00:34:18.440 GitLab, Envision.

00:34:20.360 So Envision's a really interesting one.

00:34:21.720 The version is interesting, New York-based.

00:34:23.260 Four-year company, billion-dollar valuation.

00:34:26.340 Wow.

00:34:26.800 Entirely remote.

00:34:28.020 1,200 employees.

00:34:28.320 I didn't know that.

00:34:29.340 I thought they were 1,200 employees.

00:34:32.460 Entirely remote.

00:34:33.120 Envisionapp.com.

00:34:34.260 Yes.

00:34:34.760 Wow.

00:34:35.800 And they are, I think they're like, you know,

00:34:39.300 top three fastest growing companies in the last year

00:34:42.380 in terms of the tech space.

00:34:43.480 Yeah, I know SlideShare had a big remote team.

00:34:46.680 But mostly because of their.

00:34:47.880 was just on a podcast with HubSpot just recently.

00:34:52.440 Yeah, Dharmesh just met.

00:34:53.020 I was in Boston, and he talked about how they-

00:34:56.000 One-fifth of their team is remote.

00:34:57.340 Well, and the thesis was interesting,

00:34:59.100 because Dharmesh, he's such a thinker.

00:35:01.420 And he just said, look, I was against it.

00:35:04.240 I wanted an office and all these things.

00:35:06.760 But if our philosophy is we've got to hire the best people,

00:35:11.000 then the probability of the best people being

00:35:12.900 within a 50-kilometer or 50-mile radius of our head office

00:35:16.220 in whatever city we're in, I mean, statistically.

00:35:18.800 And so you got a really math equation about it.

00:35:21.840 He's like, it's just not probable.

00:35:23.460 So Envision has exactly the same thesis.

00:35:26.980 And I actually.

00:35:27.940 37 Signals has been talking about this for.

00:35:30.640 Yeah, but you know, so 37 Signals, incredibly

00:35:33.420 successful business.

00:35:34.940 But then you think to yourself, oh,

00:35:36.160 that's a cute little business.

00:35:37.240 Well, it is a cute, awesome business.

00:35:39.100 Like, it's a great business to be able to run.

00:35:41.420 And they could have grown it bigger.

00:35:43.700 They chose not to.

00:35:45.440 Which I really respect.

00:35:46.780 Yep, totally.

00:35:48.660 But yeah, so right now, I think.

00:35:51.140 Who are the biggest companies at scale?

00:35:53.760 I'd say Envision.

00:35:54.800 Envision.

00:35:56.140 Automatic.

00:35:56.980 Automatic, Zapier, Wade's coming to Running Remote.

00:36:01.500 Oh, cool.

00:36:01.960 Which is going to be really awesome.

00:36:03.840 Did they announce $50 million AR or something like that?

00:36:06.480 What are their revenues?

00:36:06.980 I think they're above that now.

00:36:08.260 Above that.

00:36:08.500 I think, and they also have like 40 people.

00:36:10.840 So like they've got one of the best revenue to, yeah, exactly.

00:36:16.180 So that's nuts.

00:36:18.340 These companies are starting to come up, but the data is still small.

00:36:22.880 So the fund's thesis is, well, because venture doesn't know what to do with these companies,

00:36:29.300 let's invest in these companies, and there won't be as much competition, right?

00:36:36.020 Because they're, yeah, it's the thesis of the fund.

00:36:38.620 Another one is Hotjar.

00:36:39.880 Okay.

00:36:41.560 Bootstrapped.

00:36:42.240 Yep.

00:36:42.520 20, 30 million ARR company.

00:36:46.280 They've said they're at 20 million.

00:36:47.860 But I knew they were going way past that.

00:36:50.980 Ken Weary was at Running Remote last year.

00:36:54.400 And Bootstrap Company, they tried to get venture capital.

00:36:58.520 Everyone laughed at them.

00:37:00.280 They're like, you're remote.

00:37:02.280 Like, well, everyone needs to come to Boston,

00:37:06.280 Palo Alto, Toronto, wherever it might be.

00:37:08.180 That playbook has never, for a majority of VCs,

00:37:11.280 They've just never invested in a company where they've seen that.

00:37:13.740 So they just say pattern recognition, not comply, pass.

00:37:18.680 Right.

00:37:19.240 What are you seeing companies do right that are succeeding?

00:37:25.020 This is a funny one.

00:37:26.700 So I've had the opportunity to do running remote for a couple years now

00:37:30.500 and interact with some of the best remote first founders on planet Earth.

00:37:36.180 and so i asked them questions like well what does everyone think about doing

00:37:41.600 video calls on zoom and i get different answers

00:37:45.780 and i actually am getting different answers on everything so i can talk to envision and they can

00:37:53.360 do things one way and then i can talk to automatic and they do things very very differently or hubspot

00:37:58.020 does things very very differently um marcy murray who is the director of support for shopify

00:38:04.260 She went from 0 to 2,000 remote support reps within three years.

00:38:09.260 Right?

00:38:09.760 So Shopify is actually majority remote.

00:38:12.260 Yeah, because they said they, I thought Toby said 1,000 employees.

00:38:16.260 In their Ottawa office.

00:38:18.260 Oh.

00:38:19.260 In their Ottawa office.

00:38:20.260 OK.

00:38:21.260 So their support, you know, and it's like, yes, it's a support department,

00:38:25.260 but you've got to run it like a business, especially at that scale, right?

00:38:28.260 If you have 2,000 support reps, you've got to run that like an entire self-sustaining business.

00:38:33.260 self-sustaining business. Um, so there's also these companies that are, that are running remote

00:38:37.440 and I'm, uh, I'm blown away that they, that no one knows what they're doing. Like there's no

00:38:45.860 playbook, no one agrees. And so my thesis out of that, or my presumption is because remote work

00:38:55.200 is the single thing that you can do to improve the productivity of your employees inside of an

00:39:02.280 organization.

00:39:03.960 Everyone's doing it wrong, but it doesn't matter

00:39:06.060 because the productivity gains are so high.

00:39:09.360 So on average, when you take someone remote,

00:39:11.760 they increase their productivity by 40%.

00:39:14.460 And that is, if you unpack that number,

00:39:16.740 it's just because of disruptions, the travel time.

00:39:19.680 Three hours driving per day.

00:39:21.240 I'm going to go into an office.

00:39:22.440 I can't hang out with my kids.

00:39:24.460 You know, water cooler conversations.

00:39:26.040 I'm much happier with myself.

00:39:27.480 And then on the negative side, I'm alone.

00:39:30.720 I feel disconnected from everyone.

00:39:33.180 When you add them all up, it's about a 40% productivity gain,

00:39:36.000 which is insane.

00:39:37.560 But more importantly, IBM just ran a pilot project

00:39:42.840 where they took 5% of their employees remote,

00:39:46.140 and they saved $30 million just in office costs for the year.

00:39:50.880 So I actually think long term in 10 years,

00:39:53.100 people will be asking to go back inside of an office

00:39:56.220 because once the next economic correction happens, which

00:39:59.440 coming um that most large corporate will see this remote thing that just recently the pipes have

00:40:08.520 been laid as you mentioned yeah slack zoom the infrastructure is deployed yeah and they'll say 0.91

00:40:13.880 to themselves oh well let's try this remote thing and then they'll say holy shit this is amazing 0.61

00:40:19.020 you know like we're we're doing huge numbers and our pnl just dropped by 20 we can keep everyone

00:40:25.660 hired, but we just reduced our cost by 20% across the board.

00:40:30.140 Well, let's implement that everywhere. 0.93

00:40:32.160 And within 10 years, I think people will say,

00:40:34.120 I want to come back into the office

00:40:35.840 because I want that type of personal interaction.

00:40:37.960 We get used to a certain thing, then we want the opposite,

00:40:40.360 and then we come back.

00:40:41.980 Everyone talks about the advantages

00:40:44.080 to the individual employee.

00:40:46.060 And when I talk to people at Running Remote,

00:40:49.160 I say, well, forget about that.

00:40:50.700 If you really want to change minds,

00:40:52.720 talk about the nuts and bolts, the dollars and cents,

00:40:55.640 connected to going remote and also the quality of the candidates you're able to recruit yeah so

00:41:00.780 you can find like envision is a perfect example of just finding absolute amazing people so quickly

00:41:07.040 and i think this is going to last for the next 18 to 24 months where you'll be able to find that

00:41:13.740 absolute top tier talent and then you think there's going to be a competitive market hub

00:41:17.320 spots already in yeah right like so they're going to pay so you're going to go in and you're going

00:41:21.600 to say, OK, well, you live in middle America,

00:41:24.300 and I'm going to hire you today for $60,000.

00:41:26.760 They're going to be like, well, HubSpot's

00:41:28.220 going to pay me $120,000.

00:41:29.600 Right.

00:41:30.140 I have someone that we just hired recently, fantastic hire.

00:41:34.300 She worked for seven years at Indeed, customer success,

00:41:38.080 senior customer success rep.

00:41:39.780 Indeed would not let her work remotely.

00:41:42.440 She moved to Eastern Europe to be closer to her family.

00:41:45.940 And guess who picked her up?

00:41:47.360 Us.

00:41:48.320 at a lower cost than she was in Toronto.

00:41:51.860 We're paying her less because she's in Eastern Europe. 1.00

00:41:55.280 And fantastic person.

00:41:57.320 We're sucking up that talent.

00:41:59.040 For now.

00:41:59.960 For now.

00:42:00.460 At that price point.

00:42:01.160 Yeah, until HubSpot and all those guys come in.

00:42:04.160 And then it's a bidding war.

00:42:06.320 But there is a really interesting,

00:42:08.200 I would call it maybe 18 to 36 month opportunity.

00:42:10.740 Yeah.

00:42:12.080 Liam, when you look back at 15 years,

00:42:17.940 sounds like you've been doing entrepreneurial stuff even even at the beginning of time doctor

00:42:21.120 when you when you first met rob you know a decade ago to the person you are today

00:42:26.840 who have you had to become to be the person sitting in front of me today

00:42:32.980 boy um i think so i talk about this a lot uh the challenge of moving from an entrepreneur to an

00:42:45.120 executive and that's a major challenge for me so the ability to be able to

00:42:52.620 entrepreneurs want to do everything themselves and they want to just come in

00:42:56.000 and they just want to like do it and I actually think that for you to be a

00:43:01.980 successful business owner long term you need to almost do the polar opposite you

00:43:07.280 need to learn the art of delegation later on in life so going from like zero

00:43:12.960 to one right someone please buy this thing it's a completely new piece of

00:43:17.460 technology brute force it I mean I remember when we were first starting up

00:43:22.320 I was just calling friends of mine like hey you know what you said you always

00:43:25.720 had this problem you should check it out right like I can set you up for a month

00:43:30.060 or two if you want you know that type of thing right and that's the stuff that I

00:43:33.480 actually really like and then when you're a hundred people and you have 15,000

00:43:39.940 leads a month coming into the business, it changes to, OK,

00:43:43.540 well, now there are six people that report to me.

00:43:47.820 And then those people have people that report to them.

00:43:50.700 And they probably have people that report to them, too.

00:43:53.920 And I'm not directly operating, which is also probably

00:43:59.080 why running remote gives me the opportunity

00:44:01.300 to kind of get a little bit of that back.

00:44:03.320 Like, I am an entrepreneur at my core.

00:44:05.700 Yeah, you're a creator.

00:44:07.020 Yeah, but you've got to become a delegator.

00:44:11.020 You've got to become that executive level person

00:44:12.960 to be able to get it to the next level.

00:44:14.720 And I've learned that from a lot of mentors.

00:44:17.240 Toby, as an example, is one that's just like his ability

00:44:20.400 to understand where his weaknesses are

00:44:22.300 and delegate the right person to that weakness

00:44:25.680 at the expense of his ego in some cases.

00:44:28.820 Huge.

00:44:29.360 I think is just like that's such a powerful lesson

00:44:32.460 and so difficult for a lot of entrepreneurs to learn.

00:44:35.140 Well, when I interviewed him, he mentioned that, you know, his job is to essentially like grow and backfill as fast as possible.

00:44:43.200 Just grow, backfill.

00:44:45.900 Right.

00:44:48.480 Anything that you wanted to chat about that we haven't?

00:44:52.820 Man, I mean, you know, maybe we should get into the dynamic of me and Rob.

00:44:59.960 I think that that's something because like I have no problem discussing that.

00:45:04.200 on the internet, I'd love to be able to know

00:45:09.900 how founders that are very different

00:45:12.900 can work better together.

00:45:15.580 And this is something that I've been,

00:45:19.620 and your group is amazing.

00:45:23.200 I actually think, not to necessarily,

00:45:25.960 SAS Academy.

00:45:26.540 So I think the value of your group

00:45:30.260 is the people that are there.

00:45:33.200 And at least for a personality type like me that really

00:45:35.440 likes to learn through learning from other people.

00:45:37.440 Yeah, and that's why the program I designed

00:45:39.180 it's got different facets.

00:45:40.960 Like for Rob that wants to consume the online content

00:45:44.100 and go deep, he can do that.

00:45:46.720 I think I'm the 98th percentile of inquisitiveness

00:45:50.440 on personality, psychographic metrics.

00:45:54.380 So I love just asking questions and figuring out

00:45:59.480 how things work.

00:46:01.020 And usually I do that through people.

00:46:04.700 So that's probably the biggest thing that I would try to,

00:46:07.520 I am constantly trying to think about is like,

00:46:10.880 how can our dynamics work better?

00:46:13.500 We just hired one of the most expensive employees

00:46:18.160 we've ever hired in the company.

00:46:21.300 Very solid six-figure salary.

00:46:23.860 And someone who we basically said,

00:46:26.980 if they're not way smarter than us,

00:46:28.920 we shouldn't be hiring them.

00:46:30.560 And what are they leading?

00:46:32.740 So this is actually one of the interesting things

00:46:36.940 that came up with me and Rob, is initially Rob had said,

00:46:40.680 well, I want a COO.

00:46:42.940 And my definition of what a COO is is-

00:46:45.300 So you guys did make that hire.

00:46:46.580 We made that hire about three days ago.

00:46:48.260 Congrats, man.

00:46:48.500 Yeah.

00:46:48.880 It's crazy.

00:46:51.040 It's crazy that that person is working in the company.

00:46:56.220 Yeah.

00:46:56.760 Because they could work anywhere?

00:46:59.080 Oh, she was working somewhere else. 0.94

00:47:03.100 She had four other offers, right?

00:47:04.500 And it's just sort of like, okay, that's super cool that you're working with us.

00:47:08.640 I'm really nervous.

00:47:09.900 Are you worried that you're going to mess it up?

00:47:11.560 I'm worried that I'm going to mess it up, yeah.

00:47:13.760 And I'm also worried that between the two of us, Rob is super sort of micromanager,

00:47:22.560 and I'm the polar opposite.

00:47:24.640 Whenever you talk to employees in the company that talk about the differences,

00:47:27.900 between us it's like well you can never get a hold of liam liam just says well here are your numbers

00:47:32.700 uh hit them or don't um that's your job and then rob is the polar opposite like okay let's work

00:47:40.300 this down how can i show me every single day show me what you're doing show me how i can make those

00:47:44.780 corrections that kind of thing and those are two very different people and and i'm i'm concerned

00:47:51.420 if we've purchased basically a lamborghini we got to let that thing go right like we got to just

00:47:56.620 Just let that woman execute and go in that direction. 1.00

00:48:01.460 And this is actually one of the things that I told Rob. 0.96

00:48:03.040 I said, if we're going to hire this person,

00:48:05.820 you delegate a responsibility to that person.

00:48:07.800 Yeah, do you really want to see?

00:48:08.640 I remember that conversation we had at the restaurant.

00:48:10.800 Yeah.

00:48:11.100 Like, are you going to let this person do their job?

00:48:13.720 That's it.

00:48:14.740 And that's something that up until right now,

00:48:18.600 I'm still not convinced that he has the capability to do.

00:48:22.640 Yeah.

00:48:22.820 to get really deep and down, dirty about it.

00:48:27.060 Yeah, I mean, like, that's something.

00:48:28.560 It's a real thing, and the challenge there

00:48:31.660 is going to be that if there's an expectation that I want

00:48:38.080 to see results quickly in the COO role,

00:48:40.500 especially at your guys' scale, it's

00:48:41.720 going to be tough for them to have

00:48:43.220 a significant impact in the short term

00:48:44.720 for it to start building that trust.

00:48:46.500 But at the same time, if I'm that COO,

00:48:49.980 my job in the first few months is not

00:48:52.040 to do anything drastic.

00:48:53.540 It's to understand the landscape.

00:48:55.140 It's to earn the trust and through earning that trust,

00:49:01.800 allow the founders, Rob, to be comfortable

00:49:06.540 with abdicating or like, you know.

00:49:10.800 Delegating responsibility and really letting that happen.

00:49:13.400 And letting it happen.

00:49:14.380 So it's, you know, and I think it's

00:49:17.220 important that there's at least a time commitment,

00:49:20.740 you know, six months, a year, just

00:49:22.120 to give the person space to breathe.

00:49:24.280 Because if you hold them on a short leash

00:49:25.860 and say, like, because you're spending real money,

00:49:29.800 I've seen too many people make the mistake of, you know,

00:49:33.280 in and out within three months.

00:49:35.180 They didn't, there was no, the person wasn't even

00:49:38.920 given a chance to make it work.

00:49:41.420 But you should know.

00:49:42.280 Like, I also had a friend that hired somebody,

00:49:44.560 and he was having an issue with them.

00:49:46.120 And I said, well, let me talk to him.

00:49:47.440 I got on the phone, I said, you got to let him go. 0.99

00:49:48.940 The guy's ridiculous. 0.99

00:49:49.960 Like, he doesn't know what he's doing. 0.99

00:49:51.500 Like, I asked him basic questions, and he was the COO,

00:49:53.880 and he couldn't answer them.

00:49:54.720 Like, he's got to go.

00:49:55.740 That's different than, hey, you obviously interviewed them.

00:49:59.180 They're really good.

00:50:00.940 Let's make sure we give them the ability to win.

00:50:04.340 Yeah.

00:50:05.360 I think that this woman has this capability for me.

00:50:09.480 And this is another interesting way in the way that the difference is in the way we work.

00:50:13.080 Rob really studies people deeply.

00:50:14.820 and I say, I don't want to talk to anybody

00:50:17.900 unless they've built an eight-figure business

00:50:21.040 or sat on the executive board

00:50:23.000 of a few eight-figure software companies.

00:50:24.940 Yeah, because that's where you're coming.

00:50:25.780 They're the only people I want to talk to.

00:50:27.040 Yeah, I'm going there.

00:50:27.880 I only want to talk to people who've been there.

00:50:29.260 And then Rob's bringing up a bunch of other people

00:50:31.240 that are like, oh, well, this guy could be awesome

00:50:33.020 and this guy could be awesome.

00:50:33.900 And for me, it's just like,

00:50:35.120 I really create these weird mental rules in my mind,

00:50:38.780 which is, well, if they're not this.

00:50:40.540 Well, they're pattern recognition, too.

00:50:41.640 You've probably had success in the past

00:50:43.000 by finding those people, getting advice from people

00:50:45.520 that have been there, and it just seems to be better advice.

00:50:47.360 Smarter than me.

00:50:47.860 Yeah.

00:50:48.280 Smarter than me.

00:50:49.060 Yeah, like this is a thing that I'm not sure,

00:50:51.800 because I don't see the day-to-day between you and Rob,

00:50:53.860 and I've only met Mick and a few other people on your team.

00:50:59.120 We need to continue.

00:51:00.040 And this is the thing I've seen consistently

00:51:02.200 across my fastest growing companies,

00:51:03.960 is they always hire people that make them worried

00:51:07.660 that they're going to figure out that they're not as smart

00:51:09.900 as the people they hired.

00:51:10.860 Like they are way smarter.

00:51:12.380 Oh, OK.

00:51:14.260 Yeah.

00:51:14.800 So the first thing, I mean, with the short list

00:51:17.380 that I had spoken to, I told all three of them,

00:51:21.620 your job is to be my boss, eventually.

00:51:25.340 My goal for you is I want you to tell me,

00:51:29.780 like you point me in the right direction of what

00:51:32.060 you need me to do, and then let's execute on that.

00:51:36.140 Rob's a really smart guy.

00:51:37.920 Rob's smarter than me, for sure.

00:51:41.440 But sometimes a really smart guy can't actually pause and say to himself, well, you know, maybe this person is smarter than me.

00:51:50.480 So that's one of the challenges that I think we have.

00:51:52.760 I would love to be able to know, too, for you, like out of looking at all these entrepreneurs, if you had to boil it down to like top three things or one thing, what would you say it is in terms of founding teams and their success?

00:52:09.780 Do you see any pattern recognition there?

00:52:11.280 100%.

00:52:11.780 Yeah.

00:52:12.720 I would say, one, the diversity, right?

00:52:16.720 Toby used the word neurodiversity.

00:52:19.860 I thought that was pretty freaking nerdy.

00:52:21.900 I was like, do you say more? 0.96

00:52:23.440 Nerd.

00:52:23.940 Yeah, so everybody's got to go listen to that episode

00:52:25.560 where I interviewed Toby at Shopify.

00:52:29.140 But you see this amongst all, like the ones that

00:52:32.340 took a while to finally get Escape Velocity.

00:52:34.320 That's why I called this show Escape Velocity.

00:52:37.320 The founding team are too similar.

00:52:40.600 And so neurodiversity, I think, about different perspectives

00:52:44.780 because it allows people to solve problems.

00:52:46.200 Check the box.

00:52:46.740 I got that.

00:52:49.240 A lot of it comes down to just product market fit.

00:52:51.440 I mean, you can't escape the fact that if you got lightning

00:52:54.740 in the bottle, you just could be smart enough

00:52:55.820 to put the cap on.

00:52:56.880 Yeah.

00:52:57.580 I mean, that's one of those things that-

00:52:58.700 I feel bad when people are like, how did David from David

00:53:03.120 Letko from Deal Machine, 110K in MRR, 800K in 11 months.

00:53:07.720 Like, everybody wish, how did he do that?

00:53:10.160 And I'm like, well, he had a great product market fit.

00:53:12.840 But I will say the technical debt part is the other thing

00:53:15.200 that you mentioned.

00:53:16.040 I think that the companies that grew the fastest

00:53:19.340 had the technical leadership to make sure

00:53:22.760 that they were paying down the code debt.

00:53:24.980 That's two.

00:53:26.060 Because I've seen you guys had an outage,

00:53:28.680 but I've seen many other companies

00:53:31.280 get clobbered by competition that came out

00:53:34.040 that were after them.

00:53:35.300 But because they were able to move faster

00:53:37.220 and build features faster, they ate the market.

00:53:41.420 We've been seeing, I mean, for us,

00:53:43.580 one-week integrations now versus three-month integrations.

00:53:47.480 Exactly.

00:53:47.860 Just little things like that.

00:53:49.280 And just I think it's cool in the early days

00:53:51.740 of having somebody on Upwork build your first MVP.

00:53:54.280 But at a certain point, you've got

00:53:55.280 to bring the development in-house.

00:53:56.900 So I still have clients that don't

00:53:58.400 have their core development in-house.

00:53:59.900 And that's one of the big things that I'm bringing down.

00:54:02.780 And then I would say the third thing

00:54:04.280 they figure out sooner than later

00:54:05.600 is their pricing, packaging, and plans.

00:54:08.100 So most founders aren't optimizing pricing

00:54:11.340 and packages soon enough to, do these resonate with you?

00:54:15.420 Well, no, I mean, we haven't touched on pricing in eight

00:54:17.660 years, which you had mentioned.

00:54:19.360 Did you say eight years?

00:54:20.140 Eight years.

00:54:20.600 OK.

00:54:21.100 And that was actually one of the conversations

00:54:23.300 that I had with Rob.

00:54:24.540 At the last event because of Patrick's talk?

00:54:26.840 But more importantly, with this new hire,

00:54:30.160 I said, well, if this new hire wants to change pricing,

00:54:32.640 are you going to let them?

00:54:33.260 Are you going to let them?

00:54:34.720 And he has this very Australian way

00:54:37.680 of kind of pulling the conversation away from that.

00:54:41.260 And then I just like, because I know him so well,

00:54:44.860 I smack him right back in the face.

00:54:46.560 And I'm like, no, if we're hiring this person,

00:54:51.940 then they need to be able to move in these directions.

00:54:56.020 And one of those would be changing the pricing.

00:54:59.720 One of the things, just funnily enough,

00:55:01.780 When we did our entire refactoring, we had our new code base on staff.com, which is our other URL, and our old code base on Time Doctor.

00:55:11.660 So then we actually moved it over to the Time Doctor URL.

00:55:15.000 But one of the things that we didn't do is on Time Doctor, the first seat is free, which we call the administration seat.

00:55:24.420 So basically the business owner's seat is always free, and then the first person you manage is a paid seat.

00:55:31.780 we didn't remember to add in that feature in the new build.

00:55:37.420 So it was just paid right off the bat?

00:55:39.280 So the owner's seat was paid, and it converted at the same rate.

00:55:44.420 Dramatically different economics.

00:55:45.480 We were looking at the numbers, and we're like,

00:55:47.140 OK, so we're getting the same amount of conversion points,

00:55:48.940 but for some reason we're generating 20% more revenue

00:55:51.280 from this group than from this group.

00:55:53.140 And we're just slicing the numbers 20 different ways.

00:55:56.480 It's like, what's going on?

00:55:57.300 And then we figured it out, which was, oh, well,

00:56:00.600 the owner's seat is paid so right out of the bat they're paying an extra 10 bucks per month

00:56:07.100 and and then i i the fight with me was well we should not be changing this back right and say

00:56:16.440 well we have we have almost 10 000 customers on time doctor uh you know they'd be super angry if

00:56:22.720 we ended up making that change i was like no this sounds like a great change because it's like we're

00:56:27.380 seeing that with the new cohort let's apply that um to everyone else yeah so those are changes that

00:56:34.000 i hope we'll make you know in the next couple months but it's it's an interesting challenge

00:56:38.400 um dealing with at the end of the day it just boils down to like

00:56:43.760 you're right product product is something i can't change at this point like we're set this is the

00:56:49.080 product that we have and this is the direction that we're going problem you're solving yeah

00:56:52.080 uh problem that we're solving but then after that it's just like human dynamics leadership

00:56:56.860 pricing. Liam,

00:56:59.280 if somebody wants to reach out,

00:57:01.320 where should people find you?

00:57:03.880 timedoctor.com

00:57:04.800 if you want to try out Time Doctor.

00:57:06.800 And I don't

00:57:09.100 answer the vast majority of my

00:57:11.280 social media, but

00:57:12.960 the only place that

00:57:14.800 you will

00:57:16.800 get a response from me in a couple hours is

00:57:19.100 YouTube. Okay. So I actually

00:57:21.080 think YouTube is the most honest form of social

00:57:23.040 media ever. I've replied to all my own

00:57:25.160 comments. Most people don't know that. They're like, I need you as a mentor. I'm like, just

00:57:28.500 post a comment on my video. Right. So youtube.com slash running remote. And if you can't afford to

00:57:34.500 go to running remote, all the talks are up there for free. Check them out. Yep. We appreciate you,

00:57:39.240 man. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Thanks for watching this episode of Escape

00:57:43.740 Velocity. Be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment with your biggest insight from

00:57:48.680 our conversation. Be sure to check out the next episode.

00:57:55.160 Thank you.

Dan Martell - January 14, 2021

How To Scale a Remote Business with Liam Martin @ Time Doctor - Escape Velocity Show #45

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