Dan Martell - Mistakes To Avoid on Product Demos with Steli @ Close.com

00:00:00.200 We have had a never-ending one-hour weekly conversation

00:00:05.520 for four and a half years since that moment.

00:00:07.840 Admission sequence start.

00:00:09.960 Three, two, one.

00:00:21.160 Steli, what's up, my man?

00:00:22.360 My man.

00:00:23.040 Hey, thanks for coming on.

00:00:25.680 Startup chat.

00:00:27.040 I want to start off by acknowledging, in fact,

00:00:28.920 I think it's 457 episodes of consistency with Heaton.

00:00:34.360 Yes.

00:00:35.280 Dude, that's rare.

00:00:36.320 I mean, and I think somebody said in the podcast game,

00:00:38.680 if you do more than seven, the average is like seven.

00:00:42.220 So the fact that you're at four, I think,

00:00:44.340 is it four something?

00:00:45.480 It is about 450.

00:00:46.940 I don't even know.

00:00:47.480 Yeah, I think it's 457.

00:00:48.560 I checked it out three days ago you published.

00:00:50.780 And that's really cool.

00:00:52.740 I'm more impressed, I think, with Heaton.

00:00:54.220 I've never seen this.

00:00:56.100 Hey, man, I love you, man.

00:00:58.860 But what have you learned about that journey

00:01:01.240 of just producing content, having those conversations?

00:01:04.180 How has it impacted you as a founder of Close?

00:01:07.380 And congrats on the domain.

00:01:08.400 I've already, I think I sent you an email and I saw that.

00:01:11.300 How has it impacted just your thinking?

00:01:14.640 Yeah, it's been one of the most interesting experiments

00:01:19.220 out of everything that I've ever done in content.

00:01:21.680 So to give you a little bit of background

00:01:23.380 on how we got to doing a podcast together,

00:01:27.780 I was thinking about doing a podcast for a couple of months.

00:01:32.140 And I don't know, maybe I was a bit like, at that time,

00:01:34.700 a bit burned out on myself.

00:01:36.460 I was like, I'm doing all these YouTube videos.

00:01:38.360 I'm doing all these blog posts.

00:01:39.680 I'm doing all these talks.

00:01:41.500 E-books?

00:01:42.080 E-books back then?

00:01:42.660 E-books, lots of e-books.

00:01:43.860 And I was like, do I really want to do a podcast

00:01:46.900 on top of all this that's kind of very much centered around me?

00:01:50.940 I was like, I'm kind of no.

00:01:53.340 Like, I want to play with podcasting,

00:01:55.520 because I find it to be an incredible medium.

00:01:57.500 and I'm very interested in it,

00:01:58.940 but I don't want to commit to another thing

00:02:01.000 that has me at the center of it.

00:02:03.900 And I have to carry the entire format.

00:02:06.620 So I was thinking it would be fun

00:02:08.380 to do this with somebody else.

00:02:10.220 And so I was thinking about it kind of very loosely,

00:02:14.020 like, oh, if I ever meet somebody

00:02:15.460 or find somebody that I think I'd be excited

00:02:17.420 to do this with, I'll try it.

00:02:18.940 But until then, I don't want to do a podcast.

00:02:21.100 And then I met Teaton.

00:02:22.860 I mean, I'd known about him for a long time,

00:02:25.620 But I met him once at a, we spoke at a panel together

00:02:30.120 at a conference in San Francisco.

00:02:32.080 And I sit next to him.

00:02:33.740 The session is already going on.

00:02:35.460 It's like everybody's quiet.

00:02:36.800 And I'm trying to make eye contact with him.

00:02:38.420 I'm trying to be like, hey, Heaton,

00:02:40.680 we're doing this panel together.

00:02:42.240 And he sits next to me, and he's just ignoring me.

00:02:44.140 He's just on his phone.

00:02:45.600 And you know when you look at somebody for such a long time

00:02:48.600 that you think it's impossible this person is not

00:02:50.680 recognizing I'm looking.

00:02:51.840 I'm sitting next to him looking at him.

00:02:53.580 Yeah, you feel me.

00:02:54.400 Yeah, you feel me, you cannot not see me.

00:02:57.380 And he was just not responding to that.

00:02:59.180 And I'm like, oh.

00:03:00.560 He's just that guy.

00:03:01.420 He's just that.

00:03:02.160 He's not as fun and as nice in person as I thought.

00:03:06.000 I'm like, oh, a little bit kind of disappointed by that,

00:03:07.880 bummed out by that.

00:03:09.180 And then we get on the panel, and the first.

00:03:11.140 Was he writing you a love letter or something?

00:03:13.200 No.

00:03:13.700 No?

00:03:14.200 No, not at first.

00:03:15.160 No, no, he was like busy tweeting the event.

00:03:16.960 OK, he wasn't.

00:03:17.580 OK.

00:03:18.120 No, no, no.

00:03:19.000 And he swears he did not notice me, right?

00:03:21.820 He was like super in the zone.

00:03:23.560 and the first question that is asked

00:03:26.440 is something around sales.

00:03:27.760 And he was like, I'm gonna take this question.

00:03:30.560 You know, I know what Steli would say here

00:03:33.260 because I'm a big fan of Steli's.

00:03:34.700 I've read all his blog posts.

00:03:35.940 He knows the most about sales out of anybody on the web.

00:03:38.560 And here's, I read the recent article on this topic

00:03:41.140 and here's what he's gonna say.

00:03:41.980 Steli, am I right?

00:03:42.820 I'm like, what?

00:03:44.140 And you didn't even know if he knew you?

00:03:45.700 No, I didn't know if he knew me.

00:03:47.040 Wow.

00:03:47.880 I didn't know.

00:03:48.940 And he read your stuff.

00:03:50.620 Yeah, and he gave me, like, massive kind of E, you know.

00:03:53.840 Gave me tons of credibility right off the bat

00:03:56.980 and, like, pushing me up, basically, in front of the room.

00:04:00.320 And afterwards, we chit-chatted a little bit,

00:04:01.920 and that was that.

00:04:02.420 I was like, oh, he is nice.

00:04:03.700 You know, he was particularly nice to me, and it was fun.

00:04:06.080 I mean, yeah, he's a good dude.

00:04:07.240 I mean, he's a great dude.

00:04:08.620 And then two weeks later, we had another conference.

00:04:11.440 And there, we had already known from that first encounter

00:04:14.440 that we liked each other and we wanted to hang out.

00:04:16.740 So we ended up two days being inseparable.

00:04:19.040 We just, you know, he was supposed to do a website

00:04:22.440 teardown on stage.

00:04:23.060 She's like, I don't want to do it alone, silly.

00:04:24.740 Do it with me.

00:04:25.460 Let's do it together.

00:04:26.640 So he invited me on stage.

00:04:28.200 We did like Q&A sessions together.

00:04:29.700 We basically spent two days together.

00:04:31.680 Yes, conference, you know, buds on lovebirds.

00:04:37.160 And afterwards, he's like, let's grab coffee.

00:04:38.900 I can't get enough of chatting with you.

00:04:40.080 You're so much fun.

00:04:40.880 And then we had coffee.

00:04:42.000 And at that coffee where we had like a one-on-one meetup

00:04:45.980 for the first time, I told him, you know what?

00:04:48.080 I really feel like we have great chemistry.

00:04:50.300 We should do a podcast together.

00:04:51.840 And he's like, in typical heat and fashion,

00:04:53.960 he was like, sure, whatever you want.

00:04:56.000 Sure, whatever you want.

00:04:57.100 And I'm like, all right.

00:04:58.760 But this was a proposal to do a podcast together

00:05:02.000 or one episode?

00:05:03.800 Well, I didn't really explain it.

00:05:06.100 In my mind, it was to start a podcast together,

00:05:08.660 not to interview him.

00:05:09.580 OK.

00:05:10.080 I don't know what he understood in the beginning,

00:05:11.780 but because I just said, hey, we should do a podcast together.

00:05:14.240 I'd love to do a podcast with you.

00:05:15.920 And he said, sure, whatever you want.

00:05:17.420 And I was like, do you, should we do one today?

00:05:20.580 I have my laptop with me, we can just record one.

00:05:23.260 He's like, sure, whatever you want.

00:05:25.520 And then I thought, all right, so let's think about it.

00:05:28.660 What's the name of it, what is the format,

00:05:30.920 what do we want to talk about?

00:05:32.500 And Heaton stops me and says, well,

00:05:34.340 that should be our first episode.

00:05:35.780 Let's just record and try to figure out

00:05:37.860 what it is we do, what it's called,

00:05:40.060 and why we're doing it, right?

00:05:41.920 And that is the very first episode.

00:05:43.360 Is it the first episode?

00:05:44.200 Yes, it's the very first episode.

00:05:46.480 That first episode was recorded like 40 minutes

00:05:49.240 after we met for coffee, and I proposed

00:05:50.860 to be doing a podcast.

00:05:52.460 Dude, that's a crazy story.

00:05:54.040 It is.

00:05:54.940 It is, and if you think about it, this is now, what,

00:05:57.080 I think four and a half years ago or something.

00:05:59.460 We have had a never-ending one-hour weekly conversation

00:06:04.800 for four and a half years since that moment.

00:06:08.000 So it's been amazing.

00:06:10.100 And it's been with lots of highs and lows, right?

00:06:12.640 I think to summarize the experience

00:06:14.780 and some tidbits for people.

00:06:17.320 So one, it's created.

00:06:19.720 One of the reasons I wanted to do this

00:06:21.140 is because I wanted more heat in my life.

00:06:23.600 I instantly.

00:06:24.460 Totally agree.

00:06:26.020 This is a guy that I love to talk with.

00:06:27.920 I need more of that.

00:06:29.060 Exactly.

00:06:29.680 I love the way this person thinks.

00:06:31.700 He thinks very differently in some ways that I do,

00:06:33.560 but we're very aligned in many areas.

00:06:34.980 I've said this to him and many other people.

00:06:36.280 He's one of the few people that I actively seek

00:06:39.600 and am open to the feedback.

00:06:41.760 There's very few people that, A, have the permission, really,

00:06:45.520 to criticize me without being prompted,

00:06:47.380 which Heaton has no problem doing,

00:06:49.720 but definitely can push thinking, right?

00:06:52.740 Yeah.

00:06:53.500 And so without the podcast, we would have seen each other

00:06:57.340 maybe twice in those four years, right?

00:06:58.800 We're all busy.

00:06:59.780 So it has become this medium that

00:07:01.840 has turned our kind of loose friendship

00:07:04.280 into a very close friendship, like very, very, very close

00:07:06.840 friends.

00:07:09.360 So that's one personal benefit I've gotten from it.

00:07:11.740 And it has helped me.

00:07:13.560 It has provided this incredible sparring partner

00:07:16.200 that's outside my business that really

00:07:18.120 knows me incredibly well, knows my business really well.

00:07:21.000 And when did Clothes start?

00:07:22.660 We started, we launched Clothes in January 2013.

00:07:25.440 So that would have been going at the time.

00:07:27.540 Yeah, it was going at the time.

00:07:28.540 OK.

00:07:28.840 It was maybe the first year, the second year,

00:07:30.600 or something along those lines.

00:07:31.420 Something between 12 to 18 months or something.

00:07:33.520 And were you producing content prior to that,

00:07:35.220 when you were doing more of the agency type stuff?

00:07:38.060 We did, when we did elastic sales, which

00:07:40.300 was kind of the outsourced sales agency, sales outsourcing.

00:07:44.680 We did content, but it was mostly guest posts.

00:07:49.400 So I would write guest posts for TechCrunch, for Mashable,

00:07:52.140 for all these different blogs.

00:07:52.940 But there was still thought leadership.

00:07:53.560 You might have came across that.

00:07:54.860 Yeah.

00:07:56.360 And then when we launched Close, we really focused on blogging.

00:08:00.240 And I started really producing a lot of YouTube videos

00:08:02.500 or creating a lot of YouTube videos.

00:08:03.940 We didn't really produce much.

00:08:06.140 And he saw that stuff.

00:08:06.940 Most of those had like 50 bottles of booze.

00:08:09.460 In the background.

00:08:10.300 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:11.120 I remember, like, I was like, who is this guy?

00:08:13.460 Just, it's like in your condo.

00:08:15.860 To be fair, that was the office apartment.

00:08:19.320 One of my co-founders, who was technical,

00:08:21.880 was really into mixology at the time.

00:08:24.340 So he was super into bartending, cocktail mix.

00:08:26.320 This was all his.

00:08:27.200 He set it up in the kitchen.

00:08:28.480 And for a while, he would, like, in the afternoon,

00:08:29.980 always experiment with some cocktails and stuff.

00:08:31.820 But everybody was like, all these drinks, all that alcohol.

00:08:35.620 Typical sales dude.

00:08:36.880 Yeah.

00:08:38.460 So it stood out.

00:08:39.120 But so it helped me build a very close relationship that

00:08:46.500 hasn't just benefited me in my personal life,

00:08:48.060 but also has helped with the business.

00:08:49.860 He's been a de facto advisor of ours, just like I, at times,

00:08:54.540 am advising him.

00:08:55.440 But we have both the benefit of having lots and lots

00:08:59.500 of distance.

00:09:00.480 We don't have equity or shares or any formal relationship

00:09:02.980 with our companies.

00:09:04.180 But we know each other so well and each other's businesses

00:09:06.540 so well since we've been there from day one.

00:09:09.300 And we always get the behind the scene,

00:09:10.980 like this is what's going on right now with us,

00:09:13.440 that we've been able to be really helpful to each other.

00:09:16.200 On top of that, I think the medium of podcasting,

00:09:23.340 the thing that I love most about it

00:09:24.600 is that it is the most intimate relationship I have

00:09:27.300 with any of my audiences.

00:09:29.560 So people, I mean, you know this much more than I do even,

00:09:32.760 but people come up to me many, many times

00:09:35.580 at many different areas, especially at conferences

00:09:38.320 and events, but also just in my inbox, sending me emails.

00:09:41.620 People say a lot of nice things to me.

00:09:43.520 I've seen it, man.

00:09:44.220 It's awesome.

00:09:45.360 And it's always great, and I always appreciate that.

00:09:47.920 And people tell me the impact I had on their business

00:09:50.020 or how I helped them with something,

00:09:51.300 and that's always incredible.

00:09:52.780 But nobody responds as strongly as the podcast listeners,

00:09:58.220 because they have literally some of them

00:10:00.740 have been listening to me and Heaton

00:10:02.520 talk for years now.

00:10:04.100 they've developed real habits around the podcast.

00:10:06.500 Like, they always listen to it on the drive somewhere,

00:10:09.140 when they work out.

00:10:09.920 Yeah, it's anchored.

00:10:10.820 It's anchored into their lives.

00:10:12.320 And it's so intimate because you listen to somebody's voice.

00:10:14.940 Yeah, you're not distracted.

00:10:16.200 It's not like you hit play on a YouTube video

00:10:17.280 and they'll go to your email.

00:10:18.860 I find that even if I watch the same content,

00:10:22.160 so it's a YouTube video of somebody speaking

00:10:23.860 versus me just listening to their voice speaking.

00:10:26.100 Because it's much closer, much more intimate,

00:10:28.260 because there's no visual stimulation.

00:10:29.720 You're filling in the blanks in your own mind.

00:10:30.880 It's very personal.

00:10:31.820 It's almost like having that voice in your own head.

00:10:34.520 It's as close as it can be.

00:10:36.280 And so people just respond much stronger.

00:10:40.000 There's a much stronger connection to the podcast

00:10:42.560 audience.

00:10:43.100 And the podcast audience that we have,

00:10:44.280 it's as much smaller audience that we have on our blog.

00:10:47.060 We have much larger reach of just pure traffic that gets

00:10:49.580 to our blog.

00:10:50.080 The closed blog?

00:10:50.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:10:51.500 We've got a ton of traffic on that.

00:10:53.000 The podcast doesn't get as much, it

00:10:54.740 doesn't have as wide of a reach, but much higher quality

00:10:58.320 and much deeper.

00:10:59.040 So the type of people that listen to the podcast

00:11:01.180 always surprises me.

00:11:03.060 Just recently, we were looking to hire a director of marketing.

00:11:06.420 And so I was emailing CMOs and VPs of marketing

00:11:09.520 of really, really big billion-dollar SaaS companies,

00:11:12.420 all people I'd never talked to before, all out of the blue,

00:11:16.100 either cold emailing them or LinkedIn them and just saying,

00:11:18.420 hey, I'm looking to hire a person X.

00:11:20.740 I really admire what you've done in your organization.

00:11:22.940 Can I get 20 minutes to jump on a call, pick your brain?

00:11:25.620 And I think we had almost a 90% response rate.

00:11:29.380 And they knew your name.

00:11:30.680 They knew my name.

00:11:31.760 And I was surprised, more than half of them

00:11:34.500 were like, I'm a huge fan of the podcast.

00:11:35.920 I'm like, really?

00:11:36.440 That's wicked.

00:11:37.220 Yeah, I'm like, really?

00:11:37.880 You listen to the podcast?

00:11:39.560 They're like, well, not forever, but I've

00:11:40.820 been listening for a month and two,

00:11:42.920 and I've been recommending it.

00:11:43.980 And it's just like, I really loved everything I heard,

00:11:46.280 and it really stuck with me.

00:11:48.160 So the quality of the audience is really, really good.

00:11:51.060 But it's been a roller coaster.

00:11:52.080 Consistency is very tough.

00:11:53.400 So tough, man.

00:11:54.160 I'm three and a half years every Monday.

00:11:56.180 Haven't missed a Monday, won't miss a Monday.

00:11:58.040 I've given myself a 10-year focus.

00:12:00.300 Yeah.

00:12:00.800 It's just you got to find the time.

00:12:02.300 So you're traveling a lot.

00:12:03.000 It's like, shit, when do we batch this stuff up?

00:12:04.740 When do we get it done?

00:12:05.520 Yeah, it's hard.

00:12:06.780 And for us, for Eaton and I, the first.

00:12:09.060 Because that one hour is when you guys shoot five episodes?

00:12:11.640 We do one hour a week.

00:12:15.480 Is it in person always?

00:12:16.620 No, it's never in person.

00:12:17.700 OK, it's always through.

00:12:18.960 It's always recorded through Zoom now, right?

00:12:21.760 It used to be in person.

00:12:22.640 It was much more fun when it was.

00:12:23.640 I'll tell you, man, you inspired this right here.

00:12:25.920 Really?

00:12:26.460 Yeah, because when you told me that,

00:12:27.720 I think it was last year, maybe at this event,

00:12:30.040 you talked about the intimacy of audio.

00:12:32.920 And I've always ripped my YouTube content

00:12:35.440 and put it as a podcast, because people want to consume it

00:12:38.020 on the go.

00:12:39.100 But then I thought, how would that change if I could get,

00:12:42.640 again, you and Heaton's dynamic, all the smart people I know,

00:12:47.320 and record high quality.

00:12:49.280 I mean, you know?

00:12:50.560 Yeah, you guys.

00:12:51.460 Yeah, because just that intimacy, if it's there.

00:12:58.180 So we'll see the impact.

00:12:59.320 It's been months, but not years.

00:13:02.440 But yeah, you definitely were a part of this, so.

00:13:04.380 That's awesome to hear.

00:13:05.260 Yeah, I think the first year, year and a half, it was easy.

00:13:09.280 It was effortless.

00:13:10.320 We were just in love, right?

00:13:11.660 We had so much to talk about.

00:13:12.940 So much to talk about, yeah.

00:13:13.960 So much to talk about.

00:13:15.760 We would not even need, like we would jump on the call.

00:13:19.320 And then no prompt.

00:13:20.600 Yeah, and he would be like, give me,

00:13:22.560 like I would give one topic, he would give a topic,

00:13:25.140 I would give a topic.

00:13:26.140 Like we'd go back and forth, and we'd just be like,

00:13:28.820 How to create good landing pages.

00:13:30.000 All right, let's go.

00:13:30.580 Record.

00:13:31.200 Like, that was it.

00:13:32.240 No prep.

00:13:33.000 No prep whatsoever.

00:13:34.100 Now, that's almost still true to today.

00:13:36.420 But the dynamic has changed a lot.

00:13:38.400 So it used to be that we had so much to talk about.

00:13:40.420 We're so excited to hear each other speak, right?

00:13:42.800 To hear what we would say.

00:13:44.600 And then I think in year two, we got

00:13:46.940 into like a difficult territory, where at times it was really

00:13:49.920 like it was tough on us.

00:13:51.020 Spilled some outlines.

00:13:52.020 You know, we're like, well, what are we

00:13:53.720 going to talk about this week?

00:13:55.760 And then eventually, I kind of took over the responsibility

00:13:59.200 to be like, all right, it doesn't work as organically

00:14:01.880 anymore, where he just has a bunch of things

00:14:04.440 he wants to talk about, and I do.

00:14:06.140 So I'm going to be the one that's responsible to have

00:14:09.000 topics on the docket.

00:14:09.800 If we want to do something else, we do something else.

00:14:11.300 As you're reading some, you can just add something to the list.

00:14:13.260 Yeah, and then we created a spreadsheet.

00:14:15.280 And I would just literally, like the day before,

00:14:17.520 I would just put in three, four, five things.

00:14:19.540 Because I always follow him on Twitter.

00:14:20.960 I have so many things I talk about.

00:14:23.200 I would just keep it in mind and always add topics.

00:14:25.500 And then we would just pick a couple of them.

00:14:27.120 And again, we just go.

00:14:28.400 And that's still true to today.

00:14:31.180 So we don't do prep, but I make sure

00:14:33.300 that we have at least four topics in a spreadsheet

00:14:35.740 to talk about the day off.

00:14:37.500 When did you move to the Valley?

00:14:39.840 I moved to the Valley in 2007.

00:14:42.900 April 2007.

00:14:44.320 Crazy.

00:14:44.940 So I moved September 2008.

00:14:47.160 So we were both there for the economic disaster.

00:14:50.520 Which, I don't know, for me, it was great,

00:14:52.000 because then people are a lot more free.

00:14:54.540 They had time on their hands and weren't so busy.

00:14:57.840 But how did you kind of break into that network, right?

00:15:01.440 Because everybody has to do it.

00:15:02.540 We're not from there.

00:15:03.780 Yeah.

00:15:04.080 It is a bright, it's interesting.

00:15:07.300 It's very, there's a lot to connect to.

00:15:10.020 But it's also like there's a wall for people wasting time.

00:15:15.560 So you do need to essentially add value in advance.

00:15:18.580 You need to show, like I love the purity of like it's

00:15:21.820 about the idea, not what you say you're going to do,

00:15:24.640 but just show me.

00:15:25.480 Don't tell me about your product.

00:15:27.060 Show it to me.

00:15:28.540 How did you approach that when you moved there?

00:15:31.700 I had a bit of a tough time.

00:15:33.160 I think my first week was exceptional.

00:15:35.440 Then it was downhill from there.

00:15:37.140 It was like.

00:15:37.960 What did you do in that week?

00:15:39.060 In that week, I think I had the right approach.

00:15:41.600 I arrived in the Bay Area, and I was like, I need friends.

00:15:45.200 Where did you live prior?

00:15:47.160 Germany, Stuttgart.

00:15:49.060 So I sold everything I had.

00:15:50.020 I bought a one-way ticket.

00:15:50.860 I didn't have a visa.

00:15:52.580 My English was terrible.

00:15:53.860 And I didn't know anything about the Bay Area.

00:15:56.960 I didn't know anybody.

00:15:58.220 Everything I had done before were like brick and mortar,

00:16:01.300 bootstraps, small businesses.

00:16:02.860 I'd never done anything software.

00:16:04.520 I never raised money.

00:16:05.380 I really, I was as clueless as you can.

00:16:07.620 But it was full of piss and vinegar.

00:16:09.160 I was like, what I didn't have incompetence,

00:16:11.180 I had incompetence.

00:16:12.660 I was like, I'm going to take over Silicon Valley.

00:16:15.800 So I arrived, and I think.

00:16:17.220 Did you know you wanted to start a company?

00:16:18.800 Yeah, I moved to the Bay Area because

00:16:20.740 I wanted to start a tech company.

00:16:22.400 And I knew I knew nothing about tech.

00:16:24.640 And I knew that I wanted to leave Europe.

00:16:29.480 I was yearning for adventure.

00:16:31.280 I wanted to go either to Asia or to the US.

00:16:33.200 I was looking for a reason to leave.

00:16:34.860 And then I had this idea for a tech company.

00:16:36.500 I'm like, I know nothing about technology.

00:16:37.820 Nobody else does Silicon Valley.

00:16:39.340 It is the epicenter.

00:16:41.060 Fuck it, let's do it.

00:16:41.940 I'm going to make my own movie, selling everything I have,

00:16:44.860 arriving there with a backpack, and then making it all happen.

00:16:50.120 It sounded really cool in my mind.

00:16:52.040 I was very excited.

00:16:52.880 Very romantic idea.

00:16:53.680 Very romantic, very romantic.

00:16:56.220 And so here's, I think, here's one little story that really,

00:17:02.760 I think, kind of clarifies what I did right in the beginning

00:17:07.000 and then how I got off that bandwagon.

00:17:09.120 But the very first day I checked into the hotel,

00:17:13.280 I'd never traveled outside of Europe.

00:17:18.400 I've never been to the US.

00:17:19.900 And so I'm arriving in the Bay Area.

00:17:21.400 I'm checking to the hotel.

00:17:22.800 And I'm like, wow, this is it.

00:17:24.320 This is the hotel.

00:17:25.320 And then I'm like, well, let me set up my office

00:17:28.420 now in this hotel, right?

00:17:29.280 So whatever the hell I'm doing, I'm

00:17:30.600 putting in the two books, my laptop, whatever.

00:17:32.920 And then I sit there and go, there's jet lag I heard.

00:17:35.680 So maybe today I'll just chill here.

00:17:38.180 Let me just chill in this hotel room.

00:17:39.820 Seems to be safe.

00:17:41.000 Who knows, maybe I get tired.

00:17:42.000 You didn't even know a jet lag what?

00:17:42.900 I didn't know how it felt.

00:17:44.080 How's it going to feel?

00:17:45.340 When's it going to hit me?

00:17:46.260 I didn't know.

00:17:47.280 Right?

00:17:47.820 Sounds cute.

00:17:48.820 But, you know, I was like, oh, let me see.

00:17:50.660 And then there was a voice in my head, thankfully, that was like, what the hell are you talking about?

00:17:55.540 Like, you are here now.

00:17:57.400 It's 1 p.m.

00:17:58.420 Get the hell out of this room.

00:18:00.340 Like, nothing good will happen in this hotel room, right?

00:18:03.080 Go somewhere, meet somebody.

00:18:04.360 You need to get, you need friends, right?

00:18:07.440 And so I go online.

00:18:09.200 I go on, like, meetup.com or something.

00:18:11.000 And I'm like, what are events are happening today in San Francisco and Bay Area?

00:18:14.840 And I see there's a geek dinner or something like that.

00:18:18.820 And I go, all right, I'll go there.

00:18:20.580 There's like legit stuff going every night there.

00:18:22.900 Oh, every night, every night.

00:18:24.280 So I go to this geek dinner, and I sit down at this table,

00:18:30.400 and left next to me is Dave McClure,

00:18:34.360 who didn't want to have anything to do with me or talk

00:18:36.460 to me, understandably.

00:18:37.240 That's interesting.

00:18:37.940 It was on Eventbrite.

00:18:38.840 Was it one of his like finance for founder?

00:18:40.940 No, it wouldn't even been around there.

00:18:42.280 I think it was literally called a geek dinner or something.

00:18:45.500 It was like a group of 40 people random,

00:18:47.700 Like, I would say there were like five or six really.

00:18:50.080 And he just made it available public to anybody?

00:18:51.900 Yeah.

00:18:52.400 Well, you know what?

00:18:53.020 Back then, I cold called Dave because his email,

00:18:55.320 his phone number used to be on his blog.

00:18:56.460 It was not his event.

00:18:56.960 I don't even think it was his event.

00:18:58.360 No.

00:18:58.860 OK, it wasn't the geeks on the plane.

00:18:59.700 I don't know who was organizing it.

00:19:01.280 Got it.

00:19:01.580 But there was Robert Scoble.

00:19:02.960 There was Dave McClure.

00:19:04.000 And there was maybe one or two other big shots.

00:19:06.140 And then there's a bunch of randoms, like me.

00:19:07.580 Had you been reading TechCrunch and knew who Scoble was?

00:19:10.320 I knew who Scoble was.

00:19:11.600 So here's the story.

00:19:12.460 Here's the story.

00:19:13.620 So I try to, I'm literally like, I need to network, right?

00:19:17.640 This is my thinking, I didn't know who Dave McClure was.

00:19:21.640 I was like, this guy is showing some demo to some other guy.

00:19:25.260 And I'm trying to lean over and be like,

00:19:26.700 hey, can I also check this out?

00:19:28.000 And Dave is like, no.

00:19:28.960 And he continues this conversation.

00:19:30.560 I'm like, okay, that didn't work.

00:19:32.300 And then I talked to some other guy on the right

00:19:34.120 and he was really nice to me.

00:19:35.140 I'm like, we're chit chatting.

00:19:36.820 And eventually I'm telling that guy to the right next to me

00:19:39.980 that this is my first day in the US,

00:19:41.540 sold everything I had, bought a one way ticket,

00:19:43.200 don't know anybody.

00:19:44.040 And he's like, oh my God, it's such a cool story.

00:19:45.720 I love it.

00:19:46.480 he's like Robert Robert come over here and so Scoble goes comes over and he's like this dude

00:19:51.860 first day doesn't know anybody yada yada yada has a big dream came to the US and Robert's like oh my

00:19:56.840 god that's incredible chit chats with me a little bit and goes um all right what are you doing

00:20:01.600 tomorrow I'm like I don't know I don't have any plans he's like give me a call I'm like uh where

00:20:06.700 uh can I get your phone number and he's like he got offended the thing for a mini second there's

00:20:10.860 like it's on my blog my phone number is on my blog just call me I'm like oh okay next day I'm

00:20:16.240 calling him and I'm sweating. I'm super nervous. I don't know exactly what his plans are for me.

00:20:22.540 So I'm like, hey, Mr. Robot Scoble, you met me yesterday at this dinner. You told me to call

00:20:28.180 you. This is the call. And he's like, oh, cool. Which hotel are you seeing? And I'm like, Hotel

00:20:31.480 California in Palo Alto. He's like, oh, I don't know where that is. I'm going to be there in 10

00:20:34.660 minutes. I'm like, oh, okay. Goodbye, Mr. Scoble. I'm hanging up. I'm like, okay. So he comes,

00:20:41.960 picks me up we go to this coffee shop we buy some coffee we sit down and he's

00:20:47.660 like alright so tell me about you and I start talking it's like no no wait wait

00:20:50.780 wait it goes back to his car and he brings out there's this is pre iPhone

00:20:54.500 just to date people's minds puts together a massive camera setup mics me

00:21:00.560 up and he's like all right let's go and he proceeds to interview me for an hour

00:21:03.840 that interview still exists it is the most humbling

00:21:10.340 We've got to link up your first talk with Heaton

00:21:13.100 and that below.

00:21:14.520 Dude, I have a reminder.

00:21:16.740 Once a year, I watch that recording.

00:21:18.180 It takes me about seven hours to watch it,

00:21:20.360 because I have to pause all the time, because it's so cringy.

00:21:23.220 It's so bad.

00:21:24.520 I look so dumb in that video.

00:21:27.840 But it's a really good reminder.

00:21:29.800 It's a very good reminder.

00:21:31.560 That's not long.

00:21:32.380 I mean, 12 years.

00:21:33.840 Yeah, it's not that long ago.

00:21:35.060 You've done a lot.

00:21:36.000 It helps me to, because at times,

00:21:38.780 and you know how this is.

00:21:39.680 When you get overwhelmed with requests of your time and help,

00:21:43.280 you know, I do get judgy of people.

00:21:44.900 And sometimes when people approach me with a pitch that

00:21:46.760 seems not that thought through, or when they talk to me

00:21:49.540 in a way that doesn't seem like they have their shit together,

00:21:51.920 I judge them, right?

00:21:53.080 I do judge people.

00:21:54.020 Yeah, well, you got to protect your time.

00:21:56.060 Yeah.

00:21:56.560 But that video puts things in perspective.

00:21:59.600 It makes me go, well, I started somewhere, right?

00:22:01.760 And that was not that great of a place.

00:22:03.400 Anyway, so he interviews me for an hour.

00:22:05.720 And then at the end of the interview, he goes,

00:22:07.340 all right, what are your plans for the rest

00:22:09.380 of the day.

00:22:09.880 And I go, dude, I don't have plans for the rest of the year.

00:22:11.960 I don't know.

00:22:12.880 It's like, well, I'm speaking at this event in San Francisco.

00:22:15.300 Do you want to come with me?

00:22:16.880 And I go, yeah.

00:22:17.540 So Robert Scobo was very nice to me on that day.

00:22:19.720 He drives me, before we go to San Francisco,

00:22:21.540 he drives me to the original HPE garage, shows it to me.

00:22:25.160 Oh, shit.

00:22:25.660 He gives me a little Silicon Valley tour.

00:22:27.140 He's such a fan of tech, though.

00:22:29.200 I mean, incredible.

00:22:30.020 Yeah, such a big-hearted dude.

00:22:31.440 So we go to that event, SF New Tech.

00:22:34.280 He speaks to other people.

00:22:35.780 Miles?

00:22:36.280 Miles?

00:22:36.380 Yeah.

00:22:36.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:37.760 There's like three or four speakers.

00:22:39.040 There's, I would say, I don't know,

00:22:40.660 100 people maybe in the audience.

00:22:42.160 And at the end of the conference,

00:22:44.000 they had this thing called 30 Second Soapbox,

00:22:46.280 where you could get the mic and say,

00:22:48.040 we're raising money, yada, yada,

00:22:49.720 or we're hiring a developer.

00:22:51.600 Again, a voice in my head is like,

00:22:53.380 this day has been going so well so far.

00:22:55.640 Just shut the fuck up and don't ruin it, right?

00:22:58.100 Just don't do anything.

00:22:59.000 But then there's this other voice that's like-

00:23:00.320 Get on that soapbox.

00:23:01.240 Get on that soapbox.

00:23:02.600 Take the mic.

00:23:03.760 Make some more friends.

00:23:05.360 So I take the mic and I go, well,

00:23:07.600 This is my second day in America.

00:23:10.040 I don't know anybody.

00:23:11.080 I'm trying to make it happen here.

00:23:12.520 If you need a Greek friend, come and say hi.

00:23:14.800 The people are losing their mind.

00:23:16.360 I'm getting a standing ovation.

00:23:17.800 And the conference is over.

00:23:19.220 And there's like the three speakers

00:23:20.480 with a group of people around them and me drowning in people.

00:23:23.600 We all need Greek friends.

00:23:25.440 There were people that were waiting, waiting,

00:23:27.220 and eventually they were throwing their business card

00:23:29.320 at me and leaving.

00:23:30.160 I had like 60, 70 business cards.

00:23:33.760 And so I'm getting invited to a Dropbox event,

00:23:36.680 to a YC house party, to all these amazing people.

00:23:41.040 I didn't even know it at the time.

00:23:42.860 And I was joking with a friend back in Germany

00:23:46.880 when I was on a phone call with him.

00:23:48.860 I was like, at this rate, I'm going

00:23:50.180 to be best friends with Steve Jobs in three weeks.

00:23:52.680 Didn't happen.

00:23:53.680 I'm like, I feel bad for anybody thinking they could easily

00:23:56.960 replicate all this magic.

00:23:58.160 No, no.

00:23:58.960 And I couldn't even sustain it.

00:24:01.220 The first two weeks were incredible.

00:24:03.460 And then I think I snapped into a fear creeped up on me.

00:24:07.600 And I was like, wait a second.

00:24:09.160 It's been two weeks.

00:24:09.880 Like imposter syndrome?

00:24:10.840 No, no, it was not that.

00:24:12.200 It was more of a, it's been two weeks.

00:24:14.080 I'm meeting all these people, but I'm not getting anything done.

00:24:16.420 I still am at a hotel.

00:24:17.860 I need an apartment.

00:24:18.940 I still haven't found my co-founder.

00:24:20.320 I still haven't done it.

00:24:21.640 And so I closed off and was like, all right, no more meetings,

00:24:26.520 no more people.

00:24:27.100 I need to focus.

00:24:29.320 I proceeded to do a startup for five years that

00:24:32.700 was a soul-crushing failure and defeat.

00:24:34.440 It didn't work out.

00:24:35.340 And what was that one?

00:24:36.420 It was called Super Cool School.

00:24:38.880 That's the name.

00:24:40.500 It was an online education platform.

00:24:41.920 It was kind of like web 2.0 era.

00:24:44.300 Wikipedia is like the library of the world.

00:24:46.500 YouTube is the TV network of the world.

00:24:48.600 So I was like, I want to create a place

00:24:50.800 where people can teach and study from each other for free

00:24:52.680 and kind of create a different paradigm

00:24:54.260 for educational learning.

00:24:55.540 Cool, like a free Udemy.

00:24:57.000 Yes, but so it was very early, and I did not

00:25:01.080 know anything about anything.

00:25:03.380 So I proceeded to make all the mistakes in the book.

00:25:07.100 I made them all 100 times.

00:25:08.820 I had a very difficult time.

00:25:09.780 I think I learned very slowly in those years.

00:25:12.060 How many co-founders did you go through?

00:25:13.680 I didn't go through any co-founders.

00:25:14.840 You didn't get a co-founder?

00:25:15.840 No, I hired a bunch of developers,

00:25:17.700 but I was always very afraid of making somebody.

00:25:20.580 Well, that's not true.

00:25:21.520 It was one person in the very early days

00:25:22.920 that I was like, you could be my co-founder

00:25:24.660 if we get to some agreement.

00:25:26.460 And then that guy, who's a good friend of mine today still,

00:25:30.500 was a bit scared of first startup.

00:25:31.800 He was just from Australia backpacking.

00:25:33.840 And he's like, well, if I get equity,

00:25:36.800 there's going to be vesting, so it's

00:25:38.040 going to take like four years for me to own all my equity.

00:25:40.120 And that was kind of the, no, I'm out.

00:25:44.380 So I ended up hiring a bunch of developers and building a team,

00:25:46.880 but nobody was really a co-founder.

00:25:48.600 How did you fund all this at that point?

00:25:49.940 The co-founders or the developers?

00:25:51.560 No, the company.

00:25:52.440 Huh?

00:25:52.740 The company.

00:25:53.340 How did I fund it?

00:25:53.960 Well, I did a bunch of businesses back in Europe.

00:25:56.640 I think I arrived in the US with like 100,000 euros.

00:25:59.700 OK.

00:26:00.240 Still, it doesn't go forever.

00:26:01.900 You know, but I squeezed that money real good.

00:26:04.380 I squeezed that money real good.

00:26:05.860 So I mean, I didn't go out.

00:26:09.200 I didn't buy anything.

00:26:10.560 I was eating super frugally.

00:26:12.300 Then I quickly figured out that housing was unaffordable.

00:26:17.260 So I was like, all right.

00:26:18.420 But I do have some money.

00:26:20.220 So what I'll do is I'll rent this apartment.

00:26:23.180 There's like a tooth, and I'll sublease.

00:26:25.020 And I will sublease to people, only people from Europe,

00:26:28.080 Developers.

00:26:29.960 Founders and developers that were there

00:26:31.560 for like three, four months.

00:26:33.580 And so I went through a couple of cycles.

00:26:36.120 At the beginning, I tried to do it super fairly.

00:26:37.960 And then I was like, wait a second.

00:26:38.960 These people come and go, and I have

00:26:40.380 to deal with all the stress.

00:26:41.160 And I was raising the rent for these rooms

00:26:43.440 until my rent was like $300 a month.

00:26:46.680 Dude, that's smart.

00:26:47.800 And I mean, the developers that I was hiring,

00:26:51.120 I wasn't paying.

00:26:52.200 I was paying them as little as I could.

00:26:55.260 And then I did raise some money.

00:26:57.060 Are you ready for this?

00:26:58.820 I raised my, it took me two and a half years,

00:27:00.780 and I raised $50,000.

00:27:02.220 Whoa, one check?

00:27:03.500 $12,000 at a time.

00:27:04.800 Wow.

00:27:05.640 Oh my god, yeah, that was very, very painful.

00:27:08.160 Painful, wow.

00:27:09.600 And the other thing that I sometimes forget,

00:27:12.420 I must be suppressing this emotionally,

00:27:14.840 but I did towards the end.

00:27:16.620 So my $100,000 ran out, those $50,000 ran out.

00:27:19.520 And then I had a bunch of friends

00:27:20.880 that I had borrowed, that I had given money at the time,

00:27:23.000 where I had it like years ago.

00:27:25.120 And so I started borrowing money.

00:27:26.340 So I took like 5K USD from, I don't know, maybe five or six

00:27:31.960 people.

00:27:32.460 So I had another 25, 30K that I borrowed, personally.

00:27:36.060 That's how I did it.

00:27:37.160 That's nothing.

00:27:38.280 That's just, yeah.

00:27:39.100 Dude, that's such a cool story.

00:27:40.020 And then you move on, and that was the elastic sales.

00:27:43.520 That was elastic sales, yes.

00:27:45.100 And then from that, Close.io now, Close.com.

00:27:49.920 I saw your, I think you were talking or speaking at Intercom

00:27:52.780 recently doing a thing on Seven Deadly Sins of a Demo

00:27:57.400 or something like that.

00:27:59.860 How did that come to be?

00:28:01.000 What did they want?

00:28:02.500 I mean, obviously, you're known in the space

00:28:04.000 as one of the top thought leaders on sales and software

00:28:06.380 sales.

00:28:08.840 Do you do that a lot now?

00:28:11.160 Are they a customer of Clothes?

00:28:13.460 They're not a customer.

00:28:14.260 This is a company that we do have built kind of a,

00:28:17.480 and I've built a good relationship with.

00:28:20.340 And it just stemmed from the founders reading some content,

00:28:24.520 liking it.

00:28:25.500 Then their content is amazing, obviously.

00:28:27.720 So at some point, I think we'd reached out

00:28:29.260 and we were like, we want to collaborate on something

00:28:30.800 with you guys.

00:28:31.300 And they were like, we're excited.

00:28:32.100 We like you guys.

00:28:32.760 Let's do it.

00:28:33.600 So we did a bit of content.

00:28:35.520 Some of their sales leadership has been super supportive

00:28:39.440 and always been like, I'm reading your stuff.

00:28:41.340 I'm sending it to my team.

00:28:42.300 We're big fans.

00:28:43.080 And so any time I'm kind of around or close by the intercom

00:28:49.840 crew, they just invite me to things.

00:28:51.380 They just like come by, talk, you know.

00:28:55.860 So I think it's been just relationship building

00:28:58.140 over the years.

00:28:58.640 And what were those seven, like, do you remember,

00:29:00.260 kind of high level?

00:29:00.920 Yeah, so high level, it is you're giving too many demos.

00:29:04.340 So people don't qualify enough prior to giving the demo.

00:29:10.660 Your demos are way too long.

00:29:12.100 It's probably the biggest heartbreaker for me.

00:29:13.660 And where do you see this?

00:29:14.500 Where should a demo land at?

00:29:15.920 Especially, I guess, if they're qualified.

00:29:18.040 If they're qualified, it should be between 15 to 30 minutes.

00:29:21.340 Never 60.

00:29:22.280 Never ever 60.

00:29:23.140 60 minutes of demonstrating functionalities and features.

00:29:26.620 The only emotional place your prospect

00:29:28.640 can arrive at the end of that call is overwhelming.

00:29:31.600 Like, they can only feel overwhelmed.

00:29:33.040 They can't feel clarity and confidence.

00:29:35.280 So your demos are way too long.

00:29:40.360 A demo is not product training.

00:29:43.640 It's a sales tool.

00:29:45.020 People confuse it.

00:29:46.060 They think that now is the time for me

00:29:47.720 to turn you into a power user and teach you all the ins

00:29:51.040 and outs of our product.

00:29:51.860 That's not what it's for.

00:29:54.740 It's a sales tool.

00:29:56.020 You try to demonstrate value.

00:29:57.400 You're not trying to make somebody a proficient power

00:29:59.620 user of your tool.

00:30:00.600 They haven't bought even yet.

00:30:04.080 Focusing too much on features versus on value.

00:30:08.440 And also just doing things that are completely unnecessary.

00:30:11.320 Like I always make fun of people

00:30:12.920 that they click and they click on everything for no reason.

00:30:15.440 So you're on some editing page, and you're like,

00:30:17.640 this is the editor of whatever, our newsletter or software.

00:30:20.640 And so here, see, this is beautiful, it's simple,

00:30:23.080 it's great.

00:30:23.620 OK, I get it.

00:30:24.820 I see the page.

00:30:26.000 All right, fine, let's move on.

00:30:27.260 No, they have to type in, hello.

00:30:30.200 Yeah, they have to edit the form.

00:30:32.000 And then they bold something, as if I'd never

00:30:33.740 bolded something in my life.

00:30:34.860 And then they have to click Save.

00:30:37.000 And then we look at the spinity spin wheel spin,

00:30:39.260 and it's like two seconds, three.

00:30:40.820 Ah, now it's saved.

00:30:41.900 What are we doing with our lives?

00:30:43.300 Like, this is a total waste of time.

00:30:44.680 Just show me the editor, go, here's where you're editing.

00:30:46.420 It's super simple.

00:30:47.080 Let's move on.

00:30:47.860 If you want to say, this is the beautiful button,

00:30:49.600 you click it, and you say, you click save, it's safe.

00:30:51.560 You move on.

00:30:52.060 You don't have to click it.

00:30:52.900 Yeah, you don't have to click and wait.

00:30:53.900 You don't have to do it.

00:30:55.360 And then people typically don't highlight for attention.

00:31:00.740 So that is the fact that we think

00:31:04.540 that just because we talk, other people

00:31:06.000 give us their full attention and listen to everything we say,

00:31:08.380 which they don't.

00:31:09.440 So if there is an especially important part in your demo,

00:31:12.520 if there's something that you truly

00:31:13.900 believe they absolutely must see, highlight it.

00:31:16.440 Say, this is the most important part I'll show you.

00:31:19.720 Countdown, 23, 22, 21, and now show it to me.

00:31:23.680 Because especially if it's not an in-person demo where you

00:31:26.140 can observe their body language, everything that's going on.

00:31:29.340 If it's a virtual demo, which a lot of them are today,

00:31:32.080 you don't know what they're doing.

00:31:33.300 They might be on the phone.

00:31:34.120 They might be reading emails.

00:31:35.340 They may or may not be completely with you.

00:31:37.360 So you don't want them.

00:31:38.320 It's fine for them to miss some parts, but you don't want them.

00:31:40.140 That's the drop the mic moment.

00:31:42.580 Yes.

00:31:43.180 Yeah.

00:31:43.680 And then most demos don't have a close or have

00:31:46.960 a miserable close.

00:31:48.260 So crazy.

00:31:49.080 Oh my god.

00:31:49.860 What's your go-to transition for a close?

00:31:52.100 Like, how do you recommend people ask,

00:31:54.160 like, where do you want to go from here?

00:31:56.060 They say, this sounds great.

00:31:57.120 It's like, perfect.

00:31:57.700 Let's go into our account, update your card.

00:31:59.560 What is your mid-market SMB?

00:32:04.680 So I would say, first of all, you

00:32:06.840 need to know what is the next best step.

00:32:08.920 Then you need to ask yourself, can we

00:32:10.900 make that part of the demo?

00:32:12.300 So instead of ending the demo and then sending me an email

00:32:14.700 to take that next best step on my own,

00:32:16.780 can you just take it with me or for me right there and then?

00:32:20.240 You already got me.

00:32:21.800 I'll give you a simple example, like maybe converting them

00:32:24.700 instantly to giving you a credit card cannot be done.

00:32:27.520 I don't know.

00:32:28.320 You shouldn't attempt it.

00:32:29.340 But let's say there needs to be a follow-up call.

00:32:32.120 It drives me nuts.

00:32:33.340 Damn fast.

00:32:33.840 Schedule it right there.

00:32:35.980 Don't hang up and send me an email.

00:32:37.400 Just do it right then and then.

00:32:38.340 And then it's like, I sent it to you.

00:32:39.660 Open up your email.

00:32:40.700 Do you got to add it to your calendar?

00:32:42.200 so we're confirmed.

00:32:43.400 I like to do the restaurant bit where it's like,

00:32:45.960 hey, all I ask is that if something comes up

00:32:47.840 that you can't make it that day.

00:32:49.420 You know, it's just like all these ridiculous

00:32:52.140 like conversion increases if you do the simple things.

00:32:55.400 So your prescription is figure out

00:32:57.280 what the next step is in the process,

00:33:00.140 and if you can, try to do it at that moment.

00:33:03.380 But regardless, you want to get a commitment

00:33:05.440 on that call for that next step.

00:33:07.480 And then, like, this may-

00:33:09.880 And what if they say, hey, I want to do this,

00:33:13.500 but this looks good.

00:33:14.540 Send me a proposal, because that's

00:33:15.920 like everybody's go-to to essentially don't want

00:33:17.980 to talk to you.

00:33:18.480 And salespeople are like, oh, it's good.

00:33:19.980 Sure.

00:33:20.640 So if somebody, no matter what somebody tells me,

00:33:23.520 I'm trying to truly get to a real understanding

00:33:28.260 of what's going on.

00:33:28.800 I want to fill in as little blanks as possible.

00:33:31.120 And I think the biggest thing that people

00:33:33.000 make in selling in general is that they fill in a ton

00:33:35.380 of blanks themselves.

00:33:37.260 They're like, oh, they said send me a proposal.

00:33:40.100 I think by next week they'll buy.

00:33:41.600 Wait a second.

00:33:42.440 Nobody ever said by next week.

00:33:44.560 Nobody said next week.

00:33:45.760 Nobody said next week.

00:33:46.800 You made that up.

00:33:47.200 You made that up in your own mind.

00:33:48.620 Wow, and you add that to your sales page or whatever.

00:33:50.760 And you'll go back, and if a couple of days are gone,

00:33:53.600 you will believe you heard them say that, right?

00:33:56.620 Nobody ever said that.

00:33:57.900 Nobody even said they're going to buy.

00:33:59.720 They just said send me a proposal.

00:34:01.180 Everything else was made up in your own mind.

00:34:03.880 I don't like to make up things.

00:34:05.480 So you tell me, send me a proposal.

00:34:07.260 I'll say, happy to do so.

00:34:09.600 Let me ask you, how do you like the proposal to be sent?

00:34:12.700 What does it look like?

00:34:13.800 What do you do once you have it?

00:34:15.060 How many proposals do you typically request from vendors?

00:34:18.180 And what happens next?

00:34:19.560 I want to be educated.

00:34:20.760 What am I doing?

00:34:21.960 And what am I doing even?

00:34:24.000 What is the purpose of the proposal?

00:34:26.100 If my proposal competes with seven others,

00:34:28.680 it's a very different context than if you

00:34:31.080 need it for procurement or legal.

00:34:33.300 There could be so many different use cases

00:34:35.100 of what you're going to do with it.

00:34:36.500 I cannot just send you one thing

00:34:37.920 without knowing its purpose, right?

00:34:39.940 So I can design it to fulfill its purpose,

00:34:42.380 to succeed in its purpose.

00:34:44.400 And so I think that most people, they just,

00:34:48.200 they're so happy to get any signal

00:34:50.860 that could be interpreted as positive

00:34:53.060 that they take it around with it.

00:34:55.300 Why ruin this?

00:34:56.680 The person said proposal.

00:34:58.180 Why ruin this beautiful moment

00:34:59.960 by asking you more questions?

00:35:01.860 Well, you want to ruin that beautiful moment

00:35:03.620 because you don't know if it's a moment

00:35:05.520 And it's surely not beautiful because a proposal

00:35:08.100 in and of itself doesn't mean anything.

00:35:11.100 So is that number six on how to ask for the close?

00:35:13.980 That's the last point.

00:35:14.920 That was the last one.

00:35:15.540 That's the last point.

00:35:16.500 And when you work with sales teams in the past

00:35:20.500 or your own sales team, what kind of impact

00:35:24.600 do you see if you can just get them to do that, these elements?

00:35:29.520 Well, you find that all numbers go up.

00:35:33.280 Because if you only give demos to people

00:35:35.520 that are highly qualified, the use of your time

00:35:38.900 is going to go up, and your closing rate is going to go up.

00:35:41.280 Because if you're demoing, if you

00:35:44.080 do 50 out of 100 demos a week to design students in Australia

00:35:49.860 that are looking at software tools,

00:35:51.400 Yeah, they do have research projects.

00:35:53.000 It doesn't matter how good you are in selling

00:35:54.820 or how great your tool is.

00:35:55.800 These people cannot buy.

00:35:56.900 So why are you spending 50 hours of your week giving,

00:35:59.320 or whatever it is, giving demos to people that could never

00:36:02.260 buy, or should never buy, because it's not the right fit.

00:36:05.260 Or you take a demo that's going an hour and 15 down to 30.

00:36:08.580 Yes.

00:36:09.080 You're increasing your capacity.

00:36:10.320 You're doubling the amount of demos you can give,

00:36:13.200 or you're shortening the tempo.

00:36:14.700 Is that even true on an enterprise?

00:36:16.040 What would you do?

00:36:16.540 Just chunk it down?

00:36:17.500 You chunk it down.

00:36:18.220 Yeah.

00:36:18.500 You chunk it down.

00:36:20.220 Again, there's no scenario.

00:36:21.500 I love that.

00:36:21.920 There's nothing that's going to end up except for confusion

00:36:24.520 or overwhelm.

00:36:25.440 There's nobody can listen to another person demonstrating

00:36:29.080 features and functionalities in a product,

00:36:31.180 any product for 60 minutes straight,

00:36:33.800 and feel light, clear, confident, and ready to take action.

00:36:38.740 It's the right decision.

00:36:39.580 Nobody.

00:36:40.120 They're going to go, wow, I'm not sure if we're ready for that.

00:36:42.100 They're going to be like, wow, I got a lot of information.

00:36:45.000 I appreciate it.

00:36:46.040 I need to take time to digest this.

00:36:49.720 Which is not what the goal of your demo is not

00:36:52.560 let them overwhelm these poor souls so much that they feel

00:36:55.600 like, whoa, I need weeks to digest all this.

00:36:58.340 This is not going to get you closer to the outcome

00:37:01.100 that you want.

00:37:01.600 And then Close's core value prop, and it may have expanded,

00:37:05.600 but in the original days, it was the calling aspect of it.

00:37:09.680 Yeah, so communication and productivity

00:37:11.620 is still kind of a number one, the reason

00:37:13.700 why we win when we compete with other CRMs.

00:37:16.700 We started by innovating in some unique ways

00:37:19.080 that now a lot of companies have copied.

00:37:21.160 The first thing was that we were the first CRM

00:37:24.020 to have VoIP out of the box so you can make and receive

00:37:27.800 calls within the system.

00:37:29.380 Then we were the first ones to do two-way email syncs.

00:37:31.540 So you would just put in your email credentials.

00:37:33.640 You guys were the first ones to do that?

00:37:34.540 First ones to do that.

00:37:36.220 Like not long ago.

00:37:37.840 Well, 2013.

00:37:40.060 Wow.

00:37:40.620 Yeah.

00:37:41.280 And it was like historical.

00:37:43.100 So you would put it in.

00:37:43.940 So before that, you'd have to grab the emails and put it in.

00:37:45.820 You would have to forward emails.

00:37:47.060 OK, yes, the BCCs and stuff.

00:37:48.320 That was the best that they had, BCC or forward.

00:37:51.180 And for us, we would just automatically grab it.

00:37:53.440 We could also historically.

00:37:54.560 So you put in a lead and an email.

00:37:56.060 And boom, now all the emails that you

00:37:57.980 had back and forth historically were in our system.

00:38:01.540 And we were the first ones to do text messages right

00:38:03.800 out of the box in the CRM.

00:38:05.160 So reducing data entry.

00:38:06.440 Yes, and increasing productivity, right?

00:38:08.900 And we thought we were, I think, the first ones

00:38:10.740 to really think of a CRM as a communication tool,

00:38:13.340 not as a pure database.

00:38:14.600 Yeah, interesting.

00:38:16.300 And then the journey of growing that to now, I think,

00:38:18.440 30-some people all over the world.

00:38:21.080 And are you guys bootstrapped?

00:38:23.260 Yes and no.

00:38:23.960 So we're 40 people, 14 different countries.

00:38:25.980 40 people now, wow.

00:38:27.180 Close is self-funded and is customer-funded as a bootstrap,

00:38:31.800 but the company isn't.

00:38:34.140 And so what I mean by that is we went through Y Combinator.

00:38:37.680 We raised a seed round that was for a completely different

00:38:40.200 idea.

00:38:41.280 Then we spent half of that money for that idea

00:38:43.460 that didn't work out.

00:38:44.560 We pivoted to Elastic Sales.

00:38:47.200 We ran out of that money, and Elastic turned a profit.

00:38:50.180 And then we launched Close.

00:38:52.020 Got it.

00:38:52.800 Now, most of these investors that invested in us,

00:38:55.920 There was a convertible debt round.

00:38:59.080 Some of them converted.

00:38:59.980 Some of them haven't converted yet.

00:39:01.560 So we're kind of in this unique spot

00:39:03.840 where we did have some investors,

00:39:05.700 and we have some investors on the board.

00:39:07.360 But at the same time, the business was really bootstrapped.

00:39:10.620 And that's how we run it today.

00:39:11.880 OK, well, and I always thought it was bootstrapped.

00:39:13.840 But there's something on your website

00:39:14.880 that says, like, fully bootstrapped?

00:39:17.380 Or there's this really interesting language.

00:39:19.320 Yeah, I don't remember the specific language.

00:39:23.220 How did you decide to buy the dot com?

00:39:25.620 Because that's a, and have you been public on what it costs,

00:39:28.880 or?

00:39:29.620 Not been public on what it costs, but it's six figures.

00:39:33.660 But I mean, it's a one-word, closed.com.

00:39:35.500 Yeah, it's expensive.

00:39:36.440 Yeah.

00:39:37.060 Not as expensive as it could have been.

00:39:38.380 Oh, it's only six figures.

00:39:39.000 I thought it would have been seven.

00:39:40.300 The first time we tried to buy the domain was six years ago.

00:39:44.540 And at that point, the owner quoted us a seven-figure number.

00:39:50.560 And so he didn't have seven figures at that point.

00:39:53.100 So we're like, well, let's just stay friends

00:39:55.300 and see what happens.

00:39:56.560 So basically, once every quarter, I would check in on him.

00:40:01.540 At first, he was doing his own startup using that domain.

00:40:04.180 That didn't work out.

00:40:05.080 Then he was an investor in a startup

00:40:06.460 that had a similar name.

00:40:07.300 He was like, I'm probably going to give it to those guys.

00:40:09.820 That didn't work out.

00:40:10.800 And then he was just like, you know,

00:40:12.220 I would sell it to you because I don't have a use case for it

00:40:15.220 right now, but only for massive amount of money.

00:40:19.100 And so we kept saying, we want to buy it.

00:40:22.780 We can afford it for this price, but we'll

00:40:25.120 check-in again in three months, maybe you

00:40:26.740 want to have it, sell it for a different price,

00:40:28.740 or maybe we can afford it.

00:40:30.360 So I made sure that I just stayed up today.

00:40:33.040 Yes.

00:40:33.700 And the reason we wanted to buy it from the get-go,

00:40:36.280 mainly for two reasons.

00:40:37.100 One was branding.

00:40:37.880 We knew that at .io is communicating

00:40:40.280 that we're new, we're a startup.

00:40:41.820 That was totally cool in the first year,

00:40:43.780 first two years of the company's existence.

00:40:45.580 But as we scaled and grew as a business,

00:40:47.520 as we matured, our customers matured,

00:40:49.360 .io was not necessarily the signal we wanted to give.

00:40:53.500 It's like, this is brand new.

00:40:54.360 We're just getting started with a cool, small team.

00:40:57.300 Because that's not true.

00:40:59.020 So we wanted to have the branding impact of a dot com.

00:41:01.820 And you can't really trademark clothes as a name.

00:41:05.680 So we knew that it would be really bad

00:41:08.080 if a competitor bought it.

00:41:09.980 And we had some competitors that had played around

00:41:11.700 with using clothes in product names

00:41:14.100 to rank against us in search and all that.

00:41:16.900 So we're kind of wary of it.

00:41:19.720 And so a year and a half, like last year at some point,

00:41:25.240 we were very close to buying that domain, very, very close.

00:41:28.600 I mean, it was a final signature that was missing.

00:41:31.400 And I don't know what it was.

00:41:32.480 In the final moment, one of my two co-founders and I

00:41:35.600 decided, you know what?

00:41:37.060 It's been so many years we've been talking to the owner,

00:41:41.100 and now he's ready to sell, and he's

00:41:42.880 ready to sell for a much better price

00:41:44.220 than he originally told us.

00:41:46.240 Maybe we step back and we wait for a little bit longer.

00:41:48.400 He hasn't sold it in four years.

00:41:51.460 And he seems very motivated now.

00:41:54.380 Let's just step back and wait another three, four months.

00:41:56.500 Wow, that's ballsy, man.

00:41:57.380 Yeah.

00:41:58.540 And so we stepped back out of it.

00:42:01.420 Did you ask him if there was like a life event that

00:42:03.340 went on that got him to?

00:42:05.200 No, I don't think I asked at that time.

00:42:07.380 It's a good question, but I didn't.

00:42:09.900 And I think four months, five months later,

00:42:13.300 he approached us again.

00:42:15.640 As a sales guy, you know.

00:42:17.260 Yeah, and this is the first time that he emailed us.

00:42:19.820 I know.

00:42:20.440 Would you be like, oh my gosh, the feeling.

00:42:22.960 OK, now the tables have turned.

00:42:26.620 Oh, so good.

00:42:28.480 And he basically was like, hey, we were so close to a deal.

00:42:33.260 We'd love to make a deal happen.

00:42:34.740 At the same terms, we can make it happen.

00:42:36.620 And then we respond, same terms don't work for us anymore.

00:42:39.880 These are new terms.

00:42:41.200 We would be interested in exploring this further.

00:42:44.020 And so we went back and forth, and we ended up

00:42:47.380 buying the domain name at a much better price

00:42:50.680 than even we would have had bought it six months prior

00:42:53.560 or something.

00:42:54.740 And it's funny.

00:42:55.600 He was a good negotiator at the very tail end.

00:42:57.640 He did a sneaky thing.

00:42:58.760 This is a good thing to keep in mind.

00:43:00.740 And at the very end, where he sends us the final contract,

00:43:04.660 he added a bunch of stuff in there.

00:43:06.340 Like, he added, I think, about another 80k,

00:43:09.520 between the number we had agreed on,

00:43:11.940 And he added another four line items

00:43:14.460 that were $80K of additional cost.

00:43:17.100 And one of my co-founders, he lost his shit.

00:43:19.620 He's like, what is all this shit?

00:43:21.780 And so I ping him.

00:43:22.660 And I'm like, dude, we're having this huge fight.

00:43:24.420 Everybody's super upset.

00:43:25.540 How did these $80K sneak into this?

00:43:27.260 He's like, well, yeah, I talked to a bunch of other people.

00:43:29.760 Everybody told me the price is way too low.

00:43:31.920 And then they're all telling me, because we had an agreement

00:43:34.860 to pay over a long period of time and not do a one-time cash

00:43:37.980 payment, that I'm going to have all these extra costs,

00:43:40.800 and this guy, and that, and the other.

00:43:42.260 And I'm like, man, you should have known this

00:43:44.400 before we agreed to the deal.

00:43:46.580 Because this is a different number.

00:43:49.800 And my co-founder was really upset.

00:43:51.300 And so we went back and forth.

00:43:52.300 And he was negotiating hard for this.

00:43:54.300 And then he went down from 80 to 50.

00:43:56.400 And eventually, he was just like, just give me 10K more.

00:43:59.340 Something.

00:43:59.960 I just need to get something.

00:44:01.200 He needs to get something.

00:44:02.360 And then I felt like if I push him a little,

00:44:05.740 my co-founders were like, no, not a dollar more than what

00:44:09.420 we agreed on.

00:44:10.440 But I was like, you know what, I feel like we're getting

00:44:12.100 to the point where I push him so much that he-

00:44:15.040 You got to give something.

00:44:15.900 You got to give something.

00:44:16.920 But we'll do it in a different way

00:44:18.160 because you guys are really upset.

00:44:19.280 So I ping him and I go, all right, listen,

00:44:21.320 I had a huge fight with my co-founders.

00:44:23.020 They're really upset.

00:44:23.840 They really don't want to do this.

00:44:24.960 I kind of see your way, so here's what I'm going to do.

00:44:27.540 I'm going to pay you $5,000 out of my pocket.

00:44:30.320 $5,000, we're not going to tell anybody.

00:44:31.980 This is a separate thing.

00:44:33.360 The original deal stays intact, and then you've

00:44:35.100 got some money to pay for whatever imaginary expenses

00:44:37.860 that he came up with.

00:44:39.020 And then he was like, ah, right.

00:44:40.840 No, I don't want to take your money.

00:44:42.280 Just when you're in the area, like, let's have lunch.

00:44:44.700 Take me out for dinner or lunch.

00:44:46.160 Like, whatever.

00:44:46.740 Let's just close the deal.

00:44:48.860 But yeah, we wanted the domain to you.

00:44:52.780 Dude, it just sets the stand.

00:44:54.260 Like, I mean, you reach out.

00:44:55.460 It's close.com.

00:44:56.380 I mean.

00:44:56.880 Yeah, it's very different.

00:44:58.260 And I was surprised.

00:44:58.880 When we announced that we purchased the dot com,

00:45:02.600 a ton of people reached out and congratulated me

00:45:06.180 to things that I never announced.

00:45:08.060 So people were like, amazing.

00:45:10.220 Yeah, funding round and acquisition.

00:45:12.200 I can see that.

00:45:12.800 Funding round and acquisition all day long.

00:45:14.760 People were like, oh my god, congrats to the acquisition.

00:45:17.060 Which acquisition?

00:45:18.020 Well, didn't you sell the company?

00:45:19.960 I'm like, no.

00:45:21.140 There was no word about acquisition.

00:45:22.760 No word about funding, but people just assumed.

00:45:24.620 They filled in the blanks.

00:45:25.520 Something big happened.

00:45:26.520 They bought a very expensive domain.

00:45:28.420 They filled in the blanks.

00:45:29.580 So it was interesting to see kind of the perception

00:45:31.800 in the marketplace.

00:45:32.740 Interesting.

00:45:33.380 Yeah.

00:45:33.780 I mean, on that note, we see each other a lot

00:45:37.920 at events, so you're out there speaking, building your brand.

00:45:41.280 How have you, a lot of founders that

00:45:43.500 get the opportunity, they're always,

00:45:44.740 there's kind of two, I meet maybe

00:45:46.660 like two distinct founders, people in the gray zone

00:45:48.480 in the middle, but there's ones that are like heads down,

00:45:50.480 like why, they're just like, don't go out of your office,

00:45:53.160 say no to everything, focus on the product.

00:45:55.160 And then there's folks like yourself, myself,

00:45:57.600 and many others that realize our customers are there,

00:46:00.720 and if we get the opportunity, essentially it's

00:46:02.120 a group presentation sometimes, right, if we do it right.

00:46:05.820 How do you balance the travel, speaking,

00:46:09.600 and leading a successful SaaS product?

00:46:12.660 Yeah.

00:46:15.000 I'm still figuring it out, and I'm adjusting.

00:46:16.960 Like last year, I did too many talks.

00:46:19.160 So this year, I scaled down significantly.

00:46:21.480 But there's a couple of things that need to be considered.

00:46:25.200 I think people are not strategic about these things.

00:46:29.320 So first, it's easy for me to speak.

00:46:33.100 It's something that comes naturally to me.

00:46:34.760 It's something that needs almost no preparation.

00:46:36.880 I don't spend two, three weeks preparing a keynote.

00:46:39.860 I don't.

00:46:40.360 If I had to do that, I would not be speaking as much.

00:46:43.340 So I have certain talents and abilities

00:46:45.440 that allow me to do certain things really, really well.

00:46:48.560 And we see results, hence why we choose to do these things.

00:46:52.400 So for me, speaking comes very naturally.

00:46:54.680 Yeah, you're not stressed.

00:46:55.740 You're not not sleeping the night before.

00:46:57.040 I'm not not sleeping the night before.

00:46:58.780 I'm not even spending hours and hours on the deck.

00:47:02.460 I'm not.

00:47:03.480 So it's natural, it's easy, it's simple.

00:47:06.240 Then I try to only go to events where

00:47:08.760 I can answer the question, will there

00:47:11.100 be some potential future customers?

00:47:13.860 Are there some current customers there?

00:47:15.960 And could there be some people there

00:47:17.280 that we want to hire and work with?

00:47:19.280 If the answer is yes to all three,

00:47:20.560 then I'll consider the event.

00:47:22.060 I've been invited to lots and lots of cool sounding events

00:47:24.640 that I'm like, wait a second, I'm

00:47:26.200 going to go and speak at Adidas or Nike or something.

00:47:29.400 How is that going to help my, like, there's no buyers there.

00:47:31.920 There's no future employees there.

00:47:33.120 There's nobody there that could help my business.

00:47:36.720 So it might be fun, but I can't really justify it.

00:47:40.260 Yeah, you don't need a paid vacation right now.

00:47:41.700 Yes.

00:47:42.840 A flight in an hotel room is not that exciting anymore.

00:47:44.560 I know, people are like, hey, man, come to Singapore.

00:47:46.080 We'll cover all your expenses, and you come with your wife.

00:47:48.580 I'm like, I don't need you to pay for my vacation, man.

00:47:51.420 No, yeah.

00:47:52.320 And like on my vacation, I'd like to vacation.

00:47:54.420 Vacation.

00:47:54.920 I mean, that's the other thing.

00:47:56.100 Yes, I don't want to work for you.

00:47:58.320 So you've gotten better last year, too many.

00:48:01.020 this year, a little bit higher filter.

00:48:03.180 Yes.

00:48:03.960 And then I always try to squeeze as much out

00:48:06.720 of these events as possible.

00:48:07.860 So I will go to an event, and I'll ask myself,

00:48:11.340 can we do a customer meetup?

00:48:13.200 Are there certain customers that are going to be there

00:48:15.140 that I want to meet anyway, so I can just combine that.

00:48:18.840 Is there somebody that I've tried to hire?

00:48:21.820 This is at a time like this now, where there's somebody

00:48:24.960 I've been trying to hire for a long time.

00:48:26.940 If that person is around, that increases the likelihood

00:48:29.920 that I want to say yes.

00:48:30.920 OK, I'm going to go, and then I'm going

00:48:32.300 to have some dinner time, lunch time, coffee.

00:48:34.340 Do you look at the speaker list to see

00:48:35.540 if there's anybody that you want to connect with

00:48:37.140 from an industry point of view?

00:48:38.680 You know, that's never a factor that makes me say yes,

00:48:42.200 but it is a factor.

00:48:42.740 To competing options.

00:48:43.740 Yes.

00:48:44.480 It can be a filter.

00:48:46.040 And it's a signal to the quality of the event potential.

00:48:48.200 Yes.

00:48:48.740 Like, if I see that there are a lot of amazing speakers,

00:48:51.120 I'm like, all right, all these people are, you know,

00:48:53.360 they are typically thoughtful with their time.

00:48:55.080 If they say yes and I don't know the event, it will sway me.

00:48:57.740 It will influence me.

00:49:00.000 And so I try to combine things.

00:49:01.320 And then I also try to just batch things together.

00:49:05.400 So the last three weeks are a great example

00:49:07.560 where I will do, to the outside world,

00:49:11.780 it seems like I travel and speak a lot more than I do.

00:49:13.800 OK, you just compress it in that three weeks.

00:49:15.620 Yes, yes.

00:49:16.120 So I won't travel for three months.

00:49:18.960 And then I'll travel an insane amount for two weeks

00:49:20.940 and do a bunch of events, workshops, this, that,

00:49:23.160 and the other.

00:49:23.780 And then I'm off again not traveling for two months.

00:49:25.960 But to the outside world through social media,

00:49:27.600 it seems like I never, ever stop traveling.

00:49:29.760 but it's not as much.

00:49:30.600 Is that the cadence that you like,

00:49:31.860 kind of a two-week, two-month?

00:49:34.020 Because I used to do, when I was doing Clarity,

00:49:36.020 I used to do one week, seven weeks.

00:49:38.460 It's interesting.

00:49:39.160 I haven't answered that question to myself.

00:49:40.580 I don't even know.

00:49:41.760 I think now, without really thinking about it too deeply,

00:49:44.820 I do think I get, after two or three months,

00:49:49.380 I am ready to go and be with the people, right?

00:49:52.200 Be with the people.

00:49:53.120 Be with the people.

00:49:53.980 Because when I don't travel, I am people always surprised.

00:49:57.540 People that know me really well, they know this.

00:50:00.760 But new people that meet me and get to know me better,

00:50:03.040 they're always surprised that when at home,

00:50:05.920 I'm actually not that social.

00:50:08.060 I spend time with my kids' wife.

00:50:10.260 And I don't go to events.

00:50:11.700 I don't go to meet-ups.

00:50:12.500 I don't do dinners, don't do lunches.

00:50:13.800 I meet very few people.

00:50:15.420 I'm just really just work, family,

00:50:19.240 and then I just want to have to, I either want to be alone

00:50:21.620 or I want to be in front of 10,000 people.

00:50:24.040 Those are the two spaces I'm comfortable.

00:50:25.880 So after two or three months, I'm like,

00:50:28.040 I'm ready to go out there.

00:50:30.540 But I think a maximum of like, a week is always nice.

00:50:33.620 Like, a week of travel is great.

00:50:35.780 Two weeks is usually like, OK, towards the end of the two

00:50:38.180 weeks, I'm like, this was good, but now I'm ready.

00:50:40.520 And three weeks is too long.

00:50:42.480 Three weeks is what I'm doing now.

00:50:43.880 I'm telling you the next couple of days,

00:50:45.420 I'm going to be like, I'm going to really

00:50:47.320 have to control my inner voice that's

00:50:49.060 complaining all day long that it's too much.

00:50:51.300 As you look back over the, since starting close,

00:50:55.040 I know my journey, if I look back even a decade to who I needed to become to be the person today,

00:51:01.200 when you look at your journey, what are the things or who did you need to become to lead this company?

00:51:06.500 Yeah, I think the biggest transformation that I went through was becoming consistent.

00:51:12.300 That was something that was completely lacking.

00:51:15.000 Discipline and consistency was completely lacking in my life up until close, really, like a year before close or so.

00:51:23.640 because I always had this thing

00:51:27.240 where I would have these amazing weeks

00:51:29.120 where I would just pull things out of a hat

00:51:31.780 and make magic happen

00:51:32.720 and do things that would surprise myself

00:51:34.680 and delight myself.

00:51:35.540 How did I do this?

00:51:36.500 How did I come up with this?

00:51:37.840 And I create all this value

00:51:39.420 and I create impressive moments.

00:51:42.260 But then they would inevitably follow phases of like,

00:51:47.000 I don't know even how to call it,

00:51:48.440 but it would be just like a week or two

00:51:49.920 of not getting anything done.

00:51:51.640 And I would have these,

00:51:52.460 I'm very grumpy in the morning.

00:51:53.640 I'm not a morning person.

00:51:55.480 And so I would take that morning grumpiness

00:51:58.460 and allow it to influence me into canceling my first meeting

00:52:01.520 or call.

00:52:02.660 And then that would spiral out of control

00:52:04.360 into canceling all my meetings and calls for a day.

00:52:06.700 And then I would feel so terrible about that day

00:52:09.200 that I would cancel everything the next day.

00:52:11.520 I would these terrible, terrible phases of just

00:52:15.240 being totally unreliable.

00:52:16.840 And ups and downs.

00:52:17.960 And I went to a million workshops.

00:52:20.140 I read all the books.

00:52:20.880 I was like, how do I unbreak my brain?

00:52:23.880 And I think my desire was to,

00:52:25.540 like, how can I not feel this way?

00:52:27.340 Like, how can I just always be in a great state,

00:52:30.160 in a state where I can make magic happen,

00:52:31.740 in a state where I control, that I have confidence,

00:52:33.780 that I can get things done, that I'm productive?

00:52:35.960 Why am I so up and down in my emotional states?

00:52:38.580 How can I, like, get rid of that?

00:52:39.820 And I was never able to, like, fully take control over it.

00:52:43.980 And then one day I heard this quote.

00:52:45.780 I don't know why or what led up to hearing that quote

00:52:50.280 in such a different way that moment

00:52:51.720 because I heard it before.

00:52:53.480 But I heard the quote of like

00:52:54.800 the difference between the hero and the coward.

00:52:57.680 It's not that the hero isn't afraid and the coward is.

00:53:00.360 It's that the hero, she acts despite her fear

00:53:02.740 versus the coward is held back by it.

00:53:04.680 And I heard that and something clicked in me

00:53:06.900 and I went, wait a second.

00:53:08.500 I don't have to feel like doing the call

00:53:11.840 or taking the meeting.

00:53:13.600 I can do things while not feeling like them.

00:53:16.440 I can do it despite feeling whatever the way I feel.

00:53:19.840 And then I developed this internal mantra where anytime I was like, ah, I really don't want to do this.

00:53:24.280 I'd go like, ah, just do it anyways.

00:53:27.780 Who cares?

00:53:28.820 Well, but I'm going to do a really bad job and I'm going to feel terrible.

00:53:31.820 Do it feeling terrible.

00:53:33.620 Do it feeling terrible.

00:53:35.340 And I start doing things feeling terrible.

00:53:37.240 And then I felt great because I did them.

00:53:39.900 And my emotions were not running my life.

00:53:42.040 I was running my emotions.

00:53:43.860 And these bad moments in the morning were turned into my best days.

00:53:47.440 And that really, that thing, that switch transformed my life completely.

00:53:52.000 And it's the only reason why I'm able to run the business I run today and have the impact I have today.

00:53:57.180 Something I was never able to do before.

00:53:59.460 I did well.

00:54:01.060 To the outside world, still people felt I did well.

00:54:04.520 But I was so in an inner war with myself and turmoil.

00:54:09.200 Because I could never look in the mirror and be like, I'm doing my best.

00:54:11.700 I would always look in the mirror and go, I knew I'm not doing my best.

00:54:15.340 and I can't keep the word to myself or to others.

00:54:18.960 I'm going to have to feel like keeping my word.

00:54:21.900 And that switch changed everything.

00:54:25.060 Just literally everything I was able to do

00:54:27.120 since that changed in my life was day and night.

00:54:30.720 So that kind of was the most impactful change

00:54:32.480 I had to go through to be able to run Close.

00:54:35.020 That's huge, man.

00:54:35.900 Where do people find you online?

00:54:37.200 What's the best channel that you like to communicate?

00:54:39.360 Yeah, so people can always reach out to me directly,

00:54:41.460 steli.close.com, at Steli on Twitter.

00:54:44.560 Instagram.

00:54:45.340 Instagram, Steli Efti, I think.

00:54:48.440 And then if you like podcasts and you haven't listened

00:54:51.580 to The Startup Chat, go to thestartupchat.com.

00:54:53.840 You can find the feed there and subscribe to it

00:54:56.020 and listen to me twice a week.

00:54:57.980 Dude, I just want to let you know how much I appreciate

00:55:01.060 the fact that you've shared so much over the years,

00:55:03.580 everything you've learned, not only with Heaton,

00:55:05.620 but even with the YouTube videos.

00:55:07.300 I mean, you've taught a lot of non-sales-oriented founders

00:55:11.780 to sell in a way that's not schemey.

00:55:14.100 And I think it's a rarity, you know,

00:55:16.940 even though we see a lot of these creators,

00:55:19.000 the fact that you've been doing it so long and consistently

00:55:21.560 is a huge, it's incredible.

00:55:23.980 So thank you so much for that.

00:55:25.220 Thank you.

00:55:25.860 Appreciate you, man.

00:55:26.480 My man.

00:55:27.480 Thanks for watching this episode of Escape Velocity.

00:55:30.600 Be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment

00:55:33.480 with your biggest insight from our conversation.

00:55:36.100 Be sure to check out the next episode.

Dan Martell - June 18, 2020

Mistakes To Avoid on Product Demos with Steli @ Close.com - Escape Velocity Show #30

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